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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. |
On October 14 2011 10:03 Glimli wrote:
What if TL put the results on the main page, but had an option that you can select that allows you to turn off "Headlines", or more commonly known to this thread as "Spoilers". Makes sense to me.
Maybe making it an automatic redirect to another version of the main page ("http://www.teamliquid.net/spoilerfree" or something) that lacks the results headlines (how many are those foir major events, really. one every two weeks?) could work.
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On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6.
I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points.
1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer or basketball (for example) than all the time zones combined for SC2.
2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. What if politicians should start using that line? ("The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote!") Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would also make this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major SC2 events. If they see increased traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its safe to say that people are coming here to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news.
3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question"
Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well.
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On October 14 2011 10:08 Blasterion wrote:
On competitive gaming, Interesting news headlines help draw in newcomers to eSport, because why the hell not, One would be interested in a Headlines saying someone did something awesome at a very recent event over headlines that currently feel neutered because the title are not as very hype as they could be due to spoiler rules. something like Congratulations Winner of IPL3 isn't very, hype. Hell until today looking thru Featured/community news I can't find a thing about Stephano winning IPL3, because the headline isn't there.
Because of spoiler policy it feels the frontpage is very lackluster, at the very least let us get a daily recap of tournaments or something. Well updated news draw interest, and interest feeds eSports
LR topics have daily recaps of the tournament. Not sure why would missed that.
Also, newcomers do not get into competitive gaming that way. In most cases, if something awesome did happen, they'd look for the VOD, not a recap of the whole thing or the result of an event.
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On October 14 2011 10:08 Blasterion wrote:
On competitive gaming, Interesting news headlines help draw in newcomers to eSport, because why the hell not, One would be interested in a Headlines saying someone did something awesome at a very recent event over headlines that currently feel neutered because the title are not as very hype as they could be due to spoiler rules. something like Congratulations Winner of IPL3 isn't very, hype. Hell until today looking thru Featured/community news I can't find a thing about Stephano winning IPL3, because the headline isn't there.
Because of spoiler policy it feels the frontpage is very lackluster, at the very least let us get a daily recap of tournaments or something. Well updated news draw interest, and interest feeds eSports
I get this vibe that you're making arguments up. It has been mentioned time and time again, LR THREADS and LIQUIDPEDIA offer you immediate results. Staff members have already stated that news would be posted sooner if there was enough man power to do it, this isn't due to a 'spoiler rule'. Finally as for people, I don't think I've met a single person whos first contact with sc2 was tl.net.
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On October 13 2011 00:51 ch33psh33p wrote:
Its not spoiler fear.
Its people who post and whine about spoilers, even though they've already seen the games and only whine because they can.
This creates a stigma where everyone is afraid to talk about an epic game, at least until a year has passed.
And there was an article published recently that showed that knowing the results of a game/movie/whatever doesn't influence negatively your anticipation or excitement for the event, or during it, as you watch a replay.
I think the OP has a good point. This is really big news and deserves to be front page status asap.
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On October 14 2011 10:13 DeAnconia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6. I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points. 1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer for example than all the time zones combined for SC2. 2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for your "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. I think politicians should start using that line. (The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote) Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would through out this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major events. If they see an increase in traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its obvious that people here are coming to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news. 3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question" Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well.
Me? Frustrated? Not at you :3
1. Soccer overcomes everything and should be in its own division, but Soccer also doesn't have an intertwining community relying on one site or few places. Soccer isn't competitive gaming and they have smaller sub-communities that don't need larger sites, to help promote the sport. You can't remotely compare Soccer with even an other competitive athletic in terms outside the sport.
2. The people who don't care are still affected and may care soonafter. Perhaps they don't care for a variety of reasons because they don't think it will be changed or because they know the idea has no actual chance of happening within the near future. If it did change, we'd see the same thing but in reverse. Doesn't mean anything.
rofl, they're coming to the site to see the stream, not the results. Good try. I think that attempt to jab at me by saying that the poll is doing more than I can is just a personal antic of yours because the overall reasoning is against the faulty logic you're relying on.
