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On August 03 2011 01:43 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 19:00 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 15:58 Winechu wrote:On August 02 2011 15:44 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 15:21 Winechu wrote:On August 02 2011 14:56 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote:
The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot. But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/ It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games. Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous. And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own. You cannot be serious. You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted. And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR. For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that. Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals? Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR. Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then. Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way. Saying a word twice is spamming? What are you even talking about? Why are you referring to yourself as "the opposing side"? Incidentally, pretty sure that saying "Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot." is a lot more negative than using the word "farcical".
If that came off wrong, i apologize. Maybe "KT fans" would have been better, but either way i didnt mean it badly by any means.
Imo, Flash is the number 1 player at the moment, but after his MSL he hasnt been invincible enough that his throne is unshakable in light of a upcoming event as major as SPL Grand Finals. Depending on his performance (and Bisu's, whos the "challenger") in the Grand Finals, a take over might be possible, however unlikely.
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On August 03 2011 01:43 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 19:00 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 15:58 Winechu wrote:On August 02 2011 15:44 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 15:21 Winechu wrote:On August 02 2011 14:56 ffreakk wrote:On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote:
The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot. But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/ It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games. Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous. And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own. You cannot be serious. You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted. And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR. For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that. Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals? Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR. Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then. Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way. Incidentally, pretty sure that saying "Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot." is a lot more negative than using the word "farcical".
Not at all. You must look at the blunt meaning of these words. Not your speculation of poster's implication.
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well considering flash came from an injury and still manage to secure his 1st position, its quite amazing imo.
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United States10192 Posts
are we gonna see the august PR? or is flamewheel waiting for the SPL finals to be over with so he can move up all the KT members once they win? 
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On August 03 2011 04:45 FlaShFTW wrote:are we gonna see the august PR? or is flamewheel waiting for the SPL finals to be over with so he can move up all the KT members once they win?
Learn to read the rest of the thread? You can at the very least press "all" and then ctrl+f and search for key word (try: next).
I don't see why we are arguing about Flash's position as #1. Bisu will have to walk on mother fucking water in order to steal that spot from Flash. And I mean, against good opponents, one of which should be named Flash. Fantasy has no chance at #1. None. Top 3 maybe, but you don't go from 0 to 1 just off a handful of wins following a really bad slump. You don't. Zero would be a much better #1 candidate and as of right this instance, Zero is #2 behind Flash. But I'm not sure Zero plays any more games before the rank goes up.
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If Bisu happens to play Flash twice in the SPL finals and beat him 2-0, then yes, Bisu should be #1.
But honestly, that is the only scenario possible.
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On August 02 2011 02:55 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC. To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments. That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again. Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC.
In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years).
Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course).
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On August 03 2011 06:37 Crisium wrote:
If Bisu happens to play Flash twice in the SPL finals and beat him 2-0, then yes, Bisu should be #1.
But honestly, that is the only scenario possible.
I believe in this outcome bisu should be ahead. maybe if bisu roflstomps flash in one game and wins another then he could also be #1. Otherwise you might as well give it to flash
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On August 03 2011 06:51 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 02:55 Oystein wrote:On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC. To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments. That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again. Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC. In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years). Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course).
Hes a lot like fbh used to be (tho fbh had way better overall mechanics and had everything going for him beeing a good tvp player) he should be able to win games, but just end up losing. While his micro was superb, but his macro was rather meh, and regardless how "well" you play it does not matter when you just keep on losing because of terrible descionmaking. I remember so many times watching casy play and just shake my head in disbelief as he would lose in horrible ways.
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i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games
guys this is team effort not individual
but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player
and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr
in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
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On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote:
i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games
guys this is team effort not individual
but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player
and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr
in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I (along with some others, for sure) dont necessarily agree with this.
Sure Flash is strong right now, and all else unchanged, he will sit atop the PR again. But since after the MSL, he has been mortal enough for me to believe that his PR throne is shakable (only by 1 player at the moment). SPL Grand Finals performance is very importatnt, and may provide a big enough blow to usurp Flash' place.
Im not saying its likely, im saying that imo it is possible.
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On August 03 2011 16:08 Oystein wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 06:51 Mortality wrote:On August 02 2011 02:55 Oystein wrote:On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote:
And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC. To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments. That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again. Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC. In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years). Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course). Hes a lot like fbh used to be (tho fbh had way better overall mechanics and had everything going for him beeing a good tvp player) he should be able to win games, but just end up losing. While his micro was superb, but his macro was rather meh, and regardless how "well" you play it does not matter when you just keep on losing because of terrible descionmaking. I remember so many times watching casy play and just shake my head in disbelief as he would lose in horrible ways.
But as I said, it was really his timing ability that was killing him. It was like he was missing one skill and it always looked ugly. His macro wasn't bad because of mechanics, but because he had no timing sense to back it up. Every loss I remember boiled down to timing mistakes.
FBH also had some timing problems, but not in the same ways or degrees. He could actually pull off a very good early-midgame timing push. I don't think that's the best comparison.
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On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote:
i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games
guys this is team effort not individual
but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player
and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr
in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't.
PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year.
Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
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notice how its all T1 fans who are calling for bisu to be number one. how can he just jump up to number one based on his previous performance this year? that should have been counted for in previous PRs, you cant just jump to number one off only 1-2 games when other people have performed better than you this month.
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On August 03 2011 19:09 Mortality wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote:
i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games
guys this is team effort not individual
but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player
and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr
in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't. PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year. Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
I believe that performing in multiple leagues > performing to snipe mediocre players on certain maps in proleague.
If you're gonna talk about past histories then you've missed a biggy. He was knocked out of MSL prelims this year by hyvaa. That's his best MU in a Bo3.
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of his opponents have been sub par with Bisu seldomly being sent in to play the ACE match.
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A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
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On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them.
2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago.
On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon.
3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time...
+ Show Spoiler +For the record - Flash is 6:1 vs Hyuk
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On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
most SKT fans mindlessly support bisu; likely because a lot of the SKT fans actually come from the SC2 forums for some reason
therefore it is pointless to argue with SKT fans in the BW forums
i think it is the general consensus amongst non-SKT fans that unless Flash drops 2 games to bisu in SPL finals, his #1 position is rather solid
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On August 03 2011 23:31 aupstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote:
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record. 1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them. 2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago. On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon. 3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time... + Show Spoiler +For the record - Flash is 6:1 vs Hyuk
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here?
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EPT
