BeSt, Bogus, Jaehoon, Killer, Light, RorO, Sea These were all players that I considered for the actual tenth spot. Unfortunately, for one reason or another, it's very hard to choose amongst them. I think it's for the best to leave that question unanswered.
Shoutouts
Peace A month overdue, but I have felt bad for a month for forgetting. His play this month has been less than stellar, but I do like it when ACE players do well.
PianO Despite not qualifying for either MST or ODT, Piano's done surprisingly well in Proleague. 4-1 over A-team regulars is nothing to scoff at.
Reality Seven Proleague matches this month. Four wins against powerful A-team players. Three losses against not-so-powerful A-team players.
On July 01 2011 17:02 flamewheel wrote: Reality Seven Proleague matches this month. Four wins against powerful A-team players. Three losses against not-so-powerful A-team players.
He didn't just "win" against those A-temers. He beat them down convincingly. If you just watch VODs of his wins, you'd think he's easily one of the best players around. The problem, of course, is that he still only wins less than half his games. And his losses are quite forgettable.
I'll take this time to post something, thats basically an in-joke between me and my friend who watches starcraft, its about Jangbi.
When I started watching BW live was around the time of the Gom invitational and the individual league set up by GOM casted by Tasteless, I started watching proleague around the end of the 6 dragons era. During this time I heard how the 6 dragons were dominating, but for some reason never ever saw Jangbi play, be it scheduling or simply bad timing. By the time I finally was able to watch Jangbi, I saw him lose, every time, in fact, his recent slump coincided exactly with me having more free time to watch proleague, and I've watched every game he lost (I also missed the 2 games he won).
Now I'm not saying that I'm a curse or anything, but starting in the middle of May, I went on vacation to China, since then, I have not been able to watch BW at all. What happens during this time? Jangbi decides to win every televised game he's in, and make it in both leagues. All of this I have to find out the next day in the Results section.
So, my vacation ends at the end of August, I expect a silver from Jangbi at least, also I expect khan to do well in proleague until the finals (I'm in Shanghai).
Pretty good PR. If we discount Yellow's obligatory spot, we end up with Flash>JD>Hydra>Bisu>Zero, which I personally think is the perfect assesment of the top 5.
In the coming days, I'm looking forward to seeing JD take that top spot. Though I'm sure plenty will discredit him based on Flash's injury(which I won't try to pretend isn't relevant), personally I'll be reassured by their recent history. I believe now is the time for Jaedong to both catch and surpass Flash once again, and hopefully set the stage for a new era in their rivalry, pending flash's recovery.
Honestly, I think the future of BW looks very exciting.
YellOw was fucked up by stupid maps and the very best terrans all his life. He's probably the 3rd best ZvTer ever despite that (3rd highest vs T elo peak ever, this guy was a god of ZvT...). He deserved a gold more than anyone who hasn't one, and more than some who have. He should have been n°1 this month. But Flash tied Nada, and became the greatest progamer ever. This very month. Fucked up by terran was I saying ? Nice ranking though =)
While I'm happy you've put Flash up there so resoundingly I have to say I think you should've written moar about him. I hope Flash gets a fair chance to defend his position next month, and not get overtaken due to lack of play/play held back and worsened by his injury.
Also, nice little tribute to Yellow with the #2 spot, he deserved that one.
On July 01 2011 19:25 corumjhaelen wrote: YellOw was fucked up by stupid maps and the very best terrans all his life. He's probably the 3rd best ZvTer ever despite that (3rd highest vs T elo peak ever, this guy was a god of ZvT...). He deserved a gold more than anyone who hasn't one, and more than some who have. He should have been n°1 this month. But Flash tied Nada, and became the greatest progamer ever. This very month. Fucked up by terran was I saying ? Nice ranking though =)
Have to disagree. If you lost, you lost. No ifs, buts, maybes, whatever. Those are just excuses. Yellow doesn't "deserve" a gold any more than other players who lost in the finals. Because he lost. And it's not like I don't know how you feel. My favorite player is Stork, and I make no excuses about any of his finals losses. You could say he lost to Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu at their peaks, and that perhaps goon range could've won that 5th game against Bisu. But the reality is that he still lost those matches.
As for maps, Savior had bad maps against him. Scratch that, he had maps that were literally anti-zerg against him, and still won. Katrina was suppose to be PvT heaven where Stork is unstoppable, yet Flash beat him senseless on Katrina.
In the end, if you are good enough, you will rise above the maps. As Yellow did not, he deserves this final #2 Ranking. Because despite all his success, he could not rise above #2.
On July 01 2011 19:25 corumjhaelen wrote: YellOw was fucked up by stupid maps and the very best terrans all his life. He's probably the 3rd best ZvTer ever despite that (3rd highest vs T elo peak ever, this guy was a god of ZvT...). He deserved a gold more than anyone who hasn't one, and more than some who have. He should have been n°1 this month. But Flash tied Nada, and became the greatest progamer ever. This very month. Fucked up by terran was I saying ? Nice ranking though =)
Have to disagree. If you lost, you lost. No ifs, buts, maybes, whatever. Those are just excuses. Yellow doesn't "deserve" a gold any more than other players who lost in the finals. Because he lost. And it's not like I don't know how you feel. My favorite player is Stork, and I make no excuses about any of his finals losses. You could say he lost to Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu at their peaks, and that perhaps goon range could've won that 5th game against Bisu. But the reality is that he still lost those matches.
As for maps, Savior had bad maps against him. Scratch that, he had maps that were literally anti-zerg against him, and still won. Katrina was suppose to be PvT heaven where Stork is unstoppable, yet Flash beat him senseless on Katrina.
In the end, if you are good enough, you will rise above the maps. As Yellow did not, he deserves this final #2 Ranking. Because despite all his success, he could not rise above #2.
YellOw>Sync and quite a few others. You can have lucky SL runs, even though they are rare. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/98 is worse than anything sAviOr had to play on (and the only ZvT win was... YellOw...). Honestly, I've watched Coca Cola OSL final quite a few time and I'll say it. YellOw deserved to loose against Oov, Nada, even Xellos, but not against Boxer that day. He played better starcraft that dar, and he would have won if the 5th map had been Neo Jungle Story or Neo Legacy of Char. And BW history would have been completely changed. You're free to disagree, but that's how I feel.
On July 01 2011 19:25 corumjhaelen wrote: YellOw was fucked up by stupid maps and the very best terrans all his life. He's probably the 3rd best ZvTer ever despite that (3rd highest vs T elo peak ever, this guy was a god of ZvT...). He deserved a gold more than anyone who hasn't one, and more than some who have. He should have been n°1 this month. But Flash tied Nada, and became the greatest progamer ever. This very month. Fucked up by terran was I saying ? Nice ranking though =)
Have to disagree. If you lost, you lost. No ifs, buts, maybes, whatever. Those are just excuses. Yellow doesn't "deserve" a gold any more than other players who lost in the finals. Because he lost. And it's not like I don't know how you feel. My favorite player is Stork, and I make no excuses about any of his finals losses. You could say he lost to Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu at their peaks, and that perhaps goon range could've won that 5th game against Bisu. But the reality is that he still lost those matches.
As for maps, Savior had bad maps against him. Scratch that, he had maps that were literally anti-zerg against him, and still won. Katrina was suppose to be PvT heaven where Stork is unstoppable, yet Flash beat him senseless on Katrina.
In the end, if you are good enough, you will rise above the maps. As Yellow did not, he deserves this final #2 Ranking. Because despite all his success, he could not rise above #2.
The joke here is that Yellow did win enough games, in a final, to win a title. They just all got regamed.
The order of the rank looks okay, but some of the things you are saying don't make sense. Hydra beat hyvaa. He lost to Juni. Zero did drop a PL match, to Kal.
I actually think you are underranking firebathero. He has played some stellar games and even his losses have shown some great maturity on his part. His loss in particular against Best, for example, shows just how far he has come as a player, and considering he is regularly going up against opposing team Ace players (who, when playing vs. ACE, really only need to prepare for a vTerran threat unless ggaemo gets sent out) FBH is playing some excellent starcraft.
Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
Yellow~~ Love the #2 tribute. For all the people that are upset he never got a medal, I look at it this way: there are plenty winners that have been forgotten or have lost their #1 glory, but Hong Jin Ho has become a legend. What would have happened had he won? I don't know, but I feel it would have been hard to beat the love that he has now =)
And go Hoejja! It's amazing how Jangbi, Hoejja and Best have all started doing well... Breaking the pae-wang line!
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
Flash won't meet Bisu because he's getting seeded every SL except the recent 2, while Bisu can't pass the prelims + Show Spoiler +
On July 01 2011 21:51 Mortality wrote: The order of the rank looks okay, but some of the things you are saying don't make sense. Hydra beat hyvaa. He lost to Juni. Zero did drop a PL match, to Kal.
That's the problem of writing for six hours. I will change the stuff.
Great PR ! I would have done (I wouldn't have thought of YellOw myself but he MUST be #2 this month) 1. Flash 2. YellOw 3. JD 4. Bisu 5. Hydra 6. Jangbi 7. ZerO 8. Movie 9. Best 10. Hoejja
WTF 3 PAE WANGs in my PR ?! Fuck yeah !
edit : wait, if Hoejja isn't a poisoned mushroom anymore, is he going to be the next one to feed Flash ?
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
he aint even mentioning the right league he won ^^
I'm not sure I'm on board the HoeJJa train yet, but otherwise a good ranking. The OSL is gonna be a Zerg swarm, so only fitting that we see 6 Zergs in the PR before the Ro16. At least the MST is majority Protoss so far.
On July 02 2011 00:50 Crisium wrote: I'm not sure I'm on board the HoeJJa train yet, but otherwise a good ranking. The OSL is gonna be a Zerg swarm, so only fitting that we see 6 Zergs in the PR before the Ro16. At least the MST is majority Protoss so far.
Watch the games vs Sea, Kal and Stork for instance..
On July 02 2011 00:50 Crisium wrote: I'm not sure I'm on board the HoeJJa train yet, but otherwise a good ranking. The OSL is gonna be a Zerg swarm, so only fitting that we see 6 Zergs in the PR before the Ro16. At least the MST is majority Protoss so far.
I don't know if anybody's totally on-board with the Hoejja train—that is, can he be an actually good player—but he is probably the coolest player since the last Kang Min retired, and so it's nice to give him a #10 spot after he's had a good month (and not just good results, really good play).
Even if I think I know better, I have to believe he's going to become the greatest player ever shortly after getting elected president of the world.
I'm not really on board with the Hoejja train, but it seems like every time I watch him he loses. So maybe Hoejja fans should see it as good that I didn't watch any of his wins?
On July 02 2011 01:48 Mortality wrote: I'm not really on board with the Hoejja train, but it seems like every time I watch him he loses. So maybe Hoejja fans should see it as good that I didn't watch any of his wins?
The only reason Hoejja is on the list is because of the quality of games he played against a fairly solid list of opponents, I'm not sure anyone else has a take down list as good as Stork, Sea, Kal, Horang2, Roro, and, to a much lesser extent, ggaemo. The downside is, everyone he beat was in a slump of sorts besides Horang2 (also that game was amazing goddamn), or was a ZvZ. The big problem is he's shown brilliance before only to follow it up with nearly 3 years of invisibility. 10 spot in good faith, at best, and recognition for awesome games.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
Flash won't meet Bisu because he's getting seeded every SL except the recent 2, while Bisu can't pass the prelims + Show Spoiler +
umad?
Is this 4chan or something? Why am I getting "umad?" posts?
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
he aint even mentioning the right league he won ^^
You guys actually think he's playing well right now? Well, that's fine I guess, as that's your opinion. From my perspective, I look at the actual games he's played since his MSL (You're right, I fucked up), and they haven't been all that great to me: he's clearly not the same player he was even four weeks ago. I'm under the impression that Flash with a wrist injury is going to get destroyed, like he currently is in the Proleague.
You think not, but that's fine, it's not a big deal to have a difference in opinion. Starcraft is largely subjective. What I'm bitching about is for a better write-up for why Flash remains number one despite his recent failures in Proleague and injury, rather than an screenshot of his TLPD page that shows all his past achievements which is entirely irrelevant to this month's PR, a joke to his friend 343, and thinly-veiled insults to those who disagree with Flash's #1 ranking.
But I guess "Imad" or "soserious" or something along those lines.
I just gave you a reason. He won the MSL by humiliating two great zergs 6-0, one of which you said would beat him in a Bo5. Sorry, Flash is more than just the amount of actions his wrist can put out. His wrist problem was every bit as existent during that MSL run and he proved that he could not only win, but utterly dominate his opposition in spite of it through pure strategy.
Flamewheel gave you plenty: As far as he was concerned, Flash was unbeatable in his MSL win this month. That's more important than anyone else's handful of proleague games.
On July 02 2011 02:54 Mortality wrote: In fairness, Stork and Kal are in pretty ugly slumps and Sea isn't as strong at TvZ right now as he was a year ago.
But as I said, it seems I only ever watch Hoejja when he loses which is why I'm not really on the train. I didn't watch most of those games.
That's great I guess, I guess you're just agreeing with me then, since you said what I did? That aside, just go watch em, they were, honest to goodness, really good games. Particularly the one vs Horang2!
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
Flash won't meet Bisu because he's getting seeded every SL except the recent 2, while Bisu can't pass the prelims + Show Spoiler +
umad?
Is this 4chan or something? Why am I getting "umad?" posts?
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
he aint even mentioning the right league he won ^^
You guys actually think he's playing well right now? Well, that's fine I guess, as that's your opinion. From my perspective, I look at the actual games he's played since his MSL (You're right, I fucked up), and they haven't been all that great to me: he's clearly not the same player he was even four weeks ago. I'm under the impression that Flash with a wrist injury is going to get destroyed, like he currently is in the Proleague.
You think not, but that's fine, it's not a big deal to have a difference in opinion. Starcraft is largely subjective. What I'm bitching about is for a better write-up for why Flash remains number one despite his recent failures in Proleague and injury, rather than an screenshot of his TLPD page that shows all his past achievements which is entirely irrelevant to this month's PR, a joke to his friend 343, and thinly-veiled insults to those who disagree with Flash's #1 ranking.
But I guess "Imad" or "soserious" or something along those lines.
I just spent twenty minutes typing up a response to you, but then decided that it wasn't worth it. Look mate, I can accept criticism, but I don't particularly care for "bitching".
I've read your past PR comment from the 12/15/10 Power Rank, and you seem to think that all relevant data that should factor into the ranking should come exclusively from the month in question. That's not the case here, since artificially limiting data leads to a myopic and inconclusive viewpoint.
Take another look at the picture. That's not just "showing all his past achievements", and it's certainly relevant to this month's Power Rank. With the most recent MSL concluded, Flash has won five out of the last nine Starleagues and taken silver in two of the other four. In a more sensationally extrapolating tone, that means he's reached the finals of 7/9 of the most recent Starleagues. He's tied NaDa, considered the "Greatest Of All Time", in medal count with the ABCMart MSL gold.
And you want to ignore that because of the arbitrary cutoff line?
flamewheel you just seem like a faggoty flash fanboy i swear LOL i thought power rank was for performance every month and if so flash hasnt been playing so AMAZINGLY that he deserves the no. 1 spot again. srsly wtf is "Get better, man" TOTAL FAVORITISM IN POWER RANK I SWEAR NO POINT IN READING THIS BULLSHIT.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
Flash won't meet Bisu because he's getting seeded every SL except the recent 2, while Bisu can't pass the prelims + Show Spoiler +
umad?
Is this 4chan or something? Why am I getting "umad?" posts?
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
On July 01 2011 23:20 DarkOptik wrote: Can you please put some more effort into Flash next time? This is pretty dumb: he may be the OSL winner, but that's the only meaningful thing he did ALL of June. His only two other wins are due to the caliber of his opponents, and he lost to every player that's considered A-level (Bogus is arguable). Now that he's going to be taking a break for probably most of July you would think there has to be more rationale for him to be number one. Posting his achievements list is a massive cop-out when he's clearly not the same Flash that won all those OSL/MSLs, and at the moment he will surely lose to Jaedong/Hydra/Bisu in a Bo5.
I love that we just saw Flash completely embarrass Hydra and Zero with preparation, and Bisu get knocked out in prelims, and you're insinuating that Flash would drop a Bo5 to them. How disingenuous.
he aint even mentioning the right league he won ^^
You guys actually think he's playing well right now? Well, that's fine I guess, as that's your opinion. From my perspective, I look at the actual games he's played since his MSL (You're right, I fucked up), and they haven't been all that great to me: he's clearly not the same player he was even four weeks ago. I'm under the impression that Flash with a wrist injury is going to get destroyed, like he currently is in the Proleague.
You think not, but that's fine, it's not a big deal to have a difference in opinion. Starcraft is largely subjective. What I'm bitching about is for a better write-up for why Flash remains number one despite his recent failures in Proleague and injury, rather than an screenshot of his TLPD page that shows all his past achievements which is entirely irrelevant to this month's PR, a joke to his friend 343, and thinly-veiled insults to those who disagree with Flash's #1 ranking.
But I guess "Imad" or "soserious" or something along those lines.
Flash went 6-0 in MSL against Hydra, the former champion, and Zero and then he destroyed Hyun and Bogus with ease despite the pain he felt, and Jaedong himself said that Flash played extremely well in the winners game, and that the spawning position played against Flash.
And as far as I know Flash will keep playing in OSL, MSL and SPL play-offs. So, hurt and all, I think Flash is still scary.
On July 02 2011 03:45 johnisnub wrote: flamewheel you just seem like a faggoty flash fanboy i swear LOL i thought power rank was for performance every month and if so flash hasnt been playing so AMAZINGLY that he deserves the no. 1 spot again. srsly wtf is "Get better, man" TOTAL FAVORITISM IN POWER RANK I SWEAR NO POINT IN READING THIS BULLSHIT.
If Jaedong or Bisu or any other awesome progamer were injured, we would all want them to get better, because they can show like no other the beauty within this wonderful game. It's just delightful to watch them play.
On July 02 2011 03:45 johnisnub wrote: flamewheel you just seem like a faggoty flash fanboy i swear LOL i thought power rank was for performance every month and if so flash hasnt been playing so AMAZINGLY that he deserves the no. 1 spot again. srsly wtf is "Get better, man" TOTAL FAVORITISM IN POWER RANK I SWEAR NO POINT IN READING THIS BULLSHIT.
i dont post really often of TL because i would have so many disagree about the game itself with maybe almost everybody ( do not misunderstand , i love TL more than my life :p ) , and i dont like to get angry , to troll or something . and i dont want to disturbe anyone .
but anyway , i really want to understand something . what power rank is about ?
- the best player RIGHT NOW ? - the best player for the last 3 months ? - the most legendary player ? - the most deserving player ? - the most cute ?
power rank is a really intresting idea by itself , but i usually really dont understand power ranks on TL . your choices seems to be way too subjective . you choose to get bisu down because you dont accept he lose in indiv. leagues . you dont like when monster players keep losing in indiv .leagues ? i can get that . but it must not influence your ranking . i really dont want to be annoying or something , but there is really really objectivity missing here . i know yellow is a legend and what he brought to bw ( im fully in bw since 1999 ) , but i really dont see any reason he would be here . if you want to honor him , create some great article , some great highligh VOD or what you want . there is many possibilities . but your PR is just nonsense . have you ever seen bjorn borg , steffi graff or monica seles on top 10 ATP/WTA just for honnor ? its just nonsense . its about competition here . not about honnor or legend . and kindness , indulgence or honnoring have nothing to do with . i dont pretend to be the pro of PR , but flash 1# is a joke ( i dont care about his injury , thats sports ) , bisu not 1# is an even bigger joke , and yellow on PR is a nonsense .
maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings .
On July 02 2011 03:45 johnisnub wrote: flamewheel you just seem like a faggoty flash fanboy i swear LOL i thought power rank was for performance every month and if so flash hasnt been playing so AMAZINGLY that he deserves the no. 1 spot again. srsly wtf is "Get better, man" TOTAL FAVORITISM IN POWER RANK I SWEAR NO POINT IN READING THIS BULLSHIT.
Hello GG.NoRe
edit: I know this probably isn't ggnore but I like to pretend every completely shitty anti-flash post is him nowadays.
It's amazing for a community with so many intelligent people, there are people like you guys that roam amongst them. Seriously, you anti-Flash peeps need to shut the fuck up and learn.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: you choose to get bisu down because you dont accept he lose in indiv. leagues . you dont like when monster players keep losing in indiv .leagues ? i can get that . but it must not influence your ranking .
Why musn't that influence the ranking? O_o Success in the individual leagues has always been an extremely important factor in the PR.
@T^3: not really agreeing or disagreeing. Since I didn't watch the games I can't comment on them other than to say that I would have been more impressed if he had stomped that line-up 6 months ago when Stork and Kal were hot and Sea was still top 5 TvZ. A number of people are talking about how awesome he played so I'll accept that he is worthy of low PR/CBNC.
@Flamewheel: apparently 30-40% of the people who post in these threads are under the delusion that BW is secretly a code word for SC2 and that OSL and MSL run on monthly schedules like GSL.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...but anyway , i really want to understand something . what power rank is about ?
- the best player RIGHT NOW ? - the best player for the last 3 months ? - the most legendary player ? - the most deserving player ? - the most cute ?
power rank is a really intresting idea by itself , but i usually really dont understand power ranks on TL . your choices seems to be way too subjective ... there is really really objectivity missing here . i know yellow is a legend and what he brought to bw ( im fully in bw since 1999 ) , but i really dont see any reason he would be here ... but your PR is just nonsense.
...maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings.
Look at the scene for a moment. Korean professional BroodWar has three major competitions, the OSL, MSL, and SPL. Suppose three players win each title (for the sake of argument, let's say Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu respectively). Which is the most important?
OSL and MSL are approximately equal accomplishments, although both leagues have their supporters and detractors. But usually - excepting really unusual performances like fantasy beating JD three times in a row in '09 - winning either (or even making finals) is "bigger" than an SPL title, because SPL needs a team to win.
But even that has some disagreement, and if (for example during WL finals) one player does amazing in playoffs while failing in leagues, but both leagues are floating around in the Ro16/Ro8 area, while another player missed playoffs but dominates his opponents there, who's better?
In other words, PR is supposed to be a representative of who the "best" players are at any given point, but unlike ELO, KeSPA rank, or other possible ranks with mathematical justification, it's intentionally not completely objective. It's usually pretty close and at least fairly reasonable (the worst I can think of was Flash getting left off a while back by JWD for no really clear good reason), but two people's ideas are never going to be exactly the same.
As far as past history, every commenter (and most PR writers) disagree about what exactly should be weighted how much. Usually the month's performance gets the most weight, while former (especially recent and/or multiple) starleague winners and finalists get cut the most slack.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...i dont pretend to be the pro of PR , but flash 1# is a joke ( i dont care about his injury , thats sports ) , bisu not 1# is an even bigger joke , and yellow on PR is a nonsense .
Flash #1 is entirely defensible, on the strength of a Starleague win over an S-class player (hey, I like ZerO). In fact, the only other possible options are Bisu and Jaedong (better PR performance/beating Flash reliably), and neither of them have the Starleague accomplishments, at least this month.
As for YellOw - see the notes on "subjective" above.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: you choose to get bisu down because you dont accept he lose in indiv. leagues . you dont like when monster players keep losing in indiv .leagues ? i can get that . but it must not influence your ranking .
Why musn't that influence the ranking? O_o Success in the individual leagues has always been an extremely important factor in the PR.
Because you can't call someone "the hottest player in progaming" if they can't do well in individual leagues. That just does not make sense.
The power rank currently has an image of Flash raping Starcraft Finals the past two years, followed by a short blurb about hating on anyone that disagrees with Flash #1, and that's appropriate for description for this month's PR #1.
If everyone else is okay with that, there's not much for me to say then.
As for flamewheel:
What I said first, "Can you please make a more comprehensive post about why Flash is #1? From my perspective, he hasn't put up significant results after his MSL win, and injury isn't going to make that much better."
What you said:
I can accept criticism, but I don't particularly care for "bitching"
Are. you. serious. How can what I said in any way be construed not as "criticism"? Look, you can disregard anything and everything I said, but you cannot deny that "can you please put more effort into writing Flash for #1" is criticism.
What do you have for PR#1 purely in terms of content? You have an image detailing Flash's dominating past three years, and a one liner about how people shouldn't complain due about recent results.
Give me a fucking break here. Am I so completely wrong for wanting a more comprehensive write-up? How am I "bitching" (by your definition) for asking you to write more more than a line and posting an image with no explanation other than arrows and an emoticon that shows absolutely nothing at all?
Whatever. Apparently I'm a huge fucking asshole who complained, so I should rightly be slapped around by fish.
No, you just stupidly said Hydra and Bisu would beat Flash in a Bo5 when Bisu isn't even in either tournament yet and Flash just got done making Hydra look like an amateur. The only play who could have a reasonable shot at topping Flash on this list is Jaedong for having Flash's number recently, and even he had a really bad start to the month. Flash had a really bad end of the month. It's all relative, Flash's good just happened to coincide winning an MSL that Jaedong didn't.
Bisu will never, ever, ever be #1 after falling out of prelims so don't even bring that one up.
On July 02 2011 04:28 TwoToneTerran wrote: No, you just stupidly said Hydra and Bisu would beat Flash in a Bo5 when Bisu isn't even in either tournament yet and Flash just got done making Hydra look like an amateur. The only play who could have a reasonable shot at topping Flash on this list is Jaedong for having Flash's number recently, and even he had a really bad start to the month. Flash had a really bad end of the month. It's all relative, Flash's good just happened to coincide winning an MSL that Jaedong didn't.
Bisu will never, ever, ever be #1 after falling out of prelims so don't even bring that one up.
Right on, so maybe he could have written that. I think that's all this guy is asking for.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: you choose to get bisu down because you dont accept he lose in indiv. leagues . you dont like when monster players keep losing in indiv .leagues ? i can get that . but it must not influence your ranking .
Why musn't that influence the ranking? O_o Success in the individual leagues has always been an extremely important factor in the PR.
Because you can't call someone "the hottest player in progaming" if they can't do well in individual leagues. That just does not make sense.
And of course all the Bisu fans don't remember when Flash dropped off PR despite a similarly dominating (perhaps a little worse) Proleague record and winning GOM Classic #3...? Because he had "failed" (not passed Ro8) of leagues for a year?
Hmmm... Very good Power Rank this month flamewheel! I'm not completely with Howjja being there but I'm not completely opposed either. Hopefully Bisu can up his game in the upcoming MSL to move up a few slots.
On July 02 2011 05:12 ]343[ wrote: And of course all the Bisu fans don't remember when Flash dropped off PR despite a similarly dominating (perhaps a little worse) Proleague record and winning GOM Classic #3...? Because he had "failed" (not passed Ro8) of leagues for a year?
On July 02 2011 05:12 ]343[ wrote: And of course all the Bisu fans don't remember when Flash dropped off PR despite a similarly dominating (perhaps a little worse) Proleague record and winning GOM Classic #3...? Because he had "failed" (not passed Ro8) of leagues for a year?
worst is that the only game he lost that whole league was a 2 fact from Berserker, lol, but to JWD's defense, there were so many impressive people that month (he gave GOM next to no credit despite flash playing and dominating an MSL semifnalist that was berserker), but whatever that isnt to be discussed.
@ Darkoptik, calm down man youre really damn aggressive and tunnelvisioned, ever figured if everybody else is against your they are total idiots or you need to revise your opinion? If you dont learn that youre not gonna last too long at TL anyways.. And I was making an arguement that flash didnt belong in top 1 undtil I realized that Bisu dropped out of the OSL to hyvaa (who advanced throughout his zvp to the ro16, admittedly), jaedong had had his longest losing streak of his whole career and hydra doesnt feel 1st worthy as he was absolutely demolished by flash in the MSL in the same manner as zero, I for one refuse to believe that they were out of shape for the semi finals and the finals for that matter, knowing how Hydra the previous MSL and Zero allways bringing his best game vs flash, which brings me to the conclusion as many others had; flash were simply invincible at that given time.
For flash's proleague losing streak I think it's half post finals inconsistency which happens to everybody and half that he hasn't been practicing as much as he would have, which made his games sloppy and made him loose. Not to take credit away from his opponents, but it's hard to judge a player's true skill when he isn't properly prepared, and given koreans practice culture this properly just proves how much their practice routine is worth.
I have my one theory of sending out a practiceless flash simply because it's him, but all he could show was a dull blade.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...but anyway , i really want to understand something . what power rank is about ?
- the best player RIGHT NOW ? - the best player for the last 3 months ? - the most legendary player ? - the most deserving player ? - the most cute ?
power rank is a really intresting idea by itself , but i usually really dont understand power ranks on TL . your choices seems to be way too subjective ... there is really really objectivity missing here . i know yellow is a legend and what he brought to bw ( im fully in bw since 1999 ) , but i really dont see any reason he would be here ... but your PR is just nonsense.
...maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings.
Look at the scene for a moment. Korean professional BroodWar has three major competitions, the OSL, MSL, and SPL. Suppose three players win each title (for the sake of argument, let's say Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu respectively). Which is the most important?
OSL and MSL are approximately equal accomplishments, although both leagues have their supporters and detractors. But usually - excepting really unusual performances like fantasy beating JD three times in a row in '09 - winning either (or even making finals) is "bigger" than an SPL title, because SPL needs a team to win.
But even that has some disagreement, and if (for example during WL finals) one player does amazing in playoffs while failing in leagues, but both leagues are floating around in the Ro16/Ro8 area, while another player missed playoffs but dominates his opponents there, who's better?
In other words, PR is supposed to be a representative of who the "best" players are at any given point, but unlike ELO, KeSPA rank, or other possible ranks with mathematical justification, it's intentionally not completely objective. It's usually pretty close and at least fairly reasonable (the worst I can think of was Flash getting left off a while back by JWD for no really clear good reason), but two people's ideas are never going to be exactly the same.
As far as past history, every commenter (and most PR writers) disagree about what exactly should be weighted how much. Usually the month's performance gets the most weight, while former (especially recent and/or multiple) starleague winners and finalists get cut the most slack.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...i dont pretend to be the pro of PR , but flash 1# is a joke ( i dont care about his injury , thats sports ) , bisu not 1# is an even bigger joke , and yellow on PR is a nonsense .
Flash #1 is entirely defensible, on the strength of a Starleague win over an S-class player (hey, I like ZerO). In fact, the only other possible options are Bisu and Jaedong (better PR performance/beating Flash reliably), and neither of them have the Starleague accomplishments, at least this month.
As for YellOw - see the notes on "subjective" above.
ok , that's what i was thinking , we really dont have the same idea in PR .
kespa ranking is about results ELO ranking is same as kespa but in a different way for counting PR should be about " who is the best player right now "
so it should be on pure analysing of games and match . results must be counted too of course but not only .
this month , the best player , the one who reach the highest level of SC during june is clearly bisu . when you watch his games , its an easy choice . SPL is same ( maybe even more ) importance than OSL and MSL . and even ignoring that fact , bisu is clearly dominating the bw scene right now . i dont care of your MSL or OSL titles . there is many sport legends who was known clearly as the best in their time , without winning any major trophees or leagues . for another example , in tennis , jelena jankovic or dinara safina were both one time 1# WTA and known as the cleary best during this time , both of them did not win any chelems tournaments . how many football legends never won world cup or champion's league or even the gold ballon ? bisu can easily be reconized as the best player right now , even when flash win MSL and my mom win OSL . lets remind us he broke a INSANE SPL record , and he is playing an EXTRATERREST SC lvl right now . just watch carefully his game vs hiya , NOBODY is playing this lvl right now . flash played bad this month except MSL finals he played really really well , so he deserve a good rank of course , but not 1# . never . he lost too many terrible games . if he has injury , its sport , its competition . there is no place for indulgence here . when a football or a tennis star is injured , federations have not indulgence for the gold ballon in football or for ATP in tennis . the guy will down in the ranking , no care of injury or sickness or even a knife in the back ( monica seles ) .
MSL and OSL does count for PR for sure , but its not all . bisu deserve EASILY 1# this month , even with his prelim OSL fail . you have to count everything to see who has the highest level of SC during the month . bisu is dominating completly the SPL , its the same as any OSL/MSL title and maybe even more . but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down . but for the moment , nobody can be say better than him . when jaedong will crush the OSL <3 , he will be higher for sure ^^ .
if you want to punish those who lose in ind. leagues and favorising , those who not , then you can even put jangbi over bisu , JD and flash . he fail nowhere , crushed everybody in SPL and in OSL . so he should be 1# right ? but that's not how it works .
1# ( THE best player ) is bisu 2# ( the second best ) can be jaedong , flash hydra or jangbi ( there is discussion here ) 3# same as 2# 4# same as 3# 5# same as 4# 6# movie , soo , zero , best 7# same as 6# 8# same as 7# 9 same as 8# 10# hoejja or any player in CNBC
On July 02 2011 03:45 johnisnub wrote: flamewheel you just seem like a faggoty flash fanboy i swear LOL i thought power rank was for performance every month and if so flash hasnt been playing so AMAZINGLY that he deserves the no. 1 spot again. srsly wtf is "Get better, man" TOTAL FAVORITISM IN POWER RANK I SWEAR NO POINT IN READING THIS BULLSHIT.
Hello GG.NoRe
edit: I know this probably isn't ggnore but I like to pretend every completely shitty anti-flash post is him nowadays.
That means my anti-Flash posts are only partially shitty!
Flamewheel didn't really write much in a month where things aren't clear-cut(which he should do at some point this month), though the rankings themselves aren't too bad.
You will find that most people disagree with your view of the PR.
Bisu is NOT dominating the BW scene when he gets knocked out in the prelims + hasn't been close to any Starleague accomplishments since a couple of years back.
Someone is bitching about the justification for placement? I'm pretty sure I've seen Flamewheel criticized for writing too much before. While I like a lengthy write up, it is not required.
I actually do agree that he wrote too little about Flash, but that the placement in itself is incorrect is something I just won't agree with this month.
Damn good job flamewheel, the list is almost exactly the same as my own (ignoring yellow and moving everyone below up one) but I couldn't decide on #10, and honoring yellow with #2 was a fine solution.
Also, I can't believe there are actually people arguing against Flash being #1, he won the MSL going 6-0 vs two of the top three zergs around, and he fucking tied Nada (the G.O.A.T.) in gold medals. That gets #1 for the month it happens no doubt. The picture Flamewheel used was basically all that was needed. I'm not a fan of Flash, but arguing he shouldn't be #1 this month is absurd
Who else could be #1 beside Flash for this month? Jaedong? He didn't get to MSL finals and slumped hard at the beggining of the month, and I'm still unsure of his non ZvT matchups. JD is the only person I could see being above Flash at all, but even JD is a stretch for this month Hydra? Flash demolished him 3-0, hard for me to put him above Flash ZerO? See above Bisu?-Hasn't done shit in an individual league for a long time and couldn't even make ODT, no way he could be #1. Sorry, Bisu has done phenomenally well in proleague but I have huge huge doubts on his BoX ability. YellOw?-Can't be higher than #2
All of these people with doubts on Bisu's BOX ability... Were any of you around when he was winning everything -_-;;
Bisu's got some weird psychological issues. He's hanging around for years, unlike the other bonjwas who fell off completely much more quickly. I think it's because his mechanics are godly, and starcraft finally reached the point that people with godly mechanics aren't being replaced by better trained kids with even godlier mechanics. Something close to physical limits are finally being reached by people like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. Some day if he gets his head in the right place, a little training time and a little luck, I have no doubt he can do well again.
On July 02 2011 06:36 Muirhead wrote: All of these people with doubts on Bisu's BOX ability... Were any of you around when he was winning everything -_-;;
Bisu's got some weird psychological issues. He's hanging around for years, unlike the other bonjwas who fell off completely much more quickly. I think it's because his mechanics are godly, and starcraft finally reached the point that people with godly mechanics aren't being replaced by better trained kids with even godlier mechanics. Something close to physical limits are finally being reached by people like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. Some day if he gets his head in the right place, a little training time and a little luck, I have no doubt he can do well again.
He must've lost his mojo or else I am sure he would make a ro4 (atleast). He just doesnt play good in individual leagues
On July 02 2011 06:26 GolemMadness wrote: If you're the best player on the planet, you don't fail to make it past the RO16 for two years or however long it's been. You say this yourself:
"but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down ."
He's been failing in individual leagues for years, but it suddenly only counts if he loses in the next one? What?
Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean.
it not "suddenly " counts if he lose the next one . he has done some exceptional PL games , and that's count . so for this month , he should be 1# . but he has to make another exceptional july PL month to stay 1# , otherwise he fall down . but for june , he is 1# . this is maybe the second time for 2 years that bisu should be 1# in PR because of his leagues fails . but this month is very special for him , thats all im saying .
sorry for the "alien" word ^^ but i like it :p .
but anyway , i realize once again we really dont have the same point of view for PR . thats why i dont post on TL , i know no one will agree with me ^^ . there is nobody who will think that jangbi deserve maybe to be higher than flash and JD ( as the biggest fan of JD on earth , dont forget it ) . jangbi reach a same or better level of SC than flash and jaedong for me this month . bisu reach higher . im a visionary , im a complete fool . you choose =) ( joke ) .
This is BS, Bisu should be Higher and have you seen the way jangbi has been playing? How come he is not #1? how much crack was smoked when you made this?
I knew I was going to get warned for this post but I still went with it, but because we want content, I will now contribute some thoughts:
I will concede that Flash did manage to win a star league this past month, but then he went on a slump and has been playing relatively mediocre since. Jaedong ,yes he is on a game winning streak, but since when does play at the beginning of the month not count towards the power rank for that month? So we are just ignoring some terrible play because he has been playing well since? Remember we are talking about a body of work here over the ENTIRE month, and if you look at the entire body of work Jangbi should most likely be first, he played more games, and won more of them than anyone else isn't that what we define as on a roll? He is the most dangerous player right now and thus should be given the respect he deserves. Nuff Said
On July 02 2011 06:26 GolemMadness wrote: If you're the best player on the planet, you don't fail to make it past the RO16 for two years or however long it's been. You say this yourself:
"but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down ."
He's been failing in individual leagues for years, but it suddenly only counts if he loses in the next one? What?
Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean.
it not "suddenly " counts if he lose the next one . he has done some exceptional PL games , and that's count . so for this month , he should be 1# . but he has to make another exceptional july PL month to stay 1# , otherwise he fall down . but for june , he is 1# . this is maybe the second time for 2 years that bisu should be 1# in PR because of his leagues fails . but this month is very special for him , thats all im saying .
sorry for the "alien" word ^^ but i like it :p .
but anyway , i realize once again we really dont have the same point of view for PR . thats why i dont post on TL , i know no one will agree with me ^^ . there is nobody who will think that jangbi deserve maybe to be higher than flash and JD ( as the biggest fan of JD on earth , dont forget it ) . jangbi reach a same or better level of SC than flash and jaedong for me this month . bisu reach higher . im a visionary , im a complete fool . you choose =) ( joke ) .
Looking at some of your older posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you're GG.Nore. Every single one I looked at was hating on Flash and saying how much better Jaedong and Bisu are.
This is the stupidest level of PR crying have ever seen in my life. The last 4 pages are a horrible trainwreck and I can't believe I read every comment. I feel so dirty
Bisu isn't #1 for essentially the same reason Sea rarely makes the PR and almost never cracks the top 5. "But VGhost," you say, "Bisu is consistently on the PR and almost as consistently on the top five, that's a faulty analogy."
Three things that make it work.
First, when you only dominate half the scene, it just doesn't really count as dominance. This is what Sea's always struggled with and what Bisu is facing now, and is the heart of my comparison. Who's going to be #1 in tennis, the player winning half the titles and randomly losing to underdogs early in tournaments, or the player winning the other half of the tournaments and placing #2 the rest of the time?
Second, Bisu is much much better than Sea right now. Bisu gets onto the PR, in a high spot, regularly just because he is so very, very good when he is good, which he almost always is.
Third, the PR almost always, regardless of writer, grants a lot more leeway to players with titles than players without. Bisu holds a Golden Badge, even if he won it years ago when everybody was adjusting to his then-"new" playstyle. So in that way it is a faulty analogy, because Bisu has had success Sea hasn't.
tl;dr: Come on Bisu win another Starleague already so you don't keep looking like a one-dimensional player. At least make a semi-final or something.
