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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On October 14 2011 10:56 DeAnconia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:45 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 10:40 DeAnconia wrote:
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
I feel since we are both so far on this particular point quoted above.. there is no reason to go much farther into the others. But yes, "A confirmation of what they saw" is EXACTLY what people are looking for and what I believe drives the majority of traffic to news websites. People watch the super bowl at a super bowl party... Go home.. and read the front page headline and write up on ESPN. People watch Pujols go 4-5 and lead the cardinals to a win on T.V, after the game they race to their computers to read about what they just watched. Same goes for almost every other sport... By the time Wednesday rolls around.. no one is reading super bowl stories any more. The idea that demand for event related content is highest right after an event is finished seems just so obvious to me... But perhaps in the world of starcraft it really is different than everything else as you suggest... but I doubt it.... -- As for my logic being wrong about why traffic goes up during the streams? I don't follow you here. Wouldn't people coming to watch the streams be exactly the target market for showing the headline news right after the event? Every big SC2 event I do 2 things.. I go to the stream site (MLG, IPL.. whatever) I throw that up on the big screen and then I go the the live report thread.. I watch the steam and read at the same time.. After the event is over.. I go back about 20 pages and re read the live event thread for view or opinion I may have missed. Which seems to be what the majority of people are doing on those threads as well. If there was an article posted within a half hour of the event.... that is when demand would be the highest for all those people that were watching the stream. Already listed three places where they can get confirmation + Other community websites. Are you having trouble reading that? Rofl, you skipped out on the other two points because there were no other alternatives or counterpoints, not because we have deviated. Nice try. 3. That isn't what drives the most views on a site, nope and you have no way of knowing either (myself included officially). Why are they going back reading about it? You never answered that? In addition, if they are reading, they're reading for opinions which is something you can get on the forums in the LR topic, not for confirmation: they know what they saw. You're hugely misinformed. As for the streams section: no, because they already know what they watched. The LR topic seems to already do what you want, I don't understand the point of the article and what exactly would it say more than the LR topic or how would it entirely encompass all that transpired in the LR topic and done in 30 fucking minutes lulz! Graphics team, Writers and editors have to do this in less than an hour? No pay and they have other priorities. Good one. C'mon man.. I'm trying to be nice here. I didn't mention the first two points not because I felt you made a compelling argument ( I still agree with what I said... and with GENO above) but because none of it really matters if we disagree so much on point number 3. Yes, I believe the reason why ESPN and other news sites put in an insane amount of resources to have full page write ups.. interviews.. 'rapid reactions' photos all available within MINUTES of a big time event ending... is because they believe as I do that the majority of traffic is generated by users looking for confirmation of what they just saw. No... you don't believe this is the case... And we both are right.. there is no way for either of us to know for sure outside of our own experiences and how we make connections. I personally behave in the above way (I watch the super bowl.. go home... click the front page story half hour later and read it)... you apparently don't. I make a connection with all the resources ESPN and others put in to have news available within minutes of it happening... so I just assume that is when demand and traffic is the highest.. but maybe your right and that the case. It either is that way or it isn't... we neither of us can prove the other person wrong. With that being said.. I did miss your recommendation on which sites provide this service for SC2... I would definitely be interested.
Okay, if you say so. It's better than just ignoring it as Blasterion does. My Bad, I'm sorry.
They do that because the competition is based on speed and accuracy. Not for confirmation, but because they were the first to say it and thus the most involved by implied association.
Not allowed to advertise other sites unfortunately.
I have to go stream now, so I'll be leaving this discussion and hoping it moves onto something a bit more fruitful. I've said my peace, so good luck everyone :3
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On October 14 2011 04:57 Klogon wrote:
I go to my TV to watch football or my DVR recorded soccer games.
I go to ESPN.com for sports news.
I go to TL.net to watch SC2 live or find links to VODs.
I go to TL.net for esports news.
