Fast third vs FFE. Nestea goes for a quick 1st geyser right after third is planted, and gets a quick ling speed, and does not make a roach warren or evo, and goes for 10+ mutas that pop at 10:00, relying on base trading to beat all-ins and scouting a gas to confirm no need for a warren. He crushes a stargate into fast third opener, and an immortal/sentry all-in.
There are 2 notable things: 1. nestea gets a really quick gas, around 5:00, right around his third timing. This is almost similar to the gas timing of zenio's 3 hatch ling/bane all-in. You would think it would hurt his supply, but nestea actually gets up to 70+ in both games in the 8:00 mark (78 in 2nd). I think this is because he isn't maynarding any workers to his third, instead maynarding to his natural, and then just rallying new drones to his third.
2. Using his quick ling speed for defense, nestea gets no roach warren or evo chamber!! this is insane! It's incredibly greedy, but I think he's able to do this because he sees Toss get gas (maybe even the robo? have to rewatch to see what he scouted), meaning no quick 4 gate or plain 6 gate all-in.
In the game vs JYP, he proxies his spire, and it's against stargate play, using incredibly greedy play of no roaches, in order to afford a ton of mutas, quick, and hard.
it was the first game, so we all probably thought "okay, well, that was risky, but there's no way that would work if someone did a gate all-in, and someone going stargate, into fast third, on entombed where every toss goes fast third, is a predictable metagame build, so there's no way he'd survive an immortal sentry all-in'.
Lo and behold, Lure does a textbook immortal/sentry all-in. Nestea masses spines in his nat, giving no fight to hold his nat, and is clearly preparing for a base trade right away. He easily wins the base trades with mass lings, and even had 2 drones out on the map before lure pushed out.
I wonder how strong this build really is, and what nestea's thought process is behind it, but it'd be really interesting if this was the future of zvz. I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate.
well the first game against JYP, his spire was hidden, and he made 17 at a time. So I wouldn't say its useful if a protoss goes air unless you hide the spire. The second scenario is more understandable, but I wouldn't consider this new. Its just 3 base muta ling. :/
Not trying to shoot you down, but I would say we need more examples of protoss going air before we can confirm this build is good enough to be standardized.
"I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate."
Toss get ALWAYS Gas, like every race, doesn't matter if he goes for Gate or Stargate play, but isn't gas a must anyways? So could you explain me please what do you mean exactly by this?
just a side note: if you're going to do this check that the Toss is actually mining gas from the extra geysers. A friend of mine loves to throw down the 4th assimilator and then does not actually mine gas from it. He uses to trick me into thinking he's going some sort of tech build and then he slams me with some sort of 2base all-in (e.g. 6gate 3immortal push)
By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
On May 21 2012 20:38 NguN wrote: I haven't watched the games yet unfortunately, but how did Nestea defend against (if there was any) +1 Zealot pressure without a Roach Warren?
There wasn't any, it looked like he was playing completely unsafe against it because he saw two fast gasses at the natural.
On May 21 2012 20:39 IamPryda wrote: By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
What are the timings i need to care of than? Cause he will get all gas sonner or later anyways.
On May 21 2012 20:38 NguN wrote: I haven't watched the games yet unfortunately, but how did Nestea defend against (if there was any) +1 Zealot pressure without a Roach Warren?
There wasn't any, it looked like he was playing completely unsafe against it because he saw two fast gasses at the natural.
its not unsafe at all. if he scoutes fast 2 gases and sees probes mining from it there cant be 4 gate pressure since toss spends his minerals on gases + 6 probes mining gas.
i really like the idea of getting a REALLY late roach warren (or non at all) vs fast 2 gas builds since you just dont need it and it costs 4 drones which is huge.
On May 21 2012 20:39 IamPryda wrote: By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
What are the timings i need to care of than? Cause he will get all gas sonner or later anyways.
6-7ish minutes i'd say. @poster above me: i honestly don't know i don't really use +1 zealot pressure, but what would happen if p went for +1 zealot with a void ray?
I saw the Lure game, what made it really cool for me was: 1.Khaldor telling a story about how he asked Nestea about his muta play and he said that 9 out of 10 games he practices infestor but in a match he just kind watches himself going muta, hahah. 2. how he killed the wall off with his mutas to let the lings kill everything in the base, then chased probes with mutas. At first I thought shit why isnt he hilling the probes with his mutas!!
this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote: this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote: this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola!
That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build.
On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote: this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola!
That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build.
well yeah but you as P dont know whether Z build a roach warren. so you cut 1 gate + Z can sacc ovi and scout your gates + delay your proxy pylon with speedlings. but yes this could potentially be good vs non roach warren builds like nesteas.
The counter to mutaplay is a fast third, isn't it? Because of roachplay, Protoss rather try to go for Immortal pushes than fast thirds, and Nestea counteracts that, by going for mutalisk play instead of roach play. Sounds like a metagame thing to me.
How many gases did nestea go up to when going for the mutas? Did he stay on four gases or did he go all the way up to six? Playing around with this, it's looking pretty viable.
I assumed nestea was going up to six gases for mutas - seems you need to grab the additional gases at seven minutes, when the lair is still morphing. Seven minutes would also be the time you suicide in an overlord to check on the protoss, so this means that you can make the decision of whether to go for roaches or mutas on a purely reactionary basis: see both gases at seven minutes, go for mutas - otherwise go for roach/ling. The only adjustment is whether or not to make two extra geysers at your third instead of grabbing roach/evo.
I'm still trying to work out the gas timings: it seems you need to go up to three gases before grabbing your lair but after grabbing zerling speed - either way you make the rest of the gases while the lair is morphing. The way I've been experimenting the lair doesn't finish until 8:00 so that leaves a slight vulnerability to DT rushes due to the lack of evo.
I'll post more once I get a look at the VODs.
EDIT:
VODs are up!
Nestea takes his first gas at 4:45, at about 28 food.
Against Lure, Nestea sees two gases taken before 7:00 and takes five additional gases while lair is making. All five gases are being made before the first gas finishes. This seems perfectly reactionary.
Against JYP, Nestea again sees two gases finished at the natural before 7:00, and reacts by going up to six gases on all his bases. This also seems to be a pure reaction to seeing the gases being taken.
On May 21 2012 22:00 -orb- wrote: Couldn't you just go mass spine anyways?
Gateway allins are pretty weak to spine crawlers :O
I mean hell, even the immortal allin got too far slowed down by the mass spines, and immortals are fantastic against spines.
I don't think mass spining makes a lot of sense - you have three bases to defend after all. Nestea's plan was to abandon his third and turtle at his natural while base-trading, and the mutas aren't out until 10:40 or so. It would seem suicidal to do this against a gateway all-in that hits before 10 minutes.
On May 21 2012 22:00 -orb- wrote: Couldn't you just go mass spine anyways?
Gateway allins are pretty weak to spine crawlers :O
I mean hell, even the immortal allin got too far slowed down by the mass spines, and immortals are fantastic against spines.
I don't think mass spining makes a lot of sense - you have three bases to defend after all. Nestea's plan was to abandon his third and turtle at his natural while base-trading, and the mutas aren't out until 10:40 or so. It would seem suicidal to do this against a gateway all-in that hits before 10 minutes.
Yup, he already stated in his interview that he didn't plan on taking on protoss army after seeing him go immortal sentry. he decided a base trade is the best situation.
I have yet to watch the games but people saying how would he defend against +1 zealots without roaches, its simple cause he scouts no proxy pylons and scouts gas timings, If he has an indication that early gateway pressure would be applied its likely he would throw down a Roach warren or make spines sooner and continue on.
On May 21 2012 22:00 -orb- wrote: Couldn't you just go mass spine anyways?
Gateway allins are pretty weak to spine crawlers :O
I mean hell, even the immortal allin got too far slowed down by the mass spines, and immortals are fantastic against spines.
I don't think mass spining makes a lot of sense - you have three bases to defend after all. Nestea's plan was to abandon his third and turtle at his natural while base-trading, and the mutas aren't out until 10:40 or so. It would seem suicidal to do this against a gateway all-in that hits before 10 minutes.
Yup, he already stated in his interview that he didn't plan on taking on protoss army after seeing him go immortal sentry. he decided a base trade is the best situation.
Hm. Do you think maybe that is why the BW pros were all just smashing their armies into the protoss base when they got immortal 2 based? Maybe they weren't just being retarded. Preparing for a base trade may be the most reliable way to beat something like this.
Hm. Do you think maybe that is why the BW pros were all just smashing their armies into the protoss base when they got immortal 2 based? Maybe they weren't just being retarded. Preparing for a base trade may be the most reliable way to beat something like this.
Its probably the most reliable way when ure not prepared enough. If you can hold it (eg you got hydras with range as well as a good amount of units in time, or burrow movement, infestors and so on) id rather smash it, the loss of all those sentries and immortals, as well as his lack of economy and tech is much more likely to be a win than baseracing.
And, dont think that those broodwar pros were super good at sc2, most of them are just low/mid masters with superb mechanics and bad gamesense (for now).
On May 21 2012 22:00 -orb- wrote: Couldn't you just go mass spine anyways?
Gateway allins are pretty weak to spine crawlers :O
I mean hell, even the immortal allin got too far slowed down by the mass spines, and immortals are fantastic against spines.
I don't think mass spining makes a lot of sense - you have three bases to defend after all. Nestea's plan was to abandon his third and turtle at his natural while base-trading, and the mutas aren't out until 10:40 or so. It would seem suicidal to do this against a gateway all-in that hits before 10 minutes.
Yup, he already stated in his interview that he didn't plan on taking on protoss army after seeing him go immortal sentry. he decided a base trade is the best situation.
Hm. Do you think maybe that is why the BW pros were all just smashing their armies into the protoss base when they got immortal 2 based? Maybe they weren't just being retarded. Preparing for a base trade may be the most reliable way to beat something like this.
They are still fresh in the gameplay of SC2. At the current BW pros level skill in SC2, the protoss race would dominate since toss army are better than Z or T army in the mid-late game. I watched those games and literally almost every battle the toss would win because the T or Z would try to engage the enemy head on without spreading or flanking and bait out more forcefields.
Plus, the terran players were overstimming a lot and repeatedly retreating and never engaging properly. But this is something they can work on since they are still new to the game. Plus, they have to train in both games which is pretty tough and also the OSL is still going on. Most people still in the current OSL season were the ones losing(Flash,Soulkey,etc) since they are probably putting more time into BW practice.
But one thing though that i have to give the BW players credit is that they have freaking sick map awareness. They literally can pick-up anything that is going on within mini-map and react towards it(albeit not properly since they are still fresh in SC2)
Btw this is not nes teas build and he does not have a all in muta strat.....He only base traded that game last night because thats all he was able to do, toss pushed into his base sooner.
Nestea goes muta in gsl by impulse if u saw the off the record last week.... so this is not "nesteas" all in, as he does not mean for what he does to be a all in...
Don't just watch one game and try to make a guide based of a unique situation that will not happen on the ladder often.
On May 21 2012 23:55 silentdecay01 wrote: Btw this is not nes teas build and he does not have a all in muta strat.....He only base traded that game last night because thats all he was able to do, toss pushed into his base sooner.
Nestea goes muta in gsl by impulse if u saw the off the record last week.... so this is not "nesteas" all in, as he does not mean for what he does to be a all in...
Don't just watch one game and try to make a guide based of a unique situation that will not happen on the ladder often.
Don't just read the title of a thread and assume you know what you are talking about.
He is not talking about an allin from nestea, he is talking about a standard build from nestea that incorporates 3base muta that BEATS the immortal 2base allin.
On May 21 2012 21:39 Corsica wrote: so how do you defend those 7-8 gate allins with like 32 probes? i just feel so scared without roaches
If you see the Game between Nestea and Lure, you will know that he just made massive spine wall in the natural and went for a base trade with his muta/ling.
Just watched the VODs, I think in the game vs JYP, Nestea tricked him to make zealot sentry instead of anti-muta units (blink stalkers, phoenixes), and second game was pretty crisp base race decision. I think a major reason of him going so hard on drones is the third gas he scouted in both games. That puts him into a super comfortable spot when he can just make drones and wait till spire to finish.
The whole point is that the spire play is strong if the Protoss player goes for a strong tech based build (primarily robo, although Nestea made it work v. a stargate build as well). If you see an indication of a gate all-in, which can be a number of things, such as quick proxy pylons, only two gases, actually seeing the gateways or a ton of chronoboost spend on the forge and core, you don't do this.
On May 21 2012 20:39 IamPryda wrote: By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
What are the timings i need to care of than? Cause he will get all gas sonner or later anyways.
6-7ish minutes i'd say. @poster above me: i honestly don't know i don't really use +1 zealot pressure, but what would happen if p went for +1 zealot with a void ray?
You wouldn't need the void ray.
4 gate zealot has 2 builds into two timings.
You can hit around 7 minutes if you go gate first, Yuffe style and off a normal FFE the 4 gate hits about 8 minutes with first warp in.
If you go zealot void ray you hit at around 8:30 with first warp in on a longer map if you 4 gate and 8:00 with first warp in and a void ray to show up later if you go 3 gate. Alternatively, you can hit at the standard 8:30 with the void ray and have 2 zealot warp ins off of 3 gates which IMO is better and give you more options to follow up.
The thing is you only need the void ray against roach openers, but then again if he masses lings to inefficiently keep his 3rd alive in the hopes of muta play then yeah, thats fine the void ray would kill the third.
I think that the thing about this build is it seems like it really is metagaming. Proxy spire? I need to watch these games but this doesn't seem "solid". Like what if you get hit with a 7 gate. You die. Unless of course the ovie speed upgrade means that nestea is getting a full scout every game.
He uses a quick speed to deal with any zealot pressure due to scouting no gas and late warren (eg he would probably have a 7:00. Roach warren, which is still ealier than 'standard' roach warren as a reaction to no gas by 7:00). By seeing toss have gas at his natural, he knows he is safe from gateway allins and 4 gate pressure. I imagine he went into both of these games planning to go quick mutas, because his first gas and speed is absurdly early. By skiping roaches and evo, he's able to get supper fast mutas.
No protoss going ffe with gas is going to be prepared for 10:33 mutas. Its an interesting timing attack, and I don't see how any toss can be prepared for it unless they specifically go for a 6 gate allin, but that's a 'bad' allin that has tons of problems on its own - the tech is super late, no probes, its like 4 gating. And nestea would handle such a build easily with his quick speed, and a reactive roach warren due to no gas at the nat.
He clearly did this build with a lan, not reactive mutas. No toss can handle such fast mutas as it is now, and nestea can reactively go corruptors vs double star or quick gateway allin. Going fast third is vulnerable because its so many mutas, so quickly - as you can see in his game vs JYP.
And immortal/sentry is quickly becoming the textbook strongest allin toss can do - nestea obviously was prepared for such a build, which is what lure did, by going for a base trade if toss goes immortal sentry.
Maybe a 7gate blink allin as an opener would be a counter build? 7gate stalkers at your door at 9:30... but I imagine even then, nesteas quick mutas would win a basetreade. I don't know, that's a very allin build, I'm sure nestea would react to it with roaches when scouting with an overlord and overseer.
This build is nothing like 2base muta... 2base muta is somewhat allinnish in that you have to do damage, and gets less mutas out earlier but has a similiar muta count by 11:00 due to only 4 gas.
In the current metagame, you NEVER see zerg get mutas this fast. Every zerg nowadays wouldn't dare go mutas if toss is doing a 2base allin, esppecially immortalsentry, because they all get roaches. 'Fast' mutas generally are like 12minute, because zergs need roach/ling to handle warpgate aggression, and toss knows they don't need to worry about mutas, because zerg will make roaches, they have to defend.