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
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On October 14 2011 10:13 DeAnconia wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6. I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points. 1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer for example than all the time zones combined for SC2. 2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for your "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. I think politicians should start using that line. (The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote) Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would through out this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major events. If they see an increase in traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its obvious that people here are coming to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news. 3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question" Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well.
1. Don't think you understood the point, sc2 fans are spread out across the world far more than something like baseball. Sure you might have pockets of NBA fans in the middle east but there is a dominant time zone. Its not the same for sc2, as we have the US/all of Europe and Korea churning out content and fans.
2. If the 'pole' was spotlighted and on the front page, with an OP that explains it much better and offers more choices, then the 'pole' wouldn't 'suck' so much.
3. Please read the thread, writers cannot produce the quality of content TL is known for without spending some time on it. If you'd prefer we change the The Daily Telegraph/The Times to The Sun...
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On October 14 2011 10:27 fortheGG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:13 DeAnconia wrote:On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6. I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points. 1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer for example than all the time zones combined for SC2. 2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for your "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. I think politicians should start using that line. (The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote) Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would through out this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major events. If they see an increase in traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its obvious that people here are coming to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news. 3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question" Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well. 1. Don't think you understood the point, sc2 fans are spread out across the world far more than something like baseball. Sure you might have pockets of NBA fans in the middle east but there is a dominant time zone. Its not the same for sc2, as we have the US/all of Europe and Korea churning out content and fans. 2. If the 'pole' was spotlighted and on the front page, with an OP that explains it much better and offers more choices, then the 'pole' wouldn't 'suck' so much. 3. Please read the thread, writers cannot produce the quality of content TL is known for without spending some time on it. If you'd prefer we change the The Daily Telegraph/The Times to The Sun...
Thank you, geez!
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I'm really disappointed in how this thread has progressed 
It's clear from the poll that the majority wants this type of coverage, but it also seems pretty clear that TL moderation and staff (if we can take the redname posters in the thread as a sample of site moderation at large) are strongly opposed to it (to protect the minority). This is understandable, but personally I think it is a bit misguided. Rather than delaying and spoilering and banning those that spoil results, I think efforts would be better spent producing a spoiler-free gateway that hides live-coverage and threads marked with live content, letting the majority eat their cake while the minority has their equally delicious pie.
Though I'd really love for TL to be able to do this, if they will not, I really really hope someone else will. A competing news site (similar to rakaka from what I can see, though in English and all Starcraft preferably) would probably very quickly become one of my most visited websites, so long as it was done well.
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On October 14 2011 10:38 geno wrote:I'm really disappointed in how this thread has progressed It's clear from the poll that the majority wants this type of coverage, but it also seems pretty clear that TL moderation and staff (if we can take the redname posters in the thread as a sample of site moderation at large) are strongly opposed to it (to protect the minority). This is understandable, but personally I think it is a bit misguided. Rather than delaying and spoilering and banning those that spoil results, I think efforts would be better spent producing a spoiler-free gateway that hides live-coverage and threads marked with live content, letting the majority eat their cake while the minority has their equally delicious pie. Though I'd really love for TL to be able to do this, if they will not, I really really hope someone else will. A competing news site (similar to rakaka from what I can see, though in English and all Starcraft preferably) would probably very quickly become one of my most visited websites, so long as it was done well.
Except the poll isn't the majority, read more replies.
No, because SC2 and sites have more to offer than fast inaccurate or poorly edited news. Even if it was the fastest, you'd be asking those who already know the results to read a small blurb about an event they already watched. Barely any point in that.
Those who haven't may not want it spoilered, so you just cut a big chunk out of frequented visitors.
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3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
I feel since we are both so far off on this particular point quoted above.. there is no reason to go much farther into the others. But yes, "A confirmation of what they saw" is EXACTLY what people are looking for and what I believe drives the majority of traffic to news websites.
People watch the super bowl at a super bowl party... Go home.. and read the front page headline and write up on ESPN. People watch Pujols go 4-5 and lead the cardinals to a win on T.V, after the game they race to their computers to read about what they just watched. Same goes for almost every other sport... By the time Wednesday rolls around.. no one is reading super bowl stories any more. The idea that demand for event related content is highest right after an event is finished seems just so obvious to me... But perhaps in the world of starcraft it really is different than everything else as you suggest... but I doubt it....
