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On May 24 2012 13:34 jeeneeus wrote:
It would be really crazy if a protoss, after watching these games gets the really fast two gas at his natural. Then he pulls the probes out of his main's gases and mines only at the natural's gases. Then he does a gateway all in. It would delay the push by like a whole minute, but if Nestea is completely skipping the roach warren, it could be an easy win.
Well it really depends on scouting though. Maps like Cloud kingdom,korhal,daybreak, etc. you can have a nice OL placement
where you can check his gas timings on his natural and whether he is mining or not.
Personally, i would always sac at OL at the 6.50-7.00 mark to check his main base and his gas. Then, you can determine
whether or not to throw down your roach warren.Plus, with the OL 25% speed increase you can get even more scout on their base a bit longer.
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edit: hm weird i thought i was replying to a post where someone said they were scared of someone going 6/7/8 gate all-in with 32 probes. Must have been in a different thread lol. Anyways oh well... ill pretend.
what if they do a 6/7/8 gate all-in?
You see no gas at the natural, so you know it's either a all-innish play. It's either 4 gate +1, which is semi-all-innish and puts toss really far behind if it fails, or it's a 6/7/8 gate all-in and it's completely all-in and if you survive you win.
I was a little late in scouting it (or rather, reacting to it), so I put down a 7:00 roach warren, although I should have put it down at 6:30. I made a bunch of speedlings, since I had speed ready, to deny any pylon and initial units, and put a spine down at where I figured he would attack first, my third. These speedlings and the spine would buy me 30 seconds so I could get roaches in time.
However, he did a 6/7/8 gate all-in - to which you don't need a particularly fast roach warren, you just need it around standard timing (which I did). I overwhelmed it because instead of making a lair and roach speed like you do in a normal game, I made roaches and lings because I knew some sort of plain gateway attack was coming.
I easily crushed his push. He kind of outplayed me with a pylon in my main and multi-pronged attacks, but it didn't matter, I was so far ahead for simply not dying (not only did I not die, i lose no hatcheries, and less than 5 drones!). He tried to get blink and tried to set up for his third, but I had total map control so anytime he sent out a probe, it died. Eventually he got blink, and I totally forgot to get roach speed, so he was able to get map control for a fraction of a second, but once I got my roach speed, he was dead.
Would it have been easier to hold if I made a normal gas timing around 6:00 instead of 4:45 (right when you take your third, wow, dont forget that, I kept forgetting it when I was playing practice games to test out the build before going on ladder)? Well, maybe, because you are probably 3-5 drones behind for getting that quick ling speed. But, it's arguable that it's actually easier to hold to when doing nestea's build, because you got such a fast ling speed, which you forever deny his initial pylons and first units.
There's 2 part to nestea's build, and they sort of flow with eachother:
1. Instead of getting 2 gas at 6:00, you get 1 gas at 4:45, and then 3 more at 6:30. This results in quicker ling speed, but more economy since you aren't getting a roach warren (unless you scout no gas, in which case you need roaches, which you get reactively when seeing no gas at 6:30, but you can handle early aggression easier with the quick speed)
2. Because you skipped roaches and roach tech, you can get mutas super fast.
By getting quick ling speed, you don't need roaches if toss goes gasless. By getting no roaches, you can get mutas super fast and use lots and lots of lings in the early mid-game to hold any sort of aggression a Toss could do if he got gas.
Here's the replay:
http://drop.sc/185670
the only thing that's questionable about this build, is if they do a 9:30 blink all-in. I imagine you get a reactive roach warren if that was the case, but being so heavy on lings, you should be okay against it, you just mass lings after 8:30 and then get roaches if you notice it's an all-in. I somewhat suspect that even if they did a blink all-in, you could progress as normal with this build and just base trade as if it was an immortal/sentry all-in.
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I watched the GSL match vs JYP and it seems he gases at 4:45 then adds on 5 at 7:30 to 7:45. Are these wrong or was he delaying them because of stargate into robo?
What are others gas timings to transition into 4 gas speed roach?
When do you make your first pack of lings?
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I'm really surprised at just how well this build fares against 2 stargate openers. Pretty much every variant of 2stargate after FFE crumbles when it faces mutas with optional corruptor support that quickly.
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On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote:
this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
User was warned for this post
Learn the meta game before complain, the fast speed gives map control making it so any sort of push is super delayed because speedlings will get that probe most likely. Also the build is strong v. basetrade so it works well in that perspective too. With 80 ish drones spine will be possible for sure making this build really tough.
