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On August 03 2011 21:45 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 19:09 Mortality wrote:On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote:
i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games
guys this is team effort not individual
but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player
and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr
in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't. PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year. Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO. I believe that performing in multiple leagues > performing to snipe mediocre players on certain maps in proleague. If you're gonna talk about past histories then you've missed a biggy. He was knocked out of MSL prelims this year by hyvaa. That's his best MU in a Bo3. Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of his opponents have been sub par with Bisu seldomly being sent in to play the ACE match.
Apparently you don't pay enough attention to Starcraft. I already covered the loss to hyvaa "...dropping from OSL prelims (again)"...which was NOT MSL, but OSL as I correctly stated the first time.
Of course doing well in multiple leagues is the goal. Bisu's inability to up his game for individual leagues is bad. He hasn't been playing poorly in individual leagues (although, please actually WATCH the games vs hyvaa instead of just hiding behind the result which everybody and their grandmother already knows), he just can't step his game up or vary his approach. Everyone knows that Bisu plays a Bisu style match every single game (whereas Flash, for instance, can vary his strategy and mindset a great deal) and because he's not NaDa he can't pull it off (at one point early in his career and before coaches played a relevant role in SC, NaDa would always follow a win with a rush in bo3, which is why so many of his bo3 results were WLW... everyone knew he was rushing; but in NaDa's case he was so far above everyone he could do stupid shit like that and win the series anyway).
But it has to be granted to Bisu that he's absolutely phenomenally good at what he does. And although he favors certain maps so does everyone, including Flash. Maps aren't the issue why he fails to advance in individual leagues.
Bisu is the primary ace player for SKT so I do not understand this remark. If he rarely plays ace it's because SKT matches rarely go to ace. A lot of his recent opponents have been subpar, this is true, but he's played and beaten a lot of strong players this year as well and there's no indication he has gotten worse. If anything, his wins continue looking super clean.
If Bisu carries SKT over KT including toppling Flash then I see no reason to deny him. That is all I have been saying. Important wins when the chips are down will put his past wins in perspective.
Obviously Bisu is not top 2 so far this PR period. Flash is the clear #1 and Zero has earned #2. #3 is probably Bisu because Hydra has been a bit inconsistent and JD has lost JvZ. But any kind of failure in the GF will probably push Hydra over Bisu. JD, having dropped out of OSL and not having been in the playoffs, is in a bad spot.
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And please LOOK AT the list of players Bisu defeated. They are the ACEs of many teams even if the matches were not ACEs.
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On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 23:31 aupstar wrote:On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record. 1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them. 2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago. On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon. 3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time... + Show Spoiler +For the record - Flash is 6:1 vs Hyuk Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here?
Yeah, one time Flash was knocked out of both the OSL and MSL. This was after making 6 straight finals, and he won the very next MSL and is in the current OSL. Compared to Bisu, who was knocked out of the very same OSL and MSLs, plus several before those, and the ones after, except for the current MSL.
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On August 04 2011 04:50 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote:On August 03 2011 23:31 aupstar wrote:On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record. 1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them. 2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago. On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon. 3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time... + Show Spoiler +For the record - Flash is 6:1 vs Hyuk Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here? Yeah, one time Flash was knocked out of both the OSL and MSL. This was after making 6 straight finals, and he won the very next MSL and is in the current OSL. Compared to Bisu, who was knocked out of the very same OSL and MSLs, plus several before those, and the ones after, except for the current MSL.
I think what happened to Flash sets a good precedent for Bisu to be ABLE to take #1 PROVIDED the correct set of circumstances occur. Consider that while Flash had made 6 straight finals, there was that extra long gap between seasons, so those events were pretty far in the rearview mirror when suddenly, out of nowhere, Flash played like suck. Flash didn't just have bad luck, he played like suck. It was like watching your average low/mid A-class player, not an S-class giant. And some people blamed Icarus for his loss to Hyuk, but it was just a terrible game.
Flash dropped to #5 on the next ranking. It was deserved. He dropped from both leagues and his last SL title had been earned something like 3 months ago.
The next ranking, what happened? Flash played very well in SWL and was elevated back to #1.
Bisu didn't play like suck against hyvaa. Hyvaa prepared well and it showed, and hyvaa happens to be a moderately strong ZvPer right now. He did everything he could to prevent Bisu from playing a Bisu style match and it worked, just barely. Obviously that has to be held against Bisu, but it does not raise any new questions about his skill; only verifies something we already knew.
