EPTPower Rank 07/01/2011 - Page 15
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On July 06 2011 17:02 Goragoth wrote: I don't want to be supporting the troll here and I think the PR is more or less fine (well, personally I would never put a Terran on the PR but then again I really hate Terrans... - I kid of course, well kind of), but I do want to point out the March PR where Flash got #1 over Hydra who was coming fresh from his own MSL win while Flash had nothing but PL to play. I'm just saying that Flash is getting huge leniency here because of his past achievements while most other players in that situation would not have had #1 (neither Hydra nor Fantasy got the spot when they won their leagues). I won't argue whether that is right or wrong, in the end it's all up to the PR writer anyhow, but I did want to point it out since some people here seem to just saying, "he won the MSL stupid, so he should be #1. Duh!", which isn't much of an argument. People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Also, ever heard of the concept ''benefit of doubt''? Now, I may be biased, but I think someone who has been in 7 out of the last 9 Starleague finals deserves more of this than anyone else in the scene... | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On July 06 2011 19:48 TwoToneTerran wrote: People disparage his title because it was all ZvZ, similar to Calm. I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked? A MSL win is a MSL win and Hydra was and is simply better at ZvZ than Great. Hydra might even be the best ZvZ player at the moment, just like Flash is the best TvZ player. I agree with Flash's placement as #1, btw. PR has traditionally favoured historic accomplishments and this was a monumental achievement. But Flash accomplished nothing this month other than winning the MSL. He lost all his games in PL* and got through the OSL really easily because Bogus made some huge mistakes and Hyun fluked himself into the OSL. There are certainly arguments for not putting Flash at #1. However, Flamewheel made it very clear that he was awarding Flash the #1 based on his past achievements in order to honour his accomplishment. So I don't know why people are still complaining. But don't brush aside an MSL gold based on some arbitrary distinction like the match-up. JD got his golden mouse by winning a ZvZ and I'd really rather not have somebody say it wasn't worth as much as Flash's golden mouse because of it. The better player wins and it's always deserved. * Edit: Flash actually beat FBH in PL, my bad. However, his wins against Hydra were accounted for in last month's PR, if we want to get pedantic. Anyway. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I don't think they didn't deserve their titles. It's not their fault they got matched up with nothing but ZvZ, they just did what they could to win and clearly earned their way there. Still, an undoubtedly lackluster series of games and absolutely forgettable title runs, sad as it is to say. | ||
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SimonB
United States1088 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:02 kuroshiroi wrote: I guess we can just disparage Flash's title because Hydra sucks at ZvT and Zero choked? Neither of those things are really true? | ||
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Yodo
Russian Federation327 Posts
In June we have 3 type of players activity: PL, MSL and OSL. Lets rate the player performance from 0 (complete failure) to 10 (complete success). Bisu: PL (7-1) = 9, MSL= OSL = 0 (not perfoming at all). Total = 9 Flash: PL (1-5) = 1, MSL = 10 (6-0), OSL = 7. Total = 18. Jaedong: PL (7-3) = 8, MSL = 0, OSL = 10. Total = 18. Due to gold medal Flash takes priority over JD. Bisu not even close to both of them. I hope all Bisu fanboys can calc? To prevent whining about importance of PL and unimportance of mere Star Leagues: PR is individual ranking and you can't place in-team performance over individual results, it just wrong.. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
Not to mention they're totally different ideas. ZvZvZvZ semis mean the situation(generally maps) being extremely favorable for zerg. So it cheapens the win as it implies part of your championship belongs to you playing the right race. Not saying if this was actually true or not. But it certainly is the perception. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On July 06 2011 23:41 Xiphos wrote: ZerO didn't choke on that Final vs Flash. Flash won with new BO advantage and ZerO was too stubborn to mix up his plays. Add in some cheese into your play in a BOx! Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking. | ||
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
On July 06 2011 21:24 TwoToneTerran wrote: Jaedong beat Fantasy in that OSL, a guy who just crushed him in PL finals a week prior. Hydra and Calm literally played 3 ZvZs in a row to win their MSLs. They did beat Jaedong but they were by far the most deflating and uninteresting title runs in history. They've since proven that both of them are solid players. We all know ZvZ has the largest luck element of any matchup, so it comes off to people as more obvious than other champions' luck who didn't ZvZ there way there. I don't think they didn't deserve their titles. It's not their fault they got matched up with nothing but ZvZ, they just did what they could to win and clearly earned their way there. Still, an undoubtedly lackluster series of games and absolutely forgettable title runs, sad as it is to say. Actually PvP is more luck based than ZvZ. Anyway, it still would count for more to win a coinflip matchup than one biased to the race the winner was playing (i.e. TvZ where T has a slight edge). And how entertaining the games were has absolutely no bearing on ranking the skill of the players; so your last sentence really baffles me. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I think they deserved the title, I do not think they were the best players in the tournament in spite of it. I don't think you can say the same thing for Flash unless you're absolutely convinced Jaedong would've had his number in the finals had he made it there. | ||