Well this build does counters the very popular 4gate robo with 3 immortal+sentries supported with stalkers though. I think this build is interesting and and i would like to know build order for it if someone knows. I love how he proxied his spire so that the enemy won't know what's coming until the mutas literally pop out.
I feel like this Nestea make this build to metagame his opponent since the current metagame is focused on getting 3 hatch gasless into your standard roach pressure to deny third or tech up to BLs+Infestor. Not sure this build is optimal enough for standard play though. Have not seen enough games to determine it yet.
^ I mean the build order is just the normal 3hatch vs zv. You can find information about it in my zvp guide. The only difference is gas after taking third (4:45 gas), speed, and then make sure toss gets gas. If he does, go lair, drone u liike normal and respond to early presure using speedlings, and if he doesn't get gas, get roach warren.
I mean it isn't that unstandard of a build. Nestea is using good decision making to understand that a toss who gets gas, means you don't need roaches. No this isn't that novel on its own - what's novel, is that nestea uses ling/muta (which he can only afford by skippping roach warren=about 7 more drones, and not getting uprgades, roach speed, roaches, and burrow)
Right now, EVERY zerg getts a roach warren, and thinks that you can only defend gateway pressure and 2base allins using roach/ling. By skipping roaches, nestea affords something that was previously unaffordable, gets mutas earlier than possible with roach tech (and which is funny, because the logic is that mutas can't come in time to deal with gateway ppushes and 2base allin, but that's because you are always getting roach tech), and either kills a toss going third, or he base trades any immortal/sentry allin.
Id imagine 2base 930 blink stalker would be trouble to this style, but then nestea would use mass speedlings early on to buy time for a roach warren that is still made by 9:00 so I'm sure they'd be out in time (don't throw spire down until you know the gasing toss is not going blink?)... I really think this build opens up a lot for zerg.
Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
On May 22 2012 04:31 Belial88 wrote: ^ I mean the build order is just the normal 3hatch vs zv. You can find information about it in my zvp guide. The only difference is gas after taking third (4:45 gas), speed, and then make sure toss gets gas. If he does, go lair, drone u liike normal and respond to early presure using speedlings, and if he doesn't get gas, get roach warren.
I mean it isn't that unstandard of a build. Nestea is using good decision making to understand that a toss who gets gas, means you don't need roaches. No this isn't that novel on its own - what's novel, is that nestea uses ling/muta (which he can only afford by skippping roach warren=about 7 more drones, and not getting uprgades, roach speed, roaches, and burrow)
Right now, EVERY zerg getts a roach warren, and thinks that you can only defend gateway pressure and 2base allins using roach/ling. By skipping roaches, nestea affords something that was previously unaffordable, gets mutas earlier than possible with roach tech (and which is funny, because the logic is that mutas can't come in time to deal with gateway ppushes and 2base allin, but that's because you are always getting roach tech), and either kills a toss going third, or he base trades any immortal/sentry allin.
Id imagine 2base 930 blink stalker would be trouble to this style, but then nestea would use mass speedlings early on to buy time for a roach warren that is still made by 9:00 so I'm sure they'd be out in time (don't throw spire down until you know the gasing toss is not going blink?)... I really think this build opens up a lot for zerg.
Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas.
What I think the build could potentially get in trouble against are blink builds or blink+observer, to circumvent spines also I think the classic response to mutalisks should always be immidiatly taking a third, canoning up and maxing out with stalker/templar/archon + a mothership if needed (or alternatively 2SG+fleetbacon 6range phoenix like some Protoss have shown) - especially on smaller maps with little airspace like antiga (but that would require scouting, something a lot of tosses skip upon these days in favor of stronger "blind" allins).
Quick speed to defend gate pressure (think about it - imagine 4 gate +1 but toss can't use a proxy ppylon due to the early speedlings!), and then seeing gas means no need roach warren. Imagine the possibilties with this - using ling/hydra to hold immortal/sentry or blink all ins because you can get enoug hydras out in time, with suport. Quick infestors so you can go ling/infestor super early, and then hive is like done when toss takes his third. Hell, baneling drops again maybe?
The speedling sets you back a bit, but by letting you consistently deny proxies it gives you a longer droning window. Guys like dimaga and morrow always get speed at this timing because they also play without roaches, so you NEED to deny that proxy pylon or you lose. The early game is always scary as hell for them, though. They go +1/+1 into baneling drops, and baneling drops are NOT done in time for most 2-base all-ins, because it is delayed by 1/1, which Nestea skipped. Same for ling infestor - you can get the infestors out fast enough if you skip upgrades, but you need the upgrades, and you won't have enough energy to stop the 2-base all in. Nestea also didn't get a macro hatch, which you would normally need for any other ling based composition.
Going muta in this situation is unique becaue you can skip evo upgrades and base trade. I'm not sure how it would fare against blinkstalker. Blinkstalker combats the mutalisks much better, but also doesn't plough through 13 spinecrawlers as quickly when you don't have 3 immortals.
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
He peaked at 76 drones - he was saturated at all 3 bases, but he pulled all the mineral drones back to his natural to make mass spinecrawlers (and fight). He left the gas drones there to squeeze out a few more mutalisks I guess.
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
He peaked at 76 drones - he was saturated at all 3 bases, but he pulled all the mineral drones back to his natural to make mass spinecrawlers (and fight). He left the gas drones there to squeeze out a few more mutalisks I guess.
ty for clarifying. I saw the dronecount, but didn't remeber the drones being at the third and thought he might not have put them there to begin with or undersaturated it.
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
... like i said, it's NOTHING like 2 base muta. There's a huge difference. 2 base muta gets mutas out quick enough that it will come before toss pressure, like stargate or warp gate pressure, and the 2nd difference is it's kind of all-in, as in if you don't do damage, you get really far behind.
3 base muta, on the other hand, is actually very very macro oriented, actually greedier than standard play by foregoing roach warren, +1, roaches, evo chamber, roach speed, burrow, burrow move...... and it's a completely reactionary build.
Going 2 base muta is like a 6pool. You made the decision to do it, and you are just hoping Toss doesn't do one build over another.
Going 3 base muta, like nestea, well, is new, and I really have no idea what to compare it too. It's probably more like fast third CC in TvZ, except you can scout enough with the overlord at the natural to be safe, and you are getting ling speed very early on.
Normally, Nestea does seem to get a bit quicker gas than most people. I recall during MLG (like the games he had vs naniwa a bunch), he was taking 2xGas at 5:30. This was back before I think fast third was really fleshed out though, this was like 6 months ago, and most zergs were making 6:30 roach warrens and evos as standard, and wouldn't make lair until 90+ supply, first making drones then units (now lair is made about at 50 supply, as long as you see toss get gas at his nat, and even then, many zergs still get lair, especially those zergs who go late 3 gas, which results in a slightly later lair, but more drones, and by 8:00, a better econ, but is of course a little more susceptible to early pressure due to later roaches and ling speed). Him going 4:45 single gas is obviously very, very planned on his part.
I'll try to look up a recent ZvP of him, and see when he took his gases and roach warren and evo chamber. I really doubt he went fast ling speed in those games.
I mean, the fast mutas aren't the only deal here. Going an extremely fast single gas for ling speed, and then not using roaches, and reacting to toss' gas scout, seems like it could open up even greedier play by zerg. It would sure allow a much easier time against immortal/sentry if we could actually get more tech than mass roach against it just to barely survive (or in the case of sniper vs... forget who, on cloudkingdom, just happened, gsl... first game of the set... you lose your third and then push back and try to win by delaying toss third).
I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas.
Are you just low level, not read any of my guides, or any of my, or many other people's, posts in this thread?
1. You have super quick ling speed, that will be out in time to deal with any such pressure. 2. You scout that Toss has gas at his natural. If he doesn't, you make a reactive roach warren! Every zerg scouts to a toss' natural gas to learn what they are doing. 3 and 4 gas can be many things, but only zero gas can be a 4 gate+1/6+ gate all-in.
The speedling sets you back a bit, but by letting you consistently deny proxies it gives you a longer droning window.
Well the most interesting thing, was that Nestea was at 70+ supply at the 8:00 mark in both of the games, despite the fast single gas. He was not set back at all. Besides maybe 2-3 other zergs (idra, drg.....drg), very few zergs ever hit 70+ in a tournament game. I don't think you'd ever see a Code A level zerg (ie not nestea for a week, but regulars like july, bbongbbong, bumblebee, lucky) EVER hit 70+ supply. You watch ZvP of say, an obscure code a zerg like lucky or bongbong - they are always in the lower 60's, sometimes even 50's, at the 8:00 mark.
There is a class of difference in the macro between Nestea and BongBong, lucky, etc. You compare DRG to Lucky, I'd say the average supply difference by the 8:00 mark is almost 20.
Nestea doesn't really hit the same marks that the absolute best zergs do. So it's impressive he hits 70+ with this fast single gas.
I think he's hitting such high supply, because he doesnt maynard workers to his third though. Speaking of which, I'm not sure if DRG or other pro zergs do that. I know I always maynard 4+4 workers to my third in zvp... maybe that's why I personally struggle to hit 70+. Either way, he's hitting 70+, and that's just impressive, as intuition would lead you to believe that Nestea getting such a fast single gas would cause him to lose drones or econ significantly.
Doesn't work against a non FFEing toss! One of the reasons I switched away from FFE.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: I'll give evidence.
If Z goes up to 3bases vrs a NoNy style 2gate, you can:
a) Pressure, which is good against a player w/o roaches considering you push out at 6 with sentry/zealot (4sentry/3zealot or different combinations depending on your mood ). I've never done this vrs this exact build but I can't imagine it not working.
b) Fast hallu scout to see mutas coming. My favorite response to this is blink allin with 2cannons at main and nat (assuming you've gone 2gate fe, forge -> robo +3rd gate) you hallu scout spire, cancel robo throw up council, chrono blink and +1 cut probes when your nat is saturated and push out with stalker/sentry at their 3rd.
Nestea probably wouldn't do this vrs a Toss that doesn't ffe.
Well the most interesting thing, was that Nestea was at 70+ supply at the 8:00 mark in both of the games, despite the fast single gas. He was not set back at all. Besides maybe 2-3 other zergs (idra, drg.....drg), very few zergs ever hit 70+ in a tournament game. I don't think you'd ever see a Code A level zerg (ie not nestea for a week, but regulars like july, bbongbbong, bumblebee, lucky) EVER hit 70+ supply. You watch ZvP of say, an obscure code a zerg like lucky or bongbong - they are always in the lower 60's, sometimes even 50's, at the 8:00 mark.
I don't know if you watched proleague at all, but Jaedong and Effort easily hit 75 supply at 8 min against protoss. Soulkey failed, but I think his last round of drones may have gotten him to 70 only shortly after 8 min. Despite that, all of them severely failed miserably when it came down to figuring out how to actually fight a battle. Hopefully they'll pick that up over time.
Do you know why nestea hit 75 at 8:00 so easily even with early ling speed? - Stayed on one geyser the whole time (built 5 more when he was above 70 supply) - didn't build roach warren or evo chamber.
So I think he may fall behind but then catches up again between the 7 and 8 minute mark.
That's my guess. I think if you want to make yourself safe to switch to roaches, you need the 2nd gas and the roach warren, your economy is set back significantly. In his game against JYP he built a 7 min evo chamber and he was just a bit behind, but still pretty damn good.
^ my guess is because he doesnt maynard workers to his third. He gets his natural, sends half of his main drones to it, and then rallies future drones to his third. I think that leads to a short term lead, ie 70+ supply by 8:00. I'm wondering if it's less in the long run (thats the point of maynarding after all), but with the way timings work out, maybe it's better to do that because of the whole exponential growth of zerg.
That's why I figured the 1 single gas would really hurt his econ, or at least most people and intuition would say that the fast ling speed would hurt your econ (exponential growth of zerg, having less drones early on is worse than more drones early, less later with warren and evo and 2nd gas).
Doesn't work against a non FFEing toss! One of the reasons I switched away from FFE.
User was warned for this post
EDIT: I'll give evidence.
If Z goes up to 3bases vrs a NoNy style 2gate, you can:
a) Pressure, which is good against a player w/o roaches considering you push out at 6 with sentry/zealot (4sentry/3zealot or different combinations depending on your mood ). I've never done this vrs this exact build but I can't imagine it not working.
b) Fast hallu scout to see mutas coming. My favorite response to this is blink allin with 2cannons at main and nat (assuming you've gone 2gate fe, forge -> robo +3rd gate) you hallu scout spire, cancel robo throw up council, chrono blink and +1 cut probes when your nat is saturated and push out with stalker/sentry at their 3rd.
Nestea probably wouldn't do this vrs a Toss that doesn't ffe.
...what is this i dont even :X
No, nestea wouldn't even grab as fast a third if you opened 1 base. He'd probably just crush you for doing a build that other pros and everyone else has written off as bad (unless it's a really weird small map, eg crossfire, dual sight). Of course nestea wouldn't do this vs a toss that doesn't FFE...
Your comment is just like saying "4 gate would crush this build". Like...lol?
I think this build could be viable since the new OL buff allow to you scout the toss much easier and check their gas timings. With that, you can decide whether you want to skip or delay your roach warren.
But like what Belial said, reacting towards the gas scout of the toss we could get even greedier play with the proper scouting information.XDD
This build though will have trouble against 2 base quick upgrade +1 to +3 blink all-in variation. But then we can contain our opponent for a short time and do a base trade if ever needed.Not sure though this build is still fresh.
^ Well, that's what is the intuitive answer. But I can't imagine nestea went into the game against lure, someone he knew was going to probably do some sort of 2 base all-in, and just hope he doesn't go blink all-in (granted, he probably could bet 99.9% it would be an immortal/sentry all-in).
I mean... so blink goes at 9:30. Nestea would scout your gas, react by not making a roach warren or evo, and pump lings out at 8:30. He had actually a ton of lings in both games at about the 9:00-10:00 mark, I imagine enough to hold the initial push out of a blink stalker all-in, make it absolutely impossible to try to get a forward pylon up, and stall just long enough so his roach warren+speed would finish.
I mean... 8:30 he would probably see what you are doing with an overseer, overlord sac, whatever... he'd have lair, so he would just go quickly to roaches and stall with his mass ling.
I have no idea. Just have to see it at play. Maybe nestea would get mutas out in time. I mean can you take on 15 mutas + mass lings with no sentries, and only blink, but maybe 20 stalkers? blink is great for offense, but it's not going to do shit when your stalkers are all the way across the map and 80 lings and 20 mutas are base trading you.
But lets say your blink stalker all-in holds. Even with blink i dont know if you can win a base trade against mutas (you need like mass cannons against mutas, maybe even HT as a requirement too, to win the base trade). Then, you have a huge problem of being on 2 base when it's 13 minutes into the game, and zerg has been on 3 base, 6 gas, and is taking his fourth, and is probably maxed out on ling/muta, and roaches as he adds them in because he knows you wont be able to take a third. Blink stalker all-in puts you further behind techwise than immortal/sentry would have.
The real killer of this build from nestea, is that it's a timing attack, but it's not all-in by any means - you have just as many drones, if not more. You actually have more tech, not less.
The real question is: Is there any Toss build/pressure that can punish a Zerg for not having roaches, when they have a bunch of mutas and early speedlings, and takes gas (so no 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gates.... unless maybe you took your gas as a fakeout, in the prediction they are doing this roachless muta rush?).