-- As for my logic being wrong about why traffic goes up during the streams? I don't follow you here. Wouldn't people coming to watch the streams be exactly the target market for showing the headline news right after the event? Every big SC2 event I do 2 things.. I go to the stream site (MLG, IPL.. whatever) I throw that up on the big screen and then I go the the live report thread.. I watch the steam and read at the same time.. After the event is over.. I go back about 20 pages and re read the live event thread for view or opinion I may have missed. Which seems to be what the majority of people are doing on those threads as well. If there was an article posted within a half hour of the event.... that is when demand would be the highest for all those people that were watching the stream...
EDIT - I've mentioned before.. but will re mention now... I understand if resources are the main reason for this not happening.
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On October 14 2011 10:38 geno wrote:I'm really disappointed in how this thread has progressed It's clear from the poll that the majority wants this type of coverage, but it also seems pretty clear that TL moderation and staff (if we can take the redname posters in the thread as a sample of site moderation at large) are strongly opposed to it (to protect the minority). This is understandable, but personally I think it is a bit misguided. Rather than delaying and spoilering and banning those that spoil results, I think efforts would be better spent producing a spoiler-free gateway that hides live-coverage and threads marked with live content, letting the majority eat their cake while the minority has their equally delicious pie. Though I'd really love for TL to be able to do this, if they will not, I really really hope someone else will. A competing news site (similar to rakaka from what I can see, though in English and all Starcraft preferably) would probably very quickly become one of my most visited websites, so long as it was done well.
If people want that kind of coverage, they can make their own website. TL does things the way TL has done them, and I think that's the prevailing opinion among people who matter.
My personal opinion is that I don't give a crap about spoilers. Tell me who won, tell me if it was a good game, and I'll watch it, I watch most of it live anyway so it doesn't matter. I think the fear about spoilers is overblown and people make far too big a deal out of it for no reason at all, but my opinion is not the one that matters.
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On October 14 2011 10:27 fortheGG wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:13 DeAnconia wrote:On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6. I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points. 1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer for example than all the time zones combined for SC2. 2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for your "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. I think politicians should start using that line. (The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote) Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would through out this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major events. If they see an increase in traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its obvious that people here are coming to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news. 3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question" Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well. 1. Don't think you understood the point, sc2 fans are spread out across the world far more than something like baseball. Sure you might have pockets of NBA fans in the middle east but there is a dominant time zone. Its not the same for sc2, as we have the US/all of Europe and Korea churning out content and fans. 2. If the 'pole' was spotlighted and on the front page, with an OP that explains it much better and offers more choices, then the 'pole' wouldn't 'suck' so much. 3. Please read the thread, writers cannot produce the quality of content TL is known for without spending some time on it. If you'd prefer we change the The Daily Telegraph/The Times to The Sun...
1. Strawman. Yes, NBA's unique timezone is different, but that's why he didn't use that as an example. Soccer is much better and much more relevant. Fans of teams and players can be anywhere around the globe, and results are live pretty much everywhere. The responsibility to avoid coverage is on the person who hasn't seen the game, not on the teams/players/media/rest of the world. This is despite timezones.
2. This is a good point, but there is no reason for you to assume the poll would be much different. I'd love it if TL took this seriously enough to address it as a frontpage poll and discussion though, maybe we would learn quite a bit more about it.
3. False dichotomy. There is no reason to think both types of coverage cannot coexist. No one is arguing that the recaps and full coverage should be eliminated. Only that it should be supplemented with BREAKING NEWS style updates of important events. If anything, I would wager it would help bridge the gap between the events and the full recaps, keeping people interested longer and more enthralled when they finally do get the final articles.
