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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On October 14 2011 09:02 drcatellino wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:42 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 08:40 Staboteur wrote:
People need to worry less about hurting esports and focus more on helping it. I for one would love to see another MrBitter pop out of the woodwork as a vocal community member / event manager / dude who makes shit happen. You could spend an age wondering if walking with your left foot first will ultimately cause an imbalance in your leg strength and impede your 100m sprint, or you could spend an age training and be fast as all shit because of it. Thank you. We live in a negative world where the only way to help competitive gaming is to find ways to prevent it from being slowed down as if it could go any faster. People need to either: enjoy the ride and support it in ways that help it grow financially or with exposure. or 2. Stop fucking being so negative and realize that competitive gaming is a big boy and is doing fine. I can't believe how seriously people are taking this thread title, lol. I guess I should have called it "Is the de-antispoilerization of TL the new great hope of E-Sports ?" If you read the OP, you probably won't have a feeling of "negativity", same for the poll question. Cheers, fellow montrealer.
Oh shit, Montreal represent! Barcraft, you coming right?
Some people just like to moan and complain thinking that if they do it enough, things will change and validate their bitching by excusing it as being "proactive" towards competitive gaming.
But that's a generalization on my part.
When asked directly how this affects competitive gaming, you'll get a lot of sparse valid truths or actual relevance to the concept known as "E-Sports"
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On October 14 2011 08:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
Nice try.
Doesn't account for those who don't give a shit.
Doesn't account for those who didn't think things through.
Doesn't account for non-english speakers community members.
Doesn't even have a majority number? you think 3000 people is a majority? rofl
Doesn't even poll this to other community hubs (reddit, WP.org)
Round 3, let's go :3 You missed my counterpoint with your hypothetical situation of Jinro and now you have this minority thing you can't seem to really fight for.
Those are not very good counter-points. =S
1. If they don't give a shit, it would mean it won't matter for them if there are spoiler news posts or not. I think you might have meant that they don't give a shit for this thread in particular, because it is badly worded? Then maybe there should be a larger-scale poll, which would attract more attention.
2. A second poll would probably fix this, because now people who have thought things through could vote correctly this time.
3. If there are non-english speakers, what are they doing on tl.net, which is primarily an English-based community? What would they understand from English-worded news articles?
4. Well, there is a huge majority compared between the Yes and other 2 choices. Sure, not all users of tl.net voted, but there is a clear majority in the votes themselves, not in the people voted. If there are people who haven't voted, they might probably agree with the poll and since it has such a huge majority vote, not to see the need to vote themselves.
5. What do other sites have to do with TL.net? We are discussing weather this would benefit our community. Other sites can discuss it for themselves and decide as well, but I doubt our decision would have much influence on them.
As I've said before, making a small news article post, highlighting the most awesome things of the tournament maybe coupled with some pictures wouldn't really be a bad thing. And if there is a huge [SPOILER] at the front of the title, it would alert to those who would like to watch the VODs themselves. There were even examples earlier. =]
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On October 14 2011 08:50 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:49 Blasterion wrote:
Ok, regarding time zones, World Cup doesn't always happen at a good time for people to watch, they are live reported basically.
It's not a burden to the website but it is a feature that will be appreciated by the majority that cares How many times does World Cup occur? How many times is the World Cup playing in one specific time zone each time? How many people watch the World Cup? How many sites are there that broadcast or talk about the World Cup? Your parallel comparison is not even close to parallel, come on. Round 4. P.S: it's not the majority, you seem to ignore this everytime.Which majority appreciates it? Those who watched it or those who frequent LR topics? How do they appreciate it? What aspect do they like the most about it?
I'm not even sure what you are trying to argue here. But I do think that you are taking the thread title too literally and are focusing too much on the "hurting e-sports" thing (which I think is bullshit). I think this is a similar topic to the sidebar change one which moved the BW content and made SC2 take the spotlight the userbase demanded.
