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Holy shit, GSL up and down, Nestea vs Lure, and Nestea vs JYP.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls3/vod/67537
first game, the game in question, is free.
Nestea
Fast third vs FFE. Nestea goes for a quick 1st geyser right after third is planted, and gets a quick ling speed, and does not make a roach warren or evo, and goes for 10+ mutas that pop at 10:00, relying on base trading to beat all-ins and scouting a gas to confirm no need for a warren. He crushes a stargate into fast third opener, and an immortal/sentry all-in.
There are 2 notable things:
1. nestea gets a really quick gas, around 5:00, right around his third timing. This is almost similar to the gas timing of zenio's 3 hatch ling/bane all-in. You would think it would hurt his supply, but nestea actually gets up to 70+ in both games in the 8:00 mark (78 in 2nd). I think this is because he isn't maynarding any workers to his third, instead maynarding to his natural, and then just rallying new drones to his third.
2. Using his quick ling speed for defense, nestea gets no roach warren or evo chamber!! this is insane! It's incredibly greedy, but I think he's able to do this because he sees Toss get gas (maybe even the robo? have to rewatch to see what he scouted), meaning no quick 4 gate or plain 6 gate all-in.
In the game vs JYP, he proxies his spire, and it's against stargate play, using incredibly greedy play of no roaches, in order to afford a ton of mutas, quick, and hard.
it was the first game, so we all probably thought "okay, well, that was risky, but there's no way that would work if someone did a gate all-in, and someone going stargate, into fast third, on entombed where every toss goes fast third, is a predictable metagame build, so there's no way he'd survive an immortal sentry all-in'.
Lo and behold, Lure does a textbook immortal/sentry all-in. Nestea masses spines in his nat, giving no fight to hold his nat, and is clearly preparing for a base trade right away. He easily wins the base trades with mass lings, and even had 2 drones out on the map before lure pushed out.
I wonder how strong this build really is, and what nestea's thought process is behind it, but it'd be really interesting if this was the future of zvz. I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate.
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Seems like an amazing build, gj writing this
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well the first game against JYP, his spire was hidden, and he made 17 at a time. So I wouldn't say its useful if a protoss goes air unless you hide the spire. The second scenario is more understandable, but I wouldn't consider this new. Its just 3 base muta ling. :/
Not trying to shoot you down, but I would say we need more examples of protoss going air before we can confirm this build is good enough to be standardized.
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Something doesn't make sense to me ~~
"I wonder what it's weakness is - you see toss get gas, you don't get a roach warren. If there's no gas, you get a roach warren. Fast mutas, ezpz, even against stargate."
Toss get ALWAYS Gas, like every race, doesn't matter if he goes for Gate or Stargate play, but isn't gas a must anyways? So could you explain me please what do you mean exactly by this?
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gas at the natural obviously
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just a side note: if you're going to do this check that the Toss is actually mining gas from the extra geysers. A friend of mine loves to throw down the 4th assimilator and then does not actually mine gas from it. He uses to trick me into thinking he's going some sort of tech build and then he slams me with some sort of 2base all-in (e.g. 6gate 3immortal push)
And you're talking about all 4 geysers or just 3?
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I haven't watched the games yet unfortunately, but how did Nestea defend against (if there was any) +1 Zealot pressure without a Roach Warren?
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By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
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Italy12247 Posts
On May 21 2012 20:38 NguN wrote:
I haven't watched the games yet unfortunately, but how did Nestea defend against (if there was any) +1 Zealot pressure without a Roach Warren?
There wasn't any, it looked like he was playing completely unsafe against it because he saw two fast gasses at the natural.
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On May 21 2012 20:39 IamPryda wrote:
By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both
What are the timings i need to care of than? Cause he will get all gas sonner or later anyways.
