EPTIs the « spoiler fear » hurting E-sports ? - Page 41
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We are currently talking about this issue in the mod forum. We take this issue very seriously, and want to find the best way to serve those who want faster results, and those that don't wish to be spoiled. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
On October 14 2011 22:41 drcatellino wrote: 7%, that is indeed a clear minority. But a friendly community caters to the minority too. The solution is given a lot of times already though, so I don't understand why there is still the need to be so black or white about it. A frontpage with a headlines news section that can be toggled visible/invisible. | ||
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drcatellino
Canada346 Posts
On October 14 2011 22:50 xBillehx wrote: Include Klogon's pov, (link) I think it made a good point for comparisons to ESPN and such. Unfortunately I don't think the poll was taken with all point of views already in mind since the OP is slanted to one side, (props for updating it now I suppose) so it's not exactly a fair poll in the first place. You can tell so many posters didn't even read past the OP in the first place, so it's hard to imagine they took every side in consideration when deciding on their choice, and if a suggestion is to change the way TL works I feel that sort of stuff needs to be addressed fairly. I agree that results might have been different if both point of views would have been presented in the first place, but I doubt that the 7% would have became 50%. | ||
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
You fail to understand. There's nothing in the titles you have listed that would pique my interest to click on it. Because the last time I clicked, I was completely underwhelmed with information. I tried finding details. But no everyone had to skirt around what was so exciting because someone might be on the thread that hasn't watched the matches yet. I Spent two hours wading through the different posts to conclude S play was awesome. I felt I was doing work... And here I thought I was going to find excitement, thrills and fun. Instead... Nevermind, you clearly expect the world to do things like you, have knowledge and expertise in navigating TL's vast information database on their Fibreoptic connection. Sorry to break it to you but not everyone has your time, connection speed and effort to know where things are. Maybe next generation when it's the norm. On October 14 2011 21:36 xBillehx wrote: Provide examples please. I've read many threads to discuss recent games within 24 hours that have a spoiler warning & no one bitches because the warning is there. Volunteer to do the work and include a warning, it's as simple as that. Our Protoss Heroes (GSL Spoiler Alert) Korean Netizen Reactions to the IPL Finals Spoiler [GSL] Can we blame the maps? *possible spoilers* [SPOILER] [D] IM Zergs ZvP opener vs FFE [OSL Spoilers] In the Stadium of an OSL [OSL Spoilers] Huh. Did I make my point yet? Titles don't have to spoil, and popping up a warning if it's within 24 hours doesn't detract from the following discussion, nor the OP of the thread. If you're just relying on an eye catching title with little to no content in the OP what's the point of even having a thread? Just one click away brings you to many different pages to get quick results. All of these are 1 click away from the main teamliquid.net page. As for your rant, which IEM coverage thread are you talking about? The IEM Global Challenge New York - Day 0 Coverage one? | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 14 2011 22:55 drcatellino wrote: I agree that results might have been different if both point of views might have been presented in the first place, but I doubt that the 7% would have became 50%. No way to know really. Maybe make a new thread, or suggest something balanced to have in the normal Polls section for a TL wide vote. The poll doesn't even delve into specifics on whether or not such a feature should be toggle-able, and I have a hard time believing people would rather force their opinion on others than have a choice. On October 14 2011 22:58 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Instead... Nevermind, you clearly expect the world to do things like you, have knowledge and expertise in navigating TL's vast information database on their Fibreoptic connection. Sorry to break it to you but not everyone has your time, connection speed and effort to know where things are. Maybe next generation when it's the norm. All results are 1 click away from the Main page, and most of it is accessible from anywhere on the site. Is it really my fault you can't scroll to the side to see the links underneath the liquipedia bar, or the Partner Portals tab on the top bar? So what, now we're catering to the blind and lazy? Must we enlarge headlines to spoil things 5x the size of this text for people to get into e-Sports? Okay, let's have TL make a portal into the site with a big bold link for results and a tiny link leading to the actual site. Much better for the 56k connection peeps with no desire to navigate the site. After all they're exactly the kind of people we want around here. Edit: TBH it feels like you'd be more comfortable on something like gosugamers. They have the big links and photo's you want without any type of spoiler policy. If the majority really wanted it this way you'd think they'd be bigger than TL. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
