On July 12 2011 04:56 Xiphos wrote: I personally believe that Stork will be back to PR rank next month after improving immensely in his gameplay. I still don't get how Stork manages to pick up his play in such short time.
@VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
I'm well aware of his record. I've been watching him for his whole career and this is the best his TvP has been since 2007. He's improved a lot, but if you actually consider his TvP "strong" right now then you haven't been watching his games. His TvP has elevated to the status of "okay." But let's just say... beating Light's TvP is not a strong piece of evidence for having S-class PvT.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I'm sure everyone that comes out on top after prelims have excellent records.
It's a bit unfair then just to consider Jangbi with having +15 wins.
Also, what about those that are seeded into other rounds that don't have to go through this prelim phase? It's not exactly a level comparison then is it?
Furthermore, as stated earlier, the people in the prelims aren't all what you'd call cream of the crop. They even contain those people from the mystarleague show (none of whome could win a single game during the prelims).
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. Or maybe I wrote it poorly. And I don't have a lot of time right now for my usual wall of text responses so if you were expecting something lengthy then I don't know what to say.
No game you play is ever totally meaningless, as much as you may want to delude yourself that fooling around with your friends is, it isn't. Even ICCup games are not totally meaningless for a progamer. ICCup games don't interest us because they don't tell us enough.
Prelim games are obviously light years beyond any ICCup match. Do you think I do not realize that? But like ICCup games they don't tell us enough. You might have an odd match, like Jangbi's wildcard win over Zero, that actually carries some significance, but the reality is that prelim events are not played at the highest level.
We might be able to dissect individual games played during prelims. We might be able to talk about particular matches (e.g., Jangbi vs Soo, Jangbi vs Zero, Jangbi vs Leta). What we cannot do is just toss out numbers like that for hype when they don't necessarily mean anything. As TwoToneTerran pointed out -- and is true -- a lot of hot streaks seem to start at the prelims. Except most of them go nowhere.
60% wins in "standard leagues" means infinitely more than 80% wins in prelims. It just does. You can never make a Starleague and have 80% prelim results. We don't count prelims towards ELO, we don't hype players up based on prelim stats. You cannot compare Jangbi's 26-4 run or whatever the fuck it is to Flash/Jaedong/Bisu etc. posting the same kind of numbers in standard leagues.
We had a few meaningful results last month, but the real trials for Jangbi are all happening this month. His performance against Jaedong was a good accomplishment and that 0-1 on paper result is as much OR MORE of an accomplishment than that 26-4.
I like talking about progamer statistics, but FFS all this talk around Jangbi is totally removing any and all meaning of the stats. You're supposed to interpret what the statistics mean, not just grab a bunch of numbers and chuck them at people and hope that those people are uninformed enough to think the numbers mean something that they don't.
BTW the real punishment for Bisu was that he didn't prove anything last month. The best player he beat was a slumping Hiya who is not doing well right now at all. He outplayed most of his opponents, but we expected a top 5 PR player to outplay them. All of them. He got outplayed twice, and that happens even to the best. He couldn't be #1 but he was clearly top 4. Why he got 4 (I'm not counting Yellow btw since that rank is a tribute to a great man) instead of 2 or 3 is because Bisu shows execution abilities that are as good or better than anybody else on the planet, but most fans these days seem to forget that execution isn't everything. The fact is that Bisu was ranked ahead of an MSL finalist, last season's semifinalist, a player who has been winning about 2/3 his matches against TBLS so far this year (that player is Zero). Acting like Bisu has been wronged does injustice to Zero who is even lower, and it does injustice to Flash, JD, and Hydra who have also done great things.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
What kind of response is this? He writes a lengthy post about why we shouldn't ignore prelims completely and you compare prelims to ICCup? ICCup games are training games, and prelims games actually do count for something, you are able to qualify for a SL through them. 16-0 in prelims would always be impressive and should be in the back of your mind when thinking about that player, even if it doesn't prove anything (which of course it doesn't, noone remembers 2nd round players in a tennis grand slam, but at least they made the tournament).
I am no fan of giving prelims results much weight at all, and quoting a 26-4 monthly record with 15 prelims game is, as you said, just skewing records. But what I am against (and I would assume VGhost as well) is making them a one-way street: Punishing a good play (think Bisu) into oblivion when he doesn't make it out of them, but don't give any credit to players who actually do make it out.
I think you are misinterpreting what I meant. Or maybe I wrote it poorly. And I don't have a lot of time right now for my usual wall of text responses so if you were expecting something lengthy then I don't know what to say.
No game you play is ever totally meaningless, as much as you may want to delude yourself that fooling around with your friends is, it isn't. Even ICCup games are not totally meaningless for a progamer. ICCup games don't interest us because they don't tell us enough.
Prelim games are obviously light years beyond any ICCup match. Do you think I do not realize that? But like ICCup games they don't tell us enough. You might have an odd match, like Jangbi's wildcard win over Zero, that actually carries some significance, but the reality is that prelim events are not played at the highest level.
Yes, I think you worded that poorly, although I might have fallen into a trap here:
@VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we?
I guess what you were trying to say is that iccup games are not meaningless for progamers? And I understood that you do think they are meaningless (which is my take, btw, besides the obvious value as a training-game). I am sorry, but as a non-native speaker, it is sometimes hard to get the meaning of a double negation (=> 'We don't need no education', 'I don't need no help'... 'I could care less' and 'I could not care less' basically meaning the same thing, etc.)
Anyway, I think it is just wrong to bring up ICCup games (even as an example) into a discussion about preliminariy games... too many A and A+ players have fallen during those prelims in the past to say they are totally meaningless.
Everything else you say I agree with, they skew stats and you cannot just go ahead and write "26-4". But advancing is still an accomplishment in itself in my book, you may think otherwise.
It is an accomplishment, but I think it was baubo who said these words first and I support them fully: with prelims it's more like check if they passed, x if they didn't, rather than considering the stats coming out of them. As I said, you can look at individual games, but just throwing out the stats? No. It's misleading. Prelims are prelims, not the highest level, not the main show.
On July 12 2011 14:32 Mortality wrote: @VGhost ICCup record doesn't mean nothing, even for progamers, but we're not going to talk about that, are we? The reality is that counting prelims skews records. Going 16-0 against players who have never qualified for SL before doesn't prove you're better than someone who is 0-5 against Flash/JD/Bisu. The skill gap is too immense.
I'm well aware of his record. I've been watching him for his whole career and this is the best his TvP has been since 2007. He's improved a lot, but if you actually consider his TvP "strong" right now then you haven't been watching his games. His TvP has elevated to the status of "okay." But let's just say... beating Light's TvP is not a strong piece of evidence for having S-class PvT.
Light's TvP may never look pretty, but his record recently speaks for itself. He's finally gotten over the TvP hump that has plagued him forever, with wins over Stork, Stats, and Shuttle (Who has a 2-1 record vs FlaSh recently no?).
Didn't I already say I'm aware? I'm happy that he's finally developed a TvP that can win, but would you honestly consider Light's TvP to be high A-class or S-class? Do you think it compares to in form Flash, Fanta or Hiya?
Here's a fact to consider: after all Light has done, his TvP ELO is still only 2038. Now, honestly I think that low balls him (he's playing like he deserves about 2080-2100, same range as Mind, Baby, FBH), but if all that he's done has only been enough to put him up to a meager 2038 are you really going to put him up with those guys?
Rofl... was soo on the rank? I didn't even notice that when I read the pr the first time. I generally don't like it when people correct the rank with new results, but Bogus should have had Soo's rank. Soo is terrible. soo, soo bad.
EPT
