• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 23:14
CEST 05:14
KST 12:14
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors4Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun13[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt1: Inheritors16[ASL21] Ro16 Preview Pt2: All Star10Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists22
Community News
RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event10Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results12026 GSL Season 1 Qualifiers25Maestros of the Game 2 announced92026 GSL Tour plans announced15
StarCraft 2
General
Code S Season 1 (2026) - RO12 Results Code S Season 1 - RO12 Group A: Rogue, Percival, Solar, Zoun Team Liquid Map Contest #22 - The Finalists Blizzard Classic Cup @ BlizzCon 2026 - $100k prize pool MaNa leaves Team Liquid
Tourneys
StarCraft Evolution League (SC Evo Biweekly) $1,400 SEL Season 3 Ladder Invitational RSL Revival: Season 5 - Qualifiers and Main Event GSL Code S Season 1 (2026) SC2 INu's Battles#15 <BO.9 2Matches>
Strategy
Custom Maps
[D]RTS in all its shapes and glory <3 [A] Nemrods 1/4 players [M] (2) Frigid Storage
External Content
Mutation # 524 Death and Taxes The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 523 Firewall Mutation # 522 Flip My Base
Brood War
General
[ASL21] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Progenitors Why there arent any 256x256 pro maps? BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL21 General Discussion
Tourneys
[ASL21] Ro8 Day 3 [ASL21] Ro8 Day 2 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues Escore Tournament StarCraft Season 2
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Fighting Spirit mining rates What's the deal with APM & what's its true value Any training maps people recommend?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Dawn of War IV Nintendo Switch Thread Daigo vs Menard Best of 10 Diablo IV
Dota 2
The Story of Wings Gaming
League of Legends
G2 just beat GenG in First stand
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas TL Mafia Community Thread Five o'clock TL Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread 3D technology/software discussion Canadian Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
The IdrA Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread [Req][Books] Good Fantasy/SciFi books Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion McBoner: A hockey love story
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
streaming software Strange computer issues (software) [G] How to Block Livestream Ads
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Movie Stars In Video Games: …
TrAiDoS
ramps on octagon
StaticNine
Broowar part 2
qwaykee
Funny Nicknames
LUCKY_NOOB
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1764 users

Power Rank 07/01/2011 - Page 21

Forum Index > Polls & Liquibet
Post a Reply
Prev 1 19 20 21 22 23 39 Next All
Crisium
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States1618 Posts
July 15 2011 07:55 GMT
#401
You mean MSL (MST).

Well, I'm guessing Flamewheel will wait until after PL finals (August 6th, irrc). So unless SKT1 dominates and gets a quick 4-0 or something we'll probably see him play there, possible twice.

If he shows power in his MST games and PL game(s) then, yes, he will likely get a mid spot. The top spots will be to Flash, JD, Hydra. ZerO will probably also get an advantage over Bisu thanks to more playoff games, even though punishing Bisu for helping SKT1 get #1 seems odd.

But the month is still early. OSL Ro16 and MST still have to be decided. But if he 2-0s and does decent in PL finals I see no reason he can't be ~5-7.
Broodwar and Stork forever! List of BW players with most Ro16, Ro8: http://tinyurl.com/BWRo16-Ro8
ffreakk
Profile Joined September 2010
Singapore2155 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 09:46:49
July 15 2011 09:45 GMT
#402
On July 15 2011 16:55 Crisium wrote:
You mean MSL (MST).

Well, I'm guessing Flamewheel will wait until after PL finals (August 6th, irrc). So unless SKT1 dominates and gets a quick 4-0 or something we'll probably see him play there, possible twice.

If he shows power in his MST games and PL game(s) then, yes, he will likely get a mid spot. The top spots will be to Flash, JD, Hydra. ZerO will probably also get an advantage over Bisu thanks to more playoff games, even though punishing Bisu for helping SKT1 get #1 seems odd.