Sounds reasonable to me. Unless you say the 7% are the blind and lazy. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 14 2011 23:23 canikizu wrote: if 86% of the people are blind and lazy, then yeah, I think we should cater for them. Let 7% of the unlazy and bright people doing the work of avoiding spoiler. Sounds reasonable to me. Unless you say the 7% are the blind and lazy. I already explained why I think the poll was unfair. I have a hard time believing 86% of TL would rather force their opinion on people rather than be given the choice in a toggleable feature, but hey, I know reading more than a few lines is hard. | ||
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canikizu
4860 Posts
And yes, i prefer to go to gosugamers for news than TL.net. I prefer to look at pictures of people, than picture of random logos and cartoonized characters on the front page to avoid spoiler. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 14 2011 23:58 canikizu wrote: If the poll content is retarded, people will vote no, if it's reasonable and that's what they want, they will vote yes. It's simple at that. The poll doesn't mention to do with toggeable feature, it's simple as "Do you think live tournment result on the front page is the good idea?" and 86% vote yes, because it mention live, tournament result, front page. Do you think the poll such as "Do you think limiting ive tournament result in LR thread and liquipedia for a week to avoid spoiler the good idea?" will have 86% vote yes? That's the poll title that bias for spoiler people, but do you honestly believe that 86% people will vote yes? And yes, i prefer to go to gosugamers for news than TL.net. I prefer to look at pictures of people, than picture of random logos and cartoonized characters on the front page to avoid spoiler. I'll just quote my posts from up top as to why I think it's unfair. "Unfortunately I don't think the poll was taken with all point of views already in mind since the OP is slanted to one side, (props for updating it now I suppose) so it's not exactly a fair poll in the first place. You can tell so many posters didn't even read past the OP, so it's hard to imagine they took every side in consideration when deciding on their choice, and if a suggestion is to change the way TL works I feel that sort of stuff needs to be addressed fairly." "The poll doesn't even delve into specifics on whether or not such a feature should be toggle-able, and I have a hard time believing people would rather force their opinion on others than have a choice." Basically for something that changes how TL has worked for years now (hell, it's even in the commandments) I don't feel the poll in the OP, especially when it was 100% slanted to one side, does the decision justice. If you have any argument against my above quotes I'm happy to discuss them. If you go to gosugamers for news/prefer it that way then why not stick to gosugamers and stop trying to change TL.net? Like I said, you'd think they'd be bigger if people really do prefer stuff like that. e-Sports extends further than teamliquid. Apparently e-Sports already has these type of things but they aren't really too popular. | ||
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Sina92
Sweden1303 Posts
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roflSloth
Canada43 Posts
I go to my TV to watch football or my DVR recorded soccer games. I go to ESPN.com for sports news. I go to TL.net to watch SC2 live or find links to VODs. I go to TL.net for esports news. -- Now throw in the fact that we are an international site with many timezones and schedules. Is the difference clear enough there? As the hub for both the viewing experience and the news, the only way we can accommodate both is if we keep the front page spoiler free for at least some time. As far as spoilers go? Yes, they are a big deal. If you spoil something for me somewhere where you were not supposed to, I would probably ban you. I am the type of person who does not watch trailers for movies because it spoils 2 minutes of the movie for me. Some people care a lot and it detracts from the viewing experience. I'd even go as far as to say spoilering the results ahead of time would be hurting esports more by not allowing the delayed viewers the same epic experience as the live viewers. And no, this is not hurting ESPORTS. See, but this counterargument (and the majority of arguments in this thread, both for and against spoilers) is only looking at the OP from an exclusively personal point of view. It seemed to me that the main focus of the OP was to TL more accessible to a newcomer unfamiliar with SC2 - that is, if TL did have spoilers, then someone who stumbles upon TL via twitter or a friend or Google will likely be more immediately interested in the scene. Of course everyone has their own opinion (even though the poll seems to be spectacularly lopsided), and that's fine, but the way I interpreted it, drcatellino was suggesting a spoilered TL not to please the (apparent) majority, but to do the most we can to make SC2 more accessible to random people, in the interest of expanding SC2's fanbase. | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 15 2011 01:56 roflSloth