On July 02 2011 06:26 GolemMadness wrote: If you're the best player on the planet, you don't fail to make it past the RO16 for two years or however long it's been. You say this yourself:
"but if he keep losing in ind. leagues , he will down for sure . if he lose in MSL for example , he will fall down ."
He's been failing in individual leagues for years, but it suddenly only counts if he loses in the next one? What?
Incidentally, "EXTRATERREST" isn't a word. No idea what that's supposed to mean.
it not "suddenly " counts if he lose the next one . he has done some exceptional PL games , and that's count . so for this month , he should be 1# . but he has to make another exceptional july PL month to stay 1# , otherwise he fall down . but for june , he is 1# . this is maybe the second time for 2 years that bisu should be 1# in PR because of his leagues fails . but this month is very special for him , thats all im saying .
sorry for the "alien" word ^^ but i like it :p .
but anyway , i realize once again we really dont have the same point of view for PR . thats why i dont post on TL , i know no one will agree with me ^^ . there is nobody who will think that jangbi deserve maybe to be higher than flash and JD ( as the biggest fan of JD on earth , dont forget it ) . jangbi reach a same or better level of SC than flash and jaedong for me this month . bisu reach higher . im a visionary , im a complete fool . you choose =) ( joke ) .
Looking at some of your older posts, I wouldn't be surprised if you're GG.Nore. Every single one I looked at was hating on Flash and saying how much better Jaedong and Bisu are.
mm sorry im not . i almost never post on TL , i said . i never act like the flash haters of TL . im not a child . its true that i hate flash , but i never disagree with his supremacy . i just think he is really too overrated compare to some others S class , especially jaedong . but i know he is the best .
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...but anyway , i really want to understand something . what power rank is about ?
- the best player RIGHT NOW ? - the best player for the last 3 months ? - the most legendary player ? - the most deserving player ? - the most cute ?
power rank is a really intresting idea by itself , but i usually really dont understand power ranks on TL . your choices seems to be way too subjective ... there is really really objectivity missing here . i know yellow is a legend and what he brought to bw ( im fully in bw since 1999 ) , but i really dont see any reason he would be here ... but your PR is just nonsense.
...maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings.
Look at the scene for a moment. Korean professional BroodWar has three major competitions, the OSL, MSL, and SPL. Suppose three players win each title (for the sake of argument, let's say Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu respectively). Which is the most important?
OSL and MSL are approximately equal accomplishments, although both leagues have their supporters and detractors. But usually - excepting really unusual performances like fantasy beating JD three times in a row in '09 - winning either (or even making finals) is "bigger" than an SPL title, because SPL needs a team to win.
But even that has some disagreement, and if (for example during WL finals) one player does amazing in playoffs while failing in leagues, but both leagues are floating around in the Ro16/Ro8 area, while another player missed playoffs but dominates his opponents there, who's better?
In other words, PR is supposed to be a representative of who the "best" players are at any given point, but unlike ELO, KeSPA rank, or other possible ranks with mathematical justification, it's intentionally not completely objective. It's usually pretty close and at least fairly reasonable (the worst I can think of was Flash getting left off a while back by JWD for no really clear good reason), but two people's ideas are never going to be exactly the same.
As far as past history, every commenter (and most PR writers) disagree about what exactly should be weighted how much. Usually the month's performance gets the most weight, while former (especially recent and/or multiple) starleague winners and finalists get cut the most slack.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...i dont pretend to be the pro of PR , but flash 1# is a joke ( i dont care about his injury , thats sports ) , bisu not 1# is an even bigger joke , and yellow on PR is a nonsense .
Flash #1 is entirely defensible, on the strength of a Starleague win over an S-class player (hey, I like ZerO). In fact, the only other possible options are Bisu and Jaedong (better PR performance/beating Flash reliably), and neither of them have the Starleague accomplishments, at least this month.
As for YellOw - see the notes on "subjective" above.
ok , that's what i was thinking , we really dont have the same idea in PR .
Stop right here. PR isn't here to satisfy your particular desires for what PR should be. PR is what it is. Each writer has some control over exactly how he writes it, but they all follow the same precedent set by previous writers.
League results matter. They always have. They always will. Because you can't call someone "hot" or "powerful" (which is what this rank is all about) if they aren't performing in individual leagues. In a month when Bisu drops from OSL, he is going to be penalized. All the players listed above Bisu (not counting Yellow, who doesn't really count) have a semifinal result or better from the league that ended this month AND qualified for OSL (Ro16) AND are their team's top PL performer.
Ergo they are hotter.
Bisu's #4 rank (again, not counting Yellow) rather than a #1 or #2 result is due to his own failures. There is no conspiracy. We are not going to rape the PR like you want us to just to make Bisu stand out.
For Jaedong one actually can make a case, but the fact remains that while JD was stronger at the end of the month, the more important results occurred at the end of last month/beginning of this one. Which is exactly when Jaedong chose to drop the ball. Ergo Flash is #1 when JD is #2.
the one who reach the highest level of SC during june is clearly bisu
At first I was thought, lol, - nice irony here, but it seems like you were serious about it. You understanding of high level play is just totally wrong and bisued. Winning the champion title - is high level play, no doubt (especially in 3-0 fashion). Major fail in prelims (in Bo3, vs weak opponent, in Bisu's best MU) - barely can't be called a satisfactory result. So, yes PR totally respects the idea of high level play goes top.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...but anyway , i really want to understand something . what power rank is about ?
- the best player RIGHT NOW ? - the best player for the last 3 months ? - the most legendary player ? - the most deserving player ? - the most cute ?
power rank is a really intresting idea by itself , but i usually really dont understand power ranks on TL . your choices seems to be way too subjective ... there is really really objectivity missing here . i know yellow is a legend and what he brought to bw ( im fully in bw since 1999 ) , but i really dont see any reason he would be here ... but your PR is just nonsense.
...maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings.
Look at the scene for a moment. Korean professional BroodWar has three major competitions, the OSL, MSL, and SPL. Suppose three players win each title (for the sake of argument, let's say Flash, Jaedong, and Bisu respectively). Which is the most important?
OSL and MSL are approximately equal accomplishments, although both leagues have their supporters and detractors. But usually - excepting really unusual performances like fantasy beating JD three times in a row in '09 - winning either (or even making finals) is "bigger" than an SPL title, because SPL needs a team to win.
But even that has some disagreement, and if (for example during WL finals) one player does amazing in playoffs while failing in leagues, but both leagues are floating around in the Ro16/Ro8 area, while another player missed playoffs but dominates his opponents there, who's better?
In other words, PR is supposed to be a representative of who the "best" players are at any given point, but unlike ELO, KeSPA rank, or other possible ranks with mathematical justification, it's intentionally not completely objective. It's usually pretty close and at least fairly reasonable (the worst I can think of was Flash getting left off a while back by JWD for no really clear good reason), but two people's ideas are never going to be exactly the same.
As far as past history, every commenter (and most PR writers) disagree about what exactly should be weighted how much. Usually the month's performance gets the most weight, while former (especially recent and/or multiple) starleague winners and finalists get cut the most slack.
On July 02 2011 03:57 vaMpYr wrote: ...i dont pretend to be the pro of PR , but flash 1# is a joke ( i dont care about his injury , thats sports ) , bisu not 1# is an even bigger joke , and yellow on PR is a nonsense .
Flash #1 is entirely defensible, on the strength of a Starleague win over an S-class player (hey, I like ZerO). In fact, the only other possible options are Bisu and Jaedong (better PR performance/beating Flash reliably), and neither of them have the Starleague accomplishments, at least this month.
As for YellOw - see the notes on "subjective" above.
ok , that's what i was thinking , we really dont have the same idea in PR .
Stop right here. PR isn't here to satisfy your particular desires for what PR should be. PR is what it is. Each writer has some control over exactly how he writes it, but they all follow the same precedent set by previous writers.
League results matter. They always have. They always will. Because you can't call someone "hot" or "powerful" (which is what this rank is all about) if they aren't performing in individual leagues. In a month when Bisu drops from OSL, he is going to be penalized. All the players listed above Bisu (not counting Yellow, who doesn't really count) have a semifinal result or better from the league that ended this month AND qualified for OSL (Ro16) AND are their team's top PL performer.
Ergo they are hotter.
Bisu's #4 rank (again, not counting Yellow) rather than a #1 or #2 result is due to his own failures. There is no conspiracy. We are not going to rape the PR like you want us to just to make Bisu stand out.
For Jaedong one actually can make a case, but the fact remains that while JD was stronger at the end of the month, the more important results occurred at the end of last month/beginning of this one. Which is exactly when Jaedong chose to drop the ball. Ergo Flash is #1 when JD is #2.
Case closed.
calm down . i love you . i never said leagues does not matter . they do . and i do . i think you misinterpret my ideas . i just said that a hudge PL dominance and exceptional monster games can make up for an MSL/OSL title . and i never wanted to see jaedong 1# this month . read my posts slower please .
and im not here to ask people to satisfy my desire to what PR should be in my opinion . im here to expose my point of view and discuss about PR . nothing more .
the one who reach the highest level of SC during june is clearly bisu
At first I was thought, lol, - nice irony here, but it seems like you were serious about it. You understanding of high level play is just totally wrong and bisued. Winning the champion title - is high level play, no doubt (especially in 3-0 fashion). Major fail in prelims (in Bo3, vs weak opponent, in Bisu's best MU) - barely can't be called a satisfactory result. So, yes PR totally respects the idea of high level play goes top.
no , in your idea , PR respects results , nothing more .
If it were results only Flash would not be #1 with his losing streak. Get over it man, Bisu underperformed three of his peers for the month by failing in the prelims while all three of them are currently 2 rounds higher than Bisu in the OSL. Not to mention Flash won the MSL in convincing fashion. Bisu has succeeded in convincing the world that he will never make another Ro8 in his life.
On July 02 2011 06:36 Muirhead wrote: All of these people with doubts on Bisu's BOX ability... Were any of you around when he was winning everything -_-;;
Bisu's got some weird psychological issues. He's hanging around for years, unlike the other bonjwas who fell off completely much more quickly. I think it's because his mechanics are godly, and starcraft finally reached the point that people with godly mechanics aren't being replaced by better trained kids with even godlier mechanics. Something close to physical limits are finally being reached by people like Bisu/Jaedong/Flash. Some day if he gets his head in the right place, a little training time and a little luck, I have no doubt he can do well again.
The main problem with Bisu is that he "loses" interests in the game every now and then. Unless he can overcome this, he'll just be another Sea.
I love reading the power ranks and this month was no exception The bit about Yellow almost brought a tear to my eye and I wish him the best, farewell Storm Zerg you will always have a place in my heart <3 Now that's some nerdlove right there
How can Bisu honestly be #5. I've never been more disappointed with a power ranking. #1 and #2 are fine. But if we are basing rank on achievements(Flash), then clearly Bisu achieving #1 elo and #1 in PL wins all time in the same month clearly deserves to be in the top 3. It's honestly achievement unlocked season for Bisu. His protoss squad is about to break 100 protoss wins in a season too. If he wins this PL championship I fully expect him to be at the top.
Addressing SL: Clearly Bisu should be doing better in the individuals. But he did have his runs when he won 3 msl's. Something not many have accomplished. We all have to understand Bisu can't be based on the SL records any more. Its not something he wins. Sadly. But he has accomplished a lot this season. Taking all of his achievements this season combined. He's due to be at the top.
I'm not entirely comfortable with Hydra #4. Possibly because I'm not a fan, I've never been particularly impressed with his play, even though he's extremely good. I find it difficult to see how he's been playing better than ZerO, never mind Bisu - but oddly enough I think this is a case where Hydra benefited from results over "strength of play" (which is at least partly subjective).
Re. Horang2. TigerToss has had several solid months in a row, but too many people just jumped over him at the end of the month, together with a couple bad losses. He's only 5-2 on the month in Proleague, with losses to Jangbi (who demolished him) and HoeJJa (which I didn't see). His only marginally impressive win is over Killer, while he also dropped out of the OSL prelims in PvP, historically far and away his best matchup.
HoeJJa (#10) is the only one who looks less impressive on paper - but right now (odd as it sounds) Horang2 is way less important to his team, so environment helps HoeJJa out there.
Still, CNBC wouldn't have been a bad call, but you can't always give CNBC to every 1-league player who had a good Proleague month. (And I say all this as a huge Horang2 fan - go back two months and half my PR posts were complaining about leaving him off.)
Oh this thread is hilarious. Hilariously bad, but hilarious.
What I find ironic is that due to PR-writers always continuously giving Bisu "the benefit of the doubt" has reached this point. Flash was always in the middle somewhere when he kept failing in the SLs. Sea, Leta, effort(pre-OSL win), and many other PL monsters sometimes don't even get ranked when the SLs roll around.
But since Bisu always hang around the top 5 regardless of him getting beat up in the prelims or the Ro32s(since MSL is REALLY hard to go back to the prelims), him being a little "extra good in the PL" makes him deserve #1 or #2. This logic is actually consistent with where Bisu has generally placed in the past.
So since Bisu's always gotten more "benefit of the doubt" than others, why stop now? Why not use his 3 MSL wins and pretend he's #1 simply because he's in this year's MST too? If anything, not putting Bisu #1 or #2 makes it seem like you're not treating him special.
But Bisu is special. Have you taken a look at him? His looks alone is worth 2 spots on the PR. Add 2 more spots for being the only player who knows PvZ, and he's obviously #1.
On July 02 2011 11:12 BisuDagger wrote: How can Bisu honestly be #5. I've never been more disappointed with a power ranking. #1 and #2 are fine. But if we are basing rank on achievements(Flash), then clearly Bisu achieving #1 elo and #1 in PL wins all time in the same month clearly deserves to be in the top 3. It's honestly achievement unlocked season for Bisu. His protoss squad is about to break 100 protoss wins in a season too. If he wins this PL championship I fully expect him to be at the top.
Addressing SL: Clearly Bisu should be doing better in the individuals. But he did have his runs when he won 3 msl's. Something not many have accomplished. We all have to understand Bisu can't be based on the SL records any more. Its not something he wins. Sadly. But he has accomplished a lot this season. Taking all of his achievements this season combined. He's due to be at the top.
I still think Jeadong beating Flash twice, Fantasy, Calm, Bogus, Sea and going 8-3 is worthly of #1. When you beat the PR #1 twice in the same month while also beating a large assortment of S classes should be #1.
Only thing Flash did this month was beat ZerO and Hydra, in 3-0 Bo5s, which is still very good, just not sure if it's enough in my mind.
So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I didn't say I agreed with Flash's position. However, Flash is a special case since he was able to win the MSL despite an injury and yeah I agree that he failed in PL but he didn't get destroyed iirc.
But I still don't see Bisu over Flash. I think the number 1 could have been JD or even Jangbi because as someone said, it's about recent performances and Jangbi has been a monster being good in BOTH PL and SL.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
On July 02 2011 13:51 Womwomwom wrote: While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long.
It's been a tick:
Batoo OSL: Semifinals (Lost to Fantasy 0 - 3) Bacchus OSL: Ro16 (Lost to go.go, ZerO 1 - 2) EVER OSL: Ro36 (Lost to Shine 1 - 2) Korean Air OSL S1: Ro36 (Lost to go.go 1 - 2) Korean Air OSL S2: Ro16 (Lost to Leta, EffOrt 1 - 2) 2010 Bacchus OSL: Ro36 (Lost to Shine 0 - 2) ? OSL: Lost in Prelims
Lost Saga MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Savior, ZerO) Avalon MSL: Ro8 (Lost to Iris 2 - 3) Nate MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Guemchi, Bogus) Hana Daetoo MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Shuttle, Movie) Bigfile MSL: Ro16 (Lost to Sea 0 - 2) PDPop MSL: Ro16 (Lost to Stork 0 - 2) ABCMart MSL: Ro32 (Lost to Flash twice)
To be fair, he did win the second season of the GOM Classic and the WCG Korea in 2009. But in the last two-and-a-half years - basically since his semifinals loss to Fantasy - he hasn't really made any noise in the individual leagues.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
Unless I am mistaken Bisu has not made it past the Ro16 of either MSL or OSL since August of 2009 when he lost to Iris in the Avalon MSL (the one Calm won). He also won WCG Korea in August 2090 Since then I think he has only made it past group stages twice (losing in the Ro16 to Sea and Stork in the Bigfile MSL and PDPop MSL respectively). So I don't think Bisu has done anything significant in an individual league for almost two years now(I consider Ro8 to be the very bottom of what can be considered significant, but Ro4 and Finals are of course far more significant).
On the other Hand all three of the people above Bisu (ignoring Yellow) made the top 4 in the last MSL (Flash winning the MSL), and Hydra won the prior MSL that Jaedong also got top4 in (and that is completely ignoring any history before that in which JD and Flash did phenomenally in individual leagues through all of 2010). So all three of them blow Bisu out of the water when it comes to individual leagues.
Now let's look at the team league performance (note I started at the beggining of September 2010 because I thought that was a good spot to include the entire PL season so far) Bisu64-16 80% Flash53-16 76.81% Jaedong51-23 68.92% Hydra41-23 64.06% So as we can see, Bisu has certainly been the best PL player, but Jaedong Flash and Hydra have all be doing damn good the entire proleague season, with both Jaedong and Flash breaking 50 wins, and Hydra breaking 40. So it is essentially Bisu-The best PL player, shit in individual leagues and has been doing poorly in individual leagues for a long time. Flash-Phenomenal PL, won an individual league to tie his record with Nada's. Has done slightly less well in PL this month, but has done well in PL the whole season Jaedong-Phenomenal PL, got dual Ro4 in two succesive individual leagues Hydra-Damn good PL performance, got Ro4 this MSL and won the last MSL
So people are saying that Bisu deserves to be higher than people who have been doing well in individual leagues while also doing great in proleague while he dominates proleague (also I would like to point out that good PL results are more impresive if a player is in an individual league because they have to prepare for PL and their individual league, while someone like Bisu only has to worry obout PL.
Now Bisu's PL performance is SOOOOOOO good that I am still willing to put him in top 5, even above people with far better individual league results, but he needs to show some individual league results to move up beyond where he is (and I question even putting him above Zero, but Zero seems inconstant enough to me to lower his ranking a bit).
I just truely believe skt winning pl + a Bisu when(possibly ace win too) makes him deserving of the #1 spot next month to encompass his pl achievements. But when he wins the msl I'll be back to preach more to the choir I do understand everyone's arguments and they are valid until I realize Bisu is just that awesome.
Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
On July 02 2011 16:11 baubo wrote: Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
Even assuming that's true... he still hasn't done anything this past month. that's why no CBNC.
I would normally bitch about Hydra being above Bisu due to how Bisu would thrash him, but I should tell that to hyvaa. I am just thankful you didn't put ZerO ahead of him, considering ZerO is like 13-7 in his past 20, with about half of those losses being to Flash, and wins over Jaedong and Fantasy.
I enjoyed the Yellow @ #2, and dislike people taking that too seriously. Bisu being at #4 is his own damn fault. I wish the guy had come close to winning a starleague in the last 2 and a half years.
On July 02 2011 16:11 baubo wrote: Btw, disappointed to not see Stork in CNBC. You need to check the schedule, flamewheel. It's SL season again and Stork always seem to get his groove back at this time. Every season, Stork plays badly in the PL, then SL season rolls around, he'll put away his anime/WOW/cellphone game/whatever and will actually start to practice. Then he'd proceed to advance further than every other toss but still ultimately fail somewhere.
In terms of consistent SL performance, I would Stork #3 behind Jaedong and Flash. The guy never seem to fail to move up around this time.
Even assuming that's true... he still hasn't done anything this past month. that's why no CBNC.
Yeah... that came out a little more serious than what I had in mind. It was really a play on "close but no cigar", as in Stork is "close but one month too early" for the rank.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
Unless I am mistaken Bisu has not made it past the Ro16 of either MSL or OSL since August of 2009 when he lost to Iris in the Avalon MSL (the one Calm won). He also won WCG Korea in August 2090 Since then I think he has only made it past group stages twice (losing in the Ro16 to Sea and Stork in the Bigfile MSL and PDPop MSL respectively). So I don't think Bisu has done anything significant in an individual league for almost two years now(I consider Ro8 to be the very bottom of what can be considered significant, but Ro4 and Finals are of course far more significant).
On the other Hand all three of the people above Bisu (ignoring Yellow) made the top 4 in the last MSL (Flash winning the MSL), and Hydra won the prior MSL that Jaedong also got top4 in (and that is completely ignoring any history before that in which JD and Flash did phenomenally in individual leagues through all of 2010). So all three of them blow Bisu out of the water when it comes to individual leagues.
Now let's look at the team league performance (note I started at the beggining of September 2010 because I thought that was a good spot to include the entire PL season so far) Bisu64-16 80% Flash53-16 76.81% Jaedong51-23 68.92% Hydra41-23 64.06% So as we can see, Bisu has certainly been the best PL player, but Jaedong Flash and Hydra have all be doing damn good the entire proleague season, with both Jaedong and Flash breaking 50 wins, and Hydra breaking 40. So it is essentially Bisu-The best PL player, shit in individual leagues and has been doing poorly in individual leagues for a long time. Flash-Phenomenal PL, won an individual league to tie his record with Nada's. Has done slightly less well in PL this month, but has done well in PL the whole season Jaedong-Phenomenal PL, got dual Ro4 in two succesive individual leagues Hydra-Damn good PL performance, got Ro4 this MSL and won the last MSL
So people are saying that Bisu deserves to be higher than people who have been doing well in individual leagues while also doing great in proleague while he dominates proleague (also I would like to point out that good PL results are more impresive if a player is in an individual league because they have to prepare for PL and their individual league, while someone like Bisu only has to worry obout PL.
Now Bisu's PL performance is SOOOOOOO good that I am still willing to put him in top 5, even above people with far better individual league results, but he needs to show some individual league results to move up beyond where he is (and I question even putting him above Zero, but Zero seems inconstant enough to me to lower his ranking a bit).
proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
and more important , SPL is a different competition , sometimes harder . you never know who you'll get to play , maybe a total newcomer . someone the team in front of you make the things perfectly harder for you , with the perfect player against you of the perfect map for him . competition is here more complicated .
bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
How can a teamleague be more worth for the individual than an individual league?! No one argues about the overall importance of proleague here, yet the place to present yourself as a player against a stronger-growing competition is the individual league.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote:bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
Ahahahah, ahahahahahaahahahasdlkfhsdklfalfh
Oh my god, this is just so wrong. Holy crap.
Okay, you know what, even though I think you're absolutely bonkers for saying this, I will argue from your standpoint. Bisu has totally accomplished 2 titles worth of work by going 64-16 in proleague.
Bisu has acrued all of that since october of 2010. Now, you're streching pretty far back to give Bisu enough credit to be #1 on this rank. If you want to reach 8+ months back, I wonder what flash has? Oh, wow, he has an actual MSL! And 1 more month back and he has 2 MSLs and an OSL! Well, that's only 1 more title more than Bisu by your standards, but Bisu's still totally ahead of Flash, right?
Oh, wait, no, Flash has gone 52-16 in PL. While this isn't nearly as good as what Bisu has done, flash also has three actual titles! I wonder how much 52-16 is worth? I mean, flash is 12 wins behind Bisu, how much is 12 wins worth? 1/3rd a title? So Flash has 1 2/3rds an OSL/MSL in PL, and, you know, three actual OSL/MSLs.
During Bisu's PL streak, Flash has won as many titles as Bisu has in his whole career. Give me a break, if you want to bring up his damn overall PL stats for the past 8 months.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote:bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
Ahahahah, ahahahahahaahahahasdlkfhsdklfalfh
Oh my god, this is just so wrong. Holy crap.
Okay, you know what, even though I think you're absolutely bonkers for saying this, I will argue from your standpoint. Bisu has totally accomplished 2 titles worth of work by going 64-16 in proleague.
Bisu has acrued all of that since october of 2010. Now, you're streching pretty far back to give Bisu enough credit to be #1 on this rank. If you want to reach 8+ months back, I wonder what flash has? Oh, wow, he has an actual MSL! And 1 more month back and he has 2 MSLs and an OSL! Well, that's only 1 more title more than Bisu by your standards, but Bisu's still totally ahead of Flash, right?
Oh, wait, no, Flash has gone 52-16 in PL. While this isn't nearly as good as what Bisu has done, flash also has three actual titles! I wonder how much 52-16 is worth? I mean, flash is 12 wins behind Bisu, how much is 12 wins worth? 1/3rd a title? So Flash has 1 2/3rds an OSL/MSL in PL, and, you know, three actual OSL/MSLs.
During Bisu's PL streak, Flash has won as many titles as Bisu has in his whole career. Give me a break, if you want to bring up his damn overall PL stats for the past 8 months.
no need to arouse yourself . flash is clearly better than bisu on the long term . i am talking only about june . in june bisu was better than flash , thats a fact .
You weren't talking about only june. You brought up his proleague record amassed over 8 months. In June, Flash won the MSL and advanced to the OSL, Bisu beat Hiya/Baby as his best competition while dropping out of OSL. There's absolutely, positively, no excuse for Bisu to even be above Jaedong, much less Flash.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote:bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
Ahahahah, ahahahahahaahahahasdlkfhsdklfalfh
Oh my god, this is just so wrong. Holy crap.
Okay, you know what, even though I think you're absolutely bonkers for saying this, I will argue from your standpoint. Bisu has totally accomplished 2 titles worth of work by going 64-16 in proleague.
Bisu has acrued all of that since october of 2010. Now, you're streching pretty far back to give Bisu enough credit to be #1 on this rank. If you want to reach 8+ months back, I wonder what flash has? Oh, wow, he has an actual MSL! And 1 more month back and he has 2 MSLs and an OSL! Well, that's only 1 more title more than Bisu by your standards, but Bisu's still totally ahead of Flash, right?
Oh, wait, no, Flash has gone 52-16 in PL. While this isn't nearly as good as what Bisu has done, flash also has three actual titles! I wonder how much 52-16 is worth? I mean, flash is 12 wins behind Bisu, how much is 12 wins worth? 1/3rd a title? So Flash has 1 2/3rds an OSL/MSL in PL, and, you know, three actual OSL/MSLs.
During Bisu's PL streak, Flash has won as many titles as Bisu has in his whole career. Give me a break, if you want to bring up his damn overall PL stats for the past 8 months.
no need to arouse yourself . flash is clearly better than bisu on the long term . i am talking only about june . in june bisu was better than flash , thats a fact .
If you only are talking about June, let's talk about June. Bisu is 10-3 in all competitions in June, that is better than Flash. Jangbi is 21-2 in all competition in June, that is better than Bisu. That is also a fact.
But normally, people look beyond the immediate history when making these rankings, which is why Bisu is above Jangbi, and why Flash is over Bisu.
On July 02 2011 13:36 Essbee wrote: So many blind fanboyism. PL and SL counts whether you want it or not. I know it may be hard for some fans but seriously, it's just a rank and I personally think it is justified for Bisu or whoever.
And as VGhost said somewhere, if you dominate only half of the scene, you don't deserve to be at the top. Even if you love a progamer that would be ready to marry it, you still have to remain realistic towards their performances.
Let's just hope Bisu can get better in individual leagues (and protosses in general for that matter). That's it.
Cheers.
Let's look at the #1, 1-5 in PL, 8-1 in SL if that isn't dominating half the scene I don't know what is.
I think the point is that Flash's troubles in proleague have only been very recent and for the previous god knows how many rounds, he's been nearly as good as Bisu and winning an absurd number of games (isn't he #2 in PL wins right now? if he isn't, he's definitely #3).
While Bisu hasn't achieved anything in any individual league since god knows how long. While Flash might drop out once to guys like Hyuk and Classic, Bisu has been dropping out to go.go, Shine, Hyvaa, Hero, etc since 2009 (?).
Unless I am mistaken Bisu has not made it past the Ro16 of either MSL or OSL since August of 2009 when he lost to Iris in the Avalon MSL (the one Calm won). He also won WCG Korea in August 2090 Since then I think he has only made it past group stages twice (losing in the Ro16 to Sea and Stork in the Bigfile MSL and PDPop MSL respectively). So I don't think Bisu has done anything significant in an individual league for almost two years now(I consider Ro8 to be the very bottom of what can be considered significant, but Ro4 and Finals are of course far more significant).
On the other Hand all three of the people above Bisu (ignoring Yellow) made the top 4 in the last MSL (Flash winning the MSL), and Hydra won the prior MSL that Jaedong also got top4 in (and that is completely ignoring any history before that in which JD and Flash did phenomenally in individual leagues through all of 2010). So all three of them blow Bisu out of the water when it comes to individual leagues.
Now let's look at the team league performance (note I started at the beggining of September 2010 because I thought that was a good spot to include the entire PL season so far) Bisu64-16 80% Flash53-16 76.81% Jaedong51-23 68.92% Hydra41-23 64.06% So as we can see, Bisu has certainly been the best PL player, but Jaedong Flash and Hydra have all be doing damn good the entire proleague season, with both Jaedong and Flash breaking 50 wins, and Hydra breaking 40. So it is essentially Bisu-The best PL player, shit in individual leagues and has been doing poorly in individual leagues for a long time. Flash-Phenomenal PL, won an individual league to tie his record with Nada's. Has done slightly less well in PL this month, but has done well in PL the whole season Jaedong-Phenomenal PL, got dual Ro4 in two succesive individual leagues Hydra-Damn good PL performance, got Ro4 this MSL and won the last MSL
So people are saying that Bisu deserves to be higher than people who have been doing well in individual leagues while also doing great in proleague while he dominates proleague (also I would like to point out that good PL results are more impresive if a player is in an individual league because they have to prepare for PL and their individual league, while someone like Bisu only has to worry obout PL.
Now Bisu's PL performance is SOOOOOOO good that I am still willing to put him in top 5, even above people with far better individual league results, but he needs to show some individual league results to move up beyond where he is (and I question even putting him above Zero, but Zero seems inconstant enough to me to lower his ranking a bit).
proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
and more important , SPL is a different competition , sometimes harder . you never know who you'll get to play , maybe a total newcomer . someone the team in front of you make the things perfectly harder for you , with the perfect player against you of the perfect map for him . competition is here more complicated .
bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
In the end, it simply doesn't matter why you think proleague should be weighted more when the PR WRITER and nearly everyone else has established that the consensus is individual leagues > proleague. You're arguing with yourself.
Dear Bisu fans. Playing in Proleague means that the coach picks the maps and, with some degree of confidence, the opponent. This is entirely different than a SL where you don't get to be picky. You have to play whomever the dices throw at you on whatever maps the said dices picked.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
But this is TL's PR. It has nothing to do with the Korean's perspective on the game.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
But this is TL's PR. It has nothing to do with the Korean's perspective on the game.
ok i heard what i want . so TL doesnt want to see the game like koreans do . i think its a little stupid but whatever . SC is korea . SC is ALL about korea . for several years now . the highest level of SC has almost always been in korea . the competition is in korea . koreans know SC better than you can ever imagine . pretend to make some defensible power ranking with your own opinion of SC is completly stupid . you have to live in the reality . but i see you want to stay a special foreign community who see things as she want . its your liberty , your choice . i respect that . i just think its sad .
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote:bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles .
Ahahahah, ahahahahahaahahahasdlkfhsdklfalfh
Oh my god, this is just so wrong. Holy crap.
Okay, you know what, even though I think you're absolutely bonkers for saying this, I will argue from your standpoint. Bisu has totally accomplished 2 titles worth of work by going 64-16 in proleague.
Bisu has acrued all of that since october of 2010. Now, you're streching pretty far back to give Bisu enough credit to be #1 on this rank. If you want to reach 8+ months back, I wonder what flash has? Oh, wow, he has an actual MSL! And 1 more month back and he has 2 MSLs and an OSL! Well, that's only 1 more title more than Bisu by your standards, but Bisu's still totally ahead of Flash, right?
Oh, wait, no, Flash has gone 52-16 in PL. While this isn't nearly as good as what Bisu has done, flash also has three actual titles! I wonder how much 52-16 is worth? I mean, flash is 12 wins behind Bisu, how much is 12 wins worth? 1/3rd a title? So Flash has 1 2/3rds an OSL/MSL in PL, and, you know, three actual OSL/MSLs.
During Bisu's PL streak, Flash has won as many titles as Bisu has in his whole career. Give me a break, if you want to bring up his damn overall PL stats for the past 8 months.
no need to arouse yourself . flash is clearly better than bisu on the long term . i am talking only about june . in june bisu was better than flash , thats a fact .
If you only are talking about June, let's talk about June. Bisu is 10-3 in all competitions in June, that is better than Flash. Jangbi is 21-2 in all competition in June, that is better than Bisu. That is also a fact.
But normally, people look beyond the immediate history when making these rankings, which is why Bisu is above Jangbi, and why Flash is over Bisu.
and yes i already said it , i would almost put jangbi 1# this month . but i think bisu is mort realistic when you watch on pure level of game .
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
But this is TL's PR. It has nothing to do with the Korean's perspective on the game.
ok i heard what i want . so TL doesnt want to see the game like koreans do . i think its a little stupid but whatever . SC is korea . SC is ALL about korea . for several years now . the highest level of SC has almost always been in korea . the competition is in korea . koreans know SC better than you can ever imagine . pretend to make some defensible power ranking with your own opinion of SC is completly stupid . you have to live in the reality . but i see you want to stay a special foreign community who see things as she want . its your liberty , your choice . i respect that . i just think its sad .
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more .
Wouldn't want to add fuel to the fire here, but i do want to know if koreans view PL > SL. Just for clarity, the answer shouldn't affect the way TL does the PR, or any other individual ranking for that matter (i.e. Kespa rank). Even if PL > SL, since PL is a team league, it still shouldn't have more weight in an individual ranking.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more .
Wouldn't want to add fuel to the fire here, but i do want to know if koreans view PL > SL. Just for clarity, the answer shouldn't affect the way TL does the PR, or any other individual ranking for that matter (i.e. Kespa rank). Even if PL > SL, since PL is a team league, it still shouldn't have more weight in an individual ranking.
Koreans see the individual leagues as better indicators of a player's skill than the proleagues. It is true that Koreans find proleagues to be much more EXCITING because of the atmosphere, sudden occurrences, etc, but most Koreans who are into BW all agree that individual leagues are much more important in displaying the 'power' of the player. And also, vaMpYr, your Korean friend is right in the idea that proleague is THE competition of SC because it is much more exciting to watch and it is fun for the general audience to watch, but in terms of showing power and dominance: No. Individual leagues are much more important. Oh, and by your argument of how Bisu did amazing in June for PL so should be Number #1, then Jangbi should be automatically declared God and all should worship him.
hi korean <3 ! . mm jangbi 2# is good , but he still can be declared better than bisu in june . i see your point about individual leagues for power and skill , and i can agree on some level , but what bisu did in proleague is absolutly monstruous and exeptional . its not just a " real big PL performance ". and its not just about his results . its about his games . he really played some spectacular SC . flash , JD or jangbi did not really .
On July 02 2011 21:40 hns wrote: How can a teamleague be more worth for the individual than an individual league?! No one argues about the overall importance of proleague here, yet the place to present yourself as a player against a stronger-growing competition is the individual league.
And that 2 OSL/MSL titles claim is hilarious.
This.
Proleague is probably more important than individual leagues. Good for them. But that still doesn't remove the fact that you face way stronger opponents when you advance in individuals than team leagues. So Bisu lost in the OFFLINE PRELIMS, where the competition is at it's lowest.
I keep my opinion about Jangbi being #1 followed by Flash or Jaedong.
And I'll requote that.
On July 02 2011 21:40 hns wrote: And that 2 OSL/MSL titles claim is hilarious.
On July 03 2011 00:54 vaMpYr wrote: hi korean <3 ! . mm jangbi 2# is good , but he still can be declared better than bisu in june . i see your point about individual leagues for power and skill , and i can agree on some level , but what bisu did in proleague is absolutly monstruous and exeptional . its not just a " real big PL performance ". and its not just about his results . its about his games . he really played some spectacular SC . flash , JD or jangbi did not really .
The only notable opponent Bisu has beaten this month is Baby. And Bisu has lost against roro and hyvaa in his best matchup. Seriously, check the recent match history of Bisu and you'll see. He has beaten a lot of mediocre opponents.
I don't know what dream world this is where 80% wins in PL is worth more than 2 SL titles. Sounds like someone is living in a fantasy world. Funny though, while we're talking about Bisu's 80% wins in PL are we going to forget Flash has 76% wins? Is that also worth 2 SL titles? So then Flash has 3 SL titles worth of achievement to Bisu's 2? Logic = FAIL
I also don't know how a few wins over easy opponents in PL is supposed to be more valuable than an MSL title earned the same month. None of Bisu's opponents are on PR, only one is even on CBNC, and Bisu lost that match. Even if Flash won "only" 60% last month, he was doing so against the hardest competition anybody played. Only 4 opponents (out of 15 games) were not PR/CBNC. Flash dropped 2 games to "weak" opponents. Bisu also dropped 2 games to a "weak" opponent... and did not beat anybody on PR or CBNC. Bisu's best win was over a slumping Hiya, whose vP ELO is now less than hyvaa's because of his current slump. FAIL
As convincing as Bisu's PL stats are and amazing as his play is... you'd think that some of that skill would carry over to SL. Simply put, either Bisu is greatly relying on the coaching staff for his PL results or he just totally freaks out in SLs. I'm inclined to believe the first just because I don't see how Bisu can have that level of nervousness in prelims.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
Leta being ranked #1 was probably the worst travesty in the PR's history imo
Why do you always leave Horang2 outside, not even CBNC... he is doing better than Movie IMO, he only lost to Jangbi (freaking god of SC) and Hoejja (lucky guy somehow winning for first time in his life). He is doing better than Movie, yeah he lost on ODT but still.
On July 03 2011 03:49 Yxes2211 wrote: As convincing as Bisu's PL stats are and amazing as his play is... you'd think that some of that skill would carry over to SL. Simply put, either Bisu is greatly relying on the coaching staff for his PL results or he just totally freaks out in SLs. I'm inclined to believe the first just because I don't see how Bisu can have that level of nervousness in prelims.
I don't think he plays worse in SL. The problem is he doesn't play better. As good as Flash is in PL, when he plays in SL he steps his game up another level. Flash is clutch. So is Jaedong. So was NaDa, and Savior, and Boxer, and Oov. Bisu is not clutch. When you're an S-rank player everyone is going to study your game. You need to step it up. Bisu doesn't.
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
Leta being ranked #1 was probably the worst travesty in the PR's history imo
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
Leta being ranked #1 was probably the worst travesty in the PR's history imo
Definitely.
Having gone back to find the rank in question, I'd have to disagree.
Of course, that PR itself was kind of dumb, being a two-week stop-gap measure to get the thing back on schedule, but taking Leta up to #1 when he had a 3-kill and a couple nice MSL wins (okay, one nice MSL win and a trouncing of Hyuk) to his credit isn't, honestly, that unreasonable. Unfortunately, it's a little harder to tell who else might have deserved it (Bisu? on the whole month of January, maybe Luxury or Jaedong?), but looking over the game lists (start here near the bottom) for those two weeks, plus looking at the previous PR, why was Leta such a travesty? In retrospect (i.e. after he threw away the series vs. Lux), a bad choice since you expect #1 to keep winning at least a little, but given the circumstances, hardly a travesty.
On July 03 2011 05:07 FranzF1 wrote: Why do you always leave Horang2 outside, not even CBNC... he is doing better than Movie IMO, he only lost to Jangbi (freaking god of SC) and Hoejja (lucky guy somehow winning for first time in his life). He is doing better than Movie, yeah he lost on ODT but still.
I take offense to this considering how nastily Hoejja crushed Horang2. >:[
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
Leta being ranked #1 was probably the worst travesty in the PR's history imo
By far the most controversial, and probably worst, rank imo. Putting TheZerg on instead of Calm entirely because "SKT is a more dominant force in proleague," Putting Zero above JD, the Bisu Fantasy 1&2 rank with him being an SKT fan. The Dogspa joke thing which was timely but upset a lot of people etc. The Leta rank was wrong, but this rank was just downright bonkers.