But the month is still early. OSL Ro16 and MST still have to be decided. But if he 2-0s and does decent in PL finals I see no reason he can't be ~5-7.


Im not happy with that >.<

2-0 the MST (not OSL, my bad xD) and carrying your team to SPL's championship (IF, since you assumed that), all the while being the definite Ace and setting a few awesome records only get you number 5-7?.. What have scrubs (pardon the word, i dont like him :p) like Hydra done to warrant a higher spot than that? =/ (and no, playing Cyclops-style doesnt mean anything in my eyes :3)
Look. Only Forward. See. Only Victory.
Vasoline73
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States7875 Posts
July 15 2011 10:34 GMT
#403
I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 15 2011 13:00 GMT
#404
On July 15 2011 19:34 Vasoline73 wrote:
I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.

A lingering voice in the back of my head tells me this is probably not happening
Writer
ghrur
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3786 Posts
July 15 2011 13:03 GMT
#405
On July 15 2011 22:00 swanized wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2011 19:34 Vasoline73 wrote:
I feel like Bisu beating his MST group 2-0 in dominating fashion + carrying his team to the gold (assuming SKT wins and Bisu plays) should be alot more than a mid spot.

A lingering voice in the back of my head tells me this is probably not happening


It probably will since he's not in the group of death anymore, and it shouldn't conflict with SPL finals quite yet.
darkness overpowering
Kipsate
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Netherlands45349 Posts
July 15 2011 13:25 GMT
#406
Have you seen Bisu his group?

If he doesn't make it out of the MST then its pathetic imo.
WriterXiao8~~
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 13:27:38
July 15 2011 13:26 GMT
#407
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.

Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.

Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.



I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
WWJDD
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
India342 Posts
July 15 2011 13:35 GMT
#408
On July 13 2011 20:36 agarangu wrote:
Fuck yeah Flash! Looks like the treatment is working pretty well.


Well, that and Hydra is still intimidated by Flash, so he doesn't play at his best. Double whammy when you play the greatest ZvTer currently.
WWJDD??
WWJDD
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
India342 Posts
July 15 2011 13:41 GMT
#409
And now JD is on a 10 win-streak.
WWJDD??
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 13:56:59
July 15 2011 13:52 GMT
#410
On July 15 2011 22:25 Kipsate wrote:
Have you seen Bisu his group?

If he doesn't make it out of the MST then its pathetic imo.

yeah they're all just as bad as hyvaa

oh wait...

(joking aside it would be pretty laughable if bisu didn't make it)

On July 15 2011 22:35 WWJDD wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 13 2011 20:36 agarangu wrote:
Fuck yeah Flash! Looks like the treatment is working pretty well.


Well, that and Hydra is still intimidated by Flash, so he doesn't play at his best. Double whammy when you play the greatest ZvTer currently.

I would say Jaedong and zero (and maybe soulkey) are clearly better at ZvT then hydra...
Writer
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 15 2011 14:23 GMT
#411
JD and Zero are better at ZvT. At ZvP it's a little hard to tell. At ZvZ I'm tempted to say JD or Hydra, but Zero has also been good there lately.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 16:05:57
July 15 2011 14:43 GMT
#412
On July 15 2011 23:23 Mortality wrote:
JD and Zero are better at ZvT. At ZvP it's a little hard to tell. At ZvZ I'm tempted to say JD or Hydra, but Zero has also been good there lately.

yeah I would favor Jaedong and Hydra in a ZvZ against zero in spite of his current form

it's a pretty cool battle for #1 zerg though
Writer
Holgerius
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Sweden16951 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-15 15:38:59
July 15 2011 15:38 GMT
#413
Ya.

Both Zero and JD are on 10 game winning streaks and Hydra is 8-2, and all three of them were in the MSL semi-finals last season. XD JD is still JD, so the throne still belongs to him, but the competition for the being the top zerg is really, really tough right now. And Effort is coming back soon as well. Things are looking really good for the swarm.