Bisu right now is in a holding pattern. He's been raping opponents left and right, but for 2 months he has had easy games. He's played tough players in 2011 (and won a lot of those), but not so much recently. This means we don't see anything new when we see Bisu play -- just more proof that S-class > low A-class/B-class opponents with consistency. The GF are an opportunity for Bisu to escape the holding pattern if he faces tough opponents. If Stats plays his best, he is a high level PvPer who will be a good test to see if Bisu really is a clear #1 PvP or if nobody is distinguishable. And beating Flash at least once is a MUST for overtaking Flash on the ranking, for more reasons than one.
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Can you guys come to an agreement on the "past achievements" matter? Its mighty difficult to argue when people from the same side says both "he plays only 3 games this month" and also Flash making 6 Straight Finals (for f sake, it's not even this season)
Im tempted to write another essay to reiterate the points you seemingly are refusing to see. But i probably cant put it better than Mortality did, so kindly read his post and agree/disagree as you see fit.
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It's been well-established that Power Rank is a ranking released monthly, but is not a monthly rank (i.e. doesn't just take into account games for the prior month). The exact criteria is a little bit fuzzy—as it should be since it's not some objective statistical rank, but it should generally reflect the best and most feared players at any given time.
Flash was actually punished when he dropped out of both leagues. He dropped down to #5, just like Bisu is right now.
I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that.
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It's impracticle to create a true "one month only" rank because pro SC does not follow a monthly schedule.
Regarding past results, they matter in the context of telling you what new results really mean.
Since the new PL season, Flash has won exactly one gold medal. I think that's the only gold medal relevant to this discussion. Of course, Flash is the #2 in PL with like 75% wins +/- as opposed to Bisu's 80% +/- and that's not a huge difference. And of course, the momentum Flash was losing after his MSL championship have been mostly recovered (although I'd hesitate to say "fully") since then. So far he has had the busiest and most difficult schedule of anyone and has done the best. None of the sensible posters are denying that.
But two games should be able to change the ranking. If Bisu did play Flash twice and win twice, it would even up their head-to-head results for the year. It would also establish Bisu as being on paper dominant against any opponent as it would put Bisu's PvT ELO higher than anyone's TvP ELO and his PvZ ELO is already higher than anyone's ZvP ELO (with results over JD backing this claim) and his PvP ELO is #1. But actually, I keep going back to the notion that I want to see him play Stats when Stats is playing his very utmust best as one of the two possible wins since PvP has been Bisu's weakest point in 2011 and I want to see that the weakness is closed for good before Bisu takes the top spot.
Bisu needs a "perfect storm" set of conditions to steal the top spot, but it's not outside the range of possibility and it would be deserved if he could do this. Of course it's not just whether he wins, but how he wins. Cheesing Flash for a victory might help the team, but it won't mean the same thing as a clean win in a macro game. Beating Stats is great for SKT, but it won't mean much for Bisu's rank unless Stats brings his best performance. Etc.
People keep talking stats (and usually BUTCHERING them in order to try to manipulate positions, rather than understand them) and continually ignoring QUALITY of performance. That's why these games are so important: Bisu has been showing lots of quality but against crap competition for 2 months. If he can show quality against the best, that will mean A LOT.
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On August 04 2011 05:44 SimonB wrote:
I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that.
I agree with this. The only way I can see Bisu as #1 is winning twice in the SPL finals including at least 1 decisive win over Flash. Short of that (like SKT winning with Bisu 1 win over KT zerg or even Flash) Flash is still the scarier person, but Bisu will be a solid #2. Flash has almost as many wins/win % in SPL, still dual-leaguing, and is just coming back from yet another fresh MSL win.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake.
It was the OSL, and its more than a mistake when it happens season after season after season. Bisu's last ro8 appearance for example was Avalon MSL (2 years ago). I am not saying this as related to the PR (as most of it is historical now) but I wouldn't say Bisu failing in individual leagues is a mistake at this point. He's like a stronger SPL version of Sea or Light. They dominate SPL, but nobody is surprised when they fail in leauges. Bisu has not been a threat in there for quite some time, as shown by the Individual League Ranking for this month.
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/InUdg.jpg) That's Sea at #19, Light at #32 and Bisu at #34
On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote:
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all.
Except he dropped a bo3 to hyvaa when he dropped out of the OSL, not bo1, so he had 2 chances to advance against hyvaa.
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i sincerely dont see bisu taking number one, by any means, flash is clearly number one whatever happens on SPL.