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Now throw in the fact that we are an international site with many timezones and schedules.
Is the difference clear enough there? As the hub for both the viewing experience and the news, the only way we can accommodate both is if we keep the front page spoiler free for at least some time.
As far as spoilers go? Yes, they are a big deal. If you spoil something for me somewhere where you were not supposed to, I would probably ban you. I am the type of person who does not watch trailers for movies because it spoils 2 minutes of the movie for me. Some people care a lot and it detracts from the viewing experience. I'd even go as far as to say spoilering the results ahead of time would be hurting esports more by not allowing the delayed viewers the same epic experience as the live viewers.
And no, this is not hurting ESPORTS.
I would argue otherwise but reason prevailed.
I put myself in your shoes and understand why there'll be no changes. The status quo is such that changing it could hurt the site. I understand.
As to the claim it's not hurting eSports? I disagree, IPL's website still does not have the winner announced. hilarious. Husky had stopped talking about the epic finals entirely and Day[9] ... it is just sad to watch him now. And I stopped watching tbh. Why?
He stopped talking about the casting he's done becasuse he's afraid he just might accidentally spoil it for someone watching his cast who wants to watch the excitement of IPL3 finals but he hasn't found time to watch the VoDs of the finals.
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none of this should really be considered close to 'hurting esports'. that so overblows this issue it isn't funny.
I personally think it should be treated like regular sports as far as threads go, but I understand and appreciate that TL respects it's prevalence in a lot of different time zones.
if you need to know who just won, poke in a thread. if you don't want to know, at least you don't have to avoid TL entirely.
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Yeah, at first when I got into watching I cared more about spoilers, but since the game has evolved, now I watch the GSL matches even when I know the outcome beforehand. It is the journey that is awesome, not the ending.
That is why I tell people that care about spoilers not to go to my site because that is all I do is spoilers.
I don't think though that it is hurting anything. All sports have live updates now where you can see the scores and highlights before the game is even over. I just see "spoiler fear" as a silly thing to worry about. I mean, it is cool if the results are all you care about, but for me the game is much deeper.
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To me, it's like watching ESPN...you don't go there unless you want to know what's going on in the sporting world. Watching a game and don't want to be informed of results of others? To bad, the casters talk about it, there's the ticker at the bottom, etc. Yeah people in different time zones suck, but if this is going to be a "Starcraft Progaming News" site, it should have the up to date news - simple.
If it wants to be this community hub for delayed information, good strategy talk, and a source for streams, it should advertise itself solely as such. It's false advertising to say that the site is progaming news when, in reality, the news is so out of date that it really isn't news by the point it gets released.
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I just find kinda sad that in order to see who is the last champion you have to dig it out from a post somewhere in the forum under a spoiler tag. takes the importance of the win away. only for important wins, i would like to see big sites like TL make a big deal out of it and put a huge picture of the new Champion on the front page.
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On October 14 2011 16:06 centinel4 wrote:
I just find kinda sad that in order to see who is the last champion you have to dig it out from a post somewhere in the forum under a spoiler tag. takes the importance of the win away. only for important wins, i would like to see big sites like TL make a big deal out of it and put a huge picture of the new Champion on the front page.
Don't blame you inability to navigate on TL on spoiler tags
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Recent_Tournament_Results
and @imjorman, don't blame the delayed news on spoiler tags either, those are not related. If you want instant news, contribute and write them yourself. That's how 99% of the content here on TL is made.In fact I wonder how many of you 3300 in the poll have PMed the staff offering your services.
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On October 14 2011 17:19 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 16:06 centinel4 wrote:
I just find kinda sad that in order to see who is the last champion you have to dig it out from a post somewhere in the forum under a spoiler tag. takes the importance of the win away. only for important wins, i would like to see big sites like TL make a big deal out of it and put a huge picture of the new Champion on the front page. Don't blame you inability to navigate on TL on spoiler tags http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Recent_Tournament_Resultsand @imjorman, don't blame the delayed news on spoiler tags either, those are not related. If you want instant news, contribute and write them yourself. That's how 99% of the content here on TL is made.In fact I wonder how many of you 3300 in the poll have PMed the staff offering your services.
