This thread is not for discussion about which tournaments Scarlett is allowed to play in or not. Moderation regarding such in this thread will be less lenient from now on. -semioldguy (p.22)
After WCS NA/GSTL I will unfortunately be taking an extensive break from Sc2 to deal with my wrist issues
Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
that is sad, but better to rest of now and dominate later then to dominate now and then not dominate later. Wish her a speedy recovery so she can come back and kick lots of butt.
On April 23 2013 14:03 Valon wrote: that is sad, but better to rest now and dominate later then to dominate now and then not dominate later. Wish her a speedy recovery so she can come back and kick lots of butt.
After WCS NA/GSTL I will unfortunately be taking an extensive break from Sc2 to deal with my wrist issues
Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
It's only been several years. It's odd because I don't recall seeing this amount of carpal tunnel cases back in WC3 or SC : BW. I mean they did have seminars for players to make sure they're still exercising those joints after all meh.
I completely understand and support her choice, even as much as it will be terrible to lose my favourite SC II progamer for that long. Best of luck, Scarlett <3
Awful, she was absolutely one of the best foreigners. I must say, though, that the number of players who face career-wretching injuries should really, really be a signal to coaches and managers alike to wake up and take ergonomics and player health much more seriously.
On April 23 2013 14:01 heyoka wrote: From her twitter today.
Scarlett AcerScarlett:
After WCS NA/GSTL I will unfortunately be taking an extensive break from Sc2 to deal with my wrist issues
Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
It's only been several years. It's odd because I don't recall seeing this amount of carpal tunnel cases back in WC3 or SC : BW. I mean they did have seminars for players to make sure they're still exercising those joints after all meh.
The same players who played WC3 and BW went on to play SC2, so they have been playing the games for a long long time.
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
Just out of curiosity, how often does this occur in other sports (injury cause break in play)? Does anyone know off hand some numbers? It's impressive and sad how often this kind of news occurs (usually with terran players, but whatever) in our sc2 world
As dreadful as this news is to a fan of Scarlett's (Like myself). This is all in her best interest. She has made the right decision, a decision which can't have been easy to make. I wish her a speed wrist recovery and hope she returns stronger than ever.
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
What you are calling scarlett and stephano patch zergs? The 2 zergs who did well even before that patch? (especially stephano?). LOL.
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
What you are calling scarlett and stephano patch zergs? The 2 zergs who did well even before that patch? (especially stephano?). LOL.
Just look at his name. He doesn't really care about race objectivity.
Been there for 2 and a half years. It sucks big time. Hopefully she will start doind wrist curls or something once the pain goes away. It would be a pity if she took ages to realize that's the only way to fix it for good. Or at least in my case, that's how it work since I didn't have a surgery. GL Scarlett!
On April 23 2013 14:01 heyoka wrote: From her twitter today.
Scarlett AcerScarlett:
After WCS NA/GSTL I will unfortunately be taking an extensive break from Sc2 to deal with my wrist issues
Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
It's only been several years. It's odd because I don't recall seeing this amount of carpal tunnel cases back in WC3 or SC : BW. I mean they did have seminars for players to make sure they're still exercising those joints after all meh.
The same players who played WC3 and BW went on to play SC2, so they have been playing the games for a long long time.
I'd like to see the ratio between the old skies and the new skies. There's definitely a lot of older skies in the mix. I know only a few KeSPA pro's were brought into the mix like Flash to name one. I really cannot recall that many complaints about their wrists in that ridiculous time period. Not well documented at least. Anyway, they should be stretching their wrists every few hours.
I'd like to see the ratio between the old skies and the new skies. There's definitely a lot of older skies in the mix. I know only a few KeSPA pro's were brought into the mix like Flash to name one. I really cannot recall that many complaints about their wrists in that ridiculous time period. Not well documented at least. Anyway, they should be stretching their wrists every few hours.
To be honest, I did stretch my wrists quite a bit before I got my first injury. But I didn't take many breaks afterwards. I think taking breaks is more important. Yeah, it's nice to stretch your wrists when you take a break, but a break should be a bit longer than that imho.
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
Are you seriously calling Scarlett a patch zerg? That term gets overused so much that its getting ridiculous. Her play has been at an incredibly high level for quite some time now. By far one of the best foreigners, personally I would say by the end it was really only second to Stephano. Was he a patch zerg too?
Hope she still has the passion and enthusiasm to come back after sorting out the injury. One of those players thats impossible to hate even when she's playing against your team and picking them off one by one. Great talent.
I'd like to see the ratio between the old skies and the new skies. There's definitely a lot of older skies in the mix. I know only a few KeSPA pro's were brought into the mix like Flash to name one. I really cannot recall that many complaints about their wrists in that ridiculous time period. Not well documented at least. Anyway, they should be stretching their wrists every few hours.
To be honest, I did stretch my wrists quite a bit before I got my first injury. But I didn't take many breaks afterwards. I think taking breaks is more important. Yeah, it's nice to stretch your wrists when you take a break, but a break should be a bit longer than that imho.
is it even legal for a non-terran to have wrist issues?
bad jokes aside, this really sucks for her, for acer and for her fans. also of course for foreign esports. I hope she can deal quickly with her wrist problems, unlike koreans she at least can take a break without having to fear to never be relevant again.
I wish her luck for a fast regeneration and hope the extensive break is not too long
Is this the first time a player that isn't Terran announce that they have problems with their wrist? Weird that we first hear about this now as well, the pain can't be sever if she can push until a set date. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's not about the wrist but something else..
On April 23 2013 14:47 Tobblish wrote: Is this the first time a player that isn't Terran announce that they have problems with their wrist? Weird that we first hear about this now as well, the pain can't be sever if she can push until a set date. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's not about the wrist but something else..
On April 23 2013 14:47 Tobblish wrote: Is this the first time a player that isn't Terran announce that they have problems with their wrist? Weird that we first hear about this now as well, the pain can't be sever if she can push until a set date. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's not about the wrist but something else..
On April 23 2013 15:06 enemy2010 wrote: I cannot believe that there STILL isn't an ergonomic mouse by Razer or Steelseries.....
it might not be a mouse, just lack of awareness by pros how to ergonomically sit. If you look at scarlett at tournaments, she has a really terrible posture, sometimes she sits with her foot resting on her chair. And while she could get away with it when she was just a casual fan and played 3-4 hours a day, sitting the way she does for 12 hours a day makes the issue worse. like someone else said, pro teams should invest a few bones into teaching their players proper ergonomic positions and make them exercise physically.
On April 23 2013 15:06 enemy2010 wrote: I cannot believe that there STILL isn't an ergonomic mouse by Razer or Steelseries.....
Do you really believe its about the hardware or more specific, the computer hardware instead of the "human hardware". I don't think so. I've played all my life, pretty much 10+ hours in my youth, not a single problem. Also most people tend to think that wrist pain comes from the wrists, which isn't true in I would dare to say at least 50% of the cases.
My friend for example has numb wrists and pain in his hand/fingers, but its origin of that problem is the shoulder.
Sad news and really unfortunate that another player had to suffer from wrist injuries. Hopefully she wont be out for to long and lose her ability to compete at the highest level. Speedy recovery plz!
Darn it... One of the best and most interesting-to-follow foreigners. Nevertheless wrist issues is something that is good be rid of once and for all, you should try different exercises to strengthen your wrists after the inflammation is gone. Get well soon and be back with a vengeance!
On April 23 2013 15:06 enemy2010 wrote: I cannot believe that there STILL isn't an ergonomic mouse by Razer or Steelseries.....
it might not be a mouse, just lack of awareness by pros how to ergonomically sit. If you look at scarlett at tournaments, she has a really terrible posture, sometimes she sits with her foot resting on her chair. And while she could get away with it when she was just a casual fan and played 3-4 hours a day, sitting the way she does for 12 hours a day makes the issue worse. like someone else said, pro teams should invest a few bones into teaching their players proper ergonomic positions and make them exercise physically.
My thoughts exactly, teams should invest into educating players how to do their job ergonomically. Its not only wrists we are talking here about, there can be lots of other problems. I am working with the computer, and I had elbow problems because of bad posture while working. You can have problems with spine too. There are lots of things that can happen if your posture is bad.
and simultaneously the entire world of SC2, (even in Korea) took a deep long sigh, and realized that their only hope, is forced to take a break... eliminating all remaining hope.
This is what happens when you don't deal with the problem when it first occurs. People clearly don't realize the effects of the wrist injury until it's to late. TLO is probably the only one to my knowledge who actually did it the right way. Stopped as soon as it became a problem, got it sorted, had rest, came back slowly, and to my knowledge is fine now?
On April 23 2013 16:40 Pandemona wrote: This is what happens when you don't deal with the problem when it first occurs. People clearly don't realize the effects of the wrist injury until it's to late. TLO is probably the only one to my knowledge who actually did it the right way. Stopped as soon as it became a problem, got it sorted, had rest, came back slowly, and to my knowledge is fine now?
Need keep your wrists healthy!
He also stopped way too late ^_^ , but yah its good again now.
On April 23 2013 16:40 Pandemona wrote: This is what happens when you don't deal with the problem when it first occurs. People clearly don't realize the effects of the wrist injury until it's to late. TLO is probably the only one to my knowledge who actually did it the right way. Stopped as soon as it became a problem, got it sorted, had rest, came back slowly, and to my knowledge is fine now?
Need keep your wrists healthy!
He also stopped way too late ^_^ , but yah its good again now.
Always listen to your body! You only get one... well for now anyway.
Hm sad news.. But of course it's better to take care of it before it's too late. Wish her all the best.
Still it's crazy how widespread the whole wrist issue thing has become. I think there needs to be a higher awareness about this and how to prevent it. I even noticed it on myself when I was playing more, and of course that was nowhere near 6 hours a day or whatever.. I vote for an international wrist problems awareness day or something.
Many Korean progamers have wrists' problems due to overloaded continuous practise everyday, so it finally comes to Scralett. Flash had an small operation on his hand years ago and now Taeja is said to be on vacation cuz of the same wrist problems. I guess they progamers who are playing in the top leagues shall be cared with proficient medical systems in each team. As far as I know, there are some health lessons in Kespa and all the players shall participate to learn it.
What folks need to realize is that the wrist is one of the parts of the human body with which we see the most variation from person to person; it isn't exactly uncommon for someone to have a few wrist bones supplied by one instead of two blood vessels. When a bone in a place as multiplicitous in articulation as the wrist is supplied with blood from only one vessel, this creates prime conditions for immense amounts of pain as the the vessel becomes pressed in sustained awkward positions, and can even lead to outright death of the bone. In a very real sense, not everyone can play starcraft at its highest levels due to this physical limitation, and it would behoove those whose living depend on gaming to get themselves checked out.
Hope Scarlett is able to recover though, she is the hero NA needs.
Awh, good luck with the recovery! Hope your wrists get better soon and hope you get to do lots of fun new activities that won't hurt your wrist during your break! (:
I think MVP got same issue before??? How is it possible? So sad,the only girl out there showing,they(girls) got a place in a world of men and got to leave SC2 for a while.So sad..Good luck and recover as fast as possible.
So sad to hear this. I heard some talking about her wrist problem when I tuned in to the Acer Teamstory cup the other day, but I didn't know it was so bad. All the best to you Scarlett, I wish you a speedy recovery!!
