|
It is highly recommended that your read this entire thread - at least until page 10. If you make uninformed opinions that have been answered by the thread, col management or Destiny, you will be banned. |
On June 27 2011 11:42 Holykitty wrote:
much better players than him also failed to survive the mlg open bracket, the vast majority of pros struggle to outright win many tourneys. so in terms of delivering results hes as good as the majority of his peers, but he brings alot of brand exposure and advertising which is something most people cant offer.
Destiny has like no results whatsoever. Not just in terms of winning tournaments, but also in actually beating pro-players in tournaments.
|
On June 27 2011 12:07 Awesomeness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 11:42 Holykitty wrote:
much better players than him also failed to survive the mlg open bracket, the vast majority of pros struggle to outright win many tourneys. so in terms of delivering results hes as good as the majority of his peers, but he brings alot of brand exposure and advertising which is something most people cant offer.
Destiny has like no results whatsoever. Not just in terms of winning tournaments, but also in actually beating pro-players in tournaments.
He is getting better though. I didnt get to see it but he took a game off naniwa on the eg clan war and agaisnt dde and some other good players. So he may not be top dog but he is not completely out of the running.
|
On June 23 2011 05:42 Kralic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 05:40 Coldplum wrote:
This is going to destroy complexity's shot at playing competitively Doubtful, just another hole to fill.
thats what she said
also i hope he gets on a new team when he is ready and doesn't have to quit playing or something. I really like watching his stream or even just leaving it on as i play other game to hear what he has to say.
|
On June 27 2011 12:01 badcnr wrote:
But your saying offensive words will always hold there meaning.
No, I'm not. Not once have I ever even suggested that. In fact, I've said the opposite many times.
On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
The point is not the word will not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language.
On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even.
Context is very different from non-verbal cues. Like, entirely different. This is a different thing.
Seriously, what the hell? I feel like you have got to just be screwing with me, now. Or maybe you are from the French parts of Canada. That would explain your reading comprehension and views on racism.
|
On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 25 2011 07:33 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
The fact that words are least important factor in getting a message across comes from science. Hence the phrase actions are stronger than words. You can probably find it on any site that talks about body language. You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. On June 25 2011 07:47 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
So how is it that The n-word lost its true meaning in the first place if the meaning cant be changed now. Words change meaning , new words are made. The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet.
Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
|
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:[quote] You are really, really misunderstanding the study that you think you are referencing. It's OK, though, a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about do the same thing. [quote] The point is not the word has not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language. How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation. Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does. Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world. I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet. Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
The black community says "nigga" not "nigger". Using the word "nigger" in the black community, is a very offensive term. It is a term used to indicate ignorant people, and we don't say it to other races we say it to other black folk when they are acting stupid/dumb. I for one have tried to remove "nigga" out of my vocabulary beacuse if I dont want someone calling me that then why would I do the same to someone else.
|
On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:
Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority.
While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that.
You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see.
Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently.
Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
|
On June 27 2011 14:17 WCBrownDFU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation.
Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does.
Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world.
I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet. Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist. The black community says "nigga" not "nigger". Using the word "nigger" in the black community, is a very offensive term. It is a term used to indicate ignorant people, and we don't say it to other races we say it to other black folk when they are acting stupid/dumb. I for one have tried to remove "nigga" out of my vocabulary beacuse if I dont want someone calling me that then why would I do the same to someone else.
So if I say "nigga", that's okay? You admit that?
|
On June 27 2011 14:29 Lysenko wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:
Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist.
A black speaker can make the argument that he or she uses the word to make an effort to take control of language which has historically been used against the black community by a white majority. While you may think that you're trying to eliminate the word's derogatory power by using it yourself, that you are a part of that white majority makes it impossible for you to do that. You are absolutely right that context matters. What you don't see is that when you use the word yourself, you are not in control of the context -- that it's coming out of your mouth is the only context that people see. Destiny, I respect your intelligence and I also understand your argument, but simply explaining to someone that they should not, in your opinion, be offended when you say that word won't make them react differently. Edit: I would normally question whether this is an appropriate topic for a thread about Destiny leaving his team, but since he himself asked the question, I figured it deserved an answer.