Wow, there's way more controversy in this rank than I expected there would be. Flash at #1 could be justified, but Flamewheel really didn't do it. I don't mean to insult him, but the way it was done is essentially what a fanboy could say to justify a loss streak: "He won all this stuff before, his losses don't matter and if you disagree you are a hater," entirely ignoring that the relevance of those previous events fades over time. In a month when it's not so clear cut, a little more should be written. I'm sure Flash fans could agree with that.
I really don't understand (and as TBLS go I tend to root Stork > Jaedong > Flash > Bisu, just so we're clear) why Flash's #1 rank is generating controversy.
We all know his PL month was kind of bad - but except for the loss to Hydra, those games absolutely didn't matter, except maybe to KT's psychological edge.
What did matter, what was this huge accomplishment, what absolutely cements him as the best, most skilled (objectively, not relatively) Starcraft player in history (to date), was a sixth title. Tying Nada. Golden Badge. Thrashing an A+ class player playing at a S-class level 3-0 after doing the same to another one.
Sure, flamewheel could have come out and said that - but the graphic says it just as efficiently. Flash is #1 based on his Starleague title and past history. That's pretty much it. And it's obvious enough it shouldn't need a big blurb explaining it. It's astounding how little fanfare Flash's accomplishment has gotten, considering its magnitude.
I don't even understand why you guys are writing replays to vampyr, it's as useless as telling GG.nore that Jaedong is not the second incarnation of Jesus or assuming that in Superarcs brain would be space for reasonable thoughts.
On July 03 2011 07:20 Lightwip wrote: Wow, there's way more controversy in this rank than I expected there would be. Flash at #1 could be justified, but Flamewheel really didn't do it. I don't mean to insult him, but the way it was done is essentially what a fanboy could say to justify a loss streak: "He won all this stuff before, his losses don't matter and if you disagree you are a hater," entirely ignoring that the relevance of those previous events fades over time. In a month when it's not so clear cut, a little more should be written. I'm sure Flash fans could agree with that.
Also, why is KeSPA a dog?
Flamewheel used the only justification you need for Flash to be #1
He won the MSL this month and tied Nada by doing it. He tied the greatest player of all time in Starleague victories, surely that is enough to get him #1 for the month he achieved it at least.
I am not a Flash fan at all but this is very clear cut. Quite frankly Flamewheel could have done a "Don't even try to argue with this one" and I would have been fine with it. Just because Bisu fans are delusional doesn't mean that Flash is not the clear #1. He demolished two of the top 3 zergs 6-0 with absurdly good play to win that final. A post-finals PL slump is not enough to take away his enormous achievement this month.
On July 02 2011 03:11 DarkOptik wrote: ... What I'm bitching about is ...
And apparently you've never read anything by Scott Adams, I guess.
Way to avoid addressing all questions, and misquoting / replying to well thought out posts with 1 liners.
Although I don't agree with some of the rankings, I was on your side initially. You're just a person fallible to your own subjectiveness, but when you're so defensive and dismiss/avoid every question/criticism/whatever addressed to you as "bitching", then I have to say that you're a terrible, terrible, PR writer.
Unlike streamers, gratefulness is irrelevant because well, it is the PR and tons of people would be eager to become the next PR writer. So here's to hoping to someone else replacing you soon.
On July 02 2011 03:11 DarkOptik wrote: ... What I'm bitching about is ...
And apparently you've never read anything by Scott Adams, I guess.
Way to avoid addressing all questions, and misquoting / replying to well thought out posts with 1 liners.
Although I don't agree with some of the rankings, I was on your side initially. You're just a person fallible to your own subjectiveness, but when you're so defensive and dismiss/avoid every question/criticism/whatever addressed to you as "bitching", then I have to say that you're a terrible, terrible, PR writer.
Unlike streamers, gratefulness is irrelevant because well, it is the PR and tons of people would be eager to become the next PR writer. So here's to hoping to someone else replacing you soon.
I don't think he has an obligation to write a page reply to every little criticism he gets.
Besides, he's the best PR writer we've had by far for the longest time.
I can hardly see anything wrong with the way he's ranked the players.
Only the Bisu fans are having a hard time digesting that their favourite player finds it impossible to break into an SL and so does not deserve a higher spot in the rankings.
Flash his PL statistics are stupid anyway, 3(4?) AKS were ''potentially'' stolen by Stats while Bisu got 3 In Winners league, Flash often wasn't even able to play because Stats was in a strange beast mode at that time.
You want to be the best player, you have to do well in both SL and PL thats it, both Hydra and Jaedong did decent in their respective PL and cruised through the ODT, and they are both MSL semi-finalists.
Flash #1 should be uncontested. Yellow #2 as well.
The order between #3 / #4 / #5 is discussable. I can accept it, although Jaedong as #3 after the start of the month is questionable. Apart from ZvT his other matchups seem really shaky, and i wouldn't put him as favorite in a ZvP or ZvZ vs a strong player in said matchups (ZvP vs Bisu, ZvZ vs Hydra for instance).
On July 02 2011 21:15 vaMpYr wrote: proleague is here all year , everyday ( or almost ) . its continually a part of landscape of SC . it has become more and more important above the years , its not like it was years ago . the first big proleague was the MBC vs SKT grand final in 2006 where sea exploded to the world for the only time of his life . after this , proleague became bigger and bigger . and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL .
Preach on, brotha!
PR writers have been F***ing with Sea and Leta for too long!!! I demand they be ranked #2 and #3 behind the almighty Bisu in the next PR to make up for all the injustice done to them in the name of "Starleague is also important". Sea in particular should always be automatic top 5 for continuing to win with such amazing practice partners as failhoon and hyun.
Leta being ranked #1 was probably the worst travesty in the PR's history imo
Definitely.
Having gone back to find the rank in question, I'd have to disagree.
Of course, that PR itself was kind of dumb, being a two-week stop-gap measure to get the thing back on schedule, but taking Leta up to #1 when he had a 3-kill and a couple nice MSL wins (okay, one nice MSL win and a trouncing of Hyuk) to his credit isn't, honestly, that unreasonable. Unfortunately, it's a little harder to tell who else might have deserved it (Bisu? on the whole month of January, maybe Luxury or Jaedong?), but looking over the game lists (start here near the bottom) for those two weeks, plus looking at the previous PR, why was Leta such a travesty? In retrospect (i.e. after he threw away the series vs. Lux), a bad choice since you expect #1 to keep winning at least a little, but given the circumstances, hardly a travesty.
Oh, and putting type.b on the PR when he had that flukey OSL run. That was kind of bad too.
The funniest thing about your post is that I open your second PR link, click on a random page of the discussion and the first thing I see is Vampyr arguing why Bisu should be placed higher, haha
i really dont see what is so weird here . i used to hate bisu at this time yes . now i like him . where is the problem in accepting a player's supremacy even when you hate him ?
This question is addressed to anyone who wishes to answer.
What would it take for Flash to get to #2? How horribly must Flash fail (short of retirement) to make you finally consider Flash's past achievements null, and move him down on the PR?
I don't disagree that Flash has been the most dominant player for 3 years now, and that he deserved every single #1 he got (I even thought that one #2 sometime ago was quite unfair for him). But the way flamewheel justified THIS time's #1 made me scared; he actually gives me the impression that short of retirement, nothing can rob Flash of his #1 spot. Flamewheel implies that only two excuses are needed to justify this: Flash's wrist injury, and Flash's past achievements. Flash deserved #1 this time, but does he deserve it next month if he keeps performing below par?
You're weird because your posting history is for instance full of claims of how you ''watch more korean SC games'' than others and mentionings your ''korean friend who knows the scene better than anyone on TL'', constant usage of comparisons to tennis players and whatnot as arguments, various absurd statements about Flash (''flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong'') and then has the nerve to talk about how you are very objective regarding the korean scene.
I will not get involved in any discussion with you. Call me immature if you want to, I just want to avoid getting banned (which I'm fairly certain I would considering how frustrating it would be) and shitting up the thread (which I'm afraid I'm already doing right now ). If TL had an ''Ignore''-function I would use it on you.
On July 04 2011 02:49 holyhalo5 wrote: This question is addressed to anyone who wishes to answer.
What would it take for Flash to get to #2? How horribly must Flash fail (short of retirement) to make you finally consider Flash's past achievements null, and move him down on the PR?
No, Flash will not be able to keep his spot in the upcoming months unless he gets rid of his wrist problems and starts delivering results again. This month was very different, and although I agree with everyone who wanted more written about Flash in the PR, the position was perfectly warranted.
I mean, I'd still give Flash more benefit of doubt than everyone else, but he'll get no free #1's in my book.
Holyhalo, Flash won the MSL and golden badge this month. Thus it was appropriate to reference his golds for this PR. He has plenty of opportunities to drop from #1. If he fails in the Ro16 and Ro32 again, then that is one possibility.
On July 04 2011 02:51 Holgerius wrote: You're weird because your posting history is for instance full of claims of how you ''watch more korean SC games'' than others and mentionings your ''korean friend who knows the scene better than anyone on TL'', constant usage of comparisons to tennis players and whatnot as arguments, various absurd statements about Flash (''flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong'') and then has the nerve to talk about how you are very objective regarding the korean scene.
I will not get involved in any discussion with you. Call me immature if you want to, I just want to avoid getting banned (which I'm fairly certain I would considering how frustrating it would be) and shitting up the thread (which I'm afraid I'm already doing right now ). If TL had an ''Ignore''-function I would use it on you.
you are a hudge idiot . being objective for ranking or skill level is something completly different than being subjective with a deep feeling about a player you hate . i was saying what i think of flash , nothing more . is it forbidden ? it never stopped me to always admit when flash was the best player in the world . being subjective is good thing sometimes you know , just expressing your feelings .
i never said my friend knows the scene better than anyone on TL and if i said it , then i was misexpress myself . he is not a good SC player , and not really passionnate or something . but he lived in korea during SC gold age , and he knows what is SC in korea . he used to love SC like many koreans and watched many events of it . and he learned me many things about it .
and if i often compare SC competition to tennis , its because i love tennis and i have a good knoweldge of it , thats all . it can be to any competition sport you want .
On July 03 2011 07:44 Malinor wrote: I don't even understand why you guys are writing replays to vampyr, it's as useless as telling GG.nore that Jaedong is not the second incarnation of Jesus or assuming that in Superarcs brain would be space for reasonable thoughts.
When you spew out venomous (and grossly erroneous) stuff like that about players, how do you expect someone to take you seriously when you proclaim that you're a beacon of objectivity?
You said exactly that. ''i know what im talking about . i have some korean friend who know the korean scene more than everyone on TL''.
The comparisons with other sports are generally completely irrelevant to the discussion. The ATP ranking is not comparable to the TL Power Rank at all.
You don't have to literally stop posting yo. Unless a moderator bans you. But if you don't want to be unpopular amongst the TL crowd you might want to change some things about your posting.
On July 04 2011 02:49 holyhalo5 wrote: This question is addressed to anyone who wishes to answer.
What would it take for Flash to get to #2? How horribly must Flash fail (short of retirement) to make you finally consider Flash's past achievements null, and move him down on the PR?
I don't disagree that Flash has been the most dominant player for 3 years now, and that he deserved every single #1 he got (I even thought that one #2 sometime ago was quite unfair for him). But the way flamewheel justified THIS time's #1 made me scared; he actually gives me the impression that short of retirement, nothing can rob Flash of his #1 spot. Flamewheel implies that only two excuses are needed to justify this: Flash's wrist injury, and Flash's past achievements. Flash deserved #1 this time, but does he deserve it next month if he keeps performing below par?
He didn't get #1 just because of his past achievements; he got it because he won the MSL this month and because he's also won MSLs in the past, this got him the golden badge. It's likely he'll fall in the coming months with his injury.
On July 04 2011 02:49 holyhalo5 wrote: This question is addressed to anyone who wishes to answer.
What would it take for Flash to get to #2? How horribly must Flash fail (short of retirement) to make you finally consider Flash's past achievements null, and move him down on the PR?
I don't disagree that Flash has been the most dominant player for 3 years now, and that he deserved every single #1 he got (I even thought that one #2 sometime ago was quite unfair for him). But the way flamewheel justified THIS time's #1 made me scared; he actually gives me the impression that short of retirement, nothing can rob Flash of his #1 spot. Flamewheel implies that only two excuses are needed to justify this: Flash's wrist injury, and Flash's past achievements. Flash deserved #1 this time, but does he deserve it next month if he keeps performing below par?
Don't act like a chicken with its head cutoff. Flamewheel was also the person who dropped Flash to #5 after that abysmal performance in December of last year. What Flamewheel was pointing out is that Flash has now tied NaDa's gold medal count in a manner that is, shall we say, most thoroughly convincing. He's not just saying "look at what Flash has done," but also pointing to when it was done. Flash has appeared in 7 of the past 9 finals. Even with an injury Flash STILL took the MSL gold, STILL had the best overall result of anyone last month. Basically, this is the equivalent to the "Don't even try to argue this one" that Savior received on the PR.
Does not mean Flash will receive #1 forever. He could drop next month. But this month? Anyone trying to argue it looks like a douche.
On July 04 2011 05:19 Holgerius wrote: You don't have to literally stop posting yo. Unless a moderator bans you. But if you don't want to be unpopular amongst the TL crowd you might want to change some things about your posting.
Honestly? I'd like for him to stop posting. He's ignorant AND arrogant.
Ignorant: "...maybe you dont have the same idea than me for PR , maybe you dont see it with the same seriousness as me , but if in fact you do , i think its time to grow up and work on PR more about objectivity and reality and less about feelings." I've posted more comments in PR threads than he has posted on the entire forum. And most of my posts are long. And I'm not the only one. He thinks he cares more than we do?
Ignorant: "bisu going 64 - 16 and 80% ratio is easily equivalent to 2 OSL/MSL titles ." So many things are wrong with this statement it just boggles my mind. And also, Flash is 76% so there really is not such a difference. Bisu might have scored a higher % last month, but he did so against WEAK opponents. And he also lost his most important games. Because he is not clutch. He is UNclutch.
Ignorant: "and now proleague is THE competition of SC . a korean's friend of me really confirmed that to me . OSL and MSL are not what it was in the early years , now its about PL . yes sure , OSL and MSL are still very important and very prestigious , but proleague is now more . its everyday , korea live with it everyday . with a large bigger media coverage than 5 - 6 years ago . 80% of the TV SC games in korea are now in SPL . so give it credit . im not making publicity stunt here , but i think you all are underrating the importance of SPL ." OSL and MSL make more money than PL does. You know why? Because most people DO NOT WATCH every PL game. Everybody watches these events: OSL finals (3 times per year), MSL finals (3 times per year), PL grand final (1 time per year). PL grand final is considered the most important, but it is a TEAM EVENT. Yes the best football player can be on a team that never wins, but the best tennis player as you mentioned all had GOOD results in tournaments. That was proof of their skill. Bisu has NO RESULTS in tournaments: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?section=korean&type=players&id=125&part=games&vs=all&league=individual&map=any&from_year=2010&from_month=7&from_day=22&to_year=2011&to_month=6&to_day=26&action=Update
NEVER making for about a year now. Bisu cannot play S-class Starcraft without his TEAM standing behind him. As I said, he is UNclutch.
Ignorant AND arrogant: "ok i heard what i want . so TL doesnt want to see the game like koreans do . i think its a little stupid but whatever ." ... "koreans know SC better than you can ever imagine . pretend to make some defensible power ranking with your own opinion of SC is completely stupid . you have to live in the reality ." -- ROFL? TLnet has former PROGAMERS who lived in Korea and played on professional teams. TLnet has native Koreans who are active on Korean message boards. TLnet is visited by coaches of Korean professional teams. Professional gamers are all aware of this site, sometimes mentioning us in interviews.
The thing is, you don't actually give a shit what Koreans think. You only care what YOU think and then hide behind the banner of "my Korean friend" when there are HUNDREDS of users here who have LIVED in Korea and HUNDREDS who have been following the Korean community for a decade or longer.
You want everyone to do what you want. You are a self-centered egomeniacal fuck who thinks he knows better than everyone else when he doesn't know shit. You have no respect for anyone else's viewpoint and then you are going to whine about how nobody respects yours? Go take your whining elsewhere.
Ya, as I said; if TL had an Ignore-function so I didn't have to see his posts I would definitely use it on Vampyr. It's just that ''Stop posting'' sounds a little cruel to me. He's welcome to keep on posting if he changes these irritating traits that he has.
i'll say one thing: Bisu is low (and should be lower imo) for the same reason horang2 isn't in the PR: Dropping out of starleagues in your best matchup in the offline prelims despite having decent PL performance doesn't cut it. In all honesty, Jangbi deserves a higher spot than Bisu. I'm quite tired of seeing bisu high in the PR because he's bisu.
On July 04 2011 06:57 Holgerius wrote: Ya, as I said; if TL had an Ignore-function so I didn't have to see his posts I would definitely use it on Vampyr. It's just that ''Stop posting'' sounds a little cruel to me. He's welcome to keep on posting if he changes these irritating traits that he has.
Expecting someone like that who disrespects the knowledge and understanding of an entire community of maybe more than a hundred thousand people, some of whom played professionally, to recognize that he is not special is unrealistic. Either he'll learn after he gets called out several times or he'll never learn and remain self-centered his whole life. It's not my job to play e-therapist.
i never wanted to make uncredible TL about SC . you cant never imagine how much i love this site , how much i respect the work done and how much its important for me .
and mortality , yes i want everyone to do what i want , because im god .
It seems none of you except Holgerius read my post, namely the last sentence of it. And it also seems that most of you guys agree with me - if Flash continues to lose games next month he won't keep #1. But does flamewheel think that too?
For those of you who didn't read my entire post, I agree with Flash #1 this month.
On July 04 2011 12:55 holyhalo5 wrote: It seems none of you except Holgerius read my post, namely the last sentence of it. And it also seems that most of you guys agree with me - if Flash continues to lose games next month he won't keep #1. But does flamewheel think that too?
For those of you who didn't read my entire post, I agree with Flash #1 this month.
I fully expect to be dropping him when SKT (Bisu) or CJ (Hydra) wins the PL grand final in the Ace match.
Even barring that I doubt he'll be playing that many games...
On July 04 2011 12:55 holyhalo5 wrote: It seems none of you except Holgerius read my post, namely the last sentence of it. And it also seems that most of you guys agree with me - if Flash continues to lose games next month he won't keep #1. But does flamewheel think that too?
For those of you who didn't read my entire post, I agree with Flash #1 this month.
I fully expect to be dropping him when SKT (Bisu) or CJ (Hydra) wins the PL grand final in the Ace match.
Even barring that I doubt he'll be playing that many games...
Wow, every time I check the PL results it seems Bisu gets another win and Fantasy another loss. Right now Fantasy has the same Elo as Soo. I'm thinking Bisu stole all of Fantasy's mojo.
On July 05 2011 07:08 Goragoth wrote: Wow, every time I check the PL results it seems Bisu gets another win and Fantasy another loss. Right now Fantasy has the same Elo as Soo. I'm thinking Bisu stole all of Fantasy's mojo.
Fantasy burned up all of his getting a gold, for someone in the kong line that takes a lot of mojo, Fantasy's debt is pretty big.
On July 05 2011 14:51 Kiante wrote: 90% winrate vs 50% winrate. yes?
Sorry making it individual leagues while doing good in proleague is way better then just being a proleague boss lol. Jaedong/Flash should be ahead of Bisu for sure this PR, and with how jaedong is playing in individual leagues and proleague should stay ahead of him.
On July 05 2011 14:51 Kiante wrote: 90% winrate vs 50% winrate. yes?
Sorry making it individual leagues while doing good in proleague is way better then just being a proleague boss lol. Jaedong/Flash should be ahead of Bisu for sure this PR, and with how jaedong is playing in individual leagues and proleague should stay ahead of him.
going 1-5 in proleague is "good"? thats not good, thats terrible.
PL is team based, induvidual leagues are where it`s at. Simply because it lets you measure players up against eachother, instead of having to base things off a number.
On July 05 2011 14:33 Kiante wrote: Bisu gets record for most wins in proleague. ever.
flash slumps
flash #1 bisu #5
i'm sorry what?
Flash was #1 the previous PR, he only needed to maintain his spot this month. He won the MSL in this PR's set of data that's a lot more important than some PL wins. Come complain if the situation is the same when Bisu decides to actually do something in the individual leagues. Good in PL only keeps Bisu in the PR 3-5 spots. Bad wrist included, nobody is a favorite in a BO5 against Flash. For me that's a pretty good metric of where a player should be ranked.
On July 05 2011 14:51 Kiante wrote: 90% winrate vs 50% winrate. yes?
Sorry making it individual leagues while doing good in proleague is way better then just being a proleague boss lol. Jaedong/Flash should be ahead of Bisu for sure this PR, and with how jaedong is playing in individual leagues and proleague should stay ahead of him.
going 1-5 in proleague is "good"? thats not good, thats terrible.
I think you're missing something. Most people don't care about a month's worth of proleague games when there's major individual league stuff going on. Flash won a title and made it into OSL, Bisu dropped out of OSL and never had a shot at the MSL. Bisu is clearly the better proleague player, but no one but Bisu fans care or think it's enough reason to award him #1.
He'd probably have a shot at stealing it if he could've made it out of prelims, but that was the nail in the coffin.
On July 05 2011 14:51 Kiante wrote: 90% winrate vs 50% winrate. yes?
Sorry making it individual leagues while doing good in proleague is way better then just being a proleague boss lol. Jaedong/Flash should be ahead of Bisu for sure this PR, and with how jaedong is playing in individual leagues and proleague should stay ahead of him.
going 1-5 in proleague is "good"? thats not good, thats terrible.
I think you're missing something. Most people don't care about a month's worth of proleague games when there's major individual league stuff going on. Flash won a title and made it into OSL, Bisu dropped out of OSL and never had a shot at the MSL. Bisu is clearly the better proleague player, but no one but Bisu fans care or think it's enough reason to award him #1.
He'd probably have a shot at stealing it if he could've made it out of prelims, but that was the nail in the coffin.
is PR belongs to flash fans for several time now ? we all know flash is the best player ever . nobody will say he is not . nobody . but i think you all are really overratted him compare to some others players and are too much seeing his "legend" thing . i think its really unfair to many other players . flash had many many 1# PR , more than everyone . and to defend his 1# spot this month with his "nada lol achievement" or others legend things about him is simply unfair to the "june players" bisu , jangbi , jaedong , movie , hoejja , soo ect ect . flash just failed his june month , and he deserve to down because of that . his MSL crush should just maitain him in the top 5 or top 3 . but not 1# . its unfair .
Funny how you, Kiante, talk about Bisu getting most wins in PL (over the entire season that spans over a period of many many months) ever and then all of a sudden turns around completely and argues about the winrate of just this specific month because ''the power rank is decided by month''.
I really don't see how Bisu could have a realistic shot at #1 with his constant failures in the individual leagues. It hasn't happened once, not twice... it happens every single time! Every single Starleague since a couple of years back. In the meantime Flash is busy tying Nada by stomping through his competition with 3-0's in a ridiculously dominating fashion while having wrist problems.
Bisu is a ridiculous monster in PL, but that has NEVER been more important to the PR than winning golds in the Starleagues. He has something to prove, and he just hasn't done it so far.
if you have and argument who can prove that bisu does not deserve 1# ( which is really defendable ) , flash still does not deserve 1# spot either . we can have jangbi or jaedong in 1# .
On July 05 2011 14:51 Kiante wrote: 90% winrate vs 50% winrate. yes?
Sorry making it individual leagues while doing good in proleague is way better then just being a proleague boss lol. Jaedong/Flash should be ahead of Bisu for sure this PR, and with how jaedong is playing in individual leagues and proleague should stay ahead of him.
going 1-5 in proleague is "good"? thats not good, thats terrible.
I think you're missing something. Most people don't care about a month's worth of proleague games when there's major individual league stuff going on. Flash won a title and made it into OSL, Bisu dropped out of OSL and never had a shot at the MSL. Bisu is clearly the better proleague player, but no one but Bisu fans care or think it's enough reason to award him #1.
He'd probably have a shot at stealing it if he could've made it out of prelims, but that was the nail in the coffin.
is PR belongs to flash fans for several time now ? we all know flash is the best player ever . nobody will say he is not . nobody . but i think you all are really overratted him compare to some others players and are too much seeing his "legend" thing . i think its really unfair to many other players . flash had many many 1# PR , more than everyone . and to defend his 1# spot this month with his "nada lol achievement" or others legend things about him is simply unfair to the "june players" bisu , jangbi , jaedong , movie , hoejja , soo ect ect . flash just failed his june month , and he deserve to down because of that . his MSL crush should just maitain him in the top 5 or top 3 . but not 1# . its unfair .
It is fair, because the same treatment would be given to anyone else doing the same thing. Remember when JD went 0-3 in the PL finals, then went 1-3 in the MSL? No one gave a shit about that; JD smashed through his competition in the OSL (including the same guy who made a fool out of him in the PL final) and won the Golden Badge! He then proceeded to lose to Stork in WCG in the same month, but once again; no one fucking cares because he won back to back OSLs for the first time since Boxer himself did it!
Stop assuming this is a conspiracy to keep Flash at the top. He does deserve the #1 spot, and you will find that most people agree with that.
Might have bumped Bisu over Hydra but i can't consider him a contender for first place when Flash takes home a TITLE. Nevermind the significance of him equaling nada, thats an MSL GOLD.
i must say vampyr i dont follow your logic i can promise you that in the next PR flash wont be amended 1# spot for tying nada's record if that helps your feeling and it may be very well we wont be seeing flash playing in quite some time with the wrist problem and all. i have no problem you expressing you subjective/objective feeling but i dont think anyone here is sharing them objectively/subjectively so just remember when u'r driving your car on the highway and wondering to your self why so many cars are driving on the opposite way in the same rout you need to take a breath count to 5 .... slowly and realize its you driving on the wrong side and if we're at it with this analogy plz stop wasting fuel dear god the world has a shortage dont you know
On July 05 2011 21:01 vaMpYr wrote: if you have and argument who can prove that bisu does not deserve 1# ( which is really defendable ) , flash still does not deserve 1# spot either . we can have jangbi or jaedong in 1# .
I thought you were going to stop posting? I read, re-read and tried again to understand your argument... but to no avail. I still don't see where you're coming from with this... Give it a break
On July 05 2011 21:01 vaMpYr wrote: if you have and argument who can prove that bisu does not deserve 1# ( which is really defendable ) , flash still does not deserve 1# spot either . we can have jangbi or jaedong in 1# .
Any player who fails in OSL prelims and in the first round of MSL does not deserve to be #1 on PR. They could go undefeated in PL for the entire month and win multiple ace games and they'd just be Leta 2.0.
Anyone who wins a title against strong competition has a shot at #1. Anyone who 6-0's their strong competition to win a title will always get #1 on the PR. There is no double standard here, Holgerius pointed out another time where a player got absolutely trashed in everything but one league and got #1 because they trashed one league (Jaedong did so 3-1, 3-0).
Name me one thing anyone else in this past month did that was bigger or more important than the MSL. If we're going to go on a month only basis and pick out Flash's PL losses, then we will. Please tell me ANYTHING anyone has done this month that is as important or as impressive as winning an MSL -- I'm completely disregarding all of Flash's history and pointing only to the MSL win, I'm not bringing up any biased arguments for my undying love of Flash, I want you to tell me what anyone else has done that's greater than winning an MSL.
I just realize this has to be the same Vampyr who had a terrible terrible history of trolling on the French bw forums back then. Got banned several times iirc. I guess he hasn't changed much.
Great PR as usual. I like the short and and efficient descriptions. I don't think Flash cared much about the games that he lost this month and there shouldn't really be a discussion about the #1 spot. I also like putting Bisu at #5 because it is clear now that it is not only bad luck when he loses in individual leauges.
Jangbi vs Jaedong was such a beautiful game. I hope they are both back in top form.
Kiante, why the fuck did you have to feed the troll? I thought you had more sense than that.
Also, good job proving that you never read these threads, EVER, since these points have been discussed at length repeatedly and precedents dictate that a player who drops the ball in individual leagues will get punished.
There's also the quality of opposition to factor in. PL games count more when the stakes high and opponents are good. Bisu got a lot of wins in June but basically didn't beat a single good player (except Wooki). That's not to say consistency against mediocre opponents counts for nothing, but Bisu didn't prove anything with his play in the past month, except for his consistent ability to lose against mediocre players in individual leagues.
On July 06 2011 02:19 Mortality wrote: Kiante, why the fuck did you have to feed the troll? I thought you had more sense than that.
Also, good job proving that you never read these threads, EVER, since these points have been discussed at length repeatedly and precedents dictate that a player who drops the ball in individual leagues will get punished.
I guess Bisu fans really are the most annoying.
Are you capable of doing anything but insulting people whenever they disagree with you? Every time I've had a discussion with you, that's exactly what you do. Seriously, you have to understand you're not some all-knowing PR sage. You can be wrong.
Man, how controversial is this PR? I am thoroughly entertained. Anyway just gonna remind people that if you're going to argue that:
Bisu = no.1 because of record-breaking performance in PL OVERALL (throughout the season), then necessarily
Flash tying Nada title count must be considered as well (and it cannot just count for "1" MSL Gold - though for me that's enough of a reason for his spot).
It would be completely inconsistent to take one over the other. Now PR is highly subjective. It takes into account certain objective elements, including but not limited to: winrates, number of wins, ELO, and Starleague advancement...
...as well as certain subjective elements, including but not limited to: quality of wins, quality of losses, quality of opponents (non-ELO based), momentum (whether a player is on-fire or not/hotness), historical performance, and expected standard of performance (emphasis supplied)
Now I'm not saying this is the actual formula - clearly the standards of the subjective elements differ, and I could be missing certain concepts in outlining my thoughts. However, I think that anyone arguing against the PR should argue with due respect and consideration to these subjective factors. These subjective factors, and their correlative weight, are what makes the ranking lean in favor of one player, or against one player.
Simply put, they involve the discretionary dimension in the PR, a power and a privilege (and a duty) that the PR writer enjoys. True, he can't be arbitrary about this (actually he can, exemplified by no.2 and Fakesteve's Sea for no.1 ranking), but by the same token you cannot really say that he's wrong when he uses that discretion to decide in a ranking you don't agree with. In other words, neither of you have a monopoly of truth, but in a situation where there is really no truth or falsity, but only an exercise of discretion based on certain objective and subjective factors, you'd be silly to argue in absolutes.
So while you have the freedom to post your opinion, don't make yourself look like an idiot banging your head against a brick wall. At the very least, use logic and experience, and keep an open mind.
On July 06 2011 03:28 okum wrote: There's also the quality of opposition to factor in. PL games count more when the stakes high and opponents are good. Bisu got a lot of wins in June but basically didn't beat a single good player (except Wooki). That's not to say consistency against mediocre opponents counts for nothing, but Bisu didn't prove anything with his play in the past month, except for his consistent ability to lose against mediocre players in individual leagues.
if i say the game with hiya shows a hiya at his best lvl ? ( one of the best tvp player ) i will look like a complete fool again ? ..
one of the highest level of SC ive ever seen , this game was the apogee of bisu's june .
but hey , nevermind of what i say , im a complete fool on TL .
On July 06 2011 04:20 Caladbolg wrote: Man, how controversial is this PR? I am thoroughly entertained. Anyway just gonna remind people that if you're going to argue that:
Bisu = no.1 because of record-breaking performance in PL OVERALL (throughout the season), then necessarily
Flash tying Nada title count must be considered as well (and it cannot just count for "1" MSL Gold - though for me that's enough of a reason for his spot).
It would be completely inconsistent to take one over the other. Now PR is highly subjective. It takes into account certain objective elements, including but not limited to: winrates, number of wins, ELO, and Starleague advancement...
...as well as certain subjective elements, including but not limited to: quality of wins, quality of losses, quality of opponents (non-ELO based), momentum (whether a player is on-fire or not/hotness), historical performance, and expected standard of performance (emphasis supplied)
Now I'm not saying this is the actual formula - clearly the standards of the subjective elements differ, and I could be missing certain concepts in outlining my thoughts. However, I think that anyone arguing against the PR should argue with due respect and consideration to these subjective factors. These subjective factors, and their correlative weight, are what makes the ranking lean in favor of one player, or against one player.
Simply put, they involve the discretionary dimension in the PR, a power and a privilege (and a duty) that the PR writer enjoys. True, he can't be arbitrary about this (actually he can, exemplified by no.2 and Fakesteve's Sea for no.1 ranking), but by the same token you cannot really say that he's wrong when he uses that discretion to decide in a ranking you don't agree with. In other words, neither of you have a monopoly of truth, but in a situation where there is really no truth or falsity, but only an exercise of discretion based on certain objective and subjective factors, you'd be silly to argue in absolutes.
So while you have the freedom to post your opinion, don't make yourself look like an idiot banging your head against a brick wall. At the very least, use logic and experience, and keep an open mind.
That said, Flash is DEFINITELY no.1 (lol).
first intelligent post of the week i think . i think you are true . and i like your line of argument . i will consider it . thanks !
i think im too emotive to speak like you ^^ . i say you GG
I'm still scratching my head to understand why there is a flock of Bisu fans arguing for Bisu being no1 (not just slightly higher, no, but number ONE) when he dropped yet again from OSL against medicore opponents and at the same time Flash tore through MSL with a record 6:0 totally embarrassing Zero and Hydra and tying Nada's record of 6 titles...
Sure Bisu beat a few guys in PL and Flash dropped the ball there but damn, to argue that this is why Bisu should be first is simply ridiculous. Flash won the most PL games two years in a row and somehow I haven't see people screaming he should be no1 because of that.
the 2008/2009 PL was dominated by bisu sorry . flash was good too but bisu did better . even jaedong did better with crushing the winners league .
i repeat im NOT a fan of bisu AT ALL . stop talking about "bisu fans" . nobody here said he was a bisu fan .
and yes after considering all arguments of this thread , maybe bisu 1# is a little too high due to his OSL fail . but still , flash 1# is the same problem . being 1# with his catastrophic PL month is nonsense . and bisu played better SC than flash , so bisu should be higher . its logic . the 1# spot is hard to choose maybe , it can go to jangbi or maybe jaedong . maybe another one , i dont know . but put flash in there only because his MSL gold is overrated . there should be discussion about it at least . maybe even flash can pretend the 1# spot . but there was too many times that flash is 1# just because he is flash and ect ect . its time to discuss about others possibilities .
Bisu didn't play better SC than Flash. Flash beat 2 top class zergs 6-0 in the MSL, Bisu beat weaker opponents in PL. He played better SC in proleague than Flash, Flash played better SC in OSL and MSL this month.
If Flash had gotten knocked out of OSL then he wouldn't be #1. It's like you keep forgetting that he's in OSL on top of winning MSL, unlike Bisu. Bisu ONLY has PL, plain and simple, and PL is not more important to individual accolades than individual titles. There's a reason it's only you and Kiante who even bothered with saying Flash isn't #1.
Also for someone who isn't a Bisu fan, you sure have carried his torch for awhile. Bisu can crush every scrub in proleague he wants, it's not as good as 3-0ing Hydra and Zero when he can't even 2-1 Hyvaa. To me, you seem like less of a fan of a particular player and more of a dissident of Flash. Your signature which you refuse to change is not just proclaiming Jaedong as great, but doing so at the expense of Flash -- there was actually a recent case of this. A guy named GG.NoRe had tons of alt accounts, most glorifying Jaedong and most people considered him just a huge Jaedong fan, but some of his alt accounts were glorifying Bisu at the same time, and ALL of them hating on Flash.
Maybe I'm just so freakin paranoid about GG.NoRe that I see him in every post! D:
flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong
I have no idea why we actually bother responding at all to what he's posting. Goddamnit this thread is ridiculous in the last few pages.
This thread is sad and funny at the same time. Flash fans, you guys should really try and ignore the Bisu fans, trying to reason with any of them is like trying to reason with a brick wall, it just won't happen... ever. This whole fiasco is in my opinion the PR writers fault for giving Bisu time and time again the benefit of a doubt and thus deluding his fanbois.
On July 06 2011 07:12 vaMpYr wrote: the 2008/2009 PL was dominated by bisu sorry . flash was good too but bisu did better . even jaedong did better with crushing the winners league .
i repeat im NOT a fan of bisu AT ALL . stop talking about "bisu fans" . nobody here said he was a bisu fan .
and yes after considering all arguments of this thread , maybe bisu 1# is a little too high due to his OSL fail . but still , flash 1# is the same problem . being 1# with his catastrophic PL month is nonsense . and bisu played better SC than flash , so bisu should be higher . its logic . the 1# spot is hard to choose maybe , it can go to jangbi or maybe jaedong . maybe another one , i dont know . but put flash in there only because his MSL gold is overrated . there should be discussion about it at least . maybe even flash can pretend the 1# spot . but there was too many times that flash is 1# just because he is flash and ect ect . its time to discuss about others possibilities .
No, your not a Bisu fan you're a Flash anti-fan, and it's not that you have someone in mind that has played better than Flash, you just don't want Flash being number 1. Plain and simple.
PR is a monthly ranking, true, but if that term was absolute than JD probably wouldn't have been on last months PR. When it comes to top tier players we give them the benefit of the doubt because they have been so consistent for such a long time. Similarly, when someone has been playing bad for a long time and has a good month, we are reluctant to say they deserve a top spot on the PR simply because it could've just been a good month and we are hesitant to believe it will continue. So lets look at Flash's competition for #1:
Bisu: Everything has already been said, great PL results and failed OSL prelims does not a number 1 make. If Bisu was really playing as amazingly as some make him out to be, then why can't he win in SLs? Why can't his play transfer over? I don't know the answer but there plenty of possibilities. Simply put, as impressive as Bisu's PL play is something is obviously wrong somewhere that is not allowing Bisu's play to transfer over from PL to SLs. And honestly it would be nice for him to do something given the amount of Tosses in the current OSL.
Jaedong: Jaedong had a sick month... towards the end. You know what was also this month? The worst losing streak of his career. You can't discount that. Plus JD wasn't even IN the MSL anymore because he lost at the end of May to ZerO. Yes he 2-0'd his OSL group convincingly. Yes he went on an 8-game winstreak. But that doesn't make up for his lackluster performance coming into this month.
Jangbi: An incredible month for Jangbi no doubt, and I'm loving that he's back. However, one amazing month does not make up for 2 years worth of sub-par performance. I'm sorry, but I don't believe Jangbi deserves a #1 spot for one good month.
Simply put, Flash had an amazing MSL run in June. 6-0 speaks for itself against strong competition. Yes he had a poor PL performance, but he also has a pretty significant wrist injury, which leaves me inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt. So yes, Flash didn't the same dominating month he's had in the past, but Jaedong and Bisu both had similar problems this month (JD's losing streak and Bisu's OSL fail) and giving #1 to someone who has been extremely inconsistent for a long time is just foolish. And Hydra and ZerO shouldn't take the place of the dude that smashed them 3-0. So I would say the only 2 who have any debatable claim to #1 are: JD and (ugh for arguments sake) Bisu. And when each had similar failures in June, I go with the dude with the gold.
Not that this will change anyone's opinions or includes anything that hasn't already been said, but I wanted to post
i dont know how i can do to convince you , but im NOT GGnore , i dont even know who he is .
and im NOT a bisu fan , im the BIGGEST jaedong fan ever . and im not talking about him here . I think these statements says it all:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea why we actually bother responding at all to what he's posting. Goddamnit this thread is ridiculous in the last few pages.
about this , i dont know the relation with this thread . i was expressing my personal feelings about flash , am i free in this world to do this ? i have not insulted anybody and was not direspect anybody .
my personal feelings about flash have nothing to do with this thread . i can swear on my computer head that if jaedong won the MSL on a 6 0 record with hard crush vs two very good players exactly like flash did and failed 1 5 on PL in a pathetic way like flash did in the same time bisu or flash crushed PL in a BEAUTIFUL way with a monster jangbi with all that , i would be here to argue that jaedong should not be 1# .
On July 06 2011 07:54 vaMpYr wrote:my personal feelings about flash have nothing to do with this thread . i can swear on my computer head that if jaedong won the MSL on a 6 0 record with hard crush vs two very good players exactly like flash did and failed 1 5 on PL in a pathetic way like flash did in the same time bisu or flash crushed PL in a BEAUTIFUL way with a monster jangbi with all that , i would be here to argue that jaedong should not be 1# .
well you'd just be wrong there, too, then. The fact of the matter is that virtually everyone(aside from yourself obviously) can agree that individual league performance trumps PL. Flash won a title this month. Bisu failed to qualify. So in SLs, Flash>Bisu(understatement), and in PL, Bisu>Flash. But SL>PL and in that case Flash>Bisu on the PR. See? Simple.
