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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
This thread seems the perfect example of why Destiny's argument on Weapon of Choice was so wrong. Destiny lost out on an opportunity due to his language (inferred from the J. Lake comment about professionalism) or possibly his participation. I am not saying I know everything about Destiny but from what I have heard from him he seems like he has carved out his own alternate reality which finally collided with the real world. I am glad Destiny has a unique point of view but this self-righteous attitude of avoiding "selling-out" as other have put it is starting to seem disingenuous.
I guess it is right to give complexity props for letting Destiny out of the contract he signed if only just a little. We all make mistakes and as Destiny said the contract signing was handled pretty unprofessionally but I just hope that this is a lesson to other players for signing rather than a sign that you can do whatever you want.
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On June 25 2011 19:08 SlipperySnake wrote:
This thread seems the perfect example of why Destiny's argument on Weapon of Choice was so wrong. Destiny lost out on an opportunity due to his language (inferred from the J. Lake comment about professionalism) or possibly his participation. I am not saying I know everything about Destiny but from what I have heard from him he seems like he has carved out his own alternate reality which finally collided with the real world. I am glad Destiny has a unique point of view but this self-righteous attitude of avoiding "selling-out" as other have put it is starting to seem disingenuous.
I guess it is right to give complexity props for letting Destiny out of the contract he signed if only just a little. We all make mistakes and as Destiny said the contract signing was handled pretty unprofessionally but I just hope that this is a lesson to other players for signing rather than a sign that you can do whatever you want.
Seems like you didn't read the thread at all
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On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 24 2011 18:59 MaHi wrote:
It never stops amaze me how much are Americans butthurt over just a words. It must be so crazy to live in society where everyone is his/her own censor O_o
I mean arent you little bit too concerned about this whole "racist" thing? How come that you all in America ( as I observed ) dont even write stuff like nigger etc? For me its so much more racist to write or say something like N-word instead of nigga, cause when you use that in order not to insult someone, it means you are concerned about someones race = you make difference between races = you are the real racist... yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language.
You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing.
On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made.
The point is not the word will not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language.
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Destiny is a good guy, best of luck!
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On June 25 2011 15:05 Jonesin wrote:
But getting back to DESTINY, I have watched his streams a couple of days, and I do believe he has toned it down with respects with the racist word "nigger"
What the fuck? I've watched his stream a ton (two monitors makes it easy) and never heard him even say the word. He hasn't toned anything down. Just because he defends a word, you assume he must use it constantly?
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On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 24 2011 18:59 MaHi wrote:
It never stops amaze me how much are Americans butthurt over just a words. It must be so crazy to live in society where everyone is his/her own censor O_o
I mean arent you little bit too concerned about this whole "racist" thing? How come that you all in America ( as I observed ) dont even write stuff like nigger etc? For me its so much more racist to write or say something like N-word instead of nigga, cause when you use that in order not to insult someone, it means you are concerned about someones race = you make difference between races = you are the real racist... yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language.
How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation.
Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does.
Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world.
I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it.
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When you're making money (as in people are giving you money) for it, certain expectations are to be met. eSports have been trying for years to get out of this "kids playing a video-game" box that non-gamers are using to dismiss it, by being professional and hosting big tournaments, grabbing bigger sponsors and having players bound by contract to make sure they represent the community in the right way.
It's a video game. People are free to put money in or not. The fact that Destiny is attracting thousands upon thousands of viewers is only going to encourage businesses to put more money into SC2, not take it out.
This sounds a lot like the whole thing with "shock jocks" like Howard Stern in the 90's. If you don't know who this guy is, basically he was.... shocking, on the air. He's a nice guy, he never said anything racist or anything like that, but he would do some really ridiculous stuff on air (ie the word cock is not allowed on air in reference to penis, but find ways to say it, cock-a-doodle-doo,).
Anyways, he was #1 on the radio everywhere he went. A lot of companies cried about him, a lot of sponsors ditched him, a lot of people said his 'behavior' was too much....
But he had all of New York listening. He was the #1 Radio in the country. And despite companies complaining about him, many more went to advertise with him.
So if you think that the #1 SC2 streamer is 'suffering' because of his vulgar language, you are sadly mistaken. I imagine Destiny makes much money than much more 'successful' streamers who are 'proper'.
TLDR Companies and businesses ultimately don't care about how vulgar you are, but if you bring in the money. Destiny brings in the money.
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On June 26 2011 03:20 Belial88 wrote:TLDR Companies and businesses ultimately don't care about how vulgar you are, but if you bring in the money. Destiny brings in the money.