On April 23 2013 14:47 Tobblish wrote: Is this the first time a player that isn't Terran announce that they have problems with their wrist? Weird that we first hear about this now as well, the pain can't be sever if she can push until a set date. + Show Spoiler +
Maybe it's not about the wrist but something else..
Really sad to hear! : ( She's a pretty huge rolemodel for me, and I remember when I started playing properly, it was with the intention of becoming good enough to compete so I could meet her and say hello at a tournament. I hope she gets better soon and is able to play again! Good luck with your recovery, Scarlett!
Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching
I have to agree a lot. With a very fast playstyle in SC2 it's like playing fast guitar solos: You have to stretch your wrist muscles otherwise you will get problems sometime.
On April 23 2013 19:24 Misaka wrote: Does anyone know of an address to which get-well-soon cards can be sent?
xx
Yeah, because sharing the address of a pro player who is a relevant community figure and also female, on a public internet forum, is bound to go well. XD
Well, maybe not her address but if there's like a PO box or something! I dunno! I just feel bad that she's having a bad time, and like, if like, other famous people were having a bad time they'd get tons of get well soon cards from their fans that they can put up around their home, and she only has forum messages!
On April 23 2013 17:56 farvacola wrote: What folks need to realize is that the wrist is one of the parts of the human body with which we see the most variation from person to person; it isn't exactly uncommon for someone to have a few wrist bones supplied by one instead of two blood vessels. When a bone in a place as multiplicitous in articulation as the wrist is supplied with blood from only one vessel, this creates prime conditions for immense amounts of pain as the the vessel becomes pressed in sustained awkward positions, and can even lead to outright death of the bone. In a very real sense, not everyone can play starcraft at its highest levels due to this physical limitation, and it would behoove those whose living depend on gaming to get themselves checked out.
Hope Scarlett is able to recover though, she is the hero NA needs.
LOL and this is false. where you read on the internet about this medical "knowledge" i suggest you find another source
There goes the only NA player who had a realistic chance of cutting with the Koreans present for WCS NA. Maybe someone else can up their game from the region as right now it's not looking too good for the natives.
It's the only sensible decision. If she wants to have a long career, which I will assume she does, taking care this as early as possible is the highest priority, or it could have ramifications in the long run.
I think there is a slight overreaction here, she is not quitting and she doesn't have the bubonic plague, she'll probably be out four months or so. That's two major tournaments, maybe. Scarlett will be fine, and Canada will be fine too.
TT She has been on such a good run since WCS Canada, and even though i was never much of a fan, nobody wants to see a pro's livelihood get interrupted by something they can't fully control. Hope it's a quick recovery!
Her wrist will be attached (hopefully, heh) to her body for the rest of her life. I know so many ex-athletes that suffer from crippling disorders; one that comes to mind is a 4th placing american ex-olympian wrestler I know. He chose that over health and ended up with diabetes and a host of medical issues from arthritis to cirrhosis (from cutting weight, where he also got his diabetes.)
Scarlett, you are making the right choice no doubt; I respect you for this. I respect you for your dedication to your commitments, as per your leave starting in a delayed timing. I question your choice to not leave immediately, however, since we all know this must have been bothering you for far longer than you let on, especially to announce a leave. Not an easy choice for you and no matter your choice you can't make it 100% right without hindsight.
Canada adores you, myself included. Please don't rush it, do what you know is right.
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
Very true. The lifestyle of a pro gamer is very sedentary, and regular exercise of some kind should probably be a requirement from the serious teams. It's about protecting an investment, the player in this case.
Many pro gamers probably don't have a background that involved a lot of physical activity, quite a few likely just played games and went to school, so there could very well be a general lack of knowledge and sound routines when it comes to taking care of your body.
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
Very true. The lifestyle of a pro gamer is very sedentary, and regular exercise of some kind should probably be a requirement from the serious teams. It's about protecting an investment, the player in this case.
Many pro gamers probably don't have a background that involved a lot of physical activity, quite a few likely just played games and went to school, so there could very well be a general lack of knowledge and sound routines when it comes to taking care of your body.
this seems like a movement that should be possible to pull off by the shakers within this community. players need to start taking wrist problems seriously, and with regular exercise its easily prevented.
Sad news, Scarlett always seemed to be one of the most talented foreigners to me. She wasn't as consistent as some players (e.g. Stephano) but had some incredible games against the best koreans alive which is something very few people can boast of.
Sorry to hear that, without a doubt the best NA zerg out there, hell she's one of the best non korean zergs even. Hope the break will help your wrists !
Imho teams HAVE to get their players to do correct exercises. Get the players to a doctor to get advice. It seems like the teams don't care about this at all until the point where it's to bad for them to keep playing. I feel like the only real advice flying around is do the exercises Day9 or this other dude shows in their youtube videos and that's it. It's a shame that there is no real professional advice for the pro players how to handle these issues.
People really need to look more at mouse settings and posture/use if they are having these kinds of issues.. Quite honestly nobody in the pro scene seems to really give a fuck at all. Scarlett had great mechanics and obviously played a lot, it's sad this has to happen though when most likely, it could have been either completely avoided, or made much slower onset or more manageable (able to play twice as many games without any/a lot of pain) from a couple hours of discussion and playing with changes
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
User was temp banned for this post.
So, You get a temp ban for talking about balance issues and patch zergs but you get warnings for using transphobic words. Mods are stupid .... I will take my ban now...
That's a shame, she's one if not my favourite sc2 player. I had to go to my doctor about my wrists because I played too much Starcraft 2 and I took a month and a half break, it did the world of good. So I can understand and hope girlie you come back a.s.a.p. Scarlett <3
p.s. when you come back you should get yourself pink/purple/yellow/green whatever your favourite colour is? wrist supports.
I feel like pros should try to minimize spam and maximize EAPM. Everyone used to laugh at Goody for winning professional games with 100 APM, but I bet his wrists are healthy.
On April 23 2013 21:52 Salient wrote: I feel like pros should try to minimize spam and maximize EAPM. Everyone used to laugh at Goody for winning professional games with 100 APM, but I bet his wrists are healthy.
The motion isn't what's killing you, it's the fact that many progamers has a retarded posture and has little to no strength and flexibility in their hips, CORE-muscles, shoulders and wrists.
On April 23 2013 14:18 Confuse wrote: Just out of curiosity, how often does this occur in other sports (injury cause break in play)? Does anyone know off hand some numbers? It's impressive and sad how often this kind of news occurs (usually with terran players, but whatever) in our sc2 world
Hope she can recover soon.
In actual physical sports, this kind of thing is a major problem. A team's entire season can get wrecked by a bad injury to a key player. Especially in sports like American Football, this kind of thing is both horrendously common and tragic.
Jokes! very unfortunate, but if you don't rest when your wrists hurt then it's only going to cause problems, it's like a footballer playing on an injury, it works in the short term but in hte long run it can ruin their career. Fingers crossed she can come back even better next time, hopefully a gsl attempt who knows.
These progamers really need to take better care of their wrists. Aren't most Kespa pros fine? In terms of their wrist I mean. They need to hold a workshop on proper ergonomics.
On April 23 2013 14:18 Confuse wrote: Just out of curiosity, how often does this occur in other sports (injury cause break in play)? Does anyone know off hand some numbers? It's impressive and sad how often this kind of news occurs (usually with terran players, but whatever) in our sc2 world
Hope she can recover soon.
In actual physical sports, this kind of thing is a major problem. A team's entire season can get wrecked by a bad injury to a key player. Especially in sports like American Football, this kind of thing is both horrendously common and tragic.
In sports, a bad injury can hurt a team. The key difference is most sports related injuries the result of some type of physical trauma. The biggest issue with SC2 injuries is that they are repetitive use injuries. Some sports such tennis(tennis elbow) had this problem however its less frequent as professional athletes learned how to prevent these repetitive use injuries. Its time SC2 pros follow suit and implement measures to keep these type of injuries to a minimum. Gamers in general need to focus a little more on taking care of their bodies, and in turn they will have clearer minds and longer careers.
I hope this is not step back for her cause she get far than many expected and comeback after 6 month to this time will be hard but right health is more important , when she come and be same or even better i be happy
I don't expect Scarlett to really hold true to this, I think she is just saying this as a publicity stunt :D, she'll be back within a week owning it up again. :-P
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
What you are calling scarlett and stephano patch zergs? The 2 zergs who did well even before that patch? (especially stephano?). LOL.
Scarlett did well before the patch? I hate the term patchzerg. It shouldn't exist at all but if it does scarlett is the archetypal patchzerg. I dobt understand people saying she isnt that aren't also saying there is no such thing. Because it being a real thing and her not being one is an absurd contradiction.
On April 23 2013 23:00 CamoPillbox wrote: I hope this is not step back for her cause she get far than many expected and comeback after 6 month to this time will be hard but right health is more important , when she come and be same or even better i be happy
She's an incredibly talented girl, and I have no doubt that she will return better than ever if she gets her wrists fixed. And it's not like she's going to disappear completely from the scene, I think she's too deep into it
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
What you are calling scarlett and stephano patch zergs? The 2 zergs who did well even before that patch? (especially stephano?). LOL.
Scarlett did well before the patch? I hate the term patchzerg. It shouldn't exist at all but if it does scarlett is the archetypal patchzerg. I dobt understand people saying she isnt that aren't also saying there is no such thing. Because it being a real thing and her not being one is an absurd contradiction.
Well, when some of the bigger names, who has thousands of followers on Twattor, in the foreign scene loses and blames it on a patch, it's easy for the band wagoners to hop on the train.
So sad........ but i bet this: players need to go to the gim more so they can do somme ex.. cuz if u stay 8h a day on chair and play intensive game like sc2 ur gonna prob.. get wrist injuries . If i play for 4-5 h my wrist hurts and i don t play evry day doing that for more h 6-7 days got to hurt.
On April 23 2013 23:25 Nachtwind wrote: Really would like to see a study why people get those wrist injurys with mouse/keyboard and what could be done against it.
There's a lot of research of office related injuries (people sitting at computers all day). I guess this is similar but even worse. It's probably a variation of training your arm/hand muscles (before you start to have problems), sitting in a ergonomic position with as much support as possible for your wrist and such and warming up regularly. Even so it's probably hard to prevent in the long run. Maybe there's some kind of braces you can use while playing.
Does the mouse arm/hand or the keyboard arm/hand does get injured? I think it´s the mouse hand but not sure. And boxer i think had something in his shoulder but also not sure. :D
Really hope that any team with a player suffering from this advises him/her to take a break for medical attention. Is it not true that any doctor would tell Taeja and MVP to stop playing for a while?
That sucks. One thing I always do since my wc 3 days (not a pro or anything at either game, but I was pretty good) is every like 2-3 games I get up and walk around stretch my arms out, my legs for 5-10 mins. While waiting for a game to be found I usually will just stretch my wrists and fingers out.
On April 23 2013 23:40 Doc.Rivers wrote: Really hope that any team with a player suffering from this advises him/her to take a break for medical attention. Is it not true that any doctor would tell Taeja and MVP to stop playing for a while?
"any doctor" ... i'd rather see an orthopedic surgeon or a physiotherapist about this issue rather than a GP.
usually the kinds of injuries "gamers" get require "eccentric" muscle strengthening around the injury.
its usually "eccentric" or muscle lengthening motion that causes the kinds of injuries your hard core keyboardist will get.