Now you can sit here and continue trying to argue that SL>PL isn't the case, but you're just plain wrong. The later rounds of a starleague show us the highest level of competition between two players, in best-of format. Bisu hasn't won a best of anything in YEARS. To suggest that this guy could be #1 on the PR because of a handful of mediocre PL wins, the best being over a inconsistent HiyA, while simultaneously failing to even QUALIFY for a starleague, is downright preposterous.
Frankly, if Bisu doesn't make it through the MST that's coming up, I'd personally drop him even farther, regardless of PL performance. It's getting ridiculous at this point.
flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong
flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have no idea why we actually bother responding at all to what he's posting. Goddamnit this thread is ridiculous in the last few pages.
about this , i dont know the relation with this thread . i was expressing my personal feelings about flash , am i free in this world to do this ? i have not insulted anybody and was not direspect anybody .
my personal feelings about flash have nothing to do with this thread . i can swear on my computer head that if jaedong won the MSL on a 6 0 record with hard crush vs two very good players exactly like flash did and failed 1 5 on PL in a pathetic way like flash did in the same time bisu or flash crushed PL in a BEAUTIFUL way with a monster jangbi with all that , i would be here to argue that jaedong should not be 1# .
Uhm... I'm no expert but isn't vampyr's posting in this thread borderline ban worthy?
Horrible English, horrible post composition, declaring insulting falsity against a progamer as mere "opinions"...
This is probably a grey zone but I think at least a warning should be warranted by now. He's obviously trashing/trolling this thread and I think it would be much appreciated if someone could put a stop to it.
On July 06 2011 08:19 vaMpYr wrote: show me where please . show me the words or sentences where i disrespect flash .
"flash sucks in psychologic . flash sucks in creativity . flash sucks in intelligence . flash sucks in mental strenght . he is NOT a micro player like jaedong , bisu or boxer . he loves turtle . he is NOTHING . he just learnt starcraft copying progamers when he was 12 . he just SUCKS compare to jaedong"
Flash: 6-0's his competition in the MSL to take the gold and advances in the OSL. Loses some games that ultimately didn't mean much because KT's position was decided/close to decided.
Bisu: Wins a couple games in the proleague; wins some more that are meaningless since SKT was locked at #1. Gets knocked out of the OSL prelims.
Flash won when it mattered and lost when it didn't. Bisu won when it didn't matter and lost when it did. That's why Flash is #1.
It's time for the ultimate Bisu Fan (me) to make the final verdict and lay this arguing to rest:
First Issue: Flash is #1 Verdict: Approved. Flash has earned another OSL title tie-ing Nada. That is the greatest achievement of July of any player. He clearly deserves this spot based on that merit. Because this ties or makes him the greatest Starcraft Player of all Time.
Second Issue: Blind fanboism Verdict: Disapproved. As a Bisu fan we must all tip our hats in the direction of Flash as we honor the dude for becoming the BOAT in Starcraft. He deserves our greatest respect as he even showed some true colors playing protoss that one time that we won't discuss more here (teehee). Flash is the best and Bisu will spend the next year winning every title left available to him. See July 21st (god why is that match so far away!)
Third Issue: Jaedong #3 Verdict: It's Complicated. Regardless of my fanboisms, I though that Bisu accomplished enough through his PL achievements to be in the #3 spot. He really has stepped up his game from last year and even though its recognized, this should be reflected in his rank. 3-5 Are really hard though. If you base the rank of opponents and not merits then JD and Hydra have good claims on the other two spots on top of indivdual stats. I think this PR should have resulted in a 3 way tie for #3 and skipped to Zero at #6. But of course we can't have that and we must let the TL master, "FlamingWheely" make decisions on his own.
Summary: The results of July will really tell us where everyone stands in line. JD will be low on the list because his team lost. Unless there is some outstanding play in his few games in the SL. Flash will only remain #1 if KT-Flash wins the GF. #1 will go to Bisu as long as he wins his individuals, even if SKT loses to some lame team like Khan. Because at that point it meant CJ-Hydra doesn't even make the GF. So Hydra remains in the top 5 but not #1. If CJ does win the GF then Hydra will take the crown for his first time ever (am I mistaken? has he been #1?).
TLDR: Bisu fans love Bisu. He will hold #1 soon enough, stand proud fans! And Tip of the Hat to Flash and FlameWheel.
when i say " flash sucks " its insulting him ? .. i want to understand ..
sorry if im bad in english , i didnt know i can get ban or warned for that .
i really want to make efforts but i really dont know why im seen as a troller or something . to be honest , i dont even really know what trolling means exactly ..
and this quote about "flash sucks .. ect " is from early 2010 . so forget it lol ..
On July 06 2011 09:51 BisuDagger wrote: It's time for the ultimate Bisu Fan (me) to make the final verdict and lay this arguing to rest:
First Issue: Flash is #1 Verdict: Approved. Flash has earned another OSL title tie-ing Nada. That is the greatest achievement of July of any player. He clearly deserves this spot based on that merit. Because this ties or makes him the greatest Starcraft Player of all Time.
Second Issue: Blind fanboism Verdict: Disapproved. As a Bisu fan we must all tip our hats in the direction of Flash as we honor the dude for becoming the BOAT in Starcraft. He deserves our greatest respect as he even showed some true colors playing protoss that one time that we won't discuss more here (teehee). Flash is the best and Bisu will spend the next year winning every title left available to him. See July 21st (god why is that match so far away!)
Third Issue: Jaedong #3 Verdict: It's Complicated. Regardless of my fanboisms, I though that Bisu accomplished enough through his PL achievements to be in the #3 spot. He really has stepped up his game from last year and even though its recognized, this should be reflected in his rank. 3-5 Are really hard though. If you base the rank of opponents and not merits then JD and Hydra have good claims on the other two spots on top of indivdual stats. I think this PR should have resulted in a 3 way tie for #3 and skipped to Zero at #6. But of course we can't have that and we must let the TL master, "FlamingWheely" make decisions on his own.
Summary: The results of July will really tell us where everyone stands in line. JD will be low on the list because his team lost. Unless there is some outstanding play in his few games in the SL. Flash will only remain #1 if KT-Flash wins the GF. #1 will go to Bisu as long as he wins his individuals, even if SKT loses to some lame team like Khan. Because at that point it meant CJ-Hydra doesn't even make the GF. So Hydra remains in the top 5 but not #1. If CJ does win the GF then Hydra will take the crown for his first time ever (am I mistaken? has he been #1?).
TLDR: Bisu fans love Bisu. He will hold #1 soon enough, stand proud fans! And Tip of the Hat to Flash and FlameWheel.
Not neccesarily, remember Jaedong won the last 2 games despite them losing to STX 1-4, they did win very convincingly in an awesome game against Khan and Jaedong once again won his respective match. Jaedong is still in the OSL(not sure when ro16 hits though) and is seeded in the MST. Bisu's spot will depend on how he does in the MST(seriously, if he doesn't make it out of that frigging group then its pathetic) and how good he will do at the PL Final, even if SKT does take it, if Bisu loses his match then there is no way he will be high.
On July 06 2011 10:02 vaMpYr wrote: when i say " flash sucks " its insulting him ? .. i want to understand ..
sorry if im bad in english , i didnt know i can get ban or warned for that .
i really want to make efforts but i really dont know why im seen as a troller or something . to be honest , i dont even really know what trolling means exactly ..
and this quote about "flash sucks .. ect " is from early 2010 . so forget it lol ..
to be fair its not just your english, its your tendency to put dots everywhere on random spots.
Can people stop saying Bisu fans as if tons of them are here? Its really majority vampyr and its unfair to group us all with him (and hes not even a Bisu fan, or so he claims).
He is just a crusader. Plenty of those both in real world and on the forums. The types who think that whole world is wrong and they are right. And they try hard to convert people to their cause being deaf to any reasonable arguments...
But he made this thread entertaining, I will give it to him. If he had done it on purpose then this is the best trolling I have seen on TL...
After reading over this thread and several other PR threads over time, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of these arguments could be avoided if we ever wrote up and posted a Power Rank mission statement. Is the Proleague not as important as the OSL and MSL, or are they of equal importance? What about non-OSL/MSL/Proleague tournaments? Do invitationals count? If SPL isn't as important, is there a point at which a certain amount of SPL wins become as important as OSL wins? In other words, how is a player judged? I'm not saying that the PR should seek to become an objective number count like the ELO. I understand that statistics don't tell the whole story and that the PR seeks to interpret the numbers to tell the "full story" of who are the 10 most formidable players in a given month. That's fine, but without a comprehensive, unchanging statement that fully lays out how this interpretation is formed, people will continue create their own interpretations and that can only lead to more senseless arguments.
On July 06 2011 15:08 RBorin wrote: After reading over this thread and several other PR threads over time, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of these arguments could be avoided if we ever wrote up and posted a Power Rank mission statement. Is the Proleague not as important as the OSL and MSL, or are they of equal importance? What about non-OSL/MSL/Proleague tournaments? Do invitationals count? If SPL isn't as important, is there a point at which a certain amount of SPL wins become as important as OSL wins? In other words, how is a player judged? I'm not saying that the PR should seek to become an objective number count like the ELO. I understand that statistics don't tell the whole story and that the PR seeks to interpret the numbers to tell the "full story" of who are the 10 most formidable players in a given month. That's fine, but without a comprehensive, unchanging statement that fully lays out how this interpretation is formed, people will continue create their own interpretations and that can only lead to more senseless arguments.
But that is so...boring. I don't want a mission statement spoiling everything, but why should I have all the fun?
On July 06 2011 15:08 RBorin wrote: After reading over this thread and several other PR threads over time, I have come to the conclusion that a lot of these arguments could be avoided if we ever wrote up and posted a Power Rank mission statement. Is the Proleague not as important as the OSL and MSL, or are they of equal importance? What about non-OSL/MSL/Proleague tournaments? Do invitationals count? If SPL isn't as important, is there a point at which a certain amount of SPL wins become as important as OSL wins? In other words, how is a player judged? I'm not saying that the PR should seek to become an objective number count like the ELO. I understand that statistics don't tell the whole story and that the PR seeks to interpret the numbers to tell the "full story" of who are the 10 most formidable players in a given month. That's fine, but without a comprehensive, unchanging statement that fully lays out how this interpretation is formed, people will continue create their own interpretations and that can only lead to more senseless arguments.
I don't know where the confusion is. Individual leagues involve playing against progressively better players in a series format on various maps. Proleague involves playing against any player on the opposite team on chosen maps. It's really the fanboyism/anti-fanboyism doing the flaming.
I think Flamewheel is doing a good job in the sense that he also looks beyond just leagues and he looks into the matches themselves. Of course, he's still fallible to overlook things, but he's been pretty consistent in prioritizing leagues and match-ups.
I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
It's very obvious why Bisu is a PL player when he can be sent out on maps he likes and play in usually a matchup he's best at. His team is deep, so he can be played in a fashion where he's not just having to face random snipers every single proleague game like Flash and Jaedong are.
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
We're not saying ''Flash won MSL, he should be #1''. We're saying Flash just absolutely dominated two formidable top-class opponents to go 6-0 through the semi-final and the final of MSL (while having wrist problems), and by doing that tying Nada's record for most Starleague titles won in the history of the game, in a month when there was nothing else even remotely close in importance going on (no late-stage OSL at the same time).
Also, ever heard of the concept ''benefit of doubt''? Now, I may be biased, but I think someone who has been in 7 out of the last 9 Starleague finals deserves more of this than anyone else in the scene...
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked? A MSL win is a MSL win and Hydra was and is simply better at ZvZ than Great. Hydra might even be the best ZvZ player at the moment, just like Flash is the best TvZ player.
I agree with Flash's placement as #1, btw. PR has traditionally favoured historic accomplishments and this was a monumental achievement. But Flash accomplished nothing this month other than winning the MSL. He lost all his games in PL* and got through the OSL really easily because Bogus made some huge mistakes and Hyun fluked himself into the OSL. There are certainly arguments for not putting Flash at #1.
However, Flamewheel made it very clear that he was awarding Flash the #1 based on his past achievements in order to honour his accomplishment. So I don't know why people are still complaining.
But don't brush aside an MSL gold based on some arbitrary distinction like the match-up. JD got his golden mouse by winning a ZvZ and I'd really rather not have somebody say it wasn't worth as much as Flash's golden mouse because of it. The better player wins and it's always deserved.
* Edit: Flash actually beat FBH in PL, my bad. However, his wins against Hydra were accounted for in last month's PR, if we want to get pedantic. Anyway.
Jaedong beat Fantasy in that OSL, a guy who just crushed him in PL finals a week prior. Hydra and Calm literally played 3 ZvZs in a row to win their MSLs. They did beat Jaedong but they were by far the most deflating and uninteresting title runs in history. They've since proven that both of them are solid players. We all know ZvZ has the largest luck element of any matchup, so it comes off to people as more obvious than other champions' luck who didn't ZvZ there way there.
I don't think they didn't deserve their titles. It's not their fault they got matched up with nothing but ZvZ, they just did what they could to win and clearly earned their way there. Still, an undoubtedly lackluster series of games and absolutely forgettable title runs, sad as it is to say.
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked?
Instead of useless arguing let's do some simple math. In June we have 3 type of players activity: PL, MSL and OSL. Lets rate the player performance from 0 (complete failure) to 10 (complete success).
Bisu: PL (7-1) = 9, MSL= OSL = 0 (not perfoming at all). Total = 9 Flash: PL (1-5) = 1, MSL = 10 (6-0), OSL = 7. Total = 18. Jaedong: PL (7-3) = 8, MSL = 0, OSL = 10. Total = 18.
Due to gold medal Flash takes priority over JD. Bisu not even close to both of them. I hope all Bisu fanboys can calc?
To prevent whining about importance of PL and unimportance of mere Star Leagues: PR is individual ranking and you can't place in-team performance over individual results, it just wrong..
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked?
Neither of those things are really true?
Not to mention they're totally different ideas.
ZvZvZvZ semis mean the situation(generally maps) being extremely favorable for zerg. So it cheapens the win as it implies part of your championship belongs to you playing the right race.
Not saying if this was actually true or not. But it certainly is the perception.
ZerO didn't choke on that Final vs Flash. Flash won with new BO advantage and ZerO was too stubborn to mix up his plays. Add in some cheese into your play in a BOx!
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked?
Neither of those things are really true?
Which was my point all along. ZvZ isn't some shitty auto-win match-up, just like Flash winning against Hydra and Zero wasn't guaranteed or easy. But I can infer from your comment that you think ZvZ is not as deserving as the other match-ups. Good to know.
On July 06 2011 23:41 Xiphos wrote: ZerO didn't choke on that Final vs Flash. Flash won with new BO advantage and ZerO was too stubborn to mix up his plays. Add in some cheese into your play in a BOx!
Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking.
On July 06 2011 21:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong beat Fantasy in that OSL, a guy who just crushed him in PL finals a week prior. Hydra and Calm literally played 3 ZvZs in a row to win their MSLs. They did beat Jaedong but they were by far the most deflating and uninteresting title runs in history. They've since proven that both of them are solid players. We all know ZvZ has the largest luck element of any matchup, so it comes off to people as more obvious than other champions' luck who didn't ZvZ there way there.
I don't think they didn't deserve their titles. It's not their fault they got matched up with nothing but ZvZ, they just did what they could to win and clearly earned their way there. Still, an undoubtedly lackluster series of games and absolutely forgettable title runs, sad as it is to say.
Actually PvP is more luck based than ZvZ. Anyway, it still would count for more to win a coinflip matchup than one biased to the race the winner was playing (i.e. TvZ where T has a slight edge). And how entertaining the games were has absolutely no bearing on ranking the skill of the players; so your last sentence really baffles me.
I didn't say they did, but people dislike ZvZ, dislike titles decided only by ZvZ, and disparage ZvZ wins -- for and against players (How often recently have you seen folks go "Well, Jaedong lost, but it was a ZvZ" ? It's not just title runs that are disparaged in the matchup).
I think they deserved the title, I do not think they were the best players in the tournament in spite of it. I don't think you can say the same thing for Flash unless you're absolutely convinced Jaedong would've had his number in the finals had he made it there.
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked?
Neither of those things are really true?
Which was my point all along. ZvZ isn't some shitty auto-win match-up, just like Flash winning against Hydra and Zero wasn't guaranteed or easy. But I can infer from your comment that you think ZvZ is not as deserving as the other match-ups. Good to know.
On July 06 2011 23:41 Xiphos wrote: ZerO didn't choke on that Final vs Flash. Flash won with new BO advantage and ZerO was too stubborn to mix up his plays. Add in some cheese into your play in a BOx!
Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking.
I'd disagree. Does every loser "choke"? Can you really "choke" at all if you're as badly outclassed as ZerO was? Just for reference, here's the liquibet vote:
True, ZerO won a PL game against Flash just before the MSL Final. True, I thought ZerO had it in him to go 1-3 - and if he got really lucky and made it to 2-2 I might have given him a good shot to win. But when it comes down to it, Flash is the Ultimate Weapon and the definition of achievement over the last year, while ZerO's a solid A-class Zerg who's incredibly streaky and hasn't merited a nickname better than "Prince of Queens" (which, while cool, doesn't bespeak greatness).
And in that scenario, he lost game 1 and 2 badly without doing anything seriously wrong - after that, even succumbing to nerves in game 3 doesn't deserve the epithet of "choke".
(You want a choke, let's talk about another recent 0-3 final where the loser was favored... fffuuuu Dinotoss!)
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues).
I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument.
People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm.
I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked?
Neither of those things are really true?
Which was my point all along. ZvZ isn't some shitty auto-win match-up, just like Flash winning against Hydra and Zero wasn't guaranteed or easy. But I can infer from your comment that you think ZvZ is not as deserving as the other match-ups. Good to know.
On July 06 2011 23:41 Xiphos wrote: ZerO didn't choke on that Final vs Flash. Flash won with new BO advantage and ZerO was too stubborn to mix up his plays. Add in some cheese into your play in a BOx!
Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking.
I'd disagree. Does every loser "choke"? Can you really "choke" at all if you're as badly outclassed as ZerO was? Just for reference, here's the liquibet vote:
True, ZerO won a PL game against Flash just before the MSL Final. True, I thought ZerO had it in him to go 1-3 - and if he got really lucky and made it to 2-2 I might have given him a good shot to win. But when it comes down to it, Flash is the Ultimate Weapon and the definition of achievement over the last year, while ZerO's a solid A-class Zerg who's incredibly streaky and hasn't merited a nickname better than "Prince of Queens" (which, while cool, doesn't bespeak greatness).
And in that scenario, he lost game 1 and 2 badly without doing anything seriously wrong - after that, even succumbing to nerves in game 3 doesn't deserve the epithet of "choke".
(You want a choke, let's talk about another recent 0-3 final where the loser was favored... fffuuuu Dinotoss!)
Yeah, I intentionally didn't mention a certain progamer of the dinosauria variety. That was way worse.
Zero won that game against Flash on Benzene by not making mutas but by making lurkers when Flash thought he was going to make mutas, i.e. Flash's BO counter failed.
In the finals however, Flash's valkonic build was a hard counter to 3 hatch muta and it basically mind-fucked Zero and lead him to play really shitty in games 2 and 3. Game 1 was a slaughter. I'm not saying that Flash didn't play well, since he played some excellent StarCraft, but he didn't really have to work very hard in games 2 and 3. He still would've won easily in the end because Zero just isn't as good as but the win was easier than it could have been. It doesn't diminish Flash's win in any way, it was just disappointing. Similarly, ZvZ finals may be disappointing but they're still just as important and impressive as all the other possible finals and dismissing them based on luck or whatever is irritating to say the least. There is some luck involved, just like there was luck involved with Flash's valkonic build but it's perfectly possible to win a ZvZ final or semi or anything based on pure skill.
Kuroshiroi, in no way is a ZvZ finals more impressive or skillful than, say, a ZvT win, or a PvZ win or a TvP win, or even the non-favorable matchups. Savior's OSL vs Nada > Savior's MSL vs Silver. Bisu's PvZ vs Savior > Bisu's PvPs vs Jangbi and Stork. Mirror matchups are by and large less impressive.
It is not perfectly possible to win a ZvZ final on pure skill. If you don't get a bad BO on a bad map then you are lucky enough to demonstrate your skill. This is just how mirrors work, and it's a massive problem with ZvZ and PvP.
TvT less so but haha like we're ever going to have a TvT finals.
This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
95% of the time? 95% of the time the better player doesn't win in broodwar EVER, in any matchup!
ZvZ is absolutely prone to luck, to a painful degree. As much as you want to say "mindgames," Zero got lucky to hit all those 9pools against Jaedong. He played well to win in spite of it, but it's true. ZvZ has always been this way and ever since Jaedong fell off his horse in JvZ, it's almost completely reverted to the previous notion of being a "luckfest." It's more intricate than people thought, but still completely luck based for the first five minutes.
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes
Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.
Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.
95% of the time? 95% of the time the better player doesn't win in broodwar EVER, in any matchup!
ZvZ is absolutely prone to luck, to a painful degree. As much as you want to say "mindgames," Zero got lucky to hit all those 9pools against Jaedong. He played well to win in spite of it, but it's true. ZvZ has always been this way and ever since Jaedong fell off his horse in JvZ, it's almost completely reverted to the previous notion of being a "luckfest." It's more intricate than people thought, but still completely luck based for the first five minutes.
Please explain hydra's success in ZvZ BO5s or JD's success in ZvZ BO5s. A superior player playing his best in a BO5 series will almost invariably win. If he loses, it's because he got really, really unlucky or he didn't actually play better than his opponent.
I don't even attribute JD's loss to Zero to luck. JD played worse in that series (my "proof" is basically his loss in the 12hatch vs. 12hatch game, a superior player is supposed to win a mirror matchup with mirror builds) and deserved to lose. Just like Hydra played better in his series against Great and JD and deserved to win.
I'm only talking about BO5 series here. BO3 series and PL games are different and more prone to luck based results.
Bo5 doesn't magically take away the luck factor from a game to game basis in ZvZ. What is Hydra's success in ZvZ Bo5s? He beat Calm, Jaedong, Great. That's great! It was one run, and 3 sets. If the better ZvZ player always won then Jaedong would always win: From this day forward, Zero is not gonna be better at ZvZ than Jaedong. I mean, he lost one of his 9pool vs 12hatch games, was Jaedong suddenly the better player and then suddenly worse in the 12 hatch mirror?
It's not just the opening build, it's how quickly your first overlord scouts your opponent, how hard you decide to drone compared to ling numbers, whether you're going to skip speed and go straight to lair or not, etc. 9pool-> Lair can very well beat 12pool 11 hatch and this expands greatly and in too much detail for me to explain -- it's why Jaedong had seemingly been immune to ZvZ luck for so long, because he realized the intricacies past "9pool>12hatch>12pool>9pool". This has sense ceased to be the case and now we see Jaedong losing ZvZ Bo5's with a, for him, alarming frequency. It's not because he's not better than his opponent: Jaedong is and always has been better than Zero and Hydra and Calm, and continues to be better than them after their starleague success.
Certain players can elevate their game, even outmicro jaedong sometimes, but the vast majority of the time ZvZ series are massively affected by build orders. The better player usually wins, that's just an extrapolation of playing more games. That doesn't stop it from being an atrocious matchup when it comes to luck vs skill compared to other matchups. And that's the point, not that the better player usually wins, but how much the better player wins relative to all other matchups. ZvZ is probably the worst at this (I find in PvP, while the opening build orders are wild and hard countery as fuck, the better players quite often fight back into it.)
I have so many things to complain about (by.Sun not in CBNC even, while a bunch of other players are there, many of whom i feel are less deserving .. for instance..).. Or that thing about Flash losing a Bo5 to JD/Hydra/Bisu/any competent player at the moment, with which i agree due to Flash current condition (not MSL-winning condition, no-training-due-to-treatment condition, which is "current").. I dont know why his fans find it so hard to understand where this point of view is coming from, cos i believe its completely legit, given the current circumstances.
Anyway, i have 10 more pages to read before i can post stuffs and be sure that they are actually relevant to the current discussions
=========== New post but dont want to double post ===========
Edit: Now that i have finished reading through all 16 pages of discussion, i feel entitled to post the rest of my opinion.
1/ Lets get the fanboyism out of the way first. Bisu. Like many other fans im am severely disappointed by his dropping out of the OSL, in fact for the next week or so i didnt go to TL or involve myself in any BW related activity. I understand that it would be difficult to fight against a Golden Mouse, so i wont go there in the first place. Imo, however, the Most-Win King in a PL Season + setting that record as the highest ever could easily make a case against JD n Hydra, both dropping out in MSL Ro4? Im not saying that Most-PL-win-a-season-ever is more important than a SL win, but it is (not very) arguably more difficult.. Many of you talk "achievement" but why talk only of SL Ro4, but not unprecedented PL records? Imo Bisu has a strong case vs JD and Hydra.
2/ Yea my only other beef is by.Sun should get at least CBNC, he did play a good month imo, arguably better than the likes of Roro
On July 08 2011 02:32 ffreakk wrote: Fk, i should have read PR this month sooner
I have so many things to complain about (by.Sun not in CBNC even, while a bunch of other players are there, many of whom i feel are less deserving .. for instance..).. Or that thing about Flash losing a Bo5 to JD/Hydra/Bisu/any competent player at the moment, with which i agree due to Flash current condition (not MSL-winning condition, no-training-due-to-treatment condition, which is "current").. I dont know why his fans find it so hard to understand where this point of view is coming from, cos i believe its completely legit, given the current circumstances.
Anyway, i have 10 more pages to read before i can post stuffs and be sure that they are actually relevant to the current discussions
Do you legitimately think Flash's wrist just suddenly got worse after the MSL? Flash won that MSL on preparation first, execution second. And still qualified for OSL despite "awful" condition. It stands to reason that when Flash knows who he is playing, he is similarly as dangerous as he has always been. On top of that, he had a pretty tough PL schedule in that losing streak.
Edit: Now that i have finished reading through all 16 pages of discussion, i feel entitled to post the rest of my opinion.
1/ Lets get the fanboyism out of the way first. Bisu. Like many other fans im am severely disappointed by his dropping out of the OSL, in fact for the next week or so i didnt go to TL or involve myself in any BW related activity. I understand that it would be difficult to fight against a Golden Mouse, so i wont go there in the first place. Imo, however, the Most-Win King in a PL Season + setting that record as the highest ever could easily make a case against JD n Hydra, both dropping out in MSL Ro4? Im not saying that Most-PL-win-a-season-ever is more important than a SL win, but it is (not very) arguably more difficult.. Many of you talk "achievement" but why talk only of SL Ro4, but not unprecedented PL records? Imo Bisu has a strong case vs JD and Hydra.
2/ Yea my only other beef is by.Sun should get at least CBNC, he did play a good month imo, arguably better than the likes of Roro
We've gone over this again. Bisu's PL win king thing goes back nine months of play. If you want to go back that far then Flash has like 3 star league wins under his belt AND 2nd place in PL. Does that count for nothing? Bisu was judged for this month, and was judge harshly for dropping out of OSL. Jaedong got into OSL and ran deep into MSL, as well as put up good PL numbers at the end of the month.
Hydra and Bisu are a tossup. Hydra has been very good in PL this month and did make another Ro4 berth and, once again, qualified for OSL. While Bisu has undoubtedly outperformed everyone this month above him in PL, he underperformed them in OSL, and didn't have the deep berth of the MSL backing him. Hell, he even made it over Zero, the silver winner, because his PL results weren't good enough. The fact that Bisu is getting more credit than a MSL Silver winner is token enough for his PL dominance.
Why do you count Jaedong and Hydra's past achievement but not Bisu's (note: i havnt even touched Flash in my previous post, stating "its difficult to fight a Golden Mouse", i dont know why you are defending him).
Jaedong and Hydra didnt make it to the Ro4 this month, they made it there last month.. As far as this month goes, all they did were losing and thus dropping out of the MSL (for Hydra, in a rather embarassing fashion to boot, more so than Bisu dropping out of the Group of Death to Flash 2-0).
Im not even saying that hes definitely on top, im saying that we have a case to fight (discuss/argue) for. I tried to put that point in as little a _definitive_ tone as i could. In fact, Zero too had a VERY solid month of PL, dropping only 1 game, and hey, he made it to the Finals, something that Hydra or Jaedong cant say the same about.
Sure he lost the ODT prelims, but the reason Jaedong and Hydra werent there was because they are seeded, due to their doing well last OSL.
Lastly, i legitimately believe that Flash would lose right now, in a Bo5. During the MSL, he practised, he said it himself. Now, he isnt (we all know why, no discredit to him), and dropped 5 games in a row to scrubs in PL. Im not saying he shouldnt be number 1, but i am saying that i think his current condition is bad, and it wont improve until his wrist does, and he can commit himself to practising and regaining his skills again.
If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.
Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.
On July 08 2011 05:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.
Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.
You don't know what to tell him because there isn't anything to tell him. In your mind SL performance over previous months counts and PL performance does not. It is that simple. Also the Ro4 Results in question are LOSSES. You're talking about Ro8 results.
As for Flash being favoured over everyone except Jaedong you can make the same argument that Bisu is favoured over everyone except Flash. Can you make the same argument for Jaedong and Hydra?
On July 08 2011 02:32 ffreakk wrote: Fk, i should have read PR this month sooner
I have so many things to complain about (by.Sun not in CBNC even, while a bunch of other players are there, many of whom i feel are less deserving .. for instance..).. Or that thing about Flash losing a Bo5 to JD/Hydra/Bisu/any competent player at the moment, with which i agree due to Flash current condition (not MSL-winning condition, no-training-due-to-treatment condition, which is "current").. I dont know why his fans find it so hard to understand where this point of view is coming from, cos i believe its completely legit, given the current circumstances.
Anyway, i have 10 more pages to read before i can post stuffs and be sure that they are actually relevant to the current discussions
=========== New post but dont want to double post ===========
Edit: Now that i have finished reading through all 16 pages of discussion, i feel entitled to post the rest of my opinion.
1/ Lets get the fanboyism out of the way first. Bisu. Like many other fans im am severely disappointed by his dropping out of the OSL, in fact for the next week or so i didnt go to TL or involve myself in any BW related activity. I understand that it would be difficult to fight against a Golden Mouse, so i wont go there in the first place. Imo, however, the Most-Win King in a PL Season + setting that record as the highest ever could easily make a case against JD n Hydra, both dropping out in MSL Ro4? Im not saying that Most-PL-win-a-season-ever is more important than a SL win, but it is (not very) arguably more difficult.. Many of you talk "achievement" but why talk only of SL Ro4, but not unprecedented PL records? Imo Bisu has a strong case vs JD and Hydra.
2/ Yea my only other beef is by.Sun should get at least CBNC, he did play a good month imo, arguably better than the likes of Roro
It doesn't matter how well someone would do in a BO5 at this very second. That's not how BO5's work. You know who you're going to play, and you prepare for it. Flash's preparation is unparalleled, and Bisu would get absolutely stomped by him. Flash hasn't lost a BOX against protoss since 2009, and he's only ever lost one BO5, which was against Stork in 2007.
On July 08 2011 05:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.
Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.
You don't know what to tell him because there isn't anything to tell him. In your mind SL performance over previous months counts and PL performance does not. It is that simple. Also the Ro4 Results in question are LOSSES. You're talking about Ro8 results.
As for Flash being favoured over everyone except Jaedong you can make the same argument that Bisu is favoured over everyone except Flash. Can you make the same argument for Jaedong and Hydra?
Jaedong is the best player in the world right now.
I do account for proleague. I also account for failing in prelims. This can never, and will never be said enough. It is absolutely unfathomable that Bisu should lose to Hyvaa unless he played like Jaedong in his ZvP prime -- and he didn't. He played pretty well, and Bisu played uninspired, and that lack of inspiration and focus is why I don't think he'll win another starleague unless every map is katrina. And that's a fucking shame, because I also think he might be the most mechanically clean player to ever play.
All I hope is jaedong doesn't do what he did in the MSL, dominate his group, then goes through the rest of the rounds looking shaky as hell xD. If he can keep this momentum and win the OSL that would be so boss :D
On July 08 2011 05:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.
Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.
You don't know what to tell him because there isn't anything to tell him. In your mind SL performance over previous months counts and PL performance does not. It is that simple. Also the Ro4 Results in question are LOSSES. You're talking about Ro8 results.
As for Flash being favoured over everyone except Jaedong you can make the same argument that Bisu is favoured over everyone except Flash. Can you make the same argument for Jaedong and Hydra?
Jaedong is the best player in the world right now.
I do account for proleague. I also account for failing in prelims. This can never, and will never be said enough. It is absolutely unfathomable that Bisu should lose to Hyvaa unless he played like Jaedong in his ZvP prime -- and he didn't. He played pretty well, and Bisu played uninspired, and that lack of inspiration and focus is why I don't think he'll win another starleague unless every map is katrina. And that's a fucking shame, because I also think he might be the most mechanically clean player to ever play.
I disagree with the bolded line.
Sure Jaedong had that 8-game-win-streak, but lets not for get that he fell into the longest losing streak in his entire career earlier this month. He defeated Flash twice, but Flash during that period was looking vulnerable (for obvious reason) and was losing to every other scrubs, so i dont feel that his two wins over Flash this month has as much weightage as it sounds (iirc, Flash said himself that he didnt prepare much for that ODT group stage).
Whether Bisu's play vs Hyvaa was uninspired, i guess its a matter of opinion, since i clearly didnt feel that way. Also, in my opinion, Hyvaa played better than both Bogus n Hyun did in their ODT. Bisu lost 1-2 to Hyvaa, Jaedong 2-0 his group. You dont have to agree with me, but i dont give enough credit to Jaedong's 2-0 to overcome the 5-loss-streak he had at the beginning of the month.
Edit: Also, given how close competition was, Jaedong's failure to perform at the beginning of the month was one of the major reasons his team failed to qualify for the play-offs. Does this affect PR? Or it doesnt? :3
I would like to point out again that Zero and Hydra had an almost identical month, as far as PL goes.
Zero lost in the Finals, Hydra dropped out at Ro4. Zero dropped out in the ODT, Hydra didnt play.
Imo Zero should be placed above, since the result of early stages of SLs shouldnt matter as much as making it to the Finals of the other Starleague anw.
Edit: And of course, <3 the "cleanest mechanics ever" comment <3
On July 08 2011 05:33 TwoToneTerran wrote: If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.
Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.
You don't know what to tell him because there isn't anything to tell him. In your mind SL performance over previous months counts and PL performance does not. It is that simple. Also the Ro4 Results in question are LOSSES. You're talking about Ro8 results.
As for Flash being favoured over everyone except Jaedong you can make the same argument that Bisu is favoured over everyone except Flash. Can you make the same argument for Jaedong and Hydra?
Jaedong is the best player in the world right now.
I do account for proleague. I also account for failing in prelims. This can never, and will never be said enough. It is absolutely unfathomable that Bisu should lose to Hyvaa unless he played like Jaedong in his ZvP prime -- and he didn't. He played pretty well, and Bisu played uninspired, and that lack of inspiration and focus is why I don't think he'll win another starleague unless every map is katrina. And that's a fucking shame, because I also think he might be the most mechanically clean player to ever play.
I disagree with the bolded line.
Sure Jaedong had that 8-game-win-streak, but lets not for get that he fell into the longest losing streak in his entire career earlier this month. He defeated Flash twice, but Flash during that period was looking vulnerable (for obvious reason) and was losing to every other scrubs, so i dont feel that his two wins over Flash this month has as much weightage as it sounds (iirc, Flash said himself that he didnt prepare much for that ODT group stage).
Whether Bisu's play vs Hyvaa was uninspired, i guess its a matter of opinion, since i clearly didnt feel that way. Also, in my opinion, Hyvaa played better than both Bogus n Hyun did in their ODT. Bisu lost 1-2 to Hyvaa, Jaedong 2-0 his group. You dont have to agree with me, but i dont give enough credit to Jaedong's 2-0 to overcome the 5-loss-streak he had at the beginning of the month.
I would like to point out again that Zero and Hydra had an almost identical month, as far as PL goes.
Zero lost in the Finals, Hydra dropped out at Ro4. Zero dropped out in the ODT, Hydra didnt play.
Imo Zero should be placed above, since the result of early stages of SLs shouldnt matter as much as making it to the Finals of the other Starleague anw.
He didn't "have that 8-game-win-streak;" he's on a 9 game win streak right now. Personally, I'd still put Flash as the clear favourite in any BO5, regardless of injury.
Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.
On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote: Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.
Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps.
On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote: Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.
Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps.
Bisu's WL performance this year argues against that last point.
I'm not saying that Flash and Jaedong are necessarily worse in the abstract. Healthy Flash is far and away my choice to win "a game" any time any where etc. But at the moment Flash isn't healthy and is losing one-offs. As far as Jaedong goes, for the past two or three years he has consistently come off worst in winning percentage in Proleague among Taek-LeeSsang. This is of course partly attributable to the fact that OZ's good players are Jaedong, Jaedong, and occasionally Killer or HiyA, as well as Jaedong (KT's not much better but Stats is solid and last year they had Violet as well, the year before that Luxury, as a threat, which helped Flash. T1 of course can send fantasy or BeSt (while he plays the same race as Bisu, his style's very different) out as necessary, and for the past two seasons they've managed to keep at least once Zerg playing reasonably well most of the time), but that doesn't entirely cover it. I don't think.
In fact, Bisu's problems in series play are all indicative that he doesn't prep as well for a known map/opponent as other S- and A-class players, and that his strength is almost all mechanics and game sense.
On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote: Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.
Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps.
Bisu's WL performance this year argues against that last point.
I'm not saying that Flash and Jaedong are necessarily worse in the abstract. Healthy Flash is far and away my choice to win "a game" any time any where etc. But at the moment Flash isn't healthy and is losing one-offs. As far as Jaedong goes, for the past two or three years he has consistently come off worst in winning percentage in Proleague among Taek-LeeSsang. This is of course partly attributable to the fact that OZ's good players are Jaedong, Jaedong, and occasionally Killer or HiyA, as well as Jaedong (KT's not much better but Stats is solid and last year they had Violet as well, the year before that Luxury, as a threat, which helped Flash. T1 of course can send fantasy or BeSt (while he plays the same race as Bisu, his style's very different) out as necessary, and for the past two seasons they've managed to keep at least once Zerg playing reasonably well most of the time), but that doesn't entirely cover it. I don't think.
In fact, Bisu's problems in series play are all indicative that he doesn't prep as well for a known map/opponent as other S- and A-class players, and that his strength is almost all mechanics and game sense.
A lot of valid points, but bisu's gamesense and adaptability is DEFINITELY subpar to Flash and Jaedong. Most of bisu's wins are against bad opponents. His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses.
There has literally only been one game in the entire season that I can remember where I thought ''Damn, nice preparation Bisu'' and that was when he stomped Flash in the WL final when he used a special build designed specifically against his opponent. Other than that almost all his games are him relying on his ability to outplay his opponent. He's kind of like Flash before Flash's God-era began. It works like a charm vs all the bad opponents, it works like a charm in PL, but in the Starleagues it just doesn't cut it. Why didn't he bring out something new and fancy vs Flash in MSL as well?
I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
No, it isn't invented just to keep Bisu down, if that's what you're saying. Remember the month Flash was moved off the PR completely? Ya, that was after the month the PL season ended, a PL season in which Flash won the ''Most wins''-award. Funny, eh?
The PL record simply doesn't matter that much in the end when determining the PR. The difference between Flash+JD and Bisu isn't shown in their PL records, it's shown in the individual leagues.
On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote: I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League.
Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week.
On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote: I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League.
Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week.
So we dont consider Winner's League now? Why dont we just dont count the games Bisu won altogether, and only his losses, his record would then look terrible.
His win-rate as well as win-count this season is simply better than Flash's the last time he set the most-win record in PL. Someone else (with a Goliath icon) gave the stats the last time :p. Im not even trying to overplay the importance of this. Im just saying that i find that achievement > Ro4 MSL. If you disagree, do tell.
On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote: I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League.
Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week.
