TeamLiquid has covered Dota 2 since the second International, and since then the game and our coverage has grown beyond what a single shared site can offer. With TI4 on the horizon, we’re happy to announce that we’ll be launching a stand alone Dota 2 website that will allow us to take our forums and coverage to new heights.
LiquidDota.com is a TeamLiquid network site that will cover Dota 2 exclusively. The site will feature a Dota 2 banner and theme, an improved calendar and stream list, and several other forum and community features tailored specifically to Dota 2. We’re proud of what we are able to offer with a new platform and are very excited to have you visit!
Liquid`Nazgul
Transitioning TL into multi-gaming has been a huge learning experience. We've come to realization that it is just impossible to make TL function like a traditional sports site. The amount of information that we want to display to our users is too great, and the majority of our users come here for a single game and rarely make use of our customization options.
We'd like to cater our site to the interests of our users. For example, the new calendar on LiquidDota is specifically designed to suit Dota 2's proscene, and it functions far better without having to cater to other games. It would not have been possible to implement this on TL with multiple games.
TL was founded on a shared passion for Brood War, and everyone sharing the same passion greatly helped in forming this community. Although we always want people to feel at home enough to discuss other subjects, it is still important to have that shared base. By having a site for each game, we'll be able to build unique communities with a shared passion.
The new site is big news for StarCraft as well. TeamLiquid.net will now be a dedicated StarCraft site like it was before. We've spent a lot of time and energy on developing the features that will now be debuting on the Dota site. Once we figure out the bugs (and get a little bit of rest) we'll begin the process of implementing those features on TL.
Users can set the matches to live/done so that we can deliver what's live fast and up to date
Once all matches of an event are set to done staff receives a warning message to check the event and possibly close it
Live report links
Liquipedia links
Tournament logos
7-day and monthly calendar in style of google calendar
The 7-day and monthly calendar will have filtering per team and tournament.
Right Sidebar
Live events will have more info and thus take up more space. Partially because of this we have moved live streams to be above upcoming events. The live info is what people find most important and it should be above the fold.
This piece is a work in progress, right now you can choose heroes and we will be adding in a system for customization with items.
Mobile Version
The whole design is responsive and will work on mobile.
Heyoka
My history with TeamLiquid is long and varied. I became involved first as a Brood War writer and then StarCraft II during a time of huge growth of all things esports related. I fell in love with Dota in 2011—much later than many—and we decided to bring Dota into the fold for The International 2. In the one and a half years since then, Dota has become my life. I've been continually blown away by the pure love for the game seemingly everyone in the scene displays, from pros to dedicated fans to my old college friends that play the occasional game when they have a day off. The word passion gets thrown around a lot but it is difficult to describe how intense the connection is between Dota and fan, this community is energetic in a way that reminds me of why I became involved in the Brood War community all those years ago.
In that time we've also realized a number of obstacles in helping people tap into that passion and their inner fire. As a site with multiple interests it has been difficult, our features are so detailed that it becomes an overwhelming blast of information very quickly. It is time for us to evolve, and LiquidDota is the way to let our community flourish in a new way.
I'm proud of what we built on TL and this is the next step in really bringing our Dota coverage and community to the a higher level. This is only the beginning, and as time goes on LiquidDota will only become stronger as we finish features to specifically let Dota fans express their love. I hope everyone is able to enjoy what we have done and where we're going.
riptide
As a writer, I was drawn to Team Liquid because it was home to the best Starcraft progaming coverage in the world. Many years later, as a TL staff member, I was delighted when we decided to cover the Dota 2 proscene as well. Today, just under two years into our Dota 2 run, we’re ready to take the next big step.
It is my hope and dream that someday soon, LiquidDota will be as synonymous with Dota 2 progaming as Team Liquid is with Starcraft. We know we’re not quite there yet, but we’re fully committed to making this the number one source for Dota 2 progaming news and we’d love to take you along for the ride!
I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
this is seriously terrible, can we at least get the community forums on the liquidota site so I don't have to go back and forth a million times while browsing?
On May 12 2014 06:31 BadAim wrote: Not to sound like a party pooper but I kinda liked it all in one place. Will there be links connecting the two sites?
Yes one should be at the top right eventually just like for the HS site.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
This has been discussed extremely thoroughly in the staff forums and the consensus was that the advantages by far outweigh the potential disadvantages. I initially felt as you do but I've changed my mind.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Agreed, I like to quickly navigate through TL, including sc2, general and dota. Now I have to swap sites, it's just very annoying.
^ What are these advantages ? Easier exposure to articles I guess ? Centralization of content ?
Meh, not sure how I like this, I mean I visit TL for dota/sc/the general sections and what I liked was having everything on the same website, having things split between two websites will be more annoying than anything imo.
Especially not having all the forums on the same left sidebar! :/
I mean, I dont even read the HS articles since they've been moved to LiquidHearth for example, because I'm not a diehard HS fan, but reading an article about it every now and then was still enjoyable, but now I dont bother opening the LiquidHearth page so i dont read any. I hope it wont lead to similar behaviors for people who read mostly SC/Dota stuff but still enjoy a bit of the other once in a while.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
This has been discussed extremely thoroughly in the staff forums and the consensus was that the advantages by far outweigh the potential disadvantages. I initially felt as you do but I've changed my mind.
What were the advantages of moving to a separate site, and what's wrong with the current setup?
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
This has been discussed extremely thoroughly in the staff forums and the consensus was that the advantages by far outweigh the potential disadvantages. I initially felt as you do but I've changed my mind.
How successful would you guys say it has been for the Hearthstone site? I really feel like if there's anything that will be the downfall of teamliquid, I think it's ones like these. You may be right, and I'll warm up to it eventually. But after this change, being someone who used to play/watch Starcraft 1&2 a lot, and switched to Dota, I am looking for a different Dota community to be a part of. Looking at the Hearthstone site, there feels to be no sense of community, and I would expect that it would be very similar for a new Dota 2 site.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
This has been discussed extremely thoroughly in the staff forums and the consensus was that the advantages by far outweigh the potential disadvantages. I initially felt as you do but I've changed my mind.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
This has been discussed extremely thoroughly in the staff forums and the consensus was that the advantages by far outweigh the potential disadvantages. I initially felt as you do but I've changed my mind.
What were the advantages of moving to a separate site, and what's wrong with the current setup?
I'll make a post with some of the main points, hang on.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Yeah but now all the community stuff is for Starcraft-only users?
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
What is wrong with filtering like it was done in the top right? Anyone who has spent a week or more on teamliquid will know about it.
Please please revert this change ): I didn't think it was good for Hearthstone, but I didn't say anything since Hearthstone didn't interest me that much. Dota is something I actually care about, and I really think it's a big mistake.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Well I can understand the change of the Liquid Twitter account since you can't filter tweets you don't wanna see, etc.
But it felt like everyone was pleased with how the current setups. Oh well, at least the new site posting looks pretty and has team discussion threads. Could be worse I guess, not too sure yet.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Could we keep a link to liquidDota in the top bar, at least ? ATM there isn't one.
This'll probably be the nail in the coffin for my interest in Sc2. I mostly come here for Dota nowadays but sometimes check out Sc2 stuff if it catches my eye. Don't really see me coming to Teamliquid.net much anymore !
Though maybe blogs and community and such will get me here often enough !
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Could we keep a link to liquidDota in the top bar, at least ? ATM there isn't one.
On May 12 2014 06:34 Torte de Lini wrote: They should keep all the forum tabs on the TeamLiquid site but when you click the topic; it redirects you to their sister sites.
Although i can think of a lot of advantages of creating a new site, I still feel a bit sad. For me, personally it wouldn't make a difference, as i don't follow dota2 at all, but i still don't want people to go to another site. Good luck though
You might want to fix the filter buttons though, as it still displays the 3 games, instead of 2.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Have you considered having the Community/Other Games/Blogs section being common to both websites? (as in they appear on the LiquidDota sidebar aswell) They are related neither to Dota or SC and it would maybe alleviate the "splitting community" issue.
Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Have you considered having the Community/Other Games/Blogs section being common to both websites? (as in they appear on the LiquidDota sidebar aswell) They are related neither to Dota or SC and it would maybe alleviate the "splitting community" issue.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Have you considered having the Community/Other Games/Blogs section being common to both websites? (as in they appear on the LiquidDota sidebar aswell) They are related neither to Dota or SC and it would maybe alleviate the "splitting community" issue.
Nice timing, I just posted the exact same thoughts. Please do this teamliquid staff. It'd be really great, this is what most people complaining (like me) want I think. This is our biggest issue and concern.
edit: although i just noticed there isnt a general section on liquiddota.com Also, i seem to be able to log on on both sites with the same account, which is nice
On May 12 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote: Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
Keep the blogs, keep the community, etc.
It's something we are considering but there's actually a lot of technical limitations
On May 12 2014 06:34 Torte de Lini wrote: They should keep all the forum tabs on the TeamLiquid site but when you click the topic; it redirects you to their sister sites.
I think this should be something to consider.
This was done for LiquidHearth for the first few days. Not sure about LiquidDota.
It's funny how Teamliquid is becoming more and more like the old school website gaming networks like GamingEye, TaoOfGaming and the .ORG network.
Have you guys thought of a collaborative/brand name for your network yet? Calling it "The Liquid Network" or "The TeamLiquid Network" sounds a bit cheesy and doesn't really explain what you guys are actually doing. Maybe name the brand as the TLCG (TeamLiquid Competitive Gaming) Network or something
Seems pretty damn pointless to be honest. Why fragment a community that obviously cares about more than a single game. Liquidhearth seems like a failure, don't see the need to repeat it.
little by little, the TL community is getting split up into little groups. dunno how hard it was for people to not click on threads for games that they dont follow.
just more inconvenience for people who like to follow multiple games
wow that's big news! Congrats! I love the colors you guys used, very nice and soft on the eyes!
edit: the whole fragmentation thing is also a concern of mine. Hope the solution mentioned some posts earlier get implemented so that you can be on TL and still check LD and such.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Based on the experience with Hearthstone and LiquidHearth: I'm afraid it will be the same with D2 - I will just slowly loose touch with D2. I don't like - I hate the fragmentation. At least there's no LiquidBW, yet.
There are only so much sites you're willing to visit and jumping around various Liquid subsites is too much - I will stick with main.
Could you make the LiquidHearth as the domain leading to the same place but with different layout and predefined preferences - just keep user's ability to see everything at one place.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
Yeah but now all the community stuff is for Starcraft-only users?
Exactly, you can filter the news with a single click. I don't see any advantage in fracturing the sites, It's inconvenient as hell. I love all of the dota coverage and all of the community features (blogs, off-topic, general, other games etc.,) and have to constantly bounce between two websites when it used to be conveniently packaged into one is a huge pain in the ass and part of the reason I stopped following hearthstone. Out of sight of of mind kinda deal and I hated bouncing between the two sites to read about it and eventually just stopped*.
(*not that TL split was the only reason I stopped following hearthstone but it certainly didn't help)
Nope, only the ones you posted in Dota 2 threads specifically. I'm down to 80 on that site since Dota is a new thing for me. Not to mention nothing in General, Media, Sports, Tech support, TL Community, Blogs, Other games and such doesn't count.
On May 12 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote: Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
Keep the blogs, keep the community, etc.
It's something we are considering but there's actually a lot of technical limitations
Without that implementation as someone who browses TL an unhealthy amount, these fractured sites are very undesirable.
Nope, only the ones you posted in Dota 2 threads specifically. I'm down to 80 on that site since Dota is a new thing for me. Not to mention nothing in General, Media, Sports, Tech support, TL Community, Blogs, Other games and such doesn't count.
I don't think teamliquid is large enough to really support two sites like this.
Before LiquidDota, teamliquid was averaging 3-6k users online at once... This number of users makes threads relatively active for discussion pertaining to many topics. If one of these sites is going to be down to 1-2k users, it's just going to feel more and more dead.
I would totally understand the choice if teamliquid had 15k online users at all times and there was just too much stuff happening, but it's not like the threads are that active. New threads don't pop up that frequently, etc.
On May 12 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote: Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
Keep the blogs, keep the community, etc.
It's something we are considering but there's actually a lot of technical limitations
...which could have been a nogo criteria for the new site.
I wonder if this is coming for LoL (and Smash Bros), considering the OP says that TL is becoming a "dedicated Starcraft site" and right now LoL is listed in the games/tournaments/strategy sections along with SC2 and BW.
on one hand I'll miss the sense of larger community of esports, on the other it makes sense to have a dota-specific site b/c most non-TLers associate TL with SC2 and nothing else.
Honestly, this makes much more sense than LiquidHearth. There is simply not much to say about Hearthstone.
I don't want to shit on the game, I play it quite a lot. This game deserves quality strategy article. But I can't see any "everyday topic" I would like to read about Hearthstone.
On May 12 2014 06:48 Proof. wrote: Will you guys be putting the link to LiquidDota on the top of TeamLiquid, like you have for hearthstone and poker?
Up now!
You guys also need to uniformize your top links. For example, LiquidHearth does not reference LiquidDota. Plus, you need distinct colors like the ones used at TeamLiquid.
New site looks good and all, and while i do understand the move - not having joint community-forums seems like a really bad idea.
I spend most of my time in the community forums as well as the dota forums. While its certainly not the end of the world, as someone used to jump from one thread to another this is highly inconvenient and will certainly promote further separation of the community.
Happy with the new site features. Absolutely displeased about no linked community forums.
This may have been covered but is there any thought about making the subscribed threads shared across the sites? Because at the moment it's very inconvenient to have to check both even as someone who doesn't follow SC2 any more there's still general gaming threads I follow.
Overall this seems like a poor solution to a design issue with the sites. It's by no means an easy thing to solve, but this seems like it would only reduce the amount of users, especially since in Dota we have so many sites dedicated solely to it. And while things like wanting to add functionality to the events area is an understandable problem, the LiquidDota events area is still not exactly at the level of other sites either. And to be honest I don't believe it will ever be on the level of the joinDota one because they have actual staff to take care of it.
On May 12 2014 06:33 BobMcJohnson wrote: Meh, not sure how I like this, I mean I visit TL for dota/sc/the general sections and what I liked was having everything on the same website, having things split between two websites will be more annoying than anything imo.
Especially not having all the forums on the same left sidebar! :/
I mean, I dont even read the HS articles since they've been moved to LiquidHearth for example, because I'm not a diehard HS fan, but reading an article about it every now and then was still enjoyable, but now I dont bother opening the LiquidHearth page so i dont read any. I hope it wont lead to similar behaviors for people who read mostly SC/Dota stuff but still enjoy a bit of the other once in a while.
I feel exactly the same. There is zero reason for me to visit teamliquid anymore since I barely care about SC2 and honestly minimal reason for me to visit the new site since the general forums and the "community" are basically splintered. I basically check TL 4-5 times sometimes even more a day to keep up on events. I hope this works out for them but, I've been a regular visitor since 2008 and this is just a huge turn off for me. Sad day for me.
Seems to be the way everyone wants to go nowadays. Segment everything rather than having things consolidated. We've gone backwards a step, woo.
I don't even care about Dota 2 or HS, but I see zero reason to split them off. I could just turn them both "off" entirely on the regular TL website, but still have Dota 2 or HS people contributing to general threads. Now it just means fewer people in the general areas, and no difference to my TL experience of browsing TL with no Dota 2/HS.
A better idea would have been, IMO, to make pre-configured settings where someone could click "Dota 2" and have a regular TL website which was preset to show only Dota 2 and general community stuff, with a Dota 2 theme/banner. If they then wanted to add back other games, they could do that by customising things in more depth.
Now you're just ripping apart a community that might be a somewhat decent size, but isn't large enough to be fragmented in many areas. Seems pointless, and doesn't really help users in any way.
And OH MY GOD what is wrong with people these days. Changing the way user information is displayed. What's the point? "Hey, this is the area we have to work in, less reduce the amount of stuff displayed because then we can have more empty space, and if you're a touch user, screw you".
Seriously, it's like the whole internet (it's not just TL) is going backwards.
On May 12 2014 06:53 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't think teamliquid is large enough to really support two sites like this.
Before LiquidDota, teamliquid was averaging 3-6k users online at once... This number of users makes threads relatively active for discussion pertaining to many topics. If one of these sites is going to be down to 1-2k users, it's just going to feel more and more dead.
I would totally understand the choice if teamliquid had 15k online users at all times and there was just too much stuff happening, but it's not like the threads are that active. New threads don't pop up that frequently, etc.
The advantage is growth. For almost every non-TL member if you mention "teamliquid" they think of "Starcraft site". So if you mention TL to a Hearthstone, Dota2, ... player he think of Starcraft and will likely look for something else.
If you fragment the site you will have those people thinking "Oh that awesome SC site now has a site specialized in X? That's awesome! I should visit it". This leads to more growth and growth is important. TL is a business which needs & wants to make money. More exposure is more money.
With a potential LiquidLoL, LiquidSmash, LiquidStrike (plz CSGO plz!) or other games in the future you would have way too much spam for one site. While existing users can filter it easily, you have to register to do that. Quality of life options behind forced registering are bad (since a lot of users don't register, thus have the bad quality and won't use the site enough to feel that registering is worth it).
Basically for existing users this change is bad. We're used to it. Change is always bad, since we lose the option to glance at other eSports we don't really follow . I basically ignore Dota2 for the last 6 months but here and there clicked on a Dota2 article. I won't do this in the future (except that my Dota2 interest is peaked again thanks to TI4).
So now I have to log onto another site to look at dota info? I applaud you guys for your growth.... but that's kind of a pain in the ass lol. First world problems.
What the fuck? Why are we segregating the community into 3 separate forums instead of having everything a nerd could possibly want in a single location. SC, BW, Dota2 + other things. I just don't understand the reasoning behind this.
*Side inquiry: Although I do enjoy LiquidHearth, it kind of didn't make sense for ALL the HS streams to be completely removed from the MAIN Teamliquid.net page. Would Dota2 Streams suffer the same consequence?
The system with filtering worked so perfectly. I really dislike this change.
I made a switch to dota 2 from starcraft, and I mainly follow dota now, but I still like to see what's happening with SC. Plus when I visit the dota 2 site I don't feel like I'm on team liquid. Where are the community forums? The blogs? This makes me visit two sites and it's just much worse.
Too bad we can't have a dedicated dota 2 site without removing it completely from the main one
Lets put it this way: there are lots of lots of sites specialised on one game only. But TL was one of the really few of the really convinient sites where you get the most relevant stuff of many sites. And you can filter everything you dont want. And on top of that you get the nicest general community in any gaming forum I ever saw.
On May 12 2014 06:53 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't think teamliquid is large enough to really support two sites like this.
Before LiquidDota, teamliquid was averaging 3-6k users online at once... This number of users makes threads relatively active for discussion pertaining to many topics. If one of these sites is going to be down to 1-2k users, it's just going to feel more and more dead.
I would totally understand the choice if teamliquid had 15k online users at all times and there was just too much stuff happening, but it's not like the threads are that active. New threads don't pop up that frequently, etc.
The advantage is growth. For almost every non-TL member if you mention "teamliquid" they think of "Starcraft site". So if you mention TL to a Hearthstone, Dota2, ... player he think of Starcraft and will likely look for something else.
If you fragment the site you will have those people thinking "Oh that awesome SC site now has a site specialized in X? That's awesome! I should visit it". This leads to more growth and growth is important. TL is a business which needs & wants to make money. More exposure is more money.
With a potential LiquidLoL, LiquidSmash, LiquidStrike (plz CSGO plz!) or other games in the future you would have way too much spam for one site. While existing users can filter it easily, you have to register to do that. Quality of life options behind forced registering are bad (since a lot of users don't register, thus have the bad quality and won't use the site enough to feel that registering is worth it).
Basically for existing users this change is bad. We're used to it. Change is always bad, since we lose the option to glance at other eSports we don't really follow . I basically ignore Dota2 for the last 6 months but here and there clicked on a Dota2 article. I won't do this in the future (except that my Dota2 interest is peaked again thanks to TI4).
The problem with filters is not that you have to register to do it. It's that majority of people don't use them.
I think this is a really really bad idea... Every community site I've seen that split has gone straight to shit. For example; in Australia, Nissansilvia.com used to be a huge car community... we got over a thousand cars at our annual cruises (which is huge for a city of 1ish million people) and a good interstate contingent. The site then split into car sub-groups and the result? Turned into a ghost town.
People, generally, like cross-exposure of different games... I don't want to go to one site for dota, one site for sc2, one site for whatever; don't mention reddit either it's full of aids.
Also in the OP:
The amount of information that we want to display to our users is too great, and the majority of our users come here for a single game and rarely make use of our customisation options.
But how do you measure that? And wouldn't underutilisation of customisation demonstrate that people prefer to see different game news at once?
On May 12 2014 07:07 Zocat wrote: If you fragment the site you will have those people thinking "Oh that awesome SC site now has a site specialized in X? That's awesome! I should visit it".
I don't think current internet trends support that at all. If I want information about something (like a game or tv show or whatever) I do not want to have to go to trawling through specialist sites; I go to some kind of aggregator. Teamliquid has been one of the most trusted aggregators for popular competitive games for some time now but there's no way I can be bothered opening MORE tabs just to read tidbits of dota news or look for dota threads.
I mean; the dota people miss out on all the other TL stuff and the starcraft fans miss out on all the dota stuff; only the diehard purists win.
On May 12 2014 07:24 WolfintheSheep wrote: Pretty dumb decision.
TL used to be a good Stream Aggregator. Now it's not. And that's basically the only thing I use this site for.
Yea you could always find quality streams in one place. Now I see only Merlini on the main TL site but.. Arteezy and bone7 on the Dota2 site.. why aren't they together and I don't like having to go to multiple pages to see which ones are online. And if they are all on the dota site I would again have to open more pages to find if any SC2 streams are worth watching etc.
New site is swag overload, can't stay on it for too long or the drool will soak my shirt. It looks damn nice. A bit skeptical about splitting up, time will show if it works out or not I guess!
Try to be a multi-gaming team, split all games up into different websites, nope nope nope nope.
Only reason I still watched SC2 streams was for all the hate the game got on the forum. Now that DotA2 has its own website, dunno if I'll keep visiting TL now. :/
Also a bit upset they wouldn't even ask the members of the site... Members, the people who make the community possible about what they thought of the change before implementing it. Just not cool
I kinda feel like I'm being thrown out. I mean I guess the right sidebar looks cool and all.
But... As long as all the non-esports forums are still here and the liquiddota forums are separate I will absolutely hate this change and I can't see how this can be good for anybody who previously visited teamliquid and who used more than only the esports specific forums. I guess if you only visited the Dota2 forums you'll love it. I know it's easy to say right after launch, but liquiddota looks incredibly empty. There are four(!) Dota forums and all the rest just stayed here.