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Canada13389 Posts
Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
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On May 26 2012 03:20 ZeromuS wrote:
Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
That is essentially what JYP did. He lost, because the muta count was simply too high for him to deal with. That said, it wasn't the sort of loss that looked completely hopeless: I'm sure there's ways to make it work.
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What if protoss just camps 2/3 base with just blink stalkrs and colossi?
User was warned for this post
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United States8476 Posts
On May 26 2012 03:20 ZeromuS wrote:
Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
This is a really tricky question. Part of the current strength of the build is novelty. It's not what everyone else is doing so people aren't as familiar with it. However, that's the case with every new build. This particular build, at first glance, can be tweaked to be solid enough to become a solid build.
Taking a "safe third" is also a very dubious term. I assume you think it's a safe third, because no 11 minute roach spam will be coming. However, you fail to account for the fact that roach spam isn't the only threat to a third base; it's just the one that everyone is talking about at the moment. Super fast muta, imo, is at least in the top 2 of threats to a fast third base, because of how spread out you become on fewer resources. Also, some people these days overly prepare for roaches and don't account for the possibility of super fast mutas in their build.
I will say that one potential "weakness" in the build is if your opponent opened stargate, blindly built up a phoenix count and somehow spotted the proxy spire. Phoenix with range can just murder the mutas out of the air and leave the Zerg in an unfavorable position.
In reference to the immortal/prism allin, almost all versions don't open with an obs, so you can't just reactively take a 3rd with that build.
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I think i saw a similar build at TLO 's stream where he hided his spire and went immediatly to mutas.He got an evo with lings though which made it look like standard muta ling.
I guess we could wait and see if it comes up in any other tournament.
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does anyone have any rough benchmarks for gases, ling speed, lair, and spire timing? I don't have access to the vods 
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United States8476 Posts
My friend recently sent me a replay which made me highly doubt this style versus the immortal all-in. First, a spinet from the interview:
This was your second UnD ever. It ended oh so quickly.
We shouldn’t make it so hard on the reporters and staff members on the first day, should we? (laugh). Actually, UnD is not a bad format for me. I like improvising on the spot. Not that I want to be back in it.
Speaking of improvising, tell us examples in today’s games.
The 10 pool I chose against July was completely unplanned and against Lure, I chose a base race because I knew I couldn’t win head on.
It isn't definitive, but these statements make it seem as if Nestea's base race was improvised and not at all planned.
Now, back to the replay I was sent, which I will not post for privacy reasons. It was a PvZ on Atlantis Spaceship with this exact muta build versus a not especially efficient immortal all-in.
First, some timings:
An efficient immortal all-in is ready to hit at the earliest around 10:40.
In the Nestea vs Lure replay, Nestea attacked Lure's front with10 mutas and a handful of lings at 11:40.
The point I'm trying to make is that if your opponent attacks as soon as possible, he will have a 1 minute head start in the base trade. In the Nestea game, Lure attacked at 10:50, which is relatively fast. He went for the 3rd but didn't kill it as fast as he could. He only got to the natural at 11:20 and only finished clearing up the spines at 12:00.
In the replay I previously mentioned, the Protoss gunned straight for the natural around 10:50. This is not the best choice versus roach lings, because flanks are the #1 think you have to fear when you do this all-in, but against this muta ling strategy, it's deadly. The zerg only had half the spines and almost instantly lost his natural and main. I would argue that making spines at your main ramp instead of your natural ramp is better, but it still stands that if your opponent heads straight for the natural instead of wasting time at the 3rd, you will have much more trouble.
The second problem with this build is that Antiga Shipyards, the map it was done on, is the shortest air distance between bases. Nestea got to his opponent's base abnormally fast on this map whereas on other maps, it would take him around 10 seconds longer, giving the Protoss even more extra time to base trade. On the other hand, rush distance doesn't matter to the Protoss with his warp ins.
Another thing to note, possibly the most important, is that because this strategy is now known, Protoss can now adjust their builds to handle this strategy. They won't waste time at the 3rd when they see no drones or units. They'll make cannons at their natural choke and warp in a round of stalker/sentry, which will be enough to deal with 10 mutas and ~30 lings. Also, once scouting no roaches, the Protoss could bolt straight for the natural. There are a ton of little adjustments Protoss can do to improve their all-in vs this.
