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Hey guys,
I'm writing this blog because there are a lot of thoughts I want to share with you about creating a new Dota site. This didn't happen overnight and it is something that has been discussed thoroughly. I have read all of your feedback as I always do. I've been doing this for twelve years now and being open to user feedback seriously is the main reason why we have gotten to where we are. Seeing such a negative response from the community that I've spent the last decade of my life on does have a big impact. I'll explain in more detail why we feel LiquidDota is necessary.
The goal of the design of TL
TL displays an enormous amount of information and it has always done so. Regular websites can't get away with showing this much information as it is generally overwhelming for the visitor. We manage because we attract a certain type of individuals that want to know in depth what is going on in the scene. They want to know who is streaming, which events are on, what news came out today, and how to find anything they need on Liquipedia.
This is how we like it. When you are visiting TL for a single game there's a lot of information but it isn't too much for our target audience. That's the way TL always felt when we did BW and it felt like that for a long time when we did SC2. I believe this is still the case for a single game and although there are always things to improve it is something that works. Our entry barrier was always high but it hit a spot that was good. Just high enough to get people we like and who like what we do.
However high our barrier of entry used to be, with Dota it took a turn for the worse. With our extreme amount of information about a single game we were still able to appeal to the group we wanted to attract. When we added Dota TL suddenly became way harder to use for a non-regular with an interest in a single game. Due to the messiness of our presentation we have far passed the point of entry barrier that we used to have. Not only do you need to want to know everything about a game, you also need to deal with half of the site not being the game you like.
TL as a community site
I follow a ton of sports and for almost all of them I use standalone websites. I want to read about football, bicycle racing, StarCraft and Dota, and MMA. I do not visit any site that presents sports I don't follow, so I only visit websites dedicated to each sport.
The more dedicated a site is to the game you love the more it will feel like home to you. If Gosugamers coverage in 2008 had been better, would you really have chosen them over TL, or would the fact that it wasn't a dedicated site have made you come to TL and our community feel? The more games a site tries to cover the harder it will be to establish the same kind of relationship. Even if we are delivering what we believe to be the best quality it is still very hard to compete with dedicated websites. The feel of a dedicated website is incredibly important. We should know, as it has played such an important part in the growth of TL.
Something like this is not necessarily a conscious choice. A user may be completely fine with our addition of Dota. Yet when it comes down to it over time he starts to prefer the SC reddit over TL because half of what he sees here are names, terms, sentences and images he does not understand.
Imagine yourself not a TL veteran but a Dota fan out there in the scene. When visiting TL you see an overwhelming amount of information largely not about Dota. You have no idea how to filter it and eventually just don't feel like this is a home for you. Originally we thought that with our filter system we would be able to attract new Dota fans and have them be a part of our Dota community. Unfortunately, we have come to the realization that the filter system is only used by people experienced with the way TL works.
TL has always been an evolving community where people with a shared interest could come together. With Dota there is no development and we're basically stuck for the wrong reasons. If you are unhappy about LiquidDota odds are that you are a TL veteran. I completely understand that someone who visits TL for both SC2 and Dota 2 is going to find the change inconvenient. Going from one site where you feel at home in the community to two sites with one where you don't is a big deal. If you tell me that you're not a fan of it because you now have to visit two sites I'm with you on that.
I want to ask you to look at it from another perspective. TL used to be a family open to anyone. In our BW and SC2 days people felt like they could come over and feel at home. New users and old users alike. That is what gave TL the feel that it has today. The way TL is currently set up is near impossible to get into for anyone from the outside. That is not how TL used to be and it is not how TL should be. With the new Dota site we create two families that are open to anyone and I completely stand by the belief that it is a better approach to taking care of communities.
Feedback
As mentioned I have read your feedback and I also can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction. A midst all this there is a lot of useful feedback that we take very seriously. The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
The second main complaint was that it was so convenient to have a calendar supporting multiple esports. This is something I have been thinking about a lot since yesterday. It's really nothing more than just a thought right now but in the future I would like to try and build an in depth calendar that covers the calendar inputs from our sites that everyone would be able to customize it as they wish. It's just an idea for now, but I'm hoping to make it a reality some day.
StarCraft
Going forward we're going to make TL a dedicated hub for StarCraft again. In the next couple of days we will be making changes to the forum and filter structures to resemble this. Accordingly we'll be making changes to the forum structure and streaming section. Again this will be a change that may not be popular with the entire community as it will also mean that the LoL forums will go into "Other Games" and the LoL streams won't be showing up anymore as default.
Future
How we envision TL is that we want it to be a StarCraft community where anyone can do anything they want as long as there is support for it from other users. EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways. These sections will have the potential to grow and if they outgrow their place on TL like Hearthstone did then we would consider moving it to its own place. As for LiquidDota the site is really, really good and I hope you give it a shot.
 
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I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
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Give me an events calendar with starcraft 2, dota 2, AND CS:GO and I'll be happy 
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If by "calendar" you also include streams, then yes, please do this. I really valued the customizible aggregated stream list that TL provided. I think that the number of unregistered users (that you are concerned with) that visit your site and use the community forums are FAR less then the ones that just want the stream list.
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On May 12 2014 23:10 WhizPower wrote:
I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
TL and our StarCraft community site is larger than the others and so there will be a more varied interest it has nothing to do with how much focus there is. Same thing could happen for the other sites if they were big enough, except that we're already going to try and have shared community forums which will equal this anyways.
On May 12 2014 23:17 StarMoon wrote:
If by "calendar" you also include streams, then yes, please do this. I really valued the customizible aggregated stream list that TL provided. I think that the number of unregistered users (that you are concerned with) that visit your site and use the community forums are FAR less then the ones that just want the stream list.
I have something like that in mind, but the idea is pretty raw still.
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Thanks for your thoughts, even as an almost Stacraft only guy I was not a friend of this change. But a shared community section and calendar would go a long way, thanks for taking the feedback into account and I hope it goes well and is a success for you!
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On May 12 2014 23:10 WhizPower wrote:
I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
You can also see it as 'starcraft has a place on the main site'.
It's not per se that one of them is true, it's just that thinking one site (or another) is favoured is pretty arbitrary at this point.
edit: oh, didnt see nazgul's response, sorry.
Thanks for the clarification. My main concern was the community part, and as that is addressed, i don't have anything else against it. I really hope shared sections will be realised fairly soon. Good luck on implementing it 
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Shared community forums as you mentioned would remove my need to visit TL.net. Currently I'll be using both pages as I visit tech support, some media/entertainment, and blogs here as well as Dota content on the alternate site.
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5003 Posts
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
Definitely! I tried to address these points in my post already, but we're going to try and make it happen. Only thing I'm not sure about is Blogs but it is worth considering.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
As mentioned I have read your feedback and I also can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction. A midst all this there is a lot of useful feedback that we take very seriously. The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
When you answered me on the other thread I got the idea you were going to this, it makes me VERY happy, as it was my only concern about the whole thing
R1CH is R1CH, it will work out.
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On May 12 2014 23:41 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact? Definitely! I tried to address these points in my post already, but we're going to try and make it happen. Only thing I'm not sure about is Blogs but it is worth considering.
Nazgul I appreciate your thoughts and the fact that you decided to do this for the growth and betterment of each game and community. Thank you sir!
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I too would love shared community forums. I'm using the football threads alot and love reading blogs over here. Problem isn't even to have 2 tabs opened at once but 2 versions of teamliquid that both look different.
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
Exactly this.
Now I have to check LiquidDota for my Dota news, and then go back to TL to read all the other threads I follow (Game of thrones, world cup, blogs, ...)
The 'positives' of having the new site do not outweigh this 'negative' for me.
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On May 12 2014 23:55 Laurens wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
Exactly this. Now I have to check LiquidDota for my Dota news, and then go back to TL to read all the other threads I follow (Game of thrones, world cup, blogs, ...) The 'positives' of having the new site do not outweigh this 'negative' for me.
This is really my only complaint, and it seems it will get fixed so yay :D
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On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact?
This is my main concern. I've stoppped visiting LiquidHearth altogether when I got tired of the game because it's not TL. A lot of people are introduced to TL by having a competetive interest in a game and when that interest ceizes to be they stay because TL is a nice community. It feels like you're underestimating the position that TL has as a stable hub for competetive gamers in a scene that keeps migrating to new games.
I discovered TLgoogling professional BW. From there I got into Starcraft 2, Dota 2, Hearthstone and recently Melee. If TL was a mere Starcraft site I wouldn't have gotten into those games and TL would currently be a pretty deserted place. It's the fact that you can move onto new games while remaining in the same community that gives TL lasting appeal (at least to me) and it's what keeps it alive and growing where other game specific communities die off. In the short term it might be easier to attract new people to an exclusive Dota 2 site, but it's also easier to lose them because they have no attachment to Liquid as a whole.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This didn't happen overnight and it is something that has been discussed thoroughly. I have read all of your feedback as I always do. I've been doing this for twelve years now and being open to user feedback seriously is the main reason why we have gotten to where we are.
Maybe you could have maybe got some feedback from the community BEFORE doing this if you spent such a long time planning it?
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I'm surprised there has been criticism. I think all the points you bring up are good arguments for why this was a good move, and I had no issues when it were announces either. Personally I care little for other games besides Starcraft 2 and have most other content removed via the options already.
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Happy about the changes since I don't know anything about Dota, nor do I care in the slightest: it was midly annoying on the "on air" events stream list ^_^
I don't get the reason of the criticism, guess they have their reasons... in any case I have full trust in your decision and in everything TL raises its holy hand upon.
Afaik, time has always proven you right, be it in the TL site re-design and so on.
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As a fan of both SC2 and DotA2 i really enjoyed having the two games in one website, especially for the streams. I was able to see what are the good SC2 and DotA2 stream online at the same time.
I really like the redesign of the website, and i applaud the move to FINALLY go responsive, but seriously this needs more work. You guys really have a lot of programming work to do, the HTML markup is outdated and clunky and i really hope that there is more that one person working on it than R1CH. His work is awesome but he doesnt look to be so much into the front end side o things and maintaining 3 huge websites + working on other projects is a lot of work for one mortal.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
CSS powers for LR Threads plz
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I fully understand your argument, this is undoubtly better and easier for new users. However as an older user who knows how to navigate TL I really liked I could just casually follow LoL and DotA by checking the sidebar every now and then. Sure, I can still do that now, it just rerquiers a click more.
I think shared forums for every section that isn't game related it a must tough. It really feels like a split.
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On May 13 2014 00:13 MVTaylor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
This didn't happen overnight and it is something that has been discussed thoroughly. I have read all of your feedback as I always do. I've been doing this for twelve years now and being open to user feedback seriously is the main reason why we have gotten to where we are. Maybe you could have maybe got some feedback from the community BEFORE doing this if you spent such a long time planning it?
You make it sound like it is a no brainer but community feedback is obviously a very complex issue that shouldn't be trivialized like that. As much as we go by community feedback it's not reasonable to expect community feedback to work in every case. When it comes to major issues that would require heavy adjustment in behavior the answer is always going to be never change.