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On October 14 2011 10:40 DeAnconia wrote:Show nested quote +
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
I feel since we are both so far on this particular point quoted above.. there is no reason to go much farther into the others. But yes, "A confirmation of what they saw" is EXACTLY what people are looking for and what I believe drives the majority of traffic to news websites. People watch the super bowl at a super bowl party... Go home.. and read the front page headline and write up on ESPN. People watch Pujols go 4-5 and lead the cardinals to a win on T.V, after the game they race to their computers to read about what they just watched. Same goes for almost every other sport... By the time Wednesday rolls around.. no one is reading super bowl stories any more. The idea that demand for event related content is highest right after an event is finished seems just so obvious to me... But perhaps in the world of starcraft it really is different than everything else as you suggest... but I doubt it.... -- As for my logic being wrong about why traffic goes up during the streams? I don't follow you here. Wouldn't people coming to watch the streams be exactly the target market for showing the headline news right after the event? Every big SC2 event I do 2 things.. I go to the stream site (MLG, IPL.. whatever) I throw that up on the big screen and then I go the the live report thread.. I watch the steam and read at the same time.. After the event is over.. I go back about 20 pages and re read the live event thread for view or opinion I may have missed. Which seems to be what the majority of people are doing on those threads as well. If there was an article posted within a half hour of the event.... that is when demand would be the highest for all those people that were watching the stream.
Already listed three places where they can get confirmation + Other community websites. Are you having trouble reading that?
Rofl, you skipped out on the other two points because there were no other alternatives or counterpoints, not because we have deviated. Nice try.
3. That isn't what drives the most views on a site, nope and you have no way of knowing either (myself included officially).
Why are they going back reading about it? You never answered that? In addition, if they are reading, they're reading for opinions which is something you can get on the forums in the LR topic, not for confirmation: they know what they saw. You're hugely misinformed.
As for the streams section: no, because they already know what they watched. The LR topic seems to already do what you want, I don't understand the point of the article and what exactly would it say more than the LR topic or how would it entirely encompass all that transpired in the LR topic and done in 30 fucking minutes lulz! Graphics team, Writers and editors have to do this in less than an hour?
No pay and they have other priorities. Good one.
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On October 14 2011 10:45 geno wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:27 fortheGG wrote:On October 14 2011 10:13 DeAnconia wrote:On October 14 2011 09:47 Torte de Lini wrote:On October 14 2011 09:42 DeAnconia wrote:
Majors news on the news site comes: a little bit later but with better quality and more thoroughly written. You get what you want, just later.
A couple things here... 1. I don't see how they are mutually exclusive. You can have your main page article immediately after the event... and then your story and blog type articles later. Which is exactly how the main stream sports sites do it. 2. Even IF they are mutually exclusive.... The poll (only data we currently have) suggest that most people would prefer to have lesser quality shorter articles delivered when they CARE to read them as opposed to better quality more thoroughly written articles delivered when people DON'T care to read them. (On a side note.... I myself face this issue.. I greatly enjoy the write ups, when I get a chance to read them. Problem? You pretty much have to check the website every day for a week after an event in order try and catch one of these articles... Which means I rarely do.) 3. Saying you get what you want.. just later... doesn't fit because what people are asking for is to have the articles written sooner. The only good reason for not posting articles immediately on TL at this point should be because of lack of resources... Which very well might be the case. YES! LETS GO AGAIN! Mainstream sports site can spoil things because the following of the sport is: guess what: not as diverse or spread as competitive gaming. They're more people in a more condensed geographic area. That's for starters. The pressure of mainstream journalism on sports also relies on accuracy and speed and thus why they cannot be slower for better quality. That's point #2. I'm sure you can keep going from here. Let's move on: 2. Get more data, you can't make conclusive arguments solely based on the data you have, the lack of data should be a propeller to be more proactive and collect more data, not blurt out things you think purely because you can't do anything more than what you have. That's lazy. The people who don't care are also not accounted for nor the people who care that the site doesn't spoil things. That's two main kinds of people who don't account for and just assume they are irrelevant: that's lazy too. 3. Having the articles sooner is not solely due to avoiding spoilers. This was established already by staff member I believe, no? Having the articles sooner also doesn't mean anything: the news is the same, the winner is the same and the how it happened is still the same. What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question Round 6. I'm sorry if your frustrated... but I appreciate your efforts in defending the other side.. At least we can get this more fleshed out.... On to your counter points. 