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
There's a reason why, when you take higher level English, you spend an incredibly amount of time learning ancient context in order to understand what speakers meant at the time. You don't take Shakespeare at face value, you spend time learning history so you can understand the message he was trying to convey.
|
On June 27 2011 15:20 Destiny wrote:
I'm sorry, but you're incredibly wrong. It is on the part of the audience to decipher what the speaker is saying. It always has been, and it always will be.
You're right that you don't owe the audience anything. As I'm sure you're aware, that doesn't shield you from negative consequences because of their interpretation.
You can speak without regard for how what you say will be heard, but if you want to communicate with people, you must take how they hear what you say into account. If you're speaking but people are getting something different from it than you mean, you're not communicating.
Whether that matters to you is really up to you and whether you can comfortably bear any negative consequences you might encounter as a result.
|
On June 27 2011 14:17 WCBrownDFU wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 26 2011 02:00 badcnr wrote:
[quote]
How is it that those studies are invalid? That doesnt make sense. In any communication you can use body language and tone and get a message across even if you dont use any words. You can use the nicest words possible and if your body language and tone dont match up with the words you can still be a jerk. So its perfectly valid in this situation.
Words have been changing every day. Every swear word in the last two decades has changed meaning and understanding depending on the context it is used. Granted not every one accepts this. But i several nieces and nephews ranging from elementry school to high school and if you heard the words they come up with the n-word and f-word are almost invalid in there vocabulary for vulgar or racism. So if you dont think it will ever change then i am sorry to say you are already to late cause things are changing. You take words from each decade in the last hundred years and see how much they have changed. Younger generations change the language of the world. Maybe not all at once but by slowly changing it, it does happen. If things didnt change in this world esports wouldnt be anything, wouldnt have any growth. So i am glad it does.
Really in the end it boils down to if you dont like the n-word or other swear words thats great all the power to you. If your agaisnt prejudice thats even better. Get out in your community and help out some minority groups. Would do better than debating or arguing that destiny is being racist. Cause if anything right now destiny is spreading awareness that racism is out there but he doesnt believe in racism. He isnt out to bring down any minority groups. So why not stop spreading hate in the forums and more love in the real world.
I personally dont use that much for vulgar content. Thats my personal choice. I dont get down on destiny cause he uses vulgar content. That is the way he feels best conveys his message and i completely understand that. I also believe in standing up for minorities that are hated for being that minority. I have never seen destiny ever do that. Even the n-word has come out on these forums more times than destiny has ever said it. OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote. I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote? The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even. Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary. Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet. Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist. The black community says "nigga" not "nigger". Using the word "nigger" in the black community, is a very offensive term. It is a term used to indicate ignorant people, and we don't say it to other races we say it to other black folk when they are acting stupid/dumb. I for one have tried to remove "nigga" out of my vocabulary beacuse if I dont want someone calling me that then why would I do the same to someone else.
I find it a bit entertaining that you speak on behalf of the black community "we don't say it to other races we..."
So whites can say it to other whites? Is that what you're getting at? You imply that the use of the word is fine because it is within the black community. Why disallow other races to use it within their vocabulary? (only to other people of their ethnicity if you want to play by your own words)
And then you say "we say it to other black folk when they are acting stupid/dumb." Then how come I have seen it used (in interviews, on TV, in person) as a name of endearment, similar to how people use "bro."
That just seems to reinforce the fact that you yourself don't even have a grasp of what the actual meaning of the word is, which I think is an extremely relevant point... and actually (let me not speak for him though) what Destiny is arguing.
If it at all matters, I don't use the word nigger or nigga in my vocabulary.
Either way, it is an interesting debate, though I don't know if it belongs here. It's definitely not completely irrelevant though.
|
Destiny is a free bird. A black sheep! That's why people find him so appealing. It's something different from pro-leagues or general streams. To have him "behave" according to sponsors and stuff would stop him from acting the way he acts (which is the main reason he has so many fans).
IMO, I don't think Steven is cut out to be a pro-gamer... but if the gaming community grows, I'm sure he'll gain a lot of fans that he can depend on.
|
On June 27 2011 15:18 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2011 14:17 WCBrownDFU wrote:On June 27 2011 14:06 Destiny wrote:On June 27 2011 10:48 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 09:44 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 08:32 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 06:10 badcnr wrote:On June 27 2011 05:37 bahl sofs tiil wrote:On June 27 2011 02:09 badcnr wrote:On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
[quote]
OK, I see now how you could misunderstand those studies, as you just misunderstood everything I wrote.