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On May 12 2014 23:10 WhizPower wrote:
I don't care too much either way, but it just seems a bit weird. Now there's a site for Hearthstone, one for Dota, and one for StarCraft + other games. So in the end SC2 gets less focus than Hearthstone and Dota in a way.
Starcraft content on TL is so much more than anyone could digest. As a mainly sc audience, you should be happy that aside from sc2 content, you still got to enjoy great Community/Blogs/Other Games sections, something that LiquidHearth/Dota havent got (or is a few clicks away)
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I'm happy the way it is but maybe because I don't go in depth with the news anymore I'm just satisfied that I am being informed on who won who/what each time I enter TL. I mainly visit TL for Broodwar and follow some players on SC2 and even some LoL but I have to admit sometimes I get lost on just how many forum sections TL has and it's not really the most organized. The filter helps but I think if TL has better filter options on each games like gg.net has then there would be no need for a dota 2 standalone website. Just my thoughts.
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If the community forums are shared, then it will be really good tbh. It's still a nuisance for people like me that still follow a bit of sc2 even though their main game is dota but I think the advantages will outweight the disadvantage. I was originally very against the idea, but after using a bit of LiquidDota, it's a strong site and it feels more complete, more features and such. I will get used to it I guess
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For the love of god, All we needed was a separate LoL website. liquiddon'tgiveashit.net
Why did you take the games I cared about and made different websites
I loved reading about dota tournaments on the side
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I just want SC tl has some update to the site too, love the colorful small icons for heartstone users
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Feedback
As mentioned I have read your feedback and I also can see that there is a lot of dissatisfaction. A midst all this there is a lot of useful feedback that we take very seriously. The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
The second main complaint was that it was so convenient to have a calendar supporting multiple esports. This is something I have been thinking about a lot since yesterday. It's really nothing more than just a thought right now but in the future I would like to try and build an in depth calendar that covers the calendar inputs from our sites that everyone would be able to customize it as they wish. It's just an idea for now, but I'm hoping to make it a reality some day.
This is wonderful news! Just what I was hoping for! I was thinking it would also be cool if there was some kind of way we could "Opt in" to seeing the forums, calendar events, blogs, etc from the hearthstone and dota sites kind of like the way filtering works now, and of course such functionality could be implemented for the dota and hearthstone sites as well.
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The reasoning makes sense.
Different portals for each game will indeed most likely increase the growth of TL for the reasons mentioned and if I was making decisions I would probably make the same one.
However as somebody who has been using TL for a few years with a strong interest in Starcraft and gained a minor interest in Dota due to TL It's a little disappointing to see the community split up like this. My interest in dota will probably go the same way my interest in Hearthstone did once LiquidHearth was created.
The sharing of community forums would help lessen the sadness of familiar names disappearing but I'll miss just spending time browsing the interesting thread titles I see on the sidebar regardless of which game they happen to be part of.
It's not a bad decision, it just comes at a small price for users like myself.
Edit: I should mention I really like the look of the new site.
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I actually really like the new DotA website---it's sleek, it's layout is familiar, and I can choose whichever hero I want as my portrait.
I do feel like making the links to LiquidHearth and LiquidDota a larger part of the TL website would be a big improvement. Just because TL is the Starcraft site doesn't mean that the doors to DotA and Hearthstone should be relegated to a tiny little link in the top-right corner. I imagine that, as a newcomer to the site in 3 months when "Introducing LiquidDota" is no longer a headline, I could easily miss those links completely, which seems unfortunate since I'd be missing out on a large part of the TL community.
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I was a little bit skeptical about the split, but since TeamLiquid is my favourite site on the web and I've always approciated both the direction it took and those who made the decisions, I have full confidence that we'll be seeing great improvements.
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Well..You've probably just destroyed the feature that made Liquid so great. I've always been a great fan of the Liquid teams and the only reason I got into Dota after I lost interest in SC was the shared website. If it wasn't for that I would have stopped following games for a long site. Even now I am reluctant to add another tab to my standard browser so this probably means Starcraft just completely died for me (like Hearthstone did).
And then once Dota is not a thing anymore you successfully lost me as a TL user. And I'm pretty sure you will then lose the majority of Dota users. Yes short term thinking a great plan. In the long run the worst you could ever do.
(And I know cause the only reason I stopped following Hearthstone was the split. I enjoy Hearthstone content a lot but the inconvenience of having to open just another site was too big. And now I will delete TL.net and replace it with LiquidDota.)
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 13 2014 01:29 bNoLuck wrote:
Well..You've probably just destroyed the feature that made Liquid so great. I've always been a great fan of the Liquid teams and the only reason I got into Dota after I lost interest in SC was the shared website. If it wasn't for that I would have stopped following games for a long site. Even now I am reluctant to add another tab to my standard browser so this probably means Starcraft just completely died for me (like Hearthstone did).
And then once Dota is not a thing anymore you successfully lost me as a TL user. And I'm pretty sure you will then lose the majority of Dota users. Yes short term thinking a great plan. In the long run the worst you could ever do.
(And I know cause the only reason I stopped following Hearthstone was the split. I enjoy Hearthstone content a lot but the inconvenience of having to open just another site was too big. And now I will delete TL.net and replace it with LiquidDota.)
The idea is to build a site focused on Dota that can deliver Dota-centered content on a site tailored for Dota, and build unique community around that site. I don't think any one ever thought that the people going to use Liquiddota will all keep frequenting Teamliquid, but there was definitely a hope that by separating Dota from TL, a larger and more complete source of Dota news and resources + community could be created. That's what Liquiddota is for. The three communities (TL, LD, LH) can develop their own communities at their own pace and grow with their respective set of unique functions, and that is more than could ever happen on TL alone.
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I got into Dota 2 from Starcraft because of TL's coverage of it. I'm one of the few who enjoyed having a condensed setting in which to view both dota and starcraft, but I gotta say I do like the new site. It's not that big a deal to click a new bookmark for me.
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its annoying to go to liquiddota cause of habit going to TL but the calendar is amazing for the international viewing
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Thanks for this, Nazgul. My low post count doesn't indicate my appreciation for the site (I lurk an awful lot) and one of the best things about TL is that the admins/leadership respect and solicit feedback. That said, even with this, I'm still very sad about this change.
Note that I don't really "disagree" with it -- it's your site, and you can decide what it needs most, and you and the others have more data over what works and and what doesn't -- I'm just a bystander. But for me, this is still sad because TL isn't about the specific games, it's about this community. I love StarCraft, have invested thousands of hours into it, but I don't come here because I need my "StarCraft fix," I come here because I love TL's preparation of my StarCraft fix.
Consider the competitors: remember when WellPlayed.org was aiming for the StarCraft audience? Or when Catz and others tried pushing for more active ROOT forums? Many, many people have tried to imitate TL (often with very prettier faces) but there's a reason few of them could ever produce work like this: it's not the technical features of the site or the fact that they were game-specific or not, it's the people behind it.
My sadness with this change is that I feel it fragments us, and prevents cross-pollination. The only reason I follow Dota is because Liquid acquired a team, listed the streams, and put the forums here. Now, I'm an avid follower! Much of the reason I picked it up wasn't bandwagoning or fanboyism: after years of loving the work that's happened here, my brain was saying if TL is into it, there must really be something special there. Articles like the small primer on Dota 2 strategy were critical. If it happened in a silo-ed site, I doubt I would have read it.
If you got this far and said "boy, I'd like to read ANOTHER wall of text," you can see this great exhange between Jeff Atwood, who's trying to write new forum software (Discourse) and members of the Something Awful community. He asks for their advice on what technical things he can do to encourage great online discourse, from people who have done it, and he's very stubborn against what is one of their prevailing themes: the magic of SA isn't it's technical decisions, it's people, and often ones who fight through lowest-common-denominator appeal to get to something good after a bit of work. That many of the issues Atwood has with the forum's targetedness/generality are largely self-regulating, and trying to hard to guide the discussion with technical choices (like upvotes, reputation systems, separating forums by design etc.) lead to "gamed" environments like Reddit, where good-enough things can flourish but great things rarely can. tl;dr here.
I understand you'd probably agree with everything I've written on the magic of TL's community. And I have no reason to doubt that the interface of TL is everything you say it is to new users. I guess I wish the goal was to favor the slow growth TL has had and preserve it's self-regulating nature (I figured out filters for games I don't care about, like LoL and, until it split, Hearthstone. no doubt others can) than to optimize for new users who can't be bothered, and become a set of MY ONE GAME HERE sites.
Aside from fragmentation, this change also suggests the reason I come here, and that someone should love coming here, is for Game X or Game Y. TL isn't great because of the games it covers, it's great because great people cover games passionately. Because great people moderate effectively. For me, it's about the music, not the instruments. Certainly for a number of people, the sites they visit are about the instruments. But like you demonstrated when you wrote "A Word on Smash", this is a place that "gets" why games can be so amazing. Fragmentation based on the choice of game alone seems counter to that.
In any case, will continue to support. Thanks, as always :D
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I like the change. The combined steam list was nice, but I think most people who aren't trying to watch a specific steam will look at twitch, which does a great job showing good streams across a range of games
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I agree wholeheartedly with the Liquid'Holding decision, it doesnt phase me much, but I would have taken the same step. Also
1* Please add a link to liquiddota on topright of liquidhearth
2* Why is it liquiddota.com and not .net?
3* Possibly make the shared login work on TL as well (let me loggin with shared account , when I already signed in on LH and LD)
keep up the good work
really like the looks of the site
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If we accept the premise that TL vets are the only ones who don't like the change, and we accept the premise that TL vets are the only ones to use the sidebar, it seems like the answer is to allow for a dota section of the sidebar that links to liquiddota that is turned off by default (like how liquid team news links to teamliquidpro).
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I welcome the changes made.
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I'm going to copy something I wrote in the liquid dota thread here, it's something I don't get:
But the things you are willing to do away with for this new system are the exact things that differentiated TL from the competition. I don't understand why you would trade the things that made you special for the upsides of being like everyone else...
You're just going to fade into the background of every other dota site, and there are a TON of them and they are all the same. You're also destroying the cross-pollination that comes from covering multiple games on one site. I know I was getting into smash when you started covering it, but I doubt I will now that I will be on the dota site the majority of the time...
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I really appreciate this post, it means a lot. I really think that the shared community forums is the biggest thing, and will make an absolute world of difference to a lot of veterans views, so I really look forward to that !
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TeamLiquid was unique with the previous format, now it loses some (a lot?) of that. I really appreciated the fact that there was a lot of different games being covered in one place with a focus on competitive gaming. I will still be a user of both sites most likely but I could easily see myself spending most of the time on the Dota site and at some point basically forgetting about TL.
It sounds to me like there was mostly a web design / organizational / interface issue with TL... why not simply have "filters" on the top that excludes games you don't want to see? Why did it necessitate a fragmented community?
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Kill TLLoL and i kill you.
Other then that, have a nice day
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5/5! Great job addressing this topic! My viewpoint has changed so much regarding this in the last 24 hours (for the better).