Hope you'll find your time to cure out and don't let it get to bad.
Trying to imagine how bad this wrist injury type of thing would be spread out if we still had the old style mouses with balls and no one caring for smooth and easy movement on the ground.
Is it generally the mouse hand that gets affected (for gamers), the keyboard hand or both? I imagine it's the mouse hand... but I have no idea. edit: p.s. get better scarlett!
That's no fun. She is one of my favorite players, good mannered and extremely humble. Please do what you have to do and get well soon Scarlett. Hopefully you'll get better sooner than later.
On April 23 2013 14:01 heyoka wrote: From her twitter today. Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
dont get me wrong, but there is a mistake, or you wrote 'she' and 'her' consciously instead of 'he' and 'his' for some reason?
On April 23 2013 14:01 heyoka wrote: From her twitter today. Seems she will be trying to sort out some health issues that have cropped up in a lot of SC2 players over the years, starting when GSTL concludes and her participation in WCS NA this season is over. She told me it would be something like 2-6 months before she expected to be able to play seriously again.
dont get me wrong, but there is a mistake, or you wrote 'she' and 'her' consciously instead of 'he' and 'his' for some reason?
Scarlett is female, so female pronouns are appropriate.
I hope it's not the carpal tunnel, it already destroyed too many pros.
I'm assuming there is people here who spend a lot of time with a mouse not only because of starcraft, so it think it could appropriate to post some healthy advices here.
Can someone make a thread about proper posture, keyboard/mouse placement, hand position for both hands, etc. Just an all you need to know guide to avoid wrist injury.
Dang, it seems that wrists injuries and other gaming related injuries are taking out the strong players nowadays. This is going to be a problem for Axiom-Acer in the GSTL.
On April 23 2013 17:56 farvacola wrote: What folks need to realize is that the wrist is one of the parts of the human body with which we see the most variation from person to person; it isn't exactly uncommon for someone to have a few wrist bones supplied by one instead of two blood vessels. When a bone in a place as multiplicitous in articulation as the wrist is supplied with blood from only one vessel, this creates prime conditions for immense amounts of pain as the the vessel becomes pressed in sustained awkward positions, and can even lead to outright death of the bone. In a very real sense, not everyone can play starcraft at its highest levels due to this physical limitation, and it would behoove those whose living depend on gaming to get themselves checked out.
Hope Scarlett is able to recover though, she is the hero NA needs.
LOL and this is false. where you read on the internet about this medical "knowledge" i suggest you find another source
Sorry, but I've seen wrists taken apart during autopsies, and what I'm saying is backed up by the lit. Pisiform (wrist bone) anatomy Some people can even have extra bones in their wrist.
On April 24 2013 01:45 smOOthMayDie wrote: Can someone make a thread about proper posture, keyboard/mouse placement, hand position for both hands, etc. Just an all you need to know guide to avoid wrist injury.
On April 24 2013 01:54 TinyPanda wrote: Dang, it seems that wrists injuries and other gaming related injuries are taking out the strong players nowadays. This is going to be a problem for Axiom-Acer in the GSTL.
I think they'll be fine without her. They still have Ryung and MMA.
Hmm strange, i thought it was only terran problem :D
Anyway, it would be great if she could share her methods of recovery and how effective it is. Would help other people, now that i think about it, TLO did similar thing but no information available of how he did it and if he managed to solve it or just improve it.
On April 24 2013 01:23 aTcho wrote: Like TLO said : stretching and good posture help a good deal to prevent this kind of issue.
I was gonna post that picture of Scarlett playing with her feet up on the desk but when I googled "Scarlett feet up" all I got were a bunch of pics of Scarlett Johannson's feet o.O
Anyway, that sucks big time. At least we can still see her play in WCS. Speedy recovery Scarlett!!
really unfortunate that progamers have to suffer these types of injuries.. wish it wasn't so.. that way we could always see them tear up the battlefield in peak condition.
Ive had wrist issues, they serisouly suck and are very difficult to deal with Thankfully ive been able to make adjustments in my habits and i no longer have wrist injuries
On April 24 2013 04:04 Butterednuts wrote: 2-6 months for a wrist injury? Seems like an awful long time for just an injury.
Tendon damage is a very sensitive injury, it doesn't heal nearly as easily as damaged muscle. An ACL tear in the knee is a similar type of injury, and it can end careers in an instant.
There seriously needs to be more research about wrist injuries around starcraft/ other video games and especially medical prevention and healthy habits. The number of pros with wrist injuries is truly alarming.
On April 23 2013 14:08 WigglingSquid wrote: Awful, she was absolutely one of the best foreigners. I must say, though, that the number of players who face career-wretching injuries should really, really be a signal to coaches and managers alike to wake up and take ergonomics and player health much more seriously.
Hell yes. One thing that drives me completely mad is when I see tournaments and coaches allowing players on chairs/desks that are set up to destroy your wrists. I mean stuff like...
-No arm support on your chair. So you end up putting most of your arm weight on your wrists.
-Desks that encourage you to rest your wrists on the sharp edge of the desk. This is TERRIBLE for your wrists. Think about the tendons going through the tunnels (yes the carpal tunnels, etc.) in your wrist, then pinching them half shut with a 90 degree hard wooden object. Figure that will irritate the crap out of them? Yes it will.
You need to place your hands such that you are not putting a lot of stress or pressure on the wrist area itself. One way to do this is to get wrist pads but put the meaty parts of your palms/thumbs on them... NOT your wrists. Another way is to have a chair that allows you to put your forearms on the chair arms 90% of the time while playing.
Other things that are supposed to help...
And take lots of breaks. Exercise (like stretching and strength training for arms/hands). Don't get dehydrated. Don't overdo salt.
If you are getting irritation in the pinky and 2nd to last finger, I'd concentrate more on shoulder and neck fatigue. Practice good posture, stretch a lot, build up some strength. Take lots of breaks.
Sometimes you have to take a couple of weeks off of the computer. Better that than ruin your wrists for life.
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
User was temp banned for this post.
calling the best foreigns patchzerg ? stephano and scarlett ? xD they was good way before and even now beat MVP ... well your a troll posting trollstuff why i argue ?
i rly hope it goes away without long break shes the god damn ONLY hope after stephano leaves us to fight the koreans, she can beat them, no one else!!!
On April 24 2013 04:25 Ry2D2 wrote: There seriously needs to be more research about wrist injuries around starcraft/ other video games and especially medical prevention and healthy habits. The number of pros with wrist injuries is truly alarming.
There has been all the research that is needed, people just refuse to educate themselves on it, thinking that it won't happen to them. Well, newsflash, it does.
Wish teams would take health more seriously, you can't go off and practice 12 hours a day with bad posture, bad diet, and little exercise without this stuff happening.
Wow just wow ^ just leave your thoughts to yourself, whatever happens Scarlett is still best :/ You need to let go and let God.
Anyway I really think the most amazing thing to come out of this is that Scarlett wins enough money to pay for surgery and then DEMUSLIM replaces Scarlett in WCSNA!
Please Blizzard for the love of Jesus do NOT replace Scarlett with a Korean if she makes top 5 that would be the most lame thing ever, do what is right and give us DeMuslim, the people demand it!
On April 23 2013 14:04 pieisamazing wrote: That's a shame. Hope he recovers quickly!
User was warned for this post
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this? Technically, she is a he right? I really respect Scarlett and have never had an issue with the choice to 'make the change'.... but let's not go overboard with the P.C. here. It set's us up for a slippery slope.
Anyway.. really sucks that she will need to take this break.. its poor timing too...as we need more NA players that are playing at the very top levels. Get well soon Scarlett and come back to kick some Korean ass! (speaking of not being P.C. )
well better the break is taken now then continuing to play on it and end up needing surgery like flash did, gl hope you can recover fully rather soon!!
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this?
Well 9.5 times out of 10, it's an asshole trying to make a jab and dodge punishment, an incredibly often recurring theme
Who the hell calls "scarlett" a he, lacking knowledge of the situation, anyway?
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this?
Well 9.5 times out of 10, it's an asshole trying to make a jab and dodge punishment, an incredibly often recurring theme
Who the hell calls "scarlett" a he, lacking knowledge of the situation, anyway?
Just ignore him, he's technically just trying to get his own little jab in
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this?
Well 9.5 times out of 10, it's an asshole trying to make a jab and dodge punishment, an incredibly often recurring theme
Who the hell calls "scarlett" a he, lacking knowledge of the situation, anyway?
Sexual orientation / preference / w/e shouldn't be an issue to anyone but the people involving it. As far as I (and I think the majority) are concerned. Scarlett is a great player and seems like a really nice person. what she is or isn't shouldn't even be a topic. Hope you get better scarlett! Big fan of your play here and I play terran!
On April 23 2013 14:04 pieisamazing wrote: That's a shame. Hope he recovers quickly!
User was warned for this post
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this? Technically, she is a he right? I really respect Scarlett and have never had an issue with the choice to 'make the change'.... but let's not go overboard with the P.C. here. It set's us up for a slippery slope.
Anyway.. really sucks that she will need to take this break.. its poor timing too...as we need more NA players that are playing at the very top levels. Get well soon Scarlett and come back to kick some Korean ass! (speaking of not being P.C. )
end.
While I agree with you from a technical and logical standpoint, you have to take such perspectives with a grain of salt when you post on these boards, particularly when such logic revolves around an individual considered to be a celebrity by everyone involved (well, excluding the many trolls in this thread), and the fact that the rules amount to 'this is our house, if we don't like you, you go."
Also, considering the even simpler fact that every single poster in this thread that got moderated was trolling, pure and simple.
Best wishes to Scarlett, I am sure she will be back in full force soon enough!
On April 23 2013 14:04 pieisamazing wrote: That's a shame. Hope he recovers quickly!
User was warned for this post
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this? Technically, she is a he right? I really respect Scarlett and have never had an issue with the choice to 'make the change'.... but let's not go overboard with the P.C. here. It set's us up for a slippery slope.
No, you obviously don't respect Scarlett. There is no slippery slope, and we aren't going overboard with the P.C.
This is about respecting another human being. She wants to be called she, because it is who she is. Refusing to do so is disrespectful. Getting "technical" is disrespectful.
Really sad to hear this. From my experience watching her compete during the various events she's attended, most recently GSTL, I feel as though that even despite being shy at times she is a great personality for our scene and I always enjoyed rooting for her.
Of course it's a shame and I'd rather this wasn't the case, but of course your health always takes precedent and hopefully she'll come back stronger and better than ever. How cool would it be if she came back in a few months and started dominating again, but even more-so this time. I think its entirely possible and I look forward to it.
I wish you the best Scarlett, thanks for all the great games and thankyou for never backing down and pushing forward despite all the adversity and ignorance you face on a daily basis. You're an inspiration to not just people in your specific situation, but to all of us who face adversity in our lives.
On April 23 2013 14:04 pieisamazing wrote: That's a shame. Hope he recovers quickly!
User was warned for this post
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this? Technically, she is a he right? I really respect Scarlett and have never had an issue with the choice to 'make the change'.... but let's not go overboard with the P.C. here. It set's us up for a slippery slope.
