|
On July 08 2011 11:04 VGhost wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 10:40 beachbeachy wrote:On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote:
Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract. Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps. Bisu's WL performance this year argues against that last point. I'm not saying that Flash and Jaedong are necessarily worse in the abstract. Healthy Flash is far and away my choice to win "a game" any time any where etc. But at the moment Flash isn't healthy and is losing one-offs. As far as Jaedong goes, for the past two or three years he has consistently come off worst in winning percentage in Proleague among Taek-LeeSsang. This is of course partly attributable to the fact that OZ's good players are Jaedong, Jaedong, and occasionally Killer or HiyA, as well as Jaedong (KT's not much better but Stats is solid and last year they had Violet as well, the year before that Luxury, as a threat, which helped Flash. T1 of course can send fantasy or BeSt (while he plays the same race as Bisu, his style's very different) out as necessary, and for the past two seasons they've managed to keep at least once Zerg playing reasonably well most of the time), but that doesn't entirely cover it. I don't think. In fact, Bisu's problems in series play are all indicative that he doesn't prep as well for a known map/opponent as other S- and A-class players, and that his strength is almost all mechanics and game sense.
A lot of valid points, but bisu's gamesense and adaptability is DEFINITELY subpar to Flash and Jaedong. Most of bisu's wins are against bad opponents. His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses.
|
There has literally only been one game in the entire season that I can remember where I thought ''Damn, nice preparation Bisu'' and that was when he stomped Flash in the WL final when he used a special build designed specifically against his opponent. Other than that almost all his games are him relying on his ability to outplay his opponent. He's kind of like Flash before Flash's God-era began. It works like a charm vs all the bad opponents, it works like a charm in PL, but in the Starleagues it just doesn't cut it. Why didn't he bring out something new and fancy vs Flash in MSL as well?
|
I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
|
No, it isn't invented just to keep Bisu down, if that's what you're saying. Remember the month Flash was moved off the PR completely? Ya, that was after the month the PL season ended, a PL season in which Flash won the ''Most wins''-award. Funny, eh?
The PL record simply doesn't matter that much in the end when determining the PR. The difference between Flash+JD and Bisu isn't shown in their PL records, it's shown in the individual leagues.
|
5930 Posts
On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote:
I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial?
As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League.
Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week.
|
On July 08 2011 12:42 Womwomwom wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote:
I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial? As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League. Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week.
So we dont consider Winner's League now? Why dont we just dont count the games Bisu won altogether, and only his losses, his record would then look terrible.
His win-rate as well as win-count this season is simply better than Flash's the last time he set the most-win record in PL. Someone else (with a Goliath icon) gave the stats the last time :p. Im not even trying to overplay the importance of this. Im just saying that i find that achievement > Ro4 MSL. If you disagree, do tell.
|
On July 08 2011 12:49 ffreakk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 12:42 Womwomwom wrote:On July 08 2011 11:32 ffreakk wrote:
I dont know, from TLPD i dont feel that the opposition that Bisu beat this season is any worse than that of say.. JD or Flash :3.. Someone enlighten me as to how Bisu's only good vs scrubs? Or is this the new thing to justify considering his new Most-Wins-A-Season record useless and trivial? As cool as his most wins a season record, its buffered by the fact that they played two whole rounds of Winner's League. Even if you take into account PL records, Flash (and I guess Jaedong) isn't really that far behind Bisu and he might have caught up had Stats not entered the own zone. They have fairly comparative PL records yet Flash actually wins individual leagues and Bisu doesn't do anything but lose to scrubs every day of the week. So we dont consider Winner's League now? Why dont we just dont count the games Bisu won altogether, and only his losses, his record would then look terrible. His win-rate as well as win-count this season is simply better than Flash's the last time he set the most-win record in PL. Someone else (with a Goliath icon) gave the stats the last time :p. Im not even trying to overplay the importance of this. Im just saying that i find that achievement > Ro4 MSL. If you disagree, do tell.