All in all, this build can beat immortals all-ins, maybe even a majority of the time. However, I think it's a stretch to say that it's solid, especially against someone who's seen and dealt with it before.
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I will say that one potential "weakness" in the build is if your opponent opened stargate, blindly built up a phoenix count and somehow spotted the proxy spire. Phoenix with range can just murder the mutas out of the air and leave the Zerg in an unfavorable position.
I actually lost a game to this. I've won most of my games when doing this build when they only made 1-4 void rays (dont ask why they made 4 void rays and no phoenix, that's mid masters for you), but I've lost 2 games when Toss actually made a lto of phoenix (funny, I never feared phoenix committment because it just means go infestors ezpz win fast hive).
I also think my macro is crap, my mutas came out like 2 minutes later than I should, and I had about 10 less drones than nestea. Like, really bad on my part.
I imagine if you do the build right, your mutas will overpower phoenix, and you can add corruptors, or just go towards infestors and fast hive (i wonder if you would need to add roaches for roach/infestor, or just go quicker hive). So I would think phoenixes actually aren't a great counter to this... but I did lose to it every time someone did it. My macro with the build was awful, so who knows though, just saying.
All in all, this build can beat immortals all-ins, maybe even a majority of the time. However, I think it's a stretch to say that it's solid, especially against someone who's seen and dealt with it before.
Thanks for the (non)replay analysis, that's very interesting. I've played 3 games and actually beat my first 2 immortal/sentry all-ins using this build, as well as someone vr/gateway all-in. The games were definitely not efficient, against, mid-masters, but thinking about what you said, yea, maybe mutas wouldn't work. ill try to upload reps soon, my sc2gears folder system is screwing up badly.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
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United States8476 Posts
I imagine if you do the build right, your mutas will overpower phoenix, and you can add corruptors, or just go towards infestors and fast hive (i wonder if you would need to add roaches for roach/infestor, or just go quicker hive). So I would think phoenixes actually aren't a great counter to this... but I did lose to it every time someone did it. My macro with the build was awful, so who knows though, just saying.
This isn't really true. Phoenix with the new range upgrade counter mutas quite well. Hero and MC have notably employed this.
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I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
You have to put so much into phoenixes, then phoenix tech. Once I realize you are making more than 4 phoenixes, I just switch into infestors and corruptors. The corruptors keep my mutas alive, and eventually the infestors against your range upgraded phoenixes.
I've seen games with hero using the range upgrade, if I recall there was a game he did it on Metropolis last season. Obviously, if zerg doesnt get infestor tech until he suddenly sees 8+ range upgraded 3 base protoss who already started colossi production, your screwed.
I suppose it's more about the timings - it's not so clear cut as "phoenixes with range own mutas". It depends on Toss' economy and if his colossi production is slowed or not (ie did he start colossi production already), and if Zerg put a lot into mutas, and if he gets his infestation pit in good time. It seems to me, as long as you get infestation pit when you see more than 4 phoenixes, or when toss starts to go for phoenixes as anti-muta, and then transition towards fast hive and infestors, you should be fine, using a few corruptors to make sure those initial phoenix don't kill off your mutas until you get infetors out.
I mean... if you just go range upgraded phoenix on 2 base as a reaction to muta play, the zerg will just transition to infestors, and it doesnt really matter because phoenixes are largely useless (unlike, stalkers, which can be used for aggression or to secure the third) for a push. So the game is sort of in the same spot it was 4 minutes ago - toss on 2 base and can't secure his third or kill zerg, Zerg on 3 base but has map control and can tech up.
Alternatively, if Toss has set up his third, and is defending well and starts colossi production and uses blink stalkers at defense initially, and zerg commits more and more to mutas (20+), switching to range upgraded phoenix can be really strong. But it's kind of weird for Zerg to be making mutas after Toss has his third and is stabilizing against the mutas, and not have infestation pit started when he sees lots of phoenixes.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
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United States8476 Posts
On May 26 2012 13:04 Belial88 wrote:
I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
You have to put so much into phoenixes, then phoenix tech. Once I realize you are making more than 4 phoenixes, I just switch into infestors and corruptors. The corruptors keep my mutas alive, and eventually the infestors against your range upgraded phoenixes.
I've seen games with hero using the range upgrade, if I recall there was a game he did it on Metropolis last season. Obviously, if zerg doesnt get infestor tech until he suddenly sees 8+ range upgraded 3 base protoss who already started colossi production, your screwed.