I guess there are good reasons, though I don't see them explained anywhere (I'd love a more detailed explanation why this was necessary btw with all the pros and cons). At the moment I just feel disappointed.
While I don't care whatsoever about Dota, I still liked glancing at the occasional article about it, to stay informed and because some of them are well written. I'd imagine some Dota fans might feel the same about the SC content. This, along with the general community content being split makes me really question this change. A splintered community does no profit for either the Dota nor the SC2 folks
I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
It seems neat in concept, but ultimately I feel like I am less likely to visit liquiddota simply because I want to go to ONE location for esports information, Not have to jump to a family of different websites to get specialized information. I already don't visit liquidhearth and I still catch up on the hearthstone scene. To me, liquiddota is going to be much of the same.
Uh... yeah... I was usually just randomly browsing TL, sometimes for dota, sometimes for SC2, sometimes for the offtopic and general discussion... Whatever jumped my eye from the sidebar, and this happened frequently, TL was my gotowebsite, when bored. Also TL often had a lot of non SC2/dota information, about other games, and what else happens in the world...I even looked into Smashstuff, even though I would have never done that without TL... But with the split? Splitting the user base is pretty terrible, each site has less appeal, then the unified site had before, and actually I don't see why it was necessary, as there was no bad blood or anything similar between the 2 communities, that shared a large group of users....
On May 12 2014 07:31 FiWiFaKi wrote: Also a bit upset they wouldn't even ask the members of the site... Members, the people who make the community possible about what they thought of the change before implementing it. Just not cool
On May 12 2014 07:25 magicmUnky wrote: I think this is a really really bad idea... Every community site I've seen that split has gone straight to shit. For example; in Australia, Nissansilvia.com used to be a huge car community... we got over a thousand cars at our annual cruises (which is huge for a city of 1ish million people) and a good interstate contingent. The site then split into car sub-groups and the result? Turned into a ghost town.
People, generally, like cross-exposure of different games... I don't want to go to one site for dota, one site for sc2, one site for whatever; don't mention reddit either it's full of aids.
The amount of information that we want to display to our users is too great, and the majority of our users come here for a single game and rarely make use of our customisation options.
But how do you measure that? And wouldn't underutilisation of customisation demonstrate that people prefer to see different game news at once?
On May 12 2014 07:07 Zocat wrote: If you fragment the site you will have those people thinking "Oh that awesome SC site now has a site specialized in X? That's awesome! I should visit it".
I don't think current internet trends support that at all. If I want information about something (like a game or tv show or whatever) I do not want to have to go to trawling through specialist sites; I go to some kind of aggregator. Teamliquid has been one of the most trusted aggregators for popular competitive games for some time now but there's no way I can be bothered opening MORE tabs just to read tidbits of dota news or look for dota threads.
I mean; the dota people miss out on all the other TL stuff and the starcraft fans miss out on all the dota stuff; only the diehard purists win.
pretty much this. I thought the idea was cool at first but the more I thought about it, the more I think it's not going to work out. I mostly browsed TL for some SCII, BW, blogs, general and anime discussion thread. Also, recently got more interested in dota2 so I was starting to use it but it feels like its too much un-necessary work to visit both TL and LD now. Is it possible to still have some thread(maybe main articles?) in the dota2 section and everything else on LD? would at least have some of those who are here for starcraft but read some dota2 from time to time(and maybe something similar on LD for starcraft so a subforum for articles by staff).
Losing the community and blogs sections of the site really sucks. Is this going to increase ad revenue or something for you guys by forcing us to visit two sites to see what we were originally able to on one?
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Not a fan of this, I like to follow news for both dota and sc as well as look at all of the community forum sections, the site looks great(especially the team flairs) but separating the community like this just seems like a bad idea. TL is already less active than it was when it was a SC only site in 2011 with covering 3(was 4) different games. It's not like the forums are too busy so you need to split things up.
The only positive I can see is for SC-only fans who get some sort of satisfaction out of having their own site, as well as being able to moderate each community independently.
The biggest problem is that you're going to have dead community sections on TL-Dota compared to TL.net since people will stick with where they already have more posts and connections to other users. If blogs are also separate you will have to visit both sites to see blogs from people like heyoka who I imagine will do his on tldota. I could rant about this for 5 more paragraphs but I think you get the point.
So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
The separation thing feels awkward, and makes the whole idea of getting fans of SC2 interested into dota, or fans of dota getting interested in SC2 fall in its feet. I'm not a big fan of how TL has grown over the past years, but heh, what can you do.
Anyone know of alternative sites for stream aggregation?
Hey, you can still see all those LoL-streams on TL... Right now there are even more LoL-streams then SC2 streams... Surely the priorities are set amazingly well... needed some space for all those by kicking out the dota guys...
And somehow some selected streamers like EE or Merlini still show up here...
Anyone know of alternative sites for stream aggregation?
Hey, you can still see all those LoL-streams on TL... Right now there are even more LoL-streams then SC2 streams... Surely the priorities are set amazingly well... needed some space for all those by kicking out the dota guys...
And somehow some selected streamers like EE or Merlini still show up here...
Anyone know of alternative sites for stream aggregation?
Hey, you can still see all those LoL-streams on TL... Right now there are even more LoL-streams then SC2 streams... Surely the priorities are set amazingly well... needed some space for all those by kicking out the dota guys...
And somehow some selected streamers like EE or Merlini still show up here...
Surprisingly, not everything can be done perfectly at once. These things will be worked out if you give it a few days.
I liked the concentration too, I didn't like liquihearth and despite the fact that I play when I have the time (so not very much ) I hardly go on the website where (is that correct english ?) I was reading HS stuff before despite not having a beta key.
Moreover it really breaks the idea of a community which I think is the most important point. Couldn't it be possible to make the sub forum community visible and the same on all three (four with liquidpoker, does it still exist ?) sites.
Anyone know of alternative sites for stream aggregation?
Hey, you can still see all those LoL-streams on TL... Right now there are even more LoL-streams then SC2 streams... Surely the priorities are set amazingly well... needed some space for all those by kicking out the dota guys...
And somehow some selected streamers like EE or Merlini still show up here...
I'd be surprised if LoL didn't get its own site. There are even fewer LoL community sites than Dota ones, and there's less overlap with the SC2/BW community.
Absolutely terrible decision. It was nice having a one stop place where I could catch streams and still peek in and hear about how Life was beating up some small children. The unified calendar that I could control through my own settings was just so handy and a huge plus for the site.
And god knows TL sounds a lot better than TD. Suppose it speaks to the health of Blizzard's bastard successor.
Hmm Really prefered to have it on the mainsite.. It's just such a hassle to having to visit several sites.. Thinking about it some more this is really horrible, I hope you change your mind. I guess no more dota discussions for me...
On May 12 2014 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Absolutely terrible decision. It was nice having a one stop place where I could catch streams and still peek in and hear about how Life was beating up some small children. The unified calendar that I could control through my own settings was just so handy and a huge plus for the site.
And god knows TL sounds a lot better than TD. Suppose it speaks to the health of Blizzard's bastard successor.
As someone that only lurks to read articles, this is sucksballs. I only come to TL because of the articles and without really play any games (BW, sc2, dota, hs) I feel this split from the main website will only make me visit TL less.
On May 12 2014 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Absolutely terrible decision. It was nice having a one stop place where I could catch streams and still peek in and hear about how Life was beating up some small children. The unified calendar that I could control through my own settings was just so handy and a huge plus for the site.
And god knows TL sounds a lot better than TD. Suppose it speaks to the health of Blizzard's bastard successor.
Zealously, thanks for elaboration. It makes sense.
Only thing i want is shared community (general, entertainment, etc) and other games. I'd be very happy if that could be realised. R1CH, I beg you, use your magic once more, to overcome the technical hurdles zealously and nazgul were talking about!
I'm really not a fan of this at all :/ I echo others thoughts of really liking the fact that there was a centralized hub of content to read. I think it's a real shame to separate them like this.
On May 12 2014 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Absolutely terrible decision. It was nice having a one stop place where I could catch streams and still peek in and hear about how Life was beating up some small children. The unified calendar that I could control through my own settings was just so handy and a huge plus for the site.
And god knows TL sounds a lot better than TD. Suppose it speaks to the health of Blizzard's bastard successor.
On May 12 2014 08:21 Sabu113 wrote: Absolutely terrible decision. It was nice having a one stop place where I could catch streams and still peek in and hear about how Life was beating up some small children. The unified calendar that I could control through my own settings was just so handy and a huge plus for the site.
And god knows TL sounds a lot better than TD. Suppose it speaks to the health of Blizzard's bastard successor.
Well suppose I have reddit then.
But it isn't TD?
DETAILS
SC IS DEAD. TL Is DEAD.
Long live TD!
Now to go throw on my bright orange Liquid Dota Shirt and drink monster instead of redbull.
Why would they do this? There's barely enough new information to keep this site functioning as it is.. What do they put up like 2-3 stories on an average day? Not really a need for another site.. Use that money to expand your existing coverage and put it into the teams instead
I don't know if this is a good idea, hope it works out. I feel like liquidhearth is pretty dead compared to TL, though i guess the dota community is larger and much older.
On May 12 2014 08:44 Survivor61316 wrote: Why would they do this? There's barely enough new information to keep this site functioning as it is.. What do they put up like 2-3 stories on an average day? Not really a need for another site.. Use that money to expand your existing coverage and put it into the teams instead
I think that's why there is a new website. To make place for more Dota 2 content.
I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Not a fan, I like everything under the same website. I was kind of paying attention to hearthstone as it was getting more popular and once you made liquidhearth I completely disregarded it.
So do we repost all the "grassroots" community and other non dota or sc related threads? It's just like dota is some grotesque brother that's being kicked out to live in the shed, while all the extra nice stuff like mafia, other games discussion remains in the main TL house
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
I don't like this change. As a follower of both sc2 and dota , the change makes everything complicated. I think it's better having it under on roof. Teamliquid.net is like my homepage for esports news. It's like the yahoo of esports for me.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Why is there no option to have all the Community and other games on liquid dota, i am here since BW i bearly watch sc" anymore, but i am here for the community. If I click On a liquid team news thread on the sidebar it takes me to a new page aswell, i am okay with that, but the sidebar kept it all together.
please dont make me abandon main TL, i rather dump liquiddota and rely on reddit to to post the big articles
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
I really respect the work TL has done for ESPORTS, for Broodwar, for SC2, for DOTA2, and for Smash. But this move is really really wrong in my opinion.
I can understand creating a dedicated website for the progaming team. But splitting TL.net as a whole seems as a really bad move to me. I for example started watching Broodwar via TL.net, got hyped into SC2, but that slowly died down. But I got hyped into Dota2, alot, thanks to TL.net. And when I go to TL.net, I still end up watching lots of SC2. I open the site, check the live streams, and open everything that seems interesting. Most of the time that is Dota2, but often enought it's SC2, and sometimes its Smash Brothers Melee. You guys really chose your games well in my opinion, and having the site cover them all seems awesome to me.
Yes, the standard argument is that not everyone loves this and lots of people are only interested in SC2 for example. BUT YOU ALREADY HAVE THE SOLUTION! You already have the filters, allowing people only to get SC2 news and streams and stuff!
I guess you care about the people not having an account, thus not having filters. Ok, so what? You could still create two domains, one for DOTA, one for SC2, leading to the same website. Users without an account see the content depending on which domain they used to reach the site! It's an implicit filter. But registered user would still have the advantage of only having to visit ONE site!
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
I had typed much more in a few conversations with other people, but Evo pretty much saying everything I would've copied over. I can't argue with the facts(especially since I don't have any of the numbers) that this might be the better decision for making dollars, but I'll be damned if I can't argue that this isn't absolutely a worse decision for what I had always felt like TeamLiquid the site meant.
I guess there is just incongruency in what some of us thought and what the decision makers though.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
Well that's what they are trying to achieve with this change. Dota has absolutely massive player base and they want to tap into that. They don't care if this breaks the "family" feel for the relatively small existing user base.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yeah, I've always considered TL a great site for its community, not just the coverage of the professional scene. It is a shame that this happened, it is the first time I have really felt like the people running the show don't care about their existing user base.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
I liked reading the odd article on Dota 2 and hearthstone, I play both but don't care enough to seek out information on them, I fear this will have the same affect on me as liquid hearth, I will come here for SC2 news and just cut out dota 2 content all together.
Not a huge deal to me, but I agree with having it so that people can choose what they want to see.
On May 12 2014 09:04 Ojahh wrote: Why is there no option to have all the Community and other games on liquid dota, i am here since BW i bearly watch sc" anymore, but i am here for the community. If I click On a liquid team news thread on the sidebar it takes me to a new page aswell, i am okay with that, but the sidebar kept it all together.
please dont make me abandon main TL, i rather dump liquiddota and rely on reddit to to post the big articles
Basically this. I think it's sad to see Dota fade away from the livestreams and event section on the right. I really liked TL as a hub and site which combined several esports games. Therefore the addition of Dota and Smash were absolutely perfect for me.
The site launched today and there is only Envy left here on TL who is listed at the moment. I would really appreciate if TL would make an option like this for a unified calender and livestreams section, so that you can turn it on in your account settings or something like that.
There are filters to get rid of stuff dota and non-dota people alike don't like and the same people would get introduced to LiquidDota or Liquid, so why bother moving everything?
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
sad wagon as well, i used to check dota stuff as a side course; i guess it´s a test to see if i can carry my interest to the dota page now, probably not
On May 12 2014 09:27 The_Templar wrote: There are filters to get rid of stuff dota and non-dota people alike don't like and the same people would get introduced to LiquidDota or Liquid, so why bother moving everything?
Because of this:
On May 12 2014 08:05 Zealously wrote: So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
To be fair, that is a good write of Zealously, I appreciate the effort, the reasoning makes sense I suppose, and I do see the perspective of website affiliates more clearly now.
The big thing for me is like you mentioned, the certain forums aren't included on the site. Once those are included when the kinks in programming that are resolved, I think I'll be neutral about the change, and see what will come from it. The Calendar looks good, but I'm curious to see what other new features will come from it to be able to put it at that benchmark for Dota communities.
Only time will tell, I personally don't think the LiquidHearth website was necessarily a success or failure, Dota 2 is a little bit different, so it may play out differently.
I really wish it was possible to somehow have the sites so integrated and customizable that I could add components from each site into the sidebar and into the website. That would be really cool and completely revolutionize the esport community and make you completely stand out from the rest of the sites on the web. Teamliquid, the esport website network... Seriously, think about it!
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
Please find me that quote we have had (minimal) advertisements since the first day this site existed in 2002. This is seriously some borderline posting.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
I've been visiting this site for 7 years, so I understand man. To be fair though, this has been a starcraft site for a really long time before this, so you're still a part of the community, just if you like Dota, you go discuss it on a sister site. It's not that bad, but it's very easy to lose interest when you have to cycle through sites just so you have what you had before. What's going to likely happen to most is they will end up sticking to one website, and will drop the game they care about less... Which is shitty.
The way we had it now, this website can introduce you to some cool games and communities a lot easier than the way it is done now.
If you don't wanna clutter the front page with articles and news etc I guess that's fine(but not really since if people think it's too much of a mess they can just filter it out). Removing the streams that show who is online from the main page is just really stupid. You won't make people visit LiquidDota this way, people will just go to twitch and click the Dota game to see who is on now.
Really bad change. I don't browse HS and Dota2, but splitting the community is reallly dumb. I feel bad for people who browse both Dota and SC2. I hate switching between different website for my news. At least merge some section, like Community and Other Games.
LiquidDota is actually a really solid site. Like It's SOLID. Reverting is silly, what we need is to improve upon what people are complaining about, and that is the communication between TL and TLD. If the tech stuff gets figured out, the shared General community would be very good, and some ways to make the navigation between both sites easier. Like I should be able to set up links on my left bar in my option or something like that, that way it's less clunky and I can navigate easier. Stuff like that.
On May 12 2014 09:41 DwD wrote: If you don't wanna clutter the front page with articles and news etc I guess that's fine(but not really since if people think it's too much of a mess they can just filter it out). Removing the streams that show who is online from the main page is just really stupid. You won't make people visit LiquidDota this way, people will just go to twitch and click the Dota game to see who is on now.
On May 12 2014 09:52 SpiZe wrote: LiquidDota is actually a really solid site. Like It's SOLID. Reverting is silly, what we need is to improve upon what people are complaining about, and that is the communication between TL and TLD. If the tech stuff gets figured out, the shared General community would be very good, and some ways to make the navigation between both sites easier. Like I should be able to set up links on my left bar in my option or something like that, that way it's less clunky and I can navigate easier. Stuff like that.
Yeah, I think the best solution is to somehow link the community / other games / blogs sections on both sites.
So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
Hopefully that explains a few things.
I would like to address a few things.
Regards competitor sites. Yes there are many dedicated sites out there, and several are older than TL Dota's coverage. However, I feel like you guys approached this the wrong way, by trying to be like them. Imho, you can't, they have a larger staff with actual salary and all, and they have been here much longer. Trying to be like them is not gonna work. I thought we should have instead go a different route, and that to embrace what TL is about. An outlet of esports where you can easily have access to everything at once with just a few clicks, on top of that a sense of community, with blogs, general discussion, sports, where everyone, not just d2, sc and hs fan only can related.
I feel this is very much related to the issue of too much content. I see your point, but imo there's a bright side of it. What keeping them at LiquidDota when there are literally several carbon copies ( over-exaggerated ) of it out there. I could recall my story when I first joined TL. Came for BW, stayed because everything else. After reading quality BW article, the lively discussion at general caught my eyes, the sports section where I can follow many sports at once ( since I often follow Premiere League, F1, NBA, Champion League, Tennis and most of other things ), a hilarious blog section where I can related to. Those thing made me keep getting back, and finally bookmark TL as my homepage.
Yes time have changed, I totally understand the "family" is becoming lesser and lesser in your 2nd last paragraph. However, it does no good to accelerate and push the family apart even more. Evidently , in this thread, many have stated that they would not visit main TL page or TL Dota page page again, not because they don't like to, but because jumping to many portal proves too much. In the decade where time is more valuable than ever, having sth like TL home page is very gold, since we can get everything, so useful, so convenient. Like someone said, it's "The site to go to when I'm bored". I'm afraid I can't say that in the future if we continue where like we're doing now.
For the issue of separation, I think it's overblown, but that is entirely my opinion and I could easily be wrong, since you guys have the user data base and not me. However, a lot of people I know on TL are playing, visiting, or at least show interested to 2 or more games at once. Each time I come into a thread in a sub-forum I see half of the posters are also playing sth else. In today context, I believe hardcore gamers are very rare (hc is not exactly the words for this, since I'm pointing towards those who's only stick with only 1 game in a very very long time ). People got burned out for awhile, and look for other things. They found their new go to games, but still go back for the original quite often. I found myself jumping back and forth between dota, BW and POE. I mainly play POE now, but I still read dota and BW forum all the time, though I don't really post a lot. The same can be said for a lot of users here, and maybe non-register users as well, but I guess we're the minority now.
Overall I feel quite sadden by this, and I don't support this direction we're heading. However, it's not my site. And as Hotbid's post, if Dota section hasnt been a satisfaction, then need to try something difference from the status quo, perfectly logically from a business point of view. It's just not the same for me when everything is about growth.
Let me put it this way, if not for seeing dota2 streams on the sidebar I wouldn't have started watching dota2 recently.
The aggregated stream list is the BEST, MOST POPULAR feature on the site, its the only thing many people care about.
Even now, before this move, being listed or not on TL could make a big difference to some streamers. You are actually lowering the relivancey and service TL is providing to your users with this.
I am literally now going to just bookmark BTS because I don't want to have to check multiple sites for a stream list: Lists of things are inherently more useful when they provide their info concisely.
I resonate with what Evo said and just in the general consensus, the only feeling is a sense of being excluded from the community. In laymen's terms..... + Show Spoiler +
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
Please find me that quote we have had (minimal) advertisements since the first day this site existed in 2002. This is seriously some borderline posting.
Looking at featured news, the second oldest article I've been able to find you posting was:
And I remember around this time being that turning point with more sponsored threads, the sidebar advertisements etc. And initially took your message to heart, but then I noticed things happening like end of all those common BW events by teamliquid, liquibition, TLattack, etc. Everyone reacted really positively, I reacted pretty positively, but I do remember being a little bit upset because it was going against some things that teamliquid said it wouldn't become.
I don't have a link, and I'm struggling to begin of thinking of a way I could find it, however I was likely being over sensational with my statement and it likely wasn't a direct quote per say, so my sincerest apologies for that. What I am saying though is that back in 2009~ the site had 4000~ active users online on average, and it did run fully on volunteers and passion of the staff, writers, translators, etc. And then with the changes there were more advertisements, more shop items, TL+, sponsorships... And truthfully, the amount of content appeared to be relatively similar. The big changes were Liquipedia and the TL Pro Team, while I think some features were removed like all TL hosted events, power rank, and many stayed the same.
I did mean to misquote you, and I can edit it out if you wish. I was just trying to state that there has been a shift in the priorities of the website (however minor), to a more business model while back in the day there was extreme emphasis given on the dedication and passion of the users, then shifted to a model where some money is earned while still reassuring us that teamliquid is run purely on dedication and passion, and now we aren't really told that anymore. I suppose my post was more due to me being upset with the changes due to what I've seen teamliquid be before, rather than to be an attack on teamliquid, or rather Nazgul specifically, which is not what I intended it to be.
-If you post in the Game of Thrones thread, you mostly know the people who post there, you get to know their personalities. -If you post in the Formula 1 thread, you know who likes which racer, you get to know the posters. -If you post in a UFC thread, you know the people that will be posting, you know who likes UFC, you know who is fun to discuss with and who is not. -If you post in tech help, you know the trusty people like skyR who will come help you. -If you read blogs, you know what kind of blogs to expect from who. Ooh, Food Porn or let's look at a Glider video? -Tour de France? Where in hell can I go to in Canada to discuss Tour de France with people that aren't so crazy about cycling that they've given their bicycle a middle name?
I'm sure there are many threads like this that I don't visit. But the teamliquid community, I can discuss a majority of my passions on this site, while still enjoying Dota. Now if I go to the Dota site, I lose all that, and if Dota will get it's own duplicate threads for everything, I only have half as many people to discuss UFC, Formula 1, GoT, and whatever else I'm into.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
Please find me that quote we have had (minimal) advertisements since the first day this site existed in 2002. This is seriously some borderline posting.
Looking at featured news, the second oldest article I've been able to find you posting was:
And I remember around this time being that turning point with more sponsored threads, the sidebar advertisements etc. And initially took your message to heart, but then I noticed things happening like end of all those common BW events by teamliquid, liquibition, TLattack, etc. Everyone reacted really positively, I reacted pretty positively, but I do remember being a little bit upset because it was going against some things that teamliquid said it wouldn't become.