So we dont consider Winner's League now? Why dont we just dont count the games Bisu won altogether, and only his losses, his record would then look terrible.
His win-rate as well as win-count this season is simply better than Flash's the last time he set the most-win record in PL. Someone else (with a Goliath icon) gave the stats the last time :p. Im not even trying to overplay the importance of this. Im just saying that i find that achievement > Ro4 MSL. If you disagree, do tell.
Just about everyone disagrees except perhaps vampyr.
On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote: Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.
Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps.
Bisu's WL performance this year argues against that last point.
I'm not saying that Flash and Jaedong are necessarily worse in the abstract. Healthy Flash is far and away my choice to win "a game" any time any where etc. But at the moment Flash isn't healthy and is losing one-offs. As far as Jaedong goes, for the past two or three years he has consistently come off worst in winning percentage in Proleague among Taek-LeeSsang. This is of course partly attributable to the fact that OZ's good players are Jaedong, Jaedong, and occasionally Killer or HiyA, as well as Jaedong (KT's not much better but Stats is solid and last year they had Violet as well, the year before that Luxury, as a threat, which helped Flash. T1 of course can send fantasy or BeSt (while he plays the same race as Bisu, his style's very different) out as necessary, and for the past two seasons they've managed to keep at least once Zerg playing reasonably well most of the time), but that doesn't entirely cover it. I don't think.
In fact, Bisu's problems in series play are all indicative that he doesn't prep as well for a known map/opponent as other S- and A-class players, and that his strength is almost all mechanics and game sense.
A lot of valid points, but bisu's gamesense and adaptability is DEFINITELY subpar to Flash and Jaedong. Most of bisu's wins are against bad opponents. His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses.
Basically any difference you want to make between these three in terms of Proleague performance is trivial. Mainly they only lose to other good players. Each has a very few "bad" losses in terms of opponents' caliber, but when you look at it - Bisu vs RorO, Flash vs Shuttle, Jaedong vs s2 all come to mind - the worse player showed phenomenally good play in the actual game on that day.
Now examine in terms of opponents.
Bisu: 2-0 vs BaBy, 2-0 vs Bogus, 3-0 vs Calm, 1-1 vs Flash, 1-1 vs free, 3-0 vs great, 4-1 vs Jaedong, 2-0 vs Soulkey, 2-0 vs Sea, etc.
Obviously we can do the same for Jaedong or Flash. I'm not going to say it's a completely settled question, but at the moment, given Bisu's better winning percentage over more games vs similar opponents in proleague play, not to mention Jaedong's and Flash's recent struggles (though JD seems past his and Flash's has to be at least partly medical), I think my claim that Bisu's the best player in a one-off game is, to say the least, very plausible.
Your claim that, "His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses," is true for every top-tier player - every player, even - with the exception of a very few (sAviOr, fantasy, maybe Calm) who rely less on pure mechanics and more on strategy to win. And even those players will still lose if "things don't go his way". The only exception I can think of from my own watching is Flash's TvT about a year ago, and occasionally the pinnacle of JvZ, and even there there's always some hidden something that Flash or Jaedong made "go his way" in order to get the win.
(All that said, I am in no way claiming Bisu is currently anywhere near Flash or JD in series play. He's not even in shouting distance of fantasy or Stork or Hydra atm.)
I am saying that its easy to get the "Most Wins Record" and completely crush past results considering there are two rounds of Winner's League played instead of just one. I think its an awful thing to base an argument on since whoever gets the "Most Wins Record" will absolutely demolish Winner's League and that completely depends on who gets sent out, who doesn't, and whether or not your team performs well. Stats absolutely demolished Winner's League, in fact he was the 4th best performing player in the league, and probably took a lot of games from Flash.
Then you can go start a slippery slope argument and say "Oh but sometimes they might not play in standard proleague are you going to take into account games where XXX didn't play?" but the fact is that you can only play twice at most in standard proleague (and with KT/OZ, they probably don't even get to the 7th game half of the time) and not up to 4 times in Winner's League.
His win rate isn't significantly better than Flash's record, especially in Winner's League. Jaedong is far worse but its still a strong record and he actually gets deep into individual leagues constantly. Bisu is solely proleague, and probably the luckiest player because other teams have to worry about everyone else on SKT and not just him, but he can't even get past the preliminaries and has years of history suggesting that he's awful at individual leagues.
So yes, having a good proleague record and extremely good individual league record (in the case of Jaedong) is more important than having the most wins in proleague and being utter rubbish at individual leagues. Bisu is no Bo Jackson, unlike the other two guys, so to speak. He's not even as good as 08-09 Flash because at least Flash destroyed proleague and performed like an in-form Sea in individual leagues.
Yellow getting the pity 2nd rank? How can I take these ranking seriously if you do that? I've always though that this list was based more off of feeling then merit and this only makes me feel stronger about that.
On July 08 2011 14:30 Traumatizer wrote: Yellow getting the pity 2nd rank? How can I take these ranking seriously if you do that? I've always though that this list was based more off of feeling then merit and this only makes me feel stronger about that.
It's just a tribute...there's a huge difference between earnestly trying to rank the players and honoring a legend. Don't take anything away from the staff because of something like this-- do it when there is an actual discrepancy.
On July 08 2011 15:04 GolemMadness wrote: It's not a pity rank; it's a nod towards one of the most beloved and famous progamers of all time who's leaving the scene. Why would you care?
Yeah but N2 as a tribute really is a bit confusing.I would have been happier with n1 or nothing.
Having Yellow ranked number 2 is a tribute to the original and ultimate Kong. Having Yellow as number 1 would make no sense
On July 08 2011 13:10 Womwomwom wrote: I am saying that its easy to get the "Most Wins Record" and completely crush past results considering there are two rounds of Winner's League played instead of just one. I think its an awful thing to base an argument on since whoever gets the "Most Wins Record" will absolutely demolish Winner's League and that completely depends on who gets sent out, who doesn't, and whether or not your team performs well. Stats absolutely demolished Winner's League, in fact he was the 4th best performing player in the league, and probably took a lot of games from Flash.
This argument is and always has been complete bullshit.
When Bisu surpassed Flash's most-wins record (57) Bisu had played LESS games than Flash had. In the same amount of games as Flash had played when he set the record Bisu recorded 59 wins.
Yes Bisu has played more games NOW. But this was not the case when he surpassed Flash. His winrate was higher then and remained higher all the way until the end.
The argument that Bisu having more games to play makes his PL record less legitimate is complete and utter bullshit. Don't forget that each round has less games now. There's actually 1 less series in this new format. And if it's so easy to get as high as he did, why did no one else come close? The rest of your argument is not worth addressing.
That being said, I hope Bisu doesn't disappoint as bad as he did by losing to someone as mediocre as Stats and letting the team get AK'd. Hopefully such a pathetic result won't happen again. Also, it would be nice if he didn't choke in the SL's. As long as OGN doesn't make us wait 6 months again, he should have a chance to prove himself again soon.
On July 09 2011 07:51 Vortok wrote: Jangbi is 24-3? Holy shitballs.
Since the beginning of May, yep. Now 26-4. ^_^
We'll see how the playoffs go over the weekend. Jangbi's easily the scariest player of the 4 teams competing right now - fortunately for Stars I think ZerO, Soulkey, Light should carry us through but I'm not counting on it just yet.
I don't understand why everyone just decided to count all the prelim games for Jangbi. I pretty much never see prelim games counted for anyone else, unless it's because someone got knocked out. Also, pretty sure that nobody would rather face Flash than Jangbi.
Actually when people talk about hotstreak records, they very often include prelims, because people often go on hotstreaks because of prelims. Funny, that.
On July 09 2011 11:39 GolemMadness wrote: I don't understand why everyone just decided to count all the prelim games for Jangbi. I pretty much never see prelim games counted for anyone else, unless it's because someone got knocked out. Also, pretty sure that nobody would rather face Flash than Jangbi.
Any time I'm counting up games, I count prelim games. After all, they are official games which are played, and are counted, and do matter: anyone who can't pass prelims isn't going to compete with the big boys. In this sense anyone counting streaks without including prelims - purely on games played terms, ignoring the league differences - is potentially not representing that whole picture.
On the other hand, the reason prelims barely matter for PR (except in the case of failure, see: YongTaek) is simple as well. Due to the seeding in Starleagues good players are never facing the best players in prelims, and this is even more true in MST prelims (32 seeds) than OSL (16 seeds).
So if I want to discuss Jangbi's record in toto, I say "26-4". And that gives a solid picture of the form he's been in. But if I'm discussing actual accomplishments - say, to justify a PR spot - I would talk about it differently. I'd say something like: "He's 9-2 in Proleague since May (over 80% winrate), passed OSL prelims and won his ODT group, passed MST prelims and won his MST group. His only losses are to Hydra, Jaedong (in a game that didn't matter), and a red-hot soO." Because of the existence of the 3-league system, that broken-down picture gives a more accurate total idea.
Still, when counting only wins and losses, which does have its place, I really think prelim games should be included. So I tend to include them, except in two cases. The first, if I'm specifically arguing on someone else's terms. The second, if I'm comparing two players, one seeded and one who's been relegated to prelims. Obviously if I want to compare Jangbi and Jaedong, the fact that Jangbi won prelims is absolutely meaningless to that comparison because Jaedong's been a semifinalist at least for the last year pretty much whereas Jangbi is only now finally climbing back into legitimate "A class" position and for all we know could drop out of it again just as quickly with a bad series loss at some point to, say, Shine or Horang2 or something.
On July 09 2011 07:51 Vortok wrote: Jangbi is 24-3? Holy shitballs.
Since the beginning of May, yep. Now 26-4. ^_^
We'll see how the playoffs go over the weekend. Jangbi's easily the scariest player of the 4 teams competing right now - fortunately for Stars I think ZerO, Soulkey, Light should carry us through but I'm not counting on it just yet.
For every protoss, no matter how good, it would just be very unfortunate to get two PvZs in a row, opponents being Zer0 and Soulkey, both above 60% ZvP. Just confirms that you just don't hand out top3 spots for people with one good month (although Jangbi is going strong since the beginning of may, still not enough after his major slump).
Jangbi still hasn't shown he can own A+ to S class zergs. (I am calling Zero A+ here, although his vP is close to S-class). And that's why he's not higher on the power rank imho.
I hope STX doesn't crap out in the first round after denying us six possible games of JvF. KT might as well lose now and prevent Flash from destroying his hands trying to lug his outmatched teammates over the top. I don't see them getting past CJ, SKT or even Stars/Khan in the next round. Flash might as well save himself for individual leagues.
Haven't been watching this past week or so, but there are reasons we don't normally talk about prelim stats.
Look at it this way: in a standard format 16 man tourney it is mathematically impossible to achieve 80% wins without winning the whole damn show. However, it IS mathematically possible to climb up through OSL prelims and then fail to even qualify for OSL while achieving 80+% (not factoring any other leagues into the equation). And that's against WEAKER competition. Every season there are a few top 20 players who have to fight their way out of prelims, but most are usually seeded directly to ODT or OSL.
To put it simply, counting prelim stats removes the meaning of the statistics. The difference in ability between SL competition and prelim competition is WORLDS APART.
Results so far this month support Jangbi's position on the PR. I do not think he is favorite against Jaedong, Zero or Hydra in a series. Regarding Flash... I think with Flash his practice time is too limited to deal with the PL environment and that his stats in TvP have dipped makes sense when you consider he was playing Terrans and Zergs in MSL and later in OSL. If Flash was told "you're playing Jangbi in 5 minutes" it's hard to say how the match would go. We haven't really seen Jangbi face a strong TvPer recently, although with Flash injured, Fantasy sucking and Hiya slumping it's hard to say exactly who could be considered "strong" at TvP. (I saw someone calling Light's TvP strong the other day and I laughed. I like Light but come on, really?!) But give Flash two weeks notice and I see no reason to doubt that Flash would roll over Jangbi like nothing. Let's see reasons before we leap to conclusions... conclusions which are always influenced by feelings as a fan/anti-fan. Regarding Bisu... I think he belongs ahead of Jangbi in the ranking quite clearly. He's been playing the prettiest Starcraft of anyone lately (and I favor consistent dominance over sudden streaks). Although simply playing pretty Starcraft is meaningless without results. Bisu's problem is that he's one dimensional. Flash and Jaedong know how to mix it up. They know how to hit you in ways you don't expect and control the flow of a series. Bisu does the same thing every time: rely on superior multitasking to spread you out, which is a good strategy he is adept at using, but it is only one strategy and it is the only strategy Bisu shows. Which is why racking up PL wins without ever achieving individual league results is not enough to convince me that he's worth #1.
Next month's ranking will be interesting due to the lack of games. Because JD is seeded into the MSL Ro32 and Oz missed the playoffs, JD only has his 3 OSL games (against mediocre Zergs) to go. So with his win over JangBi in PL, that's 4 games. Bisu will have a total between 4-6 (if we wait until after PL Finals). If KT are eliminated then Flash only has his 3 PL games remaining as well.
Not the lowest played games month ever, but still gonna make it tough.
Meh. We shouldn't be trying to re-invent the ranking every single month. Everybody potentially worthy of a rank will be playing at least SOME games, either in PL playoffs, OSL or MST. Think of the next ranking as "let's see how the games played this month change the current ranking." Which is how the ranking should be thought of to begin with.
I personally believe that Stork will be back to PR rank next month after improving immensely in his gameplay. I still don't get how Stork manages to pick up his play in such short time.
Stork is my favourite player but it's a bit early to start talking. He is 3-1 so far this month against relatively mediocre competition. We really cannot talk until his OSL group. If he beats both Flash and Hydra and has a winning record in the playoffs, then yes he should return without question. If he loses to both of them and loses he remaining playoff games, then no way. Anything inbetween would have to be reevaluated further.
On July 12 2011 04:56 Xiphos wrote: I personally believe that Stork will be back to PR rank next month after improving immensely in his gameplay. I still don't get how Stork manages to pick up his play in such short time.
On July 12 2011 04:56 Xiphos wrote: I personally believe that Stork will be back to PR rank next month after improving immensely in his gameplay. I still don't get how Stork manages to pick up his play in such short time.
Meh, I agree with darkoptik earlier in the thread. Usually when reading power rankings, there are more clearly presented facts for even someone like me, who hasn't watched much BW lately, to lean on. Instead, this PR really doesn't feel all that convincing for me.
Sure, Flash may be playing phenomenally, but from the perspective of someone who's only watched a few games, he's been dropping lots of proleague matches and has played poorly due to his wrist. There's really no attempt to disprove or at least give more reasons for me to disregard this viewpoint.
I'm not suggesting you did not put any effort into the PR or that you are wrong, but to me, this was a poorly written PR at times.
edit: It may be just how you write and how disorganized it seems, but still, like I said before, I have a hard time following your thought processes.
On July 12 2011 03:07 Mortality wrote: ...There are reasons we don't normally talk about prelim stats.
Look at it this way: in a standard format 16 man tourney it is mathematically impossible to achieve 80% wins without winning the whole damn show. However, it IS mathematically possible to climb up through OSL prelims and then fail to even qualify for OSL while achieving 80+% (not factoring any other leagues into the equation). And that's against WEAKER competition. Every season there are a few top 20 players who have to fight their way out of prelims, but most are usually seeded directly to ODT or OSL.
To put it simply, counting prelim stats removes the meaning of the statistics. The difference in ability between SL competition and prelim competition is WORLDS APART.
No one disputes that the average "A class" player should smash the average prelim group. There's something like 150 players, total, active at the moment. If the MSL only seeds 32 (to the MST/MSL), the remainder of the top third should work through groups without much trouble. And this is true In fact: prelims usually end up putting players like BeSt and Light (or whoever's decent but did badly last time around) up against B-teamers and unknowns who very rarely, if at all, win games even off terrible players like Tossgirl or Perfectman.
On the other hand, the line isn't that distinct, and "scrubs" do get into the MST/ODT, and even advance on a semi-regular basis. Run down the list of the current OSL groups. Most of the players are at least ordinarily very good "A class" players, but we've also got hyvaa, and Modesty's not just there but a seed. Then you've got thoroughly mediocre players like Hyuk, Shine, n.Die_soO, and even Killer's not that good. But they're there because it's not like the skill difference is insurmountable, either: Flash got himself knocked out of an MSL by 2nd-stringers Classic and Ssak. Kwanro made an MSL final. Oh, yeah, and Bisu - among other top players - lost in OSL prelims.
A 16-0 record is impressive - in the abstract - even if the only thing the player did was win two prelim groups, and an 0-5 record is problematic even if it just means a player somehow managed to play consecutive games against Flash, Bisu, Jaedong, ZerO, and Sea. Of course, context is everything when interpreting the data. If Hydra's the first player* and Wooki's the second, Hydra might even move up on the PR and Wooki won't even - unless they were really good games - make CBNC. If Wooki's the first player and Hydra's the second, Wooki might (but probably won't, depending on his opponents) make CBNC, while Hydra will drop some but probably stays on the PR.
But what I don't understand is the tendency to ignore parts of the data. These prelim games happen. They count. Obviously, they count differently than games in other competitions - like Proleague - or game in other rounds or SL play. But that's not a reason to not count them: even two apparently comparable results can "mean" very different things. RorO beating Bisu, for instance, is on an entirely different level, for both players, than ZerO beating Jangbi. The first is totally unexpected: the second would be the expected result even if Jangbi was playing near his peak, and in point of fact Jangbi went for a risky strategy that blew up in his face (which in turn means I worry less about that loss than if he had lost a standard PvT to, say, Really). (And if we want to get really fancy, the loss to RorO meant nothing to SKT, while the loss to ZerO played a critical roll in forcing a playoff series to a third day - but in the end Bisu and Jangbi both lost. Context's important, but it's also possible to drag in so much "context" you obscure the basic facts.)
Sure: in the grand scheme of things Starleague prelims, like (American) football garbage time, tend to mean very little and become notable only in case of spectacular failure. But they don't mean nothing. If Bisu losing prelims is enough to seriously discredit his play - the way, say, losing an off-race showmatch isn't - then winning prelim games has to mean something, and winning them decisively means something too. If he has to play prelims, I expect Sea to go through 6-0 (or 8-0, etc.) or maybe drop 1 game at some point to a cute cheese, whereas even if, say, Juni manages to advance I expect him to have somehow scraped through 6-3 (or whatever).
*Obviously I realize Hydra is liable to remain a dual seed for quite a while in reality, but this is hypothetical.
On July 12 2011 04:56 Xiphos wrote: I personally believe that Stork will be back to PR rank next month after improving immensely in his gameplay. I still don't get how Stork manages to pick up his play in such short time.
@VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
I'm well aware of his record. I've been watching him for his whole career and this is the best his TvP has been since 2007. He's improved a lot, but if you actually consider his TvP "strong" right now then you haven't been watching his games. His TvP has elevated to the status of "okay." But let's just say... beating Light's TvP is not a strong piece of evidence for having S-class PvT.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I'm sure everyone that comes out on top after prelims have excellent records.
It's a bit unfair then just to consider Jangbi with having +15 wins.
Also, what about those that are seeded into other rounds that don't have to go through this prelim phase? It's not exactly a level comparison then is it?
Furthermore, as stated earlier, the people in the prelims aren't all what you'd call cream of the crop. They even contain those people from the mystarleague show (none of whome could win a single game during the prelims).
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. Or maybe I wrote it poorly. And I don't have a lot of time right now for my usual wall of text responses so if you were expecting something lengthy then I don't know what to say.
No game you play is ever totally meaningless, as much as you may want to delude yourself that fooling around with your friends is, it isn't. Even ICCup games are not totally meaningless for a progamer. ICCup games don't interest us because they don't tell us enough.
Prelim games are obviously light years beyond any ICCup match. Do you think I do not realize that? But like ICCup games they don't tell us enough. You might have an odd match, like Jangbi's wildcard win over Zero, that actually carries some significance, but the reality is that prelim events are not played at the highest level.
We might be able to dissect individual games played during prelims. We might be able to talk about particular matches (e.g., Jangbi vs Soo, Jangbi vs Zero, Jangbi vs Leta). What we cannot do is just toss out numbers like that for hype when they don't necessarily mean anything. As TwoToneTerran pointed out -- and is true -- a lot of hot streaks seem to start at the prelims. Except most of them go nowhere.
60% wins in "standard leagues" means infinitely more than 80% wins in prelims. It just does. You can never make a Starleague and have 80% prelim results. We don't count prelims towards ELO, we don't hype players up based on prelim stats. You cannot compare Jangbi's 26-4 run or whatever the fuck it is to Flash/Jaedong/Bisu etc. posting the same kind of numbers in standard leagues.
We had a few meaningful results last month, but the real trials for Jangbi are all happening this month. His performance against Jaedong was a good accomplishment and that 0-1 on paper result is as much OR MORE of an accomplishment than that 26-4.
I like talking about progamer statistics, but FFS all this talk around Jangbi is totally removing any and all meaning of the stats. You're supposed to interpret what the statistics mean, not just grab a bunch of numbers and chuck them at people and hope that those people are uninformed enough to think the numbers mean something that they don't.
BTW the real punishment for Bisu was that he didn't prove anything last month. The best player he beat was a slumping Hiya who is not doing well right now at all. He outplayed most of his opponents, but we expected a top 5 PR player to outplay them. All of them. He got outplayed twice, and that happens even to the best. He couldn't be #1 but he was clearly top 4. Why he got 4 (I'm not counting Yellow btw since that rank is a tribute to a great man) instead of 2 or 3 is because Bisu shows execution abilities that are as good or better than anybody else on the planet, but most fans these days seem to forget that execution isn't everything. The fact is that Bisu was ranked ahead of an MSL finalist, last season's semifinalist, a player who has been winning about 2/3 his matches against TBLS so far this year (that player is Zero). Acting like Bisu has been wronged does injustice to Zero who is even lower, and it does injustice to Flash, JD, and Hydra who have also done great things.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. Or maybe I wrote it poorly. And I don't have a lot of time right now for my usual wall of text responses so if you were expecting something lengthy then I don't know what to say.
No game you play is ever totally meaningless, as much as you may want to delude yourself that fooling around with your friends is, it isn't. Even ICCup games are not totally meaningless for a progamer. ICCup games don't interest us because they don't tell us enough.
Prelim games are obviously light years beyond any ICCup match. Do you think I do not realize that? But like ICCup games they don't tell us enough. You might have an odd match, like Jangbi's wildcard win over Zero, that actually carries some significance, but the reality is that prelim events are not played at the highest level.
Yes, I think you worded that poorly, although I might have fallen into a trap here:
@VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we?
I guess what you were trying to say is that iccup games are not meaningless for progamers? And I understood that you do think they are meaningless (which is my take, btw, besides the obvious value as a training-game). I am sorry, but as a non-native speaker, it is sometimes hard to get the meaning of a double negation (=> 'We don't need no education', 'I don't need no help'... 'I could care less' and 'I could not care less' basically meaning the same thing, etc.)
Anyway, I think it is just wrong to bring up ICCup games (even as an example) into a discussion about preliminariy games... too many A and A+ players have fallen during those prelims in the past to say they are totally meaningless.
Everything else you say I agree with, they skew stats and you cannot just go ahead and write "26-4". But advancing is still an accomplishment in itself in my book, you may think otherwise.
It is an accomplishment, but I think it was baubo who said these words first and I support them fully: with prelims it's more like check if they passed, x if they didn't, rather than considering the stats coming out of them. As I said, you can look at individual games, but just throwing out the stats? No. It's misleading. Prelims are prelims, not the highest level, not the main show.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
I'm well aware of his record. I've been watching him for his whole career and this is the best his TvP has been since 2007. He's improved a lot, but if you actually consider his TvP "strong" right now then you haven't been watching his games. His TvP has elevated to the status of "okay." But let's just say... beating Light's TvP is not a strong piece of evidence for having S-class PvT.
Light's TvP may never look pretty, but his record recently speaks for itself. He's finally gotten over the TvP hump that has plagued him forever, with wins over Stork, Stats, and Shuttle (Who has a 2-1 record vs FlaSh recently no?).
Didn't I already say I'm aware? I'm happy that he's finally developed a TvP that can win, but would you honestly consider Light's TvP to be high A-class or S-class? Do you think it compares to in form Flash, Fanta or Hiya?
Here's a fact to consider: after all Light has done, his TvP ELO is still only 2038. Now, honestly I think that low balls him (he's playing like he deserves about 2080-2100, same range as Mind, Baby, FBH), but if all that he's done has only been enough to put him up to a meager 2038 are you really going to put him up with those guys?
Rofl... was soo on the rank? I didn't even notice that when I read the pr the first time. I generally don't like it when people correct the rank with new results, but Bogus should have had Soo's rank. Soo is terrible. soo, soo bad.
I have not seen any games now in more than a week, but I should say that there is some super reactionary thinking going on.
Jangbi hype at the end of last month was ridiculous. But thinking now that he sucks because he got 0-3'd in playoffs and is 0-1 in OSL is another extreme. Twice he played Zero, who is amazing at ZvP (dare I say S-class?), my understanding is that Soulkey cheesed him, and for all that Calm has been in Clam mode for... pretty much a year now?... the thing about Calm is that he's a very strategic player who is good at preparing but is just not as sharp at fundamentals as other top Zergs, which is why he continues producing decent SL results even while sucking in PL.
Soo I warned about, not necessarily to keep off the ranking, but not to jump too hard on that bandwagon. Soo doesn't "suck." He is a one match wonder. His ZvP is very strong. But that's it. That's all there is to Soo: ZvP.
This is why people who just blindly throw at last month's stats and say "that's the PR right there" are delusional. The PR should always be taken in the context of results. I have always said this. People on the extreme end who want to ignore results entirely are missing the meaning of the word competition. But people who only consider the raw numbers without taking into account context
I'm perfectly happy with Jangbi's spot last month. His results last month were not so great as to be worthy of more and his results so far this month have not invalidated such a high rank. Soo's rank maybe was too high, but I won't complain too much because I'm not totally against the idea of snipers making it on the ranking. The argument against Soo is that he hasn't accomplished enough in his position as a sniper to be worthy of such a huge bone.
On July 13 2011 22:01 Mortality wrote: I have not seen any games now in more than a week, but I should say that there is some super reactionary thinking going on.
Jangbi hype at the end of last month was ridiculous. But thinking now that he sucks because he got 0-3'd in playoffs and is 0-1 in OSL is another extreme. Twice he played Zero, who is amazing at ZvP (dare I say S-class?), my understanding is that Soulkey cheesed him, and for all that Calm has been in Clam mode for... pretty much a year now?... the thing about Calm is that he's a very strategic player who is good at preparing but is just not as sharp at fundamentals as other top Zergs, which is why he continues producing decent SL results even while sucking in PL.
Soo I warned about, not necessarily to keep off the ranking, but not to jump too hard on that bandwagon. Soo doesn't "suck." He is a one match wonder. His ZvP is very strong. But that's it. That's all there is to Soo: ZvP.
This is why people who just blindly throw at last month's stats and say "that's the PR right there" are delusional. The PR should always be taken in the context of results. I have always said this. People on the extreme end who want to ignore results entirely are missing the meaning of the word competition. But people who only consider the raw numbers without taking into account context
I'm perfectly happy with Jangbi's spot last month. His results last month were not so great as to be worthy of more and his results so far this month have not invalidated such a high rank. Soo's rank maybe was too high, but I won't complain too much because I'm not totally against the idea of snipers making it on the ranking. The argument against Soo is that he hasn't accomplished enough in his position as a sniper to be worthy of such a huge bone.
On June 18 2011 06:48 Elroi wrote: I have to question what we really know about how good pros are. In April when Jaedong was a lock for #1 on PR and people were discussing if his zvt was the best of all times he said himself that he was in the worst form of his life. Then he drops a couple of games - mostly in zvz - and people think he should drop out entirely. Then he wins a strong game again and people think he is very good.... Maybe we are just clueless lol.
Sadly I think most of us understand very little of what is really going on when the pros are playing. Probably less than we think. This makes us prone to reactionary thinking.
There are things we don't know about how good pros are, but I don't think it's so much of a mystery as all that. Even if you didn't understand anything and just paid attention to TLPD all day long and use a little common sense (e.g. a prelim group should not be viewed the same way as a SL final) you should easily be able to see how much bullshit goes around out there. Now, if all you do is pay attention to TLPD then you might be inclined to believe some things that are totally wrong, you will definitely misjudge some things, but even so.
I think what it comes down to is either one of two things, or possibly a combination of both. One possibility is that posters are such short term thinkers that they've pretty much already forgotten what happened last week. Perhaps because they are more casual fans or perhaps because they are ADHD. And they assume everyone else is the same way and don't see the problem with what they are doing. The second possibility is a problem more endemic in western society. They read a handful of statements that jive with what they WANT to believe as true and that filtered version of "the news" becomes the basis of a belief (with all the conviction of a religious zealot) and instead of continuing to acquire data and reflect on possibility. No doubt a hundred people who hate my guts will accuse me of being like that too. To a degree everyone is guilty of this sometimes (not enough time to compile and analyze all data), but it's this superficiality in our society that causes us to spend 30 minuts on an hour long news program discussing where Barrack Obama likes to eat pizza instead of discussing the details of policy.
I normally defend the ranking, sometimes even when I don't entirely agree. It's never going to be perfect anyway and I don't want to see it get changed to satisfy reactionary idiocy. I get accused of many things, being fanboy of player A in the spotlight or a hater of player B who is not in the spotlight and as heartless as a tax collector. I don't really care if I'm the enemy because I have an academic as well as personal interest -- or perhaps it would be more correct to say that a large part of my personal interest is academic.
Jangbi hype at the end of last month was ridiculous. But thinking now that he sucks because he got 0-3'd in playoffs and is 0-1 in OSL is another extreme. Twice he played Zero, who is amazing at ZvP (dare I say S-class?), my understanding is that Soulkey cheesed him
Nice ranking flamewheel. Great tribute to YellOw ^_^.
I just read/scanned through this entire PR thread. The first 10 or so pages of comments made my head hurt. -_- Got easier to read at the end, at least.
I do wonder how Jangbi is gonna be ranked after this month. 0-3 in playoffs is .... ehh.... but the losses were to ZerO and SK, so I dunno
Jangbi hype at the end of last month was ridiculous. But thinking now that he sucks because he got 0-3'd in playoffs and is 0-1 in OSL is another extreme. Twice he played Zero, who is amazing at ZvP (dare I say S-class?), my understanding is that Soulkey cheesed him
double hydra den is not cheese
Yeah, see, he scouted that his opponent was a protoss in the pregame lobby and just responded reasonably to the information. Clearly too reactionary to be cheese!
JangBi is a combined 0-5 this month in PL and OSL, true. But a Protoss going 0-5 against ZerO, Jaedong, Soulkey, and Calm is not shameful. He made several questionable errors in the games, but overall we still have to wait and see how he handles Baby and Killer. Though unless he pulls out some magic I'm not sure if he has a chance of retaining a spot on next month's ranking.
I'm still praying that Stork 3-0s his group and returns in the PR. Dear gods of Broodwar, grant Stork his dino toss powers. Thank you.
On July 14 2011 07:56 Crisium wrote: JangBi is a combined 0-5 this month in PL and OSL, true. But a Protoss going 0-5 against ZerO, Jaedong, Soulkey, and Calm is not shameful. He made several questionable errors in the games, but overall we still have to wait and see how he handles Baby and Killer. Though unless he pulls out some magic I'm not sure if he has a chance of retaining a spot on next month's ranking.
I'm still praying that Stork 3-0s his group and returns in the PR. Dear gods of Broodwar, grant Stork his dino toss powers. Thank you.
would also like to point out the he got hydra busted by calm and soulkey and that zero had an incredible drop cheese prepared
Jangbi is still a good player who didn't suddenly play bad this month. This is probably the most forgivable 0-5 I've ever seen, but you can't put him on the next PR if he keeps this up. At some point you have to be criticized for always losing to cheese.
On July 13 2011 22:01 Mortality wrote: Twice he played Zero, who is amazing at ZvP (dare I say S-class?)
if Zero is not S class at ZvP then who is? Jaedong has not been doing as well as him for a few months now, Hydra is probably just as good but I don't really find him superior to zero
On July 14 2011 07:56 Crisium wrote: JangBi is a combined 0-5 this month in PL and OSL, true. But a Protoss going 0-5 against ZerO, Jaedong, Soulkey, and Calm is not shameful. He made several questionable errors in the games, but overall we still have to wait and see how he handles Baby and Killer. Though unless he pulls out some magic I'm not sure if he has a chance of retaining a spot on next month's ranking.
I'm still praying that Stork 3-0s his group and returns in the PR. Dear gods of Broodwar, grant Stork his dino toss powers. Thank you.
Stork is like 3-0 since the return.....
of his glasses.
Jangbi did lose games, but he lost to some of the best ZvPers out there(excluding Clam, although his ZvP isnt terrible).
On a more serious note, ZerO is wrecking, 10 win streak currently, however he failed to advance in individual leagues so :<.
Bogus perhaps should get a spot too, He played pretty well and although he was knocked out of the OSL, it was by Jaedong and Flash and he is now playing as the most solid player on STX and is their definite ace player.
On July 14 2011 07:56 Crisium wrote: JangBi is a combined 0-5 this month in PL and OSL, true. But a Protoss going 0-5 against ZerO, Jaedong, Soulkey, and Calm is not shameful. He made several questionable errors in the games, but overall we still have to wait and see how he handles Baby and Killer. Though unless he pulls out some magic I'm not sure if he has a chance of retaining a spot on next month's ranking.
I'm still praying that Stork 3-0s his group and returns in the PR. Dear gods of Broodwar, grant Stork his dino toss powers. Thank you.
On a more serious note, ZerO is wrecking, 10 win streak currently, however he failed to advance in individual leagues so :<.
Not quite. ZerO dropped out of OSL prelims, but he's an MSL seed (and "defending" 2nd place) so he hasn't played yet and won't till August. Which is just a little different from failing to advance.
Guys, I am just here to post this but I am high right now and of course I visit TL.net a lot during the time. God this place just feels magical! It feels like a place where the highest sages visit. And the PR ranks is where the most intellegence meets and act like a god towering over mortals (us to progamers as oppose that we fear the pros). That we are ranking them and they are fighting to survive on top 10. But this also brings character to the players. For example, JangBi might feels somewhat more confident in doing good work and just felt a lazy during his practice games. ZerO sounded like a king with 10 winning streaks to ravaged everyone at his passing God (I mean TLers! lol), this feels so awesome! Another thing is that when looking at VODs of them playing. It feels like I am observing and feeling the heartbeat, the thoughts, the veins of the players go pumping in and out. I am sensing their emotions. Well it was a good day to congregate o brethren , good day to congregate.....
On July 15 2011 16:42 ffreakk wrote: Just curious, if (yes IF T_T) Bisu 2-0 his group in OSL where would you guys put him this month? Since those are the only games he will be playing
Well its gonna be hard to place anyone really... since yah its kinda that slow time again.
Also its MSL
I'm sure he won't move down if he 2-0's... I think >.>
Well, I'm guessing Flamewheel will wait until after PL finals (August 6th, irrc). So unless SKT1 dominates and gets a quick 4-0 or something we'll probably see him play there, possible twice.
If he shows power in his MST games and PL game(s) then, yes, he will likely get a mid spot. The top spots will be to Flash, JD, Hydra. ZerO will probably also get an advantage over Bisu thanks to more playoff games, even though punishing Bisu for helping SKT1 get #1 seems odd.
But the month is still early. OSL Ro16 and MST still have to be decided. But if he 2-0s and does decent in PL finals I see no reason he can't be ~5-7.
On July 15 2011 16:55 Crisium wrote: You mean MSL (MST).
Well, I'm guessing Flamewheel will wait until after PL finals (August 6th, irrc). So unless SKT1 dominates and gets a quick 4-0 or something we'll probably see him play there, possible twice.
If he shows power in his MST games and PL game(s) then, yes, he will likely get a mid spot. The top spots will be to Flash, JD, Hydra. ZerO will probably also get an advantage over Bisu thanks to more playoff games, even though punishing Bisu for helping SKT1 get #1 seems odd.
But the month is still early. OSL Ro16 and MST still have to be decided. But if he 2-0s and does decent in PL finals I see no reason he can't be ~5-7.
Im not happy with that >.<
2-0 the MST (not OSL, my bad xD) and carrying your team to SPL's championship (IF, since you assumed that), all the while being the definite Ace and setting a few awesome records only get you number 5-7?.. What have scrubs (pardon the word, i dont like him :p) like Hydra done to warrant a higher spot than that? =/ (and no, playing Cyclops-style doesnt mean anything in my eyes :3)
I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.
On July 15 2011 19:34 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.
A lingering voice in the back of my head tells me this is probably not happening
On July 15 2011 19:34 Vasoline73 wrote: I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.
A lingering voice in the back of my head tells me this is probably not happening
It probably will since he's not in the group of death anymore, and it shouldn't conflict with SPL finals quite yet.
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
On July 15 2011 23:23 Mortality wrote: JD and Zero are better at ZvT. At ZvP it's a little hard to tell. At ZvZ I'm tempted to say JD or Hydra, but Zero has also been good there lately.
yeah I would favor Jaedong and Hydra in a ZvZ against zero in spite of his current form
Both Zero and JD are on 10 game winning streaks and Hydra is 8-2, and all three of them were in the MSL semi-finals last season. XD JD is still JD, so the throne still belongs to him, but the competition for the being the top zerg is really, really tough right now. And Effort is coming back soon as well. Things are looking really good for the swarm.
I have a strong feeling that we're gonna see a lot of Flash vs Zerg at the later stages of the Starleagues.
bisu should be considered for #3 or even #2 if he makes MSL 2-0 (beating baby or even dear might not be so trivial...) and contributes strongly in PL finals (especially if he _beats_ hydra). and he actually does have a history of making it out of MST at least... though his MSL/OSL group stage results are much more amusing, especially when he went out 0-2 to all-zerg groups that he created multiple times XD
On July 16 2011 03:26 ]343[ wrote: bisu should be considered for #3 or even #2 if he makes MSL 2-0 (beating baby or even dear might not be so trivial...) and contributes strongly in PL finals (especially if he _beats_hydra zero). and he actually does have a history of making it out of MST at least... though his MSL/OSL group stage results are much more amusing, especially when he went out 0-2 to all-zerg groups that he created multiple times XD
Beating Hydra or Zero would be a major boon for Bisu in terms of PR. Both of them historically go about 50/50 against him and both of them have achieved convincing wins against him in the not-too--distant past.
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote: First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..
Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.
Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote: First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..
Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.
Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....
There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote: First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..
Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.
Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....
There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.
Fair point but it would make the next month's ranking pretty boring no? lol
I've always considered the PR as more of a monthly ranking but I guess it's up to the writer and how much free time he has to determine what days to count and what results to consider for the rank. Though I must say, it's rather inconsistent to consider 30 days for the rank one month and then 23 days the next given all the games that are/aren't being considered in those 7 days.
It really makes you think whether you can compare a player on the PR from one month to the next.
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote: First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..
Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.
Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....
There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.
Fair point but it would make the next month's ranking pretty boring no? lol
I've always considered the PR as more of a monthly ranking but I guess it's up to the writer and how much free time he has to determine what days to count and what results to consider for the rank. Though I must say, it's rather inconsistent to consider 30 days for the rank one month and then 23 days the next given all the games that are/aren't being considered in those 7 days.
It really makes you think whether you can compare a player on the PR from one month to the next.
pretty sure this rank was made after the MSL finals, for example. i agree that next month's rank will be boring and crappy other than OSL, but such is life.
And I don't understand this comment about setting a bad precedent. The precedent IS to wait. Deliberately waiting for a key event has occurred at least 20 times in the history of the ranking. lol
Depending on next month's schedule, waiting probably does make more sense anyway. As I have said, as others have said, the progaming leagues in BW do not run on a monthly schedule. One month is an entirely arbitrary amount of time, chosen based on whatever medieval Christian mumbo jumbo produced the gregorian calendar system, not based on anything related to BW in the slightest.
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote: First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.
Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.
Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.
I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..
Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.
Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....
There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.
Fair point but it would make the next month's ranking pretty boring no? lol
I've always considered the PR as more of a monthly ranking but I guess it's up to the writer and how much free time he has to determine what days to count and what results to consider for the rank. Though I must say, it's rather inconsistent to consider 30 days for the rank one month and then 23 days the next given all the games that are/aren't being considered in those 7 days.