I think the idea is pretty much, to get as many mutas as fast as possible. It's a variation of the 2base mutalisk build, but with 6gas. As far as I remember, he didn't have more than 6 (+ maybe very few) drones at the third.
... like i said, it's NOTHING like 2 base muta. There's a huge difference. 2 base muta gets mutas out quick enough that it will come before toss pressure, like stargate or warp gate pressure, and the 2nd difference is it's kind of all-in, as in if you don't do damage, you get really far behind.
3 base muta, on the other hand, is actually very very macro oriented, actually greedier than standard play by foregoing roach warren, +1, roaches, evo chamber, roach speed, burrow, burrow move...... and it's a completely reactionary build.
Going 2 base muta is like a 6pool. You made the decision to do it, and you are just hoping Toss doesn't do one build over another.
Going 3 base muta, like nestea, well, is new, and I really have no idea what to compare it too. It's probably more like fast third CC in TvZ, except you can scout enough with the overlord at the natural to be safe, and you are getting ling speed very early on.
Normally, Nestea does seem to get a bit quicker gas than most people. I recall during MLG (like the games he had vs naniwa a bunch), he was taking 2xGas at 5:30. This was back before I think fast third was really fleshed out though, this was like 6 months ago, and most zergs were making 6:30 roach warrens and evos as standard, and wouldn't make lair until 90+ supply, first making drones then units (now lair is made about at 50 supply, as long as you see toss get gas at his nat, and even then, many zergs still get lair, especially those zergs who go late 3 gas, which results in a slightly later lair, but more drones, and by 8:00, a better econ, but is of course a little more susceptible to early pressure due to later roaches and ling speed). Him going 4:45 single gas is obviously very, very planned on his part.
I'll try to look up a recent ZvP of him, and see when he took his gases and roach warren and evo chamber. I really doubt he went fast ling speed in those games.
I mean, the fast mutas aren't the only deal here. Going an extremely fast single gas for ling speed, and then not using roaches, and reacting to toss' gas scout, seems like it could open up even greedier play by zerg. It would sure allow a much easier time against immortal/sentry if we could actually get more tech than mass roach against it just to barely survive (or in the case of sniper vs... forget who, on cloudkingdom, just happened, gsl... first game of the set... you lose your third and then push back and try to win by delaying toss third).
I'm not with you on this. I'd guess that 3base muta has a ton of trouble with 2SG builds (which you won't see with your OL if toss is good), just like 2base muta and you are still supposed to do damage, if your opponent does go for a third base - which is unlikely right now, due to the roachmetagame and the bad scouting of Protoss at this time. (though we are lacking evidence to confirm this, but reactive extra stargates and phoenixes like some Protoss have played against mutalisks on high level have shown quite some success against 2base muta and 3base roach-->muta, so I'd say that blind 2SG builds should just do very well against 3base muta as well)
And another one of the reasons why I said it is like 2base muta is, that you can't hold a third base with it, so you are basically going mutalisk exactly the same way you do off 2bases: turtle up on 2base with mass spine and don't try to hold your third.
I think 4gate pressure is still possible, because after all, you still can't afford mass speedling early, and especially on a map like antiga where a toss can hide pylons at the main or third base or the areas which are not covered by the watchtower, there is always a good chance you won't find the pylon(s) in time. And if Protoss does so, I'd guess that it could be rather efficient due to the +1 attack (at least the trade could turn out rather OK). But I'd say 4gate +1 pressure is highly unlikely, once you scout 3gas.
Are you just low level, not read any of my guides, or any of my, or many other people's, posts in this thread?
1. You have super quick ling speed, that will be out in time to deal with any such pressure. 2. You scout that Toss has gas at his natural. If he doesn't, you make a reactive roach warren! Every zerg scouts to a toss' natural gas to learn what they are doing. 3 and 4 gas can be many things, but only zero gas can be a 4 gate+1/6+ gate all-in.
I think you are making a bigger deal out of the fast zergling speed then it is. There are quite a few zergs, who have gone ling speed rather early. Most of them just stopped doing so and one of the reasons was 4gate+1 pressure. Yes, you will deal with that pressure, but you will need to invest quite a bit more than Protoss does, due to the +1attack. About 2: At least on my level (mid-high Master EU), there are Protoss players who will show me 2gas a the main, then I go back to the natural and scout another 1gas that he mines from - but out of my sight he has taken out all his workers from the furthest away gas and he is on 2gas at that time and about to do an offensive gateway move. It's highly unlikely (like I said) that Protoss does a Gateway move, but it is not impossible and being overconfident not to face such a thing, may lose you a base or if it is a very quick 6-7gate with +1, even the game. Not to mention, that I think a superfast blink build or a double Stargate build might just straight up counter that mutaplay - and both of those usually take more than 2gas. (again, this would need some prolevel testing)
While the concept of 3base muta without roaches is pretty new (at least as a standard build) and definitely interesting (and scary as fuck as a protoss player), i think it's hard to read too much into a single professional game.
For all we know, it could have been good preparation from Nestea, if he knows that Lure goes immortals in most of his pvz's (random example), a sick risk taken by him that paid off (like his 9pool with drones vs July), an insanely good read he had that you can't do vs ladder players since they will throw crazy shit at you, or a combination of all the above.
Progamers are into each other's heads a lot so it's really, really hard to read much from a single game; i think we have to see if it gets done a lot in the next GSL/tournaments or if it was just a one game thing.
Also, in Idra's code a matches against Avenge he lost basically doing the same thing on Daybreak; Avenge opened stargate and followed it up with a blink stalker timing (which is kinda wierd in and of itself) and slaughtered Idra. Again, just a single game and it's Idra's ZvP, but that's something to think about.
Big J. I really disagree with you, and the reasons are listed here. You make it sound like it's a static build, and it's not. Your reasoning that this build is bad, is because of a very niche, rare, obvious all-in. You saying this build won't work because of double stargate, is like saying it wont work because of 4 gate. It makes no sense.
I'd guess that 3base muta has a ton of trouble with 2SG builds (which you won't see with your OL if toss is good),
No, actually it would be a direct counter to it.
First off, there is no denying scouting of it. You *have* to get all 4 gas, and quickly, if you are going double stargate as Toss. Nestea, seeing you took your gas and knowing no 4 gate +1 or 6/7/8 gate all-in is coming, would skip a roach warren, and as zerg standard right now, every other zerg would completely drone up and not make units until 8:30 (at the earliest). And they would get an evo.
If they don't know enough to know you are going double stargate from your quick 4 gas, which most zergs would figure out right away from your quick 4 gas, they would figure it out when they sac an overlord at 7:00 and see an empty base.
There is not 'good toss won't let you scout it'. There's nothing to scout. All Zerg has to do, is see: 1. 4 gas 2. An empty base
You can hide 2 stargates, but you can't hide 6 gateways. Zerg will figure out pretty quickly that you mining over 600 gas by the 8:00 mark and you have less than 4 buildings to do that with, that the only way you could do that is by going double stargate.
Secondly, these mutas are coming out at 10:33, with the spire done at 10:00. if you watch the games, nestea made FIFTEEN mutas at 10:00. A stargate takes 1 minute, a void ray 1 minute. A double stargate will have 4 void rays at 10:00, maybe 1 more if he's chrono'ing hard. You could switch that with phoenixes, but 15 mutas are going to overpower 6 phoenixes, and even if they don't, 15 mutas + queens surely will. Zerg then simply adds corruptors, and lols as he overruns you. There's no way double stargate could keep up.
Third, all of the above about getting mutas at 10:00 is ridiculous - because Zerg would just get corruptors, not mutas, reactively, when he sends an overseer in and either sees the stargates, or sees an obvious lack of buildings meaning that it's only double stargate.
I dont think you realize how obvious double stargate is. No other build takes 4 gas so quickly, and no other build has a completely empty base. Toss can only have so many pylons at 7:00, there is no way you can deny zerg from thinking "Hey, 4 gas, I should probably be careful in case of stargate or DT, because if he isn't massing gateways for blink or immortal sentry, then he's probably SG/DT, so I'll be safe and add spores, and keep on the look out". Even if you surprise zerg with double stargate, then throw down 6 panic spores while corruptors are morphing.
just like 2base muta and you are still supposed to do damage, if your opponent does go for a third base - which is unlikely right now, due to the roachmetagame and the bad scouting of Protoss at this time. (though we are lacking evidence to confirm this, but reactive extra stargates and phoenixes like some Protoss have played against mutalisks on high level have shown quite some success against 2base muta and 3base roach-->muta, so I'd say that blind 2SG builds should just do very well against 3base muta as well)
2 base muta does not have a problem with double stargate. 2 base muta would get corruptors and take their third, and zerg would go instantly into drones, expanding, then hydras or infestors. And did I mention how obvious double stargate is with the quick 4 gas and an overlord seeing a completely empty base with no gateways put down in it?
And no, you don't have to do damage with this build. That's the thing.
2 base muta HAS to do damage because if you don't, you are on even bases with protoss, which never is a good situation.
3 base muta, the only problem with going mutas, is delaying your hive tech. You dont need hive anytime soon if you have 10:00 mutas. If the attack fails, oh well, you have 3 bases, taking a fourth with map control, and denying Toss' third.
Contrary to 2 base muta, this build is actually extremely greedy - it uses quick speed to deal with warp gate pressure, and forego roaches if you see toss take gas (which they almost always do - 4 gate +1 will have a hard time with no forward pylon and tons of speedlings and a reactive roach warren at 7:00, and 6/7/8 gate is no good anymore), which basically means you have a shitton more economy and gas to do with what you please.
In this case, mutas. Mutas that you can't deal with.
Double stargate is an extreme all-in. Toss don't do it that much anymore because of how obvious it is, and how easy it is for zergs to stop (hey just throw down 10 panic spores, eventually half will pop, and i kept all 3 bases alive and only lost 20 drones, im WAY ahead). It's not a common build.
Secondly, as ive said over and over beacuse i dont think you understand - if you are going double stargate, Zerg will react with queens and spores. There's a reason nestea has never lost to double stargate.
In fact, what's the one unit you don't need against double stargate? ROACHES LOL. Oh you are going double stargate? I will drone hardcore, make corruptors instead of mutas, and while im droning, im going to make even more drones, because no gateway pressure is coming annnnytime soon.
And another one of the reasons why I said it is like 2base muta is, that you can't hold a third base with it, so you are basically going mutalisk exactly the same way you do off 2bases: turtle up on 2base with mass spine and don't try to hold your third.
huh?
No.
You did watch Nestea vs Lure right? It wasn't like 'nestea can't hold his third". It was more like "nestea saw lure do an immortal/sentry push, so he forced a base trade, and mutas will always beat immortals in a base trade". The only reason we haven't seen this before, is because everyone gets roaches, which cuts into muta production and count and timing. Nestea GAVE his third to Lure, and look what happened. Nestea crushed in the base trade. If Lure didn't play aggressively, nestea would have forever denied Lure's third while he transitioned into whatever the hell he wants to lolwin.
I think you are making a bigger deal out of the fast zergling speed then it is. There are quite a few zergs, who have gone ling speed rather early. Most of them just stopped doing so and one of the reasons was 4gate+1 pressure. Yes, you will deal with that pressure, but you will need to invest quite a bit more than Protoss does, due to the +1attack. About 2: At least on my level (mid-high Master EU), there are Protoss players who will show me 2gas a the main, then I go back to the natural and scout another 1gas that he mines from - but out of my sight he has taken out all his workers from the furthest away gas and he is on 2gas at that time and about to do an offensive gateway move. It's highly unlikely (like I said) that Protoss does a Gateway move, but it is not impossible and being overconfident not to face such a thing, may lose you a base or if it is a very quick 6-7gate with +1, even the game. Not to mention, that I think a superfast blink build or a double Stargate build might just straight up counter that mutaplay - and both of those usually take more than 2gas. (again, this would need some prolevel testing)
Yes, you are right that some zergs have gone fast speed. I recall a zerg recently going fast ling speed in the GSL in zvp, on metropolis. I think it was lucky, but it was one of those code a zergs (could have been sniper or bbongbong).
The difference was, was that he still went roaches, and he still used roaches to hold aggression in the mid-game. He didn't capitalize on his quick ling speed, as a way to skip roaches entirely, so that he could tech quicker.
You can't go 4 gate +1 pressure if you take your gas at your natural. No zerg is going, including Nestea, is NOT going to make that 6:30 roach warren if he sees no gas at the natural, for the incoming 4 gate +1 pressure.
I don't get it. You are mid-masters, you should understand all of this, and you should have understood my posts above. You dont skip the roach warren if you see no gas at the natural. Anything less than 4 gate +1 pressure off 2 gas, will be manhandled by mass speedlings.
A fast blink build is something that might punish the lack of roach warren - the difference between immortal/sentry, and blink, is that blink will hit before 10:00, when the mutas are started, and a 6/7/8 gate is obvious with no gas at the natural, in which case zerg will abandon his mutas and instead go for roaches.
TLDR: See no gas, get roach warren at 6:30 (yes, you are behind a few drones than if you didnt have ling speed, but you will absolutely deny any forward pylon and handle the pressure easier because of the quick speed) See gas, skip the roach warren See 4 gas, definitely skip the roach warren, drone hard, sac an overlord to see if base is empty, if it is, get spores and corruptors.
youll notice against jyp, he gets spores up because he knows the stargate is coming btw.
While the concept of 3base muta without roaches is pretty new (at least as a standard build) and definitely interesting (and scary as fuck as a protoss player), i think it's hard to read too much into a single professional game.
2 games. What's interesting, is how clearly nestea did it with a plan. I've watched Nestea's play in zvp for a while now, and while he does take gas earlier than most zergs (i think this is more likely because he really pioneered fast third in zvp, and thats just when they thought they needed it back then), he definitely does not take only 1 gas instead of 2 or 3, and he does not make it as early as 5:45.
Secondly, no roach warren is fucking insane. That is completely new, and he did it in both games.
Immortal/sentry is incredibly hard for zerg to deal with - nestea even tweeted with DRG about how imbalanced it was. That he came up with a counter to immortal/sentry, that isn't just 'spam roaches, hope you survive lol" is amazing. He clearly practiced what he did there.
It was just common knowledge that in midgame zvp, you use roach/ling to hold early pressure, and you use roach/ling to hold 2 base all-ins. That's it, that's just how that stage of the game goes. You can do whatever the hell you want afterwards, but you NEED mass roach to hold 2 base all-ins, and you can't afford to get mutas, infestors, arguably even hydras, out in tiem to deal with them.
Now, I get it if nestea metagamed them, and just skipped roaches so he could go super fast mutas, and just played greedy as shit knowing no 6/7/8 gate would come, but here's why I don't believe that, and believe nestea practcied what he did, with intent:
1. He got a super quick ling speed. If he was going to be risky and greedy, why not just skip both ling speed and roaches? Using standard play as it is today, Nestea definitely could have gotten away with it in game 1 against JYP, who went stargate, to which the typical answer is to just make more drones because you know no pressure is coming. In the 2nd game, immortal/sentry is an extremely strong all-in, but it comes at 10:30, and Lure did a version where he just sat in his base, a-moved out at 10:30. Nestea would have probably crushed that push if he skipped ling speed, skipped roach warren like he did, and then gotten both a little later, after 8:30-9:00.
Going ling speed so early hurts you econ. You generally never see zergs do that, because it's ridiculous (besides that 1 zerg who does it, and i dont know if he's top of the crop in zvp exactly), and useless. But nestea, the greediest macro motherfucker, did it because he knew it was better to get quick ling speed, than to get roaches and slower speed.
