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It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:
[quote]
. . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are.
And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary.
People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding.
Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar.
Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that.
If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is.
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Yeah just sounds like he misunderstood the contract situation and jumped in a little but then went with what he felt like from the beginning. Professionally handled by coL definitely. That would be a team I would like to join ^^ Good luck for the future Steven!
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On June 25 2011 23:55 Sky Net wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 15:05 Jonesin wrote:
But getting back to DESTINY, I have watched his streams a couple of days, and I do believe he has toned it down with respects with the racist word "nigger"
What the fuck? I've watched his stream a ton (two monitors makes it easy) and never heard him even say the word. He hasn't toned anything down. Just because he defends a word, you assume he must use it constantly?
I've heard him use that word more then a few times.
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On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with.
Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality.
I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 06:42 Aeo wrote:
You just made Destiny's own case—that context trumps diction. No one is advocating walking into a predominately black bar and slinging "nigger" around indiscriminately. That would be insensitive, and probably contribute to acute anemia in your future.
In the case of the n-word, and several others, the feeling conveyed by the word—connotation—has remained the same for as long as they've been in use. But in the gaming community in particular, the actual, literal denotation of the word has changed over time. It happens; it's called semantic shift and without it, there'd be no need for the field of etymology.
More to the point, insisting that the word remain both derogatory and pertain to the group of people it was meant to apply to only makes it more of an issue. That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens. And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it. There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . . It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Show nested quote +Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is.
Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change.
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can't we just all get along?
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On June 27 2011 08:02 Ocedic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 13:07 fareed_d wrote:
How he acts on his stream is his business. If you don't like it, don't watch it. And who complexity sponsors is their business. If you're going to talk about free speech, then they have the right to drop anyone for any reason they want. If they didn't like him using the word 'purple' they could choose to drop him for that.
i love how the community seems to care more then destiny or col...
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On June 27 2011 09:47 karlmengsk wrote:
can't we just all get along?
agreed. why cant there be more love in the forums. There should be some love mods that shoot some of the haters with ban(aka love) arrows lol then there only would 5 pages of text to read. Every bodys entitled to there opinion.
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On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage
im pretty sure being racist is bad manner that actually matters, idra's bm is for the show
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On June 27 2011 09:51 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage im pretty sure being racist is bad manner that actually matters, idra's bm is for the show
idra racist to terran
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I ♥ you destiny, come to my house and be on my team 
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On June 27 2011 09:51 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage im pretty sure being racist is bad manner that actually matters, idra's bm is for the show
How is Destiny racist? And saying the word nigger doesn't make you a racist... unless I'm a closet racist GASP! It's just ridiculous.
And what exactly are people arguing about here anyways? That they don't like Destiny, or that he should tone it down? I mean it's pretty clear both Complexity and Destiny are fine with how things went down. The idea that Destiny is racist or that complexity denies free speech is ridiculous though, just because Destiny has used a word does not mean he's racist, albeit insensitive.
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On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:
[quote]
Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group?
So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with?
"Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult?
My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment. The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 07:16 zeek0us wrote:
[quote]
That's utter bullshit. In fact, you just made my point. The only difference in "context" between a bar and the internet is that in the former case, there are repercussions for using "nigger", whereas on the internet nothing happens.
And there's no change in the "actual, literal denotation" of the word. Just because kids on the internet spew it left and right doesn't signify a change in meaning. There's just nothing stopping them from using it.
There's no issue if people just don't use racial slurs with impunity. Once again I ask, if you're not trying to offend people of a particular group, what reason is there for using the word that exists to denigrate them? At best it's simply meaningless, like a white kid calling another white kid a "nigger". At worst, it's got the same intent as some southern hick 60 years ago calling a black dude a "nigger" before he hung him for whistling at a white woman . . .
It's not like the word has lost its meaning, nor has that meaning changed. It's just that people don't give a fuck about saying things that would be completely taboo in any context except one where they are completely anonymous and free from any consequences. So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change.
Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway.
Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet.
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I think a lesser known team will definitely want to pick up destiny so they can make the announcement thread and get known. It's doubtful any of the current professional teams will pick him up, he's simply not at the level where he can deliver results.
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On June 27 2011 09:51 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage im pretty sure being racist is bad manner that actually matters, idra's bm is for the show
I don't think either of them are racist so this is kind of irrelevant... I'm glad you know his is for show while Destiny's is genuine.
This whole thread has gone way off topic.
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Saying a word doesn't make you racist anymore than using a spatula makes you a chef. All context people. Perhaps you will all learn it eventually.
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This situation seemed to have handled itself appropriately imo. It could've been a much bigger shitstorm, but it seemed to have worked out best for both parties. Steven is a huge streamer, and from the point of view a big team like col., Destiny seems like a huge liability (due to controversial manner of speaking, and what not), without the reward (isn't yet a "top" level pro who has yet to put up solid tournament placements).
And Destiny probably got what he wanted, which is to just do his streaming stuff in peace without having to deal the bureaucratic/corporate red tape.
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<3 Destiny so much. Keep making those brofestors! Hopefully another team will pick him up and let him be himself.
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On June 23 2011 05:43 Zanno wrote:
it's not like he's winning anything
he's bombed out very early of two open tournaments in a row now, so i'm not sure why anyone regards this player as valuable. other players players typically touted as "bad" would cruise through the first 4 or 5 rounds of any open bracket with ease.
much better players than him also failed to survive the mlg open bracket, the vast majority of pros struggle to outright win many tourneys. so in terms of delivering results hes as good as the majority of his peers, but he brings alot of brand exposure and advertising which is something most people cant offer.
with no open bracket streaming who cares how far he gets in that, it doesnt do anything for his team going out round 1 or round 8
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On June 24 2011 00:57 coljbass wrote:
...maybe because we said he could not be racist but that was the only part of what he does we were going to "censor".
I have a massive problem with this sentence. It portrays/implies Steven is in fact a racist, and you told him he couldn't be any more. Steven has stated many times he is NOT racist, and has people of various backgrounds (including black and gay) on his stream a good amount of times.
This being said, I challenge anyone to find the word "nigger" on Stevens stream in any context besides this vary argument.
That being said, Destiny being censored in any way not only goes against everything he talks about, but his open mindedness and unfiltered views are part of his appeal. People like to compare him to Howard Stern, which I feel is horribly inaccurate. Stern is a character, who says foul words for the sole purpose of profit. Steven just does what he does, and talks like he'd talk to anyone online; just in front of thousands.
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On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet.
The meaning of the word may not have been changed but the fact it can be changed we both agree. But your saying offensive words will always hold there meaning. What about words like dork or nerd that at one time held a stronger meaning of offense. Yet today can be used sometimes even as a compliment to the right person.
Yes the factors surrounding the word does make up the meaning of the word. Hence the definition of context http://www.thefreedictionary.com/context
You say 99 Percent of people take the word as is even if its used in a different context , yet up to 10, 000 people on here that watch destiny will not agree with you which already clearly stating that its not as much as you think. I am not saying you dont have a right to believe what you want to believe but just cause you feel its that way doesnt mean you have a majority with you. The same with bunch of kiddies. Well no every one who plays games uses this language or any profanity , there is slightly more than a bunch. Plus it is not esclusive to the gaming community. How about the sports communtiy Who use those words to pysch them up for a match or after they win. This happens. I Have seen it and sure i am not the only one.
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EPT