I agree with that - but wanted to say, I don't think Destiny swears just to his shock his audience and get more viewers (not that it sounded like you were saying that, but I guess some people think he is a total 'shock jock') - I think he just speaks his mind without worrying about what others thinks. And that censoring and editing himself goes against his grain too much. I've heard some stuff said by him that would make even sailors blush - and that's what many will remember him for, but I've also heard him have conversations go on a while without any colorful language. He's complex like that :D
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I feel like this is a good thing for Destiny because they last thing I would want to see is a team preventing him from doing what he loves. Like Day9 and DJ Wheat. I would never want to see them join a team. They all should remain independent so that they can control their content/lifestyle/life independently.
Good luck in the future Destiny and thank you for everything you have done for the Starcraft 2 community!
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On June 25 2011 19:13 Kuni wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 19:08 SlipperySnake wrote:
This thread seems the perfect example of why Destiny's argument on Weapon of Choice was so wrong. Destiny lost out on an opportunity due to his language (inferred from the J. Lake comment about professionalism) or possibly his participation. I am not saying I know everything about Destiny but from what I have heard from him he seems like he has carved out his own alternate reality which finally collided with the real world. I am glad Destiny has a unique point of view but this self-righteous attitude of avoiding "selling-out" as other have put it is starting to seem disingenuous.
I guess it is right to give complexity props for letting Destiny out of the contract he signed if only just a little. We all make mistakes and as Destiny said the contract signing was handled pretty unprofessionally but I just hope that this is a lesson to other players for signing rather than a sign that you can do whatever you want. Seems like you didn't read the thread at all
Yeah sure seems like it. Destiny didn't lose out on anything. He left, it was his choice, and coL's choice to honor it and release him.
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i think the best thing to do is for mods to close this thread.
its just making people angry for no reason.
both coL and Destiny did what they felt was best for both sides.
EVEN if this is a drama, there is no reason for fans to blow it up like this.
imo this thread shouldve been closed with <100 posts.
now its just people randomly picking sides and saying stuff
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On June 26 2011 13:35 onedayclose wrote:
I feel like this is a good thing for Destiny because they last thing I would want to see is a team preventing him from doing what he loves. Like Day9 and DJ Wheat. I would never want to see them join a team. They all should remain independent so that they can control their content/lifestyle/life independently.
Good luck in the future Destiny and thank you for everything you have done for the Starcraft 2 community!
You didn't read the thread...coL would not prevent Destiny from doing what he loves.
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On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 24 2011 18:59 MaHi wrote:
It never stops amaze me how much are Americans butthurt over just a words. It must be so crazy to live in society where everyone is his/her own censor O_o
I mean arent you little bit too concerned about this whole "racist" thing? How come that you all in America ( as I observed ) dont even write stuff like nigger etc? For me its so much more racist to write or say something like N-word instead of nigga, cause when you use that in order not to insult someone, it means you are concerned about someones race = you make difference between races = you are the real racist... yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it.
OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote.
I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote?
The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even.
Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary.
Science!
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On June 26 2011 09:45 Stil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 03:20 Belial88 wrote:TLDR Companies and businesses ultimately don't care about how vulgar you are, but if you bring in the money. Destiny brings in the money. I agree with that - but wanted to say, I don't think Destiny swears just to his shock his audience and get more viewers (not that it sounded like you were saying that, but I guess some people think he is a total 'shock jock') - I think he just speaks his mind without worrying about what others thinks. And that censoring and editing himself goes against his grain too much. I've heard some stuff said by him that would make even sailors blush - and that's what many will remember him for, but I've also heard him have conversations go on a while without any colorful language. He's complex like that :D
What the hell? That's not complexity that's an average human being. Literally everyone that's made it through high school should be able to hold an intelligent conversation with anyone about anything without using profanity. And let's be clear--that's all it is, profanity, it's just meaningless words to emphasize the rest of your sentence or exclaim something.
Furthermore, why are people commending him or even .. holding him to some better than average status for defending his point of view? Specifically, a point of view that originated long ago and is in no way new or revolutionary.
In regards to Destiny's usage of language, if you think he doesn't drop racial slurs you're very mistaken, if you need to hear him say it to believe it, feel free to google a Destiny soundboard, they exist.
Destiny isn't trying to shock anyone by using language we've been hearing for over a hundred years, that's naive to think. I don't have any particular issue with him, but the rampant fanboyism is a little out of hand, especially since it's almost universally disingenuous towards him and simultaneously empty and meaningless. The number of quasi-Destiny-hipster's in this thread is enough to choke a goat out. People like him because he's controversial, and the moment he's not, he's too mainstream and you'll stop watching him..