I have a strong feeling that we're gonna see a lot of Flash vs Zerg at the later stages of the Starleagues.
I believe in the almighty Grötslev! -- I am never serious and you should never believe a thing I say. Including the previous sentence.
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
July 15 2011 18:26 GMT
#414
bisu should be considered for #3 or even #2 if he makes MSL 2-0 (beating baby or even dear might not be so trivial...) and contributes strongly in PL finals (especially if he _beats_ hydra). and he actually does have a history of making it out of MST at least... though his MSL/OSL group stage results are much more amusing, especially when he went out 0-2 to all-zerg groups that he created multiple times XD
Writer
swanized
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
Canada2480 Posts
July 15 2011 19:18 GMT
#415
On July 16 2011 03:26 ]343[ wrote:
bisu should be considered for #3 or even #2 if he makes MSL 2-0 (beating baby or even dear might not be so trivial...) and contributes strongly in PL finals (especially if he _beats_hydra zero). and he actually does have a history of making it out of MST at least... though his MSL/OSL group stage results are much more amusing, especially when he went out 0-2 to all-zerg groups that he created multiple times XD

Writer
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 15 2011 21:25 GMT
#416
Beating Hydra or Zero would be a major boon for Bisu in terms of PR. Both of them historically go about 50/50 against him and both of them have achieved convincing wins against him in the not-too--distant past.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
aupstar
Profile Joined June 2007
Australia912 Posts
July 15 2011 23:11 GMT
#417
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote:
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.

Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.

Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.



I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.


I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..

Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.

Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..
Firebats, the natural enemy of octozerg
setzer
Profile Joined March 2010
United States3284 Posts
July 15 2011 23:18 GMT
#418
On July 16 2011 08:11 aupstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote:
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.

Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.

Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.



I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.


I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..

Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.

Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..


Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....

There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.
aupstar
Profile Joined June 2007
Australia912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-16 00:05:01
July 16 2011 00:04 GMT
#419
On July 16 2011 08:18 setzer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2011 08:11 aupstar wrote:
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote:
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.

Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.

Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.



I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.


I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..

Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.

Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..


Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....

There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.


Fair point but it would make the next month's ranking pretty boring no? lol

I've always considered the PR as more of a monthly ranking but I guess it's up to the writer and how much free time he has to determine what days to count and what results to consider for the rank. Though I must say, it's rather inconsistent to consider 30 days for the rank one month and then 23 days the next given all the games that are/aren't being considered in those 7 days.

It really makes you think whether you can compare a player on the PR from one month to the next.
Firebats, the natural enemy of octozerg
]343[
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States10328 Posts
July 16 2011 02:53 GMT
#420
On July 16 2011 09:04 aupstar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 16 2011 08:18 setzer wrote:
On July 16 2011 08:11 aupstar wrote:
On July 15 2011 22:26 Mortality wrote:
First of all, if PL playoffs end August 6 it may make sense for Flamewheel to wait. I know that a number of people here are Nazis about monthly delivery of ranking, SCBW progaming is NOT structured on a monthly schedule.

Second, it will depend a lot on HOW Bisu plays as opposed to just his stats alone.

Third, Bisu has proven himself enough in recent history that if he plays well he will be on the ranking.



I see no circumstances AT ALL in which Bisu would drop below #5 if he 2-0's his MST group convincingly and carries his team to gold. Most likely such results would move him up to top 3. Possibly all the way to the top depending on exactly how things happen. Too many variables to say exactly. A lot will depend on Flash/JD/Hydra/Zero. Those 4 and Bisu are the only players I see in contention of a top 5 spot right if the ranking were made right now.


I don't think it's fair to wait...the PL finals should be counted in the following month's rankings..

Otherwise it sets a bad precedent for finals in the future where we may end up waiting 'till mid/late month just to see the results before making a judgement on how good a player may be.

Lets keep it on time and be a proper representation of how the players faired in the previous month..