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I think Bisu shouldn't get no.1 in any situation, despite the excellent analysis by Mortality. 2 wins over Flash or 1 win against Stats and another against Flash would simply highlight the benefit of preparation (as what happened to KT v SKT last year). It should, however, elevate him to no.1 contender status with the caveat that advancing in the individuals would probably mean overtaking Flash the following month.
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I'm a rabid Flash fan, as you all might know, but even I think Bisu should get #1 if he takes down Flash twice (in proper games). That's pretty much the only scenario though, at the moment Flash is definitely the top dog.
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For me, if the rank happened now, I would say:
1. Flash
2. Bisu
3. ZerO
4/5/6. Jaedong/Hydra/Soulkey
7. soO
8. Jangbi
9. Light
10. Leta/HoeJJa/roO/Modesty?/other
In light of that, I would put Bisu #1, iff
Bisu beats at least one S-class opponent: Flash, Stats playing well, HoeJJa's/Action's ZvP if they play at the top of their game
AND
Flash loses all games (=at least once), especially if he loses to a player who is not Bisu/BeSt/fantasy
So we could have: Flash loses, Bisu beats Stats (or other), SKT wins w/o ace
OR Bisu beats Flash, SKT wins
OR Flash loses, Bisu wins all games, Flash not sent for ace (regardless of team result)
What I don't think would give Bisu #1 would be this: Bisu wins a game (even against Flash), Flash loses, and then SKT wins in ace vs. Flash but with Bisu not as ace. If SKT has to play an ace game but doesn't send Bisu (on probably the most balanced PL map atm), they say "we don't think Bisu can beat Flash consistently even though he's our best player," and to me that means Bisu can't be #1.
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On August 04 2011 07:17 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 05:44 SimonB wrote:
I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that. I agree with this. The only way I can see Bisu as #1 is winning twice in the SPL finals including at least 1 decisive win over Flash. Short of that (like SKT winning with Bisu 1 win over KT zerg or even Flash) Flash is still the scarier person, but Bisu will be a solid #2. Flash has almost as many wins/win % in SPL, still dual-leaguing, and is just coming back from yet another fresh MSL win. Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. It was the OSL, and its more than a mistake when it happens season after season after season. Bisu's last ro8 appearance for example was Avalon MSL (2 years ago). I am not saying this as related to the PR (as most of it is historical now) but I wouldn't say Bisu failing in individual leagues is a mistake at this point. He's like a stronger SPL version of Sea or Light. They dominate SPL, but nobody is surprised when they fail in leauges. Bisu has not been a threat in there for quite some time, as shown by the Individual League Ranking for this month. + Show Spoiler +That's Sea at #19, Light at #32 and Bisu at #34 Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote:
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. Except he dropped a bo3 to hyvaa when he dropped out of the OSL, not bo1, so he had 2 chances to advance against hyvaa.
The "MSL" mistake was with the poster, who said that Hyvaa eliminated Bisu from the "MSL" which should have been OSL. Although i understand the hates as you are all too willing to grab at any little chance to pull another short essay just to go over Bisu's individual league results yet again, after it has been discussed at length many times over.
Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too.
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Does Zero get a pass to #1 if both Bisu and Flash fail?
=P
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On August 04 2011 12:32 ffreakk wrote:
Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too.
The difference is that Bisu hasn't achieved anything at all in the Starleagues since early '09, roughly two years ago (he hasn't even reached the Bo5 stages a single time since then). He doesn't falter sometimes on rare occasions, like JD and Flash does, he falters every damn time.
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On August 04 2011 12:54 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 12:32 ffreakk wrote:
Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too. The difference is that Bisu hasn't achieved anything at all in the Starleagues since early '09, roughly two years ago (he hasn't even reached the Bo5 stages a single time since then). He doesn't falter sometimes on rare occasions, like JD and Flash does, he falters every damn time.
I believe on Power Ranks discussion, generally we only consider happenings of the current season yes? Else we would probably have Nada up there along with a good many others.
This season BIsu is:
-knocked out of MSL by Stork (on some kind of monster form back then), and then Flash. No shame in losing to either of these players.
-knocked out of the OSL prelims by Hyvaa. Now despite the fact that Hyvaa played well above his usual game (read: very well), it is a disappointment. But it is pretty much the only glaring faults of Bisu's this season.
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You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live.
It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk
I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
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On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote:You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match. This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong. The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations. Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong. And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best. @ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
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On August 04 2011 15:40 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote:You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match. This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong. The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations. Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong. And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best. @ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up.. Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts. Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches. Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
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Hoejja will be number one in the power rank when he beats Fantasy and Bisu team melee'ing in the ace match.
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EPT