wrote: See, but this counterargument (and the majority of arguments in this thread, both for and against spoilers) is only looking at the OP from an exclusively personal point of view. It seemed to me that the main focus of the OP was to TL more accessible to a newcomer unfamiliar with SC2 - that is, if TL did have spoilers, then someone who stumbles upon TL via twitter or a friend or Google will likely be more immediately interested in the scene. Of course everyone has their own opinion (even though the poll seems to be spectacularly lopsided), and that's fine, but the way I interpreted it, drcatellino was suggesting a spoilered TL not to please the (apparent) majority, but to do the most we can to make SC2 more accessible to random people, in the interest of expanding SC2's fanbase. I'd understand that if these random people who stumble across the scene would recognize player names, but you see they don't. What difference is it to them whether it says "Stephano Dominates" or "Unexpected IPL3 Winner Dominates"? And even if that really does make a difference, esports and SC2 exist outside of teamliquid.net. Gosugamers does what the OP suggests, yet it's not as popular as TL. If the majority of esports fans actually enjoy being spoiled they'd use Gosugamers, not Reddit, (because they downvote spoilers) and not TL, (because TL writers are capable of creating engaging titles without spoiling the results) but clearly that isn't the case. TL being the hub to find VOD's, watch VOD's and discuss games during/after they happen all in one is different than ESPN. You don't need to go to ESPN to find links to VOD's, or find out when VOD's are going to be out, but you do need to visit TL for that stuff. If Netflix spoiled the plot of movies on it's front page I'm pretty sure people would throw a shitfit. (i.e Dumbledor Dies! and then a link to Harry Potter 6) | ||
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pirsq
Australia145 Posts
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ | ||
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xBillehx
United States1289 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:33 pirsq wrote: A recent study showed that spoilers don't affect enjoyment, and if anything, knowing the ending actually enhances enjoyment. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ Go stand in a movie theater before the movie starts and spoil the story/twists while using that article as your defense. I'm genuinely curious about how that goes, so feel free to PM me your experience afterwards. | ||
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Logros
Netherlands9913 Posts
On October 15 2011 03:33 pirsq wrote: A recent study showed that spoilers don't affect enjoyment, and if anything, knowing the ending actually enhances enjoyment. http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/spoilers-dont-spoil-anything/ It's funny that you take one small study done with a few literary stories to suddenly mean that everyone doesn't mind getting spoilered for completely unrelated things. I for sure hate it and it takes a big part of the excitement out of watching and/or reading things. | ||
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Hatsu
United Kingdom474 Posts
The last couple of weeks have been quite intense for me in real life, with work and family commitments preventing me from watching the GSL. An old friend of mine and fellow starcraft addict, not knowing this, a couple of days ago posted on my Facebook message: "MVP!!!". Yesterday I sat down and decided to spend the day doing a GSL marathon to catch up with my wife, but I did not manage to enjoy it as I would have liked because, guess what, I already knew who would win that Round of 8 game 5 courtesy of that simple FB message. I think that keeping the site spoiler free or at least using spoiler warnings would be the only fair approach for those who cannot watch everything live. | ||
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Klipsys
United States1533 Posts
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Pr0spect
Sweden32 Posts
And I think this poll clearly states what the "community" wants out of the site, since 86% is a hefty majority. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
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Hattori_Hanzo
Singapore1229 Posts
On October 16 2011 02:18 Pr0spect wrote: Team Liquid calls itself a "news" site though mainly posting old content, don't you think that's a bit contradictory? And I think this poll clearly states what the "community" wants out of the site, since 86% is a hefty majority. No, posters in this thread believe old news is still news so a thread posted today titled "African American becomes President of United States of America" is still a valid news thread and cannot contain the name of said President as it will spoil the results to those who haven't been following the Presidential race. Thus we must respect their wishes with full support from TL.net's owners, staff and mods. Other posters have said that 3000 pollsters are not indicative of the whole community and thus bears no weight. Mods have demanded that those who want those results on the main page must come forward and volunteer writing. i.e. Zero staff support with hostile modding that will likely lock your thread. | ||
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