Anyway.. really sucks that she will need to take this break.. its poor timing too...as we need more NA players that are playing at the very top levels. Get well soon Scarlett and come back to kick some Korean ass! (speaking of not being P.C. )
end.
While I agree with you from a technical and logical standpoint, you have to take such perspectives with a grain of salt when you post on these boards, particularly when such logic revolves around an individual considered to be a celebrity by everyone involved (well, excluding the many trolls in this thread), and the fact that the rules amount to 'this is our house, if we don't like you, you go."
Also, considering the even simpler fact that every single poster in this thread that got moderated was trolling, pure and simple.
Best wishes to Scarlett, I am sure she will be back in full force soon enough!
It is common courtesy to address others as they wish to be addressed within reason; to even question this right reeks of self-important bullshit. Your knowledge of what constitutes a "technical and logical" approach to social language and the propriety of identity critique in the public space is laughably childish. Objectively, basic human regard trumps whatever half-hearted appeal to "science" you may think you are speaking to. Grow up.
On April 24 2013 13:43 farvacola wrote: Objectively, basic human regard trumps whatever half-hearted appeal to "science" you may think you are speaking to. Grow up.
You're invoking science to objectify human interaction while at the same time dissing science for objectifying humans. Classy.
(the word you are looking for might be "inter-subjectively", but certainly not "objectively")
On April 24 2013 13:43 farvacola wrote: Objectively, basic human regard trumps whatever half-hearted appeal to "science" you may think you are speaking to. Grow up.
You're invoking science to objectify human interaction while at the same time dissing science for objectifying humans. Classy.
(the word you are looking for might be "inter-subjectively", but certainly not "objectively", otherwise you are implying that interaction between humans is something that can be examined like an object which seems at least partially to run counter to your point)
It doesn't run counter to my point at all; on a basic and objective level, human society has developed a standard with which we address one another in common space in pursuit of a productive social experience, and this standard supersedes whatever meaningless nod towards science or whatever "technical and logical" thing one might think important as they use it to effectively call someone a name. It is logical to allow each and every person a degree of agency in the determination of their title, and it is vulgar and rude to act otherwise.
at the start when I first saw her was the woman league where she kinda dominated the whole tournament and I was feeling quite upset that she was a trans because imo, it has an unfair advantage over the other competitiors. Everyone was talking about how good she was, her creep spread etc but I thought that should be normal since she is at a different level, creep spread is just a bonus since she is facing less pressure etc. I still am feeling a bit complicated about it. Not to mention it was the zerg donimating era, I thought she would eventually faded out in the scene. but then I watched her play against some of the best players in the world and she really impressed me a lot. While she didn't get as much results as I expected, I really enjoyed her games and definitly one of the best foreigners out there right now.
I hope her rest will go smoothly and come back stronger and faster than before.
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
What kinds of stretches/excercise? I'm willing to bet a lot of this is genetic based.
On April 23 2013 14:08 skyflyfish wrote: heart of swarm comes, the queen falls
it really is questionable why now that infestors are fixed the patch zergs are quickly going away. first stephano announcing he is going to quit soon and now scarlett with wrist problems out of nowhere. i wish her a speedy recovery but i honestly don't think it matters really.
User was temp banned for this post.
So, You get a temp ban for talking about balance issues and patch zergs but you get warnings for using transphobic words. Mods are stupid .... I will take my ban now...
User was temp banned for this post.
ban me too, I don't know why i want to but it seems to be the current fad.
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
What kinds of stretches/excercise? I'm willing to bet a lot of this is genetic based.
On April 24 2013 14:19 ETisME wrote: at the start when I first saw her was the woman league where she kinda dominated the whole tournament and I was feeling quite upset that she was a trans because imo, it has an unfair advantage over the other competitiors. Everyone was talking
Do you actually think men have some innate advantage over women in SC2?
On April 24 2013 14:19 ETisME wrote: at the start when I first saw her was the woman league where she kinda dominated the whole tournament and I was feeling quite upset that she was a trans because imo, it has an unfair advantage over the other competitiors. Everyone was talking
Do you actually think men have some innate advantage over women in SC2?
why would you want to noob bash anyway? Oh yeah, free money. Imo, more men practice sc2, so more men will be good at it.
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
What kinds of stretches/excercise? I'm willing to bet a lot of this is genetic based.
On April 24 2013 14:19 ETisME wrote: at the start when I first saw her was the woman league where she kinda dominated the whole tournament and I was feeling quite upset that she was a trans because imo, it has an unfair advantage over the other competitiors. Everyone was talking
Do you actually think men have some innate advantage over women in SC2?
well they do
I really liked her play, hopefully she recovers sooner than expected. Wrist problems can generally play few games before hurting right, or it 100% quit?
On April 23 2013 18:54 Liquid`TLO wrote: Not surprised, bad posture while playing. Possibly not enough exercise and stretching Pro-gamers need to take better care, it's always self inflicted TT
We'll have dozens of retirements in the next 1-2 years if people don't change their lifestyle. So many people have problems who never say it publicly too
What kinds of stretches/excercise? I'm willing to bet a lot of this is genetic based.
why would it be genetic o.O
the thickness of your tendons and ligaments and other connective tissue is partially due to genetics. the thicker the structure the more force it can withstand before a micro-fracture occurs.
the cause of any soft tissue injury ... it could be genetic or it could be improper use of the body part....
or it could be some combination of both.
saying 'its just genetics" is an oversimplification though.
I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 23 2013 14:08 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Someone who isn't Terran having wrist issues? Dang
Seriously though, this is too bad Serious loss for Acer
David Kim and his team should think about pro players wrists when designing the races. At the moment protoss seems pretty imba in term of wrist problem
Edit: Jokes appart, sad to see another great player quit for some time. I really hope she will recover very soon and show us some great level again. GL Scarlett !
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
Thank you. I want to copy this and paste it onto every other troll-ridden Scarlett thread on reddit.
Getting back on topic -- while I'm no doctor and I've never seen Scarlett's wrists, it sounds like she's suffering from severe tendonitis caused by excessive repetition or improper muscle usage and posture. Tendonitis can be fixed and effectively managed so long as it's taken seriously and treated as soon as possible. Ignoring the symptoms or "pushing through it" can cause permanent complications which could require surgery.
Here's a useful overview for anyone who's interested:
I'd like to say that i am really sad about this, and i wish Scarlett a full recovery as soon as possible, but if you need to quit, then quit, and if you don't then make sure you take as long as you need.
I'd also like to say thank you to Befree for your very informative post, that i have spoilered for its off topicness. + Show Spoiler +
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
Doesn't surprise me at all considering the posture she has when she's playing (judging by the times i've seen her). People need to take e-sports a bit more serious regarding things like this, if you continually sit in a weird way and do no preemtive work you will eventually get injured when you play day after day.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 25 2013 02:18 Gr33d wrote: I'm glad that Scarlett is gone. Don't like Zerg, don't like the interviews and I don't like the die hard P.C. in every game / thread.
The sad thing about pc whiners is that the term assumes that everyone who is not an ignorant bigot only pretends not to be an ignorant bigot, as if that was everything a person could ever be and it was impossible not to feel hostile towards people one happens to perceive as different. So sad.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
On April 25 2013 02:18 Gr33d wrote: I'm glad that Scarlett is gone. Don't like Zerg, don't like the interviews and I don't like the die hard P.C. in every game / thread.
How delicate of you to spend 15 precious seconds of your life to pour some hatred here.
On April 25 2013 02:18 Gr33d wrote: I'm glad that Scarlett is gone. Don't like Zerg, don't like the interviews and I don't like the die hard P.C. in every game / thread.
You'll be sad to know that Scarlett is not gone then, she is rehabilitating an injury. It happens in sports all the time. She'll be back to aggravate you for some inexplicable reason in a few months.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
On April 25 2013 02:18 Gr33d wrote: I'm glad that Scarlett is gone. Don't like Zerg, don't like the interviews and I don't like the die hard P.C. in every game / thread.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
It doesn't matter if some foreigners placed higher than her at IPL4 - when an UNKNOWN player to knocks out Koreans AND Demuslim, it's noteworthy. Also, people that don't "deserve" their fame tend to lose it quickly, while Scarlett has done exactly the opposite. Compare her results to, say, Huk or Idra, and one wonders why anyone would pay attention to them over her.
Sorry to hear her about the wrist problem. Hopefully the recovery is speedy.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
On April 25 2013 02:47 TheDwf wrote: How delicate of you to spend 15 precious seconds of your life to pour some hatred here.
Sorry, I did not read the part in the first post where it says "only allowed to post here if you like Scarlett".
I would equally like if (for example) Naniwa would stop playing. Thats not "hatred", thats just my opinion and I did not insult anyone.
Still your post was incredibly disrepectful considering the circumstances. If you were not aware about this, it is commonly known as politeness not to publicly rejoice about bad things happening to people regarding their health, even if you don't like them.
I'm not sure what it is about Scarlett that invokes such hostility. She seems like a quiet, polite person, never heard about anyone getting BM'd by her, doesn't talk shit, she's not a cheesy player. I just don't get it-
On April 25 2013 03:02 McBengt wrote: I'm not sure what it is about Scarlett that invokes such hostility. She seems like a quiet, polite person, never heard about anyone getting BM'd by her, doesn't talk shit, she's not a cheesy player. I just don't get it-
Some people are just assholes. Not much anyone can do about it.
Well this sucks. Scarlett is one of my favoirte players to watch. She has amazing macro and will be missed while she lets her wrist heal up. Hopefully she will come back as strong as ever!
On April 23 2013 14:08 WigglingSquid wrote: Awful, she was absolutely one of the best foreigners. I must say, though, that the number of players who face career-wretching injuries should really, really be a signal to coaches and managers alike to wake up and take ergonomics and player health much more seriously.
Agreed- my back issues only went away when I started weight and cardio training, making my body fit enough to game for extended play sessions. Stretching only helped a little- it was only when I started working out that I was able to handle gaming that hard.
I would be interested to see if there has been a study into which exercises can help alleviate the wrist problems from RSI like this. I wonder if explosive/dynamic training like crossfit or plyometrics would be good for pro gamers.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
IPL got her name on the map--but no one really talked *that* much about her until she won what should have been Huk's easy win trophy. And when she outdid both Idra and Vibe in the WCS North American finals it suddenly became clear that she was the best player in the North American scene and because of that I got fucking hyped for her as well as a lot of other people.
On April 24 2013 14:19 ETisME wrote: at the start when I first saw her was the woman league where she kinda dominated the whole tournament and I was feeling quite upset that she was a trans because imo, it has an unfair advantage over the other competitiors. Everyone was talking about how good she was, her creep spread etc but I thought that should be normal since she is at a different level, creep spread is just a bonus since she is facing less pressure etc. I still am feeling a bit complicated about it. Not to mention it was the zerg donimating era, I thought she would eventually faded out in the scene. but then I watched her play against some of the best players in the world and she really impressed me a lot. While she didn't get as much results as I expected, I really enjoyed her games and definitly one of the best foreigners out there right now.
I hope her rest will go smoothly and come back stronger and faster than before.
Is there something about different testosterone and estrogen levels that gives women a disadvantage? I'm confused by your logic on this. Sounds like everytime people said there was an unfair advantage, they couldn't even prove what that advantage was without being misogynistic.