I don't have a link, and I'm struggling to begin of thinking of a way I could find it, however I was likely being over sensational with my statement and it likely wasn't a direct quote per say, so my sincerest apologies for that. What I am saying though is that back in 2009~ the site had 4000~ active users online on average, and it did run fully on volunteers and passion of the staff, writers, translators, etc. And then with the changes there were more advertisements, more shop items, TL+, sponsorships... And truthfully, the amount of content appeared to be relatively similar. The big changes were Liquipedia and the TL Pro Team, while I think some features were removed like all TL hosted events, power rank, and many stayed the same.
I did mean to misquote you, and I can edit it out if you wish. I was just trying to state that there has been a shift in the priorities of the website (however minor), to a more business model while back in the day there was extreme emphasis given on the dedication and passion of the users, then shifted to a model where some money is earned while still reassuring us that teamliquid is run purely on dedication and passion, and now we aren't really told that anymore. I suppose my post was more due to me being upset with the changes due to what I've seen teamliquid be before, rather than to be an attack on teamliquid, or rather Nazgul specifically, which is not what I intended it to be.
You may see the status quo of Dota 2 as acceptable, but the staff and a lot of users see a sub-par experience with very little possibility for anything but a slow slide and eventual death of the interest in the game on TL. The calendar wasn't compatible, the icons, the atmosphere wasn't welcoming, and there's a lot of things that improve with the new site. It makes the overall experience much better for a Dota 2 fan, and it returns TL to its roots, a StarCraft site.
You may see a split in community but the way Dota was going, this is something that had to happen. I understand you are upset and disagree with the decision we've made. However, calling what happened a "purely business decision" and saying stuff like "money corrupts" is just entirely inaccurate and unreasonable. LiquidDota has massive improvements and makes the experience far superior for a Dota 2 fan.
We can look into the shared community forums/threads, and hopefully that can remedy some of the issues you have with it. But in the long run this is something that needs to happen for Dota 2 on TL to survive and grow.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
Please find me that quote we have had (minimal) advertisements since the first day this site existed in 2002. This is seriously some borderline posting.
I guess wanting to make a living off doing something you love is being corrupt
btw I hope people stop feeling like they are getting booted off TL. TL is still the same community and everyone can still be here, lol
And Dota 2 wasn't shafted, it was moved the long run betterment of both communities.
edit: meh, refter to HB's post above mine he's more eloquent and cute and in depth.
Even if I wish TL the best, I'm pretty sure making a Dota2 website won't change much about the active users pool, but maybe even lowering it. I'm pretty sure lot of people just browse Dota when there is not much in the SC2 side, but if they have to go to another site to do so. meh.
On May 12 2014 08:55 r.Evo wrote: I think this change is sad as hell, it feels like being thrown out of a site that I'm visiting since a decade for its content and community.
If I want exclusive Dota 2 content I can visit /r/dota2 or one of the dozen other sites that are dedicated to it. But the reason I didn't do that over visiting the tl.net dota 2 subforum was because it was so much more than that and because it was part of one huge, awesome thing that's been around since ages.
Now, since it's about two different sites, I'm forced to open something other than teamliquid.net anyway if I want pure content. As for the community aspect... it's highly likely that there will be hundreds and thousands of people with zero connection to the people on teamliquid.net - which turns liquiddota.com into just another place for dota 2 content.
To me, personally, teamliquid used to be a homepage in the most literal sense there is. With this change a part of the family living in that home got kicked out to do their own thing and to build their own place.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Especially after Hot bid posted that the dota 2 forum wasn't performing well enough for you guys.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users.
That quote specifically makes me really damn sad. To me that makes this whole thing a pure business decision with everything that implies. Need more unique clicks.
Yep, not what Nazgul was saying teamliquid was saying they are all about 3 years ago. Remember when we were told 4 years ago or so that this website would never have advertisements?
Money corrupts, even the ones who seemed for a long time to be uncorruptible.
Please find me that quote we have had (minimal) advertisements since the first day this site existed in 2002. This is seriously some borderline posting.
Looking at featured news, the second oldest article I've been able to find you posting was:
And I remember around this time being that turning point with more sponsored threads, the sidebar advertisements etc. And initially took your message to heart, but then I noticed things happening like end of all those common BW events by teamliquid, liquibition, TLattack, etc. Everyone reacted really positively, I reacted pretty positively, but I do remember being a little bit upset because it was going against some things that teamliquid said it wouldn't become.
I don't have a link, and I'm struggling to begin of thinking of a way I could find it, however I was likely being over sensational with my statement and it likely wasn't a direct quote per say, so my sincerest apologies for that. What I am saying though is that back in 2009~ the site had 4000~ active users online on average, and it did run fully on volunteers and passion of the staff, writers, translators, etc. And then with the changes there were more advertisements, more shop items, TL+, sponsorships... And truthfully, the amount of content appeared to be relatively similar. The big changes were Liquipedia and the TL Pro Team, while I think some features were removed like all TL hosted events, power rank, and many stayed the same.
I did mean to misquote you, and I can edit it out if you wish. I was just trying to state that there has been a shift in the priorities of the website (however minor), to a more business model while back in the day there was extreme emphasis given on the dedication and passion of the users, then shifted to a model where some money is earned while still reassuring us that teamliquid is run purely on dedication and passion, and now we aren't really told that anymore. I suppose my post was more due to me being upset with the changes due to what I've seen teamliquid be before, rather than to be an attack on teamliquid, or rather Nazgul specifically, which is not what I intended it to be.
You may see the status quo of Dota 2 as acceptable, but the staff and a lot of users see a sub-par experience with very little possibility for anything but a slow slide and eventual death of the interest in the game on TL. The calendar wasn't compatible, the icons, the atmosphere wasn't welcoming, and there's a lot of things that improve with the new site. It makes the overall experience much better for a Dota 2 fan, and it returns TL to its roots, a StarCraft site.
You may see a split in community but the way Dota was going, this is something that had to happen. I understand you are upset and disagree with the decision we've made. However, calling what happened a "purely business decision" and saying stuff like "money corrupts" is just entirely inaccurate and unreasonable. LiquidDota has massive improvements and makes the experience far superior for a Dota 2 fan.
We can look into the shared community forums/threads, and hopefully that can remedy some of the issues you have with it. But in the long run this is something that needs to happen for Dota 2 on TL to survive and grow.
Please do. Liquiddota looks so empty compared to TL and looking at liquidhearth it won't change. The missing community section is the main reason it feels like being kicked off TL and if it would be there I probably would've voted more positively on that poll and so would others I think.
On May 12 2014 09:27 The_Templar wrote: There are filters to get rid of stuff dota and non-dota people alike don't like and the same people would get introduced to LiquidDota or Liquid, so why bother moving everything?
Because of this:
On May 12 2014 08:05 Zealously wrote: So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
To be fair, that is a good write of Zealously, I appreciate the effort, the reasoning makes sense I suppose, and I do see the perspective of website affiliates more clearly now.
The big thing for me is like you mentioned, the certain forums aren't included on the site. Once those are included when the kinks in programming that are resolved, I think I'll be neutral about the change, and see what will come from it. The Calendar looks good, but I'm curious to see what other new features will come from it to be able to put it at that benchmark for Dota communities.
Only time will tell, I personally don't think the LiquidHearth website was necessarily a success or failure, Dota 2 is a little bit different, so it may play out differently.
I really wish it was possible to somehow have the sites so integrated and customizable that I could add components from each site into the sidebar and into the website. That would be really cool and completely revolutionize the esport community and make you completely stand out from the rest of the sites on the web. Teamliquid, the esport website network... Seriously, think about it!
I can at least talk about one of the aspects to why this move was chosen. Disregarding any personal attachments or feelings that one might have and looking at how TL has functioned over the past few years, the frontpage and site layout in general has increasingly become a problematic area regarding the featuring, promoting and aggregating of scene-specific content.
The problem rests in that TL has been around forever, and that is incredibly unique and amazing because it has a robust SC community and also a larger growing esports (or just gaming) community as well. But what makes this amazing, also makes the exact content strategy of trying to balance the developed community and 3-4 (or 6) separate esports scenes an incredibly difficult task. Do you use content filters as TL did a few years back? Do you design your page functionally to silo by globalized tabs? Do you move your content off the main hub into affiliate areas? Do you sacrifice the forum sidebar because the room for all of the content that your community creates is suffering, or unable to further develop? What about restructuring how you handle events so that what you really want is where you want it? Whatever you land on (and all of the above are theoretical questions), there will always be a downside to part of the userbase, which both unfortunate and unavoidable. That's not to say that we don't give a shit because let me emphasize again the very long staff discussion Zealousy mentioned, but we also spent a lot of time trying to really build something that we all can be proud of, and would service dota really well.
So maybe that doesn't help where you feel about the change, but where do we go from here? If you have concerns I think it's great you are voicing them, and as a UX professional (god i hate that umbrella description) I do want to hear how you (or whomever) experience what we've tried really hard to build for them (or how things have changed for them) so that we can help to better the community as a whole.
On a personal note, I my personal relationship with TL is that it's a big family and I definitely don't want to lose that aspect as that's primarily why I've stayed here for the last number of years. I'd like to hope that the community forums + blogs could be shared, but this a big question that r1ch has to investigate, and is not at all simple to answer.
Disclaimer, i've only been around since sc2, and I mostly lurk, but i think this is a bad choice and need to say something.
I was a master sc2 player (3K+ games) and went to every anaheim MLG and have visited TL multiple times a day since 2010. But, If it were not for dota, I would not follow esports anymore (sc2 ded game lel). And i would never have found dota without TL.
Unfortunately for TL, the only things it has going for it in the dota realm is the team liquid team and its got community. It's not just not a main site for dota. Your schedule sucks and you dont have all the tourney streams all the time (reddit's is way better). You dont have the main dota forums (joindota & nadota) and you dont have the main newsite (reddit). Splitting off to a new site that appears barren and is attempting to replace these established sites does not seem like it'll fix this.
Yet I still come here just as much as ever despite not reading pretty much any sc2 content besides big features. All the general threads, regular bloggers, and other game/interest threads keep me coming back. Additionally I have been starting to pay attention to your smash content and forum.
Nevertheless, I don't believe i will continue to check the general TL if the dota content is moved to a different page. There just wont be the incentive to swing by, and i wont check all the familiar threads or read the top news articles or interesting looking feature for sc2 or smash. If there are more people than just me, i cannot imagine that you will retain the eyeballs or the sense of community that makes this place so neat. I hope for the best of TL, i just don't think this is it.
Hmm, hard to say how I feel about this. I almost exclusively care about Dota anowadays but like having bw heritage and occasionally seeing the something on the sidebar relating to non-Dota that still interests me is nice.
I love TL, but i dislike this decision. there aren't many e-sports news anyway, why spread it so thin? i already lost touch with hearthstone and now this.
On May 12 2014 10:21 TheEmulator wrote: btw I hope people stop feeling like they are getting booted off TL. TL is still the same community and everyone can still be here, lol
That's the thing though, me personally I won't visit multiple sites. I will choose one or the other or neither honestly. I know that sounds like over exaggeration and being a baby buts its just the way I'm used to it. I open TL, get my dota stuff, some SC stuff, maybe check out the other games section.
I started here for the StarCraft and then I ended here for the Dota. I stopped visiting this site much at all recently, but I think with Dota having its own site and hopefully more content being pushed out, I'll be visiting LiquidDota a lot.
I'm fine with this but.. it would be nice to have the community and other games forums accessible from liquiddota/liquidhearth/teamliquid etc. it's going to be annoying to have to use both sites to access what I once did from one site
On the one hand teamliquid.net was definitely inadequate for following Dota, like the calendar was sub-par to the point where I think most people would use one on a different site for following Dota. I can understand how the website isn't a welcoming experience to Dota fans given how shared of a space the site was.
But I think you did it wrong again.
LiquidDota.com should exist, but it should exist more like a custom skin for TeamLiquid.net. User accounts should be global across the whole TeamLiquid brand, including Hearth. Forums should exist through a single stream of database queries, just with a different frontend. A different skin. Different defaults.
On May 12 2014 11:07 Lachrymose wrote: I have mixed feelings about this.
On the one hand teamliquid.net was definitely inadequate for following Dota, like the calendar was sub-par to the point where I think most people would use one on a different site for following Dota. I can understand how the website isn't a welcoming experience to Dota fans given how shared of a space the site was.
But I think you did it wrong again.
LiquidDota.com should exist, but it should exist more like a custom skin for TeamLiquid.net. User accounts should be global across the whole TeamLiquid brand, including Hearth. Forums should exist through a single stream of database queries, just with a different frontend. A different skin. Different defaults.
This suggestion over on reddit pretty much made me go like "Yeah, why isn't it like that?"
What if you make it so that going to "Liquiddota.com" provides you an a priori filtered website for dota content, "Liquidsc.com" a priori filtered for Sc and so on, and "teamliquid.net" remains an unfiltered version?
So now I gotta visit one site for the dota and one for the non-gaming threads (because the general ones are evidently not shared)? Bah. The splitting of the communities is making me sad.
The community, other games and blog sections should be visible in any website. Quite a few of us came here for a game and stuck around for the community.
If you think making liquidhearth, liquiddota, liquidsmash, liquid.net, liquidlol and liquidwhatever else is the right choice, then go ahead, but there is no reason the split the community that goes beyond the games at this point.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
It's been 3 hours, chill, most people don't even know about the change.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
On May 12 2014 11:28 Zozo wrote: The community, other games and blog sections should be visible in any website. Quite a few of us came here for a game and stuck around for the community.
If you think making liquidhearth, liquiddota, liquidsmash, liquid.net, liquidlol and liquidwhatever else is the right choice, then go ahead, but there is no reason the split the community that goes beyond the games at this point.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
It's been 3 hours, chill, most people don't even know about the change.
We have been looking into this and so far there have been technical difficulties to doing it. However in the end nothing can stop R1CH so I'm confident we can pull it off.
On May 12 2014 06:33 BobMcJohnson wrote: Meh, not sure how I like this, I mean I visit TL for dota/sc/the general sections and what I liked was having everything on the same website, having things split between two websites will be more annoying than anything imo.
Especially not having all the forums on the same left sidebar! :/
I mean, I dont even read the HS articles since they've been moved to LiquidHearth for example, because I'm not a diehard HS fan, but reading an article about it every now and then was still enjoyable, but now I dont bother opening the LiquidHearth page so i dont read any. I hope it wont lead to similar behaviors for people who read mostly SC/Dota stuff but still enjoy a bit of the other once in a while.
This happened to me as well. I probably won't ever come to this site anymore. I guess SC2 ded gaem for me. I checked the general and kept up with stuff because it was in one central location and it was easy to do. I would watch some games if it was on. I just don't care enough to open up another site to do it...
What's stopping TeamLiquid of having a menu selection of SC:BW, SC2, DotA2, HeartStone, SSB, etc. and have the option of selecting which games you want to see while keeping the same community and blog threads together? That would be the most dynamic one too such as SC2 + DotA2 can create a different skin and DotA2 alone can have another different skin altogether.
Great news, personally I've completely transitioned to DotA and stopped following SC and I thought it was a bit silly that HS got their own forums instantly while DotA didn't.
My thoughts on the matter, while I understand why you would want standalone sites, I personally like all my content on one site, and really have no interest in visiting multiple sites. It annoyed me a while back when the hearthstone site was created and consequently the hearthstone section was moved off site and I fear that the same is basically going to happen with Dota 2 now as I play all three games TL covers. As I said, I really have no interest in visiting multiple sites and personally way preferred when I could see everything just on regular TL. Perhaps if there was some option under "Custom sidebar" to bring back the dota/hearthstone blocks, I would be happy.
Don't want to be a downer on the matter, I hope everything works out well TL, you're an amazing site.
It's funny that the happiest part about this for me is that TL.net is returning to its original roots of SC exclusively. But best of luck and fun to the Dota community :D
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
I am pretty bad at explaining things clearly, but here's my two cents anyway.
Everybody loves and respect TL stuff and TL community. But when admins openly explain to people: "Guys, we want to achieve even more results with our constant efforts, we want to bring more people into the TL awesomeness, we want to make our site even more useful for a Dota and SC2 ACTIVE followers, wouldn't it be nice? All support we need from you is just opening an extra window in your browser when you visit TL.net and you won't miss anything, believe us" and are getting "How you dare to make my life even more uncomfortable and complicated than it's already. You will break the most mature esports community apart, plz stop" in response.
Does it take one to belong to TL minority to see whose ideas sound more reasonable and less egoistic?
On May 12 2014 11:28 Zozo wrote: The community, other games and blog sections should be visible in any website. Quite a few of us came here for a game and stuck around for the community.
If you think making liquidhearth, liquiddota, liquidsmash, liquid.net, liquidlol and liquidwhatever else is the right choice, then go ahead, but there is no reason the split the community that goes beyond the games at this point.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
It's been 3 hours, chill, most people don't even know about the change.
We have been looking into this and so far there have been technical difficulties to doing it. However in the end nothing can stop R1CH so I'm confident we can pull it off.
Ya, this feels to me like the most important missing step. I imagine that people won't want to leave the TL community to go to the other site, and that a huge draw for many are the extra-gaming aspects of TL. Not being able to access all that other stuff would be the #1 reason I wouldn't want to go to LiquidDota.
Actually makes me wonder- how long has LiquidPoker been around, and has it been successful in establishing a its own niche community apart from the traditional TL?
Somehow I actually felt like posting for the first time here, pretty much just been lurking around since Brood War and made an account at one point but never really did anything with it still. But basically I really really like how the new site looks, and the new features look awesome, can't wait to see some of them start to get implemented over here.
As for the splitting of the sites, it seems like the main thing really is just the community forums that need to be worked out between all three sites and it wont be such a big split anymore. As for everything else, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out!
Really like the modern look of the thread posts at LiquidDota.
Simple changes to usernames (now in bold) and headers (now darker with lighter lines) are great. We could use that kind of update for the main site too.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
I don't get it honestly.
Everybody loves and respect TL stuff and TL community. But when admins openly explain to people: "Guys, we want to achieve even more results with our constant efforts, we want to bring more people into the TL awesomeness, we want to make a site more useful for a Dota and SC2 ACTIVE followers, wouldn't be it nice? All you need to do is just open one more window in your browser and you won't miss anything, believe us" and getting "How you dare to make my life even more uncomfortable and complicated than it's already. You will break the most mature esports community apart, plz stop" in response.
Because, frankly, their reasoning sucks.
Everyone who wanted a dedicated DotA site already had it. As the admins even admitted, everyone else provided sites that were solely DotA. The people that used TL for DotA were the ones that transitioned from SC, or the ones that cared about both.
In other words, they had a dedicated user-base that already had options, but stayed here because of things only TL was providing.
Or, more generally, TeamLiquid was the only website that provided aggregate Event listings and Stream links for multiple major eSports. But instead of cornering a market that they had a complete monopoly on, and improving the service, they instead decided to create one more DotA website in a sea of already established communities.
I watch both SC and Dota, but right now it doesn't seem too big of a deal to just open 2 tabs, tbh. In fact, I was using gosu/jd to check for Dota tournament times before this anyway.
The new dota site is actually really cool. At first I was like, ugh, not another LiquidHearth (I personally loved LiquidHearth). I just didnt like the idea that I had to frequent 3 different sites now. But I gotta admit, the new site is really awesome and super spiffy. Definitely worth it imo.
Nooo! I liked TL for having it all at one place for the purpose of eSports and not being closed into one game. HS I couldn't care for so I was happy when it got its own site but I'm gonna miss lurking the Dota threads when I'm bored ;;
I'm no developer or designer but wouldn't a complete face lift been sufficient enough not to split the sites up? Opening the front page up so it doesn't get so easily crowded.
@WolfintheSheep >Everyone who wanted a dedicated DotA site already had it Please, you can't compare gg/jd/nadota/playdota to TL Dota 2 section.
>The people that used TL for DotA were the ones that transitioned from SC, or the ones that cared about both. I don't believe in people who care and can't open an extra window in their browser tab at the same time.
On May 12 2014 12:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @WolfintheSheep >Everyone who wanted a dedicated DotA site already had it Please, you can't compare gg/jd/nadota/playdota to TL Dota 2 section.
>The people that used TL for DotA were the ones that transitioned from SC, or the ones that cared about both. I don't believe in people who care and can't open an extra window in their browser tab at the same time.
I believe his main point was the convenience of it which I can see.
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
I don't get it honestly.
Everybody loves and respect TL stuff and TL community. But when admins openly explain to people: "Guys, we want to achieve even more results with our constant efforts, we want to bring more people into the TL awesomeness, we want to make a site more useful for a Dota and SC2 ACTIVE followers, wouldn't be it nice? All you need to do is just open one more window in your browser and you won't miss anything, believe us" and getting "How you dare to make my life even more uncomfortable and complicated than it's already. You will break the most mature esports community apart, plz stop" in response.
Or, more generally, TeamLiquid was the only website that provided aggregate Event listings and Stream links for multiple major eSports. But instead of cornering a market that they had a complete monopoly on, and improving the service, they instead decided to create one more DotA website in a sea of already established communities.
This was the best part of TL by far, i could hit the main page and instantly know everything in esports, now i have to go through multiple websites just like before.
On May 12 2014 12:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @WolfintheSheep >Everyone who wanted a dedicated DotA site already had it Please, you can't compare gg/jd/nadota/playdota to TL Dota 2 section.
>The people that used TL for DotA were the ones that transitioned from SC, or the ones that cared about both. I don't believe in people who care and can't open an extra window in their browser tab at the same time.
I believe his main point was the convenience of it which I can see.
Trust me, this was a big discussion for the Reds and Blues.
While I can see the point you guys are making about convenience, LiquidHearth seems to be doing well and branching off DotA to its own website is best for everyone at this point. TL was starting to get cluttered because of how many games were covered and now TL will be mainly for StarCraft and Hearth for HS and DotA for DotA, the three big games Liquid is really covering.
Now it will be easier to know what on the "on air" bar is actually StarCraft for the StarCraft lovers and DotA for the DotA lovers. We already knew all the big name events but sometimes smaller events that were side bar featured you couldn't tell at a glance which game they were. For the Liquid brand, this really helps to clarify what is and isn't SC vs DotA.
This doesnt mean the DotA people are shunned or gone forever, it just means when they chat DotA its over on a new place. The fact you chat on two different forums isn't SO different from choosing a different sub forum and going between tabs on the two.
This also really cleans up the sidebar and the forums list on the main forum page :D
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
I don't get it honestly.