The SC2 tourney subforum in its current state does a good job of being spoiler-free (too much so, some say, but that's an issue for another day), so people who do not want to get spoiled simply navigate to that and the first pages of the LR threads instead of the main splash page when a major tournament has just concluded and they haven't watched it live.
And about the majority: the only numbers we have to go by are those from the poll in the OP, which shows that 93% of TLers are for the the main page taking a more active and current news headline approach. But you are free to offer other numbers that back your argument, of course. 
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On October 14 2011 09:07 Lord Hakera wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
Nice try.
Doesn't account for those who don't give a shit.
Doesn't account for those who didn't think things through.
Doesn't account for non-english speakers community members.
Doesn't even have a majority number? you think 3000 people is a majority? rofl
Doesn't even poll this to other community hubs (reddit, WP.org)
Round 3, let's go :3 You missed my counterpoint with your hypothetical situation of Jinro and now you have this minority thing you can't seem to really fight for. Those are not very good counter-points. =S 1. If they don't give a shit, it would mean it won't matter for them if there are spoiler news posts or not. I think you might have meant that they don't give a shit for this thread in particular, because it is badly worded? Then maybe there should be a larger-scale poll, which would attract more attention. 2. A second poll would probably fix this, because now people who have thought things through could vote correctly this time. 3. If there are non-english speakers, what are they doing on tl.net, which is primarily an English-based community? What would they understand from English-worded news articles? 4. Well, there is a huge majority compared between the Yes and other 2 choices. Sure, not all users of tl.net voted, but there is a clear majority in the votes themselves, not in the people voted. If there are people who haven't voted, they might probably agree with the poll and since it has such a huge majority vote, not to see the need to vote themselves. 5. What do other sites have to do with TL.net? We are discussing weather this would benefit our community. Other sites can discuss it for themselves and decide as well, but I doubt our decision would have much influence on them. As I've said before, making a small news article post, highlighting the most awesome things of the tournament maybe coupled with some pictures wouldn't really be a bad thing. And if there is a huge [SPOILER] at the front of the title, it would alert to those who would like to watch the VODs themselves. There were even examples earlier. =]
Yes! 1. Yeah, I did mean they don't give a shit about this topic. I wouldn't vote for something if I thought the question itself was a really stupid one. Sorry for my lack of clarification.
2. No, a second poll wouldn't fix it because you still have to account for all the other points and in addition to trying to get those who already voted, not to vote again.
3. My Korean is terrible, in fact, I speak no Korean. Doesn't stop me from going on playxp, also doesn't mean the site isn't important. In addition, if you are learning a language or understand bits of it, you can draw usefulness from this site. You also don't need to understand English entirely to use TLPD, Liquipedia, the streams etc. A lot of LA teams also announce their team on this site, despite it not being the same official language as their country, if I was from LA, I would come on here to support them or try and make a post. Just because you don't speak the language doesn't mean the site isn't for you.
4. Those who care or think this is a valid argument will vote yes. That's obvious. Those who don't and don't see a point in discussing it, will be less likely to vote. there is a bias in the topic question because it assumes that the spoilers hurts E-Sports. A better poll would be: Does Spoilers have an effect on E-Sports on a global scale.
5. No, we are discussing if spoilers hurt E-Sports, read the topic. That's what we're discussing here, whether it hurts the site or not is not our prerogative and in addition: we've established that there is a delay of when the articles are published for reasons outside of avoiding spoilers.
For your suggestion: Live Report topics do that already. Check the IEM LR topic for an example. MLG also has a whole portal for it and in addition: posts pictures, recommends games, etc.
yes! This is so much fun!
And about the majority: the only numbers we have to go by are those from the poll in the OP, which shows that 93% of TLers are for the the main page taking a more active and current news headline approach. But you are free to offer other numbers that back your argument, of course
Not representative of TLs numbers. We are putting doubt that the statement that this poll is a representation of TL/A majority of TL members. I don't have to prove that it isn't, I just have to state that it isn't necessarily true or the poll isn't necessarily valid due to the points made above.
