EPTAlso nestea streams?
[D]Nestea's Anti-Immortal/Sentry all-in build - Page 6
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
Also nestea streams? | ||
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-HypeR-
United States39 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
High master eu. It actually works pretty well. No roaches Also nestea streams? rarely. I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage. I think the best to deal with the timing is 1. To completely out macro the toss with pure roach ling 2. counter their nat with roach ling. I feel these 2 options are better because if your opponent isn't doing the exact immortal all in u might be introuble trying to use muta ling to defend agasint some heavy early gate timings. That is why i think the roaches are better because it defends about every all in and you don't have to try and hard counter it. Although the muta route is very strong agasint this 2 base timing push. what? Can you give some evidence to what you are saying? What are you saying exactly anyways? And you aren't using muta/ling to defend, you are using muta/ling to base trade if toss pushes out with immortal/sentry, and mutas just about always beat 2 base Toss in a base trade if you can get a good number out in time (ie 13+ when he pushes out). I don't think you understand the discussion at hand here. | ||
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-HypeR-
United States39 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 29 2012 11:01 Belial88 wrote: rarely. I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage. Single stargate doesn't seem like a good counter, double stargate I can see but single stargate unless he is blindly making 6 phoenix by the time your spire finishes you should be fine as you should be able to make 10+ mutalisks instantly. But in general you need to be scouting and I do think you need a roach warren if you think he's doing some sort of gateway pressure or you need to make lings at certain parts. This build isn't something you would want to do vs the same guy every game as, like every other build there are weaknesses that they can exploit if you do the same build and that's it. | ||
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DarKcS
Australia1237 Posts
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Shibbxyz
United Kingdom94 Posts
If you see the early gas then you can go for mutalisks and aim for a base trade, or go infesters and kill sentries while tech'ing to hive and going for ultras first Fast upgrades on lings is strong at counter attacking, roaches are cheap but become useless against good force fields and well defended thirds. Mutas are great for base trade but if you are hit with blink stalkers or they were going HT you can't do much. Infestors open Hive tech option and allow defense play and as soon as ultras hit you can crush a protoss deathball and take all the bases while teching to Broodlords. The ling upgrades with fast Ultras so strong, make banelings as well to kill zealots and sentries instantly. Infestors holds there army in place, and make queens to keep ultras alive so you can spend all gas on broodlords then you win. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
And someone going HT on 2 base isn't that great against mutas, they will have no stalkers support and you just avoid the storms. Infestors aren't really a good choice against a 2 base toss unless he goes double stargate (and in that case, it's one of really 3 options that are viable), and as a standard, you should never get infestors against an all-inning toss (maybe this build might change that, but I don't know, no one does, because this build is really new, and only been done with mutas). Even if you did this build, i seriously, seriously, doubt that you could ever get infestors + enough army to hold any type of all-in, especially immortal/sentry. And fast ultras are never used in high level zvp. I'm not sure what you are commenting on or what post you are even addressing. You don't open with upgraded lings at all either, that's the whole point of this build, you SKIP upgrades and roaches in favor of super fast mutas. You get 'fast ups' and you completely defeat the purpose of this build, to get super fast mutas out. I don't think you understand the conversation here, and I have no clue what you are talking about because none of it makes any sense to me (fast ultras in zvp? a high level protoss opening HT lol that's like opening ravens on 1 base? roaches as useless against immortal/sentry? banelings to counter sentries?). | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I don't do nestea's build or anything, but what I do, is as soon as I notice he's going robo, I go for mutas and start massing lings. I don't make more drones or be greedier, I stop droning at the typical 8:30, but I go spire and grab 5th and 6th gas on my 3rd base (when normally you don't because of needing roach/ling so desperately). Maybe NrGMonk is right that a 'good' toss will hit you at 11:30, but you know, on large maps like daybreak, they have to push out with it, you can't warp in immortals, and you use your lings to maybe force him back, and you can make spines at your third (where he'll likely attack first, but whatever) to delay him. He may be killing a base before mutas are out, but he won't have killed all your bases. The idea is just build that spire asap, and get that gas asap, it's okay if he's killed a base because you have your mutas before he kills more than 1 base. And then your 15 mutas and hundred lings stream in and win the base trade. Here's a game where I do it. I do the normal ZvP build, roach warren, evo, and +1 and all, nothing different, but I cancel roach upgrades and +1 as soon as I know it's immortal/sentry. If he's going 5 gate immortal macro for quick third, well, the mutas will wreck havoc, and if he's going all-in, yea he'll be killing a base when they pop, but I'll kill his before he kills mine, especially with the many lings. http://drop.sc/190522 I'm going to start doing this against immortal/sentry, because seriously, fuck making roach/ling and desperately trying to hold every time even when you know it's coming. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On May 29 2012 14:26 blade55555 wrote: Single stargate doesn't seem like a good counter, double stargate I can see but single stargate unless he is blindly making 6 phoenix by the time your spire finishes you should be fine as you should be able to make 10+ mutalisks instantly. But in general you need to be scouting and I do think you need a roach warren if you think he's doing some sort of gateway pressure or you need to make lings at certain parts. This build isn't something you would want to do vs the same guy every game as, like every other build there are weaknesses that they can exploit if you do the same build and that's it. The thing is, if you also scout with your phoenixes - which you absolutely should - then you can proceed chronoboosting them out and be fine. I've seen players occasionally even add a 2nd stargate right away and take a quick third with only 1-2 cannons and zealots against the lings. Zerg will have zero roaches to pressure you, which makes it viable. Therefore yes, zerg has to be sure that it's no stargate opener. | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