Everybody loves and respect TL stuff and TL community. But when admins openly explain to people: "Guys, we want to achieve even more results with our constant efforts, we want to bring more people into the TL awesomeness, we want to make a site more useful for a Dota and SC2 ACTIVE followers, wouldn't be it nice? All you need to do is just open one more window in your browser and you won't miss anything, believe us" and getting "How you dare to make my life even more uncomfortable and complicated than it's already. You will break the most mature esports community apart, plz stop" in response.
Or, more generally, TeamLiquid was the only website that provided aggregate Event listings and Stream links for multiple major eSports. But instead of cornering a market that they had a complete monopoly on, and improving the service, they instead decided to create one more DotA website in a sea of already established communities.
This was the best part of TL by far, i could hit the main page and instantly know everything in esports, now i have to go through multiple websites just like before.
This though is the sad part for those who put their feet in both the SC and DotA sides of the coin Q_Q
On May 12 2014 12:44 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @WolfintheSheep >Everyone who wanted a dedicated DotA site already had it Please, you can't compare gg/jd/nadota/playdota to TL Dota 2 section.
>The people that used TL for DotA were the ones that transitioned from SC, or the ones that cared about both. I don't believe in people who care and can't open an extra window in their browser tab at the same time.
I believe his main point was the convenience of it which I can see.
Trust me, this was a big discussion for the Reds and Blues.
While I can see the point you guys are making about convenience, LiquidHearth seems to be doing well and branching off DotA to its own website is best for everyone at this point. TL was starting to get cluttered because of how many games were covered and now TL will be mainly for StarCraft and Hearth for HS and DotA for DotA, the three big games Liquid is really covering.
Now it will be easier to know what on the "on air" bar is actually StarCraft for the StarCraft lovers and DotA for the DotA lovers. We already knew all the big name events but sometimes smaller events that were side bar featured you couldn't tell at a glance which game they were. For the Liquid brand, this really helps to clarify what is and isn't SC vs DotA.
This doesnt mean the DotA people are shunned or gone forever, it just means when they chat DotA its over on a new place. The fact you chat on two different forums isn't SO different from choosing a different sub forum and going between tabs on the two.
This also really cleans up the sidebar and the forums list on the main forum page :D
On May 12 2014 11:23 ForTehDarkseid wrote: @DwD: 100-150 users suddenly became a majoirty at TL?
If Community / Blogs / VideoStreams problems would get partly solved, you won't see anyone objecting at all, I bet.
Only those who prefers to visit just one site for all their TL needs. Now the dota fans need to go to one for the dota 2 content and the main one for the non-gaming content (or sc2/lol), as the community forum section isn't shared across sites (because it's that section which keeps most people active on the forums, right?).
I don't get it honestly.
Everybody loves and respect TL stuff and TL community. But when admins openly explain to people: "Guys, we want to achieve even more results with our constant efforts, we want to bring more people into the TL awesomeness, we want to make a site more useful for a Dota and SC2 ACTIVE followers, wouldn't be it nice? All you need to do is just open one more window in your browser and you won't miss anything, believe us" and getting "How you dare to make my life even more uncomfortable and complicated than it's already. You will break the most mature esports community apart, plz stop" in response.
Or, more generally, TeamLiquid was the only website that provided aggregate Event listings and Stream links for multiple major eSports. But instead of cornering a market that they had a complete monopoly on, and improving the service, they instead decided to create one more DotA website in a sea of already established communities.
This was the best part of TL by far, i could hit the main page and instantly know everything in esports, now i have to go through multiple websites just like before.
This though is the sad part for those who put their feet in both the SC and DotA sides of the coin Q_Q
But the things you are willing to do away with for this new system are the exact things that differentiated TL from the competition. I don't understand why you would trade the things that made you special for the upsides of being like everyone else...
I logged in just to say I hate this change. I like to use team liquid as my esports Hub for Dota AND SC2. I don't want to use two fucking separate sites. When you separated Hearth Stone into a different site I stopped using it entirely. Stop taking away the convenience of having one website for all the competitive games. Poor form boys.
I'm also against this change... TL was my esports website, be is sc2, dota2, or other. this is a huge inconvenience to the users and frankly will turn me away from visiting because you've taken away what was best about tl.
I don't really like this at all. I use a lot of sections on this website, one of them being Dota 2. I can't really see myself spending twice the amount of time to participate on two different websites now. And I enjoy the Dota 2 part more, so... I guess that means I'll probably rarely use the main TL site anymore, which is just dumb.
The bottom line seems to be a trade-off between an inconvenience for existing users in the hopes of increasing future user count. There are some added features on the new site that should in theory offset some of this inconvenience, but it seems from the polls and comments that they have not come close to outweighing the faults of this change.
If nothing else, this trade-off seems against the spirit of a community-first forum with which TeamLiquid had been centered about since its inception. Yes, the community may have changed and may no longer be a relatively tightly-knit singular "family" as it was in the BW days, but it had seemed that TL was not overly concerned with maximizing viewer counts and the more commercial aspects of maintaining an admittedly growing community as much as it was about producing community-driven HQ content and discussion as it has for the past decade or so.
I would argue, in fact, that the community has turned into smaller "families" or "communities" that do mingle and interact with each other to varying degrees, and that this move would be akin to segregating one of the larger families from the rest by much more substantial means than the other communities' choices of association. Meh.
On May 12 2014 06:29 FiWiFaKi wrote: I don't like this. I think it's a really poor decision that will lead to failure.
Fragmenting the community... and fragmenting the Community threads like General, Sports, News etc. If I like Dota but want to participate in that, I really have to go to two different sites? Strongly against this decision. Ah well, nothing I can do.
Pretty much this. It was nice being able to jump around and check it everything all in one website.
Sounds like a petty complaint but just turns me off I suppose.
As long as you're speaking for yourself it makes sense. There are a lot of people who don't follow both games.
I don't understand the strategy either. I'll continue to sift through the thread a bit but I just see it as a bad idea.
I enjoyed browsing the hearthstone thread through the main site, but must confess the standalone pales in comparison to something like HearthPwn.com, and I'm sure more people fill the same way.
I'm sure a lot of people got their initial hype of hearthstone from TL, now there just exists the fragmentation/unnecessary separation.
It is clearly going to be favorable the people deeply rooted in the TL community that are only interested in X game, but past that it is detrimental to the growth of the community.
The question begs now.... what is next, LiquidSmash? LiquidLoL? ...just doesn't seem good in the long run.
Hopefully the filter is updated so that the site can be kept as it initially was.
Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
best decision since founding TLPro. Now people can focus on sc2 again. There is already to much of this Dota Content. So everyone gets more space! Good idea!
I wish there was an option to keep dota related news on tl.net. might be greedy but if there was such an option.. could include hearthstone back in it as well? ^ ^
I don't like the change at all. I've been visiting TL on a daily basis for years. I stopped caring about SC2 over 2 years ago, but I still came back for the community (General forum, Sports etc.) and later started following Dota2. I highly dislike that those two are going to be separated in the future.
On May 12 2014 14:00 Navi wrote: The bottom line seems to be a trade-off between an inconvenience for existing users in the hopes of increasing future user count.
This is exactly correct. These changes suck for the TL regulars but may prove healthy for growth and ad revenue. The loyal TL fan base isn't going anywhere. There is a reason we choose TL over other sites (hint: it's not just the games you cover)so by splitting the sections they effectively get all of us long time loyal schmucks to be inconvenienced by clicking multiple sites and open multiple ads, while also increasing (hopefully) community growth and activity in each liquid-branch.
I'm not typing this out like it's some dubious plot with admins laughing manically in hidden rooms but for a long time TL browser, these changes without a doubt, just. plain. suck. It's not the end of the world and the sky isn't falling, there are no pitchforks to grab and nobody needs to be dramatic (yes I threatened suicide earlier) but it does truly suck.
Maybe in the end these sister sites will work out and each individual game community will flourish, maybe it will result in more revenue to produce better, higher quality content, who knows. What is done is done. I do have one thing to say though and that is that these changes genuinely seem counter-intuitive to what made TL 'my' site. It wasn't that TL covered broodwar that made me lurk for years and years, plenty of sites covered broodwar. It wasn't that TL transitioned to SC2 and championed 'esports' around the globe, it wasn't the team or the players, it wasn't the dota2 or hearthstone additions, it was the community. The 'team liquid' community, not the "brood war", the "SC2", or the "DOTA" community, but the teamliquid.net**community.
Well this sucks. I loved having 1 site I could go to for tournament info for both SC2 and Dota 2. If it's on 2 different sites, I'm literally just never going to go to the dota site. Guess I might as well just start using joindota more often. :\
On May 12 2014 14:00 Navi wrote: The bottom line seems to be a trade-off between an inconvenience for existing users in the hopes of increasing future user count.
This is exactly correct. These changes suck for the TL regulars but may prove healthy for growth and ad revenue. The loyal TL fan base isn't going anywhere. There is a reason we choose TL over other sites (hint: it's not just the games you cover)so by splitting the sections they effectively get all of us long time loyal schmucks to be inconvenienced by clicking multiple sites and open multiple ads, while also increasing (hopefully) community growth and activity in each liquid-branch.
I'm not typing this out like it's some dubious plot with admins laughing manically in hidden rooms but for a long time TL browser, these changes without a doubt, just. plain. suck. It's not the end of the world and the sky isn't falling, there are no pitchforks to grab and nobody needs to be dramatic (yes I threatened suicide earlier) but it does truly suck.
Maybe in the end these sister sites will work out and each individual game community will flourish, maybe it will result in more revenue to produce better, higher quality content, who knows. What is done is done. I do have one thing to say though and that is that these changes genuinely seem counter-intuitive to what made TL 'my' site. It wasn't that TL covered broodwar that made me lurk for years and years, plenty of sites covered broodwar. It wasn't that TL transitioned to SC2 and championed 'esports' around the globe, it wasn't the team or the players, it wasn't the dota2 or hearthstone additions, it was the community. The 'team liquid' community, not the "brood war", the "SC2", or the "DOTA" community, but the teamliquid.com community.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
On May 12 2014 14:00 Navi wrote: The bottom line seems to be a trade-off between an inconvenience for existing users in the hopes of increasing future user count.
This is exactly correct. These changes suck for the TL regulars but may prove healthy for growth and ad revenue. The loyal TL fan base isn't going anywhere. There is a reason we choose TL over other sites (hint: it's not just the games you cover)so by splitting the sections they effectively get all of us long time loyal schmucks to be inconvenienced by clicking multiple sites and open multiple ads, while also increasing (hopefully) community growth and activity in each liquid-branch.
I'm not typing this out like it's some dubious plot with admins laughing manically in hidden rooms but for a long time TL browser, these changes without a doubt, just. plain. suck. It's not the end of the world and the sky isn't falling, there are no pitchforks to grab and nobody needs to be dramatic (yes I threatened suicide earlier) but it does truly suck.
Maybe in the end these sister sites will work out and each individual game community will flourish, maybe it will result in more revenue to produce better, higher quality content, who knows. What is done is done. I do have one thing to say though and that is that these changes genuinely seem counter-intuitive to what made TL 'my' site. It wasn't that TL covered broodwar that made me lurk for years and years, plenty of sites covered broodwar. It wasn't that TL transitioned to SC2 and championed 'esports' around the globe, it wasn't the team or the players, it wasn't the dota2 or hearthstone additions, it was the community. The 'team liquid' community, not the "brood war", the "SC2", or the "DOTA" community, but the teamliquid.com community.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I wish we didn't have to distract mods by talking about ridiculous Riot conspiracies and could instead focus on more intelligent discussion of the split.
On May 12 2014 15:17 Whiplash wrote: Segregation sucks. New features are cool, but they could have been integrated into the main site. Not a fan.
On May 11 2014 08:20 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: We've spent a lot of time and energy on developing the features that will now be debuting on the Dota site. Once we figure out the bugs (and get a little bit of rest) we'll begin the process of implementing those features on TL.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I find myself a little surprised that you had to take such a condescending attitude towards a very valid point: What do you think when I see you guys suddenly moving Hearthstone/Dota to seperate pages, opening www.TeamLiquid.net and seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/ymaOFSP.jpg
Maybe you should try to put things into perspective before you act like a smug asshole to someone else online, Cheers!
For what its worth I appreciate you clarifying it, even through your rather negative and demeaning tone and diction.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I find myself a little surprised that you had to take such a condescending attitude towards a very valid point: What do you think when I see you guys suddenly moving Hearthstone/Dota to seperate pages, opening www.TeamLiquid.net and seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/ymaOFSP.jpg
Maybe you should try to put things into perspective before you act like a smug asshole to someone else online, Cheers!
For what its worth I appreciate you clarifying it, even through your rather negative and demeaning tone and diction.
Whoa whoa whoa. I'm pretty sure I delivered you as much smugness as you deserved, good sir! Had you voiced your concerns appropriately, I would have reply in a more genial tone. :3 But instead, you hastily jumped to the conclusion that Riot had somehow paid off TeamLiquid (not once on just reddit, not twice on just reddit and TL but three different times to perpetual some kind of scare) to shift Dota2 away from the main site and cleverly disguise it as misdirection! Good thing R1CH can be paid off like that and spend all that time coding to make LiquidDota looks so nice. I hope he was rewarded generously!
But in all honesty, if you had opened TL.net without your personal settings, you'd see that, hey League of Legends isn't taking up all that frontpage space on TeamLiquid's homepage. All that happened was Dota2 was moved out! But it was your own filters that removed SC2 and BW in the first place that suddenly made it appear League was everywhere.
P.S. If you had said "hey yo, League is a shit game, why is it taking up all this space on TL?!", I think I'd be ok with it, haha. That would be your opinion and more power to you. But instead, you had to make this redonkulous notion of how TL got paid off by Riot and that's why I took the time to be smug. You had zero evidence to the contrary (besides your own skewed (filtered) point of view) but you jumped to the most absurd conclusion possible.
i hope we will still have some dota events listed in the calendar with liquipedia puzzle. It was very convinient for me as mainly starcraft guy who likes to watch some dota from time to time
I don't like it at all, that's all I have to say. TL DotA content will get less clicks from me, similar to Hearthstone does. But that's not my decision.
Truthfully speaking, TL with this kinda became a lot less attractive for most people. I think LiquidDota will become bigger than TL.net, because Dota 2 is growing.
Boo! Now I need to visit two separate sites to get the same information as before. Definitely a bad change for me and the way I was using TL. I don't know what was so terrible about having both games on the same site. There was an easy filtering mechanism anyway for those not interested in Dota2.
I just feel that ever since tl moved it headquarters to nl they felt this extreme pressure to do "something" about it's declining traffic, as shown by their own quantcast profile, tl has lost a quarter of it's traffic during the last year.
I really don't think these curse-like sister sites are the answer, and this was the final nail in the coffin for tl for me personally- As someone who runs a business in the space of online marketing I just feel sad that this particular expertise so severely lacking inside the administration. You guys should take a look at curse and analyze their model a bit more if you are going to copy them. Start by hiring a new web designer and a conversion specialist and lock him with your new web designer in a room.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I find myself a little surprised that you had to take such a condescending attitude towards a very valid point: What do you think when I see you guys suddenly moving Hearthstone/Dota to seperate pages, opening www.TeamLiquid.net and seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/ymaOFSP.jpg
Maybe you should try to put things into perspective before you act like a smug asshole to someone else online, Cheers!
For what its worth I appreciate you clarifying it, even through your rather negative and demeaning tone and diction.
Whoa whoa whoa. I'm pretty sure I delivered you as much smugness as you deserved, good sir! Had you voiced your concerns appropriately, I would have reply in a more genial tone. :3 But instead, you hastily jumped to the conclusion that Riot had somehow paid off TeamLiquid (not once on just reddit, not twice on just reddit and TL but three different times to perpetual some kind of scare) to shift Dota2 away from the main site and cleverly disguise it as misdirection! Good thing R1CH can be paid off like that and spend all that time coding to make LiquidDota looks so nice. I hope he was rewarded generously!
But in all honesty, if you had opened TL.net without your personal settings, you'd see that, hey League of Legends isn't taking up all that frontpage space on TeamLiquid's homepage. All that happened was Dota2 was moved out! But it was your own filters that removed SC2 and BW in the first place that suddenly made it appear League was everywhere.
P.S. If you had said "hey yo, League is a shit game, why is it taking up all this space on TL?!", I think I'd be ok with it, haha. That would be your opinion and more power to you. But instead, you had to make this redonkulous notion of how TL got paid off by Riot and that's why I took the time to be smug. You had zero evidence to the contrary (besides your own skewed (filtered) point of view) but you jumped to the most absurd conclusion possible.
Pretty sure you could've maybe said "look at your filters, maybe that's why things are that way" instead of being a dick about it. I wasn't aware that real, genuine points should be answered with smugness and hostility, are you staff or something? Do you get paid to interact with the community like this? I'm not privy to how your filtering system works and how that would affect my front page view. Why assume that I'm out here to cause trouble and raise havoc and le reddit downvote brigade or something? You don't know me, you don't know my intentions and you don't know my dedication to this community. Maybe instead of attempting to paint me as the bad guy, you could've asked me about my filtering setting (forgot I had it on) explain where I was wrong, and move on.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I find myself a little surprised that you had to take such a condescending attitude towards a very valid point: What do you think when I see you guys suddenly moving Hearthstone/Dota to seperate pages, opening www.TeamLiquid.net and seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/ymaOFSP.jpg
Maybe you should try to put things into perspective before you act like a smug asshole to someone else online, Cheers!
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize that your filters have taken sc2 and Bw off of the sidebar. However, when the user who opens up teamliquid.net that isn't logged in doesn't see what you posted in your link, they see this:
Did not realize this, thanks for letting me know and not being so demeaning about it, appreciated (:
It probably makes sense to TL staff, but personally I dislike this change. The biggest inconvenience is that there is no longer a common calendar for all the games.
Not gonna lie, my biggest issue with a separate site and the main reason I'm probably not going to use it is the lack of Community / Other Games forums... I visit TL mostly for Dota 2 tournaments and "other stuff": One Piece, Heavy metal, other videos games, MTG, the dating thread, etc. All of those are part of my TL experience and are not available on LiquidDota. On the other hand, it seems like the calendar on the main site no longer works for Dota 2 which leaves me no real other choice than to use both? Not too too happy... Congrats on the design though, looks great!
On May 12 2014 08:05 Zealously wrote: So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
Hopefully that explains a few things.
Ok, I may be a little late to the party, but most of this argumentation is completely wrong. Yes, it is "how it is argued today", but it doesn't make it less wrong. Most of the points can be sumarised into "the average user is an idiot and we have to hold his hand", which seems to be the banner uniting any IT endeavour of these days - and sadly also the reason for the many pointless limitations in SC2 (such as the forced standart resource layouts and no "gimmicks" on maps, but also the stupidly dumbed down ladder system). If someone has the mental capacity to play SC2 or DOTA, that person can also scroll through the "overwhelming amount on content" on TL generated by having many games on one place. The front page articles change too quickly? Put more of them there! (Also, honestly, who even looks on the front page, when everything is neatly organised in the forums? I have seen the "front page" like twice ever, but I don't miss a single article.)
I come to TL.net everyday. Not just for SC2 or DotA, but the community. My main player-focus is dota2 atm, but I always clicked other news, and community threads, and blogs, and, and, and. This was why I came to TL.net, but from now on there will be no more DotA content on TL.net and there are no community threads on liquiddota. I see less value in this change.
And from what I see, there are more people that feel the same.
i really dont like the change! liquidhearth was already a bad idea!
teamliquid is the site that i visit for an overview of gaming streams. i guess i will have to take a look at 3 different team liquid homepages to take a look at 3 different games... that will most likely mean that i wont even check for sc2 anymore.
On May 12 2014 17:00 icystorage wrote: because having two tabs in your browser is really a daunting and inconvenient task
I know me well and can promise you that this is not how I function. I found TL some years ago and was happy about the whole package. During the last years that feeling was lost bit by bit. Admins closed Threads where community members posted Infos about something new that happend and open it on their own. This resulted in less community generated content. Then TL+ hit the site, which was a further step towards community seperation. And now, after Liquidhearth, comes the next communitysplit.
Ok, I have a brilliant idea. What if you guys would add something in the filter called "Dota 2 News". This is turned off by default, in order to not scare people, but if you turn it on it would put links to LiquidDota news articles in your Featured News and Community News tabs. Basically like this: + Show Spoiler +
I don't like this at all, but I guess I'm the minority and i follow more then one game then according to you. Well looks like im dropping the daily liquidbrowsing and using gosugamers instead, rather have all the information at one place then having to browse multiple sites..
Too bad, this does not make sense at all in my eyes, except for the potential multiple pageviews and more income.
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
You have to remember that for every person who has an account AND is logged in all the time AND uses the filters appropriately, there are five other people who don't have an account/isn't logged in/hasn't figured out how the filters work. What we've done here is admittedly less convenient for that one person who knows how to work TL perfectly because they've been here for years and years, but the average new visitor isn't going to want to bother to learn how TL works when they can just go to a dedicated Dota site elsewhere.
I think the liquiddota site looks and is laid out better personally, at least the right side bar portion. However I'm one of those people that came to TL as a hub. I come here, check the right side to see if anyone I want to see is streaming. I'll scroll down looking at the left side checking out whats happening in the general forums, then check the dota forums, maybe look around elsewhere, see if there are any interesting blog titles, etc. If nothing that interested me was going on then I'd go to twitch and look for some other game streams, but I'd always pop in here to check if anything was going down. Now that's all basically been split in 2. Is it the end of the world? No, but it does suck.
I'm an old man, I like what I like the way I like it. I keep my attention focused in one place, out of sight out of mind so switching between 2 tabs to do the work of what only took 1 until today basically means one site isn't going to be used really. I used to watch SC2, now its a fairly rare occurrence outside of 1 or 2 streamers or big tournaments with players I want to see. I mostly watch DotA streams so losing those SC2 streams on the right bar doesn't bother me so much as the general forums loss at liquiddota.
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
You have to remember that for every person who has an account AND is logged in all the time AND uses the filters appropriately, there are five other people who don't have an account/isn't logged in/hasn't figured out how the filters work. What we've done here is admittedly less convenient for that one person who knows how to work TL perfectly because they've been here for years and years, but the average new visitor isn't going to want to bother to learn how TL works when they can just go to a dedicated Dota site elsewhere.
So unregistered people visiting via LiquidDota could automatically have everything filtered out except Dota2. Visiting via TL.net filters everything except SC2. Where would be the problem with that?
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
You have to remember that for every person who has an account AND is logged in all the time AND uses the filters appropriately, there are five other people who don't have an account/isn't logged in/hasn't figured out how the filters work. What we've done here is admittedly less convenient for that one person who knows how to work TL perfectly because they've been here for years and years, but the average new visitor isn't going to want to bother to learn how TL works when they can just go to a dedicated Dota site elsewhere.