Out of all the negativity, I'm truly happy that you guys were able to sort through what the users were complained about, and find the best solutions. I think the community forums is by far the biggest thing (like many others), and I thing the next big thing is have some complete calendar/stream list for all the games that teamliquid and sister sites cover.
I think if that is done, there is essentially no reason for people to complain, and then all that is required is waiting... Just so people give the other site a try and realize for themselves that the change is for the better.
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Let's be frank, this is about new users more than current regulars. That's fine and I understand that that's important for a website to further grow but some of the premises and concepts you're listening as reasonings are incredibly weak. Here's why.
If Gosugamers coverage in 2008 had been better, would you really have chosen them over TL, or would the fact that it wasn't a dedicated site have made you come to TL and our community feel?
People come for the content and stay for the community. Once they stay for that the content matters a lot less. Personally, and I imagine most TLers are similar, I don't even know how good gg.net coverage is for example. Why? Because TL.net content is good enough that I don't care about it. If you feel at home anywhere - whether in your regular life or your virtual life - you don't have the desire to change that. The goal should be to offer that feeling of "home" to as many people as possible. As many streamers or youtube channels know the amount of views you get doesn't say whether you're doing a great job or not - the amount of subscribers, of regulars does.
The Liquidhearth blogs are a perfect example of what kind of "community" a cut like this is encouraging. I can't imagine that this is what the TL administration loves to see, especially with a perfect example right there.
You have no idea how to filter it and eventually just don't feel like this is a home for you. Originally we thought that with our filter system we would be able to attract new Dota fans and have them be a part of our Dota community. Unfortunately, we have come to the realization that the filter system is only used by people experienced with the way TL works.
Let's assume we run a gigantic store for a moment. We started noticing that people start getting impatient before even finding the product they desire and they end up leaving without buying anything. We now introduce a system which shows the shortest route to anything they want to combat this situation, people only have to type in what they want and the display at the bottom of their shopping cart will show an 8 bit arrow pointing towards it.
For some reason this doesn't really change the behaviour of our customers and we decide to break our huge store down and start building multiple small ones in the nearby area to fix the problem.
The reason new people don't use the filter system properly is because it sucks. Not the idea, but the implementation. Plain and simple. If, as a random unrealistic example, we would have huge buttons instead of the teamliquid.net banner every single new user would instantly see what's going on and use it.
I am not a programmer but in all honesty I can't see an issue with having a domain (e.g. liquiddota.com) that points to another domain (teamliquid.net) and activates all filters for dota 2 at the same time. Solved. Every new user that comes to TL via liquiddota.com gets a dota 2 only view of the site. He then has the option to add and or modify that view after he decided he likes what the site offers. Done.
There is zero reason to use badly implemented filters as an excuse for a "solution" that's completely blown out of proportion in comparison.
I want to ask you to look at it from another perspective. TL used to be a family open to anyone. In our BW and SC2 days people felt like they could come over and feel at home. New users and old users alike. That is what gave TL the feel that it has today. The way TL is currently set up is near impossible to get into for anyone from the outside. That is not how TL used to be and it is not how TL should be. With the new Dota site we create two families that are open to anyone and I completely stand by the belief that it is a better approach to taking care of communities.
Time for anecdotal evidence? I started lurking TL in 2003-2004. The main reason it took me so long to make an account (and it took me even longer to post regularly despite being highly into BW) was because teamliquid was scary. There were very few people with moderating powers, the quality of content was high and compared to today I feel as if you could get away with a lot less shitposting. Over time and especially with the growth after SC2 the quality of posts you could get away with gradually decreased.
The image TL used to give me as a new user back then was one of "THIS IS OUR HOUSE" and I was given the choice to play by the rules set by people around longer than me or gtfo. That's what made teamliquid great. It's impossible to get into TL nowadays? Look at the amount of people registered 2010 and onwards (most of which who came with the SC2 hype) and look how they integrated, became contributors and staff members. Look at how lots and lots of these users argue in these very threads about a change the majority of them seems to highly dislike. Sure a new users will be intimidated by talking back at people with 5000 posts here and there but he should be. That's one of the fundamental rules of TL that keeps the quality of its content up and if I remember correctly a new user who doesn't care about that isn't welcome in the first place.
The main point that we saw kept coming back is the sharing of community forums across sites. Previously we have been on the fence about this, in part due to technical difficulties, and after reading your feedback we're going to make it a priority to have shared community forums across all sites.
Technical difficulties? Again, I am not a programmer, but why was it seemingly easy to add the Dota 2 subforums (integrated with all the customization features TL had to offer) but now it seems like a challenge to add a couple more Dota 2 related subforums and integrate them just the same?
In that light it seems like an excuse. It's fine if the stance is "It's a new site because we wanted it to be a new site that's not integrated" but it's not alright to explain it as a technical difficulty when every single user here, new and old, has seen new subforums implemented just fine.
The second main complaint was that it was so convenient to have a calendar supporting multiple esports. This is something I have been thinking about a lot since yesterday. It's really nothing more than just a thought right now but in the future I would like to try and build an in depth calendar that covers the calendar inputs from our sites that everyone would be able to customize it as they wish. It's just an idea for now, but I'm hoping to make it a reality some day.
Again. Filters, filters, filters. Unregistered user coming via LHearth sees only HStone events. Unregistered user coming via LDota sees only Dota 2 events. Unregistered user via tl.net sees all events with filter buttons in reach. Registered user via any site can customize whatever he wants. Done. It's literally that easy from a design perspective.
One last time: I am not a programmer, but from my amateur perspective the only reason this can be a challenge would be if the databases of the TL-franchise sites were deliberately kept separate with the intent to not integrate them into the main site. Even if I assume this was done for performance reasons it really doesn't seem incredibly hard to share certain things across all franchises.
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Hey r.Evo, I was negative initially as well, probably the largest proponent of negativity in the announcement thread, but:
1) Your store example is incorrect. There is such a thing as stores being too big, and that's why you have stores specialize in what they do. There's a reason Home Depot doesn't sell fruit. Teamliquid can either be a Walmart where they don't sell quality product, or they can be a specialty store that is getting really big filling with new stock, and it just becomes too much to handle. Think of any hobby store, they are generally very specific, and very well versed on what they do. You'd rather go to the specialty store rather than go to help in a general store. Maybe a weird analogy, but I hope it sort of makes sense.
2) I started reading teamliquid in 2007, so not as early as you, but I think the quality has been pretty similar to what it is today. Actually, I might even argue that more was allowed then, especially for senior members. Of course when SC2 beta came out, teamliquid become more lenient - for a while! With such a high influx of users, giving them some time to adjust and slowly weeding the bad ones out simply seems like the best idea. In my eyes that was necessary to keep teamliquid a premier Starcraft community, and leader in reputability. Teamliquid is tightening that noose, and not being as easygoing on bullshit as it used to be two years back. Look how little balance whine there is relative to the beginning of SC2.
3) It's not just "creating community forums", what is attempted is syncing two forums from two different sites that you two different data bases. Meaning some people would have a Dota 2 icon, and some would have a SC2 icon... I know a little about computer science, and this doesn't seem like something extremely easy to do. I'm not sure exactly how complex it is, but it's completely fair that they were struggling with it. Remember, programmers, especially good programmers, cost money... And I believe the only programmer they really pay is R1CH, there is only so much you can do with volunteer staff with such big projects and obligations, especially for a profession that would make good money doing it elsewhere.
4) I see what you're saying, but I think having filters doesn't allow you to to have true freedom with all of your features. For example, what icons will be used for users if you only filter? I think the complexity is quite high for the users, and the other big things is how the site gets recognized. LiquidDota is Dota, and everyone will know that, but if someone tells you to go to teamliquid, and they have 10 games they cover in great depth, it'll be hard to navigate everything. Essentially giving Dota its own site will make people feel more at home, will allow more of their features to be implemented, etc.
How exactly does this site existing hurt you, considering the community forums and international calendar gets implemented? I just think you should try having a more positive outlook. Believe me, I was impulsively complaining to everyone in that thread, I was calling out staff members and such... I took a breather, and I am seeing the positives now.
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nazgul what do you have against LoL
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On May 13 2014 03:25 FiWiFaKi wrote:How exactly does this site existing hurt you, considering the community forums and international calendar gets implemented? I just think you should try having a more positive outlook. Believe me, I was impulsively complaining to everyone in that thread, I was calling out staff members and such... I took a breather, and I am seeing the positives now.
It seems really weird to me that this was implemented without the community forums or calendar. Those two pieces are rather vital and a deal breaker when it comes to splitting. I wonder there's features are even coming in the near future. If they are then why has the site been pushed through incomplete.
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On May 13 2014 00:22 MavivaM wrote:
Happy about the changes since I don't know anything about Dota, nor do I care in the slightest: it was midly annoying on the "on air" events stream list ^_^
I don't get the reason of the criticism, guess they have their reasons... in any case I have full trust in your decision and in everything TL raises its holy hand upon.
Afaik, time has always proven you right, be it in the TL site re-design and so on.
This is a prime example of someone that didn't understand the site customisation options.
I would love a shared calendar and community forums. that would ameliorate my concerns about the split. I'm glad to hear that you are considering the concerns.
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I feel the argument for all competitors being single game websites a bit odd... Maybe Germany is entirely unique, but readmore.de is everything but single game themed. And while it addresses a somehow different crowd (way more trolling, offtopic, less moderation and content) it is still somehow a huge esports hub in Germany. And again, many people on readmore are not only there for the esport... but for the community, as awful as it may seem for the outstanding person.
And even if we ignore that example... The multigaming aspect is, what made TL unique all these years. Now you may tell me, but in the BW days... I'm on TL since the BW days... And even then there was a frequent disussion about all kinds of stuff outside of BW. And it made TL so awesome. Many people have brought the Smash example, as a more recent one. Hey, I even watched some Smash streams lately, even though i have no clue about the game at all. But it was fun. Only because of TL. Otherwise I would have never done it. By sperating communities like that, you lose all such synergies. And when HS was on TL, i read all those highlighted articles, because they had some really good quality content. But would I go to Liquid hearth to read those articles? Certainly not.
Before this two splits, basically I could load TL at any daytime, and find something fun. May it be SC, Dota, HS, some blog, some stream, or an intresting offtopic thread. Will this be the case for me when I now load LD? Certainly not... I may check the site maybe for some events like TI. But it surely won't go into my usual clicking routine. And well... I have to hope, that I notice via readmore, that some interesting tournament is happening... Because while I certainly would notice it via TL before the split happened... in future i certainly won't.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If Gosugamers coverage in 2008 had been better, would you really have chosen them over TL, or would the fact that it wasn't a dedicated site have made you come to TL and our community feel?
When I saw that TL had expanded to a Dota 2 exclusive site I was initially a bit annoyed. I'm lazy and I don't want to have to open two different tabs just to browse news but... this is so true. I initially followed gosugamers initially and when things weren't clear enough I may have searched elsewhere. Now... I visit gosugamers like once a month and TL is my most frequently visited site (sorry schoolwork... ).