There's a tiny gamble - that toss will get gas at his natural and tech up, rather than do a push that requires roaches to hold. But here's the beauty of it all - these pushes, 6/7/8 gate all-in or 4 gate+1, hurt toss a lot more than zerg is hurt by getting ling speed a minute earlier. All nestea has to do is get his 6:30 warren, be behind a couple drones rather than normal, but crush it just the same, and end up with a huge lead, just the same.
2. No roach warren. that's just unheard of. You really never see zergs never get a roach warren in zvp by the 7:30 mark. Conventional zvp is that you NEED roaches to hold off any sort of 2 base toss pressure.
nestea completely sidestepped this pressure, by going mutas insanely quickly and just going for a base trade against any sort of push. How is toss supposed to handle 10:00 base trade with 15+ mutas and 80 lings? You just can't!
Also, in Idra's code a matches against Avenge he lost basically doing the same thing on Daybreak; Avenge opened stargate and followed it up with a blink stalker timing (which is kinda wierd in and of itself) and slaughtered Idra. Again, just a single game and it's Idra's ZvP, but that's something to think about.
Link?
I'm sure idra got a roach warren, did not get a super fast ling speed, and idra is idra. Why, why, why would you get mutas against a blink timing. That's like getting a third vs a clearly 1 basing toss who's going 4 gate. That's so idra right there.
The reason nestea got away with his mutas, is because he totally skipped roach tech. That's 100 gas in speed, possibly burrow, a ton of gas in making roaches, a ton of econ lost by grabbing a 2nd gas and evo chamber and roach warren.
nestea did not grab his 2nd gas until 7:30, and not just his 2nd, but 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. And then he grabs his 5th and 6th at 8:00. The 'standard' gas timings right now, are 2 gas at 6:0. He delayed his 2nd gas by 1:30, quite a long time.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 game two. No roaches made; it's not completely identical but it's similar enough to what you are talking about. Idra does cut drones a lot faster which i didn't remember, and honestly i don't know how that changes the outcome of the game, so eh. But i agree, idra is idra
On May 22 2012 18:43 Teoita wrote: http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls1/vod/66831 game two. No roaches made; it's not completely identical but it's similar enough to what you are talking about. Idra does cut drones a lot faster which i didn't remember, and honestly i don't know how that changes the outcome of the game, so eh. But i agree, idra is idra
Idra starts +1 carapace before starting lair. Idra's spire completes at 12:00 - Nestea's spire completes at 10:00. The builds are dramatically different - the timing of nestea's mutas are the crucial component after all.
While I've been improving dramatically in my ZvP, I am being totally annihilated by the infamous 2 immortal/prism/sentry push. While I know I die due to my macro not being good enough (55-60 supply at 8:00) I see top zergs around the world being raped by that same push (as the zerg's skill/macro level increases, so the execution of the all-in becomes better). So I am caught in the mentality of "if I improve my macro to the point I kill consistently protosses of my level, protosses of the next level will still kick my ass with the exact same build". Since this happens to every Z around there we've had the complaints in the DRG-Nestea tweets.
So I see this build as an extremelly refreshing change in pace, actually giving a strategic alternative instead of a tactical/build execution one. And to be honest, I would have never paid enough attention to Nestea's strategical decisions if it weren't for that thread of yours!
I am definately going to work on this but I would like to ask you a question: What happens if the toss goes for a 2base blink stalker/immortal +2 attack all-in and he moves out at 160+ supply? If I recall corectly, that could happen at 13-14min. You would have commited to mutalisks too hard to be able to go infestor/roach/spine to hold it, while it seems to me that in a base trade vs a push like that would go like:
-160 supply toss army can kill a 200/200 zerg that is not massing spines WITH infestor and +2 attack roach. -Toss warp-ins will only happen in his main, therefore not reinforcing his already unstoppable army and spending all minerals on stalker/cannon to hold the base trade.
+2blink stalkers can kill a large muta/ling force if battle happens in tight areas with cannons (aka a base of a toss who is prepared for the base trade).
Should the zerg try to hold the front with spine/muta/ling? Should he rush for infestor if he sees blink upgrading from 2base while planting spines? Help me, I lose every time a toss turtles in 2base and masses stalker/immortal T_T
On May 23 2012 01:55 Notfragile wrote: Awesome post, Belial!
While I've been improving dramatically in my ZvP, I am being totally annihilated by the infamous 2 immortal/prism/sentry push. While I know I die due to my macro not being good enough (55-60 supply at 8:00) I see top zergs around the world being raped by that same push (as the zerg's skill/macro level increases, so the execution of the all-in becomes better). So I am caught in the mentality of "if I improve my macro to the point I kill consistently protosses of my level, protosses of the next level will still kick my ass with the exact same build". Since this happens to every Z around there we've had the complaints in the DRG-Nestea tweets.
So I see this build as an extremelly refreshing change in pace, actually giving a strategic alternative instead of a tactical/build execution one. And to be honest, I would have never paid enough attention to Nestea's strategical decisions if it weren't for that thread of yours!
I am definately going to work on this but I would like to ask you a question: What happens if the toss goes for a 2base blink stalker/immortal +2 attack all-in and he moves out at 160+ supply? If I recall corectly, that could happen at 13-14min. You would have commited to mutalisks too hard to be able to go infestor/roach/spine to hold it, while it seems to me that in a base trade vs a push like that would go like:
-160 supply toss army can kill a 200/200 zerg that is not massing spines WITH infestor and +2 attack roach. -Toss warp-ins will only happen in his main, therefore not reinforcing his already unstoppable army and spending all minerals on stalker/cannon to hold the base trade.
+2blink stalkers can kill a large muta/ling force if battle happens in tight areas with cannons (aka a base of a toss who is prepared for the base trade).
Should the zerg try to hold the front with spine/muta/ling? Should he rush for infestor if he sees blink upgrading from 2base while planting spines? Help me, I lose every time a toss turtles in 2base and masses stalker/immortal T_T
No matter how many cannons you make, you won't be able to hold a full on base trade vs muta ling. Waiting for 160 supply seems to be the worst thing you can do as toss.
While watching this game, I was honestly blown away by how simple, yet effective Nestea's thought process was. Gas - no gateway timing. No gas - gateway timing. Taking that simple logic, and turning it into EXTREMELY fast muta tech is really, really scary.
I think a first step to "answering" this as Toss is a faster robo, I mean, obs build time is decreased anyway. Fast obs scouting for a RW or fast Lair/gases, but then I wonder how this affects the timing of the third. You generally want a faster third because of the stephano style roaches, but can you afford fast obs, fast third, and then get a reactionary blink in case of mutas? You'd need a good sim city as well... hmm.
But at the same time, even a fast obs can be avoided, if you proxy the spire the way Nestea did.
Nestea, so smart. Potentially changing the meta again!
On May 23 2012 01:55 Notfragile wrote: Awesome post, Belial!
While I've been improving dramatically in my ZvP, I am being totally annihilated by the infamous 2 immortal/prism/sentry push. While I know I die due to my macro not being good enough (55-60 supply at 8:00) I see top zergs around the world being raped by that same push (as the zerg's skill/macro level increases, so the execution of the all-in becomes better). So I am caught in the mentality of "if I improve my macro to the point I kill consistently protosses of my level, protosses of the next level will still kick my ass with the exact same build". Since this happens to every Z around there we've had the complaints in the DRG-Nestea tweets.
So I see this build as an extremelly refreshing change in pace, actually giving a strategic alternative instead of a tactical/build execution one. And to be honest, I would have never paid enough attention to Nestea's strategical decisions if it weren't for that thread of yours!
I am definately going to work on this but I would like to ask you a question: What happens if the toss goes for a 2base blink stalker/immortal +2 attack all-in and he moves out at 160+ supply? If I recall corectly, that could happen at 13-14min. You would have commited to mutalisks too hard to be able to go infestor/roach/spine to hold it, while it seems to me that in a base trade vs a push like that would go like:
-160 supply toss army can kill a 200/200 zerg that is not massing spines WITH infestor and +2 attack roach. -Toss warp-ins will only happen in his main, therefore not reinforcing his already unstoppable army and spending all minerals on stalker/cannon to hold the base trade.
+2blink stalkers can kill a large muta/ling force if battle happens in tight areas with cannons (aka a base of a toss who is prepared for the base trade).
Should the zerg try to hold the front with spine/muta/ling? Should he rush for infestor if he sees blink upgrading from 2base while planting spines? Help me, I lose every time a toss turtles in 2base and masses stalker/immortal T_T
No matter how many cannons you make, you won't be able to hold a full on base trade vs muta ling. Waiting for 160 supply seems to be the worst thing you can do as toss.
Yes, yes... it's just that I feel really uncomfortable when the immortal/stalker ball starts growing.
So, you'd suggest preparing better for the base trade while the toss gives that time window. Maxing on ling/muta, getting some upgrades, grabbing scattered expos and perhaps making some tech buildings (spire/pool) here and there. And of course massing spines.
I guess I'll get the feel for the base trades, just recently I've been starting to stray from roach and try muta, so there still is a weird feeling knowing you cannot possibly beat his army head on... Thanks for the reply!
Great post, I found these games extremely interesting as well. I've beaten the all-in by baseracing with roaches before, and doing it with ling/muta seems so much better.
One thing I've been wondering: Why don't more protosses skip taking one of the gasses in their main and take the one in the natural instead, in order to confuse the zerg, who relies on the gas timings at the natural? Often you see zergs only scouting the natural gasses, assuming the two in the main have already been taken.
On May 23 2012 07:16 Catatafish wrote: Great post, I found these games extremely interesting as well. I've beaten the all-in by baseracing with roaches before, and doing it with ling/muta seems so much better.
One thing I've been wondering: Why don't more protosses skip taking one of the gasses in their main and take the one in the natural instead, in order to confuse the zerg, who relies on the gas timings at the natural? Often you see zergs only scouting the natural gasses, assuming the two in the main have already been taken.
I've seen more Tosses start doing this as of late in low masters.
A Zerg from NrG also did it to me in ZvZ, completely had me fooled. I thought he was going muta, but he never took gas in his main, and steam rolled me with roaches while I had set up spore defense.
This is one of the reasons a lot of Tosses were angry at OL speed buff, because you couldn't trick the Zerg with your gas count since quite a few Zergs just use that 1 OL in the nat and don't sac one into the main.
Thanks for the kind words, I'm pming you a long response answering your post. Basically, a toss turtling on 2 base is an idiot. I think you are just struggling with your level of play, which is fine, I did too. If Toss doesn't go for his third, or kill you before about 12:00 with a timing, then you are WAY ahead. Going fast third vs Toss, if Toss doesn't get a third in reasonable time, or do damage in the timing where zerg has lots of drones but not enough tech or army out yet, then he was way behind.
You are clearly having a problem realizing an advantage. You can check out the section in my zvp guide called "How to not lose to Ridiculous crap", it addresses this. Also, read the ETA concept guide.
You can go mutas - eventually Toss will lose because you will have 30+ mutas to his ~160 army, and you will easily win any base trade. If he doesn't move out, you constantly snipe of his nexuses in a second with 30+ mutas until he's dead (if you want to be super safe, and he's being an asshole and not leaving, and you know you'd autowin the base trade scenario, just tech up to bl/infestor, he's never going to move out because 2 base toss can never beat 3+ base mutas in a base trade). You can mass roaches, overrun him. He'll die. If you are on top of your macro, upgrades, injects, and get burrow move, no way he can beat your 200/200 roach army right outside his base, when he pushes out, because you are camping out front, and then the 200/200 roach army you remade when he arrives to your base.
Also, on a side note, don't get infestors against a 2base toss. that's probably why you are losing. you are teching too hard. Infestors are very cost inefficient. They are supply efficient, that's their virtue. The 200/200 supply cap is not an issue against 2 base toss. Also, you'll die while trying to tech that hard.
Oh, check my zvp guide. I added a new replay recently on how to base trade with mutas in zvp. Someone does exactly what you are talking about - turtles on 2 base with some robo death army that would beat roaches. The game came down him killing all my bases, me killing all his bases, and then him with like 20 stalkers surronding a pylon. 20 stalkers can't kill 30 mutas before they snipe a pylon in 2 shots, and he can't kill the hatcheries i have all around the map because then his pylon is unprotected (and if he sends just parts of his army, i send the mutas to kill them). You'll see. It's a good rep on answering your question about base tradin
As a Protoss player, isn't this beatable with good scouting? Getting a hallucinated Phoenix out to scout the tech everywhere, even if he tries to hide it, wouldn't that just shut this down. If I scout mega fast spire it would be simple to drop double star and get ready for a Templar transition right. It seems like this whole idea relies on a lack of Protoss scouting
It seems like your counter relies on a lack of zerg scouting. If the zerg scouts double stargate, he can drop down a roach warren and go roach corrupter with a great economy.
On May 23 2012 21:35 Wingblade wrote: As a Protoss player, isn't this beatable with good scouting? Getting a hallucinated Phoenix out to scout the tech everywhere, even if he tries to hide it, wouldn't that just shut this down. If I scout mega fast spire it would be simple to drop double star and get ready for a Templar transition right. It seems like this whole idea relies on a lack of Protoss scouting
See above for why 2stargate is a bad idea. Zerg can simply mix in corruptors and be in fantastic shape.
Watched those games, stole his build, reaping the profits. It's nice, this build is great vs that stupid ass immortal build lol. Did 5 games with a teamate to make sure I had all the timings down, transitions (since you normally won't be able to kill the toss so fast ), holding all ins, etc.
On May 24 2012 03:44 blade55555 wrote: Watched those games, stole his build, reaping the profits. It's nice, this build is great vs that stupid ass immortal build lol. Did 5 games with a teamate to make sure I had all the timings down, transitions (since you normally won't be able to kill the toss so fast ), holding all ins, etc.
On May 24 2012 03:44 blade55555 wrote: Watched those games, stole his build, reaping the profits. It's nice, this build is great vs that stupid ass immortal build lol. Did 5 games with a teamate to make sure I had all the timings down, transitions (since you normally won't be able to kill the toss so fast ), holding all ins, etc.
There is 3, for the most part accurate, first gas should be at 4:45. Sometimes muscle memory makes me forget so I get it 10 seconds late in one of those I believe. In general that's how I am doing it :D
On May 21 2012 20:29 KrakInDub wrote: Something doesn't make sense to me ~~
"I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate."
Toss get ALWAYS Gas, like every race, doesn't matter if he goes for Gate or Stargate play, but isn't gas a must anyways? So could you explain me please what do you mean exactly by this?
He's talking about the natural gas. If you position an overlord over the tosses natural gas, you can easily tell what type of build they're going for. No gas at the natural means they're doing some big gateway attack soon, and you'll need a roach warren to defend. One/Two gas at the natural means something tech-ish. Stargate, blink all in, wtfdtslol, etc.
On May 24 2012 03:44 blade55555 wrote: Watched those games, stole his build, reaping the profits. It's nice, this build is great vs that stupid ass immortal build lol. Did 5 games with a teamate to make sure I had all the timings down, transitions (since you normally won't be able to kill the toss so fast ), holding all ins, etc.
There is 3, for the most part accurate, first gas should be at 4:45. Sometimes muscle memory makes me forget so I get it 10 seconds late in one of those I believe. In general that's how I am doing it :D
Have you been playing this build against toss in general or specifically against what you think is a immo/sentry all-in? Just curious to see if its a niche build or maybe a more general build.
I think this would be pretty bad against 8 gate blink (which gets the 2 gas), but I'm not really sure. I had a lot of the same thoughts as you when I watched the games last night. I think getting a roach warren may be necessary, but you don't really have to build the roaches right away.