Round 5
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On October 13 2011 16:31 KoBlades wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2011 16:17 DeAnconia wrote:
If I don't want to be spoiled, I
1. Don't go to team liquid.
2. Don't talk to my other starcraft 2 friends (or at least in form them ahead of time not to tell me)
3. Don't watch any event that happened later to avoid any potential references
So you say you should just completely shut yourself away and do not talk to anyone (sc related)? Come on, this cant work ^^
I guess its different for everyone, but the above works quite easily I might add. All three of those steps above are really simple.... I'm not sure how they would be that difficult..
1. No team liquid (hmm.. don't go to a website that covers what I'm trying NOT to find out about.. just makes sense)... super easy
2. Friends... this could potentially be the only difficult part.. but I usually send out a text like, "Very stoked for MVP vs Nestea tonight, but I will not have time to watch until Wednesday... So don't tell me the results and I'll be calling you to discuss then!" Plus, SC2 isn't mainstream enough yet for me to worry about too many of my co workers coming into my office yelling "Dude.. MVP crushed your precious Nestea last night... EAT IT"
3. Iff I really wanted to watch a prevoius SC2 match but I didn't want the ending to be spoiled.... it only makes sense that it is the first match I watch when I have time... right? probably the easiest
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On October 14 2011 09:23 Bobster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 08:45 Torte de Lini wrote:
For your suggestion: Live Report topics do that already. Check the IEM LR topic for an example. MLG also has a whole portal for it and in addition: posts pictures, recommends games, etc. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Mytwq.jpg) That's all people are asking. To get some of the major news on this news site. Big headline, one paragraph, picture of the winner. I'm sure this is not beyond the capabilities of one of the 10k+ members active after a huge event like IPL3. I think the poll in the OP is representative. A large number of people have already voted, it's easy to extrapolate from that. The majority of Team Liquidians think it's a good idea, so I think the powers that be should go ahead with it. And yes, it is fun to argue about these things, just be aware that you represent a minority opinion and don't end up just arguing for arguing's sake.
Cool, how does it affect competitive gaming?
You seem to be ignoring the general subject of the topic. I even corrected you when you showed a poor understanding of the topic's subject and thought this was about the website.
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
How hard is this to grasp?
Onward: That's really cool that your perception that the poll is representative, but I just listed objectively why it isn't and gave you a lot of factors to account for that showed why it couldn't be. You think you can just sweep that under? 3,000 isn't a large number, but now I'm talking off-hand, but I'm sure more than 3,000 people go on this site.
Nice spear there, I like it when you go personal because your original arguments are lacking.
Just remember that there is a high unlikelihood that things will change regardless of your perception.
Do I include a smiley too?
No memes, that's a common rule that the majority has to follow
Still round 5.
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Sorry if there was a misunderstanding Torte, I wasn't really talking about the hurting e-sports thing, just about headlines and current news appearing on the main page. I think discussion in a thread can spread out and take different angles into account, so feel free to continue to talk about how this is or isn't hurting competitive e-sports. I'm solely concerned with the proposition for more news headlines and the creation (or maintaining) of a spoiler-free subforum for those who don't want to be spoiled - as it's outlined in the OP.
On October 14 2011 07:04 Jcnorheim wrote:
I think that as SC2 viewership increases, the concern over spoilers should go down.
The issue here is that the "big" sports don't really release VODs, whereas they might be the main source for SC2 viewing still.
When SC2 is bigger than football/American Football, they might no longer release VODs for the main events.
That could take a while...
But yeah, I hope this will be slowly phased out as more people come in and the general treatment of spoilers in sports also enters SC2.
I think many of the people here arguing against spoilers aren't big fans of other sports (nothing wrong with that) because as a fairly intense footy fan, I'm totally used to going through the city each Saturday with blinders on. :lol
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On October 14 2011 09:35 Bobster wrote:Sorry if there was a misunderstanding Torte, I wasn't really talking about the hurting e-sports thing, just about headlines and current news appearing on the main page. I think discussion in a thread can spread out and take different angles into account, so feel free to continue to talk about how this is or isn't hurting competitive e-sports. I'm solely concerned with the proposition for more news headlines and the poll in the OP. Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 07:04 Jcnorheim wrote:
I think that as SC2 viewership increases, the concern over spoilers should go down.