It really makes you think whether you can compare a player on the PR from one month to the next.
pretty sure this rank was made after the MSL finals, for example. i agree that next month's rank will be boring and crappy other than OSL, but such is life.
This month's rank was a timely July 1st and it encompassed games that occurred in the previous month (i.e., June).
The MSL finals were played on the 11th of June..The writer did not wait until the 11th of the month to publish the previous PR rankings.
It's all good and well to include games well into a month, but then where do you draw the line exactly?
I still firmly believe that having a cutoff date for games to include in the PR allows for the drawing of fair comparisons from month to month.
When in life is anything ever fair? Why do you buy into such a myth?! Even if you set things for exactly 1 month, each month has a different number of games played.
Also, it was after SEMI-finals that the last ranking was released. And it made perfect sense to wait.
On July 16 2011 21:24 DarkMatter_ wrote: At this rate, I can see Jaedong and Zero taking the #1 and #2 spots.
Flash has only played one game in which he didn't look his normal brutal self imo (the game vs Shuttle). It is not enough to demote him quite yet, even though Jeadong should be a strong contender. We should keep in mind though that post season games, and espescially ace games are very difficult to win as consistantly as other matches. Yesterday Zero plyed very well, but things also turned out his way (not that I'm saying he was lucky).
On July 16 2011 21:24 DarkMatter_ wrote: At this rate, I can see Jaedong and Zero taking the #1 and #2 spots.
Jaedong isn't going to play any proleague games this month. In addition, he's in a 100% zvz group in the OSL.
Zero isn't even duel leaguing.
As long as flash advances in the OSL, I'd keep him at first. If he flops, the spot should be given to A. Jaedong, IF he advances in the OSL, or B. Zero, depending on how far he takes his team into the playoffs (if he does).
On July 16 2011 20:28 Mortality wrote: When in life is anything ever fair? Why do you buy into such a myth?! Even if you set things for exactly 1 month, each month has a different number of games played.
Also, it was after SEMI-finals that the last ranking was released. And it made perfect sense to wait.
Wow mortality...no need to get heated..
We're discussing something quite trivial in nature..
You do bring up an excellent point though, the games are unevenly distributed.
Though, I still don't see why you can't just wait a month for something to be considered in the next PR..
Anyway, seems a lot of you have similar opinions on the issue, so we'll just leave it at that.
In the end though I still think it's at the PR writers discretion what he/she decides to include.
Regardless, I look forward to reading it whenever it may come out next..
That argument would be correct if this were normal PL and not playoff. How Flash does in the PL playoffs matters a lot, especially in ace match scenarios against one of the chief rivals for rank 1.
So why is 2008 the cutoff point? Are you sure you're not cherry picking to warp statistics to prove a point?
well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bringing many innovations to the game)
On July 17 2011 07:34 swanized wrote:well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bring many innovations to the game)
Jaedong became #1 Zerg in KeSPA on January 2008 and has been ever since then (43 months), so I suppose that works.
On July 17 2011 07:34 swanized wrote:well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bring many innovations to the game)
Jaedong became #1 Zerg in KeSPA on January 2008 and has been ever since then (43 months), so I suppose that works.
did hydra not usurp him for like a month recently?
So why is 2008 the cutoff point? Are you sure you're not cherry picking to warp statistics to prove a point?
well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bringing many innovations to the game)
In the time between Savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash there was another player that did well for a while...
So why is 2008 the cutoff point? Are you sure you're not cherry picking to warp statistics to prove a point?
well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bringing many innovations to the game)
In the time between Savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash there was another player that did well for a while...
On July 17 2011 13:48 Mumei wrote: As you said, you were mistaken. However, Hydra has gotten increasingly closer in the last few months:
May - 248.2 Point Margin June - 138.7 Point Margin July - 72.7 Point Margin
I think this is the first time Jaedong has been in real danger of losing his spot since first taking it.
Yeah, he runs a pretty high risk of losing it to Hydra next month since he gets to play a bunch of playoff games, which gives you a lot of points. If both advances in the OSL but Hydra gets 3-4 wins in the playoffs, he'll probably get #1 Zerg in Kespa ranking.
So why is 2008 the cutoff point? Are you sure you're not cherry picking to warp statistics to prove a point?
well 2008 marks the start of the modern era I believe (with savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash starting to dominate the scene and bringing many innovations to the game)
In the time between Savior's fall and Jaedong/Flash there was another player that did well for a while...
The Top 5 is really close at the moment I think. Flash is Flash, Jaedong is literally unstoppble, Zero is being a real hero for Stars and is on a pretty crazy winning spree, Hydra pretty much destoys anyone who isn't Flash in a Starleague and Bisu is also doing great lately.
We should most definitely wait until after PL is over so we can make the most accurate possible rank of these beasts.
On July 18 2011 17:14 erikzbi wrote: i feel sorry for bisu though
Why?
Jaedong has only 2 games left this month, both ZvZ. Bisu still has MST and PL GF, which will be counted towards the next ranking. No idea when MSL starts so I suppose JD could end up with more than 2 more games, but it's unlikely.
Bisu has plenty of opportunity to place higher than his rivals, or alternatively to fall behind them, according to how he plays.
On July 18 2011 17:14 erikzbi wrote: i feel sorry for bisu though
Why?
Jaedong has only 2 games left this month, both ZvZ. Bisu still has MST and PL GF, which will be counted towards the next ranking. No idea when MSL starts so I suppose JD could end up with more than 2 more games, but it's unlikely.
Bisu has plenty of opportunity to place higher than his rivals, or alternatively to fall behind them, according to how he plays.
the last MST games will be played on 2nd august (followed by group selection and stuff..), so there won't be any MSL games for JD before the next PR is published.
On the other hand, should JD win the remaining 2 games, he would be on a 12 game winning streak, which pretty much guarantees a top spot.
In the end, the contenders for the top are pretty clear (-> Flash, JD, Bisu, Zero) but it's too close to call anything yet.
Hydra is most definitely a part of those names; there are 5 players that currently stand out completely from the rest. Hydra will, along with Bisu, get his chance to show his worth in the PL play-offs.
On July 19 2011 04:49 Holgerius wrote: Hydra is most definitely a part of those names; there are 5 players that currently stand out completely from the rest. Hydra will, along with Bisu, get his chance to show his worth in the PL play-offs.
Well, Hydra only played one game in July, and he lost that one, so I wouldn't mention him yet. We will see if he deserves a spot in the top 5 as soon as CJ enters the PL playoffs.
That one loss was against Flash, who played like Flash is supposed to, in OSL. I for one can't really fault him too much for that one. His amazing track record in the recent Starleagues as well as Proleauge makes him a super strong candidate for the top spots as long as he delivers like he's supposed to in the playoffs. As of right now he most definitely deserves a place amongst those names, despite that loss against Flash.
To me it looked like a total fail build -> failed 9 pool agression into fast 3 base, which delayed his tech so much that Hydra had 2-3 control groups of marine/medic in his third base, before he could start morphing lurkers. He also failed to do anything to keep Flash in his base with his Zerglings and Mutas.
While Flashs dropship play at the end was kinda cool, the game really was pretty much lost, when Hydras third went down.
In my eyes, Hydra has to take the blame for that game - wheter or not Flash "played like he is supposed to".
I agree, that he is a strong candidate for the top spots, If he delivers in proleague, but I wouldn't reserve a top spot for him, before he has won a single game in July
On July 19 2011 05:06 Holgerius wrote: That one loss was against Flash, who played like Flash is supposed to, in OSL. I for one can't really fault him too much for that one. His amazing track record in the recent Starleagues as well as Proleauge makes him a super strong candidate for the top spots as long as he delivers like he's supposed to in the playoffs. As of right now he most definitely deserves a place amongst those names, despite that loss against Flash.
Maybe im just blinded by Flash's brilliant timings but I really felt Hydra just rolled over when I watched game. His build was very strange I think: 9 pool into 3 hat with slow tech and I didn't feel his muta micro was that good. Hydra is without a doubt a very talanted player, but he seems inconsistant, like last season when he could own in the OSL and still lose left and right in PL.
Calling Hydra inconsistent is really weird. The guy has reached two straight Starleague semi-finals (going all the way one season, only stopped by the eventual winner and Starcraft savant Flash the other) and has a 65% winrate (or something around there) over the course of the PL season. If he isn't consistent, then who is?
Light tearing it up, Hoejja aswell. Thing about the others is that they aren't able to play as many games as they could. Jaedong only a few for example.
offtopic a bit but, lmao did you change your sig Swanized
Flash JD Bisu Hydra Zero Light Bogus - won 2-0 in MST and won all his games in PL. Too bad his team failed and he doesn't have more opportunities to prove himself. Hoejja
Other potential candidates are Horang2, Movie, Best, Sea, Jangbi.
Fantasy has a great opportunity to redeem himself if he can sweep his OSL group, advance from his MST group and do his job in the PL finals. It's a strong possibility too consider that Sea is the only difficult opponent in his OSL group (hiya kind of sucks at TvT), his MST group is a piece of cake, and we know he's capable of showing an S-class performance at an important event like the PL finals.
Stork may be able to steal a #10 spot or something if he can somehow make it out of the OSL group and the MST group. I don't see it happening though.
Killer only has the OSL. I know the same is true with JD but JD has a much more established reputation and he had a great streak going into this month that included beating Flash twice.
On July 19 2011 23:06 Holgerius wrote: Ya, JD's complete lack of good opportunities to prove himself this month makes me sad. Makes it really hard to make a fair ranking.
I feel like JD has already proved himself last month and kept up the winning streak (no losses at all) surely calls for #1 spot easily.
Flash, on the other hand, would have lost his #1 spot last month if it wasn't for winning the 3rd starleague due to his inconsistent performance. Now, it's become even harder for him to justify him even for #2 spot because he lost to shuttle / zero and there's no starleague win to save him. I feel bad for Flash =/ , especially because he has a wrist problem but what can you do. =/
Huh? Flash is indisputably the star of KT's playoff roster (just look at his games!!!) and he has OSL even if his team fails to advance. Minimum of 3 more games for Flash, 8 games played so far in July.
On July 19 2011 23:06 Holgerius wrote: Ya, JD's complete lack of good opportunities to prove himself this month makes me sad. Makes it really hard to make a fair ranking.
I feel like JD has already proved himself last month and kept up the winning streak (no losses at all) surely calls for #1 spot easily.
Flash, on the other hand, would have lost his #1 spot last month if it wasn't for winning the 3rd starleague due to his inconsistent performance. Now, it's become even harder for him to justify him even for #2 spot because he lost to shuttle / zero and there's no starleague win to save him. I feel bad for Flash =/ , especially because he has a wrist problem but what can you do. =/
Unfortunately, winning 3 OSL games against mediocre opponents (assuming he actually wins them) just aren't enough to get you a #1 spot. Flash may have lost a couple of games but he's still playing an important role in PL and it looks like he'll sweep his OSL group as well (small chance he'll lose to Stork, but I don't see him losing to Shine).
Flash already holds the #1 spot and his reputation speaks for itself. On top of that, if you consider the fact that he's helped his team make it through two round in the playoffs, and that he might potentially make it out of a tough OSL group, there's no way he can lose his spot.
It's a little unfortunate for Jaedong because he might actually be the strongest and most consistent player at the moment but in a month where he can do little to prove that statement, it's hard to give him the top spot when someone like Flash is having a much greater impact.
On July 19 2011 23:06 Holgerius wrote: Ya, JD's complete lack of good opportunities to prove himself this month makes me sad. Makes it really hard to make a fair ranking.
I feel like JD has already proved himself last month and kept up the winning streak (no losses at all) surely calls for #1 spot easily.
Flash, on the other hand, would have lost his #1 spot last month if it wasn't for winning the 3rd starleague due to his inconsistent performance. Now, it's become even harder for him to justify him even for #2 spot because he lost to shuttle / zero and there's no starleague win to save him. I feel bad for Flash =/ , especially because he has a wrist problem but what can you do. =/
I'm not sure I follow. Flash went 3-1 vs STX, the single loss a well-played game vs Shuttle, whom he then beat the next day on the same map. Flash went 3-1 vs Stars, the single loss to ZerO using an unexpected build on a Zerg-favored map. He beat Hydra handily in the OSL Ro16 and is almost certainly favored vs Stork and especially Shine. He's an MSL seed who won't even have to play a game for another month practically. Unless he collapses dramatically vs CJ (or SKT assuming KT's lineup holds up to get that far) I'd say Flash is doing just fine as far as holding on to #1 is concerned. That loss streak, in retrospect, just looks like he mailed it in for a few weeks on games that didn't matter at all - and given what we know of his health condition, who's going to blame him?
Beyond that, who's a more plausible #1? Jaedong's probably going to beat Hyuk and hyvaa handily, but those will be his only games on the month, not enough to jump Flash. If he loses one of those, not a chance even if he advances.
Bisu has an easy MST group which he should 2-0. Any claim he can make has to assume that and then be based on his PL finals performance - and even then, that will be a max of 2 games, and if he doesn't beat Flash may not be enough
Hydra already lost one game to Flash this month: he should probably beat Stork and Shine but his placement also will largely depend on playoff performance - and given the maps, I doubt CJ's going to be fielding him as the ace except maybe on Day 1 (PL finals I don't know about, obviously).
tl;dr: there's still some Starcraft left in the month but right now Flash looks like a pretty solid #1.
On July 19 2011 23:06 Holgerius wrote: Ya, JD's complete lack of good opportunities to prove himself this month makes me sad. Makes it really hard to make a fair ranking.
I feel like JD has already proved himself last month and kept up the winning streak (no losses at all) surely calls for #1 spot easily.
Flash, on the other hand, would have lost his #1 spot last month if it wasn't for winning the 3rd starleague due to his inconsistent performance. Now, it's become even harder for him to justify him even for #2 spot because he lost to shuttle / zero and there's no starleague win to save him. I feel bad for Flash =/ , especially because he has a wrist problem but what can you do. =/
Most of JD's winning streak was already accounted for last month. He's 2-0 in July and at best will go 4-0 for the month. Not really enough to push him over the top to #1 IMO. Flash is 6-2 so far this month and will likely improve that record since CJ doesn't have anyone with a better than 30% chance of beating Flash besides Snow (assuming Skyhigh is still slumping). Flash's OSL group is tougher than JD's as well.If both players win out until the next power rank I expect Flash to be #1 easily.
huge Jaedong fan, but with so little games and alot of them ZvZ(although his ZvZ wasn't the best this year)I don't think he should get #1, Flash should get #1 depending on his performance against CJ and his run in the OSL.
Flash deserves #1 unless he chokes majorly hard in the upcoming week. JD should be number 2 if he wins out i think, unless Bisu/Hydra perform incredibly well. If JD wins out he's 1 win away from his career best winstreak and that deserves some love.
Hope he does it, even if JD doesn't get in the top 2 XD
Since I don't think there even was a chance, it doesn't really matter. It is however pretty bad for my health to have to fear another week. OSL-groups are quite brutal.
We know Flash, JD, Bisu, Zero, and Hydra are almost all locked on the PR. I don't want to make rankings right now because too many important things remain, but a preview is warranted:
(caveat: I have seen very few games this month so this post is largely driven by results with details being filled in partially based on what I've seen this month, but mostly based on previous months)
Significant data still being collected: Flash (busiest schedule of anyone right now) Hydra (in OSL, MSL and his #2 seeded team will play next in playoffs)
Finished for the month: Zero (wowzors, almost certainly not #1 but a very, very likely top 3) Light (deserves a spot, relatively easy month but looking solid -- though not as brilliant as the 5 above -- for the past few months, advanced in MST and played a key role in the playoffs with a 5-1 record there) Bogus (so strong lately) Soulkey (not sure if he'll be PR worthy, but probably CBNC)
Yet to play: Bisu (technically played 1 game vs SkyHigh... which means squat to me) Movie
Other contenders: JD (disappointingly little data, needs to pull a win in OSL next week or he risks elimination -- his ZvT is tremendous and I think his game against Jangbi was outstandingly played by both) Jangbi (speaking of him, PR position is unlikely, but CBNC is deserved) Killer (rising pretty quick) Hoejja (he is a contender, although I'm not sure about a rank 7 that someone was suggesting when I see so many other players producing strong(er) results) Soo (now advanced in MST, we'll see how he does in OSL and playoffs, but I still think he's a one match wonder) Fantasy (is he back? playoffs may prove or disprove) Sea (could he actually make the Ro8?!?!?!?!) hon_sin (lol just kidding)
On July 20 2011 23:03 Mortality wrote: Soulkey (not sure if he'll be PR worthy, but probably CBNC)
my heavy bias aside, I don't think a lot of other players did much better then NSK's 5-2
His record for July is fine, but his matchlist was somewhat unimpressive, which is why his ELO 49 points less than it was exactly 1 month ago. I did not see any of Soulkey's games with my own eyes so maybe he showed some things that quantitative analysis fails to consider, but 5-2 doesn't mean that much to me when only 2 players are among those I'm even considering for PR or CBNC.
imo jaedong should be number 1 next rank. he lost to hyuk. so what? he had a BO disadvantage and hyuk played brilliantly. imo the only place where you could fault him was that he made slightly too many zerglings.
would like to see bogus and light on the rankings as well.
On July 21 2011 18:05 Motivate wrote: imo jaedong should be number 1 next rank. he lost to hyuk. so what? he had a BO disadvantage and hyuk played brilliantly. imo the only place where you could fault him was that he made slightly too many zerglings.
would like to see bogus and light on the rankings as well.
I don't see a reason for JD to be #1. His streak was already accounted for, and given his opponents and games this month, there is really no reason to promote him above Flash.
On July 20 2011 23:03 Mortality wrote: Soulkey (not sure if he'll be PR worthy, but probably CBNC)
my heavy bias aside, I don't think a lot of other players did much better then NSK's 5-2
His record for July is fine, but his matchlist was somewhat unimpressive, which is why his ELO 49 points less than it was exactly 1 month ago. I did not see any of Soulkey's games with my own eyes so maybe he showed some things that quantitative analysis fails to consider, but 5-2 doesn't mean that much to me when only 2 players are among those I'm even considering for PR or CBNC.
well Flash aside those all are players soulkey should dominate and he did dominate them (except perfective), I think he deserves a low spot
On July 20 2011 23:03 Mortality wrote: Soulkey (not sure if he'll be PR worthy, but probably CBNC)
my heavy bias aside, I don't think a lot of other players did much better then NSK's 5-2
His record for July is fine, but his matchlist was somewhat unimpressive, which is why his ELO 49 points less than it was exactly 1 month ago. I did not see any of Soulkey's games with my own eyes so maybe he showed some things that quantitative analysis fails to consider, but 5-2 doesn't mean that much to me when only 2 players are among those I'm even considering for PR or CBNC.
well Flash aside those all are players soulkey should dominate and he did dominate them (except perfective), I think he deserves a low spot
If there is room, okay, but the following players I see as ahead of him: Flash, Jaedong, Bisu, Hydra, Zero, Light, Bogus
And so Soulkey is fighting with: Fanta (back in form?), Movie (has not yet played, but has MST and playoffs ahead of him), Sea (if he advances), Killer.... all of whom are ahead of Soulkey in ELO and with only the possible exception of Movie, none of them were ahead one month ago. And then there's players like Hoejja, Soo and Jangbi depending on how they do etc, and Baby, and even Stork could be in contention if he advances in OSL and MST, although I'm disinclined to think he will right now since most of his recent wins come from terrible players.
On July 21 2011 18:05 Motivate wrote: imo jaedong should be number 1 next rank. he lost to hyuk. so what? he had a BO disadvantage and hyuk played brilliantly. imo the only place where you could fault him was that he made slightly too many zerglings.
would like to see bogus and light on the rankings as well.
JD has only played 3 games total this month, none of them against top opponents. 2-1 in that respect does not go a long way towards #1 material. His streak was last month and already counted towards him placing #3 (or #2 effectively).
On July 21 2011 18:05 Motivate wrote: imo jaedong should be number 1 next rank. he lost to hyuk. so what? he had a BO disadvantage and hyuk played brilliantly. imo the only place where you could fault him was that he made slightly too many zerglings.
would like to see bogus and light on the rankings as well.
He lost to Hyuk and he was able to play 3 games this month, he lost one of them.
Jaedong shouldn't be #1, Flash should, as long as he beats Stork and continues to deliver in the Playoffs he is #1 by a far margin even.
I might even say that Hydra deserves #2 over the Dong.(depending on Hydra's performance in the playoffs).
# of games played in a given month should not be held against a player. JD has been his awesome; his team sucky. The point that his streak was only enough to make him #2 last month IS valid PROVIDED Flash does enough to maintain #1. Which I think he will.
Now personally, I do think JD should drop a little. I no longer consider him the king of ZvZ and I'm not sure if he's still the best ZvPer. Maybe a little more consistent than Zero or Hydra, but against Bisu I think Zero and Hydra have a better chance. Often these days I see JD fall behind during the middle game and then stage a comeback with awesome late game play. To his benefit he has the strongest late game ZvP by far, but I have to hold that tendency to fall behind in the mid game against him. And, equally important as the subject of skill (where overall we may give JD the benefit of the doubt over Zero or Hydra) is the subject of results. So far in 2011 Hydra has the best individual league results of anyone (gold -> semifinals), including Flash, and Zero went beyond JD in the last MSL and really shined big time in the playoffs. Not to mention that PR is about hotness and right now Zero is so hot that I hear MC Hammer in my head whenever I look at him. "da-nanana-nana-nana Can't touch this!"
How much JD drops depends on whether or not he advances. If he fails to advance he will deserve to be behind Zero. If he advances the question becomes more complicated.
I think we can safely say that Jangbi is going to be off the ranking. I'm tempted to say he deserves a shout out for a tough break. His game against JD early in the month was tremendous, but a player who goes 2-6, dropping from OSL and dropping games that matter in PL playoffs cannot get a rank on a month with so many stand outs. Although maybe tie-breaker is possible?
On July 22 2011 20:05 ArvickHero wrote: hey Mortality
Still think Soo's simply just a one-matchup wonder?
I did not see the game, but really, are you seriously going to suggest that a single win proves anything? Especially given Sea's current form (not even top 10 TvZ by ELO, only 1 win in his last 8 games). Although I think this also knocks Sea out of the running for PR since currently he is achieving results that are great in TvT, but mediocre in TvP and less than mediocre in TvZ.
Soo could get ranked. After TLPD is updated he will be ahead of Soulkey in ELO even though Soulkey was 100 points ahead a month ago. The PL grandfinal and the game against Hiya will be important indicators for Soo's rank.
gee I love the overreactions to when I say that Soo isn't simply a one-matchup wonder. Possibly my definition is wrong, but I think of one-matchup wonder literally being you can only play one matchup and suck donkey shit in all other MUs (Skyhigh one such example).
I'm simply saying that Soo (and Hoejja for you KT fans) can play really solid ZvT and (maybe) ZvZ now, while having superb ZvP. When Soo was slumping, his ZvT and ZvZ was absolutely abysmal, but recently he's been playing very solid management ZvT against decent opponents.
On July 23 2011 07:44 ArvickHero wrote: gee I love the overreactions to when I say that Soo isn't simply a one-matchup wonder. Possibly my definition is wrong, but I think of one-matchup wonder literally being you can only play one matchup and suck donkey shit in all other MUs (Skyhigh one such example).
I'm simply saying that Soo (and Hoejja for you KT fans) can play really solid ZvT and (maybe) ZvZ now, while having superb ZvP. When Soo was slumping, his ZvT and ZvZ was absolutely abysmal, but recently he's been playing very solid management ZvT against decent opponents.
I don't think anyone is saying soO is awful at ZvT (as in modesty awful) but rather that only his ZvP is power rank worthy.
(and also that if soO's ZvT wasn't considered good before his game against sea why would it be after only one game)
On July 23 2011 07:44 ArvickHero wrote: gee I love the overreactions to when I say that Soo isn't simply a one-matchup wonder. Possibly my definition is wrong, but I think of one-matchup wonder literally being you can only play one matchup and suck donkey shit in all other MUs (Skyhigh one such example).
I'm simply saying that Soo (and Hoejja for you KT fans) can play really solid ZvT and (maybe) ZvZ now, while having superb ZvP. When Soo was slumping, his ZvT and ZvZ was absolutely abysmal, but recently he's been playing very solid management ZvT against decent opponents.
Sometimes able to play a match solidly isn't the same thing as being well and truly solid. He's secured a few decent wins, but outside of ZvP nothing really worth bragging about. Since you bring up SkyHigh I may as well point out that SkyHigh's TvP and TvZ stats are comparable to Soo's ZvT and ZvZ. And even if you want to say that Soo's days of failure are behind him, this is something that has to be proved. A handful of wins don't do that. Quantitatively he still has something to prove and qualitatively he's done nothing high profile, nothing really of note to anyone who isn't wearing a T1 logo.
And I don't know how you get the idea that he was in a slump when he had never proven himself to begin with. A slump implies that proof has been given.
On July 20 2011 04:33 DarkMatter_ wrote: Killer only has the OSL. I know the same is true with JD but JD has a much more established reputation and he had a great streak going into this month that included beating Flash twice.
Ahhh, but he now has 3 wins this month with a 5 win streak going. Also looking very likely to makit it out of his OSL group. KILLER HWAITING!
On July 23 2011 16:17 Holgerius wrote: Ya, Roo most definitely deserves a shout-out. Talk about stepping it up when it matters.
And at the same time Flash strengthens his claim to #1. ^__^
Meh. Flash has a very strong claim on #1 but TBH beating SkyHigh in TvT does not mean what it used to. He's a pretty sucky player right now.
Is there really anyone else who can challenge his claim? JD doesn't deserve it. Neither do Zero nor Hydra from their recent performances. Bisu cleared his MST group 2-0, but he was fully expected to given who he was playing (SongDuRi and Baby), so that shouldn't bump him up either.
On July 23 2011 16:17 Holgerius wrote: Ya, Roo most definitely deserves a shout-out. Talk about stepping it up when it matters.
And at the same time Flash strengthens his claim to #1. ^__^
Meh. Flash has a very strong claim on #1 but TBH beating SkyHigh in TvT does not mean what it used to. He's a pretty sucky player right now.
Is there really anyone else who can challenge his claim? JD doesn't deserve it. Neither do Zero nor Hydra from their recent performances. Bisu cleared his MST group 2-0, but he was fully expected to given who he was playing (SongDuRi and Baby), so that shouldn't bump him up either.
Ya, but Bisu advancing from "prelims" is like another player winning a Starleague.
On July 23 2011 16:17 Holgerius wrote: Ya, Roo most definitely deserves a shout-out. Talk about stepping it up when it matters.
And at the same time Flash strengthens his claim to #1. ^__^
Meh. Flash has a very strong claim on #1 but TBH beating SkyHigh in TvT does not mean what it used to. He's a pretty sucky player right now.
Is there really anyone else who can challenge his claim? JD doesn't deserve it. Neither do Zero nor Hydra from their recent performances. Bisu cleared his MST group 2-0, but he was fully expected to given who he was playing (SongDuRi and Baby), so that shouldn't bump him up either.
Yeah true Jaedong doesn't deserve it for going 9/1 in his last 10 while Flash goes 8/2.I mean cmon Jaedong lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage he surely is slumping and I'd say he even doesn't deserve a place in the power rank (not even inh cbnc).
But how many wins does jaedong have THIS month, hm?
On July 23 2011 16:17 Holgerius wrote: Ya, Roo most definitely deserves a shout-out. Talk about stepping it up when it matters.
And at the same time Flash strengthens his claim to #1. ^__^
Meh. Flash has a very strong claim on #1 but TBH beating SkyHigh in TvT does not mean what it used to. He's a pretty sucky player right now.
Is there really anyone else who can challenge his claim? JD doesn't deserve it. Neither do Zero nor Hydra from their recent performances. Bisu cleared his MST group 2-0, but he was fully expected to given who he was playing (SongDuRi and Baby), so that shouldn't bump him up either.
Yeah true Jaedong doesn't deserve it for going 9/1 in his last 10 while Flash goes 8/2.I mean cmon Jaedong lost a zvz with a bo disadvantage he surely is slumping and I'd say he even doesn't deserve a place in the power rank (not even inh cbnc).
Do you legit think Jaedong should be over Flash this month? Flash has done better in his OSL against better competition, all while having to play PL the next day and doing well.
On July 23 2011 16:17 Holgerius wrote: Ya, Roo most definitely deserves a shout-out. Talk about stepping it up when it matters.
And at the same time Flash strengthens his claim to #1. ^__^
Meh. Flash has a very strong claim on #1 but TBH beating SkyHigh in TvT does not mean what it used to. He's a pretty sucky player right now.
Is there really anyone else who can challenge his claim? JD doesn't deserve it. Neither do Zero nor Hydra from their recent performances. Bisu cleared his MST group 2-0, but he was fully expected to given who he was playing (SongDuRi and Baby), so that shouldn't bump him up either.
Only Bisu can possibly dethrone Flash as #1, and only in the circumstance that Bisu goes 2-0 in a T1 vs KT playoff with at least 1 win over Flash (I believe the grandfinal is only a single bo7 like it was last year -- verification necessary on that), or alternatively in the circumstance that from now on Flash drops the ball completely.
Bisu won't play Flash, neither coach park nor oov want that. My guess is that Bisu will be sent out on Alternative to take out a zerg and BeSt will come out on La Mancha. Bisu is almost a guarenteed win vs a zerg, but his odds vs Stats or Flash aren't good, so it would be dumb for SKT to do that.
He didn't play badly, he just played ULTRA SAFE (even admitted in the interview at the end), accumulating his muta flock to the point he could tank Spores and kill them.
On July 24 2011 09:32 moopie wrote: Bisu won't play Flash, neither coach park nor oov want that. My guess is that Bisu will be sent out on Alternative to take out a zerg and BeSt will come out on La Mancha. Bisu is almost a guarenteed win vs a zerg, but his odds vs Stats or Flash aren't good, so it would be dumb for SKT to do that.
Bisu and Best are the only 2 in SKT1 with a reasonable chance of taking down Flash. Obviously for the normal matches (sets 1-6) T1 wants to send Best v Flash. In the ace match they pretty much HAVE to send Bisu, just in case KT decides to swerve and send somebody else. If Fantasy were in the kind of form he had a year ago (when he went 2-3 v Flash in Bigfile in what was probably the best TvT series ever played) things would be different.
On July 24 2011 18:25 Ozarugold wrote: Wait...is Hydra going to be above Jaedong is Kespa ranking now?
I wouldn't imagine so. He's only 2-2 so far this month, while JD is 2-1, and already has a lead in points. They both have an OSL game left, which could certainly play a part, but it should still be likely that JD retains his spot above him
That's not how Kespa rank works. Jaedong is losing more points per month because of all of his great finishes from last year that are decaying, while Hydra's recent msl win + semifinals berth and adequate proleague appearances are less decayed and will push him over. I'm pretty sure Hydra is a shoe in to pass jaedong up right now.
On July 24 2011 20:14 TwoToneTerran wrote: That's not how Kespa rank works. Jaedong is losing more points per month because of all of his great finishes from last year that are decaying, while Hydra's recent msl win + semifinals berth and adequate proleague appearances are less decayed and will push him over. I'm pretty sure Hydra is a shoe in to pass jaedong up right now.
Wait but didn't Jaedong make the last two MSL semifinals as well...? Still, I wouldn't be altogether tooooo surprised to see JD passed on kespa rank. Only temporarily!
Yeah but it depends on the results from 12 months ago. Those 2 semifinals were already factored into JD's ranking, but if a significant result from 12 months ago drops off the rank then JD loses those points.
I don't know exactly how Kespa does it, but it seems to me it would work a lot better if they calculated it such that the devaluation of points was much more gradual—that is, points shouldn't just suddenly DROP off after 12 months, they should get a little bit less valuable the older the games get.
I like the idea of a long-term rank, as opposed to something so fickle where a guy can have a bad month or two and suddenly fall off the face of the earth (like power rank), but I bet Kespa rank could be a lot better than it is.
On July 25 2011 13:26 SimonB wrote: I don't know exactly how Kespa does it, but it seems to me it would work a lot better if they calculated it such that the devaluation of points was much more gradual—that is, points shouldn't just suddenly DROP off after 12 months, they should get a little bit less valuable the older the games get.
I like the idea of a long-term rank, as opposed to something so fickle where a guy can have a bad month or two and suddenly fall off the face of the earth (like power rank), but I bet Kespa rank could be a lot better than it is.
Im positive its a 10% gradual decrease every month starting from the 3rd month after said achievement yes?
On July 25 2011 13:26 SimonB wrote: I don't know exactly how Kespa does it, but it seems to me it would work a lot better if they calculated it such that the devaluation of points was much more gradual—that is, points shouldn't just suddenly DROP off after 12 months, they should get a little bit less valuable the older the games get.
Still think Soo's simply just a one-matchup wonder?
Hoejja: King of ZvT because he beat Sea on La Mancha!
I feel as though that was directed at me o_O
And it's not Hoejjas / Soo's fault for not having more vT's (yadda yadda, wont have this discussion now, since I get a weird taste in my mouth for what I am about to do, praise a T1 player) Seriously though, Soo is 18-4 since april, which is really damn sick. Lets sink that in for a moment, and compare this soo, to this soo I said it before, I will say it again; with confidence (a small winning streak, for example?) comes consistency. Atleast undtil they're not as confident anymore and start fucking themselves over.
Though most of his opponents has been protoss, he has more vs terran games than vs zerg, (though 3 of his losses were against terrans).
Think about it, this seems reminiscent to Shine's 14 game winning streak last year where he played good but fell of the radar again after losing to mind in the ro16
Honestly I have NOOOOOO problem with Hoejja rising up to be number 1 Zerg. Well he does have a distinctive look that reminds me of the Zerg that once rose up to number 1 but decide to give it all away.
On July 25 2011 21:20 Xiphos wrote: Honestly I have NOOOOOO problem with Hoejja rising up to be number 1 Zerg. Well he does have a distinctive look that reminds me of the Zerg that once rose up to number 1 but decide to give it all away.
No way in hell that Hoejja overtakes Jaedong, Zero and Hydra (as much as I would love himbeing the best zerg, I dont see it happening). His ZvZ is nowhere near as good as any of those
Would be sweet to have a lefthanded player as the best zerg though oo
On July 25 2011 21:20 Xiphos wrote: Honestly I have NOOOOOO problem with Hoejja rising up to be number 1 Zerg. Well he does have a distinctive look that reminds me of the Zerg that once rose up to number 1 but decide to give it all away.
On July 24 2011 17:17 Elroi wrote: ^ Just watch his last game, he played badly imo. I don't think you can give him much credit for building a 9-pool.
He didn't really play badly to my view. He just played safely and compounded his advantage.
Look at it this way. At the moment he killed the enemy hatch, he wasn't strong enough to attack-move-win. By the end of the game, he was strong enough to attack-move-win. In between, he had complete map control and never permitted any kind of comeback whatsoever. He simply increased his advantage over time until he won. That's good strategy.
I agree that his last game wasn't anything special, but I don't find fault with someone who decides to take the 100% sure path to victory.
Anyway... Roo will probably be fielded against SKT and we can see how he does then.
On July 26 2011 19:45 ffreakk wrote: My only problem with this is we (SKT) are a Protoss-heavy team..
And the current outlook of PvZ makes me sad
Actually, SKT Zergs nearly as many wins as SKT Tosses this season, and mainly against non-P opponents too.
If I was the KT coach I would probably be the one worried about PvZ, as once Flash is set against Bisu (which is the best way to neutralize Bisu) then there is no one that can deal with SKT Zergs on my entire team, given the current state of PvZ.
On July 26 2011 17:09 _romantic wrote: Somehow doubt the coaching staff on SKT will want any of the matchups that people here say will determine the next PR.
Flash <> Bisu Of course not
Flash <> Fantasy Risky
We're talking about the ACE MATCH scenario. It's 95% locked that KT sends Flash. The remaining 5% is a swerve choice -- the probability that either Flash's wrist is causing too much problem or that the KT coach decides to take a gamble on the hypothesis that T1 will taylor build orders specifically to take down Flash.
So who does T1 send?
You say not Bisu. Right now he is probably the best PvTer in the world, he is the best PvZ BY FAR and he is #1 ranked in PvP.
Fantasy I agree is risky, though Fantasy's post season record in PL is tremendous. The thing is that Fanta is coming out of a slump. A year ago Fanta would have been the best pick for this scenario (consider his bo5 with Flash in Bigfile), but right now I wouldn't risk sending him against the strongest TvTer ever.
Best is a good choice if you assume that Flash is the ONLY possible candidate for ace, but if KT does swerve you have to pray to god that they send Stats and not one of their Zergs -- even then Stats should be in the advantage.
Who else could T1 send? Soo? S2? Hyuk? Against Flash those are tremendous gambles since none of them are known for strong vT play. T1 has enough depth on their roster that choosing to swerve like that would be crazy.
On July 26 2011 17:09 _romantic wrote: Somehow doubt the coaching staff on SKT will want any of the matchups that people here say will determine the next PR.
Flash <> Bisu Of course not
Flash <> Fantasy Risky
We're talking about the ACE MATCH scenario. It's 95% locked that KT sends Flash. The remaining 5% is a swerve choice -- the probability that either Flash's wrist is causing too much problem or that the KT coach decides to take a gamble on the hypothesis that T1 will taylor build orders specifically to take down Flash.
So who does T1 send?
You say not Bisu. Right now he is probably the best PvTer in the world, he is the best PvZ BY FAR and he is #1 ranked in PvP.
Fantasy I agree is risky, though Fantasy's post season record in PL is tremendous. The thing is that Fanta is coming out of a slump. A year ago Fanta would have been the best pick for this scenario (consider his bo5 with Flash in Bigfile), but right now I wouldn't risk sending him against the strongest TvTer ever.
Best is a good choice if you assume that Flash is the ONLY possible candidate for ace, but if KT does swerve you have to pray to god that they send Stats and not one of their Zergs -- even then Stats should be in the advantage.
Who else could T1 send? Soo? S2? Hyuk? Against Flash those are tremendous gambles since none of them are known for strong vT play. T1 has enough depth on their roster that choosing to swerve like that would be crazy.
I agree. Also, one has to bear in mind that thinking about builds and snipes on paper overlooks the fact that pressure is a big issue in deciding who to send out. I'm pretty sure that the PL Grand Finals is the most nerve-wracking possible setting for a progamer. The pressure must be huge. To my mind, a coach needs to consider who his most experienced and mentally tough player is, and when that player is also his most skilled, the decision is practically made already.
Flash is really the only choice for KT. Remember that he can create "snipe" builds too.
Bisu and Fantasy are really the only choices for SKT, and I think Bisu is stronger.
I really cant see KT fielding anyone other than Flash.
Any of their swerves seems to fail miserably vs SKT's most likely Ace choice (Bisu), minus Stats, who has performed pretty well vs Bisu historically. Bisu seemed to have rediscovered some of his vP form towards the end of the season though, so i dont think Stats has better chance than Flash either. Not to mention Stats will have a tough time dealing with Fantasy, the second Ace.
On the other hand, Flash' vT form recently has been too good (he threw away the game vs Leta, but i dont see him doing that again anytime soon.. Anw he really should have won) for me to trust Fantasy to get the job done, barring a Divine snipe build created by Oov, forged by the spirit of BoxeR, and drilled into Fantasy's soul during their weeks of resting/training.
So its Bisu for me, i trust him more than BeSt when it matters Of course half of the reason is because im a fanboy.
I always lol a little bit when I read about Best as an actual rival or opponent against Flash.
6-5 record against Flash, well done, but when Flash has played as many players as he has, statistically that's just going to happen sometimes. Best has little better chance against Flash than does Much, or Casy has against Jaedong.
If we're to go by H2H stats, Stats should have this match in the bag. vs. Bisu: 3 - 0 vs. Fantasy: 3 - 2 vs. by.Sun: 1 - 0 vs. Best: 2 - 0
Bisu is so much better than Best in every way. H2H small samples shouldn't deceive you into thinking that Best is a good ace option. Fantasy would be better if it wasn't for his recent slump (which he may or may not be out of).