On May 24 2012 11:17 BoZiffer wrote: @Blade(lots of 5's)
Have you been playing this build against toss in general or specifically against what you think is a immo/sentry all-in? Just curious to see if its a niche build or maybe a more general build.
I think if you see an all in gateway timing incoming or whatever you should get a roach warren OR you can be super intense base trade. It's really up to you. I would say a roach warren is needed if he isn't doing any sort of tech. If he has a twilight and then a bunch of gateways I would definitely get a roach warren, if you don't think it'll finish in time make some spines.
had a fun base trade vs a toss today who did that immortal all in on cloud kingdom, muta/ling took out main + natural of his and everything, had I think 15 spines or something crazy all finished when he got to my natural and i was able to hold and thus won the game.
But this build isn't bad at all, actually I really like it this build on how nestea does it you don't have to go mutalisks. If you want you can go infestors but I don't like it vs that immortal push personally .
Really liking the build and glad I saw those games
It would be really crazy if a protoss, after watching these games gets the really fast two gas at his natural. Then he pulls the probes out of his main's gases and mines only at the natural's gases. Then he does a gateway all in. It would delay the push by like a whole minute, but if Nestea is completely skipping the roach warren, it could be an easy win.
On May 24 2012 13:34 jeeneeus wrote: It would be really crazy if a protoss, after watching these games gets the really fast two gas at his natural. Then he pulls the probes out of his main's gases and mines only at the natural's gases. Then he does a gateway all in. It would delay the push by like a whole minute, but if Nestea is completely skipping the roach warren, it could be an easy win.
Well it really depends on scouting though. Maps like Cloud kingdom,korhal,daybreak, etc. you can have a nice OL placement where you can check his gas timings on his natural and whether he is mining or not.
Personally, i would always sac at OL at the 6.50-7.00 mark to check his main base and his gas. Then, you can determine whether or not to throw down your roach warren.Plus, with the OL 25% speed increase you can get even more scout on their base a bit longer.
edit: hm weird i thought i was replying to a post where someone said they were scared of someone going 6/7/8 gate all-in with 32 probes. Must have been in a different thread lol. Anyways oh well... ill pretend.
what if they do a 6/7/8 gate all-in?
You see no gas at the natural, so you know it's either a all-innish play. It's either 4 gate +1, which is semi-all-innish and puts toss really far behind if it fails, or it's a 6/7/8 gate all-in and it's completely all-in and if you survive you win.
I was a little late in scouting it (or rather, reacting to it), so I put down a 7:00 roach warren, although I should have put it down at 6:30. I made a bunch of speedlings, since I had speed ready, to deny any pylon and initial units, and put a spine down at where I figured he would attack first, my third. These speedlings and the spine would buy me 30 seconds so I could get roaches in time.
However, he did a 6/7/8 gate all-in - to which you don't need a particularly fast roach warren, you just need it around standard timing (which I did). I overwhelmed it because instead of making a lair and roach speed like you do in a normal game, I made roaches and lings because I knew some sort of plain gateway attack was coming.
I easily crushed his push. He kind of outplayed me with a pylon in my main and multi-pronged attacks, but it didn't matter, I was so far ahead for simply not dying (not only did I not die, i lose no hatcheries, and less than 5 drones!). He tried to get blink and tried to set up for his third, but I had total map control so anytime he sent out a probe, it died. Eventually he got blink, and I totally forgot to get roach speed, so he was able to get map control for a fraction of a second, but once I got my roach speed, he was dead.
Would it have been easier to hold if I made a normal gas timing around 6:00 instead of 4:45 (right when you take your third, wow, dont forget that, I kept forgetting it when I was playing practice games to test out the build before going on ladder)? Well, maybe, because you are probably 3-5 drones behind for getting that quick ling speed. But, it's arguable that it's actually easier to hold to when doing nestea's build, because you got such a fast ling speed, which you forever deny his initial pylons and first units.
There's 2 part to nestea's build, and they sort of flow with eachother: 1. Instead of getting 2 gas at 6:00, you get 1 gas at 4:45, and then 3 more at 6:30. This results in quicker ling speed, but more economy since you aren't getting a roach warren (unless you scout no gas, in which case you need roaches, which you get reactively when seeing no gas at 6:30, but you can handle early aggression easier with the quick speed) 2. Because you skipped roaches and roach tech, you can get mutas super fast.
By getting quick ling speed, you don't need roaches if toss goes gasless. By getting no roaches, you can get mutas super fast and use lots and lots of lings in the early mid-game to hold any sort of aggression a Toss could do if he got gas.
the only thing that's questionable about this build, is if they do a 9:30 blink all-in. I imagine you get a reactive roach warren if that was the case, but being so heavy on lings, you should be okay against it, you just mass lings after 8:30 and then get roaches if you notice it's an all-in. I somewhat suspect that even if they did a blink all-in, you could progress as normal with this build and just base trade as if it was an immortal/sentry all-in.
I watched the GSL match vs JYP and it seems he gases at 4:45 then adds on 5 at 7:30 to 7:45. Are these wrong or was he delaying them because of stargate into robo?
What are others gas timings to transition into 4 gas speed roach?
I'm really surprised at just how well this build fares against 2 stargate openers. Pretty much every variant of 2stargate after FFE crumbles when it faces mutas with optional corruptor support that quickly.
On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote: this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
User was warned for this post
Learn the meta game before complain, the fast speed gives map control making it so any sort of push is super delayed because speedlings will get that probe most likely. Also the build is strong v. basetrade so it works well in that perspective too. With 80 ish drones spine will be possible for sure making this build really tough.
Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
On May 26 2012 03:20 ZeromuS wrote: Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
That is essentially what JYP did. He lost, because the muta count was simply too high for him to deal with. That said, it wasn't the sort of loss that looked completely hopeless: I'm sure there's ways to make it work.
On May 26 2012 03:20 ZeromuS wrote: Serious question: Isn't the strength of this build its novelty? I mean if protoss scouts the first gas with an obs or a pheonix if they open SG can't they then just take a safe third instead of attacking for a base trade?
This is a really tricky question. Part of the current strength of the build is novelty. It's not what everyone else is doing so people aren't as familiar with it. However, that's the case with every new build. This particular build, at first glance, can be tweaked to be solid enough to become a solid build.
Taking a "safe third" is also a very dubious term. I assume you think it's a safe third, because no 11 minute roach spam will be coming. However, you fail to account for the fact that roach spam isn't the only threat to a third base; it's just the one that everyone is talking about at the moment. Super fast muta, imo, is at least in the top 2 of threats to a fast third base, because of how spread out you become on fewer resources. Also, some people these days overly prepare for roaches and don't account for the possibility of super fast mutas in their build.
I will say that one potential "weakness" in the build is if your opponent opened stargate, blindly built up a phoenix count and somehow spotted the proxy spire. Phoenix with range can just murder the mutas out of the air and leave the Zerg in an unfavorable position.
In reference to the immortal/prism allin, almost all versions don't open with an obs, so you can't just reactively take a 3rd with that build.
I think i saw a similar build at TLO 's stream where he hided his spire and went immediatly to mutas.He got an evo with lings though which made it look like standard muta ling.
I guess we could wait and see if it comes up in any other tournament.
My friend recently sent me a replay which made me highly doubt this style versus the immortal all-in. First, a spinet from the interview:
This was your second UnD ever. It ended oh so quickly.
We shouldn’t make it so hard on the reporters and staff members on the first day, should we? (laugh). Actually, UnD is not a bad format for me. I like improvising on the spot. Not that I want to be back in it.
Speaking of improvising, tell us examples in today’s games.
The 10 pool I chose against July was completely unplanned and against Lure, I chose a base race because I knew I couldn’t win head on.
It isn't definitive, but these statements make it seem as if Nestea's base race was improvised and not at all planned.
Now, back to the replay I was sent, which I will not post for privacy reasons. It was a PvZ on Atlantis Spaceship with this exact muta build versus a not especially efficient immortal all-in.
First, some timings: An efficient immortal all-in is ready to hit at the earliest around 10:40. In the Nestea vs Lure replay, Nestea attacked Lure's front with10 mutas and a handful of lings at 11:40.
The point I'm trying to make is that if your opponent attacks as soon as possible, he will have a 1 minute head start in the base trade. In the Nestea game, Lure attacked at 10:50, which is relatively fast. He went for the 3rd but didn't kill it as fast as he could. He only got to the natural at 11:20 and only finished clearing up the spines at 12:00.
In the replay I previously mentioned, the Protoss gunned straight for the natural around 10:50. This is not the best choice versus roach lings, because flanks are the #1 think you have to fear when you do this all-in, but against this muta ling strategy, it's deadly. The zerg only had half the spines and almost instantly lost his natural and main. I would argue that making spines at your main ramp instead of your natural ramp is better, but it still stands that if your opponent heads straight for the natural instead of wasting time at the 3rd, you will have much more trouble.
The second problem with this build is that Antiga Shipyards, the map it was done on, is the shortest air distance between bases. Nestea got to his opponent's base abnormally fast on this map whereas on other maps, it would take him around 10 seconds longer, giving the Protoss even more extra time to base trade. On the other hand, rush distance doesn't matter to the Protoss with his warp ins.
Another thing to note, possibly the most important, is that because this strategy is now known, Protoss can now adjust their builds to handle this strategy. They won't waste time at the 3rd when they see no drones or units. They'll make cannons at their natural choke and warp in a round of stalker/sentry, which will be enough to deal with 10 mutas and ~30 lings. Also, once scouting no roaches, the Protoss could bolt straight for the natural. There are a ton of little adjustments Protoss can do to improve their all-in vs this.
All in all, this build can beat immortals all-ins, maybe even a majority of the time. However, I think it's a stretch to say that it's solid, especially against someone who's seen and dealt with it before.
I will say that one potential "weakness" in the build is if your opponent opened stargate, blindly built up a phoenix count and somehow spotted the proxy spire. Phoenix with range can just murder the mutas out of the air and leave the Zerg in an unfavorable position.
I actually lost a game to this. I've won most of my games when doing this build when they only made 1-4 void rays (dont ask why they made 4 void rays and no phoenix, that's mid masters for you), but I've lost 2 games when Toss actually made a lto of phoenix (funny, I never feared phoenix committment because it just means go infestors ezpz win fast hive).
I also think my macro is crap, my mutas came out like 2 minutes later than I should, and I had about 10 less drones than nestea. Like, really bad on my part.
I imagine if you do the build right, your mutas will overpower phoenix, and you can add corruptors, or just go towards infestors and fast hive (i wonder if you would need to add roaches for roach/infestor, or just go quicker hive). So I would think phoenixes actually aren't a great counter to this... but I did lose to it every time someone did it. My macro with the build was awful, so who knows though, just saying.
All in all, this build can beat immortals all-ins, maybe even a majority of the time. However, I think it's a stretch to say that it's solid, especially against someone who's seen and dealt with it before.
Thanks for the (non)replay analysis, that's very interesting. I've played 3 games and actually beat my first 2 immortal/sentry all-ins using this build, as well as someone vr/gateway all-in. The games were definitely not efficient, against, mid-masters, but thinking about what you said, yea, maybe mutas wouldn't work. ill try to upload reps soon, my sc2gears folder system is screwing up badly.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
I imagine if you do the build right, your mutas will overpower phoenix, and you can add corruptors, or just go towards infestors and fast hive (i wonder if you would need to add roaches for roach/infestor, or just go quicker hive). So I would think phoenixes actually aren't a great counter to this... but I did lose to it every time someone did it. My macro with the build was awful, so who knows though, just saying.
This isn't really true. Phoenix with the new range upgrade counter mutas quite well. Hero and MC have notably employed this.
I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
You have to put so much into phoenixes, then phoenix tech. Once I realize you are making more than 4 phoenixes, I just switch into infestors and corruptors. The corruptors keep my mutas alive, and eventually the infestors against your range upgraded phoenixes.
I've seen games with hero using the range upgrade, if I recall there was a game he did it on Metropolis last season. Obviously, if zerg doesnt get infestor tech until he suddenly sees 8+ range upgraded 3 base protoss who already started colossi production, your screwed.
I suppose it's more about the timings - it's not so clear cut as "phoenixes with range own mutas". It depends on Toss' economy and if his colossi production is slowed or not (ie did he start colossi production already), and if Zerg put a lot into mutas, and if he gets his infestation pit in good time. It seems to me, as long as you get infestation pit when you see more than 4 phoenixes, or when toss starts to go for phoenixes as anti-muta, and then transition towards fast hive and infestors, you should be fine, using a few corruptors to make sure those initial phoenix don't kill off your mutas until you get infetors out.
I mean... if you just go range upgraded phoenix on 2 base as a reaction to muta play, the zerg will just transition to infestors, and it doesnt really matter because phoenixes are largely useless (unlike, stalkers, which can be used for aggression or to secure the third) for a push. So the game is sort of in the same spot it was 4 minutes ago - toss on 2 base and can't secure his third or kill zerg, Zerg on 3 base but has map control and can tech up.
Alternatively, if Toss has set up his third, and is defending well and starts colossi production and uses blink stalkers at defense initially, and zerg commits more and more to mutas (20+), switching to range upgraded phoenix can be really strong. But it's kind of weird for Zerg to be making mutas after Toss has his third and is stabilizing against the mutas, and not have infestation pit started when he sees lots of phoenixes.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
On May 26 2012 13:04 Belial88 wrote: I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
You have to put so much into phoenixes, then phoenix tech. Once I realize you are making more than 4 phoenixes, I just switch into infestors and corruptors. The corruptors keep my mutas alive, and eventually the infestors against your range upgraded phoenixes.
I've seen games with hero using the range upgrade, if I recall there was a game he did it on Metropolis last season. Obviously, if zerg doesnt get infestor tech until he suddenly sees 8+ range upgraded 3 base protoss who already started colossi production, your screwed.
I suppose it's more about the timings - it's not so clear cut as "phoenixes with range own mutas". It depends on Toss' economy and if his colossi production is slowed or not (ie did he start colossi production already), and if Zerg put a lot into mutas, and if he gets his infestation pit in good time. It seems to me, as long as you get infestation pit when you see more than 4 phoenixes, or when toss starts to go for phoenixes as anti-muta, and then transition towards fast hive and infestors, you should be fine, using a few corruptors to make sure those initial phoenix don't kill off your mutas until you get infetors out.
I mean... if you just go range upgraded phoenix on 2 base as a reaction to muta play, the zerg will just transition to infestors, and it doesnt really matter because phoenixes are largely useless (unlike, stalkers, which can be used for aggression or to secure the third) for a push. So the game is sort of in the same spot it was 4 minutes ago - toss on 2 base and can't secure his third or kill zerg, Zerg on 3 base but has map control and can tech up.
Alternatively, if Toss has set up his third, and is defending well and starts colossi production and uses blink stalkers at defense initially, and zerg commits more and more to mutas (20+), switching to range upgraded phoenix can be really strong. But it's kind of weird for Zerg to be making mutas after Toss has his third and is stabilizing against the mutas, and not have infestation pit started when he sees lots of phoenixes.
I think the Stephano vs White-Ra game is just a much stronger piece of evidence in regards to the usefulness of phoenixes than Hero or MC's games where they were doing good already and had 3 bases and Zerg was being stubborn and his mutas were being less and less effective anyways (and it also seems to mirror my own experiences as well, I've won all of the limited games against range phoenixes after losing 10+ mutas by switching right into infestor, hive).