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On May 21 2012 20:40 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:38 NguN wrote:
I haven't watched the games yet unfortunately, but how did Nestea defend against (if there was any) +1 Zealot pressure without a Roach Warren? There wasn't any, it looked like he was playing completely unsafe against it because he saw two fast gasses at the natural.
its not unsafe at all. if he scoutes fast 2 gases and sees probes mining from it there cant be 4 gate pressure since toss spends his minerals on gases + 6 probes mining gas.
i really like the idea of getting a REALLY late roach warren (or non at all) vs fast 2 gas builds since you just dont need it and it costs 4 drones which is huge.
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Italy12247 Posts
On May 21 2012 20:44 KrakInDub wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:39 IamPryda wrote:
By no gas he means his natural expo, it's the sign of trying to take a really fast third or a gateway all in without tech which you need to a roach warren for both What are the timings i need to care of than? Cause he will get all gas sonner or later anyways.
6-7ish minutes i'd say. @poster above me: i honestly don't know i don't really use +1 zealot pressure, but what would happen if p went for +1 zealot with a void ray?
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I saw the Lure game, what made it really cool for me was:
1.Khaldor telling a story about how he asked Nestea about his muta play and he said that 9 out of 10 games he practices infestor but in a match he just kind watches himself going muta, hahah.
2. how he killed the wall off with his mutas to let the lings kill everything in the base, then chased probes with mutas. At first I thought shit why isnt he hilling the probes with his mutas!!
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this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
User was warned for this post
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On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote:
this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it.
he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
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On May 21 2012 20:53 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote:
this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it. he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases.
Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola!
That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build.
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On May 21 2012 21:09 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2012 20:53 Decendos wrote:On May 21 2012 20:50 GDbushido wrote:
this is the same as the 2base muta build all zergs used to love over a year ago, except its even greedier because of the 3rd. any kind of 6/7 gate timing will murder it. he scouted fast double gas. you cant do 6-8 gate timing with that fast 4 gases. Let's say you normally do a quick 8 gate timing. Instead of getting 8 gates, get 7, then you can afford the extra Assimilators. Then take Probes off mining gas in the main, and put them on gas on the in natural (generally Zergs are scouting the gasses in the natural) and Vola! That should hit more than hard enough to take out this kind of build.
well yeah but you as P dont know whether Z build a roach warren. so you cut 1 gate + Z can sacc ovi and scout your gates + delay your proxy pylon with speedlings. but yes this could potentially be good vs non roach warren builds like nesteas.
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The counter to mutaplay is a fast third, isn't it? Because of roachplay, Protoss rather try to go for Immortal pushes than fast thirds, and Nestea counteracts that, by going for mutalisk play instead of roach play.
Sounds like a metagame thing to me.
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How many gases did nestea go up to when going for the mutas? Did he stay on four gases or did he go all the way up to six? Playing around with this, it's looking pretty viable.
I assumed nestea was going up to six gases for mutas - seems you need to grab the additional gases at seven minutes, when the lair is still morphing. Seven minutes would also be the time you suicide in an overlord to check on the protoss, so this means that you can make the decision of whether to go for roaches or mutas on a purely reactionary basis: see both gases at seven minutes, go for mutas - otherwise go for roach/ling. The only adjustment is whether or not to make two extra geysers at your third instead of grabbing roach/evo.
I'm still trying to work out the gas timings: it seems you need to go up to three gases before grabbing your lair but after grabbing zerling speed - either way you make the rest of the gases while the lair is morphing. The way I've been experimenting the lair doesn't finish until 8:00 so that leaves a slight vulnerability to DT rushes due to the lack of evo.
I'll post more once I get a look at the VODs.
EDIT:
VODs are up!
Nestea takes his first gas at 4:45, at about 28 food.
Against Lure, Nestea sees two gases taken before 7:00 and takes five additional gases while lair is making. All five gases are being made before the first gas finishes. This seems perfectly reactionary.
Against JYP, Nestea again sees two gases finished at the natural before 7:00, and reacts by going up to six gases on all his bases. This also seems to be a pure reaction to seeing the gases being taken.
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so how do you defend those 7-8 gate allins with like 32 probes? i just feel so scared without roaches 
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EPT