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some people's reasoning is beyond me. people are actually complaining that they aren't going to see content on TL anymore because they aren't going to come to TL anymore? well if you want to see content here then keep coming here?? honestly i think people are just complaining for the sake of complaining about something new, just like how any time a major site redesigns their interface or layout people flip shit for a couple of weeks and then forget how it even looked before
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On May 13 2014 03:46 Waise wrote:
some people's reasoning is beyond me. people are actually complaining that they aren't going to see content on TL anymore because they aren't going to come to TL anymore? well if you want to see content here then keep coming here?? honestly i think people are just complaining for the sake of complaining about something new, just like how any time a major site redesigns their interface or layout people flip shit for a couple of weeks and then forget how it even looked before
That's not what people are saying at all. They are saying the greater TL community is still on the TL site but now if you part of both it and TLDota there's two different places you want to be. It no longer creates a way for someone to go from a TLDota member to a TL member.
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I understand the desire to not have all the games in one forum / site. Way too much information. Sure, you could implement filters of some sort, but it takes a bigger and bigger load on the server(s).
My first thought after reading about the split though: Why a different domain? Now I can't use my custom site settings / css / javascript, and I have to login again (cookies are not preserved since it is a different domain) and I feel it is not easy for users to understand.
If instead you'd used a subdomain, like dota2.teamliquid.net, there should be no problems.
First, you could still use www.teamliquid.net as the overview site with all the data.
Second, I think this system is easier to understand (sc2.teamliquid.net for SC2 news, heartstone.teamliquid.net for heartstone stuff, etc)
Third, cookies are preserved and any custom settings I have made
Fourth, it should be possible to redirect to a different webserver based on the subdomain, so server load should be managable.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I'm pleased to hear you're so responsive to community thoughts. I think breaking away the Dota2 site was probably required given how big the site was getting, but if it's possible, combining the community aspects of the site would be awesome. I don't know how technically feasible this is but having shared blogs, general forum, etc, would imo be really good. at TL Mafia a lot of our userbase growth is driven by people who come to TL for other reasons but stop by the mafia forum because they spot it in the sidebar or whatever. The split makes it less likely we'll get new players from the dota2 community which is tough for us as a small community on TL.
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I noticed liquidhearth doesn't link back directly to liquiddota (the links at the top right). Can that get added? It's inconvenient to switch around between sites when one of them doesn't link back directly.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Glad to hear that the community forums are being given priority
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This is a great change. I want 100% Starcraft content on TL.
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We need more BW content. There are still a lot of us that follow SC:BW and there is still a decent pro-scene around.
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It seems like most of the issues that people are having with the change is the lack of some non-game-specific features not being present on both sites, so it's good to hear that efforts are being focused on bringing those into being! Otherwise, I'm completely fine with this change. Occasionally opening up another tab whenever I feel like looking over some DotA information really isn't much of a problem.
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On May 13 2014 05:44 EndingLife wrote:
We need more BW content. There are still a lot of us that follow SC:BW and there is still a decent pro-scene around.
Add content then, nobody is stopping you.
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Life > Games. Sad but true. Wish I could
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I like the idea separate front end pages and the same community backend. I like LiquidHearth a lot and like the initiative to have out early on. I can go there and see all HS related content. But for new guests and visitors they should still be able to join the community in other ways and see the Community and Other Game forums.
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I for one welcome this change. I don't follow Dota at all but I do follow Hearthstone. I thought it was a minor inconvenience when Hearthstone got its own site initially but now I've gotten used to it. So no big deal.
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On May 13 2014 05:32 NKexquisite wrote:
This is a great change. I want 100% Starcraft content on TL.
Are you incapable of using filters so you see what you want, or is this just a weird attempt at a flame?
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You should talk to the guys of Tweakers.net
Mind: Yes you should separate them.. more accesable to newcomers...
Heart: NO NO NO! I wanna I see all Dota & SC2 related news at one page! Once a fan always a fan!
Best solution...
Teamliquid shows all news... of every games that TL involvement
Liquid dota shows only dota and a "sc2" and heartstone separated website.
and a shared forum.
This way you can easily monitor which is most visited.
You might consider "tabs" and account customized website (Tweakers.net is a perfect example)
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On May 13 2014 06:21 Zealos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 05:32 NKexquisite wrote:
This is a great change. I want 100% Starcraft content on TL. Are you incapable of using filters so you see what you want, or is this just a weird attempt at a flame?
Well, to answer you honestly. Dota and LoL are lame. Also, not all content is filtered properly, so it will be nice to have content I don't see as relevant be gone so it will enhance my user experience... After all, that's the point to this change.
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On May 13 2014 02:45 Yacobs wrote:
TeamLiquid was unique with the previous format, now it loses some (a lot?) of that. I really appreciated the fact that there was a lot of different games being covered in one place with a focus on competitive gaming. I will still be a user of both sites most likely but I could easily see myself spending most of the time on the Dota site and at some point basically forgetting about TL.
It sounds to me like there was mostly a web design / organizational / interface issue with TL... why not simply have "filters" on the top that excludes games you don't want to see? Why did it necessitate a fragmented community?
The short explanation for this is that we can't make choices based on customization. Customization serves as added value for those who use it, but it can't dictate site-wide choices as the majority of our visitors simply don't use them.
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What if there were big, colorful and thematically designed buttons on the side or top of the front page where first time users can immediately filter the site by one particular game. And if it is there first time perhaps have a pop-up with a link to account creation with an explanation of all the features and content for their particular game (and other games) TL has to offer. Top it off by having an account option to change the "theme" of the site between the particular game-related themes TL has (Dota, BW, SC2, Hearth). Like 4 sites in one without the need for 4 independent communities?
While I may not play all the games, regular exposure to other game content does help increase my understanding and appreciation of it. And it may encourage more cross game support on TL.
Just my 2 cents. I know you've gotten a lot of critical feedback, but you should know overall TL is still undeniably one of the top tier gaming communities. And not because of dumb luck, but because of the hard work we know you guys do behind the scenes. It is greatly appreciated.
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I don't like the change based on Nazgul's already stated reason as I like to read about both games and two sites is simply a little more of a hassle for me, but Nazgul's openness and communication on such a basic level has already put me on his side for this decision. So I'll be keeping up with both sites, and I hope the split goes well and the technical side isn't too complicated for TL to achieve its goals.
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I really like both the sites, like the new dota looks beautiful.
What i think isnt that great is the fact that i lost all my subscribed threads in dota and in hearthstone, hearthstone was less impactful because alot of the content hadnt been out yet.
But with dota boom had to refind all the threads and just skip out on some posts and go to the latest page because i couldnt remember where i was last.
Seeing how my account is linked across all the sites eg: my username and stuff, would it be possible to have all subscribed threads in the subscried threads??? i mean i guess it isnt too much trouble to open teamliqid subscribed threads, then liquiddota subscribed threads and then liquidhearth subscribed threads, but i check them regularly basically if im on the internet im on TL and when im not working or in school on the internet lol so i check for new posts like mintue-wise.
Though with ur post to include community across the sites im wondering if this will also mean community things will appear in all subscribed threads across the branches. Which would be definitely better tho still unconvinced on the site separations i assume blogs will remain divided? 
In a perfect world i would have like TL to remain like it was before the split, BUT when u click on lets say general discussion dota in the TL sidebar it would take you to the page on liquiddota, that way i can still have all my subscribed threads in one place. People who only love dota can stay on liquiddota, and those (which is alot of users) who like multiple games still have teamliquid as their central hub.
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On May 13 2014 02:45 Capped wrote:Kill TLLoL and i kill you. Other then that, have a nice day
I didn't know u were actually taking a shit on tl lol when I posted this. Having just discovered it, I'm even more disgusted then I was when you jumped on the hearthstone train after ignoring the elephant in the room for so long. I'm really bitter about this.
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With the addition of LiquidDota and LiquidHearth, does this mean the Dota headlines will be taken off the TL front page?
inb4 filter button and settings saved when you log in.
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Guess it's a good time to be a LoL player, they can still follow that game and SC2 on the same site
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On May 13 2014 00:23 Marou wrote:
As a fan of both SC2 and DotA2 i really enjoyed having the two games in one website, especially for the streams. I was able to see what are the good SC2 and DotA2 stream online at the same time.
This, i really liked to be able to see sc2, dota2 and hearthstone streams in one place, makes it a lot easier. Now i have to navigate through multiple website/tabs.
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Canada11349 Posts
On May 13 2014 05:44 EndingLife wrote:
We need more BW content. There are still a lot of us that follow SC:BW and there is still a decent pro-scene around.
This is one of the strengths of this move, in my opinion. For SC BW, SC2, and Dota 2. When there wasn't much going on with SCBW, SC2 and Dota 2 were competing for frontpage space. Now that BW is on the upswing, three separate games competing for the front page means a lot of really quality articles get bumped out of the prime spots far too quickly.
With Liquid Dota2, their content won't be choked out by two separate SC games and for SCBW, we won't get murdered by the wave of content coming out of SC2 and Dota 2.
I understand the nuisance of visiting separate sites, but in this sense at least, I think it is better.
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While I understand the reasoning for hiding and reducing LoL subforum after breaking up DotA and Hearthstone from the main site. I can't help but feel it's a giant dick slap to the staff that constantly contibuted to the LoL section of TL. Everyone made their peace that LoL wasn't going to be officially covered, nor a team was going to be picked up. But reduction of the LoL subsection was something no one really saw coming.
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TLADT24920 Posts
hmm while the reasoning makes sense, I think the fact that the community, media, blogs and other non-specific game related subforums are not being shared is a major concern. I know people who visit TL only for the dota2 section and I've recently started getting into dota2 due to it being there. I'm not sure how much I'll be visiting liquiddota or TL after this change. Guess time will tell lol.
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Honestly Naz, I've been lurking on TL since 2008 (I actually visited a few times in 2005), followed BW religiously before deciding to register in the SC2 beta period (cause of Boxer of course), and throughout it all, the most exciting thing for me was your decision to add Dota as an official game. I've played Dota since the days of Euls, and I've long wanted a TL equivalent to what Dota-Allstars was for me. The decision to split the site is, I think, the correct one, and the most logical one, because while several fans and vets overlap, the games are really inherently different. Moreover, the absolute mess of information (and the non-use of the filter options) would be incredibly bad when we get to, say, The International. Pure SC2/BW fans would hate the flood of Dota news.
I also love the design of LiquidDota because as a community, I think Dota is a bit less "intellectual" (pardon the use of the term) and is comprised more of the "free spirits," in the sense that they (we?) prefer more flashy stuff, less strict moderation, and a less tense atmosphere.
I know the feedback was initially negative, but you just rocked the boat a bit. Once things stabilize, everyone will begin to appreciate the necessity of the split.
Re community threads: that's definitely the best way to go about it. I was also thinking (if it would be feasible), a very notable link or tab to Dota 2 on TL, and vice-versa, so that we don't feel completely disconnected from each other. What I envision is a design that has a tab (kinda like browsers, but in the page itself), that you can click to bring you to the other site, but doesn't open a new window (kinda like how focus mode happens in the articles).
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Netherlands4980 Posts
For a long time I was pissed off by all the SC2 content mixing up with SC:BW.
On the calendar they shared the same race icons, making it hard to keep events apart.
