Power Rank 07/01/2011 - Page 16

On July 07 2011 22:13 Dakkas wrote:


Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory

On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote:
This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one.

BO advantage -> Always win
Same BOs -> Win almost always
BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes

Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck.

Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror.

On July 07 2011 22:57 TwoToneTerran wrote:


95% of the time? 95% of the time the better player doesn't win in broodwar EVER, in any matchup!

ZvZ is absolutely prone to luck, to a painful degree. As much as you want to say "mindgames," Zero got lucky to hit all those 9pools against Jaedong. He played well to win in spite of it, but it's true. ZvZ has always been this way and ever since Jaedong fell off his horse in JvZ, it's almost completely reverted to the previous notion of being a "luckfest." It's more intricate than people thought, but still completely luck based for the first five minutes.

On July 08 2011 02:32 ffreakk wrote:
Fk, i should have read PR this month sooner

I have so many things to complain about (by.Sun not in CBNC even, while a bunch of other players are there, many of whom i feel are less deserving .. for instance..).. Or that thing about Flash losing a Bo5 to JD/Hydra/Bisu/any competent player at the moment, with which i agree due to Flash current condition (not MSL-winning condition, no-training-due-to-treatment condition, which is "current").. I dont know why his fans find it so hard to understand where this point of view is coming from, cos i believe its completely legit, given the current circumstances.

Anyway, i have 10 more pages to read before i can post stuffs and be sure that they are actually relevant to the current discussions

Edit: Now that i have finished reading through all 16 pages of discussion, i feel entitled to post the rest of my opinion.

1/ Lets get the fanboyism out of the way first.
Bisu. Like many other fans im am severely disappointed by his dropping out of the OSL, in fact for the next week or so i didnt go to TL or involve myself in any BW related activity. I understand that it would be difficult to fight against a Golden Mouse, so i wont go there in the first place. Imo, however, the Most-Win King in a PL Season + setting that record as the highest ever could easily make a case against JD n Hydra, both dropping out in MSL Ro4? Im not saying that Most-PL-win-a-season-ever is more important than a SL win, but it is (not very) arguably more difficult.. Many of you talk "achievement" but why talk only of SL Ro4, but not unprecedented PL records? Imo Bisu has a strong case vs JD and Hydra.

2/ Yea my only other beef is by.Sun should get at least CBNC, he did play a good month imo, arguably better than the likes of Roro

On July 08 2011 05:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
If you can't see how VERY recent MSL Ro4 results don't count then I don't know what to tell you -- they're in the back of your mind when you also look at their qualifying for OSL and doing well in PL.

Yes, Flash isn't practicing right now: BECAUSE he doesn't have an important league to play in. If Flash were in the Bo5 stages of a tournament then he would practice, and he would be the favorite over probably anyone else besides Jaedong, and even that's sketchy considering how thoroughly he thrashed Zero and Hydra. Bisu most certainly isn't favored. If you just magically grabbed them from the teamhouse and sat them down and told them to play with no preparation time then maybe, but that's a dumb way to view it.

On July 08 2011 02:32 ffreakk wrote:
Fk, i should have read PR this month sooner

I have so many things to complain about (by.Sun not in CBNC even, while a bunch of other players are there, many of whom i feel are less deserving .. for instance..).. Or that thing about Flash losing a Bo5 to JD/Hydra/Bisu/any competent player at the moment, with which i agree due to Flash current condition (not MSL-winning condition, no-training-due-to-treatment condition, which is "current").. I dont know why his fans find it so hard to understand where this point of view is coming from, cos i believe its completely legit, given the current circumstances.

Anyway, i have 10 more pages to read before i can post stuffs and be sure that they are actually relevant to the current discussions

=========== New post but dont want to double post ===========

Edit: Now that i have finished reading through all 16 pages of discussion, i feel entitled to post the rest of my opinion.

1/ Lets get the fanboyism out of the way first.
Bisu. Like many other fans im am severely disappointed by his dropping out of the OSL, in fact for the next week or so i didnt go to TL or involve myself in any BW related activity. I understand that it would be difficult to fight against a Golden Mouse, so i wont go there in the first place. Imo, however, the Most-Win King in a PL Season + setting that record as the highest ever could easily make a case against JD n Hydra, both dropping out in MSL Ro4? Im not saying that Most-PL-win-a-season-ever is more important than a SL win, but it is (not very) arguably more difficult.. Many of you talk "achievement" but why talk only of SL Ro4, but not unprecedented PL records? Imo Bisu has a strong case vs JD and Hydra.

2/ Yea my only other beef is by.Sun should get at least CBNC, he did play a good month imo, arguably better than the likes of Roro

On July 08 2011 06:41 Lachrymose wrote:


You don't know what to tell him because there isn't anything to tell him. In your mind SL performance over previous months counts and PL performance does not. It is that simple. Also the Ro4 Results in question are LOSSES. You're talking about Ro8 results.

As for Flash being favoured over everyone except Jaedong you can make the same argument that Bisu is favoured over everyone except Flash. Can you make the same argument for Jaedong and Hydra?

On July 08 2011 06:56 TwoToneTerran wrote:


Jaedong is the best player in the world right now.

I do account for proleague. I also account for failing in prelims. This can never, and will never be said enough. It is absolutely unfathomable that Bisu should lose to Hyvaa unless he played like Jaedong in his ZvP prime -- and he didn't. He played pretty well, and Bisu played uninspired, and that lack of inspiration and focus is why I don't think he'll win another starleague unless every map is katrina. And that's a fucking shame, because I also think he might be the most mechanically clean player to ever play.

On July 08 2011 09:32 ffreakk wrote:


I disagree with the bolded line.

Sure Jaedong had that 8-game-win-streak, but lets not for get that he fell into the longest losing streak in his entire career earlier this month. He defeated Flash twice, but Flash during that period was looking vulnerable (for obvious reason) and was losing to every other scrubs, so i dont feel that his two wins over Flash this month has as much weightage as it sounds (iirc, Flash said himself that he didnt prepare much for that ODT group stage).

Whether Bisu's play vs Hyvaa was uninspired, i guess its a matter of opinion, since i clearly didnt feel that way. Also, in my opinion, Hyvaa played better than both Bogus n Hyun did in their ODT. Bisu lost 1-2 to Hyvaa, Jaedong 2-0 his group. You dont have to agree with me, but i dont give enough credit to Jaedong's 2-0 to overcome the 5-loss-streak he had at the beginning of the month.

I would like to point out again that Zero and Hydra had an almost identical month, as far as PL goes.

Zero lost in the Finals, Hydra dropped out at Ro4.
Zero dropped out in the ODT, Hydra didnt play.

Imo Zero should be placed above, since the result of early stages of SLs shouldnt matter as much as making it to the Finals of the other Starleague anw.

On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote:
Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.

If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.

If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract.

On July 08 2011 10:40 beachbeachy wrote:


Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps.