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This thread is not for discussion about which tournaments Scarlett is allowed to play in or not. Moderation regarding such in this thread will be less lenient from now on. -semioldguy (p.22) |
On April 28 2013 06:01 shekyeung wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:48 MeriaDoKk wrote: Hes a really good player, hope he recovers soon, good luck!
User was warned for this post Don't be a Dbag and really this has been discussed before and frankly this attitude is rather toxic. I'm curious though, Scarlett was born male, but now chose to be female. Shouldn't it be "it" instead? User was banned for this post. a permaban seems harsh, some people might have a unique perspective on life
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On April 28 2013 06:29 BlackGosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:01 shekyeung wrote:On April 28 2013 05:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:48 MeriaDoKk wrote: Hes a really good player, hope he recovers soon, good luck!
User was warned for this post Don't be a Dbag and really this has been discussed before and frankly this attitude is rather toxic. I'm curious though, Scarlett was born male, but now chose to be female. Shouldn't it be "it" instead? User was banned for this post. a permaban seems harsh, some people might have a unique perspective on life
And English might not be their main language... Might've been an honest semantics question.
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United States5162 Posts
It's not his first meeting with the mods -_-
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On April 28 2013 06:29 BlackGosu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:01 shekyeung wrote:On April 28 2013 05:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:48 MeriaDoKk wrote: Hes a really good player, hope he recovers soon, good luck!
User was warned for this post Don't be a Dbag and really this has been discussed before and frankly this attitude is rather toxic. I'm curious though, Scarlett was born male, but now chose to be female. Shouldn't it be "it" instead? User was banned for this post. a permaban seems harsh, some people might have a unique perspective on life
On April 28 2013 06:34 Shalaiyn wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:29 BlackGosu wrote:On April 28 2013 06:01 shekyeung wrote:On April 28 2013 05:39 Shakattak wrote:On April 28 2013 04:48 MeriaDoKk wrote: Hes a really good player, hope he recovers soon, good luck!
User was warned for this post Don't be a Dbag and really this has been discussed before and frankly this attitude is rather toxic. I'm curious though, Scarlett was born male, but now chose to be female. Shouldn't it be "it" instead? User was banned for this post. a permaban seems harsh, some people might have a unique perspective on life And English might not be their main language... Might've been an honest semantics question. No. When did transgender people stop being people?
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United States5162 Posts
Let's not make this thread about the ban now. More discussion about it should be taken to website feedback.
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On April 28 2013 05:23 Tuthur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote:@whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so. Also, this: + Show Spoiler +On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote:I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply. First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you. Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems. Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case. In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain. They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***). After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT. For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity. Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf(****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf----- I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others. ---- I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time  . On April 28 2013 03:21 aTnClouD wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc? It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background. So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive! You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with. What are you even trying to say here?
Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain.
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On April 28 2013 06:56 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:23 Tuthur wrote:On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote:@whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so. Also, this: + Show Spoiler +On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote:I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply. First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you. Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems. Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case. In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain. They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***). After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT. For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity. Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf(****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf----- I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others. ---- I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time  . On April 28 2013 03:21 aTnClouD wrote:On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc? It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background. So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive! You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with. What are you even trying to say here? Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain. this guy is just a nublet then , seems to be a hate fuelled nerd.
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On April 28 2013 06:56 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 05:23 Tuthur wrote: So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive!
You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with. What are you even trying to say here? Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain. You can't argue with people like this, he must think this is part of a gay agenda or something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if he is wearing a tin foil hat right now.
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On April 28 2013 06:19 Shodaa wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 05:44 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 05:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 04:55 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do. Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender. The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ? NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events. I'll be honest, I don't know much about sport outside of eSport, but by googling I found this: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest News/2011/September/Transgender policy approvedSo yea, seems like they allow trans people if they have done atleast a year of hormone therapy. And to be honest, this is not the right thread for it and arguing about stuff like that would fit more in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402276 some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect. furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey. Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this.
hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in".
its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports.
if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
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Best of luck Scarlett, I hope you get well soon! On the off chance that you see this, elevating the mouse a bit above your wrist rest is supposed to help with wrist issues
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On April 28 2013 07:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:19 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 06:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 05:44 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 05:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 04:55 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do. Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender. The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ? NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events. I'll be honest, I don't know much about sport outside of eSport, but by googling I found this: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest News/2011/September/Transgender policy approvedSo yea, seems like they allow trans people if they have done atleast a year of hormone therapy. And to be honest, this is not the right thread for it and arguing about stuff like that would fit more in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402276 some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect. furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey. Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this. hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in". its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports. if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
yo dude, like i stated above this is not the thread for this discussion so you need to relax. Make your own thread to argue your points , also you don't have to be condescending to him no need to be a dick.
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on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not?
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On April 28 2013 07:17 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2013 06:19 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 06:08 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 05:44 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 05:16 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 28 2013 04:55 Shodaa wrote:On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do. Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender. The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ? NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events. I'll be honest, I don't know much about sport outside of eSport, but by googling I found this: http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Latest News/2011/September/Transgender policy approvedSo yea, seems like they allow trans people if they have done atleast a year of hormone therapy. And to be honest, this is not the right thread for it and arguing about stuff like that would fit more in this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402276 some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect. furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey. Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this. hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in". its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports. if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
Yes, I have a real job and I'm a full time student. What the fuck dude, calm down.
Yes it can be hard, but it is possible. Those policy will most likely change to be more inclusive anyway as more trans tries to apply and pressure those organisations.
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On April 28 2013 07:31 whoso wrote: on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not? Yeah also maybe change how you sit improve posture ect, exercise helps but only if you don't over work your wrists!
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On April 28 2013 07:31 whoso wrote: on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not?
Yea, I'm pretty sure it is the case in KeSPA teams, but even Flash had problem too and needed surgery. Some people seems more prone to this due to genetics unfortunately.
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I know its a sensitive topic but I don't think people should be banned for pointing out a "nuance" about a popular player in Scarlett. I refer to her as a she out of respect but others might have different viewpoints on the matter.
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On April 28 2013 07:56 BrassMonkey27 wrote: I know its a sensitive topic but I don't think people should be banned for pointing out a "nuance" about a popular player in Scarlett. I refer to her as a she out of respect but others might have different viewpoints on the matter.
I'm sorry, but from the point of view of a trans person, when done on purpose, is literally denying them their identity. Respect should matter more than opinion based on prejudice and overall lack of education on this subject. So really, just don't do it and thank you for respecting this 
But anyway, I don't think people get banned over this unless they really are idiots, must of the time it's just a warning if it's the first time, which I think is fair, not because of different opinions but because not everybody is educated on stuff like this.
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Recover quickly, Scarlett! Hopefully you can get back into it quickly.
Also, is this thread some kind of circus? I thought it was about Scarlett taking a break for health-related issues, but it seems like people are more interested in discussing Scarlett-adjacent topics. Anyways...
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Why the fuck are people arguing about her playing in female only tours or not; so irrelevant. Wish for a speedy recovery, if even possible because it sounds bad. It's a shame so many of us gamers suffer from wrist problems but we can always improve something to help our health in the long run.
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United States7488 Posts
This thread is not for discussion about which tournaments Scarlett is allowed to play in or not.
Please try to keep conversation on topic.
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