On April 25 2013 03:02 McBengt wrote: I'm not sure what it is about Scarlett that invokes such hostility. She seems like a quiet, polite person, never heard about anyone getting BM'd by her, doesn't talk shit, she's not a cheesy player. I just don't get it-
It's hard to understand ignorance unless you were once ignorant, and even then it's hard to understand it in retrospect. I was once a very ignorant person in regards to many social issues at a younger age, parroting my father's opinions, and now have changed quite a bit for the better. Looking back I can't explain away my ignorance very abruptly.
Sorry really not trying to derail, just sick and tired of this crap... Hope everything goes well for her.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
IPL got her name on the map--but no one really talked *that* much about her until she won what should have been Huk's easy win trophy. And when she outdid both Idra and Vibe in the WCS North American finals it suddenly became clear that she was the best player in the North American scene and because of that I got fucking hyped for her as well as a lot of other people.
You definitely weren't around...when she beat Terious and Demuslim people were fapping on her results and because she was a girl when Illusion did much better...this is why i kinda understand the hate and the talk about her sex. If she was a woman, she'd be exactly like Illusion, Vibe or Lucifron. It didn't help her case that she had many fans despite a patchzzery play when other europeans were hated for it.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
IPL got her name on the map--but no one really talked *that* much about her until she won what should have been Huk's easy win trophy. And when she outdid both Idra and Vibe in the WCS North American finals it suddenly became clear that she was the best player in the North American scene and because of that I got fucking hyped for her as well as a lot of other people.
You definitely weren't around...when she beat Terious and Demuslim people were fapping on her results and because she was a girl when Illusion did much better...this is why i kinda understand the hate and the talk about her sex. If she was a woman, she'd be exactly like Illusion, Vibe or Lucifron. It didn't help her case that she had many fans despite a patchzzery play when other europeans were hated for it.
You're making it sound like it's somehow forbidden to argue that a player is overrated. It isn't, and Scarlett isn't the only one who obviously gets some extra attention for personality or other non skill-related reasons. But you can only make your case that she's overrated by discussing her gameplay and results, which is all Magpie asked you to do.
Also, fame and popularity aren't automatically synchronized with skill, not to mention the problem of defining "skill" objectively. People can love and celebrate whoever the hell they want. If you think they should distribute their love according to your criteria, maybe you should attack them, not her.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
This needs to be a modnote on every thread about Trans ever. Please.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
IPL got her name on the map--but no one really talked *that* much about her until she won what should have been Huk's easy win trophy. And when she outdid both Idra and Vibe in the WCS North American finals it suddenly became clear that she was the best player in the North American scene and because of that I got fucking hyped for her as well as a lot of other people.
You definitely weren't around...when she beat Terious and Demuslim people were fapping on her results and because she was a girl when Illusion did much better...this is why i kinda understand the hate and the talk about her sex. If she was a woman, she'd be exactly like Illusion, Vibe or Lucifron. It didn't help her case that she had many fans despite a patchzzery play when other europeans were hated for it.
An unknown player (people knew about illusion) got put on the big screen and did well. She then proceeded to do really well. She then proceeded to win WCS Canada, WCS North America and was a heavy hitter with Nerchio in team Acer. She spread creep like a Korean and was aggressive and moved around the map.
illusion almost doing well and then falling short was a regular enough occurrence. new player doing well was ripe with possibility. And when she delivered is when her popularity surged.
She did get overly praised and received extremely high and undeserved attention mostly because of her gender at first (her surge in popularity definetely happened before she won anything of note) , but Scarlett proved herself to be deserving of much of it in the following months, so it's all good in my eyes. I hope she gets better, I have been recovering from chronic tendonitis myself, it can get tough if you do not pay proper care, though it's certainly more manageable than CTS.
On April 23 2013 14:04 pieisamazing wrote: That's a shame. Hope he recovers quickly!
User was warned for this post
Okay.. I need to address this. Probably not the best thread to do so and I understand if its moved or warned... but seriously? A user will get a warning for this? Technically, she is a he right? I really respect Scarlett and have never had an issue with the choice to 'make the change'.... but let's not go overboard with the P.C. here. It set's us up for a slippery slope.
Anyway.. really sucks that she will need to take this break.. its poor timing too...as we need more NA players that are playing at the very top levels. Get well soon Scarlett and come back to kick some Korean ass! (speaking of not being P.C. )
end.
User was warned for this post
mods don't want people discussing sex on scarlet's thread, its been stated somewhere, but its still fun to see people trying to troll the mods by getting their 1 smurf accounts banned. I bet when someone opens a scarlet thread the mods must ctrl + F the words "he" and "his" and just start banning people.
On April 25 2013 05:03 IshinShishi wrote: She did get overly praised and received extremely high and undeserved attention mostly because of her gender at first (her surge in popularity definetely happened before she won anything of note) , but Scarlett proved herself to be deserving of much of it in the following months, so it's all good in my eyes. I hope she gets better, I have been recovering from chronic tendonitis myself, it can get tough if you do not pay proper care, though it's certainly more manageable than CTS.
I agree with you, her IPL run did get her a bit too much fame. We Canucks wanted someone to take over that void that Huk left! But winning WCS NA & Canada only losing a combined 3 maps cemented my and evidently your view that she's a boss.
I'm not the biggest fan of Scarlett (nothing to do with her being transgender, as I can kind of see where this thread has been going) but I do hope she has a speedy recovery. She is (indisputably) one of the best foreigners. I believe she won WCS Canada without dropping a map? and won WCS NA only losing one map to TheOgnis.
One thing I am wondering though, she is planning on finishing her participation in WCS NA according to the OP. If she does well (which is fairly likely) she could still be playing for a month or more. Hopefully her wrists can stand up to the practice she will need for that, or perhaps she assumes because of her bad wrist condition that she will get eliminated early.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
All the best Scarlett your doing great in Korea, hope the injuries aren"t too bad and that your pause won't be too long!
LYNCH HIM
but seriously, it should not be TL's business as to what Scarlett's sexual status is. Starcraft ability, game ethics and personality are all legitimate avenues of criticism of a player, but personal issues certainly aren't.
The problem is that some people believe(legitimately) that she gained fame mainly by being a female player, and eventhough some players had better results than her in IPL4(went far in the open bracket, beating some koreans), they haven't been as recognized as Scarlett.
So no, your argument is invald.
And here I thought it was because she got 1st in Canada, 1st in US, beat MVP in proleague, was part of the nerchio/scarlett duo pre-MMA, etc...
What? You don't follow the scene, do you? Everybody started following her because of her IPL4 run, eventhough some players had better results(foreign players in the open bracket)...Yeah she got 1st US, but Suppy went the furthest in WCS global finals(and nobody seem to remember him)... as for beating MVP, MVP is in code B...
IPL got her name on the map--but no one really talked *that* much about her until she won what should have been Huk's easy win trophy. And when she outdid both Idra and Vibe in the WCS North American finals it suddenly became clear that she was the best player in the North American scene and because of that I got fucking hyped for her as well as a lot of other people.
You definitely weren't around...when she beat Terious and Demuslim people were fapping on her results and because she was a girl when Illusion did much better...this is why i kinda understand the hate and the talk about her sex. If she was a woman, she'd be exactly like Illusion, Vibe or Lucifron. It didn't help her case that she had many fans despite a patchzzery play when other europeans were hated for it.
An unknown player (people knew about illusion) got put on the big screen and did well. She then proceeded to do really well. She then proceeded to win WCS Canada, WCS North America and was a heavy hitter with Nerchio in team Acer. She spread creep like a Korean and was aggressive and moved around the map.
illusion almost doing well and then falling short was a regular enough occurrence. new player doing well was ripe with possibility. And when she delivered is when her popularity surged.
I don't think there is much debate ... she's the best player to come out of North America right now.
D: poor Scarlett. I hope she recovers fast so we can see more foreigners doing well :D Maybe she can get revenge on Yoda when she returns! I wonder what she'll do about WCS though...):
On April 25 2013 10:19 Darkhoarse wrote: I'm not the biggest fan of Scarlett (nothing to do with her being transgender, as I can kind of see where this thread has been going) but I do hope she has a speedy recovery. She is (indisputably) one of the best foreigners. I believe she won WCS Canada without dropping a map? and won WCS NA only losing one map to TheOgnis.
One thing I am wondering though, she is planning on finishing her participation in WCS NA according to the OP. If she does well (which is fairly likely) she could still be playing for a month or more. Hopefully her wrists can stand up to the practice she will need for that, or perhaps she assumes because of her bad wrist condition that she will get eliminated early.
"I'll just play one more game and I'll rest my wrist.... WCS Championship title later... Okay I'll rest my wrist" LIKE A BOSS!
damn wrist injury in eSports is like an ACL injury in popular sports... I honestly think its all the spamming that causes carpal tunnel or whatever. maybe pros should "chill out" during practice and apm spam a lil less lol
Really feels like she is the only foreigner with credible korean-slaying capability right now. I'll chime in with the others about a speedy and full recovery.
I always hoped HuK would have a good shot to retain #1 for Canada, now that time has come. Not that I hate Scarlett or anything, I just like HuK more.. I remember the MLG run, the code S runs, oh my god.. those were good times.
I guess feel better Sasha, but I will be cheering for Chris to dethrone you, sorry.
On April 26 2013 23:12 iMOOrtal wrote: I always hoped HuK would have a good shot to retain #1 for Canada, now that time has come. Not that I hate Scarlett or anything, I just like HuK more.. I remember the MLG run, the code S runs, oh my god.. those were good times.
I guess feel better Sasha, but I will be cheering for Chris to dethrone you, sorry.
He'll need it. No disrespect to Huk, he's an old school veteran and a great player, but Scarlett pretty much beat him like a rented mule every time they've played.
hope she recovers fast. her performance was certainly impressive.
i agree, when people still adress her as a male thats disrespectful and mods rightfully punish that. however, i can only hope this doesnt mean people are moreover not allowed to discuss about how transgender status in general may or may not affect performance, moreover, if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc? because that heavy censorship indeed would be worrysome to say the least. even though i guess this is not the right thread to do so
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Scarlett has the brain of a man, which is different from the brain of a woman, and so far results-wise has been proven to be way more efficient to play Starcraft. That means that if we want to be truly fair she shouldn't compete in tournaments where only girls are allowed like she did so far. As much as she deserves respect as anyone else for which gender she identifies with it's not right that she participated in several female only tournaments.
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Scarlett has the brain of a man, which is different from the brain of a woman, and so far results-wise has been proven to be way more efficient to play Starcraft. That means that if we want to be truly fair she shouldn't compete in tournaments where only girls are allowed like she did so far. As much as she deserves respect as anyone else for which gender she identifies with it's not right that she participated in several female only tournaments.
Mindblowing ignorance being spewed from aTnCloud. Who would have thunk it?
I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
Cloud, please read this. Posts like you just made reflect extremely poorly on you.
@whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances.
Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background.
in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
but what's important is how a bunch of whiny babies with no tournament results can show off how they're living in the dark ages
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
I don't like Scarlett going into female only tourney and here's why: She is TOO GOOD. It might sound funny but she is way ahead of every other female players. I remember Aphrodite said it's like playing against a male player. (interview or somewhere) It is not saying Scarlett is male and she is good, it means she is at a completely different level. What is the point to have a female only tourney if Scarlett will always dominate everyone and stopping the female scene to grow?