As a BeSt fan, I do feel that he stands a much better chance against Flash than Bisu, and head-to-head records have nothing to do with it. Its his style. Bisu is aggressive early on, which of course makes him a force to be reckoned with for Zergs, and most terrans. From what I can recall from his games against Flash, the ones he won (or came close), he got his advantage from very early harassment (gas steals -> goons, early zealots, etc). If that gets blocked though (or he lets the advantage slip), I don't favor his chances at all. BeSt on the other hand is a macro toss, one of the best there is (I feel similarly about horang2 but he seems to lack the affinity for the vT matchup). He favors more laid-back approaches than Bisu and gets most of his wins/close calls against Flash in the mid-late game relying on macro and positioning. His army engagements with Flash seem a lot better controlled imo (and yes I realize my opinion is a minority here).
I don't think Best is a good ace option at all. Don't count him out vs Flash; although I'd agree if you say that the record is a bit deceiving, he actually has a better chance than Bisu at taking Flash on in a center battle (Bisu's wins over Flash mainly come from Bisu doing what Bisu does best: spreading the field). But against anyone else, no, Best has little to no chance. Which is why Bisu is a far, far stronger ace option. The strength of Fanta as an ace option stems more from his strong ability at TvP. Right now Fanta is within spitting distance of being #1 TvP by ELO (currently ranked #3).
Regarding KT sending someone else, I think given Flash's wrist injury it is a serious consideration. The KT coach has to be careful about not dumping the whole burden on just Flash, especially if Flash's wrist decides to act up within the next week. If I were the coach I would plan a back-up, just in case. Also, you have to realize that it's easier for T1 to prepare for Flash than for Flash to prepare for T1 since T1 does have several viable options, even if only 2 of them deserve serious consideration (Fata/Bisu).
On July 27 2011 05:18 moopie wrote: As a BeSt fan, I do feel that he stands a much better chance against Flash than Bisu, and head-to-head records have nothing to do with it. Its his style. Bisu is aggressive early on, which of course makes him a force to be reckoned with for Zergs, and most terrans. From what I can recall from his games against Flash, the ones he won (or came close), he got his advantage from very early harassment (gas steals -> goons, early zealots, etc). If that gets blocked though (or he lets the advantage slip), I don't favor his chances at all. BeSt on the other hand is a macro toss, one of the best there is (I feel similarly about horang2 but he seems to lack the affinity for the vT matchup). He favors more laid-back approaches than Bisu and gets most of his wins/close calls against Flash in the mid-late game relying on macro and positioning. His army engagements with Flash seem a lot better controlled imo (and yes I realize my opinion is a minority here).
Well, the difference with Best and Bisu TvP mid-late game is, Best uses Templars (and effective on top of it) :<
Strangelly, fantasy is winning, but he lost his cuteness somehow. Were are those cheese strats or weird builds? today win against See was inconvincing tbh...
Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
True--he also only has one league to focus on. I mean, Hyuk even has two leagues.
Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
On July 28 2011 04:05 Xiphos wrote: I think for SKT to win vs KT, SKT just need to have EVERYONE there need a snipe build against Flash in EVERY map.
I think that was the reason why CJ lost against KT--everyone devoted their practice time to killing Flash, and there wasn't anyone who practiced vs. the other players on KT.
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
Wow, great answer Mortality. Thanks. Funny how this thread is turning into an SPL strat-fest. There's still plenty of time between these latest games and the SPL, so I'm looking for some epic games.
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
You seem to have forgotten about sun and to a lesser extent paralyze. I think sun would be a better choice than ssak/hyuk. Also because skt has so many 2nd tier players they can assign two different races to the later maps and then decide on the spot depending on who has already played for kt. I agree that ace has to be bisu
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
You seem to have forgotten about sun and to a lesser extent paralyze. I think sun would be a better choice than ssak/hyuk. Also because skt has so many 2nd tier players they can assign two different races to the later maps and then decide on the spot depending on who has already played for kt. I agree that ace has to be bisu
Yea i think he forgot about by.Sun too.. Considering Sun's current form, he is much more likely to be fielded compared to Hyuk/Ssak. However, it might not be that good a thing considering KT tend to field 4 Zergs recently.
But yea, we can field the Ace early (havnt taken another look at map order, so im not sure if this is viable), and have multiple "lesser players" prepare for a single map, and field them accordingly, depending on KT's fielded line-up at that moment.
I kind of did an overview for KT's ideal at the bottom. Really the key, rather than trying to shutdown Bisu/Fanta, is to put Flash and Stats in a position where they can effectively score auto-wins, that way you only need 1 more win to secure an ace match, 2 more wins to steal the series.
And you guys are right about my accidentally overlooking Sun and Paralyze, although TBH if I'm the SKT coach I might play Sun but I won't play Paralyze. KT's line-up is very strong against Protoss. The only reason I'm playing Best in my line-up (a risk considering that if matches are selected randomly there is about a 4/6 chance he plays Zerg) is to take down Flash.
On July 28 2011 15:05 Mortality wrote: I kind of did an overview for KT's ideal at the bottom. Really the key, rather than trying to shutdown Bisu/Fanta, is to put Flash and Stats in a position where they can effectively score auto-wins, that way you only need 1 more win to secure an ace match, 2 more wins to steal the series.
And you guys are right about my accidentally overlooking Sun and Paralyze, although TBH if I'm the SKT coach I might play Sun but I won't play Paralyze. KT's line-up is very strong against Protoss. The only reason I'm playing Best in my line-up (a risk considering that if matches are selected randomly there is about a 4/6 chance he plays Zerg) is to take down Flash.
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
IF skt1 gets those lineups, I will fucking eat something hard and uncomfortable cus thats a nightmare for KTright there something ideal for KT would probally be Sun vs Flash Bisu vs Stats/Action hoejja vs Fantasy Crazy hydra vs Soo Barracks vs s2 Hoejja vs Best then I'd pick Stats/flash for ace depending on the map (if it's bloody ridge, stats could be sent to snipe bisu, and Stats would probally be able to beat fantasy on this map too) thats how I see it anyways, Sun vs Flash is ideal for KT since Sun isn't known for his PvT but rather his PvZ and while I think he could be taken down by a KT zerg (since we took down movie) it''s not worth risking when you have the best tvp in the world on your team. Cant make more likely lineups (rather than favorable) before i have the map order on my hands
On July 28 2011 15:53 Iplaythings wrote: something ideal for KT would probally be (...) hoejja vs Fantasy
Ugh, I dont know it would be ideal for KT, as hoejja would have no comfort with playing against guy, who hummilated him, nuked him and erazed him in first game, and than defeated him in second game when hoejja failed every single chance to snipe his third. Offcourse hoejja improved much and Fantasy lost some of his cuteness, but he still would have mental edge over the hoejja.
On July 28 2011 15:05 Mortality wrote: I kind of did an overview for KT's ideal at the bottom. Really the key, rather than trying to shutdown Bisu/Fanta, is to put Flash and Stats in a position where they can effectively score auto-wins, that way you only need 1 more win to secure an ace match, 2 more wins to steal the series.
And you guys are right about my accidentally overlooking Sun and Paralyze, although TBH if I'm the SKT coach I might play Sun but I won't play Paralyze. KT's line-up is very strong against Protoss. The only reason I'm playing Best in my line-up (a risk considering that if matches are selected randomly there is about a 4/6 chance he plays Zerg) is to take down Flash.
If you had to assign odds, what would you bet?
It's a bit hard to put odds because KT has a lot of inconsistent players, but I definitely think the odds are with T1. KT is coming into this a bit reliant on its Zergs and most of them are known for their ZvP, but none of them should be a serious threat to Bisu. T1's Zergs are better at ZvZ.
On July 28 2011 02:50 Mortality wrote: Hyuk won't necessarily be fielded in T1's line-up. Bisu, Fanta, Best, Soo, S2 and Ssak makes 6 who have all had more PL time recently than Hyuk (who has been used only 4 times in 2011). On paper Hyuk looks stronger to our eyes, but there's no way of knowing exactly what things are like in T1 house.
That makes sense. Out of those 6, which do you think is the most likely Flash sniper? Who does SKT want to keep away from Flash?
I've already discussed ace match: choice is Bisu 85%, Fanta 15% as far as I'm concerned. Whoever is planned to ace needs to plan to face Flash.
For regular line-up, Best should be the choice to face Flash. Best has little chance at beating any Zerg with remotely any skill and his PvP isn't all that hot either, but his PvT might be top 3 right now in all BW and has strong head-to-head vs Flash both lifetime and recently.
To keep away from Flash are Bisu and Fanta. Both these players have a very high chance of winning against pretty much any other KT player, so rather than risking them on Flash it makes sense to secure "auto-wins."
Stats is potentially the other player to watch out. T1's obvious choice is Soo. Stats is a player who sometimes sucks donkey balls and other times makes you think "S-class," so you don't really want to put him against Bisu or Fanta, although it's not as bad as putting them against Flash. Ssak would get crushed by Stats and S2 and Hyuk (although I'm thinking he won't play) have some chance but just aren't as good at ZvP as Soo (although they are better at ZvZ I think -- so I'd plan to use them against KT's Zergs).
Hoejja is really known for his ZvP so T1 shouldn't worry too hard about him since Bisu should walk over him and Best is an autoloss against a decent Zerg anyway. Action could be a concern because like Stats he's know for busting it out, but lately he sucks. As for Perfective, we really haven't seen enough of him for me to make an informed statement, but he appears to be yet another ZvP sniper.
That's basically my game plan if I'm T1. Best v Flash Soo v Stats Bisu v Crazy-Hydra Fanta v Roo s2 v Action Ssak/Hyuk v Hoejja Ace: Bisu
On the flipside, if I'm KT I want Flash to get an autowin vs a SKT Zerg, I hit Stats against Ssak/s2/Hyuk for a high probability of a twofer, I put Action on either Fanta or Bisu and probably Hoejja on the other hoping to take one of them down but not risking either of my stars, I put any Zerg against Best and try to keep Roo in a clean-up position since he's doing well there. I risk planning 3 aces. Flash is my first and Stats is my second. If Flash is too injured and Stats loses, I put in my third ace who will plan a cheese build (whoever I think has the fortitude for it).
IF skt1 gets those lineups, I will fucking eat something hard and uncomfortable cus thats a nightmare for KTright there something ideal for KT would probally be Sun vs Flash Bisu vs Stats/Action hoejja vs Fantasy Crazy hydra vs Soo Barracks vs s2 Hoejja vs Best then I'd pick Stats/flash for ace depending on the map (if it's bloody ridge, stats could be sent to snipe bisu, and Stats would probally be able to beat fantasy on this map too) thats how I see it anyways, Sun vs Flash is ideal for KT since Sun isn't known for his PvT but rather his PvZ and while I think he could be taken down by a KT zerg (since we took down movie) it''s not worth risking when you have the best tvp in the world on your team. Cant make more likely lineups (rather than favorable) before i have the map order on my hands
Hrrrm, I'd disagree. KT's ideal goes something like: Flash v Zerg, preferrably Soo (knocks out T1's rising star and best ZvPer) Hoejja v Bisu Action v Fanta (hoping for Action to bring his A game S-game) Roo v Best (autowin for KT) Stats v Sun/Ssak/Hyuk Crazy-H/Barracks v s2
Maybe that's not perfect, but it gives you 2-3 autowins. Another possibility is to take a bit of a gamble and try to utilize Stats on Bisu or Fantasy, but on paper that would be a bad call since Bisu is #1 PvP by ELO and Fantasy is #3 vP by ELO only 19 ELO points away from #1 Flash. If you do that, put Action on the other, move Hoejja to Best and move Roo to Sun/Hyuk/s2, Crazy-H to Hyuk/s2/Ssak. That still gives you only 2 autowins but strengthens some of your other chances so you can win without even taking it to ace.
Again, Flash is my ace, Stats a back-up, and I'd choose a third back-up as well. Possibly take a flier on Perfective as third back-up. Now that it occurs to me, if I'm T1 and whoever faces Flash is losing I tell them to deliberately practice bad gg timing in order to make Flash less able to give 100% in ace.
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
Why shouldn't he be top 3? What does the number of games he's played so far have to do with anything?
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
Why shouldn't he be top 3? What does the number of games he's played so far have to do with anything?
Matters a lot. It's kind of an ongoing punishment that he won't get ranked as high as people in both the OSL and MSL because they play OSL games over him, and some dudes like flash sweep their OSL group. For instance, you could be one of the best players around it doesn't matter if you don't play a game for 6 months! (effort :D)
Yeah but JD looks to be dropping from the OSL and potentially Hydra could still drop. Even if JD is saved in a tie-breaker, I'd be inclined to say he's less hot right now than Bisu.
i just think there are other people more deserving of a top 3 spot than bisu. flash, killer and fantasy 3-0ed their OSL groups. zero and soulkey are 7-2 this month. what has bisu done? won a proleague match and gotten out of his MST group, id say he's not as 'hot' as the others i've mentioned this month. his hotness for being awesome in proleague is starting to fade i think. and there was the argument last month that bisu would be punished for not being in the OSL
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
Why shouldn't he be top 3? What does the number of games he's played so far have to do with anything?
Matters a lot. It's kind of an ongoing punishment that he won't get ranked as high as people in both the OSL and MSL because they play OSL games over him, and some dudes like flash sweep their OSL group. For instance, you could be one of the best players around it doesn't matter if you don't play a game for 6 months! (effort :D)
If you punish Bisu for not playing much this month, you are punishing him for helping his team get first place in PL and seeded into the final. If SKT had to fight its way through the PL playoffs, we would have seen more games from Bisu for sure, and judging from his recent PL performances he probably would have done quite well.
You can punish Bisu for not having OSL games to play, but you have to give him credit for not having to play any PL games. He's won what he had to win this month.
On July 29 2011 11:06 oldgregg wrote: i just think there are other people more deserving of a top 3 spot than bisu. flash, killer and fantasy 3-0ed their OSL groups. zero and soulkey are 7-2 this month. what has bisu done? won a proleague match and gotten out of his MST group, id say he's not as 'hot' as the others i've mentioned this month. his hotness for being awesome in proleague is starting to fade i think. and there was the argument last month that bisu would be punished for not being in the OSL
It's not just about having a good W/L ratio. Obviously Flash still looks to be #1 but you can't argue that Killer and Fantasy suddenly look really 'powerful' because they're winning games. Neither of them have an aura nor can you seriously say they could take Bisu on.
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
Why shouldn't he be top 3? What does the number of games he's played so far have to do with anything?
Matters a lot. It's kind of an ongoing punishment that he won't get ranked as high as people in both the OSL and MSL because they play OSL games over him, and some dudes like flash sweep their OSL group. For instance, you could be one of the best players around it doesn't matter if you don't play a game for 6 months! (effort :D)
If you punish Bisu for not playing much this month, you are punishing him for helping his team get first place in PL and seeded into the final. If SKT had to fight its way through the PL playoffs, we would have seen more games from Bisu for sure, and judging from his recent PL performances he probably would have done quite well.
You can punish Bisu for not having OSL games to play, but you have to give him credit for not having to play any PL games. He's won what he had to win this month.
I specifically pointed out how it's because he's not in OSL. He's gonna be top 5 because he dominated proleague and made it past MST. He'd have a shot at #1 if he was in OSL.
On July 28 2011 01:09 Mortality wrote: Even with a tie-breaker possibility, JD can at best be #4 on the PR, and that's assuming Hydra decides to suck. No way do I see JD being ahead of Zero or Bisu right now, let alone Flash.
why should bisu be in the top 3? he's not in the OSL and has only played 3 games so far this month
Why shouldn't he be top 3? What does the number of games he's played so far have to do with anything?
Matters a lot. It's kind of an ongoing punishment that he won't get ranked as high as people in both the OSL and MSL because they play OSL games over him, and some dudes like flash sweep their OSL group. For instance, you could be one of the best players around it doesn't matter if you don't play a game for 6 months! (effort :D)
If you punish Bisu for not playing much this month, you are punishing him for helping his team get first place in PL and seeded into the final. If SKT had to fight its way through the PL playoffs, we would have seen more games from Bisu for sure, and judging from his recent PL performances he probably would have done quite well.
You can punish Bisu for not having OSL games to play, but you have to give him credit for not having to play any PL games. He's won what he had to win this month.
I specifically pointed out how it's because he's not in OSL. He's gonna be top 5 because he dominated proleague and made it past MST. He'd have a shot at #1 if he was in OSL.
Personally if SKT wins the Grand Finals, and Bisu beat Flash at least once there (again IF).. I will nominate Bisu as number 1.
Once again, can we remember that PR does not start over as a blank slate every month? There is absolutely NO POINT to doing a PR if all you want is to look at win/loss results for the past month since all you need to do is open up TLPD to find out.
Fantasy might have done more (so far) this month, but Fantasy is also starting from much farther behind. Fantasy has to PROVE that his slump is behind him. Bisu is not in a slump and has not been in a slump for a long time now. Bisu is SKT's star going into this playoff match with KT, not Fantasy, because Bisu has done more to prove his strength for months. Plural.
It's nice to recognize players that are on the way up, but there's no reason to be putting these people ahead of Bisu unless Bisu drops games in the grand final.
I'm so confused right now. I have no clue what's going on in the ESPORTS world of Brood War [though the sidebar tells me stuff isn't going so hot?] and China scares me.
On July 29 2011 19:12 flamewheel wrote: I'm so confused right now. I have no clue what's going on in the ESPORTS world of Brood War [though the sidebar tells me stuff isn't going so hot?] and China scares me.
Also Jaedong :[
But Harem are you happy?
MSL might be in its last season, depending on how things go within the company. Flash is raping everyone. Zero is super hot lately. JD is out. That's about all you need to know.
I think the next PR should be posted now, not next week, BEFORE all that games, because otherweise there will be some disadvantages for some players that didn't play many games this month but still deserve PR spot.
Example: after those games Bisu should be lowered and Fantasy and Movie got out of PR since they haven't played much. Also Snow made some brilliant vZ games but lost, so it's tricky...
There's an argument either way. I'd put one out now if you also wanted to do a PR in august. Otherwise, wait for PL finals and make it July/August combo PR.
On July 30 2011 06:47 Phradamon wrote: I think the next PR should be posted now, not next week, BEFORE all that games, because otherweise there will be some disadvantages for some players that didn't play many games this month but still deserve PR spot.
Example: after those games Bisu should be lowered and Fantasy and Movie got out of PR since they haven't played much. Also Snow made some brilliant vZ games but lost, so it's tricky...
If you want Flamewheel to write a Power Rank when HE HAS NOT SEEN ANY GAME because he is staying in a foreign country then you are out of your mind.
And your example does not make sense.
Edit:
On July 30 2011 13:00 ShadeR wrote: If this was pokemon.... Flamewheel is paralyzed??? Time to sub in Mortality!!! gogogogo
I'm honored but I haven't seen that many games this month either. My ranking would be based largely on past data, comparing it to this past month's data, and then doing some interpolation. Well, at least #1 should be the same on every sane person's list...
On July 31 2011 08:30 Phradamon wrote: Yes, i do want an august PR, after all it's a monthly status...
Dear god, you want the players to be ranked even if the person ranking them HAS NOT WATCHED ANY STARCRAFT AT ALL? Do you even realize what you are saying or did you not understand the 4 or 5 previous times it has been mentioned in this thread? If all you want is raw numbers, go fucking open TLPD and take a look yourself.
On July 31 2011 08:30 Phradamon wrote: Yes, i do want an august PR, after all it's a monthly status...
Dear god, you want the players to be ranked even if the person ranking them HAS NOT WATCHED ANY STARCRAFT AT ALL? Do you even realize what you are saying or did you not understand the 4 or 5 previous times it has been mentioned in this thread? If all you want is raw numbers, go fucking open TLPD and take a look yourself.
To be fair, this sounds like the problem of the PR maker and it's not unfair for people to want a consistently dated PR writeup. Whenever the incumbent PR writer can't do it for a month they usually just hand it over for that month then come back, ala Manifesto.
On July 31 2011 08:30 Phradamon wrote: Yes, i do want an august PR, after all it's a monthly status...
Dear god, you want the players to be ranked even if the person ranking them HAS NOT WATCHED ANY STARCRAFT AT ALL? Do you even realize what you are saying or did you not understand the 4 or 5 previous times it has been mentioned in this thread? If all you want is raw numbers, go fucking open TLPD and take a look yourself.
To be fair, this sounds like the problem of the PR maker and it's not unfair for people to want a consistently dated PR writeup. Whenever the incumbent PR writer can't do it for a month they usually just hand it over for that month then come back, ala Manifesto.
I dont know, i was under the impression that the PR never had a "monthly deadline" of any sort. It usually is on the whim of the writer that we get the PR at XYZ time. "PR must be up by the first of August" to me is just a misinformed selfish want from people, they arent promised that.
So whats wrong with waiting for some important result this month, especially if that coincides with some busy schedule on the writer's part?
I don't think Jangbi deserves #10. CBNC maybe. These last osl wins might make up for dropping the ones before them, but not for tanking the playoffs. Overall in July Jangbi didn't live to the hype he built up the previous month.
We'll see how his new momentum works for him in August.
Yeah he didn't live up to the hype, but he was ranked #6 this month. So a 3-4 point drop for the playoff disappointments, but he advanced in both the OSL and MST which is no easy feat (even if Hyuk did it, again).
Jangbi's only 5-6 in July, but then, look at who he lost to: Jaedong, Soulkey, Zero x2, Killer and Calm. All zergs, and all except for Killer are at least 60% ZVP. Most people he beat aren't exactly great VP players of course, but advancing in OSL and MSL isn't something that most players do. Plus, his game against Jaedong. Come on.
The only reason I'm leaning towards CBNC for Jangbi rather than PR is that there are so many other people who delivered results this month. Rank 6 to CBNC is not really an issue. Shit happens. Or in Jangbi's case, playing stronger players happens.
On July 31 2011 16:00 Crisium wrote: Yeah he didn't live up to the hype, but he was ranked #6 this month. So a 3-4 point drop for the playoff disappointments, but he advanced in both the OSL and MST which is no easy feat (even if Hyuk did it, again).
But that is true of all players in the OSL Ro8 except Killer.
Killer, undoubtedly. I've seen every game this month besides a few in the MST (mostly loser's matches) and Killer has impressed me greatly. It wasn't that long ago that he was the joke Zerg that you wondered how could he be so bad when Jaedong was his teammate. But not anymore! He's performed better in PL, and I heard his praise being sung as the Ro16 approached, but I was skeptical. But his wins have shown power, and I can't help but feel he is a top contender right now. And that's what the PR should be about: feeling the threatening aura of a player. As I watched his three OSL wins, I saw him show that he is capable of outright dominating other high end professional Broodwar players. The Guardians against Baby were hot stuff.
I can't believe some still won't recognize killer has his place in this month's top 10... mini-dong is in a spectacular form right now (and has been doing quite well for a while now)
In regards to CBNC, would it be possible for Leta to be mentioned? I think he only played two games but with both he won and both were amazing games. Again, not in top 10 since he hasn't really played, but I'm hoping that he gets mentioned ^.^
On August 01 2011 20:23 ffreakk wrote: Should we mention Hyvaa in CBNC too, or maybe just a shoutout? Since + Show Spoiler +
He just All-Killed Khan
, n all :D.
i'm going to have to say no here, if only because zero and soulkey got screwed out of a PR spot last year due to the PR writer arbitrarily saying STX Masters doesn't count for anything, seeming purely due to anti-stars bias
On August 01 2011 20:25 MisteR wrote: Hyvaa for PR?
Hes a one matchup wonder, he just dont seem to be able to win ZvT or ZvZ (yeah yeah he beat JD, but was on a 5 game loss streak before that). That said hes ZvP seems to be absolute on fire, playing some rock solid management. 9-1 this year and he beat Bisu 2-1 in offliners. Until he shows something more in ZvT\ZvZ its kinda hard to PR him imo.
And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC.
On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC.
To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments.
That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again.
Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC.
On August 02 2011 08:26 Zariel wrote: Hyvaa got the all kill yesterday, 1st of august, I thought we could only consider games from 1st july the 31st
The PR won't be posted until after SPL finals though, because flamewheel is out of the country (and hasn't had time to follow games closely). Next PR will start after that.
On August 01 2011 19:55 moopie wrote: I think this settles the "Jangbi should stay on the PR" thing.. better luck next month.
For losing in a show-match when he's got a date with Flash coming up? Granted hyvaa's a nobody, but still he's a nobody in the OSL Ro8...
I wouldn't be putting him higher than 7-8 probably, but dual leagues counts for a lot imo even if his playoffs were shaky.
I'm not buying the "lots of people to put above him" argument. There's Flash, Hydra, Bisu, JD, fantasy, ZerO, Soulkey, n.die_soO all with strong arguments, but all except Flash (and soO, oddly) have negatives against them right now.
I won't be excessively upset if he's left off, because he's been a little lucky and his PL 0-3 wasn't good, but I still think he's good for a low spot.
On August 01 2011 19:55 moopie wrote: I think this settles the "Jangbi should stay on the PR" thing.. better luck next month.
For losing in a show-match when he's got a date with Flash coming up? Granted hyvaa's a nobody, but still he's a nobody in the OSL Ro8...
I wouldn't be putting him higher than 7-8 probably, but dual leagues counts for a lot imo even if his playoffs were shaky.
I'm not buying the "lots of people to put above him" argument. There's Flash, Hydra, Bisu, JD, fantasy, ZerO, Soulkey, n.die_soO all with strong arguments, but all except Flash (and soO, oddly) have negatives against them right now.
I won't be excessively upset if he's left off, because he's been a little lucky and his PL 0-3 wasn't good, but I still think he's good for a low spot.
What has fantasy done to grant him a spot on the rank?
On August 01 2011 19:55 moopie wrote: I think this settles the "Jangbi should stay on the PR" thing.. better luck next month.
For losing in a show-match when he's got a date with Flash coming up? Granted hyvaa's a nobody, but still he's a nobody in the OSL Ro8...
I wouldn't be putting him higher than 7-8 probably, but dual leagues counts for a lot imo even if his playoffs were shaky.
I'm not buying the "lots of people to put above him" argument. There's Flash, Hydra, Bisu, JD, fantasy, ZerO, Soulkey, n.die_soO all with strong arguments, but all except Flash (and soO, oddly) have negatives against them right now.
I won't be excessively upset if he's left off, because he's been a little lucky and his PL 0-3 wasn't good, but I still think he's good for a low spot.
What has fantasy done to grant him a spot on the rank?
Winning every single game that he played this month? I believe there are many that believe he has gone back to form due to his lack of losses recently.
Its true though, that after his 6-loss-streak a while ago, many are still skeptical.
It's not like Fantasy's slump was catastrophic. He won an OSL, owned in WL, and then had a tough three months going 8 - 13, but only 2 losses were in the individual leagues; the rest were PL where SKT had a comfortable lead and the matches were comparatively less important. If you're going to have a bad stretch (and everybody does), that's not really too bad.
EDIT: Damn, hit post before I meant to I think the only contenders for #1 following PL finals are Flash-Obvious choice, if KT loses or he falls apart then he could not get #1 Bisu-Proleague MVP, needs to beat flash or win two games in PL finals Fantasy-Great in OSL, if he takes Flash down in PL Finals I can see giving him #1, but he is going to need, like Bisu Win two games, preferably one of which being Flash (or Stats if KT is crazy and doesn't send Flash in the ace match)-He is a veeeeeery long shot for #1 though
So essentially, I think #1 is going to go to whoever wins their team the PL finals, or possibly Flash if he does well but the rest of his team falls apart and loses outside of Ace (even then I'd be very tempted to give Bisu or Fantasy #1. Outside of #1 I just have to agree with those who argue for Jangbi/Killer to get lower spots on the rank, because both have been playing pretty damn well. I think I can forgive Jangbi's poor win/loss ratio 5-6 when I notice that four of those losses were to Jaedong, Soulkey and x2 to Zero (and I thought Jangbi played pretty in those games)
The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Yeah, it seems like whenever there's a big game coming up, people decide that its outcome will determine PR, regardless of the results that have come before.
I mean, seriously, Flash is well ahead of Bisu such that one or two games shouldn't make a difference, PL finals or not.
On August 02 2011 13:19 Zaxro wrote: EDIT: Damn, hit post before I meant to I think the only contenders for #1 following PL finals are Flash-Obvious choice, if KT loses or he falls apart then he could not get #1 Bisu-Proleague MVP, needs to beat flash or win two games in PL finals Fantasy-Great in OSL, if he takes Flash down in PL Finals I can see giving him #1, but he is going to need, like Bisu Win two games, preferably one of which being Flash (or Stats if KT is crazy and doesn't send Flash in the ace match)-He is a veeeeeery long shot for #1 though
So essentially, I think #1 is going to go to whoever wins their team the PL finals, or possibly Flash if he does well but the rest of his team falls apart and loses outside of Ace (even then I'd be very tempted to give Bisu or Fantasy #1. Outside of #1 I just have to agree with those who argue for Jangbi/Killer to get lower spots on the rank, because both have been playing pretty damn well. I think I can forgive Jangbi's poor win/loss ratio 5-6 when I notice that four of those losses were to Jaedong, Soulkey and x2 to Zero (and I thought Jangbi played pretty in those games)
Nobody else is even close to Flash right now in terms of contenders for #1. The only way I could really see Flash not being #1 is if he loses to one of SKT's rookies in a terrible game, and even then I'd be likely to think it's a fluke. Even if Bisu or Fantasy beats Flash in an amazing game, that's not nearly enough to put either of them over him.
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals?
Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR.
On August 02 2011 13:19 Zaxro wrote: EDIT: Damn, hit post before I meant to I think the only contenders for #1 following PL finals are Flash-Obvious choice, if KT loses or he falls apart then he could not get #1 Bisu-Proleague MVP, needs to beat flash or win two games in PL finals Fantasy-Great in OSL, if he takes Flash down in PL Finals I can see giving him #1, but he is going to need, like Bisu Win two games, preferably one of which being Flash (or Stats if KT is crazy and doesn't send Flash in the ace match)-He is a veeeeeery long shot for #1 though
So essentially, I think #1 is going to go to whoever wins their team the PL finals, or possibly Flash if he does well but the rest of his team falls apart and loses outside of Ace (even then I'd be very tempted to give Bisu or Fantasy #1. Outside of #1 I just have to agree with those who argue for Jangbi/Killer to get lower spots on the rank, because both have been playing pretty damn well. I think I can forgive Jangbi's poor win/loss ratio 5-6 when I notice that four of those losses were to Jaedong, Soulkey and x2 to Zero (and I thought Jangbi played pretty in those games)
Nobody else is even close to Flash right now in terms of contenders for #1. The only way I could really see Flash not being #1 is if he loses to one of SKT's rookies in a terrible game, and even then I'd be likely to think it's a fluke. Even if Bisu or Fantasy beats Flash in an amazing game, that's not nearly enough to put either of them over him.
I think most realistic scenarios Flash is going to be #1, but my post was saying that Bisu or Fantasy could steal it from him depending on how the finals. For that to happen though is very unlikely (I take what I said back, if KT goes 1-4 with a Flash win I would still likely give Flash #1, Flash would need to drop games that led to a SKT victory for me to not have him at #1). But if either Fantasy or Bisu win two games (including at least a win over Flash) in the finals I could justify them at #1 for being the force that won PL finals for SKT
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals?
Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR.
Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then.
Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way.
Only one person has the chance to snatch the #1 from Flash, and that's Bisu. Say that he for example beats Flash twice in straight up games in the PL finals, then it would be silly not to place him at the top.
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals?
Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR.
Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then.
Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way.
Saying a word twice is spamming? What are you even talking about? Why are you referring to yourself as "the opposing side"? Incidentally, pretty sure that saying "Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot." is a lot more negative than using the word "farcical".
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals?
Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR.
Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then.
Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way.
Saying a word twice is spamming? What are you even talking about? Why are you referring to yourself as "the opposing side"? Incidentally, pretty sure that saying "Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot." is a lot more negative than using the word "farcical".
If that came off wrong, i apologize. Maybe "KT fans" would have been better, but either way i didnt mean it badly by any means.
Imo, Flash is the number 1 player at the moment, but after his MSL he hasnt been invincible enough that his throne is unshakable in light of a upcoming event as major as SPL Grand Finals. Depending on his performance (and Bisu's, whos the "challenger") in the Grand Finals, a take over might be possible, however unlikely.
On August 02 2011 14:41 Winechu wrote: The only contender for the number 1 spot is Flash, PL finals regardless. To even say Fantasy in contention for the number 1 spot? I sincerely hope that you're not serious. Nope, not even by a long shot. He isn't even on July's PR.
Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot.
But Bisu too has been going very strong for a while now. Outside that 1-2 loss to Hyvaa, he has quite a lot under his belt this season. And if he is key in winning the upcoming SPL Grand Finals (especially winning 2 games), i dont see anything wrong with giving him #1. After all, isnt SPL Grand Finals the most important event every year? Sure Flash does well in the playoff, dropping only 3 games, and playing well even in those losses (outside of that Shuttle game), but playoff isnt gonna compare to Grand Finals no? I mean, losing the Grand Finals renders anything victory in the Playoffs pointless.. Kinda. =/
It's completely farcical to suggest that. Bisu played 3 freaking games this month, amongst his opponents Songduri and Skyhigh (hint: they're bad), his only opponent of note is Baby, who doesn't seem to know how to play TvP recently (i.e. his games against jangbi). Compare it to Flash (who by the way, qualified for the OSL) who was a pivotal driving force in KT's run and delivered impressive games.
Losing the Grand Finals renders every other victory pointless? Wow. Your bolded part makes me speechless. Why bother considering any other games other than those in the finals then. In fact, just give the winning players of the GF's winning team a spot on the PR. I'm sure since Paralyze beat Flash in the GF, he must be worthy of a rank. Because only games in the GFs matter. Even if Zero was impressive, his team lost so his wins were pointless. Ridiculous.
And by the way, SPL GF is still a team series. Bisu can't win the final on his own.
You cannot be serious.
You are overreacting.. While i might not have phrased it too clearly, the conclusion that i gave for "losing in the finals makes playoffs victories pointless" is: The Grand Finals games are more important than the playoffs games. I believe you can find that line in my original post that you quoted.
And i thought we have gone through this many times before, that a PR doesnt strictly cover just that month? That while past games holds less importance, they are also put into consideration when analyzing a player's spot on PR.
For your information, Flash was rank #1 last month. The only thing he did was 3-0ign MSL finals, into 5 PL loss streak. But he was number 1, and nobody disputed that.
Even so, cumulated games in the POs can't compare to a game in the grand finals?
Even if you go by past performance, Flash has been more impressive, which is why I neglected to even bring that up. That you brought up the fact that Flash is the incumbent number one makes it even more farcical. Consider their places in July's PR.
Alright, it is clear that we wont be agreeing on this matter. I ll just be waiting for Saturday, while stocking up on my snacks reserve then.
Also, i personally would have preferred it if you would refrain from spamming words like "farcical". It is unnecessarily negative, and i believe the opposing side did nothing more damnable than simply disagreeing with you in a civilised way.
Incidentally, pretty sure that saying "Of course i dont expect KT boys to agree to put anyone but Flash on the #1 spot." is a lot more negative than using the word "farcical".
Not at all. You must look at the blunt meaning of these words. Not your speculation of poster's implication.
On August 03 2011 04:45 FlaShFTW wrote: are we gonna see the august PR? or is flamewheel waiting for the SPL finals to be over with so he can move up all the KT members once they win?
Learn to read the rest of the thread? You can at the very least press "all" and then ctrl+f and search for key word (try: next).
I don't see why we are arguing about Flash's position as #1. Bisu will have to walk on mother fucking water in order to steal that spot from Flash. And I mean, against good opponents, one of which should be named Flash. Fantasy has no chance at #1. None. Top 3 maybe, but you don't go from 0 to 1 just off a handful of wins following a really bad slump. You don't. Zero would be a much better #1 candidate and as of right this instance, Zero is #2 behind Flash. But I'm not sure Zero plays any more games before the rank goes up.
On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC.
To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments.
That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again.
Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC.
In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years).
Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course).
On August 03 2011 06:37 Crisium wrote: If Bisu happens to play Flash twice in the SPL finals and beat him 2-0, then yes, Bisu should be #1.
But honestly, that is the only scenario possible.
I believe in this outcome bisu should be ahead. maybe if bisu roflstomps flash in one game and wins another then he could also be #1. Otherwise you might as well give it to flash
On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC.
To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments.
That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again.
Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC.
In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years).
Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course).
Hes a lot like fbh used to be (tho fbh had way better overall mechanics and had everything going for him beeing a good tvp player) he should be able to win games, but just end up losing. While his micro was superb, but his macro was rather meh, and regardless how "well" you play it does not matter when you just keep on losing because of terrible descionmaking. I remember so many times watching casy play and just shake my head in disbelief as he would lose in horrible ways.
i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote: i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I (along with some others, for sure) dont necessarily agree with this.
Sure Flash is strong right now, and all else unchanged, he will sit atop the PR again. But since after the MSL, he has been mortal enough for me to believe that his PR throne is shakable (only by 1 player at the moment). SPL Grand Finals performance is very importatnt, and may provide a big enough blow to usurp Flash' place.
Im not saying its likely, im saying that imo it is possible.
On August 02 2011 01:35 TwoToneTerran wrote: And yet Best can only play PvT and people are arguing to give him a mid spot. Sometimes doing REALLY well in one matchup can be enough. Casy's done it!
That said Hyvaa is out of the OSL so that should be it for him getting on the PR. Toss him a CBNC.
To be fair, Best is better in his PvP at least than hyvva is in his 2 weak matchups. While his PvZ is kinda terrible, he can still win PvP even if hes not done very good this year (but he was in a terrible slump overall losing lots of PvTs also) and he still holds on of the best lifetime PvP stats. Also beating flash several games helps him out in the PR arguments.
That said I would not put best on the PR either until he proves he can win PvP again.
Casy during his peak was good at TvT as well as TvZ, but hes probably the worst TvPer of any progamer. Tho in his defense when he won that OSL he actually won a couple of TvPs IIRC.
In fairness, Casy's TvP was not even close to the worst among all progamers, only the worst among that tier of progamers (on and off but fairly consistently a top 10 level player for about 3-4 years).
Also in fairness, Casy could play non-standard TvP's just fine, really well in fact, such as his win against Anytime on 815 where he used marine + wraith (a strong strategy for the map... if you have the execution ability). What he was never good at was midgame timing sense in a standard take 2 base and macro up to 200 style throwdown. When you get down to it, standard TvP is really all about midgame timing. When you expand, when you add additional factories: these are the things that make or break your ability to macro. And of course, choosing the correct moment to strike is imperative... well, you already know all that... What I mean to say is that his TvP had all the ingredients, but lacked the timing sense that would enable him to put it all together. This was never a problem for him in TvZ and in TvT timing isn't really that important (relatively speaking, of course).
Hes a lot like fbh used to be (tho fbh had way better overall mechanics and had everything going for him beeing a good tvp player) he should be able to win games, but just end up losing. While his micro was superb, but his macro was rather meh, and regardless how "well" you play it does not matter when you just keep on losing because of terrible descionmaking. I remember so many times watching casy play and just shake my head in disbelief as he would lose in horrible ways.
But as I said, it was really his timing ability that was killing him. It was like he was missing one skill and it always looked ugly. His macro wasn't bad because of mechanics, but because he had no timing sense to back it up. Every loss I remember boiled down to timing mistakes.
FBH also had some timing problems, but not in the same ways or degrees. He could actually pull off a very good early-midgame timing push. I don't think that's the best comparison.
On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote: i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't.
PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year.
Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
notice how its all T1 fans who are calling for bisu to be number one. how can he just jump up to number one based on his previous performance this year? that should have been counted for in previous PRs, you cant just jump to number one off only 1-2 games when other people have performed better than you this month.
On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote: i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't.
PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year.
Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
I believe that performing in multiple leagues > performing to snipe mediocre players on certain maps in proleague.
If you're gonna talk about past histories then you've missed a biggy. He was knocked out of MSL prelims this year by hyvaa. That's his best MU in a Bo3.
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of his opponents have been sub par with Bisu seldomly being sent in to play the ACE match.
A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them.
2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago.
On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon.
3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time...
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
most SKT fans mindlessly support bisu; likely because a lot of the SKT fans actually come from the SC2 forums for some reason
therefore it is pointless to argue with SKT fans in the BW forums
i think it is the general consensus amongst non-SKT fans that unless Flash drops 2 games to bisu in SPL finals, his #1 position is rather solid
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them.
