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Hey guys,
I'm writing this blog because there are a lot of thoughts I want to share with you about creating a new Dota site. This didn't happen overnight and it is something that has been discussed thoroughly. I have read all of your feedback as I always do. I've been doing this for twelve years now and being open to user feedback seriously is the main reason why we have gotten to where we are. Seeing such a negative response from the community that I've spent the last decade of my life on does have a big impact. I'll explain in more detail why we feel LiquidDota is necessary.
The goal of the design of TL
TL displays an enormous amount of information and it has always done so. Regular websites can't get away with showing this much information as it is generally overwhelming for the visitor. We manage because we attract a certain type of individuals that want to know in depth what is going on in the scene. They want to know who is streaming, which events are on, what news came out today, and how to find anything they need on Liquipedia.
This is how we like it. When you are visiting TL for a single game there's a lot of information but it isn't too much for our target audience. That's the way TL always felt when we did BW and it felt like that for a long time when we did SC2. I believe this is still the case for a single game and although there are always things to improve it is something that works. Our entry barrier was always high but it hit a spot that was good. Just high enough to get people we like and who like what we do.
However high our barrier of entry used to be, with Dota it took a turn for the worse. With our extreme amount of information about a single game we were still able to appeal to the group we wanted to attract. When we added Dota TL suddenly became way harder to use for a non-regular with an interest in a single game. Due to the messiness of our presentation we have far passed the point of entry barrier that we used to have. Not only do you need to want to know everything about a game, you also need to deal with half of the site not being the game you like.
TL as a community site
I follow a ton of sports and for almost all of them I use standalone websites. I want to read about football, bicycle racing, StarCraft and Dota, and MMA. I do not visit any site that presents sports I don't follow, so I only visit websites dedicated to each sport.
The more dedicated a site is to the game you love the more it will feel like home to you. If Gosugamers coverage in 2008 had been better, would you really have chosen them over TL, or would the fact that it wasn't a dedicated site have made you come to TL and our community feel? The more games a site tries to cover the harder it will be to establish the same kind of relationship. Even if we are delivering what we believe to be the best quality it is still very hard to compete with dedicated websites. The feel of a dedicated website is incredibly important. We should know, as it has played such an important part in the growth of TL.
Something like this is not necessarily a conscious choice. A user may be completely fine with our addition of Dota. Yet when it comes down to it over time he starts to prefer the SC reddit over TL because half of what he sees here are names, terms, sentences and images he does not understand.
Imagine yourself not a TL veteran but a Dota fan out there in the scene. When visiting TL you see an overwhelming amount of information largely not about Dota. You have no idea how to filter it and eventually just don't feel like this is a home for you. Originally we thought that with our filter system we would be able to attract new Dota fans and have them be a part of our Dota community. Unfortunately, we have come to the realization that the filter system is only used by people experienced with the way TL works.
TL has always been an evolving community where people with a shared interest could come together. With Dota there is no development and we're basically stuck for the wrong reasons. If you are unhappy about LiquidDota odds are that you are a TL veteran. I completely understand that someone who visits TL for both SC2 and Dota 2 is going to find the change inconvenient. Going from one site where you feel at home in the community to two sites with one where you don't is a big deal. If you tell me that you're not a fan of it because you now have to visit two sites I'm with you on that.
I want to ask you to look at it from another perspective. TL used to be a family open to anyone. In our BW and SC2 days people felt like they could come over and feel at home. New users and old users alike. That is what gave TL the feel that it has today. The way TL is currently set up is near impossible to get into for anyone from the outside. That is not how TL used to be and it is not how TL should be. With the new Dota site we create two families that are open to anyone and I completely stand by the belief that it is a better approach to taking care of communities.
Feedback
As mentioned I have read your feedback and I also can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction. A midst all this there is a lot of useful feedback that we take very seriously. The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
The second main complaint was that it was so convenient to have a calendar supporting multiple esports. This is something I have been thinking about a lot since yesterday. It's really nothing more than just a thought right now but in the future I would like to try and build an in depth calendar that covers the calendar inputs from our sites that everyone would be able to customize it as they wish. It's just an idea for now, but I'm hoping to make it a reality some day.
StarCraft
Going forward we're going to make TL a dedicated hub for StarCraft again. In the next couple of days we will be making changes to the forum and filter structures to resemble this. Accordingly we'll be making changes to the forum structure and streaming section. Again this will be a change that may not be popular with the entire community as it will also mean that the LoL forums will go into "Other Games" and the LoL streams won't be showing up anymore as default.
Future
How we envision TL is that we want it to be a StarCraft community where anyone can do anything they want as long as there is support for it from other users. EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways. These sections will have the potential to grow and if they outgrow their place on TL like Hearthstone did then we would consider moving it to its own place. As for LiquidDota the site is really, really good and I hope you give it a shot.
 
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I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
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Give me an events calendar with starcraft 2, dota 2, AND CS:GO and I'll be happy 
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If by "calendar" you also include streams, then yes, please do this. I really valued the customizible aggregated stream list that TL provided. I think that the number of unregistered users (that you are concerned with) that visit your site and use the community forums are FAR less then the ones that just want the stream list.