Sorry if ignorant aren't the filters just for the left side of the site. Like for example how crowded and crazy the events and calender used to be before the shift(with dota stuff). Could you have that only be SC2 too with just a filter before? (I guess I was just a noob xD)
Anway I like these changes, pure Starcraft nerd and thats all I come here for. I don't think it feels like a major improvement but it is nice just having SC2 in the events and calander.
Random idea. Would it be possible through some sort of wizardry to allow general forums (and other TL sections) to be crossed over to liquiddota but only as a filter setting? Like we can all change around what forums are shown and in what order on TL if you know how to (which apparently like 8 people do). What about allowing filtering on liquiddota where you could opt to pull in some of the TL forum sections? By default they wouldn't be there, but if you were logged into your account and knew how to filter you could have the option of having the TL general forum/blogs/sc2 tournament/etc sections show up on liquiddota so those of us that did use them could still participate while staying on our side of the proverbial fence thats been put up?
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
You have to remember that for every person who has an account AND is logged in all the time AND uses the filters appropriately, there are five other people who don't have an account/isn't logged in/hasn't figured out how the filters work. What we've done here is admittedly less convenient for that one person who knows how to work TL perfectly because they've been here for years and years, but the average new visitor isn't going to want to bother to learn how TL works when they can just go to a dedicated Dota site elsewhere.
So unregistered people visiting via LiquidDota could automatically have everything filtered out except Dota2. Visiting via TL.net filters everything except SC2. Where would be the problem with that?
This was one of the options we considered, and in the end we decided it was not enough.
Consider what other benefits we have now on LD that we wouldn't have if we simply implemented a filter-via-URL. Just a few off the top of my head: 1) A 'Dota' feel. Believe me, little things like having Dota hero icons instead of old BW icons play a big part in first impressions for new visitors. 2) Calendar - this really is a HUGE deal; the one we have on TL is adequate for SC2 but is simply not nearly functional enough for Dota. 3) Future things like TLPD that are yet to be implemented.
No offense, but the other site feels like a ghost town. It was great when it was a sub forum and I could check out or post in dota/other games/blogs etc. and it was all on the same page.
I must say as someone that originally joined TL for SC2 and transitioned to dota this makes a lot of sense. While I used to follow a lot of SC2, I just don't have the time to follow the scene any more - so it makes sense that the site reflects what I am visiting for. Bold move, but I like it.
On May 12 2014 18:05 OuchyDathurts wrote: Random idea. Would it be possible through some sort of wizardry to allow general forums (and other TL sections) to be crossed over to liquiddota but only as a filter setting? Like we can all change around what forums are shown and in what order on TL if you know how to (which apparently like 8 people do). What about allowing filtering on liquiddota where you could opt to pull in some of the TL forum sections? By default they wouldn't be there, but if you were logged into your account and knew how to filter you could have the option of having the TL general forum/blogs/sc2 tournament/etc sections show up on liquiddota so those of us that did use them could still participate while staying on our side of the proverbial fence thats been put up?
This is probably one of the bigger things we have debated over and over again in the staff forums. The benefits are obvious, but there are a couple complications/cons. 1) The technical side of it all is quite difficult. R1CH is a wizard but it doesn't make it a simple thing to do. 2) By starting from scratch, we allow a new community to build itself up. You could say it's easier to just let the old community carry over, but then you have a bunch of threads with thousands of posts that look daunting to new visitors.
This debate is still continuing even now. I can't tell you which side we're leaning more towards after all the feedback we've received in the last 12 hours, but there is definitely a possibility we may decide to implement shared forums at some point. No promises though.
On May 12 2014 18:06 Daozzt wrote: No offense, but the other site feels like a ghost town. It was great when it was a sub forum and I could check out or post in dota/other games/blogs etc. and it was all on the same page.
Well, it is the first day. Hell I didn't even see the other site was up for a long time. I came here today like I always do and tried to click on an article but the link didn't work, scrolled down to the dota 2 section and was like wtf, where did it go? Did I get somehow banned from the dota 2 section or some shit? lol. Eventually I found out the site had been sectioned off. As more people find it it'll get used more, but it's going to take a while I think before it takes off and feels super vibrant, and it's entirely possible people just don't go for the change at all.
I think my suggestion above would go a long way to making the site feel more alive, even if only for those of us that know how to use filtering.
Threads with lots of posts really are daunting to new users, and you don't want that? That would mean the longer a site exists, the less attractive it becomes to new users. So the best thing TL could do to attract new SC2 user would be to wipe the entire forum xD
On May 12 2014 18:05 OuchyDathurts wrote: Random idea. Would it be possible through some sort of wizardry to allow general forums (and other TL sections) to be crossed over to liquiddota but only as a filter setting? Like we can all change around what forums are shown and in what order on TL if you know how to (which apparently like 8 people do). What about allowing filtering on liquiddota where you could opt to pull in some of the TL forum sections? By default they wouldn't be there, but if you were logged into your account and knew how to filter you could have the option of having the TL general forum/blogs/sc2 tournament/etc sections show up on liquiddota so those of us that did use them could still participate while staying on our side of the proverbial fence thats been put up?
This is probably one of the bigger things we have debated over and over again in the staff forums. The benefits are obvious, but there are a couple complications/cons. 1) The technical side of it all is quite difficult. R1CH is a wizard but it doesn't make it a simple thing to do. 2) By starting from scratch, we allow a new community to build itself up. You could say it's easier to just let the old community carry over, but then you have a bunch of threads with thousands of posts that look daunting to new visitors.
This debate is still continuing even now. I can't tell you which side we're leaning more towards after all the feedback we've received in the last 12 hours, but there is definitely a possibility we may decide to implement shared forums at some point. No promises though.
1) I'm not saying it would be easy, I have no idea if it's even possible! It's just a random brainfart I had. From a technical standpoint maybe its simple as can be, maybe its like trying to figure out magnets. Though I'm sure R1CH can do about anything. 2) But if new visitors never see those threads what difference does it make? I'm proposing it only show up to people that specifically set it up to show up. People like me who check out the US Politics Megathread, Tech support stuff, the funny pictures thread, a picture says 1,000 words, etc. By default I agree, they shouldn't show up if they're actually that daunting to people. But having the option of sticking to one site (liquiddota if thats kind of being forced on us) while still participating in ongoing discussions here. Make me be logged in and setup the filter on liquiddota to incorporate the "Community" forum section here at the very least over there. Maybe I'm not explaining it great, I am tired lol.
Like, I agree it seems pretty retarded to rebrand if you're just going to have all the same stuff on both sites. At that point you're needlessly fracturing a community. I'd just like to be able to see the "General", "Media & Entertainment", "Sports", "Tech Support", and "TL Community" sections while on liquiddota, only when set up through completely optional filtering while logged in. That way I can see if there's movement on one of the threads I frequent or something interesting sounding in General pops up I want to check out without having to go between two sites.
Honestly i don't like this change this must be the only change that i hate about TL. One of the reasons why TL I visit TL alot is due to it being very convenient since the entire site has all the game discussion forum. Separating it will lose it's convenience.
And it will be the same as the liquidhearth site. The regulars will unlikely post anymore.
Maybe the trouble of inconvenience may be fixed if the UI is also changed that the users don't feel that liquid dota is separated.
Personally, I really don't like this - I loved having everything in one place, being able to check SC2, HS and Dota2 on the same site. That was just so damn convenient. I suppose this will go the same as HS for me - I visited once to check it out, then didn't bother to go there again.
But I guess it's a great and welcome improvement for all the hardcore Dota guys here. So, good for you guys, go and make your new home epic and comfy ^^
But since I'm just a lazy casual I probably won't stray much from TL.
On May 12 2014 17:29 Firkraag8 wrote: I only really care about StarCraft so for me it's a nice change that DotA is removed from the TL.net
what changes for you? Since you only care about starcraft, I assume you had the filters set this way, that you only see SC-content. so whats your point?
I have used all the filters and such since their inception, you're right that there's not a huge difference. If this lets TL specialize the websites more toward their respective games that's a good thing.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Well, i for one am a little bummed out. I liked having starcraft and dota in one convenient site. I know its not really a big deal to go to two sites. But I'm pretty sure my days of watching and keeping up with professional starcraft are going to take a big maybe even total decline because of this.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
On May 12 2014 18:05 OuchyDathurts wrote: Random idea. Would it be possible through some sort of wizardry to allow general forums (and other TL sections) to be crossed over to liquiddota but only as a filter setting? Like we can all change around what forums are shown and in what order on TL if you know how to (which apparently like 8 people do). What about allowing filtering on liquiddota where you could opt to pull in some of the TL forum sections? By default they wouldn't be there, but if you were logged into your account and knew how to filter you could have the option of having the TL general forum/blogs/sc2 tournament/etc sections show up on liquiddota so those of us that did use them could still participate while staying on our side of the proverbial fence thats been put up?
This is probably one of the bigger things we have debated over and over again in the staff forums. The benefits are obvious, but there are a couple complications/cons. 1) The technical side of it all is quite difficult. R1CH is a wizard but it doesn't make it a simple thing to do. 2) By starting from scratch, we allow a new community to build itself up. You could say it's easier to just let the old community carry over, but then you have a bunch of threads with thousands of posts that look daunting to new visitors.
This debate is still continuing even now. I can't tell you which side we're leaning more towards after all the feedback we've received in the last 12 hours, but there is definitely a possibility we may decide to implement shared forums at some point. No promises though.
The technical side is somewhat of an excuse. There are numerous solutions to the problem at hand including : changing the software or going open source. There are many devs on TL including yourself and we all know that it's not actually hard if you have the infrastructure in place ... which TL doesn't for some reason.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
In case you haven't noticed, the sidebars are simply hidden and open up fully when you click on them:
I'd rather this change hadn't happened as I really enjoyed being able to see the news/streams/forums for BW/SC2/DOTA2 all while looking at one part of a website, but meh, the change has happened lets see where it goes
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
This is why you use a Frontend framework like Boostrap with RESS and LESS for the graphics along with JangularJS for the code, It takes wayy less time to develop and deploy if you use existing frameworks instead of re-inventing the wheel
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
In case you haven't noticed, the sidebars are simply hidden and open up fully when you click on them:
And that is problem. Its like airplane cockpit turned into car "cockpit". I want everything to be open right away and not to press to get there
In that mobile version I have to press press and press to get to one place. In normal version one press is enough. Also you get nice overview.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
In case you haven't noticed, the sidebars are simply hidden and open up fully when you click on them:
And that is problem. Its like airplane cockpit turned into car "cockpit". I want everything to be open right away and not to press to get there
In that mobile version I have to press press and press to get to one place. In normal version one press is enough. Also you get nice overview.
I'd argue that in the normal version on a phone you'd have to zoom in first and press to get to one place.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
This is why you use a Frontend framework like Boostrap with RESS and LESS for the graphics along with JangularJS for the code, It takes wayy less time to develop and deploy if you use existing frameworks instead of re-inventing the wheel
While I'm not a programmer and R1CH will probably know a lot more about this or tell me I'm completely wrong, TL is a very very old site that has been upgraded over the years.
On May 12 2014 19:18 Paperplane wrote: I liked having everything on one site more.
On TL lots of ppl agree, see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/450263-introducing-liquiddota?page=3#44. Not sure if that's a good representation but that poll shows not everyone is happy, although that's quite normal. People usually don't like changes, but in this case I support them. I agree with your point of view, as I'm playing / have played all of those games.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
In case you haven't noticed, the sidebars are simply hidden and open up fully when you click on them:
Yes, but I can't have both while I do want both. Edit: I want to see both a topic with replies and then the sidebar on the side. I don't think that is possible right now on LiquidDota. However it is possible on TL.
And now that I have your attention is something like this possible:
On May 12 2014 17:26 Fildun wrote: Ok, I have a brilliant idea. What if you guys would add something in the filter called "Dota 2 News". This is turned off by default, in order to not scare people, but if you turn it on it would put links to LiquidDota news articles in your Featured News and Community News tabs. Basically like this: + Show Spoiler +
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
Never never if you can't disable it. In LiquidDota is missing button where you can disable it...and it looks horrible. I always use normal versions and not mobile versions.
This, so much. I really like the sidebars and they just disappear when you go on the mobile version.
In case you haven't noticed, the sidebars are simply hidden and open up fully when you click on them:
And that is problem. Its like airplane cockpit turned into car "cockpit". I want everything to be open right away and not to press to get there
In that mobile version I have to press press and press to get to one place. In normal version one press is enough. Also you get nice overview.
I'd argue that in the normal version on a phone you'd have to zoom in first and press to get to one place.
But like I said, if site have this mobile version, you have to be adle to disable it!. That's not case in LiquidDota.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
This is why you use a Frontend framework like Boostrap with RESS and LESS for the graphics along with JangularJS for the code, It takes wayy less time to develop and deploy if you use existing frameworks instead of re-inventing the wheel
While I'm not a programmer and R1CH will probably know a lot more about this or tell me I'm completely wrong, TL is a very very old site that has been upgraded over the years.
He would prolly have said that you are very much correct on this one.
On May 12 2014 19:18 Paperplane wrote: I liked having everything on one site more.
On TL lots of ppl agree, see http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/tl-community/450263-introducing-liquiddota?page=3#44. Not sure if that's a good representation but that poll shows not everyone is happy, although that's quite normal. People usually don't like changes, but in this case I support them. I agree with your point of view, as I'm playing / have played all of those games.
Yeah, LiquidHeart was quite fail but I dont think LiquidDota will be such a fail. But again for me it doesnt matter coz I only follow sc2 and community.
How I can sort "upcoming events" or/and "live event" by name/game? If I see: 6h 17m Go4SC2 Mon €75 then I never know if this is for sc2 or dota or whatever game. Livestream offers this option.
On May 12 2014 19:49 Dingodile wrote: How I can sort "upcoming events" or/and "live event" by name/game? If I see: 6h 17m Go4SC2 Mon €75 then I never know if this is for sc2 or dota or whatever game. Livestream offers this option.
On May 12 2014 14:22 iNteLStyLe wrote: Posted this in the other thread on LiquidDota.com:
So how much did you guys get paid by Riot to leave LoL alongside dying game SC2 by removing Dota/Hearthstone? Lets be honest, when people think of Team Liquid they think of www.teamliquid.net, and whats on the front page? LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament news on the left, and a bunch of news about SC2 players retiring.
Yeah I see where this is going, Well Played! TL
Really really dissapointed
I'm just going to copypaste what Neo said in the reddit post:
I think the Dota2 community should just appreciate what Liquid has done instead of looking for conspiracy theories, haha. I can say without a doubt that a TL LoL standalone site will not happen.
I play League and am more invested in League when it comes to an esport than anything else now, and this kind of posting is just really silly to me. You're reaching - I mean how does TL have anything to do with sc2 players retiring? I'm going to go look at the front page right now; and this is what I see:
Featured Articles: Dota 2 6.81 Patch, 20-20 With Dota 2 Alliance member, Top 10 games of Dota 2, Life winning Dreamhack(sc2)
Featured Video - Gomtv game - Starcraft 2
Spotlight - Sc2 map submissions, 20-20 with LoL player flame, NSA2 Recap(smash), Heroes of the Storm, Chobra interview
I think what you're trying to refer to is the sidebar, which is, more or less, a bunch of quicklinks into the forum. Even if you use a little common sense - wouldn't you think that TL would have done a LITTLE bit more than a small spotlight of two league threads if they were getting paid by Riot to make LoL an official part of Teamliquid? Come on. You can disagree and not like the change, but at least try to make some reasonable claims to why it's happening.
Just saying the amount of LoL content on a website aimed specifically at BW/SC2 (so much so that they moved Hearthstone/Dota to different, separate sites) is a bit confounding. So the plan is to seperate content that TL covers to provide better content for those original communities, and yet the main site page that everyone knows and goes to when first thinking of TL (teamliquid.net) has featured LoL streamers on the right, LoL tournament discussion, LoL General, LoL Champion Discussion... Really?
If you like LoL thats fine, I won't judge you but honestly why should there be even close to the amount of coverage that there is on a SC:BW/SC2 website?
Also, why are the professional LoL players streams labelled as "featured" streams? This site doesn't cover LoL in any official capacity.
I find myself a little surprised that I'm responding to such a post but I guess it's for clarity's sake so you don't continue to detract from all the hard work the TL Reds have put in.
The reason why you see so much League stuff on TL.net right now is because it's what's left over from the blocked forum layout that was implemented. Tournaments used to have SC2, Dota2, BW, and League, same with General and the other blocks. Now that Dota2 has moved to LP.net, the front page looks like League is taking up more room now (as 1 of 3 games on TL, when it was once 1 of 4 games with Dota2).
But wait, don't worry! In a few days, we will be returning to an older forum layout where League will take its rightful place in a small corner of TL.net under "Other Games". StarCraft2 and BW will return to its former glory on TeamLiquid, yay!
I hope that calms your nerves a little about the impending Riot takeover. Cheers.
I find myself a little surprised that you had to take such a condescending attitude towards a very valid point: What do you think when I see you guys suddenly moving Hearthstone/Dota to seperate pages, opening www.TeamLiquid.net and seeing this? http://i.imgur.com/ymaOFSP.jpg
Maybe you should try to put things into perspective before you act like a smug asshole to someone else online, Cheers!
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't realize that your filters have taken sc2 and Bw off of the sidebar. However, when the user who opens up teamliquid.net that isn't logged in doesn't see what you posted in your link, they see this:
TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
On May 12 2014 19:49 Dingodile wrote: How I can sort "upcoming events" or/and "live event" by name/game? If I see: 6h 17m Go4SC2 Mon €75 then I never know if this is for sc2 or dota or whatever game. Livestream offers this option.
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
How about not being a bitch about it?
How about providing more than meaningless ad hominem? Now there are four useless posts in the thread that have nothing to do with the topic discussed whatsoever, just so you could write some condescending bullshit.
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
How about not being a bitch about it?
How about providing more than meaningless ad hominem? Now there are four useless posts in the thread that have nothing to do with the topic discussed whatsoever, just so you could writing some condescending bullshit.
You sound like you could use a hug, so here you go: *hugs broodmann*
Basically there's no point bitching about this anymore, since the change will not be reverted. I personally greatly disappointed about LD, but can't really blame TL since growth is everything, and LD might be the best way to further expand dota section.
I don't like the new colour scheme on the LDota website. I think it should use the same colour scheme as TL or even a colour other than blue (I guess I always imagined being more red :S).
Initially I hated the change but I'm starting to come around, although my preference would be for something like this.
On May 12 2014 07:05 Lonyo wrote: A better idea would have been, IMO, to make pre-configured settings where someone could click "Dota 2" and have a regular TL website which was preset to show only Dota 2 and general community stuff, with a Dota 2 theme/banner. If they then wanted to add back other games, they could do that by customising things in more depth.
The argument I found most convincing for the change was the analogy with GG.net and HS but I also think you are over valuing "growth"... Even if the # of users hasn't increased, the quality has risen sharply (even since TI2).
My complaint is that I enjoy looking at games I don't usually play. I won't usually read SC2 or Smash's General Discussion threads but I will read a lot of their featured articles. I also think splitting the community makes it harder for TL to attract new members to the smash community but I suppose that will always be dominated by the smashboards.
btw I love the new banner and the work you've done on the new site (but especially the banner).
The right side bar is quite nice but I can't help but feel that joindota still does it a bit better. One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
How about not being a bitch about it?
How about providing more than meaningless ad hominem? Now there are four useless posts in the thread that have nothing to do with the topic discussed whatsoever, just so you could writing some condescending bullshit.
You sound like you could use a hug, so here you go: *hugs broodmann*
You're obviously just trolling, I'm not wasting any more time on the likes of you
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
Hm I personally don't like this, but it won't affect me much since I'm almost a pure Starcraft guy. But every once in a while when there was nothing new in the starcraft section, I'd go and look at some Dota or HS stuff. But I can't be bothered to visit LiquidHearth or LiquidDota, so this just means I'm less likely now to branch out to these games, since they are no longer on TL.
This also just seems to split up the community more, not sure what the advantages are, but I hope it goes well and both new sites get a cool community going.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
With real money? :O
Nope. A system will be implemented where you get gold from things like posting, updating calendar, liquipedia, etc. With that gold you can buy items to equip your hero icon.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
Fair enough. Although I think using heroes was a poor choice. You could make it similar to TL but with items instead of units and make it based on post count. I see those hero portraits and I think of the JD forums or Reddit.
On May 12 2014 20:03 broodmann wrote: TL is only useful for providing steam links and a schedule for both dota and Sc2, I can't be the only one annoyed by there being two separate schedules for them now. Furthermore the new schedule on the Dota2 site doesn't provide links to offline steams, something the old does fairly often, I don't want to have to manually find the thread to find the stream link if I want to watch Vods.
What a tough life you have, my friend. Hang in there!
Nice comment, I guess we should all say we support the change regardless of what we really think. I wouldn't want to inconvenience anyone by writing why I don't like the change in the thread that discusses this very topic......
How about not being a bitch about it?
How about providing more than meaningless ad hominem? Now there are four useless posts in the thread that have nothing to do with the topic discussed whatsoever, just so you could writing some condescending bullshit.
You sound like you could use a hug, so here you go: *hugs broodmann*
You're obviously just trolling, I'm not wasting any more time on the likes of you
You sound almost as mad as I am when I make the mistake of joining a pub game in DotA. I'm not trolling, I'm just trying to get you to cheer up. Oh well, I tried my best. Have a nice day, bro.
Right now it feels like my a ISP trying to upgrade my connection to a higher speed but giving me a monthly data limit. edit: noticed that website feedback doesnt really belong here.
As someone who has been here over 10 years, this sucks T.T. It was so handy having broodwar/dota/general etc all in one place, bleh.
As some others have said, it feels like im getting kicked out, i was here for broodwar, not sc2, and now i follow bw/dota and it feels like im being punished/kicked out for being a regular.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
Fair enough. Although I think using heroes was a poor choice. You could make it similar to TL but with items instead of units and make it based on post count. I see those hero portraits and I think of the JD forums or Reddit.
Items did actually cross our mind for a short while but it also wasn't feasible.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
Fair enough. Although I think using heroes was a poor choice. You could make it similar to TL but with items instead of units and make it based on post count. I see those hero portraits and I think of the JD forums or Reddit.
Items did actually cross our mind for a short while but it also wasn't feasible.
On May 12 2014 18:42 haduken wrote: Nice change, how ever why is it that TL.net don't display properly in mobile while the new site does?
The new site had a lot of extra work put into it by Wolfwood and R1CH into making it responsive, meaning that it resizes itself based on the resolution of your browser. I would expect it to eventually be ported over back to TL, but it might take some time.