2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago.
On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon.
3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time...
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here?
On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote: i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't.
PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year.
Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
I believe that performing in multiple leagues > performing to snipe mediocre players on certain maps in proleague.
If you're gonna talk about past histories then you've missed a biggy. He was knocked out of MSL prelims this year by hyvaa. That's his best MU in a Bo3.
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of his opponents have been sub par with Bisu seldomly being sent in to play the ACE match.
Apparently you don't pay enough attention to Starcraft. I already covered the loss to hyvaa "...dropping from OSL prelims (again)"...which was NOT MSL, but OSL as I correctly stated the first time.
Of course doing well in multiple leagues is the goal. Bisu's inability to up his game for individual leagues is bad. He hasn't been playing poorly in individual leagues (although, please actually WATCH the games vs hyvaa instead of just hiding behind the result which everybody and their grandmother already knows), he just can't step his game up or vary his approach. Everyone knows that Bisu plays a Bisu style match every single game (whereas Flash, for instance, can vary his strategy and mindset a great deal) and because he's not NaDa he can't pull it off (at one point early in his career and before coaches played a relevant role in SC, NaDa would always follow a win with a rush in bo3, which is why so many of his bo3 results were WLW... everyone knew he was rushing; but in NaDa's case he was so far above everyone he could do stupid shit like that and win the series anyway).
But it has to be granted to Bisu that he's absolutely phenomenally good at what he does. And although he favors certain maps so does everyone, including Flash. Maps aren't the issue why he fails to advance in individual leagues.
Bisu is the primary ace player for SKT so I do not understand this remark. If he rarely plays ace it's because SKT matches rarely go to ace. A lot of his recent opponents have been subpar, this is true, but he's played and beaten a lot of strong players this year as well and there's no indication he has gotten worse. If anything, his wins continue looking super clean.
If Bisu carries SKT over KT including toppling Flash then I see no reason to deny him. That is all I have been saying. Important wins when the chips are down will put his past wins in perspective.
Obviously Bisu is not top 2 so far this PR period. Flash is the clear #1 and Zero has earned #2. #3 is probably Bisu because Hydra has been a bit inconsistent and JD has lost JvZ. But any kind of failure in the GF will probably push Hydra over Bisu. JD, having dropped out of OSL and not having been in the playoffs, is in a bad spot.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them.
2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago.
On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon.
3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time...
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here?
Yeah, one time Flash was knocked out of both the OSL and MSL. This was after making 6 straight finals, and he won the very next MSL and is in the current OSL. Compared to Bisu, who was knocked out of the very same OSL and MSLs, plus several before those, and the ones after, except for the current MSL.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: A quick visit to the TLPD would likely show you that the quality of opponent for Bisu this year is similar to that of Jaedong or Flash.
Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake. Hyvaa played well, and he has been on a huge vP tear up till now. Everyone randomly drop games (Flash to Shuttle in Playoff for example), even more so if their opponent played well. Flash got knocked out of last OSL by Hyuk too, cmon.
And yea, clearly performing in SPL is simply "performing to snipe mediocre players". Wonder if you spoke in this same tone back when Flash set the most-win-ever record.
1. Flash/Jaedong get sent out on ACE matches on a regular basis. They literally play the best of what their opposing sides have and show incredible consistency beating them.
2. I don't think you can sully the name of the current MSL champion by reminding everyone how he was hyuked in a bo1 in OSL ro32 months ago.
On the other hand, Bisu getting kicked out of MSL by hyvaa is quite a recent phenomenon.
3. I don't know how you can compare Flash's most wins record vs Bisu...the guy won MSL, OSL and Proleague finals at the same time...
Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all. So he won 63 games in SPL and lost 1 game in OSL transits to he is the hero of SPL (above Flash and JD) and nothing in OSL. That's tough luck and it sometimes happens. Flash was knocked out of both MSL and OSL the last season. And by the way you mentioned Flash and Hyuk head to head record, he lost 1 game in his lifetime to Hyuk and that loss knocked him out of OSL. See my point here?
Yeah, one time Flash was knocked out of both the OSL and MSL. This was after making 6 straight finals, and he won the very next MSL and is in the current OSL. Compared to Bisu, who was knocked out of the very same OSL and MSLs, plus several before those, and the ones after, except for the current MSL.
I think what happened to Flash sets a good precedent for Bisu to be ABLE to take #1 PROVIDED the correct set of circumstances occur. Consider that while Flash had made 6 straight finals, there was that extra long gap between seasons, so those events were pretty far in the rearview mirror when suddenly, out of nowhere, Flash played like suck. Flash didn't just have bad luck, he played like suck. It was like watching your average low/mid A-class player, not an S-class giant. And some people blamed Icarus for his loss to Hyuk, but it was just a terrible game.
Flash dropped to #5 on the next ranking. It was deserved. He dropped from both leagues and his last SL title had been earned something like 3 months ago.
The next ranking, what happened? Flash played very well in SWL and was elevated back to #1.
Bisu didn't play like suck against hyvaa. Hyvaa prepared well and it showed, and hyvaa happens to be a moderately strong ZvPer right now. He did everything he could to prevent Bisu from playing a Bisu style match and it worked, just barely. Obviously that has to be held against Bisu, but it does not raise any new questions about his skill; only verifies something we already knew.
Bisu right now is in a holding pattern. He's been raping opponents left and right, but for 2 months he has had easy games. He's played tough players in 2011 (and won a lot of those), but not so much recently. This means we don't see anything new when we see Bisu play -- just more proof that S-class > low A-class/B-class opponents with consistency. The GF are an opportunity for Bisu to escape the holding pattern if he faces tough opponents. If Stats plays his best, he is a high level PvPer who will be a good test to see if Bisu really is a clear #1 PvP or if nobody is distinguishable. And beating Flash at least once is a MUST for overtaking Flash on the ranking, for more reasons than one.
Can you guys come to an agreement on the "past achievements" matter? Its mighty difficult to argue when people from the same side says both "he plays only 3 games this month" and also Flash making 6 Straight Finals (for f sake, it's not even this season)
Im tempted to write another essay to reiterate the points you seemingly are refusing to see. But i probably cant put it better than Mortality did, so kindly read his post and agree/disagree as you see fit.
It's been well-established that Power Rank is a ranking released monthly, but is not a monthly rank (i.e. doesn't just take into account games for the prior month). The exact criteria is a little bit fuzzy—as it should be since it's not some objective statistical rank, but it should generally reflect the best and most feared players at any given time.
Flash was actually punished when he dropped out of both leagues. He dropped down to #5, just like Bisu is right now.
I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that.
It's impracticle to create a true "one month only" rank because pro SC does not follow a monthly schedule.
Regarding past results, they matter in the context of telling you what new results really mean.
Since the new PL season, Flash has won exactly one gold medal. I think that's the only gold medal relevant to this discussion. Of course, Flash is the #2 in PL with like 75% wins +/- as opposed to Bisu's 80% +/- and that's not a huge difference. And of course, the momentum Flash was losing after his MSL championship have been mostly recovered (although I'd hesitate to say "fully") since then. So far he has had the busiest and most difficult schedule of anyone and has done the best. None of the sensible posters are denying that.
But two games should be able to change the ranking. If Bisu did play Flash twice and win twice, it would even up their head-to-head results for the year. It would also establish Bisu as being on paper dominant against any opponent as it would put Bisu's PvT ELO higher than anyone's TvP ELO and his PvZ ELO is already higher than anyone's ZvP ELO (with results over JD backing this claim) and his PvP ELO is #1. But actually, I keep going back to the notion that I want to see him play Stats when Stats is playing his very utmust best as one of the two possible wins since PvP has been Bisu's weakest point in 2011 and I want to see that the weakness is closed for good before Bisu takes the top spot.
Bisu needs a "perfect storm" set of conditions to steal the top spot, but it's not outside the range of possibility and it would be deserved if he could do this. Of course it's not just whether he wins, but how he wins. Cheesing Flash for a victory might help the team, but it won't mean the same thing as a clean win in a macro game. Beating Stats is great for SKT, but it won't mean much for Bisu's rank unless Stats brings his best performance. Etc.
People keep talking stats (and usually BUTCHERING them in order to try to manipulate positions, rather than understand them) and continually ignoring QUALITY of performance. That's why these games are so important: Bisu has been showing lots of quality but against crap competition for 2 months. If he can show quality against the best, that will mean A LOT.
On August 04 2011 05:44 SimonB wrote: I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that.
I agree with this. The only way I can see Bisu as #1 is winning twice in the SPL finals including at least 1 decisive win over Flash. Short of that (like SKT winning with Bisu 1 win over KT zerg or even Flash) Flash is still the scarier person, but Bisu will be a solid #2. Flash has almost as many wins/win % in SPL, still dual-leaguing, and is just coming back from yet another fresh MSL win.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake.
It was the OSL, and its more than a mistake when it happens season after season after season. Bisu's last ro8 appearance for example was Avalon MSL (2 years ago). I am not saying this as related to the PR (as most of it is historical now) but I wouldn't say Bisu failing in individual leagues is a mistake at this point. He's like a stronger SPL version of Sea or Light. They dominate SPL, but nobody is surprised when they fail in leauges. Bisu has not been a threat in there for quite some time, as shown by the Individual League Ranking for this month. + Show Spoiler +
That's Sea at #19, Light at #32 and Bisu at #34
On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote: Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all.
Except he dropped a bo3 to hyvaa when he dropped out of the OSL, not bo1, so he had 2 chances to advance against hyvaa.
I think Bisu shouldn't get no.1 in any situation, despite the excellent analysis by Mortality. 2 wins over Flash or 1 win against Stats and another against Flash would simply highlight the benefit of preparation (as what happened to KT v SKT last year). It should, however, elevate him to no.1 contender status with the caveat that advancing in the individuals would probably mean overtaking Flash the following month.
I'm a rabid Flash fan, as you all might know, but even I think Bisu should get #1 if he takes down Flash twice (in proper games). That's pretty much the only scenario though, at the moment Flash is definitely the top dog.
1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. ZerO 4/5/6. Jaedong/Hydra/Soulkey 7. soO 8. Jangbi 9. Light 10. Leta/HoeJJa/roO/Modesty?/other
In light of that, I would put Bisu #1, iff
Bisu beats at least one S-class opponent: Flash, Stats playing well, HoeJJa's/Action's ZvP if they play at the top of their game AND Flash loses all games (=at least once), especially if he loses to a player who is not Bisu/BeSt/fantasy
So we could have: Flash loses, Bisu beats Stats (or other), SKT wins w/o ace OR Bisu beats Flash, SKT wins OR Flash loses, Bisu wins all games, Flash not sent for ace (regardless of team result)
What I don't think would give Bisu #1 would be this: Bisu wins a game (even against Flash), Flash loses, and then SKT wins in ace vs. Flash but with Bisu not as ace. If SKT has to play an ace game but doesn't send Bisu (on probably the most balanced PL map atm), they say "we don't think Bisu can beat Flash consistently even though he's our best player," and to me that means Bisu can't be #1.
On August 04 2011 05:44 SimonB wrote: I highly respect Bisu, and the only players I would take over him in general are Flash and Jaedong, but there's no denying he's been drowning over and over again in the individual leagues. I do not feel he deserves #1 even in the (unlikely) event that he could defeat Flash twice in the finals. Why? Because he hasn't distinguished himself the least bit for a long time. He had a fantastic year in proleague, but you can't put the entire weight of 60+ wins behind him or else you'd have to put the 55 wins of Flash along with a bunch more gold medals.Flash remains utterly fantastic, is in both leagues, won an MSL just a couple months ago, and has helped KT through three tough playoff matches (though not without a couple of hiccups). Two games shouldn't change of all that.
I agree with this. The only way I can see Bisu as #1 is winning twice in the SPL finals including at least 1 decisive win over Flash. Short of that (like SKT winning with Bisu 1 win over KT zerg or even Flash) Flash is still the scarier person, but Bisu will be a solid #2. Flash has almost as many wins/win % in SPL, still dual-leaguing, and is just coming back from yet another fresh MSL win.
On August 03 2011 23:06 ffreakk wrote: Never mind the "MSL" thing which was an honest mistake.
It was the OSL, and its more than a mistake when it happens season after season after season. Bisu's last ro8 appearance for example was Avalon MSL (2 years ago). I am not saying this as related to the PR (as most of it is historical now) but I wouldn't say Bisu failing in individual leagues is a mistake at this point. He's like a stronger SPL version of Sea or Light. They dominate SPL, but nobody is surprised when they fail in leauges. Bisu has not been a threat in there for quite some time, as shown by the Individual League Ranking for this month. + Show Spoiler +
On August 04 2011 03:39 chisuri wrote: Bisu lost to Hyyaa in OSL pre. And the difference between loss and win is one game. That's all.
Except he dropped a bo3 to hyvaa when he dropped out of the OSL, not bo1, so he had 2 chances to advance against hyvaa.
The "MSL" mistake was with the poster, who said that Hyvaa eliminated Bisu from the "MSL" which should have been OSL. Although i understand the hates as you are all too willing to grab at any little chance to pull another short essay just to go over Bisu's individual league results yet again, after it has been discussed at length many times over.
Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too.
On August 04 2011 12:32 ffreakk wrote: Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too.
The difference is that Bisu hasn't achieved anything at all in the Starleagues since early '09, roughly two years ago (he hasn't even reached the Bo5 stages a single time since then). He doesn't falter sometimes on rare occasions, like JD and Flash does, he falters every damn time.
On August 04 2011 12:32 ffreakk wrote: Flash lost to Ssak and Classic, Jaedong lost to Hyuk and Hyvaa. Cmon man, even the greatest of players falter sometimes too.
The difference is that Bisu hasn't achieved anything at all in the Starleagues since early '09, roughly two years ago (he hasn't even reached the Bo5 stages a single time since then). He doesn't falter sometimes on rare occasions, like JD and Flash does, he falters every damn time.
I believe on Power Ranks discussion, generally we only consider happenings of the current season yes? Else we would probably have Nada up there along with a good many others.
This season BIsu is: -knocked out of MSL by Stork (on some kind of monster form back then), and then Flash. No shame in losing to either of these players. -knocked out of the OSL prelims by Hyvaa. Now despite the fact that Hyvaa played well above his usual game (read: very well), it is a disappointment. But it is pretty much the only glaring faults of Bisu's this season.
You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
Quoting to correct wrong information is hardly personal attack. And he was right in that you just randomly threw false information out in hopes of winning arguments. Even after solid numbers have been given to you, you continue to deny it, or make light of the information by indirectly degrading players like Wookie, or the ones from ACE.
Also, its not like your beloved Flash doesnt play Ace game vs Air Force ACE. I at least remember that game vs Ggaemo, in the same series that he lost to Much.
A quick visit to TLPD would likely reveal all of that statistics that Oystein mentioned. But clearly you either cant be bothered with facts or cant be bothered with the truth. Only thing i see you do is doubting his post, asking for link, without ever trying to justify your opinion with statistics of your own.
Bisu: Total games played in SPL 10-11: 40 (35-5) Ace matches: vs Soulkey (26/10) vs Kal (01/12) vs Ggaemo (23/04) vs Zero (04/05) vs Bogus (11/05) vs Wookie (22/06)
Flash: Total games played in SPL 10-11 36 (26-10) (stats before playoffs) Ace matches: vs BeSt (16/10) vs Turn (30/11) vs Hydra (01/05) vs Ggaemo (07/05)
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
So what your saying is that you checked a few LR threads, decided to draw a conclusion from that despite having no idea of the actual numbers and then keep on defending your WRONGLY opinion like its facts?
As Ffreak pointed out we have this awesome little thing on TL called TLPD (you have been a member since 07 so I would assume you know about it) where you can get all the info you need if you bother to look, something you clearly have not, and then you still have the balls to call me out on sources despite in the next sentence admitting you had absolutely no idea about what you where talking about in the first place.....
Maybe I am a bit rude, it happens in the heat of the moment when im posting, and for that I am sorry if you felt offended, but I will keep on calling out people who speaks out of some fantasy existence without root in the real world. People can have different opinions from me that is fine, but if your gonna post stats\numbers and keep on defending them when people are calling you out on them and they are taking their time to reply to you at least do us a favor and actually check your facts the next time.
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
So what your saying is that you checked a few LR threads, decided to draw a conclusion from that despite having no idea of the actual numbers and then keep on defending your WRONGLY opinion like its facts?
As Ffreak pointed out we have this awesome little thing on TL called TLPD (you have been a member since 07 so I would assume you know about it) where you can get all the info you need if you bother to look, something you clearly have not, and then you still have the balls to call me out on sources despite in the next sentence admitting you had absolutely no idea about what you where talking about in the first place.....
Maybe I am a bit rude, it happens in the heat of the moment when im posting, and for that I am sorry if you felt offended, but I will keep on calling out people who speaks out of some fantasy existence without root in the real world. People can have different opinions from me that is fine, but if your gonna post stats\numbers and keep on defending them when people are calling you out on them and they are taking their time to reply to you at least do us a favor and actually check your facts the next time.
I didn't post stats/numbers..I made a generalisation according to the information that I had at the time.
I still don't know how to see who played ACE matches and such but given the games that ffreak posted I will admit that I was wrong regarding the ACE match scenario..
Albeit, which shows us that the number of wins is rather close - the win/loss record is as follows: Bisu: 35 - 5 Flash: 32 - 13
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
His source is TLPD, which I dare say you need to visit more frequently...
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
His source is TLPD, which I dare say you need to visit more frequently...
And I dare say you should read the posts above you..>_>
On August 04 2011 12:08 VGhost wrote: For me, if the rank happened now, I would say:
1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. ZerO 4/5/6. Jaedong/Hydra/Soulkey 7. soO 8. Jangbi 9. Light 10. Leta/HoeJJa/roO/Modesty?/other
In light of that, I would put Bisu #1, iff
Bisu beats at least one S-class opponent: Flash, Stats playing well, HoeJJa's/Action's ZvP if they play at the top of their game AND Flash loses all games (=at least once), especially if he loses to a player who is not Bisu/BeSt/fantasy
So we could have: Flash loses, Bisu beats Stats (or other), SKT wins w/o ace OR Bisu beats Flash, SKT wins OR Flash loses, Bisu wins all games, Flash not sent for ace (regardless of team result)
What I don't think would give Bisu #1 would be this: Bisu wins a game (even against Flash), Flash loses, and then SKT wins in ace vs. Flash but with Bisu not as ace. If SKT has to play an ace game but doesn't send Bisu (on probably the most balanced PL map atm), they say "we don't think Bisu can beat Flash consistently even though he's our best player," and to me that means Bisu can't be #1.
so right now you'd put bisu at number 2 this month even though he has only beaten 3 mediocre opponents so far? how can someone's 'hotness' magically grow when they havent played any games?
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
His source is TLPD, which I dare say you need to visit more frequently...
And I dare say you should read the posts above you..>_>
Don't get sassy after posting post after post of utter bullshit.
Edit: regarding rankings, Bisu is not #2 yet.
As I've said, as I've been saying, the problem with Bisu is that he isn't playing quality opponents, so this has put him in a holding pattern. Any other top 5 guy who does well automatically goes above Bisu and any that does poorly goes below. The chance to change that is the SPL GF, but if all that happens is Bisu plays an easy opponent and then the series ends without ever going to the ace match, then Bisu continues to be stuck in the holding pattern. I'm hoping for Bisu to at least play Stats or possibly Flash. From the standpoint of the coaching staff, SKT does not want that to happen and KT only wants that to happen if they are going for an aggressive strategy. But there's still a good chance of such a match happening. So we'll see.
Right now I go:
1. Flash - don't bother arguing. Flash only loses this position in the circumstances previously discussed. 2. Zero - so dominant these past 3-4 months and against good competition. Just to give a stat for July, 6 wins, 2 losses, including solid wins over Flash and Jangbi (x2). 3. Bisu - stuck in the holding pattern, can move up with wins over STRONG players or down with bad play, but I can't put him above Zero until he does something of note other than squashing weak opponents as if they are D-rank iccup. 4. Hydra - when he's hot, he's hot, when he's not, he's not. A bit of inconsistency, but he only ever loses to very high level play. 5. JD - probably. I might consider bumping him down if I put more thought into this, but his only real weakness is his ZvZ. Apparently while JD is very good at JvZ, he is absolutely awful at ZvZ. Go figure. -----the rest I really need to think about and watch some games to go into in any kind of detail. I am going to say that Killer absolutely needs to be on this rank. The kid has been a hidden gem in 2011, with a whopping 64% win rate, and blasting through an OSL group I did not expect him to survive.
On August 04 2011 12:08 VGhost wrote: For me, if the rank happened now, I would say:
1. Flash 2. Bisu 3. ZerO 4/5/6. Jaedong/Hydra/Soulkey 7. soO 8. Jangbi 9. Light 10. Leta/HoeJJa/roO/Modesty?/other
In light of that, I would put Bisu #1, iff
Bisu beats at least one S-class opponent: Flash, Stats playing well, HoeJJa's/Action's ZvP if they play at the top of their game AND Flash loses all games (=at least once), especially if he loses to a player who is not Bisu/BeSt/fantasy
So we could have: Flash loses, Bisu beats Stats (or other), SKT wins w/o ace OR Bisu beats Flash, SKT wins OR Flash loses, Bisu wins all games, Flash not sent for ace (regardless of team result)
What I don't think would give Bisu #1 would be this: Bisu wins a game (even against Flash), Flash loses, and then SKT wins in ace vs. Flash but with Bisu not as ace. If SKT has to play an ace game but doesn't send Bisu (on probably the most balanced PL map atm), they say "we don't think Bisu can beat Flash consistently even though he's our best player," and to me that means Bisu can't be #1.
so right now you'd put bisu at number 2 this month even though he has only beaten 3 mediocre opponents so far? how can someone's 'hotness' magically grow when they havent played any games?
Basically what TTT said - Hydra and Jaedong have looked a little shaky, and ZerO's really the only other S-class player with recent excellent results.
Speaking of which...
The reason I have Bisu over ZerO is that Bisu still feels like a better player to me. Yes, ZerO has the MSL final a few months ago, and yes ZerO's proved he can take games off of any of TBLS (not that Stork's been playing up to that billing, but we could substitute Hydra, pretty sure). At the same time, he's got the same most-recent knock on him Bisu does: failing in OSL prelims. And since I think Bisu's better overall atm, I want to put Bisu higher. This may be an over-reaction to ZerO's atrocious loss vs Crazy-Hydra as well.
One way or another it's all tentative and hypothetical, of course: Bisu could show up big and solidify at least #2 in the finals, or he could flop vs BarrackS cheesing or something and force me to put ZerO at #2.
So can we all agree Killer needs to be in the top 10 now? I saw personal rankings without him before the STXMC match, but that should erase all doubts.
Here is my before finals ranking, based on the feelings of dominance I got this past month watching these players. Bisu, Soo, and Fantasy could vary here.
1. Flash 2/3 ZerO/Bisu (depending on Bisu's SPL finals performance) 3/4 Bisu/Hydra (ZerO should be above Hydra, but Bisu could be 2,3, or 4) 5. Jaedong 6. Killer 7. n.Die_soO (assuming a good performance in SPL, otherwise lower) 8. Light 9. HoeJJa 6-10 Fantasy. If shows really dominating play in SPL finals he could get 6, if he plays terrible he gets 10, otherwise somewhere in between
On August 05 2011 04:17 Crisium wrote: So can we all agree Killer needs to be in the top 10 now? I saw personal rankings without him before the STXMC match, but that should erase all doubts.
Here is my before finals ranking, based on the feelings of dominance I got this past month watching these players. Bisu, Soo, and Fantasy could vary here.
1. Flash 2/3 ZerO/Bisu (depending on Bisu's SPL finals performance) 3/4 Bisu/Hydra (ZerO should be above Hydra, but Bisu could be 2,3, or 4) 5. Jaedong 6. Killer 7. n.Die_soO (assuming a good performance in SPL, otherwise lower) 8. Light 9. HoeJJa 6-10 Fantasy. If shows really dominating play in SPL finals he could get 6, if he plays terrible he gets 10, otherwise somewhere in between
I don't think the STX masters cup counts towards ELO so I dunno if those results will be taken into account for the PR, but yeah Killer should definitely be in the top 10 after he swept his OSL group clean.
On August 05 2011 07:45 red4ce wrote: I don't think the STX masters cup counts towards ELO so I dunno if those results will be taken into account for the PR, but yeah Killer should definitely be in the top 10 after he swept his OSL group clean.
You are right that STXMC doesn't count for ELO. But the PR is its own identity, and has used them in the past (I remember a discussion last year as well). Anytime that one player beating another affects your opinion of their current form (or power) then it should count for the PR, hell ya, that's the point. So Bisu's Terran losing to Flash's Protoss in an All Star game doesn't and shouldn't matter, but Killer beating ZerO and Light for a two-kill in STXMC should.
Besides, for the September PR we will only have OSL Ro8 (maybe Ro4) and STXMC to go by. So we should certainly count it.
A game played in STX Masters counts the same way as a game played in prelims, as far as I'm concerned. Basically, not very much. At least the competition is high, but players and coaches don't especially put time into preparing for it and it doesn't hold much prestige.
Pretty sure Ro4 of OSL and opening rounds of MSL happen in August, so there will be results.
STX Cup should count for more than a prelim game imo and I think some teams take it more seriously than others. Light was visibly disappointed when he lost the match for Stars for instance.
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
So what your saying is that you checked a few LR threads, decided to draw a conclusion from that despite having no idea of the actual numbers and then keep on defending your WRONGLY opinion like its facts?
As Ffreak pointed out we have this awesome little thing on TL called TLPD (you have been a member since 07 so I would assume you know about it) where you can get all the info you need if you bother to look, something you clearly have not, and then you still have the balls to call me out on sources despite in the next sentence admitting you had absolutely no idea about what you where talking about in the first place.....
Maybe I am a bit rude, it happens in the heat of the moment when im posting, and for that I am sorry if you felt offended, but I will keep on calling out people who speaks out of some fantasy existence without root in the real world. People can have different opinions from me that is fine, but if your gonna post stats\numbers and keep on defending them when people are calling you out on them and they are taking their time to reply to you at least do us a favor and actually check your facts the next time.
I didn't post stats/numbers..I made a generalisation according to the information that I had at the time.
I still don't know how to see who played ACE matches and such but given the games that ffreak posted I will admit that I was wrong regarding the ACE match scenario..
Albeit, which shows us that the number of wins is rather close - the win/loss record is as follows: Bisu: 35 - 5 Flash: 32 - 13
Oh man, this is the best.
Sometimes Bisu's PL record doesn't count because he played more games than Flash and therefore had more opportunities to get wins. Sometimes Bisu's PL record doesn't count because he played less games than Flash and therefore had an easier schedule.
On August 04 2011 14:19 aupstar wrote: You're right, SKT has a lot of depth and has had an extremely strong season where they barely reached the ace match.
This simply means that bisu has been under less pressure to perform than someone like Flash/Jaedong.
The ace match really tests the caliber of the best player of the team in high perssure situations.
Bisu has to deal with little or none of that and so naturally he'd have less losses compared to someone like leta/flash/jaedong.
And for the record, I've watched the games against hyvaa live. It showed Bisu's multitasking isn't up to par with the best.
@ffreakk I don't see how you guys keep bringing up how Flash lost to hyuk in december of LAST year. It occurred far too long ago to be considered as something that influences the current PR. Bisu's loss on the other hand in the "OSL" prelims however is quite recent. But thank you for pointing out that it was my mistake as the poster. I posted that late at night and had them mixed up..
Say what? Why do you post so much bullshit that is just plainly wrong? At least check your stats before you post opinions like they are facts.
Flash has played a total of 36 games of regular PL (not counting playoffs) this season with 4 of them being ace matches, Bisu has played 40 with 6 of them being Ace matches. Leta has played a total of 30 regular PL games with 1 of them being ace matches. Jaedong is the only one with a bigger workload having played 43 games of regular PL and 6 of them being Ace matches.
Your opinion on Bisu`s multitasking leads me to believe you might just be a big troll, but im posting anyway as people might actually believe your statement about others having a harder PL workload when its clearly blatantly wrong.
Is it just me or do SKT fans like to make personal attacks...do you really think that will help change my mind?
Also, I would like to see how you came to that conclusion. Please link me to the source of your information.
I did go through some live report threads but I did not do such a thorough analysis...I saw hardly any ace games with the exceptions being Bisu playing ACE vs airforce and wookie in wemade..lol
His source is TLPD, which I dare say you need to visit more frequently...
And I dare say you should read the posts above you..>_>
Don't get sassy after posting post after post of utter bullshit.
Excuse me?
I don't need you to mother me in response to a conversation I had with someone else that was already solved.
Your comment was completely invalid and not required.
On August 03 2011 18:18 pvzvt wrote: i dont understand how people can rank people 1st or 2nd in the pr only bases on 1-2 games guys this is team effort not individual but since both teams has reached so far you cant really attribute it to 1 player and even if it is attributed to 1 player it was already calculated in previous pr in order for flash not taking #1 he'll need to lose set1 come back dressed up as hoejja and lose set 2 all the way to set (4 different costumes ) and skt will be sending only rookies from the b team
I don't understand how people think they can know all they need to know about a player from 8 games or 10 games or 12 games. You don't.
PR involves looking at a player's history and Bisu's play has been about as close to perfect as humanly possible for months. In all of 2011, the only bad things I can think of were dropping from OSL prelims (again), some sloppy PvP around March +/-, and his struggles with Kal and Stork earlier in the year.
Of course Flash is ahead right now. Even though Flash had some difficulties a month ago, he's been proving himself against better opponents both this month and last month (Bisu has had a fairly easy ride for 2 months). But if Bisu steps it up and beats the hardest opponents (not necessarily Flash twice, but maybe a looking-like-he's-in-form Stats and then Flash, or something like that), then I see no reason to deny him his dues. The fact is that it's these many months of success that allowed Bisu to take over as #1 by ELO.
I believe that performing in multiple leagues > performing to snipe mediocre players on certain maps in proleague.
If you're gonna talk about past histories then you've missed a biggy. He was knocked out of MSL prelims this year by hyvaa. That's his best MU in a Bo3.
Furthermore, the overwhelming majority of his opponents have been sub par with Bisu seldomly being sent in to play the ACE match.
Apparently you don't pay enough attention to Starcraft. I already covered the loss to hyvaa "...dropping from OSL prelims (again)"...which was NOT MSL, but OSL as I correctly stated the first time.
Of course doing well in multiple leagues is the goal. Bisu's inability to up his game for individual leagues is bad. He hasn't been playing poorly in individual leagues (although, please actually WATCH the games vs hyvaa instead of just hiding behind the result which everybody and their grandmother already knows), he just can't step his game up or vary his approach. Everyone knows that Bisu plays a Bisu style match every single game (whereas Flash, for instance, can vary his strategy and mindset a great deal) and because he's not NaDa he can't pull it off (at one point early in his career and before coaches played a relevant role in SC, NaDa would always follow a win with a rush in bo3, which is why so many of his bo3 results were WLW... everyone knew he was rushing; but in NaDa's case he was so far above everyone he could do stupid shit like that and win the series anyway).
But it has to be granted to Bisu that he's absolutely phenomenally good at what he does. And although he favors certain maps so does everyone, including Flash. Maps aren't the issue why he fails to advance in individual leagues.
Bisu is the primary ace player for SKT so I do not understand this remark. If he rarely plays ace it's because SKT matches rarely go to ace. A lot of his recent opponents have been subpar, this is true, but he's played and beaten a lot of strong players this year as well and there's no indication he has gotten worse. If anything, his wins continue looking super clean.
If Bisu carries SKT over KT including toppling Flash then I see no reason to deny him. That is all I have been saying. Important wins when the chips are down will put his past wins in perspective.
Obviously Bisu is not top 2 so far this PR period. Flash is the clear #1 and Zero has earned #2. #3 is probably Bisu because Hydra has been a bit inconsistent and JD has lost JvZ. But any kind of failure in the GF will probably push Hydra over Bisu. JD, having dropped out of OSL and not having been in the playoffs, is in a bad spot.
This quote was directly in response to my comment regarding Bisu seldomly playing ace matches.
Your response shows how this is a misconception that a lot of people may have regarding the issue (not just myself).
Perhaps you should make a few more regular trips to TLPD yourself instead of making crappy one liner responses to comments that were ALREADY responded to and SOLVED long before you pushed your nose into it.
Quit throwing temper tantrums. You were proved wrong, tried to argue it, got shot in the face, and now you're just trying to turn the heat up on me to take out your frustrations. Go let off steam elsewhere.
By the by, if you want to try to make me look bad, at least find an actual example of me fucking up.
On August 05 2011 19:24 Mortality wrote: Quit throwing temper tantrums. You were proved wrong, tried to argue it, got shot in the face, and now you're just trying to turn the heat up on me to take out your frustrations. Go let off steam elsewhere.
By the by, if you want to try to make me look bad, at least find an actual example of me fucking up.
You're right, I was proved wrong regarding the ACE match issue!
If you bothered to read my posts before telling me that I should read TLPD, you would see that I already conceded that I was wrong and moved on regarding the issue.
But being gentlemanly about such things I guess isn't the norm amongst people like you mortality.
Instead you decided to quote me on something that was already resolved and decided that it was a good idea to poke at me for doing something you yourself did not do.
And then continue by telling me that I post bullshit and throw temper tantrums...
Gosh, I scorn the day they ever make you PR writer.
Not to get personal here, but usually people who are/were on the wrong dont act like you do either. Sure, hes a little late in pointing out you are wrong, but its not like he was wrong about it. You, on the other hand, were wrong, and are probably better off just admitting it and accept rather than fighting back.
I too think that you are just throwing tantrum. Admitting that you are wrong doesnt wipe away your mistake. People can choose to ignore it or but they also can remind you that you are wrong. But instead of saying it nicely you chose to push the heat to him. >.<
i dont know but things are clear for me, bisu isnt in OSL , and flash is, so flash #1 is pretty secured, besides this MONTH bisu havent played and showed why he must be among the top 5.
On August 05 2011 19:24 Mortality wrote: Quit throwing temper tantrums. You were proved wrong, tried to argue it, got shot in the face, and now you're just trying to turn the heat up on me to take out your frustrations. Go let off steam elsewhere.
By the by, if you want to try to make me look bad, at least find an actual example of me fucking up.
You're right, I was proved wrong regarding the ACE match issue!
If you bothered to read my posts before telling me that I should read TLPD, you would see that I already conceded that I was wrong and moved on regarding the issue.
But being gentlemanly about such things I guess isn't the norm amongst people like you mortality.
Instead you decided to quote me on something that was already resolved and decided that it was a good idea to poke at me for doing something you yourself did not do.
And then continue by telling me that I post bullshit and throw temper tantrums...
Gosh, I scorn the day they ever make you PR writer.
Honestly? You could have ignored me. There are a million reasons why someone might be late to the punch but you decided to assume it's some kind of malicious conspiracy and throw a childish tantrum in order to vent your frustrations about being called out.
Let's not discuss what it means to be a gentleman when you are even further from being one than I am.
Mortality, you're being kind of a dick. Like seriously you're jumping all over some guy in the PR thread for an innocent mistake. The only tantrum I see here is you constantly jumping down his throat (yes, he was wrong).
Really? Because this is what I see: -I posted late. And not because I was deliberately piling up, but because when I posted that I hadn't realized I was late to the punch. It shouldn't have mattered, he should have just walked away. -He sassed me. -I called him on sassing me. -He threw a tantrum. -I called him on throwing a tantrum.
edit -- You know what, I'm not gonna get sucked up into this. Mortality, I think you're being too abrasive even if you're right -- and you know how much I respect you. That's about it, talk to you later
My thoughts for #1 is that it's more or less guaranteed to be Flash. Only possible way for Bisu to clinch it is if he completely humiliates Flash and Stats in a straight up macro game, which as much as I would like, is not going to happen. That way he can prove that his vT and vP are also nigh-perfect along with his vZ
That said if SKT want to win then they really don't want to be throwing Bisu at either two players except in the ace match. Just like last month, best position I could reasonably place Bisu would be #3 due to lack of games.
I assume we're not gonna wait 2 weeks for the next PR now?
Also, I don't think Mortality's comments were too abrasive. Oystein wasn't being personally offensive either. aupstar should just let it go with a full retraction of his comments when he is proven so conclusively wrong. Turning around and bitching at Oystein and Mortality is just poor.
Probably not. What with MSL being out of commission until October, I think SPL finals being delayed until the next PR will give it more meat. Otherwise it'd really only be OSL. I still have a few days before I'm really able to write anything conclusive though.
On August 07 2011 00:31 TwoToneTerran wrote: Might as well just skip August, then.
Huh, why? August PR will come out in a few days and has plenty of playoff, OSL, and MST games, plus a couple STX Masters. September PR will have OSL, STX Masters, and SPL Grand Finals. October PR will have nothing and will probably be skipped like last year. No reason to skip August.
I still don't get it. Why can't the new PR come out in a day or two and not have the SPL finals? The SPL finals are then apart of the September PR. I think that is what Flamewheel is going to do, and why shouldn't he?
I thought if he wasn't even going to get anything done for less than a few days he might as well just wait. If he wants to just do a shortened month then whatevs.
One of the most important reasons for no PR yet has been discussed 30 billion times in this thread alone -- Flamewheel is in China right now (and is supposed to return home and review important games from the month before making a rank). When he will get to do this, nobody knows. I don't know anything about the alleged typhoon situation over there.
Disappointed at the lack of finals. But maybe at least I might be able to watch live...
I'd rather wait for the finals TBH, I can't take another PR without FantaSy in it, and toying with his oponent at the Grand Finals should put him back in after a 3-0ing his OSL group.
Why am I sure Fanta will destroy his KT oponent? Because I'd favor him over anyone not named Flash; besides, FanTasy often elevates his game when playing Flash who, mind you, is dealing with a wrist injury now.
Time will tell All in all, I agree with delaying the PR.
Flamewheel will do the August PR before the finals. Why is there debate? See below:
On August 07 2011 00:00 flamewheel wrote: Probably not. What with MSL being out of commission until October, I think SPL finals being delayed until the next PR will give it more meat. Otherwise it'd really only be OSL. I still have a few days before I'm really able to write anything conclusive though.
On August 07 2011 13:15 Cr4zyH0r5e wrote: I'd rather wait for the finals TBH, I can't take another PR without FantaSy in it, and toying with his oponent at the Grand Finals should put him back in after a 3-0ing his OSL group.
Why am I sure Fanta will destroy his KT oponent? Because I'd favor him over anyone not named Flash; besides, FanTasy often elevates his game when playing Flash who, mind you, is dealing with a wrist injury now.
Time will tell All in all, I agree with delaying the PR.
So basically you want to delay the power rank because youre a fantasy fan.
On August 07 2011 00:00 flamewheel wrote: Probably not. What with MSL being out of commission until October, I think SPL finals being delayed until the next PR will give it more meat. Otherwise it'd really only be OSL. I still have a few days before I'm really able to write anything conclusive though.
hmm in this quote flamewheel says he'll do the PR after the finals...
no he doesn't swanized. he says the finals are delayed until the next pr (september), not the pr is delayed until after the finals. he says it's good because it'll give him something extra to talk about on the september pr.
So in September we will be expecting a really detailed PR, except for the person who has the #1 PR of course. Because Bisu does not require a detailed explanation for being place 1st.
On August 09 2011 09:31 BisuDagger wrote: So in September we will be expecting a really detailed PR, except for the person who has the #1 PR of course. Because Bisu does not require a detailed explanation for being place 1st.
na man in august we will be getting a PR with lee young ho as #1
On August 09 2011 09:31 BisuDagger wrote: So in September we will be expecting a really detailed PR, except for the person who has the #1 PR of course. Because Bisu does not require a detailed explanation for being place 1st.
na man in august we will be getting a PR with lee young ho as #1
I was fairly sure he wrote "September" though :3 Or is that just an illusion made up by my feeble mind? o.O
With MSL/OSL apparently on hold waiting for SPL final, I'm starting to think we should just pretend August isn't happening and wait till September for a new PR.
EPT
BeSt, 
Bogus, 
Killer, 
we love you!!!!!!!!!!
). Hopefully, Bisu is able to make it farther than Ro32 next MSL <_<
.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1098.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/InUdg.jpg)
All in all, I agree with delaying the PR.