Difficulty it puts onto tourney creators. It becomes difficult for them to put on a female (as a selling point), not overly imbalanced tournament. The reason why female tourney worked was because there were a few similarly skilled players, masters, GMs but none are close to good male progamer's level. They also can't NOT let trans play, otherwise the tourney will be seen as a hatred against trans thing.
The negativity put upon to Scarlett. It's just she is gonna get more blame and hate from the people who disagree with her joining female league.
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Scarlett has the brain of a man, which is different from the brain of a woman, and so far results-wise has been proven to be way more efficient to play Starcraft. That means that if we want to be truly fair she shouldn't compete in tournaments where only girls are allowed like she did so far. As much as she deserves respect as anyone else for which gender she identifies with it's not right that she participated in several female only tournaments.
Mindblowing ignorance being spewed from aTnCloud. Who would have thunk it?
the good old "bigot! ignorant! backwards! fascist! reactionary!" routine.
On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote: @whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so.
uhuh, easy now. i only said i think it would be worrysome if tl would censor such discussions.
but anyways, now since you asked: as it stands there are more men playing sc2 than women by, educated guess, more than an order of magnitude. of course this immediately means that there will be way more tourneys won by men than women. it remains to explore why men are so overrepresented...whether its origin is cultural or biological (or both) i guess nobody can deny men are -on average-(!) more interested in competing in any sorts of competition then women. i doubt anyone can make statements about some sort of intrinsic talent for sc2 between men and women, however, because of the same reason i very well believe it is important to remain skeptical. i would certainly not make a statement such as the male brain is better for sc2 than the female brain (really no), because i dont know, but there certainly is such a possibility, if you rule it out, its like sticking fingers in your ear and scream lalalal to unpleasant things you dont want to hear.
anyways, the much cited post above puts together there is no difference in born females and transgender females, which would make this discussion obsolete right. but...dont know. after all these years there finally is a girl showing insane skill and breaking through to the absolute top, how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
On April 28 2013 04:58 whoso wrote: how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
because this is predicated on the really weak/bigoted/idiotic assertion that men are better than women at starcraft? because the "rational person" is the same washed-up nobody who called out successful commentators the last time he got any attention (and is now calling out the one transgendered starcraft player anyone knows)?
..then again, this is coming from a community of 14 year olds that think korean people are superior to people of other nationalities because of what they do in a video game...
you're gonna have a really good life if you think this way
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances. Scarlett has the brain of a man, which is different from the brain of a woman, and so far results-wise has been proven to be way more efficient to play Starcraft. That means that if we want to be truly fair she shouldn't compete in tournaments where only girls are allowed like she did so far. As much as she deserves respect as anyone else for which gender she identifies with it's not right that she participated in several female only tournaments.
Mindblowing ignorance being spewed from aTnCloud. Who would have thunk it?
Indeed, totally ignorant. There are studies that show that the brain of MtF transexual individuals is different than men, they seem to not be equal from women but they resemble more a woman's brain.
On April 28 2013 04:58 whoso wrote: how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
because this is predicated on the really weak/bigoted/idiotic assertion that men are better than women at starcraft? because the "rational person" is the same washed-up nobody who called out successful commentators the last time he got any attention (and is now calling out the one transgendered starcraft player anyone knows)?
..then again, this is coming from a community of 14 year olds that think korean people are superior to people of other nationalities because of what they do in a video game...
you're gonna have a really good life if you think this way
i dont think youre helping the discussion when you resort to personal insults. still im going to ask you, why do you think they are even holding female only tourneys hm? or why do they do female only tourneys in chess and what not. because the female scenes in these sports are massively underdeveloped compared to the male ones, for reasons nobody can make a definite statement about.
On April 28 2013 04:58 whoso wrote: how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
because this is predicated on the really weak/bigoted/idiotic assertion that men are better than women at starcraft? because the "rational person" is the same washed-up nobody who called out successful commentators the last time he got any attention (and is now calling out the one transgendered starcraft player anyone knows)?
..then again, this is coming from a community of 14 year olds that think korean people are superior to people of other nationalities because of what they do in a video game...
you're gonna have a really good life if you think this way
i dont think youre helping the discussion when you resort to personal insults. still im going to ask you, why do you think they are even holding female only tourneys hm? or why do they do female only tourneys in chess and what not. because the female scenes in these sports are massively underdeveloped compared to the male ones, for reasons nobody can make a definite statement about.
Yes, that is why they hold those tournaments. Yes, Scarlett did compete in them and probably inspired lots of other women to try playing the game competitively. No, I don't give a shit about the purity of the competition as it pertains to someone's shitty "research" about male/female capabilities or whatever. The reason we have female-only tournaments in the first place is that you fucking idiots take your boys' club attitude about sports and apply it to video games out of fear and ignorance.
At the end of the day, nobody posting in this thread really has a fucking clue about the 'science' they're citing. It's basically the same as klan members talking about phrenology, only with women and video games. Or, in the case of Cloud, there's zero science and just a bunch of poorly-connected ideas from someone who skipped becoming an adult to fail at competing in video games. What matters is that Scarlett would fucking rape all of you in a tournament, and you're too weak to respect that like if she was a man.
Olympic rules permit transsexual athletes to compete in the Olympics after having completed sex reassignment surgery, being legally recognized as a member of the sex they wish to compete as, and having undergone two years of hormonal therapy, unless they transitioned before puberty.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote: @whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances.
Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background.
So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive!
You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with.
On April 28 2013 04:58 whoso wrote: how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
because this is predicated on the really weak/bigoted/idiotic assertion that men are better than women at starcraft? because the "rational person" is the same washed-up nobody who called out successful commentators the last time he got any attention (and is now calling out the one transgendered starcraft player anyone knows)?
..then again, this is coming from a community of 14 year olds that think korean people are superior to people of other nationalities because of what they do in a video game...
you're gonna have a really good life if you think this way
i dont think youre helping the discussion when you resort to personal insults. still im going to ask you, why do you think they are even holding female only tourneys hm? or why do they do female only tourneys in chess and what not. because the female scenes in these sports are massively underdeveloped compared to the male ones, for reasons nobody can make a definite statement about.
Yes, that is why they hold those tournaments. Yes, Scarlett did compete in them and probably inspired lots of other women to try playing the game competitively. No, I don't give a shit about the purity of the competition as it pertains to someone's shitty "research" about male/female capabilities or whatever. The reason we have female-only tournaments in the first place is that you fucking idiots take your boys' club attitude about sports and apply it to video games out of fear and ignorance.
At the end of the day, nobody posting in this thread really has a fucking clue about the 'science' they're citing. It's basically the same as klan members talking about phrenology, only with women and video games. Or, in the case of Cloud, there's zero science and just a bunch of poorly-connected ideas from someone who skipped becoming an adult to fail at competing in video games. What matters is that Scarlett would fucking rape all of you in a tournament, and you're too weak to respect that like if she was a man.
youre way to fast to make assumptions about other people my dear. what you show here is ignorance and irrationality at its very core. so much spite and hate, hardly understandable. i dont even in the slightest agree with what cloud said, but i also made that clear above.
On April 28 2013 04:58 whoso wrote: how can you really tell a rational person he is oh so ignorant if this single one girl turns out to be transgender? how can you really tell him he is ignorant if he worries that putting her together with other women in a women only tourney for sc2 which is thought to help developing female sc2 esports is at least something to think about a little?
because this is predicated on the really weak/bigoted/idiotic assertion that men are better than women at starcraft? because the "rational person" is the same washed-up nobody who called out successful commentators the last time he got any attention (and is now calling out the one transgendered starcraft player anyone knows)?
..then again, this is coming from a community of 14 year olds that think korean people are superior to people of other nationalities because of what they do in a video game...
you're gonna have a really good life if you think this way
i dont think youre helping the discussion when you resort to personal insults. still im going to ask you, why do you think they are even holding female only tourneys hm? or why do they do female only tourneys in chess and what not. because the female scenes in these sports are massively underdeveloped compared to the male ones, for reasons nobody can make a definite statement about.
Yes, that is why they hold those tournaments. Yes, Scarlett did compete in them and probably inspired lots of other women to try playing the game competitively. No, I don't give a shit about the purity of the competition as it pertains to someone's shitty "research" about male/female capabilities or whatever. The reason we have female-only tournaments in the first place is that you fucking idiots take your boys' club attitude about sports and apply it to video games out of fear and ignorance.
At the end of the day, nobody posting in this thread really has a fucking clue about the 'science' they're citing. It's basically the same as klan members talking about phrenology, only with women and video games. Or, in the case of Cloud, there's zero science and just a bunch of poorly-connected ideas from someone who skipped becoming an adult to fail at competing in video games. What matters is that Scarlett would fucking rape all of you in a tournament, and you're too weak to respect that like if she was a man.
I think you have some issues, read what you are actually writing in this thread, its quite embarrassing and I do not think you are doing Scarlett any favours with your horrible attitude which does annoy and a lot of others who actually respect Scarlett and are not just obsessed with pedantic arguments over her gender status.
oh, i might add: if i would have been in the position to decide to let her enter a female only tourney or not by myself, i propably would have let her, but not without having at least a certain amount of doubt in my mind
If the passport/id say female I thinks she should be allowed to play in female only tournaments, if it still say male I think it would be better to wait until all is done.
On April 28 2013 05:43 Simsallabin wrote: If the passport/id say female I thinks she should be allowed to play in female only tournaments, if it still say male I think it would be better to wait until all is done.
sure, buddy, but consider this: the thread title is "Scarlett to take a break from SC2" and nobody fucking asked you for your uneducated opinion.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
On April 28 2013 05:43 Simsallabin wrote: If the passport/id say female I thinks she should be allowed to play in female only tournaments, if it still say male I think it would be better to wait until all is done.
sure, buddy, but consider this: the thread title is "Scarlett to take a break from SC2" and nobody fucking asked you for your uneducated opinion.
What do you mean by uneducated opinion?
I didn't ask you to comment on my post so why did you? Seems strange you do things just as you feel like it and that can't be OK since you so angry when others do so.
If you read the last few pages it's been talk about female only tournaments so I put my opinion and will keep doing so even if you get upset like a Twilight fangirl.
who cares about who she is or was ? all i know is she is the best foreign and it hurts our scene if shes not part of our scene ... hope it get better FAST!!! we need her so much
I'll just add my two cents to the debate as to whether she should be allowed in female-exclusive tournaments:
I'd like to think of female tournaments as a different league. Empirically, women are worse than men in Starcraft (lets ignore the debate about whether Scarlett is truly a female mentally or not, just a different can of worms. I'm going to pretend that Scarlett doesn't exist in my discussion, because the true neuroscience of transsexuals isn't something completely understood, and I don't want to draw conclusions for or against it.). This is proven by the fact that there are no females in the absolute top tier. Tossgirl was relevant, but she only has a few exceptional results to her name. Otherwise, you see and saw no females playing in the MSL, OSL, PL, GSL et al. and definitely don't stay relevant if one does pop up (which only Tossgirl really qualifies as).