One of my suggestion back then was to have SC2 race icons be different to BW to keep them apart easier.
I felt like my suggestion was regarded as just another hater comment and thus ignored.
But eventually, with the arrival of customizable sidebars and then streams,
TL truly felt like 'home' again!
+ Show Spoiler +However TLPD is still a mess with BW/SC2 stuff being mixed up at some parts.
On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
Going forward we're going to make TL a dedicated hub for StarCraft again.
What is StarCraft? It is so confusing. Is it StarCraft II, is it StarCraft: Brood War or is it both?
Please don't mix BW and SC2 again. If you do then please keep the site customizable for us.
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Canada11349 Posts
What is StarCraft? It is so confusing. Is it StarCraft II, is it StarCraft: Brood War or is it both?
Well don't get too confused. SC2 and BW will carry on as before on TL. So yes, both.
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I don't really know what people are complaining about, LiquidPoker has been a different community for ages
edit: and you still have to add the LiquidDota link to the TeamLiquidPro site 
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thx for claring things up! i was on of the (many) unhappy users, but now i feel a lot more positiv about the changes. looking forward especially to the shared community functions.
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On May 13 2014 17:11 Tufas wrote:
I don't really know what people are complaining about, LiquidPoker has been a different community for ages
Yes, but Liquid poker has been a thing since 2005, I'm not sure there has ever been a poker forum on TL, but that was before my time.
If dota had been a separate site from the start I would probably watched and been involved alot less with dota than I am now, and I defiantly wouldn't have cared that it was separate.
Furthermore, while the situation sucks for me (following 2 websites instead of one, not rating the cosmetic changes, appreciating the new calender somewhat), its not the end of the world, alot of people seem to like it, Naz and co are looking into ironing some of the issues, (I would really dig an opt in shared calender - I come to TL mostly to see if there is anything cool to watch, read about cool things to watch, and occasionally, if the feeling takes me, type "so good!!" with more exclamation marks than necessary.)
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Shared forums for community/other games/blogs is a quantum solace for yesterdays disapointment. I was seriously sad/mad and felt betrayed. As soon as all non-starcraft2 related forums are linked to Liquiddota.com I will give that site a chance and hope it can become my new to-go-to website.
On this point I will also say goodbye to Starcraft2 completely, which I, up to now, at least kept watching for big games, when I saw them up on the streaming section. I also rediscovered readmore.de for multi-esports coverage and my mood lightened up overall.
Last words: Thanks for the blog Nazgul. It is much appreciated.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
There is only one thing that sucks about liquiddota
the fact I am a 1 post user and have no power >:[
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Also I really hope you split BW and Sc2, sending Sc2 to a new site, would be worth it for the jerk factor alone.
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China6329 Posts
On May 13 2014 17:39 Kerotan wrote:
Also I really hope you split BW and Sc2, sending Sc2 to a new site, would be worth it for the jerk factor alone.
You can disable SC2 completely right now using the filter, I don't see what's the problem, I don't like League or Dota so both are filtered out of my TL for the past years and they never bothered me since. Stuff exists, but you can simply ignore it.
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I think this decision will be for the best, although I'm a little worried because SC2's popularity isn't on it's peak atm...
TL!!
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I wouldn't be here anymore if the TL LoL community wasn't here. I'm pretty disappointed in this change, we had some pretty good things rolling in our relatively small community. Getting demoted back to the Other Games section feels like a slap in the face of our hardworking staff and people, we've had to deal with TL treating us as a inferior community from the get go (even though we have our Tournament/General/Strategy sections, they get no attention).
Also the "EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways.". Yeah right. In the entire time TL has had a LoL section it feels like there has been literally zero support from the central hub. Good articles were written, good content was created. Nothing got promoted.
Anyway, if we do not retain our subforum community with more or less the same structure, I'll leave TL. SC2 got boring for me in 2011.
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I really think this is a big mistake. The biggest problem for content creators is to get regular site visitors that are going to check your site daily, rather than just wait for the interesting articles to be linked on twitter or a content aggregator like reddit. Take ongamers for example, they could never build a strong foundation of regular visitors and most of their traffic came from content aggregators and twitter. After the reddit ban they had significant drops in traffic.
I loved to check out some of the hearthstone stuff that monk and the others were doing at first. It was just a click away and quality stuff even though I play hearthstone very irregularly at best. Since you split them of to liquidhearth I tried to check the site regularly, but after the first couple of days I have not been regularly checking out the hearthstone content anymore.
It's not like you had 100 articles a day and it was getting too crowded on the teamliquid frontpage. If you thought the filters were not good enough for people that didn't want to see certain content you should have improved that system, not split up your community.
If you would really believe in your concept, the logical conclusion would be to also create liquidbw and liquidsc2. In fact it would probably be a great experiment. Keep teamliquid as a main hub as it was, maybe even re-integrate hearthstone and have these sub-websites for with the game specific content only. After a month check how many people actually directly go on liquidsc2 or liquiddota. I am absolutely convinced that the vast majority of the community would still be more than happy to simply go on the main site and have no interest whatsoever in going for the sub-sites...
Especially SC2 and Dota have a great communities with a lot of carry-over, splitting them up is a bad idea in short and longterm. Please rethink your approach and go back to have one big awesome community, rather than small splinter groups that will eventually only be a shadow of the past with the majority of people just getting their content from reddit and twitter...
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Thank you for the well written reasoning, it makes me appreciate the change now. That is IF the community/general sections are shared across the sites, like you plan to. That was indeed the biggest obstacle to this change. I'll stick with the SC section either way, whatever you do
Gl
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United Kingdom36161 Posts
damn, I liked reading about random Dota things even though I never played it.
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As long as the community forums (and preferable Other Games and Blogs) get shared I'm happy.
Good move overall imo.
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I haven't read the other thread with the responses to TL Dota, but as someone who follows Starcraft and Starcraft only, I think it's a good idea to split the sites.
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this will be much better this way for TL in general
that's really a nice feature to offer the community with different "good looking" sites for each game x_x
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I wasn't a fan of the split at the beginning, even voicing my discontent on reddit, but the reworked stream and calendar for the dota 2 site have convinced me, good job !
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Well explained. The initial dislike through inconvenience is mostly gone already and with a point of view from behind the scenes it starts to make a bit more sense. I sincerely hope you can realize the plans to bring the options for united calendars and streams true, since that would remedy all of the inconvenience for me and the people I know in a heartbeat.
The biggest issue with the split currently is that where you used to be able to use TL.net as your go-to hub for seeing if any events or streams were up, you now currently have an easier time checking that on twitch if you have an account and some favorites. This was already apparent when the hearthstone site was launched.
On the flipside of things. The dota calendar is amazingly done and feels way easier to read than I'm used to. The united account and login for all the sites is also neat. There's clearly gone a lot of work into this, but it definitely still needs those few features to make sure that the entire TL domain doesn't lose functionality for the veteran users.
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On May 13 2014 03:46 Waise wrote:
some people's reasoning is beyond me. people are actually complaining that they aren't going to see content on TL anymore because they aren't going to come to TL anymore? well if you want to see content here then keep coming here?? honestly i think people are just complaining for the sake of complaining about something new, just like how any time a major site redesigns their interface or layout people flip shit for a couple of weeks and then forget how it even looked before
The thing people are complaining about is that they miss the general community on the dota site.
Example: People want 1 game of thrones thread for the whole TL community and not 3 different ones on 3 sites.
They don't mind so much that dota2 is split from sc2, but that dota2 is split from the general TL community.
This will be fixed though so that's great.
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On May 13 2014 13:27 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 05:44 EndingLife wrote:
We need more BW content. There are still a lot of us that follow SC:BW and there is still a decent pro-scene around. This is one of the strengths of this move, in my opinion. For SC BW, SC2, and Dota 2. When there wasn't much going on with SCBW, SC2 and Dota 2 were competing for frontpage space. Now that BW is on the upswing, three separate games competing for the front page means a lot of really quality articles get bumped out of the prime spots far too quickly. With Liquid Dota2, their content won't be choked out by two separate SC games and for SCBW, we won't get murdered by the wave of content coming out of SC2 and Dota 2. I understand the nuisance of visiting separate sites, but in this sense at least, I think it is better.
On May 13 2014 15:49 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +What is StarCraft? It is so confusing. Is it StarCraft II, is it StarCraft: Brood War or is it both?
Well don't get too confused. SC2 and BW will carry on as before on TL. So yes, both.
I assume you mean a BW page and a SC2 one? If not your first post doesn't really make much of a difference for BW with the filter option and all. Personally, I don't care what you do, as long as I'm not forced to search for BW content in between other games like a few years ago. It's not that I despise the other games (just a little), it's just not interesting.
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If the community forums are on every site and the calendar can be modified to include multiple games, then alright, I can get behind this
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On May 13 2014 18:53 Doctorbeat wrote:
I wouldn't be here anymore if the TL LoL community wasn't here. I'm pretty disappointed in this change, we had some pretty good things rolling in our relatively small community. Getting demoted back to the Other Games section feels like a slap in the face of our hardworking staff and people, we've had to deal with TL treating us as a inferior community from the get go (even though we have our Tournament/General/Strategy sections, they get no attention).
Also the "EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways.". Yeah right. In the entire time TL has had a LoL section it feels like there has been literally zero support from the central hub. Good articles were written, good content was created. Nothing got promoted.
Anyway, if we do not retain our subforum community with more or less the same structure, I'll leave TL. SC2 got boring for me in 2011.
I'll be writing a more in depth post about this for the LoL subforums later. I have to point out that the lack of spotlight/tweets is not caused by our intentions, as we have always wanted to use spotlight and twitter for any quality content generated in the community, but more so by a communication gap between the LoL staff and the rest of TL. This is something we've been working on recently and it should be better in the future.
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I thought that LiquidHearth was a great idea and I am glad that with LiquidDota, the traditional TeamLiquid is back on its Starcraft focus.
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On May 13 2014 20:57 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 18:53 Doctorbeat wrote:
I wouldn't be here anymore if the TL LoL community wasn't here. I'm pretty disappointed in this change, we had some pretty good things rolling in our relatively small community. Getting demoted back to the Other Games section feels like a slap in the face of our hardworking staff and people, we've had to deal with TL treating us as a inferior community from the get go (even though we have our Tournament/General/Strategy sections, they get no attention).
Also the "EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways.". Yeah right. In the entire time TL has had a LoL section it feels like there has been literally zero support from the central hub. Good articles were written, good content was created. Nothing got promoted.
Anyway, if we do not retain our subforum community with more or less the same structure, I'll leave TL. SC2 got boring for me in 2011. I'll be writing a more in depth post about this for the LoL subforums later. I have to point out that the lack of spotlight/tweets is not caused by our intentions, as we have always wanted to use spotlight and twitter for any quality content generated in the community, but more so by a communication gap between the LoL staff and the rest of TL. This is something we've been working on recently and it should be better in the future.
Thanks for the update, looking forward to your post.
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I understand your point if view, but TL also provides really good community contents I use a lot to find good mangas, random games fun blogs etc. I miss this on liquid dota. is there a way those community things can appear on both sites?
