EPT[D]Nestea's Anti-Immortal/Sentry all-in build - Page 4
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TheRealFluid
United States501 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On May 23 2012 01:55 Notfragile wrote: Awesome post, Belial! While I've been improving dramatically in my ZvP, I am being totally annihilated by the infamous 2 immortal/prism/sentry push. While I know I die due to my macro not being good enough (55-60 supply at 8:00) I see top zergs around the world being raped by that same push (as the zerg's skill/macro level increases, so the execution of the all-in becomes better). So I am caught in the mentality of "if I improve my macro to the point I kill consistently protosses of my level, protosses of the next level will still kick my ass with the exact same build". Since this happens to every Z around there we've had the complaints in the DRG-Nestea tweets. So I see this build as an extremelly refreshing change in pace, actually giving a strategic alternative instead of a tactical/build execution one. And to be honest, I would have never paid enough attention to Nestea's strategical decisions if it weren't for that thread of yours! I am definately going to work on this but I would like to ask you a question: What happens if the toss goes for a 2base blink stalker/immortal +2 attack all-in and he moves out at 160+ supply? If I recall corectly, that could happen at 13-14min. You would have commited to mutalisks too hard to be able to go infestor/roach/spine to hold it, while it seems to me that in a base trade vs a push like that would go like: -160 supply toss army can kill a 200/200 zerg that is not massing spines WITH infestor and +2 attack roach. -Toss warp-ins will only happen in his main, therefore not reinforcing his already unstoppable army and spending all minerals on stalker/cannon to hold the base trade. +2blink stalkers can kill a large muta/ling force if battle happens in tight areas with cannons (aka a base of a toss who is prepared for the base trade). Should the zerg try to hold the front with spine/muta/ling? Should he rush for infestor if he sees blink upgrading from 2base while planting spines? Help me, I lose every time a toss turtles in 2base and masses stalker/immortal T_T No matter how many cannons you make, you won't be able to hold a full on base trade vs muta ling. Waiting for 160 supply seems to be the worst thing you can do as toss. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
I think a first step to "answering" this as Toss is a faster robo, I mean, obs build time is decreased anyway. Fast obs scouting for a RW or fast Lair/gases, but then I wonder how this affects the timing of the third. You generally want a faster third because of the stephano style roaches, but can you afford fast obs, fast third, and then get a reactionary blink in case of mutas? You'd need a good sim city as well... hmm. But at the same time, even a fast obs can be avoided, if you proxy the spire the way Nestea did. Nestea, so smart. Potentially changing the meta again! | ||
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Notfragile
Greece713 Posts
On May 23 2012 05:56 NrGmonk wrote: No matter how many cannons you make, you won't be able to hold a full on base trade vs muta ling. Waiting for 160 supply seems to be the worst thing you can do as toss. Yes, yes... it's just that I feel really uncomfortable when the immortal/stalker ball starts growing. So, you'd suggest preparing better for the base trade while the toss gives that time window. Maxing on ling/muta, getting some upgrades, grabbing scattered expos and perhaps making some tech buildings (spire/pool) here and there. And of course massing spines. I guess I'll get the feel for the base trades, just recently I've been starting to stray from roach and try muta, so there still is a weird feeling knowing you cannot possibly beat his army head on... Thanks for the reply! | ||
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Catatafish
75 Posts
One thing I've been wondering: Why don't more protosses skip taking one of the gasses in their main and take the one in the natural instead, in order to confuse the zerg, who relies on the gas timings at the natural? Often you see zergs only scouting the natural gasses, assuming the two in the main have already been taken. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On May 23 2012 07:16 Catatafish wrote: Great post, I found these games extremely interesting as well. I've beaten the all-in by baseracing with roaches before, and doing it with ling/muta seems so much better. One thing I've been wondering: Why don't more protosses skip taking one of the gasses in their main and take the one in the natural instead, in order to confuse the zerg, who relies on the gas timings at the natural? Often you see zergs only scouting the natural gasses, assuming the two in the main have already been taken. I've seen more Tosses start doing this as of late in low masters. A Zerg from NrG also did it to me in ZvZ, completely had me fooled. I thought he was going muta, but he never took gas in his main, and steam rolled me with roaches while I had set up spore defense. This is one of the reasons a lot of Tosses were angry at OL speed buff, because you couldn't trick the Zerg with your gas count since quite a few Zergs just use that 1 OL in the nat and don't sac one into the main. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Thanks for the kind words, I'm pming you a long response answering your post. Basically, a toss turtling on 2 base is an idiot. I think you are just struggling with your level of play, which is fine, I did too. If Toss doesn't go for his third, or kill you before about 12:00 with a timing, then you are WAY ahead. Going fast third vs Toss, if Toss doesn't get a third in reasonable time, or do damage in the timing where zerg has lots of drones but not enough tech or army out yet, then he was way behind. You are clearly having a problem realizing an advantage. You can check out the section in my zvp guide called "How to not lose to Ridiculous crap", it addresses this. Also, read the ETA concept guide. You can go mutas - eventually Toss will lose because you will have 30+ mutas to his ~160 army, and you will easily win any base trade. If he doesn't move out, you constantly snipe of his nexuses in a second with 30+ mutas until he's dead (if you want to be super safe, and he's being an asshole and not leaving, and you know you'd autowin the base trade scenario, just tech up to bl/infestor, he's never going to move out because 2 base toss can never beat 3+ base mutas in a base trade). You can mass roaches, overrun him. He'll die. If you are on top of your macro, upgrades, injects, and get burrow move, no way he can beat your 200/200 roach army right outside his base, when he pushes out, because you are camping out front, and then the 200/200 roach army you remade when he arrives to your base. Also, on a side note, don't get infestors against a 2base toss. that's probably why you are losing. you are teching too hard. Infestors are very cost inefficient. They are supply efficient, that's their virtue. The 200/200 supply cap is not an issue against 2 base toss. Also, you'll die while trying to tech that hard. Oh, check my zvp guide. I added a new replay recently on how to base trade with mutas in zvp. Someone does exactly what you are talking about - turtles on 2 base with some robo death army that would beat roaches. The game came down him killing all my bases, me killing all his bases, and then him with like 20 stalkers surronding a pylon. 20 stalkers can't kill 30 mutas before they snipe a pylon in 2 shots, and he can't kill the hatcheries i have all around the map because then his pylon is unprotected (and if he sends just parts of his army, i send the mutas to kill them). You'll see. It's a good rep on answering your question about base tradin | ||
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Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
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Catatafish
75 Posts
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kmh
Finland351 Posts
On May 23 2012 21:35 Wingblade wrote: As a Protoss player, isn't this beatable with good scouting? Getting a hallucinated Phoenix out to scout the tech everywhere, even if he tries to hide it, wouldn't that just shut this down. If I scout mega fast spire it would be simple to drop double star and get ready for a Templar transition right. It seems like this whole idea relies on a lack of Protoss scouting See above for why 2stargate is a bad idea. Zerg can simply mix in corruptors and be in fantastic shape. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
 ), holding all ins, etc. Gotta love that nestea :D | ||
TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
On May 24 2012 03:44 blade55555 wrote: Watched those games, stole his build, reaping the profits. It's nice, this build is great vs that stupid ass immortal build lol. Did 5 games with a teamate to make sure I had all the timings down, transitions (since you normally won't be able to kill the toss so fast ), holding all ins, etc. Gotta love that nestea :D Any chance you could fire the reps up blade? | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 24 2012 04:12 TheMooseHeed wrote: Any chance you could fire the reps up blade? http://www.mediafire.com/?rwbjoq7l63o488f There is 3, for the most part accurate, first gas should be at 4:45. Sometimes muscle memory makes me forget so I get it 10 seconds late in one of those I believe. In general that's how I am doing it :D | ||
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Korinai
Canada413 Posts
On May 21 2012 20:29 KrakInDub wrote: Something doesn't make sense to me ~~ "I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate." Toss get ALWAYS Gas, like every race, doesn't matter if he goes for Gate or Stargate play, but isn't gas a must anyways? So could you explain me please what do you mean exactly by this? He's talking about the natural gas. If you position an overlord over the tosses natural gas, you can easily tell what type of build they're going for. No gas at the natural means they're doing some big gateway attack soon, and you'll need a roach warren to defend. One/Two gas at the natural means something tech-ish. Stargate, blink all in, wtfdtslol, etc. | ||
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TheMooseHeed
United Kingdom535 Posts
On May 24 2012 04:32 blade55555 wrote: http://www.mediafire.com/?rwbjoq7l63o488f There is 3, for the most part accurate, first gas should be at 4:45. Sometimes muscle memory makes me forget so I get it 10 seconds late in one of those I believe. In general that's how I am doing it :D Thanks alot! | ||
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BoZiffer
United States1841 Posts
Have you been playing this build against toss in general or specifically against what you think is a immo/sentry all-in? Just curious to see if its a niche build or maybe a more general build. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
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oOOoOphidian
United States1402 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 24 2012 11:17 BoZiffer wrote: @Blade(lots of 5's) Have you been playing this build against toss in general or specifically against what you think is a immo/sentry all-in? Just curious to see if its a niche build or maybe a more general build. I think if you see an all in gateway timing incoming or whatever you should get a roach warren OR you can be super intense base trade. It's really up to you. I would say a roach warren is needed if he isn't doing any sort of tech. If he has a twilight and then a bunch of gateways I would definitely get a roach warren, if you don't think it'll finish in time make some spines. had a fun base trade vs a toss today who did that immortal all in on cloud kingdom, muta/ling took out main + natural of his and everything, had I think 15 spines or something crazy all finished when he got to my natural and i was able to hold and thus won the game. But this build isn't bad at all, actually I really like it this build on how nestea does it you don't have to go mutalisks. If you want you can go infestors but I don't like it vs that immortal push personally .Really liking the build and glad I saw those games  | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
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