Just about everyone disagrees except perhaps vampyr.
|
On July 08 2011 11:23 beachbeachy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 11:04 VGhost wrote:On July 08 2011 10:40 beachbeachy wrote:On July 08 2011 10:29 VGhost wrote:
Who the best player is atm depends entirely on the criterion.
If he has to win one game, against an unknown opponent, on a random map, Bisu's the best hands down.
If he has to win a series, with prep time, I want to say Jaedong might be the best, but until Flash actually loses a series/bows out of a league I can't deny him that because he hasn't lost a series in forever, injury or no. And I can't elevate Jaedong too far when I think he'd lose a Bo5 to Bisu (loss to hyvaa or no) - but Bisu has zero reputation left any more in series play in the abstract. Bisu is the exact opposite. Well, not opposite, but Flash AND Jaedong are so much better in that category. What wins bisu's games are his awesome, raw mechanics, and rigorous coaching and preparation for specific maps. Bisu's WL performance this year argues against that last point. I'm not saying that Flash and Jaedong are necessarily worse in the abstract. Healthy Flash is far and away my choice to win "a game" any time any where etc. But at the moment Flash isn't healthy and is losing one-offs. As far as Jaedong goes, for the past two or three years he has consistently come off worst in winning percentage in Proleague among Taek-LeeSsang. This is of course partly attributable to the fact that OZ's good players are Jaedong, Jaedong, and occasionally Killer or HiyA, as well as Jaedong (KT's not much better but Stats is solid and last year they had Violet as well, the year before that Luxury, as a threat, which helped Flash. T1 of course can send fantasy or BeSt (while he plays the same race as Bisu, his style's very different) out as necessary, and for the past two seasons they've managed to keep at least once Zerg playing reasonably well most of the time), but that doesn't entirely cover it. I don't think. In fact, Bisu's problems in series play are all indicative that he doesn't prep as well for a known map/opponent as other S- and A-class players, and that his strength is almost all mechanics and game sense. A lot of valid points, but bisu's gamesense and adaptability is DEFINITELY subpar to Flash and Jaedong. Most of bisu's wins are against bad opponents. His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses.
This is Bisu's PL season, losses first.
Here's Jaedong's PL season, again with losses at the top.
Finally, Flash's season, again with losses first.
Basically any difference you want to make between these three in terms of Proleague performance is trivial. Mainly they only lose to other good players. Each has a very few "bad" losses in terms of opponents' caliber, but when you look at it - Bisu vs RorO, Flash vs Shuttle, Jaedong vs s2 all come to mind - the worse player showed phenomenally good play in the actual game on that day.
Now examine in terms of opponents.
Bisu: 2-0 vs BaBy, 2-0 vs Bogus, 3-0 vs Calm, 1-1 vs Flash, 1-1 vs free, 3-0 vs great, 4-1 vs Jaedong, 2-0 vs Soulkey, 2-0 vs Sea, etc.
Obviously we can do the same for Jaedong or Flash. I'm not going to say it's a completely settled question, but at the moment, given Bisu's better winning percentage over more games vs similar opponents in proleague play, not to mention Jaedong's and Flash's recent struggles (though JD seems past his and Flash's has to be at least partly medical), I think my claim that Bisu's the best player in a one-off game is, to say the least, very plausible.
Your claim that, "His superior mechanics allow him to crush them, but when things don't go his way, he loses," is true for every top-tier player - every player, even - with the exception of a very few (sAviOr, fantasy, maybe Calm) who rely less on pure mechanics and more on strategy to win. And even those players will still lose if "things don't go his way". The only exception I can think of from my own watching is Flash's TvT about a year ago, and occasionally the pinnacle of JvZ, and even there there's always some hidden something that Flash or Jaedong made "go his way" in order to get the win.
(All that said, I am in no way claiming Bisu is currently anywhere near Flash or JD in series play. He's not even in shouting distance of fantasy or Stork or Hydra atm.)
|
5930 Posts
I am saying that its easy to get the "Most Wins Record" and completely crush past results considering there are two rounds of Winner's League played instead of just one. I think its an awful thing to base an argument on since whoever gets the "Most Wins Record" will absolutely demolish Winner's League and that completely depends on who gets sent out, who doesn't, and whether or not your team performs well. Stats absolutely demolished Winner's League, in fact he was the 4th best performing player in the league, and probably took a lot of games from Flash.