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On May 13 2014 19:03 h0munkulus wrote:
I really think this is a big mistake. The biggest problem for content creators is to get regular site visitors that are going to check your site daily, rather than just wait for the interesting articles to be linked on twitter or a content aggregator like reddit. Take ongamers for example, they could never build a strong foundation of regular visitors and most of their traffic came from content aggregators and twitter. After the reddit ban they had significant drops in traffic.
I loved to check out some of the hearthstone stuff that monk and the others were doing at first. It was just a click away and quality stuff even though I play hearthstone very irregularly at best. Since you split them of to liquidhearth I tried to check the site regularly, but after the first couple of days I have not been regularly checking out the hearthstone content anymore.
It's not like you had 100 articles a day and it was getting too crowded on the teamliquid frontpage. If you thought the filters were not good enough for people that didn't want to see certain content you should have improved that system, not split up your community.
If you would really believe in your concept, the logical conclusion would be to also create liquidbw and liquidsc2. In fact it would probably be a great experiment. Keep teamliquid as a main hub as it was, maybe even re-integrate hearthstone and have these sub-websites for with the game specific content only. After a month check how many people actually directly go on liquidsc2 or liquiddota. I am absolutely convinced that the vast majority of the community would still be more than happy to simply go on the main site and have no interest whatsoever in going for the sub-sites...
Especially SC2 and Dota have a great communities with a lot of carry-over, splitting them up is a bad idea in short and longterm. Please rethink your approach and go back to have one big awesome community, rather than small splinter groups that will eventually only be a shadow of the past with the majority of people just getting their content from reddit and twitter...
I would echo most of this. I would not be playing dota now if it weren't for the merged site. Creating separate sites is great for pulling completely new people to TL, but the people already using TL are an important source of users for your new content as well. Splitting your sites significantly raises the entry/crossover barriers for that group.
I would argue that existing users are an important group to think for in this, because they contain active contributors who may be drifting away because they're losing interest in (insert game here). That's a natural part of a user's life-cycle here, and you shouldn't underestimate the benefit you get from piquing those people's interest in other games that TL supports. That was the greatest strength of the shared site.
Personally, I came to TL early in SC2. I started to read the dota articles after TL picked it up, because i wanted to know what the fuss was about and was getting bored with SC2. Eventually, because I kept seeing the articles, kept clicking them and kept learning about the game, I went and got myself a key to try it out. Now I'm a relatively regular poster in the dota forums/Liquiddota. If that had not happened, I would probably be posting here once a week in the general sections after giving up on SC2.
I am happy with the experiment and particularly happy with the look of Liquiddota, but I think you should keep this in mind. At the very least, I would suggest you try to maintain some vehicle for exposing people to content they don't think they care about.
Give people many, many avenues to shift between the sister sites. They shouldn't be islands. If they are islands they will die, or at least become something very different to TL home.
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Poland3748 Posts
On May 13 2014 07:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 02:45 Yacobs wrote:
TeamLiquid was unique with the previous format, now it loses some (a lot?) of that. I really appreciated the fact that there was a lot of different games being covered in one place with a focus on competitive gaming. I will still be a user of both sites most likely but I could easily see myself spending most of the time on the Dota site and at some point basically forgetting about TL.
It sounds to me like there was mostly a web design / organizational / interface issue with TL... why not simply have "filters" on the top that excludes games you don't want to see? Why did it necessitate a fragmented community? The short explanation for this is that we can't make choices based on customization. Customization serves as added value for those who use it, but it can't dictate site-wide choices as the majority of our visitors simply don't use them.
Why can't LiquidDota.com and TeamLiquid.net point to the same set of files (so the same website) but with different, predefined set of preferences?
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4713 Posts
Glad that you posted here Nazgul. Personally I really like the change and I kind of know exactly what you are getting at. When I initially made TL my favorite gaming site it was due to SC2, later on I developed a passion for BW but I've stuck to mostly those games. I didn't mind the addition of DoTA2, but as time went on and more games got added it started to feel overwhelming when most of the focus you want is on your favorite game.
I'm quite happy with the way the sites are now, I can still easily click on LiquidDota if I want to read up on the latest regarding DoTA.The one other feature I would love though, and I'm glad you are already considering, is indeed the shared calendar. And the reason why I'd like the calendar the most is, to have a easy way to see the upcomming events for each game, and to know which I'd like to pick and chose for viewing, or which I could juggle trough.
Having some customisability to be able to filter out what games or events would be great, but will probably take some time. For now though I love TL how it is and I'm sure you guys are doing your best to make it even more awesome in the future.
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China6329 Posts
On May 13 2014 21:59 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 07:26 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:On May 13 2014 02:45 Yacobs wrote:
TeamLiquid was unique with the previous format, now it loses some (a lot?) of that. I really appreciated the fact that there was a lot of different games being covered in one place with a focus on competitive gaming. I will still be a user of both sites most likely but I could easily see myself spending most of the time on the Dota site and at some point basically forgetting about TL.
It sounds to me like there was mostly a web design / organizational / interface issue with TL... why not simply have "filters" on the top that excludes games you don't want to see? Why did it necessitate a fragmented community? The short explanation for this is that we can't make choices based on customization. Customization serves as added value for those who use it, but it can't dictate site-wide choices as the majority of our visitors simply don't use them. Why can't LiquidDota.com and TeamLiquid.net point to the same set of files (so the same website) but with different, predefined set of preferences?
Everything that involves cookie and cache and numerous access privileges are way complicated than accessing several files.
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On May 13 2014 18:53 Doctorbeat wrote:
I wouldn't be here anymore if the TL LoL community wasn't here. I'm pretty disappointed in this change, we had some pretty good things rolling in our relatively small community. Getting demoted back to the Other Games section feels like a slap in the face of our hardworking staff and people, we've had to deal with TL treating us as a inferior community from the get go (even though we have our Tournament/General/Strategy sections, they get no attention).
Also the "EVE, Smash, LoL, Hearthstone, Heroes, Mafia, you name it. If good articles are written in these sections we will spotlight them and promote them in other ways.". Yeah right. In the entire time TL has had a LoL section it feels like there has been literally zero support from the central hub. Good articles were written, good content was created. Nothing got promoted.
Anyway, if we do not retain our subforum community with more or less the same structure, I'll leave TL. SC2 got boring for me in 2011.
We got demoted off the entire website if you want to compare it. I think you'll be fine.
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I just realized that the filters were removed. Before i deactivated Dota,BW and LoL i think.
Now we have Liquiddota but i can´t block BW and LoL anymore. Is there any possibility to do this? I don´t wanna see the BW and LoL Threads like before...
Hope my english is enough and the word "filter" is the right one. I mean the Buttons at the top right to activate and deactivate the shown stuff.
Greetings
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I like the change, if this "shared community section" becomes real. A shared calendar would also be nice (on a separate page, having only dota calendar entries on the dota sidebar is fine for me, but I'd love some page where it shows me which SC, Dota etch events are going on now).
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On May 13 2014 23:34 EXRNaRa wrote:
I just realized that the filters were removed. Before i deactivated Dota,BW and LoL i think.
Now we have Liquiddota but i can´t block BW and LoL anymore. Is there any possibility to do this? I don´t wanna see the BW and LoL Threads like before...
Hope my english is enough and the word "filter" is the right one. I mean the Buttons at the top right to activate and deactivate the shown stuff.
Greetings
You can still customize your sidebar, remove tournaments & strategy and add sc2, and you should only have sc2 content.
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I'm happy about this. I find all MOBAS extremely uninteresting to watch or play, with low mechanical skill and largely decision based play they're no different to sc2arcade lane pushing type games to me. It frustrates me having to log in to filter out all that alien jargon and hype around surrounds them, I feel like I accidentally wandered into the room the table top games workshop nerds have set up in. These are not my nerds...
TL is losing traction as the Starcraft hub, I feel this is at least in part because its pushing games the organisers find more fun/easy, it isn't why I'm here. It's a good move for folks like me.
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Quick question: When you say LoL streams will no longer be shown on the sidebar, do you mean everything or only player streams? For example will the LCS and other major LoL events still be on the calendar and sidebar. I don't watch LoL player streams but I watch plenty of league content and it's convenient being able to view it from TL.
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I feel like I'm the only person ever to look at all these changes and not care a bit.
I've always followed the SC2 scene (BW was doubtlessly epic but I didn't get on that train) and TL is the go-to site for that. TL also does a fucking AMAZING job at it to. It's >really< easy to know exactly what tournaments are going on, when they're going on, who is in (liquipedia is also amazing) and everything is covered so well it's hard to believe that the writers aren't paid (^^). Since TL does such an amazing job at covering the SC2 scene (indeed, are there actually other SC2 sites? lul) I have no need whatsoever to go anywhere else to get my SC2 fix. Having all the relevant streams listed and whatnot is also huge. TL basically makes it very easy to follow SC2.
TL also has a community that lets you discuss dangerously touchy subjects as long as what you post is reasonable. That's something you don't see on other sites. TL moderation has the reputation of being harsh but as long as you aren't actually posting stupid shit it's very easy to post on TL about most topics. I'm starting to get addicted to the tech section even though I'm complete shit at tech stuff.
I don't care about either Dota 2, LoL, hearthstone or Smash. Just throwing that out there. However I had a year long fling with LoL, where I followed the scene and was voyboy's fan (still am actually just I don't ever watch LoL ^^"). During that year, there was no other site that covered LoL like TL covers SC2. So that was annoying. Just goes to show. I respect all the games mentioned in this paragraph though. I just don't follow them.
So some might have a problem with the changes that have come and gone. First TL started covering Dota2, then hearthstone, then both got seperate sites. Pretty sure most people complained during every transition. I didn't give a fuck because TL never stopped covering SC2 as well as it still does today. That's the gist of it.
I can understand people who are interested in both SC2 and Dota2/HS/etc being annoyed with this change. perhaps a possible compromise for this would be to take the links at the very top of the site (which link to liquiddota, etc) and instead put them in the right-hand sidebar and then also spruce them up a bit so that they're a bit more visible. the seperate sites and still seperate but it's easier / more visual to jump between them. If you keep the layout the same between every site it makes people even cozier
idk lul
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On May 13 2014 23:54 et wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 23:34 EXRNaRa wrote:
I just realized that the filters were removed. Before i deactivated Dota,BW and LoL i think.
Now we have Liquiddota but i can´t block BW and LoL anymore. Is there any possibility to do this? I don´t wanna see the BW and LoL Threads like before...
Hope my english is enough and the word "filter" is the right one. I mean the Buttons at the top right to activate and deactivate the shown stuff.
Greetings You can still customize your sidebar, remove tournaments & strategy and add sc2, and you should only have sc2 content.
I swear the old bar i am missing was at the top of my picture below.
Even if i change the profile settings i still have LoL and BW Streams at the left side and LoL Threads at the right...
http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3621/2sp66zaq_png.htm
Greetings
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I greatly dislike the split, i come to TL because it covers things cohesively and very expertly.
I appreciate the intent, but i despise having having absolutely everything split.
