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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship.
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On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship.
I don't think you understand how Destiny's stream works. Particularly when it comes to viewer numbers and advertisement revenue.
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On June 26 2011 20:28 vyyye wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship. I don't think you understand how Destiny's stream works. Particularly when it comes to viewer numbers and advertisement revenue.
Stop trying to be a smartarse. I'm not talking about how Destiny makes money from streaming, I was talking about how his behavior makes him unattractive to potential sponsors.
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lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage
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On June 26 2011 20:32 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:28 vyyye wrote:On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship. I don't think you understand how Destiny's stream works. Particularly when it comes to viewer numbers and advertisement revenue. Stop trying to be a smartarse. I'm not talking about how Destiny makes money from streaming, I was talking about how his behavior makes him unattractive to potential sponsors.
Destiny's entire appeal is based on being a bit of an unhinged, temperamental spaz. You might as well take away his keyboard and mouse while you're at it!
Seriously though, Destiny's personality and behaviour is what allows him to make a living, it might be unattractive to potential sponsors but it's good enough to make money of Justin.tv
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On June 26 2011 20:40 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:32 Ryder. wrote:On June 26 2011 20:28 vyyye wrote:On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship. I don't think you understand how Destiny's stream works. Particularly when it comes to viewer numbers and advertisement revenue. Stop trying to be a smartarse. I'm not talking about how Destiny makes money from streaming, I was talking about how his behavior makes him unattractive to potential sponsors. Destiny's entire appeal is based on being a bit of an unhinged, temperamental spaz. You might as well take away his keyboard and mouse while you're at it! Seriously though, Destiny's personality and behaviour is what allows him to make a living, it might be unattractive to potential sponsors but it's good enough to make money of Justin.tv
Yes, I am fully aware of that. I was merely addressing all the people in this thread who insist that as a (former) sponsor coL has no right in expecting Destiny to behave in a particular way whilst representing their team. I'm under no illusion that his appeal is due to his talent as opposed to his personality.
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Bottom line is that its team Complexity not Team destiny.
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On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage
I think it's very generous of Idra to give people his fingers tbh :/
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Doesn't surprise me. I used to watch destiny's stream until he started trolling over the tsunami/japan and stating radical political beliefs I scarcely ever hear from a normal day to day person. It led me to the conclusion that destiny barely exists outside of his stream and because of that he doesn't understand how to behave around other people.
I can understand why people who are in general bitter people would enjoy the stream, "rage, yada yada, anti establishment yada yada, bmbm drama drama" but the fact that destiny couldn't measure up to other players in having a "professional attitude" is not shocking to most, to say the least.
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On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 24 2011 18:59 MaHi wrote:
It never stops amaze me how much are Americans butthurt over just a words. It must be so crazy to live in society where everyone is his/her own censor O_o
I mean arent you little bit too concerned about this whole "racist" thing? How come that you all in America ( as I observed ) dont even write stuff like nigger etc? For me its so much more racist to write or say something like N-word instead of nigga, cause when you use that in order not to insult someone, it means you are concerned about someones race = you make difference between races = you are the real racist... yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science!
Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle.
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I don't think Destiny will be picked up any time soon by any big team. Hasn't really won anything he's just a ladder hero.
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On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary.
Science!
Thank you for this. 
If a word is "harmless" in all circumstances other than in the presence of an entire fucking race, than obviously the word isn't as malleable as previously thought.
Why aren't WASPs trying to co-opt the word kike?
"Hey man, whatcha up to?"
"Oh, just kiking around."
It's totally harmless, except in synagogues, most public institutions, New York City ...
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On June 26 2011 20:48 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:40 Defacer wrote:On June 26 2011 20:32 Ryder. wrote:On June 26 2011 20:28 vyyye wrote:On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship. I don't think you understand how Destiny's stream works. Particularly when it comes to viewer numbers and advertisement revenue. Stop trying to be a smartarse. I'm not talking about how Destiny makes money from streaming, I was talking about how his behavior makes him unattractive to potential sponsors. Destiny's entire appeal is based on being a bit of an unhinged, temperamental spaz. You might as well take away his keyboard and mouse while you're at it! Seriously though, Destiny's personality and behaviour is what allows him to make a living, it might be unattractive to potential sponsors but it's good enough to make money of Justin.tv Yes, I am fully aware of that. I was merely addressing all the people in this thread who insist that as a (former) sponsor coL has no right in expecting Destiny to behave in a particular way whilst representing their team. I'm under no illusion that his appeal is due to his talent as opposed to his personality.