You are wrong. I see plenty of Writers doing live play-by-play or a live report thread during tournament events.
TL writers do make long post tournament wrap-ups that are great. The fact that many people love this idea, some are like meh, and the rest are saying how bad it is makes me believe we should experiment with it.
Why not do this for the Open Bracket for MLG this weekend? It's hard to check every game while watching the other matches of pool play on the live games. Would be nice to see a "Player wins 2-1 to move into ROx of the open bracket."
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On October 14 2011 19:26 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 17:19 Longshank wrote:On October 14 2011 16:06 centinel4 wrote:
I just find kinda sad that in order to see who is the last champion you have to dig it out from a post somewhere in the forum under a spoiler tag. takes the importance of the win away. only for important wins, i would like to see big sites like TL make a big deal out of it and put a huge picture of the new Champion on the front page. Don't blame you inability to navigate on TL on spoiler tags http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Recent_Tournament_Resultsand @imjorman, don't blame the delayed news on spoiler tags either, those are not related. If you want instant news, contribute and write them yourself. That's how 99% of the content here on TL is made.In fact I wonder how many of you 3300 in the poll have PMed the staff offering your services. You are wrong. I see plenty of Writers doing live play-by-play or a live report thread during tournament events. TL writers do make long post tournament wrap-ups that are great. The fact that many people love this idea, some are like meh, and the rest are saying how bad it is makes me believe we should experiment with it. Why not do this for the Open Bracket for MLG this weekend? It's hard to check every game while watching the other matches of pool play on the live games. Would be nice to see a "Player wins 2-1 to move into ROx of the open bracket."
That's actually done quite often over at http://www.teamliquid.net/mlg/
TL live tweets results as often as they can while they're there. Heck, just take a look at the IEM LR threads right now (Here) Pictures, recaps and live text updates from the people on the floor.
Edit: The best part of all this? It doesn't need to spoil anyone's fun since people can avoid those individual pages. There's actually a new "Partner Portals" tab on the top right for major events.
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On October 14 2011 10:23 Torte de Lini wrote:
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
Trying not to take side in yours and Aconias argument, but its pretty common knowledge that the demand for news is the highest right after the event, no matter what event, happened. Be it a big sports event, a plane crash, a political debate or whatever. And yes, that goes for both those who watched the sports event/political debate/whatever live and for those who didnt. I mean, when was the last time you saw any news site delay any big article for half a week? Theres really nothing anyone can say against that, and Im not sure how you are trying to argue yourself out of that one. It really is common knowledge.
Can you even imagine how stupid a news site would look if you went to it today and they had a huge headline on the front page regarding some happening 4 days ago, which all other news sites/TV channels/newspapers already covered and pretty much forgot about? Theres a reason things look as they do today.
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On October 14 2011 19:44 Kreb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:23 Torte de Lini wrote:
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
Trying not to take side in yours and Aconias argument, but its pretty common knowledge that the demand for news is the highest right after the event, no matter what event, happened. Be it a big sports event, a plane crash, a political debate or whatever. And yes, that goes for both those who watched the sports event/political debate/whatever live and for those who didnt. I mean, when was the last time you saw any news site delay any big article for half a week? Theres really nothing anyone can say against that, and Im not sure how you are trying to argue yourself out of that one. It really is common knowledge. Can you even imagine how stupid a news site would look if you went to it today and they had a huge headline on the front page regarding some happening 4 days ago, which all other news sites/TV channels/newspapers already covered and pretty much forgot about? Theres a reason things look as they do today.