This is why you use a Frontend framework like Boostrap with RESS and LESS for the graphics along with JangularJS for the code, It takes wayy less time to develop and deploy if you use existing frameworks instead of re-inventing the wheel
While I'm not a programmer and R1CH will probably know a lot more about this or tell me I'm completely wrong, TL is a very very old site that has been upgraded over the years.
He would prolly have said that you are very much correct on this one.
From what I understand of preprocessors and framework modules, the existing codebase makes both impossible to use i'm afraid. :/
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
A veteran of TL might see it as a nice bit of nostalgia, but to the average new visitor it simply is going to reaffirm the belief that 'TL is an SC2 site that also does Dota on the side'.
Besides, you'll soon be able to purchase items to customise your hero. No way you can do that with SC units.
Fair enough. Although I think using heroes was a poor choice. You could make it similar to TL but with items instead of units and make it based on post count. I see those hero portraits and I think of the JD forums or Reddit.
Items did actually cross our mind for a short while but it also wasn't feasible.
How about Jungle creeps by post count?
I don't think that'd be anywhere near as interesting unfortunately.
I hope this works out for TL Hoping we get the ability to easily access the community sections and blogs or something like it without having to hop back and forth between two sites because i quite liked browsing TL in general outside of dota stuff.
Would it be possible to implement an option to combine the "subscribed threads" section for all of TL? It's annoying to have to switch between 3 pages all the time just to check if a thread you're following has gotten a reply (6 pages if you count the subscribed thread page itself, unless you use tiles. Its a lot of clicks anyways ).
I tabbed out of all other content. Didnt wanna see depressing sc2 news of multiple disbands and retirements. But if i do wanna reconnect with sc2, I can always go to the main site anyway
For me personally as a user, I don't like this change at all. But I am sure I haven't factored in all the implications of this and I trust you have (to the largest extent possible). So I hope something good will come out of this.
Can one of the programmers explain why the post databases had to be split? In my view as a consumer, not privy to the inner working mechanisms of the site, the filter system was fine. It demonstrated that there was the capability to selectively hide or show content.
Why could liquiddota.com not use the same database as teamliquid.net, except that the filters are hard set to hide non-dota content. This alleviates the problem of new people discovering the site and not realising how the filters work. The new thread layouts on liquiddota are surely compatible with the database anyway?
I understand that the calendar and UI needed an upgrade to suit Dota more, but isn't that front end stuff? At the end of the day, all the posts are stored on a database as text. You can upgrade the UI or layout to display the text in different ways, but it's still raw text in the database. Unless I'm incredibly wrong about that, that's the reason why I don't understand the need to split the database.
As a casual yet dedicated enough viewer to be on TL almost daily (albeit not posting much) I don't like this change. It was nice to skim the events and then hop into a stream that was interesting and on, be it SC2 or DOTA2. Same goes for news. I liked the Heartstone Tournaments, but haven't visited TLHS once after the first day or so - and probably the same will happen with TLDOTA.
On May 12 2014 21:35 blackheartpress wrote: As a casual yet dedicated enough viewer to be on TL almost daily (albeit not posting much) I don't like this change. It was nice to skim the events and then hop into a stream that was interesting and on, be it SC2 or DOTA2. Same goes for news. I liked the Heartstone Tournaments, but haven't visited TLHS once after the first day or so - and probably the same will happen with TLDOTA.
I think this is true for many people. People are lazy.
One where there are articles or blogs, streams, upcoming/live events for all three covered games on one page.
I come here for SC2 and DOTA2. I never have the urge to visit liquidhearth but I do play Hearthstone, very casually, and I wouldn't mind seeing news, and streams about Hearthstone that'll direct me to the liquidhearth forums If I click a link for more information.
On May 12 2014 21:32 ahswtini wrote: Can one of the programmers explain why the post databases had to be split? In my view as a consumer, not privy to the inner working mechanisms of the site, the filter system was fine. It demonstrated that there was the capability to selectively hide or show content.
Why could liquiddota.com not use the same database as teamliquid.net, except that the filters are hard set to hide non-dota content. This alleviates the problem of new people discovering the site and not realising how the filters work. The new thread layouts on liquiddota are surely compatible with the database anyway?
I understand that the calendar and UI needed an upgrade to suit Dota more, but isn't that front end stuff? At the end of the day, all the posts are stored on a database as text. You can upgrade the UI or layout to display the text in different ways, but it's still raw text in the database. Unless I'm incredibly wrong about that, that's the reason why I don't understand the need to split the database.
The DB probably aren't split given that new topics in LiquidDotA have high primary keys.
On May 12 2014 20:26 tauon wrote: The right side bar is quite nice but I can't help but feel that joindota still does it a bit better. One other small thing, it would be nice if you kept the SC themed profile pictures from TL instead of the heroes. It's a nice little reminder.
what the hell how is joindota's calendar better than liquiddota's lol
On May 12 2014 21:32 ahswtini wrote: Can one of the programmers explain why the post databases had to be split? In my view as a consumer, not privy to the inner working mechanisms of the site, the filter system was fine. It demonstrated that there was the capability to selectively hide or show content.
Why could liquiddota.com not use the same database as teamliquid.net, except that the filters are hard set to hide non-dota content. This alleviates the problem of new people discovering the site and not realising how the filters work. The new thread layouts on liquiddota are surely compatible with the database anyway?
I understand that the calendar and UI needed an upgrade to suit Dota more, but isn't that front end stuff? At the end of the day, all the posts are stored on a database as text. You can upgrade the UI or layout to display the text in different ways, but it's still raw text in the database. Unless I'm incredibly wrong about that, that's the reason why I don't understand the need to split the database.
The DB probably aren't split given that new topics in LiquidDotA have high primary keys.
Once again I could be wrong but I believe the databases are indeed separate.
On May 12 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote: Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
Keep the blogs, keep the community, etc.
It's something we are considering but there's actually a lot of technical limitations
What are the technical limitations that you speak of? I'm assuming it is because you have a separate database for the new forum?
Not sure if this was mentioned, but here is a simple solution: Dump all the general community tables from the old TL forum database into a new database called "Community Forums". Write a simple REST API for that new database that can be accessed by both sites. It doesn't matter on which server you put that obviously. Voila!
Edit: the database dump is optional of course, the tables can also stay on the TL database
I don't like this split at all, i liked having all content on one site instead of 2. and i don't like the forum layout on the dotaforum either, it just doesn't look very good but thats just a personal opinion.
On May 12 2014 21:53 Milkis wrote: I like the liquiddota frontend a lot.
However, I can't say I'm fond of the forums being split. I guess that just feels really weird.
Exactly, and I don't understand why the new frontend couldn't pull post data from the existing database.
Is it not possible to use the same database across several domains?
Course it is. But if the databases are indeed physically split, then its a lot of work to combine them without bottlenecking it. Should be possible to set up a twophase system that lets you combine parts of each page though.
On May 12 2014 22:00 urboss wrote: Not sure if this was mentioned, but here is a simple solution: Dump all the general community tables from the old TL forum database into a new database called "Community Forums". Write a simple REST API for that new database that can be accessed by both sites. It doesn't matter on which server you put that obviously. Voila!
Edit: the database dump is optional of course, the tables can also stay on the TL database
Or that, which should be 10 times easier depending on how exactly they've set up their servers.
On May 12 2014 06:41 FiWiFaKi wrote: Maybe keep the same community section for every website? Because Dota fans will like UFC or Formula 1 as much as Starcraft fans. Lets not fragment that. Seems like something possible?
I think that's a good compromise that is the best of all worlds.
Keep the blogs, keep the community, etc.
It's something we are considering but there's actually a lot of technical limitations
What are the technical limitations that you speak of? I'm assuming it is because you have a separate database for the new forum?
Not sure if this was mentioned, but here is a simple solution: Dump all the general community tables from the old TL forum database into a new database called "Community Forums". Write a simple REST API for that new database that can be accessed by both sites. It doesn't matter on which server you put that obviously. Voila!
This is one of two solutions that I was thinking of, obviously put better than me because it has geekspeak :D
I personally really hate this concept of sister sites. Once upon a time I had access to everything I needed on TL.net. I had Starcraft Broodwar, Starcraft II (for what little I watched - Dreamhack, MLG, GomTV Season finals), a little bit of hearthstone for fun on the side, and an ever-growing list of streams of Dota 2 tournaments. Now I'm being FORCED to juggle 3 sites just to CHECK if I'm interested in any of the streams going on, tournaments being played, participate in discussions and overall news. It's real fucking shitty. I didn't mind separating Hearthstone because it will always be a niche game without any e-sports value the way it was designed to be just a fun pastime, but now moving Dota 2? Really? You which provided me with everything-in-1-site, Teamliquid.net are going to forcefully inconvenience me to navigate to some wierd and certainly not iconic sister-offshoot just to get news on another game, you have previously made excellent articles written upon, and even have your own e-sports team? Thanks a bunch, really. I think I'm more likely to go back to joindota for news rather than visit that site for any sort of news and discussion.
On a sidenote, why not make a LiquidGeneral.net, LiquidMedia&Entertainement.net and LiquidBlogs.net?
On May 12 2014 18:05 OuchyDathurts wrote: Random idea. Would it be possible through some sort of wizardry to allow general forums (and other TL sections) to be crossed over to liquiddota but only as a filter setting? Like we can all change around what forums are shown and in what order on TL if you know how to (which apparently like 8 people do). What about allowing filtering on liquiddota where you could opt to pull in some of the TL forum sections? By default they wouldn't be there, but if you were logged into your account and knew how to filter you could have the option of having the TL general forum/blogs/sc2 tournament/etc sections show up on liquiddota so those of us that did use them could still participate while staying on our side of the proverbial fence thats been put up?
This is probably one of the bigger things we have debated over and over again in the staff forums. The benefits are obvious, but there are a couple complications/cons. 1) The technical side of it all is quite difficult. R1CH is a wizard but it doesn't make it a simple thing to do. 2) By starting from scratch, we allow a new community to build itself up. You could say it's easier to just let the old community carry over, but then you have a bunch of threads with thousands of posts that look daunting to new visitors.
This debate is still continuing even now. I can't tell you which side we're leaning more towards after all the feedback we've received in the last 12 hours, but there is definitely a possibility we may decide to implement shared forums at some point. No promises though.
After sleeping over it, here's a list of things that are, in my opinion, completely unacceptable for a site of this size and with a userbase this large. Keep in mind that I consider myself a complete amateur when it comes to a basic corporate id and that I'm applying concepts I learned in print and from other "real life" organisations. It's highly likely that someone more experienced can point out even more of these things.
Alright, I get it - tl.net is a franchise now. Great. Make it look like one. Try clicking on the top right between TLPro / Liquipedia / LDota / LHearth / LPoker and all the various sites look like (weak) copycats of each other. If I, for example, come from tl.net, click LDota my mouse is now over LHearth. Hell, you even change the order in which the links are arranged. Finally when clicking tlpro the entire sidebar swaps to the left side. And when you click lpoker it looks like a site with zero relation at all.
----> Fix tlpro navbar to the top right. Figure out an order for the sites and keep em like this across all sites of the franchise. Don't make the link of the site you're currently at disappear, otherwise your navigation becomes confusing.
Exercise time. Open up tl.net and now open up LHearth next to it. Swap between the two repeatedly. This is at the moment the best of all the tl sites when it comes to looking familiar between each other. LDota is worse, TLpro does something entirely different and Liquipedia tries to be cute instead of streamlined and functional. Fonts change, UI elements change (clock/no clock, facebook icon gone, search bar size difference, "Events" vs "Live Events", the logo position changes, the position of the font attached to the logo changes, TL+ disappears, etc.). All of that needs to be streamlined. Subscribed threads should carry across all the sites. In theory the beautiful "customize sidebar" buttons on the right and left side should be able to pull across all major sites. (As mentioned somewhere else the smartest solution would have been to let LHearth and LDota link to completely prefiltered sites of TL via sidebar customization for an unregistered user but I guess making a new site instead gives more room to play around.)
Liquipedia. If I click the top right button it leads me to another site that lets me choose between all liquipedias. Don't do that. Make the top right a dropdown (what the button below the logo on tl.net does atm) and then turn the button below the logo into more "direct" links like e.g. on LDota. Keep this method the same across all franchise sites.
...why is it impossible to add e.g. "Dota Community" "Dota Strategy" and "Hearthstone Blogs" to my left sidebar and customize it the way I'd like to? This feature was one of the most brilliant things for regulars I've ever seen on any even remotely similar site. It allows the page itself (aka you guys) to display whatever you want for non-registered users and it allows me as a registered user to set the page up the way I'd like it to be. "Outsourcing" sites like this with zero backwards compatibility completely kills that feature.
Just to make it clear, by compatibility I also mean that someone logged into LDota right now (because he loves the small changes in icons and the banner up top) be able to customize his sidebar to add sections from tl.net or sections from LHearth. That single feature allows tl to build on something that it does better than any competition out there (being a platform for one userbase across a multitude of topics and interest) and make it work together with something everyone else does (generic sites for generic topics) at the same time. Instead you're choosing the latter by sacrificing some of the former.
That decision simply doesn't make sense, neither from a "we're doing this just for you, our community!" nor from a "We want more unique new users aka $"-perspective. This is one of the very few situations where you can indeed please everyone involved, it's just a matter of UI.
I think that it is a good move its still a liquid site and that wont change but now it is tailored to Dota which is awesome and TL is tailored to just SC which is also awesome. So I think it is a win. Thanks for all you do guys!
On May 12 2014 22:08 Latham wrote: I personally really hate this concept of sister sites. Once upon a time I had access to everything I needed on TL.net. I had Starcraft Broodwar, Starcraft II (for what little I watched - Dreamhack, MLG, GomTV Season finals), a little bit of hearthstone for fun on the side, and an ever-growing list of streams of Dota 2 tournaments. Now I'm being FORCED to juggle 3 sites just to CHECK if I'm interested in any of the streams going on, tournaments being played, participate in discussions and overall news. It's real fucking shitty. I didn't mind separating Hearthstone because it will always be a niche game without any e-sports value the way it was designed to be just a fun pastime, but now moving Dota 2? Really? You which provided me with everything-in-1-site, Teamliquid.net are going to forcefully inconvenience me to navigate to some wierd and certainly not iconic sister-offshoot just to get news on another game, you have previously made excellent articles written upon, and even have your own e-sports team? Thanks a bunch, really. I think I'm more likely to go back to joindota for news rather than visit that site for any sort of news and discussion.
On a sidenote, why not make a LiquidGeneral.net, LiquidMedia&Entertainement.net and LiquidBlogs.net?
I don't think I will like the change either. I'll adapt, but I don't think I'll like it.
I'll just go ahead and add my voice to the list of people who disagree with this change.
I found TeamLiquid when I got into the early WoL beta, and loved that I could find everything there is to find for SCBW and SC2 all on one site. Over time, I came to appreciate the general and other games forums too since discussions could be had with people who shared my interests. I lost interest in SC2 over time, but Liquid adopting DotA got me to check out that game and I fell in love with that too. I've used TL over the last few years to get all my DotA news and discussion while getting the general stuff still too.
Now I feel like I'm being kicked out. If I want to talk DotA, I have to go to a different website that's just for DotA, of which plenty exist. You guys cite Hearthstone as being a success story of this model, but it took you bringing it up for me to remember it existed. I would occasionally glance through that forum from time to time, but it's been dead to me ever since you made it it's own site, because I don't visit other sites, I visit TL.
I don't really know how this will affect my browsing, but I doubt I'll be visiting two different sites with the same frequency, so I'm sad to think that I'll either go without my TL or without my DotA.
It boggles my mind that there is no cross-over of the general/community forums to the other websites. Why does SC2 get the General/Community/Other Games/Blogs/etc.etc. forums but no one else can?
First of all, I like the new design, the calendar and how the forums work over there. However, I as many of you loved this site for it's community and ability to have all my gaming interests on one place.
I don't really get why do you guys think this will help grow dota 2 on TL. TL is a very specific site and I got on here because every caster, player and personality in sc2 mentioned it all the time. This kind of promotion and marketing is not something you are going to get in the dota 2 world.
Another thing that got me on TL were TL opens, witch are not going to happen for dota 2 any time soon. I doubt you will be able to gain a lot of traffic from reddit and other aggregate sites because braking news and rumors are covered and linked by other sites, and I don't see TL links on dota 2 reddit that much.
I won't abandon either tl.net or boycot LD, but the first thing that I have seen on the new site was an ad to get me to turn my adblock (witch I do for tl.net). I disabled it because Doom made me lough, however after reading the announcement thread and the post on reddit, I decided to not reward this (in my mind bad and business minded) move of yours and enabled it on Liquid dota. One of things that disappointed me more than anything is complete unwillingness of TL staff in this thread to even consider this as an fuck you to the veterans and core users, specially the excuses for not doing the bare minimum of having the general and community forums on both domains. I really hope this move results in enough of a drop in traffic for you to revert it or at least enable me to somehow have the site functions I had before.
Man that artwork for the banner is sick! Nice work, who did that? I love the way Liquid does everything. I'm a fan of Starcraft most but also like DOTA a lot. I think this a great step for them. Love the look of the new site! edit: To the haters: at least it isn't liquidlol.lol... lol.
At first I was very annoyed by DotA2 coverage on TeamLiquid.net, but that was because it wasn't been indicated as DotA2 coverage. The little SC2 or DotA2 icons on the news story images on the front page were my idea. They were implemented not long after I posted about it. I couldn't really fathom why they weren't in the original design because it seemed like common sense to me; some people aren't going to want to read DotA2 news, and they're going to be confused by unmarked content.
This problem was reduced over time but it was never fully eliminated. So in some ways I think this is a good move.
However, some of the comments in this thread are extremely strange to me. "I stopped playing Hearthstone because you guys moved it to its own website". What? Either you enjoyed the game or you didn't. If all you wanted to do was casually talk about it, but only if you didn't have to log into a different website, then you obviously didn't like the game that much. So what are you griping about?
So much people who are agaisnt this. This reminds me so much about Blizzard situation. Are TL ready to revert what they did or make quite big changes. Most people wouldn't be able to revert or blame their own doings. And that is what I think problem with SC2 design.
On May 12 2014 22:57 Faust852 wrote: If it isn't broken, don't fix it !
How about "If it isn't broken, don't improve it"? That doesn't sound as great, does it? In essence, the majority of TL staff involved in the discussion believe that the benefits of this change outweigh the disadvantages. This is not TL trying to "fix" anything, this is TL trying to evolve and improve.
I dont understand why we cant have the cake and eat it too. old-TL had exclusion filters. Why cant new-TL's have inclusion filters that lets me choose to have as much TL content as I want on whatever TL site?
On May 12 2014 22:57 Faust852 wrote: If it isn't broken, don't fix it !
How about "If it isn't broken, don't improve it"? That doesn't sound as great, does it? In essence, the majority of TL staff involved in the discussion believe that the benefits of this change outweigh the disadvantages. This is not TL trying to "fix" anything, this is TL trying to evolve and improve.
There are some really cool ways to improve it, but the way you did it is not one of them.
On May 12 2014 22:57 Faust852 wrote: If it isn't broken, don't fix it !
How about "If it isn't broken, don't improve it"? That doesn't sound as great, does it? In essence, the majority of TL staff involved in the discussion believe that the benefits of this change outweigh the disadvantages. This is not TL trying to "fix" anything, this is TL trying to evolve and improve.
Adding "dota2" coverage to TL.net was an improvement, spliting the community is not. Lots of users give reason to it.
especially this paragraph has lots of truth in it:
"...why is it impossible to add e.g. "Dota Community" "Dota Strategy" and "Hearthstone Blogs" to my left sidebar and customize it the way I'd like to? This feature was one of the most brilliant things for regulars I've ever seen on any even remotely similar site. It allows the page itself (aka you guys) to display whatever you want for non-registered users and it allows me as a registered user to set the page up the way I'd like it to be. "Outsourcing" sites like this with zero backwards compatibility completely kills that feature."
On May 12 2014 22:57 Faust852 wrote: If it isn't broken, don't fix it !
How about "If it isn't broken, don't improve it"? That doesn't sound as great, does it? In essence, the majority of TL staff involved in the discussion believe that the benefits of this change outweigh the disadvantages. This is not TL trying to "fix" anything, this is TL trying to evolve and improve.
There are some really cool ways to improve it, but the way you did it is not one of them.
Yeah, I always found it strange that the TL forum seems to use outdated technology from 15 years ago. All the more because this is quite a technically minded community. This is probably a good opportunity to improve on that.
Even though I kinda like the fact that each game gets a new website, it does come with its downsides.
I often visit teamliquid for streams. I watch sc2, dota 2 and hearthstone streams. Now i have to visit all websites to see whats on them. It makes me more likely to just go to twitch.tv and watch the stream from there, without visiting teamliquid at all. Also it was nice to have one website where news of multiple e-sports games is displayed without having to visit 3 different websites.
I would like it if there was still the option to show streams from all games and show news from all games.
I think it's a good direction but i would like to see Community and Blogs etc. to be displayed on dota 2 page as well because right now you have to visit two sites.
Well i guess i have mixed views. I enjoy the sc2 content even though i don't watch it anymore really so i think i will probably not be coming on TL main much once the community and other forums are shared. I enjoy the much improved calendar and stream system on liquid dota. So it depends what TL wanted from this move they wont really lose people but they will lose alot of views on their SC2 content and probably some on their dota2 content. I think alot of people also used TL to see all the streams of the games they liked (sc2/dota2/HS and i think adding CS:GO would be nice), these people will be lost and i think that number is quite large. I think a site with all the content and all the streams would be nice to have on top of the new site, with of course given the starcraft people their own site as this one.
I understand the motivation, and I almost always have more than one TL tab open at any one time (so this change won't change much but which favicon I see), but as people have put in much more detailed fashion above: if you're going to do it, so it right.
The major point, I think, is that the thing that keeps TL ahead of the numerous other sites around is that it's not just a website about Starcraft or Dota or whatever. It's a site where you can discuss the seventh episode of the third series of some niche TV show, read intense and moving (fictitious or not) stories from a paramedic, learn about the progress of a recovering addict via the medium of sculpture... There's no bottom, it just keeps going. People come for videogames and stay for the community (don't need to tell you guys that). This change has made that community shallower and less sprawling. The response from staff on the sharing of forums is positive, and that IMO is the holy grail: independent sites for each game that share the same core of general forums. That has the potential to improve the experience for people interested in the games, whilst also not cutting others off from the lifeblood of TL. Unfortunately, I think you guys made the wrong call - this shouldn't have been rolled out until that feature was in place (obvs TI4 is a big factor and hindsight is 20/20).
Of course, now we have a page for all the dota news, where it's all about it and only it, leaving the other games for the other pages of TL.
But what I really liked was seeing all the news in the same page. I like different games, and now if I want to know news about it, I have to enter and check different pages, where before I only had to open one and had it all.