I didn't say that the studies are invalid. I said that you are misunderstanding their results and I didn't say that words don't change or that they can't change or that these words will never change. Jeez, man, do you even read what I wrote?
The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even.
Experiment! Grab a white guy, any white guy, and send him out onto the street to find some friendly black men. Have him challenge them to a game of StarCraft or Quake or any other video game and, in the course of playing, have him disparage their racial heritage with slurs and other words that you claim have changed meaning. Record the result and, depending on what neighborhood you performed this experiment in, notify the local mortuary.
Science! Well i guess i will have to go with i understand the studies how i do. They are still valid. Doesnt make what i say any less true. The word has changed in some ways. Maybe not for every one. But the point is words can change and if you dont use it in a way that people dont use it then it doesnt change. You wouldnt send some random white guy to a black neighborhood to start calling them that. That would be rude and disrespectful. Maybe amongst friends that would be appropriate. But to use it in a way that is not directed to blacks is not being racist, its not being disrespectful to them. Sure some will feel that way, that they were disrespected, some wont ,some may be in the middle. Ok, fine, I'll point it out to you. From the website of the guy who is credited with the idea:"Unless a communicator is talking about their feelings or attitudes, these equations are not applicable" The history of a word is not simply ignored because you use it glibly or smile while you say it and racial slurs don't cease to be slurs when there are no minorities around to hear them. And in this case that is exactly what that is. Using a word to convey his feeling. So again i will go with how i understand it. Maybe it is you who is the one not understanding. Dude, that is not what it says. Using a word to convey feeling is not talking about feelings. Talking about feelings is "I am happy" or "I am sad". "I'm feeling niggery" makes no got dang sense. Moreover, the meaning of the words do not change. Saying "I am happy" with your angry face on doesn't change the meaning of "happy" it just makes people think you are filthy liar. Your right in the case that it is racial slur if it is still directed at that group. Which in the case its currently being reviewes as its not. If i call a carrot the n word am i really bringing down the black community. No, if i use it that way often enough am i changing my view of how i see the word, yes. If more people do it the more the word is seen like that. If you call a carrot "blue" it doesn't suddenly change what blue is. Maybe you need to relisten to what that guy is talking about. Conveying your feeling is exactly what the guy was talking about. Feeling angry and upset can use more than i am happy. And just calling a carrot blue doesnt change it your right but calling a carrot blue a thousand times and get other people calling carrot "blue" and pretty soon people will change their perspective what the word blue means, If this was not the case then no words would be invented and no words would change. Yeah, no crap: "I am happy" was just a simple example. The fact of the matter is that non-verbal cues aren't going to suddenly change the meaning of words. That's not what anyone says ever. Except you, I guess. I think. It certainly sounds like it, anyway. Once again, yes, that is how languages develop. Thank you for stating that. Again. The fact is that in every English speaking society of which I am aware, the majority of people - by a wide-ass margin - still retain the offensive meaning for the word in question in 99 percent of contexts. Just because a bunch of kiddies and punk-asses in the "gaming community" use a word incessantly, doesn't mean its meaning just changes. The meaning has not changed in the way you are claiming it has and I don't think anyone would ever make that claim anywhere but on the internet. Don't make another post in this thread until you can explain to me why the black community uses the word "nigger" so often in rap without being considered racist. The black community says "nigga" not "nigger". Using the word "nigger" in the black community, is a very offensive term. It is a term used to indicate ignorant people, and we don't say it to other races we say it to other black folk when they are acting stupid/dumb. I for one have tried to remove "nigga" out of my vocabulary beacuse if I dont want someone calling me that then why would I do the same to someone else. So if I say "nigga", that's okay? You admit that?
You can obviously say what you would like, I cannot stop you from saying certain things. It is true that black people take more offense when someone who is not black says or calls them a "nigga". Like I said I am removing from my vocabulary because there are better ways of addressing my black/african-american peers
|
nigga means nigger and saying that they mean different things is like saying sup and yo mean different shit
|
On June 25 2011 19:22 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
The point is not the word will not or cannot change, it is that it has not. Not in the way you are suggesting, anyway. Pre-teens and suburbanites in the "gaming community" do not dictate the progression of the English language.