So when's the last time TL delayed news because of spoilers? Because in this very thread there's been staff confirming they don't. Therefor the premise of this thread, blaming spoilers for lack of news, isn't really valid. Then people start to argue they want quicker live reports, and when someone points them to the many different pages to get such things around here, they bitch that they want it on the front page in everyone's face instead.
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gotta be careful, this should be an option, but i dunno how the user is going to specify it hmm
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Yes, but give an option (in your profile maybe?) to choose wether or not you want to see the huge banner with the results on the page( assuming the banner is just a new featured news article or a picture on the main page i don't think it would be that difficult to hide it for people that don't want to see it, sort of a spoiler tag).
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United States22883 Posts
On October 14 2011 19:26 catabowl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 17:19 Longshank wrote:On October 14 2011 16:06 centinel4 wrote:
I just find kinda sad that in order to see who is the last champion you have to dig it out from a post somewhere in the forum under a spoiler tag. takes the importance of the win away. only for important wins, i would like to see big sites like TL make a big deal out of it and put a huge picture of the new Champion on the front page. Don't blame you inability to navigate on TL on spoiler tags http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Recent_Tournament_Resultsand @imjorman, don't blame the delayed news on spoiler tags either, those are not related. If you want instant news, contribute and write them yourself. That's how 99% of the content here on TL is made.In fact I wonder how many of you 3300 in the poll have PMed the staff offering your services. You are wrong. I see plenty of Writers doing live play-by-play or a live report thread during tournament events. TL writers do make long post tournament wrap-ups that are great. The fact that many people love this idea, some are like meh, and the rest are saying how bad it is makes me believe we should experiment with it. Why not do this for the Open Bracket for MLG this weekend? It's hard to check every game while watching the other matches of pool play on the live games. Would be nice to see a "Player wins 2-1 to move into ROx of the open bracket." The people doing live reporting are not TL staff writers. They have finished writeups the day after an event before, using a non-descript title and a silhouette of the winner or something. Why don't you volunteer and start doing this?
I see a lot of people with little to no contributions to the community making demands out of volunteer writers, who do it for no reason other than love of TL and the community. The same community that you're telling them not to visit if they don't want to be spoiled. FFS.
Turning off adblock doesn't make you part of the community. >.>
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If you don't want to have a spoiler don't go on the site, it's really simple. If people are going to try and make SC2 as a sport more accessible we need those results to be accessible like they are with other sports in the world. In my opinion (and by the look of the poll) it really is just the voice of the vocal minority.
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Because no one likes to do work for free but get told "fuck you asshole, have spoilers, I haven't watched it yet!!" (four days after it happened).
Feel free to yell at volunteers at your local NGO and see how quickly you'll thin their ranks.
Edit: To the troll who calls a report/thread/write-up on a four day old event "news" is like calling the four day old salad left out to rot "food". Srsly... wtf
Rant: I just read IEM COVERAGE... it read like a highly classified report rewritten for lower security clearances during the Cold War. Where the author wants to say what the big deal was but can only hint and imply something big happened.
I love this community and it is great, and the polls show clearly that there are readers mature enough to realize if they're late to the show and are mature enough to know that results are just part of the fun and excitement and respect those who put in time and energy to stay up at ungodly hours to watch the most awesome, mad, crazy plays that is the [insert event here] and watching it happen LIVE!!, the space to speak their hearts
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On October 14 2011 21:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Because no one like to do work for free but get told "fuck you asshole, have spoilers, I haven't watched it yet!!" (four days after it happened).
Feel free to yell at volunteers at your local NGO and see how quickly you'll thin their ranks.
Edit: To the troll who calls a report/thread/write-up on a four day old event "news" is like calling the four day old salad left out to rot "food". Srsly... wtf
Rant: I just read IEM COVERAGE... it read a rewritten highly classified report for those with lower security clearances during the Cold War. Where the author wants to say what the big deal was but can only hint and imply something big happened.