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On May 12 2014 23:10 WhizPower wrote:
I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
TL and our StarCraft community site is larger than the others and so there will be a more varied interest it has nothing to do with how much focus there is. Same thing could happen for the other sites if they were big enough, except that we're already going to try and have shared community forums which will equal this anyways.
On May 12 2014 23:17 StarMoon wrote:
If by "calendar" you also include streams, then yes, please do this. I really valued the customizible aggregated stream list that TL provided. I think that the number of unregistered users (that you are concerned with) that visit your site and use the community forums are FAR less then the ones that just want the stream list.
I have something like that in mind, but the idea is pretty raw still.
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Thanks for your thoughts, even as an almost Stacraft only guy I was not a friend of this change. But a shared community section and calendar would go a long way, thanks for taking the feedback into account and I hope it goes well and is a success for you!
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On May 12 2014 23:10 WhizPower wrote:
I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
You can also see it as 'starcraft has a place on the main site'.
It's not per se that one of them is true, it's just that thinking one site (or another) is favoured is pretty arbitrary at this point.
edit: oh, didnt see nazgul's response, sorry.
Thanks for the clarification. My main concern was the community part, and as that is addressed, i don't have anything else against it. I really hope shared sections will be realised fairly soon. Good luck on implementing it 
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Shared community forums as you mentioned would remove my need to visit TL.net. Currently I'll be using both pages as I visit tech support, some media/entertainment, and blogs here as well as Dota content on the alternate site.
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5003 Posts
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
Definitely! I tried to address these points in my post already, but we're going to try and make it happen. Only thing I'm not sure about is Blogs but it is worth considering.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
As mentioned I have read your feedback and I also can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction. A midst all this there is a lot of useful feedback that we take very seriously. The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
When you answered me on the other thread I got the idea you were going to this, it makes me VERY happy, as it was my only concern about the whole thing
R1CH is R1CH, it will work out.
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On May 12 2014 23:41 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact? Definitely! I tried to address these points in my post already, but we're going to try and make it happen. Only thing I'm not sure about is Blogs but it is worth considering.
Nazgul I appreciate your thoughts and the fact that you decided to do this for the growth and betterment of each game and community. Thank you sir!
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I too would love shared community forums. I'm using the football threads alot and love reading blogs over here. Problem isn't even to have 2 tabs opened at once but 2 versions of teamliquid that both look different.
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
Exactly this.
Now I have to check LiquidDota for my Dota news, and then go back to TL to read all the other threads I follow (Game of thrones, world cup, blogs, ...)
The 'positives' of having the new site do not outweigh this 'negative' for me.
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On May 12 2014 23:55 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
Exactly this. Now I have to check LiquidDota for my Dota news, and then go back to TL to read all the other threads I follow (Game of thrones, world cup, blogs, ...) The 'positives' of having the new site do not outweigh this 'negative' for me.
This is really my only complaint, and it seems it will get fixed so yay :D
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
This is my main concern. I've stoppped visiting LiquidHearth altogether when I got tired of the game because it's not TL. A lot of people are introduced to TL by having a competetive interest in a game and when that interest ceizes to be they stay because TL is a nice community. It feels like you're underestimating the position that TL has as a stable hub for competetive gamers in a scene that keeps migrating to new games.
I discovered TLgoogling professional BW. From there I got into Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Hearthstone and recently Melee. If TL was a mere Starcraft site I wouldn't have gotten into those games and TL would currently be a pretty deserted place. It's the fact that you can move onto new games while remaining in the same community that gives TL lasting appeal (at least to me) and it's what keeps it alive and growing where other game specific communities die off. In the short term it might be easier to attract new people to an exclusive Dota 2 site, but it's also easier to lose them because they have no attachment to Liquid as a whole.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This didn't happen overnight and it is something that has been discussed thoroughly. I have read all of your feedback as I always do. I've been doing this for twelve years now and being open to user feedback seriously is the main reason why we have gotten to where we are.
Maybe you could have maybe got some feedback from the community BEFORE doing this if you spent such a long time planning it?
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I'm surprised there has been criticism. I think all the points you bring up are good arguments for why this was a good move, and I had no issues when it were announces either. Personally I care little for other games besides Starcraft 2 and have most other content removed via the options already.
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Happy about the changes since I don't know anything about Dota, nor do I care in the slightest: it was midly annoying on the "on air" events stream list ^_^
I don't get the reason of the criticism, guess they have their reasons... in any case I have full trust in your decision and in everything TL raises its holy hand upon.
Afaik, time has always proven you right, be it in the TL site re-design and so on.
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As a fan of both SC2 and DotA2 i really enjoyed having the two games in one website, especially for the streams. I was able to see what are the good SC2 and DotA2 stream online at the same time.
I really like the redesign of the website, and i applaud the move to FINALLY go responsive, but seriously this needs more work. You guys really have a lot of programming work to do, the HTML markup is outdated and clunky and i really hope that there is more that one person working on it than R1CH. His work is awesome but he doesnt look to be so much into the front end side o things and maintaining 3 huge websites + working on other projects is a lot of work for one mortal.
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