On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
The point is not that words cannot change. I know that they do. I never said they didn't. No one, ever, has said that words don't or cannot or will not change meaning. The point is that this word has not changed. A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language. In society at large, this word still retains its old, hateful, racist meaning in 90 percent of contexts. 99 percent, even.
_Dictate?_ You're implying that someone must _dictate_ language for it to change? Please tell me, if it is not us, then who dictates the "progression of the english language?"
Language changes all the time, and it doesn't take a dictator for it to change. Language changes as the users of the language start using it differently. Guess who these users of the language are.
It looks like you're trying to prevent or deny language from changing in a situation where it is obviously changing. If you say something like "The point is that this word has not changed", you're going to have to be a little more specific. At what point can we say that a word has changed? Where goes the line between changed and unchanged? And what gives you the authority to make statements about whether a word has or hasn't changed?
You do understand that words don't have a "set" meaning, right? They can have an infinite number of meanings dependent on the context, the user, the listener and all that. And just because 90% of people think that using the word nigger makes you racist if you're white doesn't make them "right". If you understand what the speaker says and still intentionally interpret it wrong, it's not the speaker's fault. Of course there are a lot of people too dumb to understand this, which is why the belief that Steven is racist and homophobic is more common than it should be. It's because of people with thought processes like: "I know Steven isn't racist, but because of the way sounds come out of his mouth, I will disregard all reliable information and intentionally interpret him wrong. This means Steven MUST be racist!"
|
On June 26 2011 20:36 KiWiKaKi wrote:
lol idra is 10 times worst than destiny manner wise , yet hes in eg and gives fingers to other players on stage
I am not talking mad shit on Destiny or anything, but IdrA is 100x the player Destiny is so I think actually being skilled in the game has something to do with why EG holds IdrA, the bad mannered D bag, so dear. Destiny, as someone pointed out earlier in the thread, has absolutely NOTHING to show for himself except ooo I get tons of viewers watching me ONLY for my bad manners. Who wants a showboat that doesn't sail?
Edit: On a side note, I think Destiny made the right decision. He is great entertainment, not meant for the professional scene. He is right where he belongs doing what he loves.
|
On June 27 2011 16:52 spicyredcurry wrote:
nigga means nigger and saying that they mean different things is like saying sup and yo mean different shit
I'm not saying that it doesn't but we have adapted it so it wasn't as hurtful to us as it was to our ancestors. Almost like accepting a hurtful joke in grade school and calling yourself that joke so that it loses it's power. Like I said before though I am not going to continue using it because it is just as derogatory with an a at the end. I can use other words to greet my friends instead of "wassup nigga" or something dumb like that.
|
On June 25 2011 06:56 zeek0us wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2011 05:39 badcnr wrote:On June 25 2011 05:07 zeek0us wrote:On June 25 2011 03:46 Shrewmy wrote:On June 25 2011 01:12 sleigh bells wrote:On June 24 2011 18:59 MaHi wrote:
It never stops amaze me how much are Americans butthurt over just a words. It must be so crazy to live in society where everyone is his/her own censor O_o
I mean arent you little bit too concerned about this whole "racist" thing? How come that you all in America ( as I observed ) dont even write stuff like nigger etc? For me its so much more racist to write or say something like N-word instead of nigga, cause when you use that in order not to insult someone, it means you are concerned about someones race = you make difference between races = you are the real racist... yah acknowledging that races and racism exist is totally racist, brah must be nice living in a 98% white country They're still just words. . . . is easy to say if you're a straight, white, male. It makes no sense for people who throw slurs at other people to decide that their impact is (or should be) minimal. That's like punching someone in face and saying, "aww, come on, it's just a fist, it's not a big deal". If you're not a racist, why would you talk like a racist? Sure, freedom of speech allows you to speak however you want, but how you speak reflects on who you are. And in point of fact, words aren't "just words". They convey meaning -- without that meaning they'd just be sounds. And the n-word, for example, is loaded with meaning, especially when snarky little white dudes are using it. It's easy to be a "free speech advocate" on the internet, but you know you wouldn't walk into a bar with a bunch of black guys hanging out and start throwing it around. Why? Because while it might be just a "sound" to you, it would convey a very different meaning to the people it actually affects. They'd be justified in wondering just why the fuck you decided those particular sounds had to cross your lips and assuming it's because you think they aren't worth the courtesy of avoiding that one word which has no place in a non-racist's vocabulary. People can use whatever