So, if you take this empirical data, you can conclude that women under-perform in Starcraft. I don't know why this is, nor is it relevant to my discussion, fact is, it is just so. So I like to think of female tournaments as say a "Masters-only league". If you allowed MC, Flash or IdrA to join these tournaments, they'd crush any female gamer 9/10 of the times. So if you want females to compete and have a chance, the data shows you can't put them against males, or they'll lose; so, just have them face each other exclusively.
So back to Scarlett: she's fucking good. She's on the level of Koreans. So what happens if you allow her into a female tournament? You can bet your sweet money that she'll be 1st in 98% of them: unless she loses to cheese for whatever reason. So then, once again, you have the issue where all the competition is crushed and the women participating here don't have a chance to place 1st. So, you kinda lose the purpose of separating women due to their historical and empirical under-performance respective to men.
This is ignoring the fact Scarlett probably can't be bothered joining these tournaments any more because she's just so next-level, but that's another story. All in all, people should just be wishing Scarlett a good physical recovery, something which must surely be independent from whether she's truly a guy or a girl neurologically.
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: Empirically, women are worse than men in Starcraft. This is proven by the fact that there are no females in the absolute top tier.
what. seriously, if this was a forum about science or argument that shit wouldn't fly.
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: So, if you take this empirical data, you can conclude that women under-perform in Starcraft. I don't know why this is, nor is it relevant to my discussion, fact is, it is just so.
so it's "empirically proven" by the fact that there aren't top tier female players.....but you don't know 'why this is'...
but it's "just so"
this is what it looks like when someone is tremendously bigoted but tries to seem like an intellectual, folks.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
but what's important is how a bunch of whiny babies with no tournament results can show off how they're living in the dark ages
good show, fellas!
ad hominem? it doesn't matter if you are gsl champion or bronze league, your opinion about this has the same weight
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: Empirically, women are worse than men in Starcraft. This is proven by the fact that there are no females in the absolute top tier.
what. seriously, if this was a forum about science or argument that shit wouldn't fly.
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: So, if you take this empirical data, you can conclude that women under-perform in Starcraft. I don't know why this is, nor is it relevant to my discussion, fact is, it is just so.
so it's "empirically proven" by the fact that there aren't top tier female player.....but you don't know 'why this is'...
but it's "just so"
this is what it looks like when someone is tremendously bigoted but tries to seem like an intellectual, folks.
Look at all tournaments. There isn't a single woman (again, I'm ignoring Scarlett because I don't want to poke that bear) in there with results. So, going in it with a completely blind POV, women are worse than men, because data shows that women don't get results in comparison to men.
Why? I don't know. Is there a reason? Perhaps. Do I know the answers to those questions? God no.
Quick addition: I haven't performed a study on this, nor am I an expert on gender differential neurology, so I won't presume that I know what causes a gender-bias in eSports, but it is evident by looking at tournaments in any game, that men dominate it.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect.
furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
but what's important is how a bunch of whiny babies with no tournament results can show off how they're living in the dark ages
good show, fellas!
ad hominem? it doesn't matter if you are gsl champion or bronze league, your opinion about this has the same weight
It's not ad hominem if there's no argument to attack. I'm just calling it like it is: everyone hating on Scarlett is a pathetic attention whore.
On April 28 2013 06:08 Shalaiyn wrote: Look at all tournaments. There isn't a single woman (again, I'm ignoring Scarlett because I don't want to poke that bear) in there with results. So, going in it with a completely blind POV, women are worse than men, because data shows that women don't get results in comparison to men.
Why? I don't know. Is there a reason? Perhaps. Do I know the answers to those questions? God no.
On April 28 2013 05:43 Simsallabin wrote: If the passport/id say female I thinks she should be allowed to play in female only tournaments, if it still say male I think it would be better to wait until all is done.
sure, buddy, but consider this: the thread title is "Scarlett to take a break from SC2" and nobody fucking asked you for your uneducated opinion.
What do you mean by uneducated opinion?
I didn't ask you to comment on my post so why did you? Seems strange you do things just as you feel like it and that can't be OK since you so angry when others do so.
If you read the last few pages it's been talk about female only tournaments so I put my opinion and will keep doing so even if you get upset like a Twilight fangirl.
Thing is though you are posting on a public forum you don't need to ask for people to give their opinion, this thread is not about female only tournaments. It is about Scarlett taking a break from sc2 , so calm your tits.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
but what's important is how a bunch of whiny babies with no tournament results can show off how they're living in the dark ages
good show, fellas!
ad hominem? it doesn't matter if you are gsl champion or bronze league, your opinion about this has the same weight
It's not ad hominem if there's no argument to attack. I'm just calling it like it is: everyone hating on Scarlett is a pathetic attention whore.
On April 28 2013 06:08 Shalaiyn wrote: Look at all tournaments. There isn't a single woman (again, I'm ignoring Scarlett because I don't want to poke that bear) in there with results. So, going in it with a completely blind POV, women are worse than men, because data shows that women don't get results in comparison to men.
Why? I don't know. Is there a reason? Perhaps. Do I know the answers to those questions? God no.
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: Empirically, women are worse than men in Starcraft. This is proven by the fact that there are no females in the absolute top tier.
what. seriously, if this was a forum about science or argument that shit wouldn't fly.
On April 28 2013 06:00 Shalaiyn wrote: So, if you take this empirical data, you can conclude that women under-perform in Starcraft. I don't know why this is, nor is it relevant to my discussion, fact is, it is just so.
so it's "empirically proven" by the fact that there aren't top tier female player.....but you don't know 'why this is'...
but it's "just so"
this is what it looks like when someone is tremendously bigoted but tries to seem like an intellectual, folks.
Look at all tournaments. There isn't a single woman (again, I'm ignoring Scarlett because I don't want to poke that bear) in there with results. So, going in it with a completely blind POV, women are worse than men, because data shows that women don't get results in comparison to men.
Why? I don't know. Is there a reason? Perhaps. Do I know the answers to those questions? God no.
Quick addition: I haven't performed a study on this, nor am I an expert on gender differential neurology, so I won't presume that I know what causes a gender-bias in eSports, but it is evident by looking at tournaments in any game, that men dominate it.
Still this opinion is rather sexist and doesn't belong on this forum , no one needs to see this . You can say that you are not an expert and feign ignorance on it but the truth is there is no need for this discussion especially in this thread.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
but what's important is how a bunch of whiny babies with no tournament results can show off how they're living in the dark ages
good show, fellas!
ad hominem? it doesn't matter if you are gsl champion or bronze league, your opinion about this has the same weight
It's not ad hominem if there's no argument to attack. I'm just calling it like it is: everyone hating on Scarlett is a pathetic attention whore.
On April 28 2013 06:08 Shalaiyn wrote: Look at all tournaments. There isn't a single woman (again, I'm ignoring Scarlett because I don't want to poke that bear) in there with results. So, going in it with a completely blind POV, women are worse than men, because data shows that women don't get results in comparison to men.
Why? I don't know. Is there a reason? Perhaps. Do I know the answers to those questions? God no.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect.
furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey.
Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this.
On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote: @whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 28 2013 03:21 aTnClouD wrote:
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances.
Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background.
So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive!
You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with.
What are you even trying to say here?
Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain.
On April 28 2013 04:37 Evil_Sheep wrote: @whoso, @aTnClouD: There is zero evidence to suggest men are better than women at playing Starcraft. If you'd like to bring some facts to the discussion other than your opinions, feel free to do so.
On April 24 2013 16:05 Befree wrote: I feel bad doing this, I know I shouldn't play into this, I know I should stay on topic and this is probably against the rules, I know it's none of our business, but when I read some of these ignorant comments I feel an obligation to reply.
First, her trans status is none of your business, has no effect on you, and shouldn't need to disclosed to you nor explained to you.
Second, you have completely outdated ideas of sex and gender. You first off latch onto your false characteristics of what defines each sex, none of which actually do clearly define sex as science has come to discover. Then you act as if these false characteristics are also what define gender for you, even though likely 99.99% of your evaluations of someone's gender throughout your life were not based on attributes like testosterone/estrogen levels, chromosomes, genitalia, or reproductive systems.
Third, and I believe this is most important here, you have no idea what being trans even is. You think it's someone who decides they want to be the other sex, and so they pretend and everyone plays along. That is NOT at all the case.
In the womb, the fetal brain is pushed towards a male gender through the action of testosterone on nerve cells, or towards female by the absence of this testosterone. This is the process that develops our gender identity in our brain and it occurs during the second half of pregnancy. But it's during the first two months of pregnancy that the sexual differentiation of the genitals occurs. Both these processes can be influenced independently and in some extreme cases can result in trans-sexuality. The degree of the masculinization of the genitals does not necessarily reflect the masculinization of the brain. There's no indication that the social environment after birth affects gender identity (*). There are studies (**) that compare the female brain to a male-to-female trans woman's brain and they also show the same thing that the male-to-female trans brain is structurally similar to the genetically female brain.
They are essentially a brain with a mismatched body. This incongruence can be very disruptive to a their life and make them feel horrible because they never feel right in their gender identity and their body. These extreme cases of gender dysphoria have been found to be treated best by sex reassignment therapy and hormone therapy. It is not meant to be cosmetic, elective, or optional in any meaningful way (***).
After two years of hormone replacement therapy and sexual reassignment therapy, a male-to-female trans woman is essentially physically female. In 2003, the International Olympic Committee Medical Commission even recommended for sport that all male-to-female trans women be regarded as female for competition as there was no meaningful physical difference after sex reassignment and two years of HRT.
For our particular case of Scarlett, she was born partially female, the more meaningful and important part, the brain. And now also has essentially a female body. It is NOT political correctness to call her female, it is not polite, it is not for the sake of making her feel good, it is simply the truth. She is female. You can be rude and hateful and refer to trans people by their gender they don't identify as, but you're only making a fool of yourself because you're wrong. And science has explained exactly why you are wrong. So instead of trying to push your ignorant, emotion-based, unscientific line of reasoning, how about you just shut the fuck up and take a moment to actually educate yourself on the matter before blurting out such stupidity.
Here's what I cited: (*) Sexual Hormones and the Brain: An Essential Alliance for Sexual Identity and Sexual Orientation Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF Endocr Dev. 2010;17:22-35 (**) Zhou et al Nature (1995) 378:68–70. and Male–to–female transsexuals have female neuron numbers in a limbic nucleus. Kruiver et al J Clin Endocrinol Metab (2000) 85:2034–2041 (***) http://www.wpath.org/documents2/socv6.pdf (****) http://www.olympic.org/Documents/Reports/EN/en_report_905.pdf
-----
I recognize it is bad to derail a thread with a comment like this, and maybe it's a warning or ban, but I just cannot stand reading these completely ignorant comments from people who think they know what they're talking about. There is so much ignorance on transgender people and so much transphobia everywhere that I feel it is necessary to respond to this ignorance with the truth. Because I really don't think the vast majority of people have any idea of the science or facts around it. I do apologize, though, to Scarlett, for continuing the conversation on her transgender status which I do not feel is any of our business. It would probably be more appropriate in a transgender topic than her injury announcement thread, but I only mean to help and educate others.
----
I'm sorry to hear about Scarlett's injury. I've been a big fan since I remember first seeing her play at that MLG. We'll just have to be rooting extra hard for her in the WCS now then. Hopefully her break falls on the shorter side of the 2-6 month estimation, that's a really long time .