The issue here is that the "big" sports don't really release VODs, whereas they might be the main source for SC2 viewing still.
When SC2 is bigger than football/American Football, they might no longer release VODs for the main events. That could take a while... But yeah, I hope this will be slowly phased out as more people come in and the general treatment of spoilers in sports also enters SC2. I think many of the people here arguing against spoilers aren't big fans of other sports (nothing wrong with that) because as a fairly intense footy fan, I'm totally used to going through the city each Saturday with blinders on. :lol
But that's what the topic is... That's what we're talking about.
The more headlines and the poll is in regards to hurting competitive gaming... I don't understand how you can be concerned with something different on things that is about what we're talking about now...
I think many of the people here arguing against spoilers aren't big fans of other sports (nothing wrong with that) because as a fairly intense footy fan, I'm totally used to going through the city each Saturday with blinders on. :lol
No, but nice try. Athletic sports and competitive gaming are not the same or even on the same ground and we can't draw comparisons. Most Major league sports are national, meaning in and around the same time-zone, so there's less diversity in people who watch (Americans, Canadians, etc.).
That's for starters, please think about relative factors.
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Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here...
1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it.
2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them.
(On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.)
3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner.
The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case.
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I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section.
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On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:Show nested quote +
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case.
YES! LETS GO AGAIN!
Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area.
That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality.
That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here.
Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too.
3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question
Round 6.
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On October 14 2011 09:43 dcemuser wrote:
I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section.
If you're not logged in, you're automatically spoiled.
My guess is not enough resources or time to implement this in addition.
How does this affect competitive gaming?
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On October 14 2011 09:48 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:43 dcemuser wrote:
I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section. If you're not logged in, you're automatically spoiled.
why does it matter?
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On October 14 2011 09:48 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:48 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:43 dcemuser wrote:
I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section. If you're not logged in, you're automatically spoiled. why does it matter?
Oh, you're back! You forgot my counterpoints to round 2 and 3 (and 4?).
Have you come for another round?
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On October 14 2011 09:49 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:48 Blasterion wrote:On October 14 2011 09:48 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:43 dcemuser wrote:
I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section. If you're not logged in, you're automatically spoiled. why does it matter? Oh, you're back! You forgot my counterpoints to round 2 and 3 (and 4?). Have you come for another round?
you must be enjoying this as much as I am.
It's been a while care to cover 2/3/4 again?
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What if TL put the results on the main page, but had an option that you can select that allows you to turn off "Headlines", or more commonly known to this thread as "Spoilers". Makes sense to me.
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On October 14 2011 10:03 Glimli wrote:
What if TL put the results on the main page, but had an option that you can select that allows you to turn off "Headlines", or more commonly known to this thread as "Spoilers". Makes sense to me.
On October 14 2011 09:43 dcemuser wrote:
I don't understand the point of all this spoilers vs non-spoilers discussion.
These things are not mutually exclusive. You can add breaking news content to the front page and have it appear or disappear based on a profile setting called "Show Spoilers" or whatever.
What's the entire point of all this bickering really? The real question is who would be AGAINST an opt-out breaking news section.
If you're not logged in, you're automatically spoiled.
My guess is not enough resources or time to implement this in addition.
How does this affect competitive gaming?
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On competitive gaming, Interesting news headlines help draw in newcomers to eSport, because why the hell not, One would be interested in a Headlines saying someone did something awesome at a very recent event over headlines that currently feel neutered because the title are not as very hype as they could be due to spoiler rules. something like Congratulations Winner of IPL3 isn't very, hype. Hell until today looking thru Featured/community news I can't find a thing about Stephano winning IPL3, because the headline isn't there.
Because of spoiler policy it feels the frontpage is very lackluster, at the very least let us get a daily recap of tournaments or something. Well updated news draw interest, and interest feeds eSports
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EPT