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mlaack10
United States2 Posts
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VGhost
United States3613 Posts
On July 07 2011 01:18 kuroshiroi wrote: Which was my point all along. ZvZ isn't some shitty auto-win match-up, just like Flash winning against Hydra and Zero wasn't guaranteed or easy. But I can infer from your comment that you think ZvZ is not as deserving as the other match-ups. Good to know. Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking. I'd disagree. Does every loser "choke"? Can you really "choke" at all if you're as badly outclassed as ZerO was? Just for reference, here's the liquibet vote: That's favoring Flash at 88%, despite an incredibly ZerO-favored writeup from the news type. True, ZerO won a PL game against Flash just before the MSL Final. True, I thought ZerO had it in him to go 1-3 - and if he got really lucky and made it to 2-2 I might have given him a good shot to win. But when it comes down to it, Flash is the Ultimate Weapon and the definition of achievement over the last year, while ZerO's a solid A-class Zerg who's incredibly streaky and hasn't merited a nickname better than "Prince of Queens" (which, while cool, doesn't bespeak greatness). And in that scenario, he lost game 1 and 2 badly without doing anything seriously wrong - after that, even succumbing to nerves in game 3 doesn't deserve the epithet of "choke". (You want a choke, let's talk about another recent 0-3 final where the loser was favored... fffuuuu Dinotoss!) | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On July 07 2011 09:19 VGhost wrote: + Show Spoiler + On July 07 2011 01:18 kuroshiroi wrote: Which was my point all along. ZvZ isn't some shitty auto-win match-up, just like Flash winning against Hydra and Zero wasn't guaranteed or easy. But I can infer from your comment that you think ZvZ is not as deserving as the other match-ups. Good to know. Refusing to deviate from your obviously flawed game-plan is choking. I'd disagree. Does every loser "choke"? Can you really "choke" at all if you're as badly outclassed as ZerO was? Just for reference, here's the liquibet vote: That's favoring Flash at 88%, despite an incredibly ZerO-favored writeup from the news type. True, ZerO won a PL game against Flash just before the MSL Final. True, I thought ZerO had it in him to go 1-3 - and if he got really lucky and made it to 2-2 I might have given him a good shot to win. But when it comes down to it, Flash is the Ultimate Weapon and the definition of achievement over the last year, while ZerO's a solid A-class Zerg who's incredibly streaky and hasn't merited a nickname better than "Prince of Queens" (which, while cool, doesn't bespeak greatness). And in that scenario, he lost game 1 and 2 badly without doing anything seriously wrong - after that, even succumbing to nerves in game 3 doesn't deserve the epithet of "choke". (You want a choke, let's talk about another recent 0-3 final where the loser was favored... fffuuuu Dinotoss!) Yeah, I intentionally didn't mention a certain progamer of the dinosauria variety. That was way worse. Zero won that game against Flash on Benzene by not making mutas but by making lurkers when Flash thought he was going to make mutas, i.e. Flash's BO counter failed. In the finals however, Flash's valkonic build was a hard counter to 3 hatch muta and it basically mind-fucked Zero and lead him to play really shitty in games 2 and 3. Game 1 was a slaughter. I'm not saying that Flash didn't play well, since he played some excellent StarCraft, but he didn't really have to work very hard in games 2 and 3. He still would've won easily in the end because Zero just isn't as good as but the win was easier than it could have been. It doesn't diminish Flash's win in any way, it was just disappointing. Similarly, ZvZ finals may be disappointing but they're still just as important and impressive as all the other possible finals and dismissing them based on luck or whatever is irritating to say the least. There is some luck involved, just like there was luck involved with Flash's valkonic build but it's perfectly possible to win a ZvZ final or semi or anything based on pure skill. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
It is not perfectly possible to win a ZvZ final on pure skill. If you don't get a bad BO on a bad map then you are lucky enough to demonstrate your skill. This is just how mirrors work, and it's a massive problem with ZvZ and PvP. TvT less so but haha like we're ever going to have a TvT finals. | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck. Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror. | ||
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Dakkas
2550 Posts
On July 07 2011 21:58 kuroshiroi wrote: This is how I view mirrors when a better player plays a worse one. BO advantage -> Always win Same BOs -> Win almost always BO disadvantage -> Win sometimes Tally it up and a very good mirror player should win 65-75% of the time. In a BO5 series, that's virtually a guarantee you'll win. And you know what, JD and Hydra have reached 75%+ winrates in ZvZ for long periods of time. That can't possibly all be luck. Obviously it's possible one player will do four 12hatches in a row against three 9pools and a 12 hatch but it's also possible for a TvT player to do 4 14CCs against proxy 8rax or BBS or a PvP player to do four 4gates in a row against DTs. 95% of the time though, the better player will win a mirror. Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5595 Posts
On July 07 2011 22:13 Dakkas wrote: Not detracting from the rest of your post however the bolded parts are contradictory  No they aren't. + Show Spoiler + Only incorrect when Jaedong is playing Hogil in the OSL. | ||
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