1. "The star craft community is more diverse than main stream sports" -- I think your vastly over estimating the SC2 community. I would bet there are more people contained in each time zone across the globe that care about soccer for example than all the time zones combined for SC2. 2. "The pole currently sucks' - Perhaps, but it is the best we have so far. As for your "The people who don't care are not counted in the pole".. well. that is the way all poles work. I think politicians should start using that line. (The election vote is invalid because of all the people who didn't care and did not vote) Policy decisions are always made by those who vote.. that how it works. As for calling us lazy for using a poll... At least the OP created a poll, which is more than you can say... and also.. I would through out this proposition. Team Liquid should be looking at site visits during major events. If they see an increase in traffic during events like MLG and IPL.. then I think its obvious that people here are coming to view the results of those events... If they see that trend.. that would be the most convulsive evidence you could have to start posting headline news. 3. "What changes by having the articles sooner, a lot of people elude this question" Posting the news sooner is having content delivered when demand is highest... When I watched IPL last Sunday and felt the excitement of watching Stephano win the tourne.. I would have stayed up all night reading article after article about the tournament and what it meant. However, as the week goes on.. you get back to work and move onto other things... If an article was posted about IPL today.. the chances of me reading now or still caring would be slim to none. I'm not going to say this as a fact.. but I wouldn't be surprised if this is how the majority of SC2 fans feel.. This was what the original poll was trying to determine as well. 1. Don't think you understood the point, sc2 fans are spread out across the world far more than something like baseball. Sure you might have pockets of NBA fans in the middle east but there is a dominant time zone. Its not the same for sc2, as we have the US/all of Europe and Korea churning out content and fans. 2. If the 'pole' was spotlighted and on the front page, with an OP that explains it much better and offers more choices, then the 'pole' wouldn't 'suck' so much. 3. Please read the thread, writers cannot produce the quality of content TL is known for without spending some time on it. If you'd prefer we change the The Daily Telegraph/The Times to The Sun... 1. Strawman. Yes, NBA's unique timezone is different, but that's why he didn't use that as an example. Soccer is much better and much more relevant. Fans of teams and players can be anywhere around the globe, and results are live pretty much everywhere. The responsibility to avoid coverage is on the person who hasn't seen the game, not on the teams/players/media/rest of the world. This is despite timezones. 2. This is a good point, but there is no reason for you to assume the poll would be much different. I'd love it if TL took this seriously enough to address it as a frontpage poll and discussion though, maybe we would learn quite a bit more about it. 3. False dichotomy. There is no reason to think both types of coverage cannot coexist. No one is arguing that the recaps and full coverage should be eliminated. Only that it should be supplemented with BREAKING NEWS style updates of important events. If anything, I would wager it would help bridge the gap between the events and the full recaps, keeping people interested longer and more enthralled when they finally do get the final articles.
1. Already counterpointed Soccer. Read back
2. We would confirm what I'm saying because I take into account more than just the people who already voted.
3. One already achieves all of the other. There's no point in devoting more manpower in something quickly rushed and poorly shown, it would deter quality of the site.
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I'm sorry, but I cannot argue with you. You seem particularly contrarian and have made too many unsound arguments and unbacked claims to have a fruitful discussion. That was why I responded to him and not you, Torte de Lini.
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On October 14 2011 10:51 geno wrote:
I'm sorry, but I cannot argue with you. You seem particularly contrarian and have made too many unsound arguments and unbacked claims to have a fruitful discussion. That was why I responded to him and not you, Torte de Lini.
Open forum means open replies.
He's saying the same things I'm saying hence why I agreed with him before you replied.
Yeah, unbacked. Good try: they're based off common sense or taking into account factors that would essentially break absolute statements. This is no different than the guys saying the poll is majority of TL rofl.
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I was just letting you know why I wouldn't respond, I'm well aware of the way forums work! It's nothing personal and I mean no insult, I can see you feel more strongly about this issue (or maybe just arguing) than most.
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On October 14 2011 10:45 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2011 10:40 DeAnconia wrote:
3. What demand is this? Who demands it? The people who watched the stream, saw the LR topic and frequented the liquipedia page? What are they demanding? What do they expect from the headline? A confirmation of what they already saw? They have 3 places already available to help confirm and several sites to do further discuss in addition to TL.
What demand? It's impossible to flesh out a fully-written and perfectly worded and edited article with images of the matches a day or two after the event, especially with the sites being delayed on uploading the VODs. It's not feasible and the demand isn't as high as you believe.
I feel since we are both so far on this particular point quoted above.. there is no reason to go much farther into the others. But yes, "A confirmation of what they saw" is EXACTLY what people are looking for and what I believe drives the majority of traffic to news websites. People watch the super bowl at a super bowl party... Go home.. and read the front page headline and write up on ESPN. People watch Pujols go 4-5 and lead the cardinals to a win on T.V, after the game they race to their computers to read about what they just watched. Same goes for almost every other sport... By the time Wednesday rolls around.. no one is reading super bowl stories any more. The idea that demand for event related content is highest right after an event is finished seems just so obvious to me... But perhaps in the world of starcraft it really is different than everything else as you suggest... but I doubt it.... -- As for my logic being wrong about why traffic goes up during the streams? I don't follow you here. Wouldn't people coming to watch the streams be exactly the target market for showing the headline news right after the event? Every big SC2 event I do 2 things.. I go to the stream site (MLG, IPL.. whatever) I throw that up on the big screen and then I go the the live report thread.. I watch the steam and read at the same time.. After the event is over.. I go back about 20 pages and re read the live event thread for view or opinion I may have missed. Which seems to be what the majority of people are doing on those threads as well. If there was an article posted within a half hour of the event.... that is when demand would be the highest for all those people that were watching the stream. Already listed three places where they can get confirmation + Other community websites. Are you having trouble reading that? Rofl, you skipped out on the other two points because there were no other alternatives or counterpoints, not because we have deviated. Nice try. 3. That isn't what drives the most views on a site, nope and you have no way of knowing either (myself included officially). Why are they going back reading about it? You never answered that? In addition, if they are reading, they're reading for opinions which is something you can get on the forums in the LR topic, not for confirmation: they know what they saw. You're hugely misinformed. As for the streams section: no, because they already know what they watched. The LR topic seems to already do what you want, I don't understand the point of the article and what exactly would it say more than the LR topic or how would it entirely encompass all that transpired in the LR topic and done in 30 fucking minutes lulz! Graphics team, Writers and editors have to do this in less than an hour? No pay and they have other priorities. Good one.
C'mon man.. I'm trying to be nice here. I didn't mention the first two points not because I felt you made a compelling argument ( I still agree with what I said... and with GENO above) but because none of it really matters if we disagree so much on point number 3.
Yes, I believe the reason why ESPN and other news sites put in an insane amount of resources to have full page write ups.. interviews.. 'rapid reactions' photos all available within MINUTES of a big time event ending... is because they believe as I do that the majority of traffic is generated by users looking for confirmation of what they just saw.
No... you don't believe this is the case...
Like you said. there is no way for either of us to know for sure outside of our own experiences and how we make conclusions. I personally behave in the above way (I watch the super bowl.. go home... click the front page story half hour later and read it)... you apparently don't. I make a conclusion that with all the resources ESPN and others put in to have news available within minutes of it happening... it must be because that is when demand and traffic is the highest.. but maybe your right and that is not the case.
It either is that way or it isn't... neither of us can prove the other person wrong.
With that being said.. I did miss your recommendation on which sites provide this service for SC2... I would definitely be interested.
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On October 14 2011 10:56 geno wrote:
I was just letting you know why I wouldn't respond, I'm well aware of the way forums work! It's nothing personal and I mean no insult, I can see you feel more strongly about this issue (or maybe just arguing) than most.
No, I'm not feeling strongly, I'm just posting for the sake of discussion to pass the time.
It's just odd to refuse discussing with me when he is saying literally the same things I am saying.
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EPT