On April 28 2013 03:21 aTnClouD wrote:
On April 28 2013 03:02 whoso wrote: if its fair when transgender players take part in female only tourneys etc?
It's not, but SC2 community has to be politically correct and accept this in the name of blind love for minorances.
Yes, how dare anyone display their "blind love" for minorities. We should discriminate and marginalize anyone who looks or acts different than the majority. Hear, hear. I think I can detect Mussolini clapping in the background.
So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive!
You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with.
What are you even trying to say here?
Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain.
this guy is just a nublet then , seems to be a hate fuelled nerd.
On April 28 2013 05:23 Tuthur wrote: So basically a player like ROOT.Puck can alter the way his whole brain works just by deciding to switch back and forth between genders like he did recently? That's pretty impressive!
You're not educating anyone by spreading your pro-LGBT propaganda, don't worry though, it's the popular opinion to adopt these days so you'll have plenty of people to circlejerk with.
What are you even trying to say here?
Scientific studies have demonstrated that the brains of transgender individuals more closely resemble the gender that they identify with than the gender of the body they were born into. They don't change the way their brain works. They change their body to match their brain.
You can't argue with people like this, he must think this is part of a gay agenda or something like that, I wouldn't be surprised if he is wearing a tin foil hat right now.
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect.
furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey.
Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this.
hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in".
its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports.
if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
Best of luck Scarlett, I hope you get well soon! On the off chance that you see this, elevating the mouse a bit above your wrist rest is supposed to help with wrist issues
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect.
furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey.
Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this.
hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in".
its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports.
if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
yo dude, like i stated above this is not the thread for this discussion so you need to relax. Make your own thread to argue your points , also you don't have to be condescending to him no need to be a dick.
on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not?
On April 28 2013 04:49 JimmyJRaynor wrote: in more well established track sports with clearly defined "gender rules" .. Scarlett , at this point, would probably be forbidden from entering the female stuff most of the time...
the rules have changed over the years... but if the IOC decided to "invoke their testing rights"... Scarlett would prolly not be permitted to play in the female events. NCAA does it based on driver's license, tax stuff and voter registration. so NCAA would probably not permit Scarlett to compete in stuff like WOmen's hockey.
every event and organization has their own policies though its up to each individual event what they wanna do.
Hmm not really, most event (in the western world atleast) allows it, even the Olympic allows trans people to play as their identified gender.
The IOC has been changing its policies in this area for decades. To say for sure what the IOC would do next..... well ... where is ur crystal ball ?
NCAA would not allow Scarlett.. don't know where u r getting ur info from on NCAA women's events.
some of the testerone suppression drugs are banned substances by the IIHF. saying its a "slam dunk" that Scarlett would be eligible for NCAA women's hockey is incorrect.
furthermore, where is the 1 year of documentation on the hormone suppression therapy undergone by Scarlett?,.. and the testing results. Who is paying for that ? you? It'd be a long drawn out administrative process which might still result in Scarlett's exclusion from NCAA Women's hockey.
Why are you arguing this so hard ? The point still stands that a trans woman or man that really want to can participate in this.
hard? if you think this is hard ... i have to wonder if you've ever had a real job. any how... getting into "womens sports" is more than just "hey i wanna join in".
its a long involved process... and if that process is not executed then guys like aTnCloud will rightfully cry "foul". as has arleady happened in dozens of other sports.
if oyu have documentation that these processes have been performed... lets see 'em.
Yes, I have a real job and I'm a full time student. What the fuck dude, calm down.
Yes it can be hard, but it is possible. Those policy will most likely change to be more inclusive anyway as more trans tries to apply and pressure those organisations.
On April 28 2013 07:31 whoso wrote: on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not?
Yeah also maybe change how you sit improve posture ect, exercise helps but only if you don't over work your wrists!
On April 28 2013 07:31 whoso wrote: on another note, proteams should really make sure their players have some proper protection from wrist injuries. i hope you can fight it before its too late with exercise and what not?
Yea, I'm pretty sure it is the case in KeSPA teams, but even Flash had problem too and needed surgery. Some people seems more prone to this due to genetics unfortunately.
I know its a sensitive topic but I don't think people should be banned for pointing out a "nuance" about a popular player in Scarlett. I refer to her as a she out of respect but others might have different viewpoints on the matter.
On April 28 2013 07:56 BrassMonkey27 wrote: I know its a sensitive topic but I don't think people should be banned for pointing out a "nuance" about a popular player in Scarlett. I refer to her as a she out of respect but others might have different viewpoints on the matter.
I'm sorry, but from the point of view of a trans person, when done on purpose, is literally denying them their identity. Respect should matter more than opinion based on prejudice and overall lack of education on this subject. So really, just don't do it and thank you for respecting this
But anyway, I don't think people get banned over this unless they really are idiots, must of the time it's just a warning if it's the first time, which I think is fair, not because of different opinions but because not everybody is educated on stuff like this.
Recover quickly, Scarlett! Hopefully you can get back into it quickly.
Also, is this thread some kind of circus? I thought it was about Scarlett taking a break for health-related issues, but it seems like people are more interested in discussing Scarlett-adjacent topics. Anyways...
Why the fuck are people arguing about her playing in female only tours or not; so irrelevant. Wish for a speedy recovery, if even possible because it sounds bad. It's a shame so many of us gamers suffer from wrist problems but we can always improve something to help our health in the long run.
Now that I think about didn't Fenix take time off because of wrists? It seemed like he was gone for about a year maybe longer. So I would expect Scarlett to stay out a year when she decides it is time.
On April 29 2013 01:26 HeeroFX wrote: Now that I think about didn't Fenix take time off because of wrists? It seemed like he was gone for about a year maybe longer. So I would expect Scarlett to stay out a year when she decides it is time.
TLO also did the same, but it was only a few months for him IIRC. So I guess the recovery time varies a lot depending on the injury and person, just saying it was "the wrists" doesn't really tell us much.
What makes it sad for Scarlett is that she is still a rising star and we only got to see her play so little, I just hope she has to motivation to push on once she is healthy again.
I would not worry overmuch about her motivation. She's been in Korea doing the grind for some time now which takes considerable dedication, especially when the much more leisurely alternative of just streaming ladder games is available.
She seems genuinely dedicated to improving and trying to win big tournaments. Setbacks happen all the time, it's just something everyone deals with.
Yea I have no doubt she will be able to come back to her skill level. She is still (relatively) young too, so if she really wants to continue her progaming career I'm sure she'll do fine. She's not the first to stop and come back anyway, for example Effort stopped for a few month but was able to come back as a good player.
Sometimes when i read a post on teamliquid, i lose faith in humanity. Then i wait until the person with the blatantly stupid post gets banned and mock them in the ABL thread.
Back to topic: I hope Scarlett will be able to have the issues sorted out quickly and can recover soon! Best of luck
On April 28 2013 04:48 MeriaDoKk wrote: Hes a really good player, hope he recovers soon, good luck!
User was warned for this post
Don't be a Dbag and really this has been discussed before and frankly this attitude is rather toxic.
I'm curious though, Scarlett was born male, but now chose to be female. Shouldn't it be "it" instead?
User was banned for this post.
a permaban seems harsh, some people might have a unique perspective on life
No, its inconsiderate. Your SEX is what you are born with. Your GENDER is what you define yourself as.
You have the right to change your gender as a lifestyle "choice", and ultimate, through surgery, your sex.
Show some respect. If scarlett wants to be called, or considers herself, a female, you should do just that.
User was warned for this post
i seriously dont get why that guy got warned.. this discussion is so confusing. Whats right whats wrong?
so according to wikipedia gender decides between masculinity and femininity and sex decides between male, female and intersex.
So the correct description would be Scarlett is a feminin male? Dont ban me its a question.
I assume the warnings are being handed out because it's got nothing to do with the topic at hand and only serves to derail the thread. Look to google if you are confused, it's not complicated.
ok according to pm my post was "off topic".. in my opinion my post was an attempt of clarification how to not get banned by correctly adressing someone as he or she. So its relevant to that thread because if you didnt understand it, you get banned/warned. also i need to read the rules to find where it is stated that saying "dont ban me" does get you banned. Because i said that and im not banned. Seems like a ridiculous rule to me.
well on topic, what i initially wanted to say before i got confused by the amount of warnings and bans in this thread: I hope she doesnt take a huge break... i hope she doesnt have to sit out an entire season.. does someone know when season 2 starts?
Its gonna be pretty hard to sit out a season but attend blizzcon at the end of the year.
Edit: can someone link me to the forum rules? i cant find them
People need to stop talking about scarlett's identity, thats probably why you are being warned.
I for one am wondering if her break has already started, does anyone know? After all she did get knocked out of WCS NA. Hope maybe LastShadow's tape method helped her wrists enough.
On May 29 2013 23:23 Orek wrote: Injury rate of SC2 is arguably higher than that of any other sports. This is detrimental as we promote this e-sport.
So false xD even more if you take nto account time put into just getting a better body in most sports. From my basketball years I can tell you that most people can get injuries every other week and just deal with it.
On May 29 2013 23:23 Orek wrote: Injury rate of SC2 is arguably higher than that of any other sports. This is detrimental as we promote this e-sport.
So false xD even more if you take nto account time put into just getting a better body in most sports. From my basketball years I can tell you that most people can get injuries every other week and just deal with it.
The injury rate in sc2 is so small lol. I wish Scarlett a speedy recovery .
well i hope she can work things out with her wrists best wishes for a speedy recovery id like to see her get back to her full form, but 6 months is forever to wait... this might as well be a retirement from competitive play, in my eyes... hard to come back from that
On May 30 2013 01:08 Papillon wrote: i am really sorry for him
User was warned for this post
Not sure why he was even warned for this. The argument is about as ridiculous as calling Michael Jackson white because he dyed his skin.
Hopefully "Scarlett" recovers though. It's always good to see foreigners who can compete and give the foreign crowd something to cheer for.
User was temp banned for this post.
It is not about facts or reality. It is about respecting a person's decision. You would know about that if you weren't living your life so judgemental in every aspect i guess.
Really sucks. I'm in the same situation myself (a ganglion cyst developed under my wrist) right after I got into masters and started playing 1v1's more seriously. I've had to stop playing completely for 2 months now and there's no telling how much longer it will have to be. I also can't play any other games with my hand period, its been a damn boring couple of months. I'm even limited at my job and do most of my work with my left hand.
Before this I had been playing through some mild wrist pain for a while and I stupidly thought just cutting down the amount I played by a lot that it would be alright. Now I'm in such a worse situation than I ever imagined and can barely use my right hand for months. Surgery to remove the cyst might be the only way it will recover but my insurance won't even cover it.
It's been said a lot but can't be said enough, if you're having ANY wrist pain, stop playing COMPLETELY until it's gone.
I hope this bring some attention regarding proper ergonomics when playing computer games. That and getting the right gear for comfort and not just performance.
Watching Flash precisely measure the exact position of his mice and keyboard suddenly doesn't look silly. Scarlett was one of the few bright spots in north American starcraft
EDIT: didn't realize this was such an old topic, I thought it was directly related to her interview after round 16 wcs last night
EPT
. Mechanics are going to be so unbelievably rusty T_T. 
![[image loading]](http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/p480x480/306762_449798048442810_391546813_n.jpg)