I love this community and it is great, and the polls show clearly that there are readers mature enough to realize if they're late to the show they should man up and respect those who put in time and energy to stay up at ungodly hours to watch the most awesome, mad, crazy plays that is the [insert event here] and watching it happen LIVE!!
Provide examples please. I've read many threads to discuss recent games within 24 hours that have a spoiler warning & no one bitches because the warning is there. Volunteer to do the work and include a warning, it's as simple as that.
Our Protoss Heroes (GSL Spoiler Alert)
Korean Netizen Reactions to the IPL Finals Spoiler
[GSL] Can we blame the maps? *possible spoilers*
[SPOILER] [D] IM Zergs ZvP opener vs FFE
[OSL Spoilers] In the Stadium of an OSL
[OSL Spoilers] Huh.
Did I make my point yet? Titles don't have to spoil, and popping up a warning if it's within 24 hours doesn't detract from the following discussion, nor the OP of the thread. If you're just relying on an eye catching title with little to no content in the OP what's the point of even having a thread? Just one click away brings you to many different pages to get quick results. All of these are 1 click away from the main teamliquid.net page.
As for your rant, which IEM coverage thread are you talking about? The
IEM Global Challenge New York - Day 0 Coverage one?
Edit: You talk about yelling at volunteers being a bad thing, yet here you are yelling at the volunteers who write for TL for not providing news fast enough, or as blunt as you wish it to be.
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On October 14 2011 21:09 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
I love this community and it is great, and the polls show clearly that there are readers mature enough to realize if they're late to the show they should man up and respect those who put in time and energy to stay up at ungodly hours to watch the most awesome, mad, crazy plays that is the [insert event here] and watching it happen LIVE!!
Wait, what?
The ones who don't know the results should respect those who do? What about the other way around?
Do you consider the "damage" done to you if you can't chat about it as equal to the one done to me if you spoil me the winner of an event?
Furthermore, a majority of the poll voters are for showing instant results on the front page, yes. But how many of those live in North America and only watch american tournaments? The whole VOD experience is unfamiliar to someone who only watches let's say MLG and NASL, and does it live.
86% of the voters want live results, yes, but that's not the same thing as 86% of the voters being OK with getting results spoiled to them, since a portion of them choose to only watch tournaments taking place in their own country/timezone etc.
Now, should someone who does not have to deal with the hassle of tournaments in the middle of the night and VOD-watching even get a vote in this? Debatable.
Also, as said earlier, and this hasn't gotten the attention it deserves:
On October 14 2011 04:57 Klogon wrote:
I go to my TV to watch football or my DVR recorded soccer games.
I go to ESPN.com for sports news.
I go to TL.net to watch SC2 live or find links to VODs.
I go to TL.net for esports news.
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I understand the mods point of view regarding the thread, aka “we don’t have the staff to do live news feed on the front page”. But it most seems that it is a problem of having motivated people do it, and focus the most important news that are kinda already present on tournament threads and tournament portals (teamliquid.net/mlg or whatev) on the frontpage with a cute picture. I feel the content is already there, just spread around twitter, the threads, liquipedia, etc. With this huge community and energy that people spend doing sc2 related things, I find it hard that there is no possible way that the front page could be updated with these results. This might sound whiny and I understand people could say “why don’t you do it yourself, smartass”, but I know there is fine folks with a lot more spare time than me around  And whatever happens, this is not my website and TL staff can do whatever they feel like, I’ll still be around.
Also I would like to add the most interesting points of view on the OP, could someone tell me what are the best posts around ? With arguments from both side ? I tought about adding Tyler’s and Jibba’s POV, who else did a great job summing it up ?
p.s: come on, don’t go around saying the poll “sucks” and is not precise enough to be acknowledged, or that the non-english speakers didn’t have a voice (lol), or that people voted without knowing what they were voting for. It could be true if the results were 55%/45%, but the “NO’s” are only 7%, that is indeed a clear minority.
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EPT