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On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
StarCraft
Going forward we're going to make TL a dedicated hub for StarCraft again. In the next couple of days we will be making changes to the forum and filter structures to resemble this. Accordingly we'll be making changes to the forum structure and streaming section. Again this will be a change that may not be popular with the entire community as it will also mean that the LoL forums will go into "Other Games" and the LoL streams won't be showing up anymore as default.
I love you for saying this.
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On May 14 2014 03:39 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:04 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
StarCraft
Going forward we're going to make TL a dedicated hub for StarCraft again. In the next couple of days we will be making changes to the forum and filter structures to resemble this. Accordingly we'll be making changes to the forum structure and streaming section. Again this will be a change that may not be popular with the entire community as it will also mean that the LoL forums will go into "Other Games" and the LoL streams won't be showing up anymore as default.
I love you for saying this.
I heart you quoting this bit.
Also as someone who has used TL exclusively for Broodwar in the last 8~ years, I did not even notice DotA or Hearth were gone. If you make shared Blog things etc. that's fine and probably a nice idea.
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On May 13 2014 17:43 digmouse wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 17:39 Kerotan wrote:
Also I really hope you split BW and Sc2, sending Sc2 to a new site, would be worth it for the jerk factor alone. You can disable SC2 completely right now using the filter, I don't see what's the problem, I don't like League or Dota so both are filtered out of my TL for the past years and they never bothered me since. Stuff exists, but you can simply ignore it.
I follow both, so the spite was purely from those who like SC2, and are glad to the scourge of dota off the main site.
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I miss being able to check what dota streams are going on as I browse the community forums. The ability to opt-in in the settings to show what I want on that stream sidebar would be really helpful, as I'm spending more time on TL than TD.
Hopefully this is part of the feedback you've taken seriously already and have on a list to implement. If not, now you know.
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I'm not really a Dota follower, so i dont care all that much for the entire Dota content there is. I'm moslty watching Starcraft, though i like to tune in into some of the bigger Dota events sometimes (Like The International or so).
I'm completly fine with having Dota migrate to a new site. But i think it would be nice if you could "customize" your events timetable and still make it show Dota streams of some events, or maybe show Dota events by default (Doenst have to be every weakly cup, but maybe the bigger events). All the tournament threads, the discussion and strategy would still be on the new Dota site, but this way you can keep track on what events are currently online without having to tab between different sites.
That would be awesome!
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If I infer correctly, it's good that TL will be focusing on being a Starcraft Broodwar Community site again. It's the best game. Productive decision.
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I love this. Thanks Nazgul!
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On May 14 2014 00:41 EXRNaRa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2014 23:54 et wrote:On May 13 2014 23:34 EXRNaRa wrote:
I just realized that the filters were removed. Before i deactivated Dota,BW and LoL i think.
Now we have Liquiddota but i can´t block BW and LoL anymore. Is there any possibility to do this? I don´t wanna see the BW and LoL Threads like before...
Hope my english is enough and the word "filter" is the right one. I mean the Buttons at the top right to activate and deactivate the shown stuff.
Greetings You can still customize your sidebar, remove tournaments & strategy and add sc2, and you should only have sc2 content. I swear the old bar i am missing was at the top of my picture below. Even if i change the profile settings i still have LoL and BW Streams at the left side and LoL Threads at the right... http://www.directupload.net/file/d/3621/2sp66zaq_png.htmGreetings
You are pointing to the "tournaments" block, which I told you to remove.
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Just one voice, but I follow Dota 2 a lot, and SC2 off and on. I used to use TL primarily, but to be honest I think I'll just start using Reddit for Dota 2 and stop following SC2 (since it's too much work to follow both). In my opinion this move will segment a tight community, but I wish both sites all the best.
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Would making the main site be the hub for all of the dedicated sites help? As in, teamliquid.net is just where you go to read all the general forums and other games forums and such, but also the Starcraft, Dota, and Hearthstone general forums are there too, just so it has some of the pieces of the other sites. You would also have the more popular streamers and large events happening on the main site. And in order to get into the deeper content for your particular game, you clicked an icon for your game on the main banner and that took you to the Starcraft or Dota or Hearthstone portal. Obviously you would also have to create a Starcraft portal, but this would make coming to TL much more open and general, and then if you want to get into the in-depth content, you just clicked the game you wanted.
As a better example of what I mean, look at yahoo.com. On the main page, it has a variety of content from all of the other portals from its site, but if you want to look at finance, you click on the finance portal that takes you to the part of the site that is exclusively finance. So you still have to switch between the sites to get the in-depth content, but you also present a good mix of everything on the main site which makes interacting with the great community easier.
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I don't know how much this matters, but a couple of friends who have been lurkers on the site for a while told me that with this change, they've just stopped visiting both sites. Mostly they just find it inconvenient to navigate between the two.
I still think at least making the portals to Liquiddota and LiquidHearth larger, more obvious, and a bigger part of the site couldn't hurt and would be a nice feature for those who do come to TL for two or more of those games. Maybe even have some kind of "headlines from the other sites" on the news sidebar. Not too obtrusive, but convenient.
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Canada11349 Posts
I still think at least making the portals to Liquiddota and LiquidHearth larger, more obvious, and a bigger part of the site couldn't hurt
I think this is true. I had forgotten where the link to get to liquidhearth even was, tucked away at the top of the website as it is. Perhaps the old real estate currently being used by the filters, could be used for portals? Or something of that similar size. (Assuming filters will disappear.)
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Thank you Nazgul! All the DOTA stuff made me lose interest in this site and made me turn to reddit.
I originally fell in love with this site because everyone who came here was also drawn here for the same reason as myself - StarCraft. There's a lot of diversity within this community but we all had one thing in common. I felt like this began to fade when dota was introduced to this site, it may not have been that way for a lot of visitors but it certainly was the case for me
When dota was introduced to this site and started invading the content space, I felt like this site had lost what made it special to me.
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2/10 on the new change, but I understand the necessity. My dota peers didnt like TL cause its full of .... non-dota stuff like [GIRL] Blogs. It sucks but for Liquid to gain marketshare in Dota 2 this is probably a good move. I hope Liquiddota can one day be as professional and well regarded for Dota 2 players as TeamLiquid has been for SC2 players.
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I was a die-hard SC2 fan til about a year ago, then I gradually moved into Dota, when TL covered doto during TI i was ecstatic. Now even tho I don't watch too much HoTs, I still really enjoyed visiting TL and being kept in the loop with Starcraft.
Now I have to tab both sites and I think eventually I'll stop visiting TL altogether. Could we at least have an option to display both sites or something =(
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I posted this in the original thread already, but thought I might put it here as well:
I was also skeptical about these changes, but did not comment on it until I saw how they would go about it.
I personally feel that the change was needed, as the whole site started to feel awkwardly crowded with content that did not really belonged together. I watch lots of Starcraft and mostly only play Dota and only occasionally watch some of it, so mostly the dota news were kind of alienating.
After this re-vamp it really feels like the TL like a couple of years ago again, and I really like it, I have to say !
There is one tweek I would like to propose. Since I still would like to follow the Dota 2 scence once in a while, it would be nice if the links on the top right which lead you to the different TL "clones" would be bigger and maybe formatted differently, like using tabs in the browser. Often you check TL, read what you wanted to read and then switch.
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As someone who followed BW intensely; I never went to any other e-sports related site for information back when the game was still hot. This also applied to SC2 when I followed it.
After Dota 2 took over as my main interest as a game (both as a player and a follower), I found myself needing more and more information that wasn't provided on TL (or was just too hard to find). After all I don't want to filter away SC2 related stuff, as I still want to know what's going on in that department.
Dota 2 is a game that has tons more going on than SC2 in terms of the sheer amount of games and all the different leagues being played simultaneously. In light of this, the standard TL calendar just didn't cut it, and as such I find this very welcome.
I think the main concern for many of us who has browsed TL for years, but has more or less transitioned away from SC2, is that we don't want to lose our "connection" with this site. Part of me wishes you would atleast have called it teamliquiddota.net, but from a commercial standpoint I have understand why you didn't
This change is a bit saddening, but definitely needed for TL to be able to compete as a community site within the dota 2 sphere. Your strongest card in that regard has been the Dota 2 liquipedia. There is nothing else like it, and I'd like to give a HUGE shoutout to all the amazing coders and updaters. I love you all dearly!
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I know quite a few people, myself included, wanted a comprehensive stream list that covered multiple games on one website. And i saw that you said that your plans for making that happen might happen in the future. I was wondering if you might think of using filters to automatically block all games except the title game for that website (ie by default only dota games would show up on liquiddota, unless the user went to their profile and decided to select an option to see all the featured streams across the liquid family of websites). But, i don't know anything about web design, and have no idea about the logistics involved in implementing something like this.
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My favourite thing about TL is that it encases the games i like to follow. i don't feel it's too in depth at all. The reason i go to TL is to read news about sc2 and dota2 besides finding streams (needs more featured streamers!)
EDIT: also, the filtering system is super easy to use - maybe make it more obvious when a new user enters the site?
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I'm personally happy about the change. I stopped posting and reading the forums here regularly when the site started growing to cover multiple games, because there was a flood of content irrelevant to my interests and new people posting using terminology and inside jokes from other communities. As you said the thing that made TL great before was that everyone had a common interest and the community had just the right "learning curve", but this has faded to a large extent. We can never go back to the BW glory days but I think this is a much needed step in the right direction for the BW/SC2 community, and a seed for starting something great for DOTA2.
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I fully understand and agree with your decision Nazgul. Very well explained, as it put into words somethings I've only had as feelings. I never really understood the reasons behind those feelings until I read this . 5/5
Also, thank you for thinking through all of these decisions and also maintaining a high level of communication so others easily understand the reasoning behind your ultimate decision.
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My only wish is to be able to have different signatures in each sub-site, and also team icons in Hearthstone. (: Apart from that I think it's cool. Though I have to admit the existence of LiquidHearth as a separate domain certainly contributes to me following less SC2/BW than before. Sometimes I just spend my time there and don't even notice stuff that was happening on TL.
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Good move.
Edit: Speaking of "Other games", why is it that there is a Diablo III subforum in that section but it does not show in the left bar?
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Lurker here who has enjoyed the mix on the site immensely.
Drawn here like many others by SC2 beta but "discovered" other games like DOTA through reading articles and tournament report. (Not to mention Hotbid's excellent interviews).
I've got a simple idea to maybe make more people happy:
Just make the filters in reverse. Without doing anything it shows just SC2/BW content but add buttons for "show news/featured articles from our sister sites".
Should be possible, right?
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Would've loved these changes couple years ago when I was still very active on sc2 ladder and the moba hate was still rampant in the community.
However, people seem to be a bit more mild on their views and respect moba better these days.
On the plus side they get to have front page stuff about their interests.
Strangely enough, I find myself playing dota and visiting liquiddota after the split more than I've ever had before.
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just a few thoughts of mine (a long time lurker who came across TL.net by chance and found it like home):
1/ People are resistant to changes: not pointing finger at anyone here, because I do feel the same. After 3 years of the old TL.net, a sudden change just make things feel uncomfortable. However, I do see some positive things in this change and willing to wait for a while to see if the overall result is good or bad.