Still, I hope this is good, and that we get a lot of more news and things from them.
I love clicking each new site link up top and getting sent to a new fancy customized template for each game. It does a great job of absorbing me into the environment and say "hey, you are here to view such and such game." I really love it. And then just click the tl.net tab to return to all the general threads of greatness. its actually very well thought out and detailed. I'm sure you all will enjoy it soon enough. At least its not windows 8 metro templated.
On May 13 2014 00:21 aicaramba wrote: Even though I kinda like the fact that each game gets a new website, it does come with its downsides.
I often visit teamliquid for streams. I watch sc2, dota 2 and hearthstone streams. Now i have to visit all websites to see whats on them. It makes me more likely to just go to twitch.tv and watch the stream from there, without visiting teamliquid at all. Also it was nice to have one website where news of multiple e-sports games is displayed without having to visit 3 different websites.
I would like it if there was still the option to show streams from all games and show news from all games.
That's true for me too, before I never visited Twitch to see if Trump is online, now I always do it. Well, good for Twitch I guess.
On May 12 2014 22:57 Faust852 wrote: If it isn't broken, don't fix it !
How about "If it isn't broken, don't improve it"? That doesn't sound as great, does it? In essence, the majority of TL staff involved in the discussion believe that the benefits of this change outweigh the disadvantages. This is not TL trying to "fix" anything, this is TL trying to evolve and improve.
Adding "dota2" coverage to TL.net was an improvement, spliting the community is not. Lots of users give reason to it.
especially this paragraph has lots of truth in it:
"...why is it impossible to add e.g. "Dota Community" "Dota Strategy" and "Hearthstone Blogs" to my left sidebar and customize it the way I'd like to? This feature was one of the most brilliant things for regulars I've ever seen on any even remotely similar site. It allows the page itself (aka you guys) to display whatever you want for non-registered users and it allows me as a registered user to set the page up the way I'd like it to be. "Outsourcing" sites like this with zero backwards compatibility completely kills that feature."
Several staff members have made very detailed responses to much of that criticism. Below is what I posted earlier in this thread, detailing some of the reasoning behind this change.
On May 12 2014 08:05 Zealously wrote: So, as promised, here is a summary of what the interested staff members had to say about the idea of moving Dota2 to its own site:
The issue of too much content: Yes, filters exist. But as a rule of thumb, I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of TL's visitors do not know of or do not use filters, and first-time visitors were very likely to feel overwhelmed by the abundance of content - with Dota and two Starcrafts, there was so much of it that it became periodically hard to navigate. It is true that filters may be the most comfortable solution for established members, but if you come to a new site you typically don't want to go through the trouble of finding a filter function before you start browsing through the stuff you're interested in. With Liquiddota, TL goes back to being a source of Starcraft news, and thus more 'welcoming' for Starcraft fans visiting the site for the first time, whereas Liquiddota becomes a dedicated Dota site that runs no risk of confusing new visitors.
Competition: Most of TL's competitors are dedicated sites. This ties in with the previous point in that a site covering many different games will be, in general, less attractive to a dedicated fan than a site covering your game specifically. The quality of content can be the same, or even slightly worse, on a dedicated site, and the fan that cares only about that single game is still more likely to go there, both for the sense of community and because it feels more natural to go to LiquidHearth than it does to go to LiquidSeveralGamesYouDontLikeAndHearthstone. The idea is that a dedicated site will offer more competition and attract more visitors than TL's Dota section did.
Also, I think it's fair to say that the Dota community as a whole views Teamliquid as "the Starcraft site that also does Dota" rather than "a Dota site like any other", and not without reason. Below is a quote by monk on the subject when Nazgul first brought up the idea of a separate Dota site. + Show Spoiler +
On February 13 2014 20:44 monk wrote: The way I see TL Dota right now is the same way I view Gosugamers HS coverage. Besides LH, Gosugamers actually has the best HS articles on the web right now. However, even though you might read a HS article by them linked on reddit, it's very unlikely that you'll stay on their site. There's just way too many games covered there and everything is impossible to find, especially HS content. As a result, there's no HS community there and their forums are barren. The same problem seems to be happening for Dota 2 on TL. As far as I can tell or what I've heard is that we have some best articles on the web, but articles aren't what are going to draw users to stay on the site if everything is so difficult to find and there isn't a sense of shared community
Relating to that, I've noticed that Dota has way fewer, if any, cool ancillary features compared to what SC2 currently has on TL or what LH is planned to have. SC2 currently has TLPD, FPL, and Liquibet. LH is planned to have a Deck Builder, Arena Simulator, and Puzzle Maker. To the best of my knowledge, Dota has none of that. I don't know the particular reasons for that but if Dota had its own site, there'd at least be additional room to put these features.
Although the HS move to LH was a much more drastic change than the proposed Dota move, I already see a lot of cool things resulting from it. I see 1 post users posting all the time. There's also a ton of HS blogs where there weren't before (we average about 1 blog a day). We almost never had HS blogs on TL and looking over blogs now, I don't think I see a single Dota 2 blog.
Speaking from experience working on LH, I enjoy working on the site a lot more and there's just so many more opportunities to display content. For example, we have a featured video everyday. In addition, because we don't have to compete with another game, each article we put out can get a lot more time on the front page. All in all, I think a new TL Dota site is a great idea and it'll be great for both the Dota staff and the building of a Liquid Dota community.
On May 12 2014 07:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Was hoping mod/staff would be able to answer....
How successful would you guys rate the splitting of Hearthstone from teamliquid?
It was successful. It definitely wouldn't have worked putting it on TL frontpage and having HS, StarCraft, Dota, etc on it. If you were to compare LH to the option of keeping it on TL, it's not really even close in terms of how it can grow.
On May 12 2014 07:37 FiWiFaKi wrote: I mean it's hard to say if teamliquid has been making good decisions recently, as their viewership has dropped to around 50% of what it was a year ago (going off of "active", as well as the activity I've been seeing). The real question is whether this will continue that streak or change it. This can be a really big nail in the coffin for teamliquid if it doesn't work out.
In terms of traffic, viewership across all StarCraft sites has declined since 2012. I don't think this has much to do with any decisions we're making, it's just a reality in the scene.
Dota was not growing on TL (at least not at the rate we consider acceptable) and the reason for this is because our Dota audience is just people that already use TL, not new users. This is because you have a site with a calendar not tailored to the game, with StarCraft icons, etc. It's not a very welcoming place for a Dota fan. This move at minimum will give our Dota staff and community a chance to grow. Status quo simply wasn't cutting it.
Front page oversaturation: The separation of Hearthstone and Teamliquid alleviated this somewhat, but with potentially three games on the front page for some fans, it was impossible for the content we churned out to receive the attention it deserves. On some days, the articles on the front page would all be replaced within 24 hours, thus decreasing the amount of views that the different writer groups create. TL as a site wants to create great coverage for several games, and on the whole that's something TL succeeds in doing, but when something like 6 or 7 articles all go up within the span of a day, the content suddenly becomes overwhelming. For a fan interested in more than one game, there's suddenly too much, and too little attention given to the people that put hours in to create that content.
On that note, though this is a minor issue, there is some overlap once The International starts, and that tournament drowns out everything else for the duration of it due to its incredible magnitude. Remember last year, when WCS' Regional finals all took place during TI3? Do you remember the amount of content put out pretty much every hour? I swear at least one of the editors had a heart attack as a result.
The issue of separation: A lot of people seem to feel like Liquiddota shatters the TL community, and I suppose in a way that is true. But the consensus was, and this is how I feel as well, that simply breaking TL down further with more and more sub-forums and sub-communities within a larger whole does not significantly aid the creation of a "community". The people that hang out in General tend to hang out in General, while those who frequented Dota did so and little else. Of course, there are a select few veteran members that browsed most of the site, but they are in the minority. The creation of Liquiddota is an attempt to create a Dota community with minor ties to TL (Starcraft), not simply a relocation of the site's Dota fans to another URL.
The purpose of the new site is to build a community for Dota fans much like other significant Dota sites available, and create a community just like a community was built around Brood War when TL first launched in 2002. People will come to Liquiddota as Dota fans and to Teamliquid as Starcraft fans, and those who really care about both games have the option to utilize the features including shared PMs and the like and visit both sites. It will be inconvenient for some users, yes, but long-term, Liquiddota allows for much more growth than cramming several games into the same site ever did.
The "family" factor: One issue that was brought up was the concern that the different communities will feel much more separate now than as a single site, thus losing some of the "Family"-feeling that was present during the site's earlier years. Especially for those veterans that frequented multiple sub-forums, I see how this may be a concern. But if you feel like this is an issue, keep in mind that TL is massive now compared to five-or-so years ago. That sense of a tight-knit community was already half-gone with just how large the site has become. It wasn't possible, even for those who spend four hours a day on TL like some of us do, to know everyone byname.
On February 16 2014 06:26 2Pacalypse- wrote: I think you may be overselling the "family" factor. This may have been true once in the old days of BW, but now TL has become too big to have that feeling across the site. For example, and don't take this the wrong way, but I have never seen your account until a couple of days ago and you're a staff user with 9k posts.
The point is that you're much likely to have that feeling of family with people who share your interests. This is why I'm against sharing the non-game specific forums across the sites. I think our main focus should be in attracting new users and building new sub-communities, and best way to achieve this is by letting community creates itself and not by us micromanaging it.
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
On May 13 2014 02:10 pigmanbear wrote: This is awesome news. Now please get everything that has to do with DOTA off of TL
That's the idea
Ok, so filters are apparently too complicated for new users, but why can't going to TL give someone a pre-filtered website that shows SC2 content and going to LiquidDota give someone a pre-filtered website that shows Dota 2 content, with the general/other games/etc. forums overlapping between the two? I fail to see why those non SC2/DotA/Hearthstone forums belong on the SC2 site now that we are segregating everything.
And to clarify about the Hearthstone thing. I'm not saying I stopped playing the game because TL coverage moved to a separate site, I'm saying I stopped caring at all about TL's coverage when it moved to another site, and have since forgotten that site even exists. My homepage is TL, not LiquidHearth, and honestly I can't be bothered to check up on every individual site that TL wants ad revenue on now that there are like 5 of them.
This seems like a pure and simple business decision. That's annoying for long-term users who are affected negatively, but at least it's understandable. What's boggling me, however, is how half of the staff responses actually explain the business reasons for doing this and the other half are people saying "It's for your own good! You'll like it eventually!" No, I really won't. It's not like I'll start boycotting TeamLiquid out of spite but I'll sure visit a lot less because it's no longer what it was in the past, a place for me to get all the news I could ever want for BW/SC2/DotA and general shit that people interested in those games like to talk about.
Obviously this is just my perspective, but it sure seems like a lot of people are sharing it with me.
100% agree thats a very positive change imho,its only 1 click more and you got so much better experience than before, i would like when i click the link from tl main page the liquidota site to open as new tab with out to press the mouse wheel.
could the live events listed be collapsable per event or something, because even though the additional info is nice, if the event isn't intresting in itself the tab feels like it takes too much room. And make the live events list updateable like the main page is, otherwise you'll need a secondary tl page open just to update the list.
This is stupid. Guess I'll need to find a different community. I like SC2 and Dota 2 the same and it was very convenient to have them in the same place.
Why are people bringing LiquidHearth into this? It was a really different situation because HearthStone is/was the new thing on TL that instalty got moved to another page. Dota2 was here for two years or so, people integrated into the rest of the community. Its a different issue now.
I think the team icons on posts are amazing on the new site. My only worry is that TL could become more of an elitist section of the community, where the welcoming atmosphere is lessened just due to the fact that it was the original site.
However I think having all the sub-communities (health and fitness, mafia, eve, ...) here on TL makes it more friendly just on principle, so there probably isn't a huge risk of it turning cliquey / clannish.
Do cookies and things not serve as a "this user has been here before" mechanism?
E.G: New visitors can be given a 2 second selection as to which content they want to view and further customise it later.
So, new visitor clicks on TL, gets "Which games do you wish to see content for?" user clicks dota, smash. TL settings are set accordingly, same crap for new accounts.
Bit easier then new websites for everybody. Some of us don't follow the other scenes so closely but like to read articles or click on streams every now and then if something catches our eye. Now we don't get that option.
Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
I used to be able to see links to Starcraft, Dota, and Hearthstone all on the same website. Now I have to swtich back and forth between three just to get an idea of what tournaments are going on or who's playing. I don't mind that there are game specific websites but PLEASE let us have the option to put Dota and Hearthstone back on our teamliquid.net stream list!
If any generic news site can cover so many different categories of news, why can't an e-sports news site do the same? I realize this is simplifying things as a generic news site will not have as large of a community or subforums for discussion. But really, I can't think of any good thing to come out of this. I think part of the disappointment is that I would have expected better from you guys.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
"Cold numbers and money" definitely factor in as they will in any business that needs to pay bills, but it's both close-minded and ignorant to say that that's what the decision was all about - it wasn't. In all the discussion we had in staff forums, very little of it was about maximizing profits at all - rather, we focused on other aspects that I and several other staff members have detailed in this thread that everyone felt would create a better experience for the majority of users, both new and old.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable. You may feel that "dual" fans - those who watch both Dota 2 and SC2 - are in the majority, but in my experience that's completely untrue. The people that post the most - the oldest members - may be fans of multiple games, but the majority of new users come for one game and stay for one game, uninterested in the others. That you would imply that everyone on TL loves BW and SC2 and Dota and LoL alike is interesting, because that's not what I've seen at all.
On May 13 2014 04:36 love9n wrote: If any generic news site can cover so many different categories of news, why can't an e-sports news site do the same? I realize this is simplifying things as a generic news site will not have as large of a community or subforums for discussion. But really, I can't think of any good thing to come out of this. I think part of the disappointment is that I would have expected better from you guys.
Any generic news site can cover a lot of different categories, but they have a different set-up from TL designed with that purpose in mind. What would you say if Footballnews.com (I don't know if that's a thing at all) suddenly started covering swimming, basketball and hockey as well? The analogy isn't perfect, granted, but TL was originally an SC-centric site and that's what many people still associated the site with, long after TL expanded into Dota.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because TL made it show for everyone, to promote TL Dota content specifically and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters TL implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the TL community.
Well after some hands-on experience I have to say I dislike having 2 separate forums, at least in the form they are implemented now. I use TL as a starting point of all Interwebs activity and a hub for all the smaller communities I enjoy reading about. Sidebar customisation did wonders for my TL browsing experience as it eliminated need to use inferior custom scripts that provided the same features beforehand.
In the new setup however I have Doto General with a fancy calendar and sections that were already available in the sub-forum (at the cost of being completely disconnected from rest of TL) and the "mangled" remains of old TL without anything that will keep me browsing on TL.net for longer periods of time (as opposed to short burst of activity). This is where subforum format worked wonders as long as you were aware of how you can customise your TL experience. Much of the downsides I feel would disappear if sidebar customisation worked as someone suggested earler: letting you play mix-and-match between sections across all sister sites and main TL.net. There could be technical difficulties in implementing this solution, but I'm convinced that it would let people like me use TL like we had before, while still giving you the full benefit of having separate sites.
I definitely see potential in new TLDota, but I equally see how it can drive hub-users away from TL. It kind of feels like a car suddenly undergoing mitosis, adding shiny LEDs and cardboard spoilers but forgetting to add a wheel and an engine, while leaving the parent car without a body
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because you made it show for everyone, to promote your Dota content and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters you implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the community.
Indeed, but it certainly displayed that a fairly large amount of regular TL visitors (those that tend to post in articles) wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dota (more than one person got really hostile about it), and that was just a single article (something that was repeatedly clarified). Also, the nature of the article (This is how Dota 2 works, for a non-Dota 2 fan) would have made it very silly to hide it from the other sections, because the Dota 2 fans already knew how the game works. There was an idea to make a similar one but for Dota -> SC2, but it never happened. Even setting that incident aside, try mentioning Dota or LoL in an LR thread and see if you won't get at least a few replies telling you how shitty Mobas are or how easy the genre is. Try an SPL LR thread for example. It happens almost every week.
On May 13 2014 04:35 TheRealPaciFist wrote: [..] PLEASE let us have the option to put Dota [..] back on our teamliquid.net stream list!
I'd like to echo this part. Getting a quick overview of streams up across the board from just going on TL (like I've been able to for a while now) would be preferable.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because you made it show for everyone, to promote your Dota content and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters you implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the community.
Indeed, but it certainly displayed that a fairly large amount of regular TL visitors (those that tend to post in articles) wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dota (more than one person got really hostile about it), and that was just a single article (something that was repeatedly clarified). Also, the nature of the article (This is how Dota 2 works, for a non-Dota 2 fan) would have made it very silly to hide it from the other sections, because the Dota 2 fans already knew how the game works. There was an idea to make a similar one but for Dota -> SC2, but it never happened. Even setting that incident aside, try mentioning Dota or LoL in an LR thread and see if you won't get at least a few replies telling you how shitty Mobas are or how easy the genre is. Try an SPL LR thread for example. It happens almost every week.
Hide from what sections? Dota content should be flagged as Dota content. Dota curious visitors wouldn't hide Dota in the first place. Filtering it out is a clear statement of disinterest. A statement that was thoroughly ignored, for potential new Dota clicks, hence the shitstorm.
LRs are the homes of fanatics, SPL more so than most. Talking about other games in an LR thread is pretty disrespectful to begin with (unless it's one of those hilarious GOM mobile game ads). Especially with all the 'ded gaem' tards floating around.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because you made it show for everyone, to promote your Dota content and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters you implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the community.
Indeed, but it certainly displayed that a fairly large amount of regular TL visitors (those that tend to post in articles) wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dota (more than one person got really hostile about it), and that was just a single article (something that was repeatedly clarified). Also, the nature of the article (This is how Dota 2 works, for a non-Dota 2 fan) would have made it very silly to hide it from the other sections, because the Dota 2 fans already knew how the game works. There was an idea to make a similar one but for Dota -> SC2, but it never happened. Even setting that incident aside, try mentioning Dota or LoL in an LR thread and see if you won't get at least a few replies telling you how shitty Mobas are or how easy the genre is. Try an SPL LR thread for example. It happens almost every week.
Hide from what sections? Dota content should be flagged as Dota content. Dota curious visitors wouldn't hide Dota in the first place. Filtering it out is a clear statement of disinterest. A statement that was thoroughly ignored, for potential new Dota clicks, hence the shitstorm.
LRs are the homes of fanatics, SPL more so than most. Talking about other games in an LR thread is pretty disrespectful to begin with (unless it's one of those hilarious GOM mobile game ads). Especially with all the 'ded gaem' tards floating around.
The Viewers' Guide was an attempt to pique interest among those that didn't know the game or hadn't really watched it because they didn't understand what was going on. It was a one-off occurance that was never going to be repeated and it was aimed specifically at potentially teaching a few people who might be interested but unaware of how the game worked. To let it be filtered out with the other Dota content would have been counterproductive, because the article would not have reached its intended audience. Exactly the same would have happened with a SC2 Viewers' Guide. You may think it was unfair or stupid, but you can't reach an audience if the audience literally cannot see your stuff.
As for the second part, it was merely an example. Most SC2 threads that progress beyond a few pages or discuss game design are usually bound to eventually touch upon one or the other, and not rarely are those posts that do overwhelmingly negative. I don't know how often you browse the forums, but it was always pretty clear that the two fan bases were at each other's throats a lot of the time when discussion got heated. No matter how you choose to explain it, you're far off base if you mean to say that there weren't a lot of shitting on one game or the other between the two fan bases from time to time. That alone may not be enough of a reason to justify separating the two games entirely, but that's the reality of it.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because you made it show for everyone, to promote your Dota content and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters you implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the community.
Indeed, but it certainly displayed that a fairly large amount of regular TL visitors (those that tend to post in articles) wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dota (more than one person got really hostile about it), and that was just a single article (something that was repeatedly clarified). Also, the nature of the article (This is how Dota 2 works, for a non-Dota 2 fan) would have made it very silly to hide it from the other sections, because the Dota 2 fans already knew how the game works. There was an idea to make a similar one but for Dota -> SC2, but it never happened. Even setting that incident aside, try mentioning Dota or LoL in an LR thread and see if you won't get at least a few replies telling you how shitty Mobas are or how easy the genre is. Try an SPL LR thread for example. It happens almost every week.
Hide from what sections? Dota content should be flagged as Dota content. Dota curious visitors wouldn't hide Dota in the first place. Filtering it out is a clear statement of disinterest. A statement that was thoroughly ignored, for potential new Dota clicks, hence the shitstorm.
LRs are the homes of fanatics, SPL more so than most. Talking about other games in an LR thread is pretty disrespectful to begin with (unless it's one of those hilarious GOM mobile game ads). Especially with all the 'ded gaem' tards floating around.
The Viewers' Guide was an attempt to pique interest among those that didn't know the game or hadn't really watched it because they didn't understand what was going on. It was a one-off occurance that was never going to be repeated and it was aimed specifically at potentially teaching a few people who might be interested but unaware of how the game worked. To let it be filtered out with the other Dota content would have been counterproductive, because the article would not have reached its intended audience. Exactly the same would have happened with a SC2 Viewers' Guide. You may think it was unfair or stupid, but you can't reach an audience if the audience literally cannot see your stuff.
As for the second part, it was merely an example. Most SC2 threads that progress beyond a few pages or discuss game design are usually bound to eventually touch upon one or the other, and not rarely are those posts that do overwhelmingly negative. I don't know how often you browse the forums, but it was always pretty clear that the two fan bases were at each other's throats a lot of the time when discussion got heated. No matter how you choose to explain it, you're far off base if you mean to say that there weren't a lot of shitting on one game or the other between the two fan bases from time to time. That alone may not be enough of a reason to justify separating the two games entirely, but that's the reality of it.
Several high ranking officials have already stated in this very thread that most TL users do not use the filters or even know they exist. Unless the "intended audience" was people who never wanted anything to do with Dota, and went out of their way to ignore it, this defeats the entire argument.
And yes, people who enjoy different kinds of games don't want the 'people who are wrong' to dictate to them what makes a game good or not. Not exactly rocket science. I wouldn't want the input of Gears of Wars fans saying "this game should do this more like Gears of War does" either in that particular subject.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
"Cold numbers and money" definitely factor in as they will in any business that needs to pay bills, but it's both close-minded and ignorant to say that that's what the decision was all about - it wasn't. In all the discussion we had in staff forums, very little of it was about maximizing profits at all - rather, we focused on other aspects that I and several other staff members have detailed in this thread that everyone felt would create a better experience for the majority of users, both new and old.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable. You may feel that "dual" fans - those who watch both Dota 2 and SC2 - are in the majority, but in my experience that's completely untrue. The people that post the most - the oldest members - may be fans of multiple games, but the majority of new users come for one game and stay for one game, uninterested in the others. That you would imply that everyone on TL loves BW and SC2 and Dota and LoL alike is interesting, because that's not what I've seen at all.