Stephano only said that right after the patch came out. He recently lost to Hero going ranged phoenix when he was going mutas. Phoenix are perfectly good and you should never lose them if you use them defensively to ward off mutas and discourage base trading. As long as you spend a good ratio of gas on phoenix as your opponent does mutas, you're dandy as Protoss.
These games show the other side of the coin to a style of ZvP that seems incredibly awesome because of obvious consistency.
There are two sides to this style, the ability to turn into mass roach Stephano play or the ability to go for a large Muta (Maybe even Infestor) play.
Keys to the Style:
1. Quick fast 1st gas, before 5 minutes. Reasonably timing Ling Speed and Lair.
2. Overlord sacing around 7 minutes. Need to see both Protoss gas count and key buildings. (Would consider using 2 overlords on some maps.)
3. Response depending on info into typical Roach/Evo and Lair, probably add on 2 more gases OR into 5 more gases Lair and Muta.
These two options to me seem able to put Zerg in a spot to win quite reliably as it is entirely reactionary.
An potential "fakes" are also pointless as any Protoss build which delays timing in favor of perfect unit comp will just get crushed under Zerg economy. (Delayed Immortal Push crushed by Hydras or Fake Stargate into 7 Gate won't beat Muta timing)
If the guessing game is removed from PvZ I feel the matchup is strongly in the Zerg favor.
I've heard Stephano say that the new range upgrade is useless. To quote something he said in regards to White-ra vs Stephano (stephano makes 20+ mutas., white-ra gets another stargate and range upgrade as a response, and kills every single muta when the mutas come back to harass, with like 8 phoenixes, in about 20 seconds... and eventually loses the game), "I knew I won the game because he spent so much on phoenixes, so I just go infestors and quick hive [because i know he won't push with colossi anytime soon]".
In my own personal experience as well, the phoenix range upgrade seems pretty useless. I just get infestors and hive immediately and make zero units (if you want I can dig up the replay, it wouldnt be hard, but like I said, sc2gears is currenylr frazzing for me).
Well, I've seen games where this happens and as soon as infestors out, the phoenix stay defensive and toss can take every base on his side of the map immediately because the mutalisks are no longer an offensive threat. He has enough time to get cannons and walls up before zerg has another option at the ready, and mutalisks can't dive into the main base while the army is out, because there are phoenix. The muta and phoenix cancel each other out, Toss needs a late game fleat beacon anyway, and Hero seems to find a way to work a few carriers in with his mothership when he gets phoenix range. In the first big engagement you can lift all of the infestors (before getting eventually fungalled to death) and that can change things, so they aren't an entirely wasted investment.
So after pouring over Blades replays I started trying this build and it works great. Robo allins no longer trouble me at all! I have found however that going muta against an air build just doesnt work.
As mentioned earlier if the toss plays smart with his phoenix you just lose and I cant get adding in corrupters in to work as they are just too slow. What I love about this build however is its versitility. I have found that going ling infestor into ultra instead of muta works really well against dedicated air openings.
If the toss skimps on ground unts or tries to get his third to quickly you can end his third while teching on three base+add 4th and threaten runbys to delay pushes. As soon as ultras are out the deathball dies. I was wondering what people thought of ling ultra against air builds zvp? Ones that transtion into standard robo/gate deathball that is.
^ So if Toss goes stargate, you respond by getting infestors? Do you bother getting roaches?
What level is this? Ultras generally aren't used in zvp due to zealots and immortals just owning them so hard.
I have had success against robo all-ins though - they will definitely kill a base but you should be in theirs with 15-20 mutas and a ton of lings. I don't bother getting spines, just make more lings and make sure to have drones out to be ready to plant far away bases.
I watched Nestea stream earlier, and he clearly goes 5:30 2xGas. So this is a special build he did. I'm curious in how stable he thinks it is and if he'll use it further in the GSL.
I think the best to deal with the timing is 1. To completely out macro the toss with pure roach ling 2. counter their nat with roach ling. I feel these 2 options are better because if your opponent isn't doing the exact immortal all in u might be introuble trying to use muta ling to defend agasint some heavy early gate timings. That is why i think the roaches are better because it defends about every all in and you don't have to try and hard counter it. Although the muta route is very strong agasint this 2 base timing push.
High master eu. It actually works pretty well. No roaches
Also nestea streams?
rarely.
I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage.
I think the best to deal with the timing is 1. To completely out macro the toss with pure roach ling 2. counter their nat with roach ling. I feel these 2 options are better because if your opponent isn't doing the exact immortal all in u might be introuble trying to use muta ling to defend agasint some heavy early gate timings. That is why i think the roaches are better because it defends about every all in and you don't have to try and hard counter it. Although the muta route is very strong agasint this 2 base timing push.
what?
Can you give some evidence to what you are saying? What are you saying exactly anyways? And you aren't using muta/ling to defend, you are using muta/ling to base trade if toss pushes out with immortal/sentry, and mutas just about always beat 2 base Toss in a base trade if you can get a good number out in time (ie 13+ when he pushes out). I don't think you understand the discussion at hand here.
i know u base trade with the mutas and its really good vs the immortal push i was just saying if your not 100% sure ur opponent is doing this exact 2 base immortal push then there is a high chance that you die to a early warp gate attack and roaches can prevent that. I totally agree that mutas are a very good way to deal with this I just think it can be a bit risky.
High master eu. It actually works pretty well. No roaches
Also nestea streams?
rarely.
I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage.
Single stargate doesn't seem like a good counter, double stargate I can see but single stargate unless he is blindly making 6 phoenix by the time your spire finishes you should be fine as you should be able to make 10+ mutalisks instantly.
But in general you need to be scouting and I do think you need a roach warren if you think he's doing some sort of gateway pressure or you need to make lings at certain parts.
This build isn't something you would want to do vs the same guy every game as, like every other build there are weaknesses that they can exploit if you do the same build and that's it.
Ling muta or roach ling base race only way to win this? Bull***. I fail to see how that makes a balanced game. It's like playing an impossible AI knowing that Colossus with +100 dmg instakill upgrades is going to hit at a scripted 12:00 minute and no amount of units you can make will beat it. therefore you need to hit his main.
You open with upgraded lings, through down a roach warren if theres no gas taken to hold zealot stalker all ins, if lairs up you could also through hydra den down. If you see the early gas then you can go for mutalisks and aim for a base trade, or go infesters and kill sentries while tech'ing to hive and going for ultras first
Fast upgrades on lings is strong at counter attacking, roaches are cheap but become useless against good force fields and well defended thirds. Mutas are great for base trade but if you are hit with blink stalkers or they were going HT you can't do much. Infestors open Hive tech option and allow defense play and as soon as ultras hit you can crush a protoss deathball and take all the bases while teching to Broodlords.
The ling upgrades with fast Ultras so strong, make banelings as well to kill zealots and sentries instantly. Infestors holds there army in place, and make queens to keep ultras alive so you can spend all gas on broodlords then you win.
^ I don't think upgrades are that useful in ZvP in general (just a personal opinion, I know every Toss obsesses about upgrades, but zerg is more about getting that crucial tech or mass of units out, not upgrades, we don't get benefits like +1 immortals own roaches in just 3 shots no matter if their armor is +0 or +3), but they really aren't useful in early game. You should get just a single upgrade (melee, carapace, or ranged, whatever), but you should not have 'fast' or double upgrades against an all-inning Toss, as they will never finish in time. +1 will finish in time for immortal/sentry timings, but for any other all-in, the upgrades will come AFTER you've died.
And someone going HT on 2 base isn't that great against mutas, they will have no stalkers support and you just avoid the storms.
Infestors aren't really a good choice against a 2 base toss unless he goes double stargate (and in that case, it's one of really 3 options that are viable), and as a standard, you should never get infestors against an all-inning toss (maybe this build might change that, but I don't know, no one does, because this build is really new, and only been done with mutas). Even if you did this build, i seriously, seriously, doubt that you could ever get infestors + enough army to hold any type of all-in, especially immortal/sentry.
And fast ultras are never used in high level zvp.
I'm not sure what you are commenting on or what post you are even addressing. You don't open with upgraded lings at all either, that's the whole point of this build, you SKIP upgrades and roaches in favor of super fast mutas. You get 'fast ups' and you completely defeat the purpose of this build, to get super fast mutas out.
I don't think you understand the conversation here, and I have no clue what you are talking about because none of it makes any sense to me (fast ultras in zvp? a high level protoss opening HT lol that's like opening ravens on 1 base? roaches as useless against immortal/sentry? banelings to counter sentries?).
So I'm starting to incorporate what Nestea did into my play. I'm not doing his build, but when I notice someone going immortal/sentry (because of a quick robo... it's not that you have to see it building, but eventually you'll notice with the overlord by the natural seeing immortals, or sentries, being made, or your overseer maybe if it isn't too late then).
I don't do nestea's build or anything, but what I do, is as soon as I notice he's going robo, I go for mutas and start massing lings. I don't make more drones or be greedier, I stop droning at the typical 8:30, but I go spire and grab 5th and 6th gas on my 3rd base (when normally you don't because of needing roach/ling so desperately).
Maybe NrGMonk is right that a 'good' toss will hit you at 11:30, but you know, on large maps like daybreak, they have to push out with it, you can't warp in immortals, and you use your lings to maybe force him back, and you can make spines at your third (where he'll likely attack first, but whatever) to delay him. He may be killing a base before mutas are out, but he won't have killed all your bases.
The idea is just build that spire asap, and get that gas asap, it's okay if he's killed a base because you have your mutas before he kills more than 1 base. And then your 15 mutas and hundred lings stream in and win the base trade.
Here's a game where I do it. I do the normal ZvP build, roach warren, evo, and +1 and all, nothing different, but I cancel roach upgrades and +1 as soon as I know it's immortal/sentry. If he's going 5 gate immortal macro for quick third, well, the mutas will wreck havoc, and if he's going all-in, yea he'll be killing a base when they pop, but I'll kill his before he kills mine, especially with the many lings.
I'm going to start doing this against immortal/sentry, because seriously, fuck making roach/ling and desperately trying to hold every time even when you know it's coming.
Yeah I definitely will be incorporating this a lot more into my play when I scout robo. I played similarly in the past, but stopped when players began to hard counter mutas and get better at this immortal/stalker/sentry play, but I feel it is viable as long as you don't commit to roaches at all and set up lings for a counter attack. If they make an obs (which some players do and definitely I feel should be standard) and see your spire they may take a third faster and go for blink, so be wary of that and possibly switch into roaches if they are cutting sentries and immortals.
High master eu. It actually works pretty well. No roaches
Also nestea streams?
rarely.
I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage.
Single stargate doesn't seem like a good counter, double stargate I can see but single stargate unless he is blindly making 6 phoenix by the time your spire finishes you should be fine as you should be able to make 10+ mutalisks instantly.
But in general you need to be scouting and I do think you need a roach warren if you think he's doing some sort of gateway pressure or you need to make lings at certain parts.
This build isn't something you would want to do vs the same guy every game as, like every other build there are weaknesses that they can exploit if you do the same build and that's it.
The thing is, if you also scout with your phoenixes - which you absolutely should - then you can proceed chronoboosting them out and be fine. I've seen players occasionally even add a 2nd stargate right away and take a quick third with only 1-2 cannons and zealots against the lings. Zerg will have zero roaches to pressure you, which makes it viable.
Therefore yes, zerg has to be sure that it's no stargate opener.
So if im reading this right, the way to beat sentry/immortal all in (Nesteas way) is to take early gas for ling speed and go mutas if you see gas at Ps nat?
Ive got a few questions to clarify since Protoss 2 base timings have been absolutely wrecking my shit lately.
1. What time would you start to take your 2/3/4 gas? 2. What do you do with your drones minibg gas after the first 100 gas? Keep them on and tech lair on next 100? Or pull off and drone hard? 3. Is the whole basis of this build to basically base trade if this build is coming and mass spines at nat? 4. At approximatey what time does Ps push hit Zergs base? 10 minutes. 4b. In this case how early would you need to tech to lair in addition to the spire+muta build time? 5. I have a big problem with +1 zealot pressure at my 3rd early on. Am i supposed to be using my speedlings in this case to overwhelm his first few zealots traveling across the map in addition to preventing him from throwing down any proxy pylons?
Sorry if some of the answers to these questions are basic and well known... Im only low masters and ive been out of the game for a minute due to diablo 3. I also apologize is these are answered in the replay. Im at work right now so i cant view them. Posting from phone.
On June 05 2012 02:00 sagefreke wrote: So if im reading this right, the way to beat sentry/immortal all in (Nesteas way) is to take early gas for ling speed and go mutas if you see gas at Ps nat?
Ive got a few questions to clarify since Protoss 2 base timings have been absolutely wrecking my shit lately.
1. What time would you start to take your 2/3/4 gas? 2. What do you do with your drones minibg gas after the first 100 gas? Keep them on and tech lair on next 100? Or pull off and drone hard? 3. Is the whole basis of this build to basically base trade if this build is coming and mass spines at nat? 4. At approximatey what time does Ps push hit Zergs base? 10 minutes. 4b. In this case how early would you need to tech to lair in addition to the spire+muta build time? 5. I have a big problem with +1 zealot pressure at my 3rd early on. Am i supposed to be using my speedlings in this case to overwhelm his first few zealots traveling across the map in addition to preventing him from throwing down any proxy pylons?
Sorry if some of the answers to these questions are basic and well known... Im only low masters and ive been out of the game for a minute due to diablo 3. I also apologize is these are answered in the replay. Im at work right now so i cant view them. Posting from phone.
If you scout a +1 zealot pressure incoming, you'll need to drop gas a bit earlier and get a roach warren. Not too confident that spine/ling would defend it very well.
445 1 gas, speed, lair (no lair first, that's the point of the quick gas) 7:30 3xgas 8:00. 5th and 6th gas.
Please, read the thread and watch the vods before posting basic questions that could easily be figured out by watching the vods and reading previous posts thhat answered these basic questions 10 times now, and move the discussion to application. If toss has no gas, get that 630 warren and 2nd gas and prepare to get a huge lead by holding a no tech timing.
Immortal/sentry pushes at about 1030 and hits a minute later. You can read my zvpp guide for help to your general zvp issues.,
When iphone makes an app that lets me view vods for free ill take advantage of it. Until then i dont need to read posts from people who pretend to be mods.
When iphone makes an app that lets me view vods for free ill take advantage of it. Until then i dont need to read posts from people who pretend to be mods.
If you don't want to bother reading previous posts, or even the OP which clearly addressed everything you asked, maybe you shouldn't be here.
edit: do you really need to know when to take your 4th,5th,6th gas when your at work on your iphone? Wouldn't you really just need to know that maybe when you are at a pc capable of playing?
And there IS a GSL app on the iphone, that lets you view the vods for free. Or you can go to the website, you should be able to view them even on 3G connection. Seriously, what are you doing. Your questions are either all answered completely in the OP, not to mention in the thread, and you post specific, build order related questions that would be answered immediately if you watched the video, and it's not like you need to know the answer to these questions until you got to a PC capable of playing SC2 (which would be able to play vods).
Being on a phone doesn't mean you can just ignore the forum rules and make terrible posts or be a jerk. Doesnt take a mod to figure that out, and holy shit it's annoying to answer the same question 10 times already. Literally, I've answered it 10 times already in this thread.
I would like this discussion to move forward to application, to maybe if Nestea will do this again in his up-coming games. Not shit that could be figured out on your own, I have never seen nestea try this build against 4 gate +1, but it's common sense he would make a roach warren at 6:30 if he saw no gas taken at the Toss natural.
Moon goes gas at 4:45, no roach warren, and deals with a 4 gate +1.