language they want in America. But the right to free speech doesn't free you from responsibility for what you say. If you talk like an ignorant, insensitive, hateful little prick, don't be surprised when mature, responsible adults treat you like one. And claiming that you don't mean words the way they're taken is an exceedingly arrogant copout; who are you to determine what meaning is conveyed by certain words just because they're coming out of you're mouth? This is where people get confused. Destiny i doubt would go into a bar full of black people and start shouting the N-word not out of fear but respect for them. If he knew them and he knew they understood how he was using the word i think he would say it. He has said several times he is not out to make fun of race or sexuality but more to gereralize the word away from the group they have been associated with. Words are words. Yes they hold a meaning and in fact they hold several meanings. They are also the lowest factor in trying to get across a message. That is a proven fact. This is why no matter what word you want to use you can make it come across worse than N word. You can be racist with out even using racial slurs and there are several racial slurs that are used for several other things that dont get same amount of attention. I am very against people who are racist, or judge people on their sexuality. I also think its funny that more skinny white dudes are more the ones agaisnt the N-word than some of the black people on here. I have heard destiny talk to a black guy on stream who said he was agaisnt any one even black people using it and destiny stopped saying it in the conversation because he knew he was talking to an individual that was not happy about the word which was out of respect. That doesnt sound like a racist person to me. Maybe the word racist needs to be looked up so people can understand what it means before they shout it out judging people Yes, you can do worse things than use racist language. And I'm not sure where anyone has proven that words are the least important part of getting a message across, but whatever. Ignorance is the basis of bigotry. And part of that ignorance is lack of awareness about how certain words come off to the groups they're associated with. It's easy enough to avoid words that are commonly known to be offensive to groups of people. So then the question remains: why, exactly, do you need to use a particular slur if you know that it's offensive? Aren't there enough colorful, but non-racist words out there? If you're not ripping on a particular group, why are you using the word that exists as a way to rip on that ethnic group? So because a few black guys out there don't mind the n-word, it should be okay to say it? Their forbearance is enough to wipe out the majority of other people who do take offense? Just because I'm not black means I shouldn't object to people being assholes because they're not being assholes to me in particular? And is Destiny to be lauded because he stopped using a word only after someone specifically asked him to stop? Like he didn't realize it was offensive to begin with? "Generalize the word away from the group they have been associated with"?!?!? What the fuck does that mean? Racial slurs are associate with the race they're denigrating -- that's specifically why those words exist! What kind of quixotic madness is it attempt to dissociate a racial slur from the people it was invented to insult? My point is just that it's bullshit to try justifying the use of bigoted language. If you want to talk like that, fine. Maybe you really don't hate people who are different than you. Your insistence on talking like someone who does is puzzling to me, but whatever. Just don't then try to make it into something all noble and progressive. You're talking like an asshole and likely offending a lot of people. If you don't care about offending people, fine. But if you do, change the way you talk instead of trying to rationalize your own selfish stubbornness as some post-racial enlightenment.
I know that the word fuck is offensive and i will continue to use it often. but i wouldn't do so around my grandma. see?
if you don't like a word, don't use it. if you don't like hearing destiny use the word, turn off his fucking stream.
are you all a bunch of masochists that watch destiny's stream to simply be offended? are you a bunch of white knights that think the argument we've all heard countless times just needs to be said once more for a happy utopia to develop?
this whole thing has turned from being "are these things appropriate for a tournament caster to be saying?" to "destiny says these words so...(enter argument of your choice)"
seriously, get off destiny's balls. if this argument was a rocket to the moon you just hit fuckin jupiter.
TL;DR if you aren't destiny, stop trying to make decisions about what words he says are acceptable.
|
On June 27 2011 17:00 Houkka wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2011 15:53 bahl sofs tiil wrote:
A small group of people on the internet, or your nieces and nephews (what?) do not dictate the progression of the English language.
_Dictate?_ You're implying that someone must _dictate_ language for it to change? Please tell me, if it is not us, then who dictates the "progression of the english language?"
No, he was saying those people do not dictate it, there was nothing in his post to suggest someone else does in their place.
|
Good riddance. Hope he never gets back on a team. Destiny is a waste of a bracket slot in any tournament.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