I've read through almost the entire thread, and the number of times I've seen people say something (in general) along these lines was hilariously telling: "Destiny made the right choice to leave Complexity, otherwise he'd lose viewership, go Destiny!" Does anyone else notice the ironic face-smashingly huge insult in that Destiny sandwich of words?
You could otherwise say that sentence like this and it'll hold the exact same meaning: "Destiny made the right choice in leaving Complexity, if he had to censor himself people would no longer find him interesting and stop watching him, I don't remotely like him for who he is or his caliber of skill, I'd literally just rather listen to his stream while browsing the internet and laugh, go Destiny!" I read dozens upon -dozens- of posts saying basically that--"Hey I'm a huge fan of destiny, it's good he's not on that team, otherwise he'd lose viewership!"--how much do his fans really like him if a such a vocal group of people all have that feeling towards him?
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Eh, it sucks cause signing up with a team like this would have been a step in the right direction if he was serious in getting better. But I suppose this is what happens if you insist on not 'selling out'.
And to all the people who are saying 'But it is his stream and his domain so he should be able to act how he wants' clearly don't have any understanding about what it means to be a high profile figure representing a company. It doesn't matter if you he doesn't have 'coLDestiny' on his stream, people associate him with Complexity and he is ALWAYS representing them. Take a look at Tiger Woods for example. His credibility was completely destroyed and he lost the vast majority of his sponsors because of the whole scandal he had with cheating on his wife; something that many may argue is his 'personal business'. But thats just how things work. And all that happened because he cheated on his wife; I would most definitely argue that Destiny using racial slurs and making rape jokes is a whole notch above adultery. Regardless if he doesn't mean it in a malicious way.
When it comes to businesses and sponsorship Starcraft 2 isn't a game, and they DO expect a degree of professionalism at all times. If people want to actually make this industry professional and sustainable they are going to have to accept that.
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On June 25 2011 10:24 schmeebs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 10:15 lowreezy08 wrote:
53 pages because someone got cut from a team over a video game... welcome to a forum about discussing a video game, where we discuss things that involve people that play said video game.
I think he just means its crazy to have this much discussion and speculation over something so trivial. A player hastily signed with a team but then changed his mind so he decided not to sign. It's nothing unusual and there's absolutely no animosity between the two sides, Destiny just felt Col. wasn't for him and that's it; literally spending more than 30 seconds on the issue would be a waste of time. Then people who love creating drama enter and put forth useless speculations, cast judgement on the player, attacking his integrity and professionalism, saying he doesn't know how the real world works despite Destiny having a house and a kid, and top it off with the "it's bad for esports" bullshit.
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I think Destiny makes more money off his stream than he would if he was contracted by a team (this is assuming team obligations would cut into his streaming significantly).
There was a thread where Destiny gave a pretty candid breakdown of his income from streaming. It is a surprising amount of money, like $42 to 50K a year.
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On June 26 2011 20:07 Defacer wrote:
I think Destiny makes more money off his stream than he would if he was contracted by a team (this is assuming team obligations would cut into his streaming significantly).
There was a thread where Destiny gave a pretty candid breakdown of his income from streaming. It is a surprising amount of money, like $42 to 50K a year.
Can probably increase it a bit depending on how many appearances Combat Ex makes.
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On June 26 2011 20:08 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:07 Defacer wrote:
I think Destiny makes more money off his stream than he would if he was contracted by a team (this is assuming team obligations would cut into his streaming significantly).
There was a thread where Destiny gave a pretty candid breakdown of his income from streaming. It is a surprising amount of money, like $42 to 50K a year.
Can probably increase it a bit depending on how many appearances Combat Ex makes.
He didn't run a commercial the entire time Combat was on though, he could have made 5$ a commercial >.<
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On June 26 2011 20:11 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:08 vyyye wrote:On June 26 2011 20:07 Defacer wrote:
I think Destiny makes more money off his stream than he would if he was contracted by a team (this is assuming team obligations would cut into his streaming significantly).
There was a thread where Destiny gave a pretty candid breakdown of his income from streaming. It is a surprising amount of money, like $42 to 50K a year.
Can probably increase it a bit depending on how many appearances Combat Ex makes. He didn't run a commercial the entire time Combat was on though, he could have made 5$ a commercial >.<
Pah, why the fuck not. The money could have sponsored Queen of the Hill if he didn't want it for himself. Bloody principles.
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EPT