He sees no gas and the signs of the push with the 1 zealot/2 stalkers, so he masses speedlings. It delays his spire, but Toss is behind even further, and is unable to deal with the 'quick' spire given the positions both were in due to the 4 gate +1 pressure (and fast third of Toss).
Tested it out in my games, High masters SEA. It works fine against a standard sentry immortal stalker push with a expansion, but if its a all in than nope, it gets crushed. And its pretty hard to determined if its a all in or not since gates are all over the place.
^ what gets crushed exactly? why does it not work for you?
If you mass lings from 8:30, you should have a large enough army to delay his push, and even if you don't, wreck enough damage with just your lings in a base trade scenario, that it's fine your 15 mutas are popping when he's killed your third.
i mean that's how it's played out for me so far, and seems to be how nestea handled it. it has hard to tell if toss is all-inning with it or not.
id love to see reps where it worked and didn't work though.
High master eu. It actually works pretty well. No roaches
Also nestea streams?
rarely.
I stopped doing the build because single stargate into phoenixes seems to counter it, as well as blink all-ins. As far as I've tested it so far. It doesn't quite feel so stable. I've also run into trouble with 4 gate +1 timings. Yes, you can hold them off with that reactive 6:30 roach warren, or a spine to buy time while you mass speedlings and a 7:00 roach warren, but then you are just even with Toss when usually toss would be really far behind when doing a 4 gate +1 and not doing significant damage.
Single stargate doesn't seem like a good counter, double stargate I can see but single stargate unless he is blindly making 6 phoenix by the time your spire finishes you should be fine as you should be able to make 10+ mutalisks instantly.
But in general you need to be scouting and I do think you need a roach warren if you think he's doing some sort of gateway pressure or you need to make lings at certain parts.
This build isn't something you would want to do vs the same guy every game as, like every other build there are weaknesses that they can exploit if you do the same build and that's it.
The thing is, if you also scout with your phoenixes - which you absolutely should - then you can proceed chronoboosting them out and be fine. I've seen players occasionally even add a 2nd stargate right away and take a quick third with only 1-2 cannons and zealots against the lings. Zerg will have zero roaches to pressure you, which makes it viable.
Therefore yes, zerg has to be sure that it's no stargate opener.
Well sure, but as zerg you should be scouting for that and if you see phoenix you shouldn't make mutalisks. Make some corruptors (4-5 corruptors great at dealing with phoenix :D). If they throw down a stargate, will they just wasted money on it as I wouldn't be getting mutalisks once I see phoenix, especially once they scout my spire and keep making phoenixes.
On June 06 2012 04:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ what gets crushed exactly? why does it not work for you?
If you mass lings from 8:30, you should have a large enough army to delay his push, and even if you don't, wreck enough damage with just your lings in a base trade scenario, that it's fine your 15 mutas are popping when he's killed your third.
i mean that's how it's played out for me so far, and seems to be how nestea handled it. it has hard to tell if toss is all-inning with it or not.
id love to see reps where it worked and didn't work though.
I think he's trying to say it is risky if you aren't able to confirm some all-in, but by simply checking the gasses at the natural you can tell if they are going for an 8 minute attack or a 10 minute attack and adjust accordingly. Against an 8 minute attack you definitely need spines or more likely roaches, but otherwise you can just mass spines, sac the third and go heavy on a counter attack as the nestea game shows. Thanks for posting the Symbol game, by the way, it shows great transitions.
On June 06 2012 04:42 Belial88 wrote: ^ what gets crushed exactly? why does it not work for you?
If you mass lings from 8:30, you should have a large enough army to delay his push, and even if you don't, wreck enough damage with just your lings in a base trade scenario, that it's fine your 15 mutas are popping when he's killed your third.
i mean that's how it's played out for me so far, and seems to be how nestea handled it. it has hard to tell if toss is all-inning with it or not.
id love to see reps where it worked and didn't work though.
oh no... I just deleted my reps I will try and see if I can get recent games that work. I just lost the last one where the toss just goes for a base trade, couldn't take him out with my army and a base trade scenario works in his favor as my muta ball was not enough and he spammed cannons everywhere. it doesn't work on maps like ohana, korhoal where your lings just can't get a surround. Toss don't have to use multiple ff to lock down your lings and just 1a your mutas. Pretty map dependent build
I will be grinding ladder tomorrow, will provide replays
here's a replay where I did this against someone doing a solid immortal/sentry all-in. At 10:00 my spire finished, i was 70+ supply at 8:00, I did the build perfectly, better then nestea did in his games. Just like nestea, my spire finished at 10:00 and I would have 15 mutas at 10:33.
The guy did a solid immortal/sentry push and hit me. he even went straight for my natural, instead of my third (clearly read this thread lol). I was forced to make a ton of lings to try to delay his push, so I had no larva for my mutas, even though I had the money and was injecting fine.
I guess it just doesn't work.
however, here's a replay of me playing against the same guy, just before this game. instead of all-inning, he went for a third.: http://drop.sc/197482
Like other games I've played like this, this build just destroys any toss who tries to go for a third off of robo tech.
Really, this build will crush anything but a good immortal/sentry all-in. I'm guessing. It really requires good macro, you can't be below 65 supply at the 8:00 mark or else you'll just have nothing, and do nothing.
I've beaten a TON of toss who did bad immortal/sentry all-ins, and every toss who goes immortal/sentry into third. But against a really, really good toss who gets a perfect immortal/sentry timing, it doesn't work.
However I really don't see an answer to immortal/sentry. I don't like the idea of massing roach/ling, because if Toss is actually not all-inning but grabbing his third, it's GG because you made any number of roaches. There's a line with this - if you go mutas against all-in, you lose. If you go roaches against macro play, you lose. If you try to grab a spire and then mass roach/ling against an all-in, you lose. If you make any roaches against a fast third, you lose.
So I'm going to keep doing this build, because you can't tell if toss is all-inning or not with his robo opener (you can't tell if he has 5 or 7 gates), and with this build, you beat bad immortal/sentry pushes, and macro play, while with standard play i feel it's just near impossible to beat immortal/sentry all-ins and especially impossible to beat fast third immortal play.
I wish you could make a spire, and then just mass roach/ling when you realize toss is all-inning, but i feel that 200 gas is too tight against it. I really think it's stupid to make roaches against toss going immortal/sentry, I don't think you are going to win when he has the perfect counter to your roaches.
Maybe the answer is massing spines instead of lings with the mutas.
On June 01 2012 21:45 DarKcS wrote: Ling muta or roach ling base race only way to win this? Bull***. I fail to see how that makes a balanced game. It's like playing an impossible AI knowing that Colossus with +100 dmg instakill upgrades is going to hit at a scripted 12:00 minute and no amount of units you can make will beat it. therefore you need to hit his main.
I just want to echo this comment. This is quite troubling, IMO. Sure, Z, as a race, is intended to use their speed to run-by, contain, and so forth. And P has very hardy units, and all that. But I think it's problematic when a race is forced to resort to a base trade to respond to a particular build order. I think it's all a result of the fact that the counter to both the immortal and the stalker is the zergling, but the zergling is completely nullified by 1) forcefields and 2) the fact that since P moves in a ball, they do not provide the surface area for melee to be cost efficient. I have no idea what the solution would be in terms of balancing here. Perhaps something ludicrous like making stalkers take bonus damage from Psionic queens or some such nonsense.
Can anyone share experiences against the immortal/sentry+1 build using burrow move roaches?
You know, Hyun held an immortal/sentry all-in in the first time in the history of the GomTV, in the GSTL against NSHS_Sage, by going the 'standard' roach/ling pumped after 8:30, but instead of trying to outplay the opponent by engaging and micro'ing way way better, he just went for a base trade.
Similar principle to what nestea did, but with a more standard build that isn't so susceptible.
I don't think Nestea's 'answer' really works. As a few have pointed out, like nrgMonk, a good immortal/sentry all-in will push at like 9:00+ and hit you at 10:30, and start killing you before your mutas pop, especially if he just goes for your natural-main instead of your third.
I think the concepts are interesting though, if you see gas at Toss' base and no robo, or lack of an all-in, just skip the roach warren and roach upgrades.
blade55555 uploaded some replays in the zerg help me thread where he holds immortal/sentry by base trade, like hyun did. Burrow move comes way too late to stop a roach/ling all-in, the closest I've seen it used was some zerg did it in the GSL, he lost his third, but the Toss was stupidly aggressive, lost his entire army to mass roach when he should have backed off, and just died, but that was Toss being an idiot rather than good play. Personally, I've tried double roach warren a few times to try to hold immortal/sentry, but it just failed miserably.
I don't think it's 'troubling' in terms of balance though that the only way zerg can hold this is by base trading. That implies that there's some coinflip involved, and there isn't. The whole basis of muta play in all 3 match-ups, at certain times, is based on base trading, or at least doing way more damage than you receive if the opponent moves out when they shouldn't. The idea behind nestea's answer and Hyun's roach/ling base trade answers, is that against an immortal/sentry all-in, you will win the base trade 100%, so Toss better not move out.
I think the metagame is still evolving though on immortal/sentry all-in, so i wouldn't call it imbalanced yet. I think a lot of people already agree that it's strong as fuck and much easier to execute than defend though, like Naniwa's comment on the build (and khaldor and wolf), but I think it's still a little to early to call balance. There was some zerg in the GSL who was always getting roach drops, it seemed like a pre-emptive way to beat immortal/sentry and if they don't immortal/sentry, just a great way to do damage as an aggressive zerg, and then there's this nestea style, and then Hyun's base trade style, and not every toss is doing yet every single game (i dont know why, but they don't, beats me - although 4 gate robo into fast third or fast third behind cannons, robo is strong as fuck too).
Hey, not really sure where to put this since there isn't exactly a "How to beat imortal/sentry all in?" thread. So I'll put this here.
In light of blade555555's comment that you beat immortal/sentry all-in by doing the standard 8:30+ roach/ling response but base trading instead, and Hyun vs Sage GSTL where he beats the immortal/sentry all-in doing that (the first and only time he beats a good immortal/sentry all-in, the only other time it loses is because the guy forgets 2 immortals at home and proceeds to lose all his sentries when not paying attention at the first engagement), I proceeded to do the same thing:
8:30+ roach/ling on 4 gas, but prepare to base trade, and when Toss pushes out, you stop sending army to prepare to backstab, but instead mass spines at your natural, get ready to abandon third, and the rest of the army you make you leave at home.
On July 03 2012 05:12 EnhancedZ wrote: Looking for ideas/suggestions to halt the 2-base Immortal All-In and how to follow up with it.
Right now I've been taking my 3 bases and following up with a fast bane bust. I don't commit to the bust but I push with it in order to bait out FF's and possibly snipe the forge while the upgrade is in progress. Meanwhile, behind it and after I throw up a ton of spines and get lair. I've been messing around getting fast roach burrow-movement, infestors, hydras.. But each time I ultimately fall.
Right now my big problem is just defending the push and I'm more or less looking for ideas as to what other people are doing.
I wouldn't recommend the bane bust. Whether you do it all in or not that is less drones and the protosses immortal push will be that much stronger and probably not holdable due to you having a lot less drones then you should by the 8 minute mark.
If you know the 2 base immortal all in is incoming what I have been doing is making roach/ling and moving them in a hidden spot so I can go for a base trade.
Once I scout he is going all in (no third, lots of gateways and robo) I make a ton of spines at my natural. Once he pushes out I pull everything from my third to my natural and any units I make from there go to defend with a ton of spines and then protoss loses as he's in a bad spot. There are a ton of roach/ling destroying his natural and his army is at my natural with a ton of spines to where he can't bust.
I haven't lost to that immortal push since I have been doing this and it's really effective. But be warned you will get some flames saying how faggy you are to do this :D.
However the guy was so terrible that his push was just 2 minutes late (just really bad guy i guess), but I knew he was all-inning when he didn't plant an expo before 9:00, especially when none was made by 10:00, as well as my overseer clearly seeing him making more sentries and immortals. I saw only 3 gateways or something with my overlord sac so I thought he was going fast third, but I realized otherwise when he didn't have an expo by 9:00 (or at least prepare to by making pylons out there, moving out a probe, etc).
He tries to come all the way back home when I counterattack, i catch his forward pylon, he was just terrible. By the time he arrived, I had more than enough army to simply straight up crush him, and I didn't even need the mass spines at my natural, nor did I have to abandon my third. He engages in a choke (wtf), attacks the rocks (wtf), doesnt make ff (wtf). Just a really bad guy.
But had he done it right, I think I still would have won - I'd lose my third but keep my drones, he'd lose his natural, and then I'd eventually have enough army to win, and deny his natural forever while retaking my third.
Really cool stuff, I'm going to keep doing this method. I also reached 78 supply at the 8:00 mark, a personal best for me, so that was really impressive in my opinion, so I think that had a lot to do with why i won. I notice that all-ins are much easier or harder based on what you hit at 8:00, and if you are ~65 it's a struggle, but if you are 70+, its really really easy.
However I really don't see an answer to immortal/sentry. I don't like the idea of massing roach/ling, because if Toss is actually not all-inning but grabbing his third, it's GG because you made any number of roaches. There's a line with this - if you go mutas against all-in, you lose. If you go roaches against macro play, you lose. If you try to grab a spire and then mass roach/ling against an all-in, you lose. If you make any roaches against a fast third, you lose.
If you make roach/ling in preparation for counter-attacking against immortal/sentry all-in and they just take a third, you can drop them. I've been using this after seeing symbol do it and I think it's the best way to play against immortal/stalker/sentry.
The biggest problem was JYP losing so many units without doing the critical damage to make it worthwhile, the first zealot didnt get the creep tumor, then the stalker + zealot got cleaned up by speedlings, the void ray phoenix pressure did nothing but he lost units there too. He then overcommited too many zealots to taking out the 4th once he knew mutas were on the field and they got cleaned up almost for free as well. I dont think it was the build by Nestea which was revolutionary and allowed for the romping you saw but more a collection of clutch defensive moves by Nestea and lacklustre attacks by JYP. Nestea is the sort of player who knows exactly how to maintain and take advantage of such a situation and he pressured JYP when he knew he couldnt hold it dealing real economic damage with the muta's and taking none in the earlier attacks himself.
Theres no substitute for solid play. Nestea had it in spades.
On July 04 2012 10:51 tsango wrote: The biggest problem was JYP losing so many units without doing the critical damage to make it worthwhile, the first zealot didnt get the creep tumor, then the stalker + zealot got cleaned up by speedlings, the void ray phoenix pressure did nothing but he lost units there too. He then overcommited too many zealots to taking out the 4th once he knew mutas were on the field and they got cleaned up almost for free as well. I dont think it was the build by Nestea which was revolutionary and allowed for the romping you saw but more a collection of clutch defensive moves by Nestea and lacklustre attacks by JYP. Nestea is the sort of player who knows exactly how to maintain and take advantage of such a situation and he pressured JYP when he knew he couldnt hold it dealing real economic damage with the muta's and taking none in the earlier attacks himself.
Theres no substitute for solid play. Nestea had it in spades.
Saw coca doing this in the EG masters cup thing; also added a deceitful infestation pit, a good bluff vs high level players as with the proxied spire they are going to be wondering where the gas is going. I am sorry not to be able to list who it was; i can't remember but it was on entombed valley.
On July 05 2012 02:12 WorldEater wrote: Saw coca doing this in the EG masters cup thing; also added a deceitful infestation pit, a good bluff vs high level players as with the proxied spire they are going to be wondering where the gas is going. I am sorry not to be able to list who it was; i can't remember but it was on entombed valley.