I suppose it's more about the timings - it's not so clear cut as "phoenixes with range own mutas". It depends on Toss' economy and if his colossi production is slowed or not (ie did he start colossi production already), and if Zerg put a lot into mutas, and if he gets his infestation pit in good time. It seems to me, as long as you get infestation pit when you see more than 4 phoenixes, or when toss starts to go for phoenixes as anti-muta, and then transition towards fast hive and infestors, you should be fine, using a few corruptors to make sure those initial phoenix don't kill off your mutas until you get infetors out.
I mean... if you just go range upgraded phoenix on 2 base as a reaction to muta play, the zerg will just transition to infestors, and it doesnt really matter because phoenixes are largely useless (unlike, stalkers, which can be used for aggression or to secure the third) for a push. So the game is sort of in the same spot it was 4 minutes ago - toss on 2 base and can't secure his third or kill zerg, Zerg on 3 base but has map control and can tech up.
Alternatively, if Toss has set up his third, and is defending well and starts colossi production and uses blink stalkers at defense initially, and zerg commits more and more to mutas (20+), switching to range upgraded phoenix can be really strong. But it's kind of weird for Zerg to be making mutas after Toss has his third and is stabilizing against the mutas, and not have infestation pit started when he sees lots of phoenixes.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
Stephano only said that right after the patch came out. He recently lost to Hero going ranged phoenix when he was going mutas. Phoenix are perfectly good and you should never lose them if you use them defensively to ward off mutas and discourage base trading. As long as you spend a good ratio of gas on phoenix as your opponent does mutas, you're dandy as Protoss.
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These games show the other side of the coin to a style of ZvP that seems incredibly awesome because of obvious consistency.
There are two sides to this style, the ability to turn into mass roach Stephano play or the ability to go for a large Muta (Maybe even Infestor) play.
Keys to the Style:
1. Quick fast 1st gas, before 5 minutes. Reasonably timing Ling Speed and Lair.
2. Overlord sacing around 7 minutes. Need to see both Protoss gas count and key buildings. (Would consider using 2 overlords on some maps.)
3. Response depending on info into typical Roach/Evo and Lair, probably add on 2 more gases OR into 5 more gases Lair and Muta.
These two options to me seem able to put Zerg in a spot to win quite reliably as it is entirely reactionary.
An potential "fakes" are also pointless as any Protoss build which delays timing in favor of perfect unit comp will just get crushed under Zerg economy. (Delayed Immortal Push crushed by Hydras or Fake Stargate into 7 Gate won't beat Muta timing)
If the guessing game is removed from PvZ I feel the matchup is strongly in the Zerg favor.
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I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
Well, I've seen games where this happens and as soon as infestors out, the phoenix stay defensive and toss can take every base on his side of the map immediately because the mutalisks are no longer an offensive threat. He has enough time to get cannons and walls up before zerg has another option at the ready, and mutalisks can't dive into the main base while the army is out, because there are phoenix. The muta and phoenix cancel each other out, Toss needs a late game fleat beacon anyway, and Hero seems to find a way to work a few carriers in with his mothership when he gets phoenix range. In the first big engagement you can lift all of the infestors (before getting eventually fungalled to death) and that can change things, so they aren't an entirely wasted investment.
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United Kingdom535 Posts
So after pouring over Blades replays I started trying this build and it works great. Robo allins no longer trouble me at all! I have found however that going muta against an air build just doesnt work.
As mentioned earlier if the toss plays smart with his phoenix you just lose and I cant get adding in corrupters in to work as they are just too slow. What I love about this build however is its versitility. I have found that going ling infestor into ultra instead of muta works really well against dedicated air openings.
If the toss skimps on ground unts or tries to get his third to quickly you can end his third while teching on three base+add 4th and threaten runbys to delay pushes. As soon as ultras are out the deathball dies. I was wondering what people thought of ling ultra against air builds zvp? Ones that transtion into standard robo/gate deathball that is.
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^ So if Toss goes stargate, you respond by getting infestors? Do you bother getting roaches?
What level is this? Ultras generally aren't used in zvp due to zealots and immortals just owning them so hard.
I have had success against robo all-ins though - they will definitely kill a base but you should be in theirs with 15-20 mutas and a ton of lings. I don't bother getting spines, just make more lings and make sure to have drones out to be ready to plant far away bases.
I watched Nestea stream earlier, and he clearly goes 5:30 2xGas. So this is a special build he did. I'm curious in how stable he thinks it is and if he'll use it further in the GSL.
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EPT