I wasn't saying that. I was saying that there's no reason to believe that when Destiny is at tournaments/events/interviews he will behave inappropriately. It's pretty obvious that his behaviour isn't anything to do with him leaving coL.
Frankly, people who talk about how no sponsor is going to pick him up are being incredibly melodramatic. The way he talks on his stream is really nothing out of the ordinary for any of the streams on TL. The only reason people are making him out to be some kind of swearing racist monster is because he went on state of the game (and other places) and defended the way he talks on his stream. People heard him talk there, and assumed that because he has to defend himself that he is super offensive.
The reality is that he's no more offensive than many players with teams who don't get any attention for BM/swearing etc
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Recently corporations have put morality clauses in contracts of their workers which basically allows them to can you if you do something bad/unmoral for PR outside of your job. It's mainly seen for celebrities or athletes. You can either accept the job/contract or not, since no one is forcing you to work there.
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On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:
[quote]
yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah
must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle.
Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:
"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable"
The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them.
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On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:
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They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them.
And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that.
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Wow. People are STILL complaining about Destiny's mannerisms in his personal stream? If you don't like it, don't watch it. And just a disclaimer, I don't really watch Destiny's stream anymore either. However, it is his stream and he'll do what he wants. While it's unfortunate that he and complexity parted ways, it is for the best.
Destiny is still kind of iffy in tournaments. Still hasn't had any great results, so it's best to have him staying doing what he does on stream for his revenue.... if CoL was trying to control how he streamed as well.
And please, in regards to BM, I bet some of you love certain players because of their BM but you love them because of their "higher skill" as well. If Destiny actually won something and didn't change his personality, I could predict the bandwagon doing a 180.
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^ I like Destiny because he's entertaining to watch. He's good, he's not pro, but he's better than me so I can watch his games and learn something from them, and I can also see things I think I do better.
I personally don't have a lot of time to watch games, and what little time I do have, I prefer to use actually playing the game. But if it's a choice to watching the GSL, or just watching a quick showmatch of Destiny vs Combatex, I choose the latter.
I hope he wins some tournaments, but as it stands he's good enough to provide entertaining games, and his personality as well as him being so personable, and responding to my emails and me being able to actually talk to him, goes a long way. If he were to change how he acts and censor himself, he just wouldn't be as entertaining. I get a lot of laughs from his 'immature' "you suck, get ready to be penetrated' comments, and if he changed I know I wouldn't watch. There's a lot better players out there, and there's a reason I don't watch them.
It's also VERY entertaining to see someone breaking into the pro scene. I feel I can relate a lot more to a guy who's just okay, but he's learning the game, and dealing with just regular life issues and the transition into becoming pro. I almost feel like it could be me, I can relate to it more. If he just dissapeared into a pro team, I wouldn't be able to relate to him anymore. With ROOT, he chronicled what happened, still streamed, even had CatZ and Minigun on the stream, and that was great. But with Complexity, maybe he wouldn't have been able to do that, or would not have been great friends with Cruncher and the rest of the team, and as a viewer see as how Destiny, the new team member, related to his superior and better team mate bringing him in, coaching him, and just talking with him. ROOT was great for him, and for me as a viewer, and if Complexity didnt' take part in his stream and have that bond with Destiny that we could enjoy, it wouldn't have been as entertaining.
I know there may be a bit of conflict between the viewer and Destiny to become better. Sure. I'm just saying what I like. Obviously, as a viewer, I'm most interested in seeing his transition to become better, and don't want to see him stagnate. And maybe it would be better for his stream to go off while he practices hardcore. But I'm just saying why I like Destiny.
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On June 26 2011 20:22 Ryder. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I don't think you understand how the world works. Particularily when it comes to businesses and sponsorship.
Actually Destiny is doing the best business decision for himself, at the present time. Stream freedom = more viewers = more revenue. It's debatable if it's a bad business decision to disregard future earning potentials from being on a team, especially for a player who isn't in the very top.
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On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it.
And who complexity sponsors is their business. If you're going to talk about free speech, then they have the right to drop anyone for any reason they want. If they didn't like him using the word 'purple' they could choose to drop him for that.
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