On May 13 2014 04:36 love9n wrote: If any generic news site can cover so many different categories of news, why can't an e-sports news site do the same? I realize this is simplifying things as a generic news site will not have as large of a community or subforums for discussion. But really, I can't think of any good thing to come out of this. I think part of the disappointment is that I would have expected better from you guys.
Any generic news site can cover a lot of different categories, but they have a different set-up from TL designed with that purpose in mind. What would you say if Footballnews.com (I don't know if that's a thing at all) suddenly started covering swimming, basketball and hockey as well? The analogy isn't perfect, granted, but TL was originally an SC-centric site and that's what many people still associated the site with, long after TL expanded into Dota.
I'm not implying all people on Liquid like all games. I'm implying that I can write a blog on TL and I can get responses from people that identify with me even though they happen to like Dota and I happen to like Starcraft. TL hasn't survived by catering to every random 12 year old who can't handle other games existing, yet now there's a big MOBA bubble let's throw these values overboard and get a piece of the pie. Let's ignore what makes TL unique and be another random Dota site.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable.
The shitstorm was because you made it show for everyone, to promote your Dota content and get it more clicks, despite people's filter preferences, filters you implemented, specifying that they wished to have no part in it. It had nothing to do with hating the Dota section of the community.
Indeed, but it certainly displayed that a fairly large amount of regular TL visitors (those that tend to post in articles) wanted absolutely nothing to do with Dota (more than one person got really hostile about it), and that was just a single article (something that was repeatedly clarified). Also, the nature of the article (This is how Dota 2 works, for a non-Dota 2 fan) would have made it very silly to hide it from the other sections, because the Dota 2 fans already knew how the game works. There was an idea to make a similar one but for Dota -> SC2, but it never happened. Even setting that incident aside, try mentioning Dota or LoL in an LR thread and see if you won't get at least a few replies telling you how shitty Mobas are or how easy the genre is. Try an SPL LR thread for example. It happens almost every week.
So what? It's the internet, people are going to disagree and argue. Do you really think that if you separate Dota 2 players from SC2 players they're not going to find internal differences to argue about?
As if the BW core TL was founded on all loved SC2, as if there weren't elephants in the room then. But you'd be hard pressed to find people who think TeamLiquid would've been better off today if LiquidSC2.net had been a thing. Both sites would probably barely exist today. Liquid means something as a brand, it's kind of ignorant to think chopping it in pieces will be fine.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
"Cold numbers and money" definitely factor in as they will in any business that needs to pay bills, but it's both close-minded and ignorant to say that that's what the decision was all about - it wasn't. In all the discussion we had in staff forums, very little of it was about maximizing profits at all - rather, we focused on other aspects that I and several other staff members have detailed in this thread that everyone felt would create a better experience for the majority of users, both new and old.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable. You may feel that "dual" fans - those who watch both Dota 2 and SC2 - are in the majority, but in my experience that's completely untrue. The people that post the most - the oldest members - may be fans of multiple games, but the majority of new users come for one game and stay for one game, uninterested in the others. That you would imply that everyone on TL loves BW and SC2 and Dota and LoL alike is interesting, because that's not what I've seen at all.
On May 13 2014 04:36 love9n wrote: If any generic news site can cover so many different categories of news, why can't an e-sports news site do the same? I realize this is simplifying things as a generic news site will not have as large of a community or subforums for discussion. But really, I can't think of any good thing to come out of this. I think part of the disappointment is that I would have expected better from you guys.
Any generic news site can cover a lot of different categories, but they have a different set-up from TL designed with that purpose in mind. What would you say if Footballnews.com (I don't know if that's a thing at all) suddenly started covering swimming, basketball and hockey as well? The analogy isn't perfect, granted, but TL was originally an SC-centric site and that's what many people still associated the site with, long after TL expanded into Dota.
I'm not implying all people on Liquid like all games. I'm implying that I can write a blog on TL and I can get responses from people that identify with me even though they happen to like Dota and I happen to like Starcraft. TL hasn't survived by catering to every random 12 year old who can't handle other games existing, yet now there's a big MOBA bubble let's throw these values overboard and get a piece of the pie. Let's ignore what makes TL unique and be another random Dota site.
Regarding this, if you read Nazgul's blog you'll see that we've taken on board all the feedback regarding shared community forums. We were on the fence before and decided to hold back at that time, but the feedback is pretty clear on this and it is now our priority to fix this issue.
On May 13 2014 04:19 Saechiis wrote: Not going to lie, as a person who's been visiting TL for years this feels like a fuck you. We already have you and you'll probably stick around even if we make things more uncomfortable for you, but if you leave that's fine as we expect to have more new users.
Awful decision to focus on singular games rather than on the fact that we're all people who like to play games and be competetive. Especially when it's largely a decision based on cold numbers and money.
"Cold numbers and money" definitely factor in as they will in any business that needs to pay bills, but it's both close-minded and ignorant to say that that's what the decision was all about - it wasn't. In all the discussion we had in staff forums, very little of it was about maximizing profits at all - rather, we focused on other aspects that I and several other staff members have detailed in this thread that everyone felt would create a better experience for the majority of users, both new and old.
And you may say that "we're all people who like to play games", and while that may be true it doesn't paint the image fairly. There was and is a lot of animosity between the SC2 fan base, for some reason, and the fan bases of Dota 2 / LoL. Remember when there was one single Dota 2 Beginners' Guide up around TI3 last year that showed up for everyone? The shitstorm was unbelievable. You may feel that "dual" fans - those who watch both Dota 2 and SC2 - are in the majority, but in my experience that's completely untrue. The people that post the most - the oldest members - may be fans of multiple games, but the majority of new users come for one game and stay for one game, uninterested in the others. That you would imply that everyone on TL loves BW and SC2 and Dota and LoL alike is interesting, because that's not what I've seen at all.
On May 13 2014 04:36 love9n wrote: If any generic news site can cover so many different categories of news, why can't an e-sports news site do the same? I realize this is simplifying things as a generic news site will not have as large of a community or subforums for discussion. But really, I can't think of any good thing to come out of this. I think part of the disappointment is that I would have expected better from you guys.
Any generic news site can cover a lot of different categories, but they have a different set-up from TL designed with that purpose in mind. What would you say if Footballnews.com (I don't know if that's a thing at all) suddenly started covering swimming, basketball and hockey as well? The analogy isn't perfect, granted, but TL was originally an SC-centric site and that's what many people still associated the site with, long after TL expanded into Dota.
I'm not implying all people on Liquid like all games. I'm implying that I can write a blog on TL and I can get responses from people that identify with me even though they happen to like Dota and I happen to like Starcraft. TL hasn't survived by catering to every random 12 year old who can't handle other games existing, yet now there's a big MOBA bubble let's throw these values overboard and get a piece of the pie. Let's ignore what makes TL unique and be another random Dota site.
Regarding this, if you read Nazgul's blog you'll see that we've taken on board all the feedback regarding shared community forums. We were on the fence before and decided to hold back at that time, but the feedback is pretty clear on this and it is now our priority to fix this issue.
Good to hear. I'm not opposed to having a nice pure Dota 2 page, however I am strongly opposed to separating forums and also to removing the ability to *opt in* to seeing both SC2 and Dota2 content on teamliquid.net. It really shouldn't be that hard to publish articles to both sites and the Dota 2 filter could just default to Off.
Also, saying that TL.net is just thought of as being a Starcraft site (earlier posts) is naive. Liquid has always felt like more than that and people will learn over time. Switching the main site to *actually* being Starcraft-only again isn't going to help it's image.
LiquidDota.com itself is very nice looking! Great features - it just feels like content is arbitrarily gated between sites.
maybe it's homeostasis but I dislike the change we were a family I come from a starcraft background now manly watching dota but I very much am a teamliquidperson and prefered the sites together meh maybe I'm too old school
I'm just curious, FireBolt/Zealously/Naz/Other Reds/Blues, if you expected this reaction. I mean, is it possible that you thought this was a good idea and would go over well, but are reconsidering some aspects of the idea (not connecting the General Forum, getting rid of the Dota streams, others) in light of the backlash?
On May 13 2014 07:52 soon.Cloak wrote: I'm just curious, FireBolt/Zealously/Naz/Other Reds/Blues, if you expected this reaction. I mean, is it possible that you thought this was a good idea and would go over well, but are reconsidering some aspects of the idea (not connecting the General Forum, getting rid of the Dota streams, others) in light of the backlash?
I wasn't closely involved with any of this, but I'll tell you that almost every change this site has seen gets this much "backlash" -- the powers-that-be will no doubt consider the legitimate concerns, but I'm also sure that they'll give it a chance to grow into its own before making any major changes.
I think that's a good approach for everyone. If you can chill, chill. There are a lot of positives for Dota having its own site; chief among them is growth -- which I think we all want for the Dota community.
I just wish there were still tournament threads and streams listed on this site. Sucks that I still get LoL and stuff here, but not other games I'm actually interested in on one site. For ages now I've just been able to load TL to see if any SC2/Dota streams are worth watching, and apparently that's now over
The aim was apparently to get this site back to being dedicated to SC, which is fine, but I object to LoL content being here still and not Dota given that aim I have no problem with LoL per se, I'm just not interested in it but I am in dota, so it's doubly annoying...
Dunno, kinda liked having TL as my go-to site for all my E-SPORTS. Then again, it makes sense to have separate sites, with the flood of Dota tournies and all.
I appreciate the effort of change, but sadly I have been trained to go to Teamliquid for about 7 years now for everything I want to know, specially DOTA, since it has been around since the beginning... and now I am forced to look at 2 different websites for things. Ad revenue aside from pushing people to 2 sites, this will just make me watch less DOTA2 and Less SC2, because I can't find it all on one site
I have literally watched absolutely no Hearthstone tournaments or anything other than Trump/Kripp since Hearthstone change, and I see nothing changing with me and DOTA2 and SC2
On May 13 2014 10:26 Ydriel wrote: Dunno, kinda liked having TL as my go-to site for all my E-SPORTS. Then again, it makes sense to have separate sites, with the flood of Dota tournies and all.
agreed. i like liquiddota, and it should be a site only for dota, however i do not agree with teamliquid.net separating dota from it. i like typing 'tea' into my firefox browser, and teamliquid opening up, and hitting up a dota stream and getting dota news right from there. i don't think the idea of 2 separate sites is more efficient.
edit: furthermore, i believe a change of this magnitude should have warranted a community poll ahead of time. because if we're honest, the dota community is magnitudes larger than the sc2 community right now, so only makes sense to incorporate both since "Team Liquid" is an sc2 and dota team. (i know this is a sc first-and-foremost site, so don't bother reiterating that). just my $0.02 on how change should be assessed.
On May 13 2014 10:30 ImHuko wrote: I appreciate the effort of change, but sadly I have been trained to go to Teamliquid for about 7 years now for everything I want to know, specially DOTA, since it has been around since the beginning... and now I am forced to look at 2 different websites for things. Ad revenue aside from pushing people to 2 sites, this will just make me watch less DOTA2 and Less SC2, because I can't find it all on one site
I have literally watched absolutely no Hearthstone tournaments or anything other than Trump/Kripp since Hearthstone change, and I see nothing changing with me and DOTA2 and SC2
and yes, this is my exact same scenario teamliquid is my go-to for eSSPORTS. not an eSPORT.
absolutely hate this, on the other hand, this is a great opportunity for a new site to come up and fill in the gap that just appeared (esports event/stream aggregator w/ community forums)
I am very happy about this move. I am only here for Starcraft and not interested in Dota at all and while there may be some people who are interested in both games it should certainly be a minority. It always seemed pretty arbitrary anyway that Starcraft and Dota in particular were put together. They are not even both from Blizzard or anything like that. With Starcraft and Hearthstone it would have made at least a little bit more sense but I am also very happy that that is not the case. I personally follow both Starcraft and Hearthstone but I am very glad that I can visit two different Liquid sites for it and not have the content mixed together on one site because Liquid offers so much content for each of them. If I was following both Starcraft and Dota I would also prefer a separate site for Dota, so I think those people should actually be the most happy about this change. If you only followed one game you could always just use the filter of course but if you wanted to follow both you could only get one news page with both stuff mixed together. I also don't understand people saying that they saw TL as a general esports news site. In that case it would have been pretty biased, making Dota seem so much more important than LoL. I remember when they opened the Dota section they said it was because a lot of staff people liked both Starcraft and Dota but I always thought that was a silly reason to put these two together.
So I messaged the emulator who mentioned earlier he would expand on the decision for no hide spoilers option, while I wait for a response could any other TL staff explain this? I understand I sound like a baby but this would make liquid dota something I would rarely use. Hide spoilers was the best feature ever and without it I'll have little to no use for either site.
On May 13 2014 10:26 Ydriel wrote: Dunno, kinda liked having TL as my go-to site for all my E-SPORTS. Then again, it makes sense to have separate sites, with the flood of Dota tournies and all.
agreed. i like liquiddota, and it should be a site only for dota, however i do not agree with teamliquid.net separating dota from it. i like typing 'tea' into my firefox browser, and teamliquid opening up, and hitting up a dota stream and getting dota news right from there. i don't think the idea of 2 separate sites is more efficient.
Because if they don't separate them, no one would be forced to go to liquiddota and it would obviously just die.
They're giving it a chance which is normal, I just hope if it doesn't pick up they either go back to how it was, or find a way to make the sites a bit more connected (which is the main gripe I currently have)
Thank god. I might actually start visiting TL again. The mix of Dota 2 content with the Starcraft content really, really put me off this site. It made me feel like you guys didn't care about StarCraft anymore. These days I've been going to reddit for my starcraft fix.
I'm disappointed it took this long to make this move.
Only one way to find out the community's opinion and motivation.
Poll: Which game(s) are you interested in, and do you like the change?
Both Starcraft and Dota2, disapprove (37)
45%
Only Starcraft, approve (13)
16%
Both Starcraft and Dota2, approve (11)
13%
Only Starcraft, disapprove (6)
7%
Only Dota2, disapprove (6)
7%
Only Dota2, approve (5)
6%
Only here for the community, disapprove (3)
4%
Only here for the community, approve (1)
1%
82 total votes
Your vote: Which game(s) are you interested in, and do you like the change?
(Vote): Both Starcraft and Dota2, approve (Vote): Both Starcraft and Dota2, disapprove (Vote): Only Starcraft, approve (Vote): Only Starcraft, disapprove (Vote): Only Dota2, approve (Vote): Only Dota2, disapprove (Vote): Only here for the community, approve (Vote): Only here for the community, disapprove
As others have already mentioned I found it very convenient to be able to access both dota and sc2 news/streams from the same site. Just refresh the stream button or check the schedule for both games at the same time.
I was kindof into hearthstone but with the LiquidHearth site being introduced and me being forced to another site if I wanted to check hearthstone tournaments and streams my interest for the game as an esport sortof died.
tl;dr I dont like the idea of separating the various esports TL do provide coverage of because it'll most likely lessen the curiosity of other titles.
edit: Liquiddota.net is freaking gorgeous by the way. Maybe implement an option for users to configure which games theyd like to view the newsfeed/streams/upcoming events for?
On May 13 2014 19:00 NEEDZMOAR wrote: I was kindof into hearthstone but with the LiquidHearth site being introduced and me being forced to another site if I wanted to check hearthstone tournaments and streams my interest for the game as an esport sortof died.
This happened to me too.
And the main reason for that is because I missed a large part of the TL community feeling on liquid hearth. Thats the current problem with liquiddota too. Right now I have to go back to the starcraft site to read the general sections of TL
But fortunately Nazgul quickly recognised that issue and says the community forums missing from liquiddota is a priority fix for TL If they fix that I'm actually quite happy with the change.
Shared community, blogs and other game sections between all TL daughter sites and it's fine. And the new site looks great, I love the new calender
Considering some blogs are general and some are starcraft/dota related it might be an idea to split blogs up in general/dota/starcraft sections too and only show general blogs on all sites.
It would be great if Teamliquid.net, LiquidHearth and LiquidDota shared some of the non-game-specific parts of the forums like the 'General' Forum. After all it's still one big community in some way and whats the point in having three SFW Random Pics Threads?
Don't want to sound like a conspiracy guy but for some odd reason LoL streams started appearing (even tho it has been filtered off since the day filters got introduced).
Oh well, I started watching the TI 4 qualifiers trough twitch because of this change, don't think I'l be coming back to TL nearly as often as I used to, all of this just seems both shitty and shady at the same time. I know that it's probably just me but all of this left a really bad taste in my mouth and I have plenty of alternatives so TL has pretty much lost my clicks from now on.
On May 13 2014 15:57 LastDance wrote: Thank god. I might actually start visiting TL again. The mix of Dota 2 content with the Starcraft content really, really put me off this site. It made me feel like you guys didn't care about StarCraft anymore. These days I've been going to reddit for my starcraft fix.
I'm disappointed it took this long to make this move.
It really boggles my mind how people equate TL developing an entirely new site for Dota with a new design and great features to TL being paid off by Riot.
On May 14 2014 05:28 Firebolt145 wrote: It really boggles my mind how people equate TL developing an entirely new site for Dota with a new design and great features to TL being paid off by Riot.
On May 14 2014 05:28 Firebolt145 wrote: It really boggles my mind how people equate TL developing an entirely new site for Dota with a new design and great features to TL being paid off by Riot.
I feel the same way, and also greatly amused at how absurd that sounds.
On another note, while I really miss my aggragated stream list I will grant you that the layout and new dota2 site in general is pretty amazing. Some good work went into this.
On May 14 2014 05:28 Firebolt145 wrote: It really boggles my mind how people equate TL developing an entirely new site for Dota with a new design and great features to TL being paid off by Riot.
but did you know steel doesnt melt at temperatures this low
On May 14 2014 05:28 Firebolt145 wrote: It really boggles my mind how people equate TL developing an entirely new site for Dota with a new design and great features to TL being paid off by Riot.
Thats EXACTLY what someone who's been paid off by Riot would say! Coincidence? I think not!
Open your eyes sheeple! The answer is right in front of..ok, I can't do it. Just writing a parody of conspiracy theorists makes me queezy..
Hey can somebody explain what happened to teamliquid.net? I know longer can have dota on this site in the way of streams, news and calendar for example. Dota2 is not even in the filter options button thing where I have broodwar turned off for example. I also have league streams which I don't care about. Did this change occur today? I remember before I went to class this morning that the site looked as it always has.
I care because I find it really convenient and easy to check both my starcraft and dota2 steams and calendars quickly with just one site. I would be really bummed if the addition of liquiddota meant losing out on this.
I browsed this site (and participated from time to time) for 6 years, keeping up on BW, and then keeping up on Dota 2 when it was here. These days I don't keep up with BW as often so I mostly came here for the Dota 2 content, but also enjoyed browsing some of the other forums still.
Now that I have to go to a separate site to see all the Dota 2 content, I don't think I have enough of a reason to come here anymore. 6 years habitually going here and now there's no reason anymore. See ya I guess.
I was also skeptical about these changes, but did not comment on it until I saw how they would go about it. I personally feel that the change was needed, as the whole site started to feel awkwardly crowded with content that did not really belonged together. I watch lots of Starcraft and mostly only play Dota and only occasionally watch some of it, so mostly the dota news were kind of alienating. After this re-vamp it really feels like the TL like a couple of years ago again, and I really like it, I have to say !
There is one tweek I would like to propose. Since I still would like to follow the Dota 2 scence once in a while, it would be nice if the links on the top right which lead you to the different TL "clones" would be bigger and maybe formatted differently, like using tabs in the browser. Often you check TL, read what you wanted to read and then switch.
You already could filter your account for news and such things. I never did so I don't know how "far" you can go with that. But why not make different websites with a presetting for a particular game!?
I mean: Have it like this new DotA website, that you have all the news and articles and threads very prominent on the sides and focus "purely" on the "portal-game". But have all the non-game related stuff like "Community", "Sports", ... globally over all different websites! So if you post something on teamliquid.net in the Community section you can also read that in the Community section of liquiddota.com! So we can all use a portal to our main game likings (may it be DotA, SC, SSBM or Hearthstone. You could even do a LoL version) and get all the news we want but still be together in all the other aspects of TL! And maybe "banish" all the "other" games the same way under some new category on the bottom of the forums. So if my main interests are in SC, but like DotA a little bit too, I could use the SC-portal and if I want to know something of DotA, I just look in the "hidden" forums what's happening there without changing the website!
Maybe this is stupid, because I "propose" that you basically have the same website 3(+) times only with a different layout and focused on a game! But to me, that sounds quite like an idea and would love to be able to browse <whatever>liquid.net and be part of all!
I actually liked it better when all the events, forums and such were listed in one place, here. Now I have to visit yet another website to keep up with all the forum threads, as well as all the tournaments and streams that I want to watch
I kinda understand why you want to split things up, but I don't like it. Guess I'll just have to accept it.
I had fallen out of SC2 recently especially on account of how much zerg there was in the GSL recently. I still came back because it was easy to get a quick glance at information. My ears perked up as I knew International was coming and now I actually missed some qualifiers.
Maybe I'll get used to them separate but more likely, you'd just lose another visitor all together.
I'm here for SC2 and LoL content (really, there has been some nice content in regards to LoL posted by the TL community. It is a shame that TL is biased for Dota2) and I am completely fine by this change. The Dota 2 news was mostly unnecessary noise for me.
While I occasionally browsed some threads and posted in them, it's not enough of a reason to visit a completely separate website. Therefore, it's a bad decision.
Well, this is the first time I've come on TL since the intro of liquiddota. 11 years of browsing the general forums, it's been pretty much my go-to place for news discussions or talking about the latest episodes of my favourite shows etc. Or catching the odd sc2 tournament, for that matter, even though I haven't kept up that much in the last year or so.
If I could propose one change it would be to keep the non-game related forums shared between the sites.
edit:
On the subject of having shared General/Community sub-forums: It's been brought up earlier in this thread, and it was brought up in the staff forums as well. I think the response was generally positive, though there are technical quirks to work out before it can happen. I think it is going to happen eventually though, provided the technical issues can be solved.
Disliking the change, as someone who visits not only the dota forums but also the community, other games and blogs sections.
Another thing: The color contrast between the top bar (blue) and the text space (white/grey) is too strong and a lot harder to read than in the normal TL forums. A lighter blue would be better suited imo.
I hate this change... Very very much, I follow both plus I really like the General threads for Teamliquid, Have to have two sites opened tabbing between is a bit of a hassle. Wish there was an option for things to stay the same
EPT
(((
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OsdJe48.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ne4t0YY.png)
Im bit drama queen, I know 