That's a great idea, especially as pure muta play is often not really viable even if you can surprise someone with it, so you need to transition to infestor/hive tech quickly anyway. It's not a huge investment and if your opponent is good enough to scout and react to seeing that (often colossus is popular vs infestor), it could make your mutalisk attack and harass very effective early on.
On May 21 2012 20:29 KrakInDub wrote: Something doesn't make sense to me ~~
"I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate."
Toss get ALWAYS Gas, like every race, doesn't matter if he goes for Gate or Stargate play, but isn't gas a must anyways? So could you explain me please what do you mean exactly by this?
If he goes 2 gas its a timing if he goes 1 gas its heavy zealot stalker aggression, if he goes 4 gas it's tech. Its pretty simple..
ive been going spire whenever i see stargate vs protoss. phenox are no match for mutas. Just keep them in your base around spores or queens untill you get more then 10. if you see them keep massing phoenix, expand like a mofo and make 1 or 2 corruptors. ez pz
You know, in light of what blade55555 has said about base trading immortal/sentry, and re-watching that game, i think you can actually do nestea's anti-immortal sentry build.
So blade55555 and the only pro zerg to hold immortal/sentry at gom, do it by base trading with roach/ling, and massing spines in the nat at 9:00+
Nestea is doing that - he is massing spines in his nat at 9:00, and all future units stay at home. When the attack hits at 10:30, his mutas are popping from his third but he's just hitting the base, as he should be. Monk says "well the guy just wins by going to the natural instead of the third" but you can't do that, the spines are there and you don't have enough warped in yet, so you have to go to the third.
I think nestea's build may work against immortal/sentry, even if you go straight to the nat. Basically, you just have to base trade against it and mass spines in your nat, the fact nestea did mutas is just an aside.
On July 08 2012 18:12 Belial88 wrote: You know, in light of what blade55555 has said about base trading immortal/sentry, and re-watching that game, i think you can actually do nestea's anti-immortal sentry build.
So blade55555 and the only pro zerg to hold immortal/sentry at gom, do it by base trading with roach/ling, and massing spines in the nat at 9:00+
Nestea is doing that - he is massing spines in his nat at 9:00, and all future units stay at home. When the attack hits at 10:30, his mutas are popping from his third but he's just hitting the base, as he should be. Monk says "well the guy just wins by going to the natural instead of the third" but you can't do that, the spines are there and you don't have enough warped in yet, so you have to go to the third.
I think nestea's build may work against immortal/sentry, even if you go straight to the nat. Basically, you just have to base trade against it and mass spines in your nat, the fact nestea did mutas is just an aside.
Yeah, as long as you have muta + ling you'll easily be able to crush them before they can kill all your buildings. There's a good chance you can just come home after doing enough damage to them, too.
If you see 2x gas mining from natural, where is his gas going really? Stargate/Robo/DTs. If he goes stargate make corr + mutas, 1x corr per 4 phoenix then mutas.
You can fend off any early 1+ zealot with a spine+few lings and the queens w/ good micro.
If you don't see any gasses at the natural around the 7ish min mark, 6-8 Gate all in, but that should've tipped you off cause the forge being worked. = drop roach, standard timing at 7 min even if you go early 1 gas. Forge not being worked? Stargate Evo at 7 mins, also standard.
This works even better vs 6-8 gate all ins due to speed is very early so you can delay proxy plyons for timing of reactionary spines.
I would make a guide for my ZvP, I have MANY styles but I have no time for that right now... instead I thought I'd just chip in by Belial cause he is a very productive Zerg player for TL.
Top 300 NA Masters player's input, this is all off protoss who can play aka high masters/GM. Lower players wouldn't have crisper timings so you'd be thrown off and lose to dumb shit like the toss forgetting 1+ with his 6-8 all in that hits at the 8-9 min mark, which is standard but easily crushed if I didn't make a spore in each base... LOL. Herp derp.
i was only lucky the toss was really bad and went back when my lings counterattacked (i dont know why, I wasn't going to break his wall anytime soon...), but if he had pushed, I would have won anyways because I had massed spines in my nat in time.
I think just in general against immortal/sentry, you need to abandon your third no matter what, even if you go roach/ling and plan to fight head on (see leenock vs mvptails gsl recently, he loses the third and gets FF owned, but eventually cleans up the army with the help of drones, broodlings, and queens, and wins the game because despite losing his third, he cleaned up all of tails army, so the game is sort of reset). Either you base trade with ling/muta or roach/ling and mass spines in your nat, or fight head on and know you'll lose your third but will clean up the opponent's army.
In this game I hit 74 supply at 8:00, so I macro'd really good. I like this style of nestea muta vs robo because if they go 5 gate robo expand, I dont think they can hold it either.
I'd love to actually test out with someone who is good, this build with. Just PM me, I'd love to test out ways to beat immortal/sentry, and I do think this muta style is viable. This discussion maybe should be renamed to something like [D]ZvP How to handle Immortal/Sentry? or [D]ZvP Ways to beat Immortal/Sentry?
Ok slightly newbie question, but what's a good macro hatch timing? I typically get one at 9:30, but that won't help me for shit against a sentry/immortal all-in. By taking a gas at 4:30, I can get my spire done at 9:45 consistently, and if I was more proactive on gas timing followups, I could get 12+ mutas to pop at 10:15, which gives me time to fly to their base. However....do you really need to basetrade? If you engage before his first or second stalker warp-in, 12-15 mutas could be enough to flat out kill the push, or at least snipe most of the sentries. Then it's ~40 lings against a few immortals and stalkers...EZPZ.
Why basetrade when you can have close to 15 mutas by the time they attack? Snipe the sentries, clean up with lings...seems like a better answer than basetrading! I'd rather be in a 4base vs. 2base than 2base vs 1base...
Please tell me why you guys basetrade instead of engage/snipe sentries
Edit: After playing around and getting massively supply blocked at 70 @ 7:50, I found money for a macro hatch @ 8:30 which got me a lot more lings ~11:00. I must say I really like a 6:45 lair hahaha. Also, if they're late by only 30 seconds, I'll get ~5-6 more mutas, and 20-30 more lings, which is just fucking awesome I might add. I don't understand how this all-in is so powerful, even against this style forcing a basetrade.
Most pros get it 8:00 - 8:30. 4:30, what exactly is that in supply? With a standard 3xgas at 6:30, I usually can get mutas out at 11:00, which is about when Toss has killed my third hatch, but I'll have mass spines in my nat (made so toss can't go straight to my main with his initial army) and 80+ lings.
Yea, you need to base trade if you go mutas. That's the whole point of mutas, it's to base trade if the opponent ever pushes out. But it can actually get to a point where you could use your mutas, once you have 20+, to simply straight up fight the Toss army, as long as you kept most of your lings (which you should have). I've done this before, but honestly, base trading is much more easier and much more reliable. You could attack him with the first 12-15 mutas, but the problem is that he'll barely survive, and you'll barely survive, the battle, and so he still has the same imortal/sentry army that was a problem at 9:30, and you only have ~10 mutas, which won't be enough to really solidly base trade with. It's better to engage, if at all, once you have 20+ mutas, and just go base trade instead of fight him. At least kill his economy first before deciding to engage, that way he can't remake his army, but why fly alllll the way back home to fight him when you can just finish up his bases and win the game?
So yea, you can't really engage his army cost effectively until you have 20+ mutas, so you might as well use your initial mutas to tear down his econ instead of just sitting at home doing nothing, and then if you do engage, it won't be particular cost effective, and you probably won't kill off his army, if you do it won't be cost efficient as he reinforces, and at best he'll lose his army but make cannons at home and he'll still be in the game. And it'll be you on 2 base, vs him on 2 base, and you can expand to your third, but by the time your third is up, he can maybe make enough blink stalkers to take his third, and he won't be too far behind.
So just base trade. It's a sure thing, whereas engaging is not.
Ok, I'll aim for 8:30 macro hatches in the future.
Here's a replay vs AI I actually got a gas at 4:20, 24 supply. I had no larvae (upon further analysis I had 1, which I spent a few seconds later), I had enough money, so I threw it down. 6:40 lair, 8:00 spire, if I didn't get MASSIVELY supply blocked at 70 at 8:00, I would've hit 76+ supply. I play a little greedy (it's vs AI come on, it's not like they're gonna attack me anytime soon), but if I managed larvae/overlords/3rd base gas timings better, I could've had 15 mutas at 10:15, and a bunch of splings. That's a lot of mutas. When a 7gate sentry/immortal push hits, doesn't it have ~6 sentries, 3 immortals, and +7 stalkers per warp in? I feel like I could run in with the lings as a meatshield, snipe the sentries, then his army dies and he loses the game. My hatch won't be dead until closer to 11:00, which gives me time for another round of 4 mutas and some splings.
I'm sure there's a reason the god Nestea basetraded instead of engaging, but I don't see it. Yeah, it's nice to kill his bases, but following Day[9]'s advice, try to win at hive. Instead of thinking "How can I kill him now?", think "How can I win at hive?". It's better to keep your stuff alive than to kill his! ^This is just my mentality on playing to improve, if you want to win I'm sure that a basetrade is GUARANTEED to win the game, but the game will be over by 12:00, which is kind of lame IMO.
I think ideal gas timings are: 1x gas @4:20-4:30 3x gas @7:20-7:30 2x gas @8:00 or something. Please watch the replay and provide any advice! ^^
I think this build should be the new go-to build, because as you have said in this thread, with minor adaptations you can win against any build.
^ Yes, you want to try to win at hive in a normal game.... btw day9's stuff is geared toward low level.
But the opponent is doing an all-in. If he's doing an all-in, then you win the game straight up if he doesn't kill you. So you need to aim to win the game at a certain point, ie by defending somehow.
Immortal/sentry is just such a strong ground army that you can't fight it straight up, and even if you go mutas, Toss can still actually win a straight up fight with lings and 15+ mutas. That's why you base trade, 15 mutas isn't going to stop immortal/sentry with reinforcing stalkers.
I get what you are saying, and if you want, you could just mass lings, let Toss kill your third, and then once you have 20+ mutas and a ton of lings, when he tries to bust up your ramp with 5-10 spines, engage there with your army, then go on to his base, but you aren't going to be ahead as if you base trade, because you'll lose most of your mutas, he'll lose his army, but he'll make reinforcing stalkers at home, and cannons, and you won't really be as ahead as if you simply base trade and restart the game.
I've actually had 2 games where I did win the game with hive tech though - we base trade, he saved enough money and made enough stalkers that I couldn't engage him with 25+ mutas, made cannons and got blink and archons and storm off 1 base, but because he never really lost any of his initial units, he actually had a decent army. I rebuilt 3 bases all the way from scratch, mining out his bases actually, and won the game with broodlords.
Lings won't 'snipe' his sentries, he'll have enough to stop lings from taking over his army. You need spines also, or else toss just goes to your main and then he'll win the game.
I don't use Nestea's build, what I do is a standard 3 hatch with 3xgas at 6:30, but if I see Toss is going robotech, I'll just not make a roach warren or roach upgrades (depends if i started roach warren or not, sometimes toss might do 4 gate +1 pressure which you kind of need roaches against, but in that case you see toss going gasless and he gets the robo later), and get 6xgas by 8:00, mass lings from 8:30+, and then some spines in natural to make toss go to my third instead of main. He'll kill my third, but I'll have 20 mutas in his base at 11:20, when he's walking up my natural, and I'll have about 60+ lings help tear it down. I prefer spire to roach/ling against immortal/sentry because roach/ling just sucks if toss goes robo expand.
Really? Man, he always analyzes pro's styles so I figured it was geared towards diamond/masters Ok I understand and agree. I guess I was just underestimating Toss, I figured that it would be 40 lings and 15 mutas against 7 stalkers and 6 sentries, which would be an extremely one-sided fight. Make that number 14 stalkers and not so much. Good to know, Protoss has the ability to build an unbeatable ground army by 9:30 in the game O.o
Why would you do that standard opening? Getting gas hurts your supply by probably 4 @ 8:00, and it gets you a faster lair while keeping you safe from all-ins. Also, every toss goes robo in my experience, so why not do get a faster spire? Also, 6:30 roach warren + speedlings make gateway all-ins pretty easy to hold, speedlings just eat stalkers for breakfast.
In other words, do you like 3x gas at 6:30 into spire better than 4:30 gas into fast speed/lair, or do you open with 3x gas because you normally don't go spire (ie. you scout something that isn't robo or stargate...mass archon? lol)
I just fail to see the advantage of taking such late gas if you're going mutas against almost all Protoss players anyway. Also, if you don't get all-inned, 20+ mutas by 11:00 is gonna take every Protoss by surprise haha. I can't wait to get home and ladder more!
On August 05 2012 19:25 Denzil wrote: Would you consider this build still viable?
Has any Protoss taken notice of it and made adjustments to their all in or have they ignored it?
yes. it's my standard response when toss goes robo. If he is all-inning (pushes out around 9:30, no third taken obviously, lots of gateways in main if I care to sac an overlord, usually dont), I mass spines when toss pushes out and be ready to abandon my third. If he is taking his third (hasn't moved out by 9:30, clearly posturing towards his third), then I'll make a macro hatch instead of mass spines, take my fourth. In both cases I mass lings from 8:30 (even robo expands can do some +1 zealot pressure will which end you if you dont have either a shitton of lings or roaches, and since I dont make a roach warren if I see a robo early enough, I need a shitton of lings), and get 6xgas by 8:00 and get spire asap.
Due to NRGmonk's comment earlier in this thread, I stopped doing this build for a short while, but after seeing some stuff about 'just base trade against immortal/sentry' in regards to base racing against immortal/sentry but with the standard roach/ling, and the use of spines in the natural to make sure toss can't go straight into your main, I came back to it and realized that this does work still, and that while NrgMonk's comment is a valid concern, about toss busting up into your main and winning, the point of massing spines in your nat is to make sure that if toss tries to bust into your main before he has 2-3 more warp-ins with his immortal/sentry core, he'll lose everything to your popping mutas, lings and 15+ hatch mutas, so, it's still viable.
Toss should be about done killing your third hatch when your mutas pop if you play standard, with nestea's quick single gas you will have mutas about 30 seconds earlier, but you can still fight immortal/sentry is 11:00 mutas, as long as you made spines in the nat, which you do even with a quick lair,spire anyways.
That, and I really think it's just the logical answer - if Toss goes immortal/sentry, you aren't going to beat it with roaches, and you should logically make the counter, mutas. Plus, if toss ends up going robo expand, you are just fucked if you massed roach/ling because immortal/sentry fast third just owns mass roach/ling (it's not easy, but i think most toss have it figured out now) and you are just really behind for investing that much into roach tech. I guess nowadays you just get roach tech and only make lings and make roaches if toss pushes out, as you want to be ling heavy to hold the all-in if you plan to take it head on with roach/ling, but I am still rather uncomfortable as much as even getting roach speed and +1 missile if Toss is actually playing quick third.
On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote: this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola!
That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build.
well then you make an all in not as strong and lose gas because you have to transfer the probes BUT you can hit that muta greedy build to a death blow... HOWEVER! you have no observers, Zerg have lings out on the field (and even with speed with this build) so there is no way you are going to scout the spire or even the build in general other than knowing that it's on 3 bases without a observer or show the zerg that you have acess to loads of gateway units. If the zerg see more gateway units he knows that you do not go stargate or robo and he will in a instant throw down his roach warren.
So you can blind mind game 1 specific build that isn't even the standard meta build.
It's not that I will just shot down your idea but I think you will need to add a longer thought process with some ingame practice to come up with a better solution