Ive got a few questions to clarify since Protoss 2 base timings have been absolutely wrecking my shit lately. 1. What time would you start to take your 2/3/4 gas? 2. What do you do with your drones minibg gas after the first 100 gas? Keep them on and tech lair on next 100? Or pull off and drone hard? 3. Is the whole basis of this build to basically base trade if this build is coming and mass spines at nat? 4. At approximatey what time does Ps push hit Zergs base? 10 minutes. 4b. In this case how early would you need to tech to lair in addition to the spire+muta build time? 5. I have a big problem with +1 zealot pressure at my 3rd early on. Am i supposed to be using my speedlings in this case to overwhelm his first few zealots traveling across the map in addition to preventing him from throwing down any proxy pylons? Sorry if some of the answers to these questions are basic and well known... Im only low masters and ive been out of the game for a minute due to diablo 3. I also apologize is these are answered in the replay. Im at work right now so i cant view them. Posting from phone. | ||
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
On June 05 2012 02:00 sagefreke wrote: So if im reading this right, the way to beat sentry/immortal all in (Nesteas way) is to take early gas for ling speed and go mutas if you see gas at Ps nat? Ive got a few questions to clarify since Protoss 2 base timings have been absolutely wrecking my shit lately. 1. What time would you start to take your 2/3/4 gas? 2. What do you do with your drones minibg gas after the first 100 gas? Keep them on and tech lair on next 100? Or pull off and drone hard? 3. Is the whole basis of this build to basically base trade if this build is coming and mass spines at nat? 4. At approximatey what time does Ps push hit Zergs base? 10 minutes. 4b. In this case how early would you need to tech to lair in addition to the spire+muta build time? 5. I have a big problem with +1 zealot pressure at my 3rd early on. Am i supposed to be using my speedlings in this case to overwhelm his first few zealots traveling across the map in addition to preventing him from throwing down any proxy pylons? Sorry if some of the answers to these questions are basic and well known... Im only low masters and ive been out of the game for a minute due to diablo 3. I also apologize is these are answered in the replay. Im at work right now so i cant view them. Posting from phone. If you scout a +1 zealot pressure incoming, you'll need to drop gas a bit earlier and get a roach warren. Not too confident that spine/ling would defend it very well. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
7:30 3xgas 8:00. 5th and 6th gas. Please, read the thread and watch the vods before posting basic questions that could easily be figured out by watching the vods and reading previous posts thhat answered these basic questions 10 times now, and move the discussion to application. If toss has no gas, get that 630 warren and 2nd gas and prepare to get a huge lead by holding a no tech timing. Immortal/sentry pushes at about 1030 and hits a minute later. You can read my zvpp guide for help to your general zvp issues., | ||
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sagefreke
United States241 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Haustka
United States221 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
When iphone makes an app that lets me view vods for free ill take advantage of it. Until then i dont need to read posts from people who pretend to be mods. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67537 The first game is free. If you don't want to bother reading previous posts, or even the OP which clearly addressed everything you asked, maybe you shouldn't be here. edit: do you really need to know when to take your 4th,5th,6th gas when your at work on your iphone? Wouldn't you really just need to know that maybe when you are at a pc capable of playing? And there IS a GSL app on the iphone, that lets you view the vods for free. Or you can go to the website, you should be able to view them even on 3G connection. Seriously, what are you doing. Your questions are either all answered completely in the OP, not to mention in the thread, and you post specific, build order related questions that would be answered immediately if you watched the video, and it's not like you need to know the answer to these questions until you got to a PC capable of playing SC2 (which would be able to play vods). Being on a phone doesn't mean you can just ignore the forum rules and make terrible posts or be a jerk. Doesnt take a mod to figure that out, and holy shit it's annoying to answer the same question 10 times already. Literally, I've answered it 10 times already in this thread. I would like this discussion to move forward to application, to maybe if Nestea will do this again in his up-coming games. Not shit that could be figured out on your own, I have never seen nestea try this build against 4 gate +1, but it's common sense he would make a roach warren at 6:30 if he saw no gas taken at the Toss natural. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Game 3 Inori vs Moon Moon goes gas at 4:45, no roach warren, and deals with a 4 gate +1. He sees no gas and the signs of the push with the 1 zealot/2 stalkers, so he masses speedlings. It delays his spire, but Toss is behind even further, and is unable to deal with the 'quick' spire given the positions both were in due to the 4 gate +1 pressure (and fast third of Toss). | ||
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ImNightmare
1575 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
If you mass lings from 8:30, you should have a large enough army to delay his push, and even if you don't, wreck enough damage with just your lings in a base trade scenario, that it's fine your 15 mutas are popping when he's killed your third. i mean that's how it's played out for me so far, and seems to be how nestea handled it. it has hard to tell if toss is all-inning with it or not. id love to see reps where it worked and didn't work though. | ||
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