2/ All the contents are still just a few clicks away, as you can just click on the liquiddota link top right to access. It just doesnt appear right in front of you eyes on the front page, but this makes things much cleaning and less confusing when there are so many information about different games/leagues appear
3/ I like the separate calendar/liquidpedia/event tracker as it helps me following the scene much more easier. But I also like a notification/calendar highlights to big events of the other games so I don't miss out when I don't check the site often. With the old calendar, I could be checking Dota2 event and oh, there is SC2 WCS final coming up in 15mins, may be I would want to watch that. New separate calendar can't help this
4/ I have grown attached to TL.net because it's such an amazing community, with a lot of helpful and knowledgeable members in all areas, from games to tech to anime to basically everything. And I also think that the togetherness and willingness to help each other is what make TL community as amazing as today. So while separating the sites for the different games may be good, I am not sure how it affects other aspects of the site. I also like to randomly check out other games threads when bored (LoL, Diablo3, PoE, TLADT, etc), so this separated sites might reduce my chance of discovering random hidden gems on this site T__T
Just a few things on top of my mind, may have more or not. Overall, thank you for communicate your thoughts and for everything else.
Back to under my rock lurking again whewwww
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now when you talk about community dissatisfaction, you are talking about the negative feedback that you got as a result of adding dota content about a year ago? (I cant remember when it was).
Ive only been posting on this site for about 2 years now but I have been visiting it since starcraft 2 came out.. I cant remember ever being upset or otherwise dissatisfied by the dota content that was brought to the site even though I have never played or watched the game (where by comparison I played a LOT of starcraft 2 and made it up to low masters at one point.)
That said, for some reason I am happy that this TL is back to only starcraft.
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At first I was unhappy with the change due to splitting news coverage but after using liquiddota for a bit, I think it's alright. I follow dota mainly so its just trouble for another tab for liquiddota. Just a slight inconvenience I guess.
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Disagree whole heartedly on the decision to reduce basically everything not StarCraft related. TL is more than a StarCraft site now and is a competitive gaming community.
I stopped actively caring about SC2 about 2yrs ago and only watch finals of huge tournaments nowadays. I then moved to LoL and DotA and some Hearthstone. Interest in that has now faded and I just kinda have an interest in multiple things. CS:GO, SC2 customs, and barely some league.
I come to TL nowadays for the threads I follow and the things that still peek my interests. I probably won't ever go to the Hearthstone site or the DotA2 site.
I don't know if you guys are doing this because you think SC2 needs more help being promoted or because you don't like the community the non SC stuff has brought here or because you just have some vision for the site the users don't understand. Whatever it is I'm pretty sure most people who aren't huge SC fans right now, right this moment disagree, the community is what makes a place worth visiting, without us this site is nothing.
TL might've started out as a StarCraft Community site but now it's developed into a Gaming Community site with a bigger focus on StarCraft and you guys need to accept that. If anything LoL needs a bigger portion of the site but we all know that's not going to happen when DotA2 is it's bigger competitor and is officially sponsored by TL with a team and everything. People accepted that, but then you're now going to make it even smaller and obscure and piss off even more people for no reason at all then you wanted the focus to be on SC.
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Sold. I love how you communicated through a blog on your own website. And I agree with the decision, however I do have a suggestion.
Can teamliquid.net and liquiddota.com share 'General Discussions' part of the forums? Meaning that posters in that forum from teamliquid.net and liquiddota.com can interact in the same place for non-SC2 and non-Dota2 content. This kind of cross-site interaction might be mutually beneficial for both scenes, especially from potential fans who play both games like me! Maybe spread that to sports section, politics section, what not. Basketball fans who also play respective game titles (SC2 and Dota2) would benefit from a larger pool of people for conversations, debates, discussions, etc.
The heart of the Team Liquid community are the forums. The Liquid brand can branch out in all directions but remain connect to its roots.
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At first I wasn't a fan of the change, but I see the reasoning behind it. Thanks for listening to feedback and doing your best to make TL as good as it can be!
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I'm so happy that I can look at the tournament list and not have to wonder anymore if I'm logged out and I'm seeing DOTA or other shit. Didn't realize how the old disorganization had trained my eyes. Boy were they happy when they looked for the shaded out "DOTA" button and saw that all of the filter buttons were gone.
Happy to have TeamLiquid back! Please keep it this way!
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I like the idea of splitting, but really I just want an aggregated Stream/events list for all games TL supports. I hate having to open 3 panes just to check the calender. Other than that, seems good.
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on liquiddota.com, the direct access for liquipedia and the discussion in the stream list is something extremely interesting
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Great change - thank you so much. I could live with the other game content as I love SC2@TL but dedicated sites are so much better. Thank you again, <3 TL!
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On May 16 2014 15:14 Zooper31 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Disagree whole heartedly on the decision to reduce basically everything not StarCraft related. TL is more than a StarCraft site now and is a competitive gaming community.
I stopped actively caring about SC2 about 2yrs ago and only watch finals of huge tournaments nowadays. I then moved to LoL and DotA and some Hearthstone. Interest in that has now faded and I just kinda have an interest in multiple things. CS:GO, SC2 customs, and barely some league.
I come to TL nowadays for the threads I follow and the things that still peek my interests. I probably won't ever go to the Hearthstone site or the DotA2 site.
I don't know if you guys are doing this because you think SC2 needs more help being promoted or because you don't like the community the non SC stuff has brought here or because you just have some vision for the site the users don't understand. Whatever it is I'm pretty sure most people who aren't huge SC fans right now, right this moment disagree, the community is what makes a place worth visiting, without us this site is nothing.
TL might've started out as a StarCraft Community site but now it's developed into a Gaming Community site with a bigger focus on StarCraft and you guys need to accept that. If anything LoL needs a bigger portion of the site but we all know that's not going to happen when DotA2 is it's bigger competitor and is officially sponsored by TL with a team and everything. People accepted that, but then you're now going to make it even smaller and obscure and piss off even more people for no reason at all then you wanted the focus to be on SC.
pretty much agree with that dude.
TL is my goto page for most things. im barely following sc2 anymore, somewhat follow dota but the overall community and moderation is whats keeping me here since 2004.
i dont want to visit another website for dota even if its under the TL flag. i dont want my sports,movie,games boards get hurt cause the community gets split.
if we could get shared forums or some kind of integration in the main TL site that would be cool. as it stands now for me it just has tonsa downsides.
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teamliquid.net/dota routes to a 404
teamliquid.net/dota2 just points to the TL homepage.
I think linking those to the dota site would help a lot.
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On May 12 2014 23:41 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 23:29 Milkis wrote:
I definitely think it was a great idea to split the front page of the site. The information that you can display based on it is really something.
But I don't like how each of the portals forces a split among the community. I think Blogs, "Other Games", and Community should be shared among all of the liquid sites. I think there's only things to be lost by not doing so (esp when you see "dead" or very inactive forums, which will likely be the case for those sections).
I know there's a lot to be gained by splitting up the front pages -- but can't the community be kept intact? Definitely! I tried to address these points in my post already, but we're going to try and make it happen. Only thing I'm not sure about is Blogs but it is worth considering.
I am actually OK, in fact I would say very pleased, with having dedicated sites so long as the communities have easy paths to staying in touch with one another (which you are already addressing). The calendar issue is the biggest for me, I almost want to give up on trying to keep track entirely, and instead just watching only what is on instead of planning for upcoming vents when I think about having to click through three different websites to check their calendars and get upcoming tournament news.
Thanks for staying committed to change and keeping an open mind!
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Lol I still dont understand the point of separating dota from this website..in the 3 weeks now since you guys did this you've had so few new stories on this site that the announcement for the dota site is still on the top 4 stories, along with lone star clash pictures..lone star clash..yeah I completely see why a new site was needed..
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
On May 30 2014 04:56 Survivor61316 wrote:
Lol I still dont understand the point of separating dota from this website..in the 3 weeks now since you guys did this you've had so few new stories on this site that the announcement for the dota site is still on the top 4 stories, along with lone star clash pictures..lone star clash..yeah I completely see why a new site was needed..
Eh? The LiquidDota announcement is not listed in the latest news on either TL or LD any more. That aside, the purpose of this is not only to accommodate what we have now, but to give space for each site to grow without stepping on each other's toes.
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On May 30 2014 05:43 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 04:56 Survivor61316 wrote:
Lol I still dont understand the point of separating dota from this website..in the 3 weeks now since you guys did this you've had so few new stories on this site that the announcement for the dota site is still on the top 4 stories, along with lone star clash pictures..lone star clash..yeah I completely see why a new site was needed.. Eh? The LiquidDota announcement is not listed in the latest news on either TL or LD any more. That aside, the purpose of this is not only to accommodate what we have now, but to give space for each site to grow without stepping on each other's toes.
Or shrink? :D
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On May 30 2014 05:43 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 30 2014 04:56 Survivor61316 wrote:
Lol I still dont understand the point of separating dota from this website..in the 3 weeks now since you guys did this you've had so few new stories on this site that the announcement for the dota site is still on the top 4 stories, along with lone star clash pictures..lone star clash..yeah I completely see why a new site was needed.. Eh? The LiquidDota announcement is not listed in the latest news on either TL or LD any more. That aside, the purpose of this is not only to accommodate what we have now, but to give space for each site to grow without stepping on each other's toes.
Yes it is..its that, the lone star clash pictures, GSL code s, and WCS eu season 2
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Here is how to have separate sites AND keeping the community together:
teamliquid.net
Displays Starcraft specific content on the home page.
liquiddota.com
Displays Dota specific content on the home page.
Forum
When you go to the forum from either of those sites, Starcraft AND Dota content is shown.
There are many smart ways of dividing up the information.
Just take a look at sites like reddit or quora.
They deal perfectly with the problem of having many different communities.
And there are lots of advantages for having separate communities unified into one.
I think that e-sports should stay one community at the least!
So the idea is basically to have one stream of content instead of subsections inside the forum. And the content can be filtered based on one's preferences. You can choose the topics that interest and those that dont.
For example, my interests are SC2, chess and Game of Thrones, so these topics should get priority in the content stream. I'm not interested in "Anime" at all, so I should be able to mute it.
The traditional forum architecture is all nice, but it's based on a 20 year old concept and not really the current industry standard anymore.
tl;dr: You can deal with the problem of having too much content by having content streams and personalized topics.
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The OP made it sound as if SC related content would now be "more" visible or at least more often newsed. Right now there are several BW topics which are imo news worthy (community news at least):
bw.de oldschool tour (already long over)
Gem League III
3v3 BGH Event
The Afreeca League
It seems a little odd what's news now and what's not and what was news not too long ago; for instance every other pro switching to Afreeca got one, even if he only appeared on streams outside of leagues rarely. The LoveTV show match thing is newsed, the aforementioned three tournaments are not. By the same "every-pro-who-streams-gets-a-thread-and-is-newsed" logic, you could also add small news about Iris covering eSports, the Jaehoon incident and whatnot.
Is this a problem of staff missing, or is this related to the site changes? It for sure is weird.
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EPT