Then you can go start a slippery slope argument and say "Oh but sometimes they might not play in standard proleague are you going to take into account games where XXX didn't play?" but the fact is that you can only play twice at most in standard proleague (and with KT/OZ, they probably don't even get to the 7th game half of the time) and not up to 4 times in Winner's League.
His win rate isn't significantly better than Flash's record, especially in Winner's League. Jaedong is far worse but its still a strong record and he actually gets deep into individual leagues constantly. Bisu is solely proleague, and probably the luckiest player because other teams have to worry about everyone else on SKT and not just him, but he can't even get past the preliminaries and has years of history suggesting that he's awful at individual leagues.
So yes, having a good proleague record and extremely good individual league record (in the case of Jaedong) is more important than having the most wins in proleague and being utter rubbish at individual leagues. Bisu is no Bo Jackson, unlike the other two guys, so to speak. He's not even as good as 08-09 Flash because at least Flash destroyed proleague and performed like an in-form Sea in individual leagues.
|
Yellow getting the pity 2nd rank? How can I take these ranking seriously if you do that? I've always though that this list was based more off of feeling then merit and this only makes me feel stronger about that.
|
On July 08 2011 14:30 Traumatizer wrote:
Yellow getting the pity 2nd rank? How can I take these ranking seriously if you do that? I've always though that this list was based more off of feeling then merit and this only makes me feel stronger about that.
It's just a tribute...there's a huge difference between earnestly trying to rank the players and honoring a legend. Don't take anything away from the staff because of something like this-- do it when there is an actual discrepancy.
|
It's not a pity rank; it's a nod towards one of the most beloved and famous progamers of all time who's leaving the scene. Why would you care?
|
|
|
On July 08 2011 15:10 InFdude wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2011 15:04 GolemMadness wrote:
It's not a pity rank; it's a nod towards one of the most beloved and famous progamers of all time who's leaving the scene. Why would you care? Yeah but N2 as a tribute really is a bit confusing.I would have been happier with n1 or nothing.
Having Yellow ranked number 2 is a tribute to the original and ultimate Kong. Having Yellow as number 1 would make no sense 
|
|
|
On July 08 2011 13:10 Womwomwom wrote:
I am saying that its easy to get the "Most Wins Record" and completely crush past results considering there are two rounds of Winner's League played instead of just one. I think its an awful thing to base an argument on since whoever gets the "Most Wins Record" will absolutely demolish Winner's League and that completely depends on who gets sent out, who doesn't, and whether or not your team performs well. Stats absolutely demolished Winner's League, in fact he was the 4th best performing player in the league, and probably took a lot of games from Flash.
This argument is and always has been complete bullshit.
When Bisu surpassed Flash's most-wins record (57) Bisu had played LESS games than Flash had. In the same amount of games as Flash had played when he set the record Bisu recorded 59 wins.
Yes Bisu has played more games NOW. But this was not the case when he surpassed Flash. His winrate was higher then and remained higher all the way until the end.
It is not double WL. It is not games played.
|
The argument that Bisu having more games to play makes his PL record less legitimate is complete and utter bullshit. Don't forget that each round has less games now. There's actually 1 less series in this new format. And if it's so easy to get as high as he did, why did no one else come close?
The rest of your argument is not worth addressing.
That being said, I hope Bisu doesn't disappoint as bad as he did by losing to someone as mediocre as Stats and letting the team get AK'd. Hopefully such a pathetic result won't happen again. Also, it would be nice if he didn't choke in the SL's. As long as OGN doesn't make us wait 6 months again, he should have a chance to prove himself again soon.
|
Bisu should be first!!
if someon disagree FU!! 
|
On July 08 2011 20:26 iTi wrote:Bisu should be first!! if someon disagree FU!!
Nice 1st post, I predict your lifespan being pretty small here on TL.
|
Jangbi is 24-3? Holy shitballs.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