Um, it wouldn't be the first time a PR writer waits for an important series to end. There is a difference between waiting for two weeks and 6 days, which brings on my next point ....

There has never been a specific date PR is released. It has been different for many different writers. Furthermore, this isn't a monthly ranking, but a ranking that comes out every month. Flamewheel considers past performances to help make his ranking. If an important series is going to determine two spots (like a possible CJ vs SK finals; Hydra vs Bisu) it simply makes sense to wait for that series if it has an effect on the top spot.


Fair point but it would make the next month's ranking pretty boring no? lol

I've always considered the PR as more of a monthly ranking but I guess it's up to the writer and how much free time he has to determine what days to count and what results to consider for the rank. Though I must say, it's rather inconsistent to consider 30 days for the rank one month and then 23 days the next given all the games that are/aren't being considered in those 7 days.

It really makes you think whether you can compare a player on the PR from one month to the next.


pretty sure this rank was made after the MSL finals, for example. i agree that next month's rank will be boring and crappy other than OSL, but such is life.
Writer
Prev 1 19 20 21 22 23 39 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Patches Events
00:00
The 5.4k Patch Clash #17
CranKy Ducklings136
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
ProTech131
StarCraft: Brood War
GuemChi 6323
Mind 206
910 59
Nal_rA 35
NaDa 32
Noble 17
Dota 2
monkeys_forever638
NeuroSwarm91
League of Legends
Doublelift3416
JimRising 721
Counter-Strike
tarik_tv5671
taco 846
Super Smash Bros
hungrybox1130
Mew2King62
Other Games
summit1g8704
C9.Mang0930
WinterStarcraft418
Maynarde132
ViBE85
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick759
BasetradeTV349
Dota 2
PGL Dota 2 - Main Stream52
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
[ Show 14 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP35
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• RayReign 24
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Rush558
• Lourlo485
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
5h 47m
Afreeca Starleague
6h 47m
Jaedong vs Light
Wardi Open
7h 47m
Monday Night Weeklies
12h 47m
Replay Cast
20h 47m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 6h
Afreeca Starleague
1d 6h
Snow vs Flash
WardiTV Invitational
1d 7h
SHIN vs Nicoract
Solar vs Nice
GSL
2 days
Classic vs Cure
Maru vs Rogue
GSL
3 days
SHIN vs Zoun
ByuN vs herO
[ Show More ]
OSC
3 days
OSC
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
Escore
4 days
The PondCast
4 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
Zoun vs Ryung
Lambo vs ShoWTimE
Replay Cast
4 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
SHIN vs Bunny
ByuN vs Shameless
WardiTV Invitational
5 days
Krystianer vs TriGGeR
Cure vs Rogue
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
5 days
BSL
5 days
Replay Cast
5 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
RSL Revival
6 days
Cure vs Zoun
Clem vs Lambo
WardiTV Invitational
6 days
BSL
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-05-02
WardiTV TLMC #16
Nations Cup 2026

Ongoing

BSL Season 22
ASL Season 21
CSL 2026 SPRING (S20)
IPSL Spring 2026
KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 2
Acropolis #4
SCTL 2026 Spring
RSL Revival: Season 5
2026 GSL S1
BLAST Rivals Spring 2026
IEM Rio 2026
PGL Bucharest 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 1
BLAST Open Spring 2026
ESL Pro League S23 Finals
ESL Pro League S23 Stage 1&2
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026

Upcoming

YSL S3
Escore Tournament S2: W6
KK 2v2 League Season 1
BSL 22 Non-Korean Championship
Escore Tournament S2: W7
Escore Tournament S2: W8
CSLAN 4
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
HSC XXIX
uThermal 2v2 2026 Main Event
Maestros of the Game 2
2026 GSL S2
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026
IEM Cologne Major 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 2
CS Asia Championships 2026
Asian Champions League 2026
IEM Atlanta 2026
PGL Astana 2026
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.