EPTFour Koreans qualify from WCS AM Prelim Day 1 - Page 11
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bluQ
Germany1724 Posts
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Integra
Sweden5626 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:40 bluQ wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the MLG bracket in comparison to TLpedia? MLG bracket is broken, along with the entire NA qualifier. Don't base anything on what MLG says or does, go to TL instead if you want correct information. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
However for NA, it's kinda unlucky for you guys that the Koreans were much more numerous, and also much stronger. Like, aLive, JYP and Oz are Proleague level and Alicia+Crank are GSTL A-teamers, of course some random guy won't beat one of these. The mistery remains Jaedong's loss... that's a storyline I guess. :D tl;dr; NA qualifier foreigner results are not to be compared with EU foreigner results, imo. | ||
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Hanna
Germany43 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:37 Kuni wrote: + Show Spoiler + There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing. It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality. There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way. Well said! I totally agree! | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On April 21 2013 14:00 Larkin wrote: Bear in mind this is the first try at this system, hopefully Blizzard will respond to the feedback about, well, no Americans in the WCS North America, and introduce better region locking for next WCS. I mean, I get that competition is super high in Korea, but if they want WCS to be the most prestigious tournament they can't let this shit happen. The problem is that Blizzard knew this was going to happen, and it seems like they designed/intended for it to turn out this way. Weren't some Koreans already invited/seeded into WCS America Premier league (bypassing these quals)? On another point, I read somewhere that 9th to 40th place from these qualifiers will get invited into a second tournament where they will compete for 8(?) more spots in the Premier league. Can anyone confirm? Also: Demuslim will have to win a couple of matches in the lower bracket AND then teamkill Revival in order qualify for WCS America Premier league. Yup, Demuslim, the guy who's now been living in the USA for the past 1-2 years and is #1 in our NA ladder and who should have been invited straight into the WCS Americas Premier league, imo (and in most ppl's opinions). | ||
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:45 ZenithM wrote: For EU, I think you have to realize that Tails, finale, and Daisy are really the worst "Koreans" you can find. They're not at all Code A level (maybe Tails) and I'd argue that they can be easily beaten by any of the EU invitees. It's normal that "local talent" can beat those guys. However for NA, it's kinda unlucky for you guys that the Koreans were much more numerous, and also much stronger. Like, aLive, JYP and Oz are Proleague level and Alicia+Crank are GSTL A-teamers, of course some random guy won't beat one of these. The mistery remains Jaedong's loss... that's a storyline I guess. :D tl;dr; NA qualifier foreigner results are not to be compared with EU foreigner results, imo. Really, Finale and Tails should have been able to beat all / most of the EU players (in my mind). So, I've been rationalizing why they lost in my head to the following: 1) A 1AM-8AM tournament time for them, which means there's a good chance they'd have to play while not being able to concentrate properly and having real sleep deprivation issues; and 2) Cross-server ping. KR -> EU is supposed to be even worse than KR -> NA. | ||
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goldentb
Slovenia15 Posts
i did not watch anything alse but GSL, and proleuage, now i can watch hole WCS, because there will be good players all around the globe, | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:37 Kuni wrote: + Show Spoiler + There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing. It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality. There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way. The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it... I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted". | ||
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greenknight999
69 Posts
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Jacmert
Canada1709 Posts
Root.MaSa, MacSed, Root.Sage, EG.JYP [RC], and EG.aLive [RC] all competing for 1 qualifiers spot. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_America/Qualifier/Premier Also, NonY and iNcontrol only have to face 1 Korean each (Ax.Miya and Apocalypse, respectively) on their path to qualifying for WCS America Premier League. Wow, it could really happen! (EDIT: Oops, looks like 2 Korean each. I missed HwangSin and Heart, respectively). | ||
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pms
Poland611 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:28 Psychobabas wrote: Terrible results due to crap WCS rules. People should start getting ban warnings for this. | ||
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:59 ZenithM wrote: The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it... I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted". What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good. A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment. Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments. | ||
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HereBeDragons
1429 Posts
Day1:  TAiLS lost 0-1 to  Dalozefinale lost to  Beastyqt with a standard bio terran TvP straight up 1-2.Daisy lost to KrasS 1-2Shuttle lost to Sonder 0-2Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP.finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push.Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1sDay3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLSShuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings.finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.Day4: Daisy lost in Bo1 to teNuTAiLS lost 0-2 to Shuttlefinale lost 0-2 to TefelAs you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble. Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:59 greenknight999 wrote: Did demuslim really get his 3rd CC with 2 marines or was the guy above exaggerating?? I watched that game, it was actually 1 marine. He had a reactor building. | ||
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NarutO
Germany18839 Posts
On April 21 2013 19:15 HereBeDragons wrote: + Show Spoiler + Since so many people were using this as their argument, here's a recap for the koreans in EU qualifiers: Day1: TAiLS lost 0-1 to Dalozefinale lost to Beastyqt with a standard bio terran TvP straight up 1-2.Daisy lost to KrasS 1-2Shuttle lost to Sonder 0-2Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP.finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push.Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1sDay3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLSShuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings.finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.Day4: Daisy lost in Bo1 to teNuTAiLS lost 0-2 to Shuttlefinale lost 0-2 to TefelAs you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble. Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot.In addition, Shuttle playing from NA to EU has delay that is barely hindering you. | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On April 21 2013 19:09 Kuni wrote: What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good. A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment. Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments. BW says hi. BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players. Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players. SC2 can grow even without the western players. It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc. | ||
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alvadr
135 Posts
On April 21 2013 18:59 ZenithM wrote: The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it... I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted". People will watch it though, the EU qualifiers proved that, games without any Koreans got just as many viewers as games with. You can say that's because EU is better than NA, but practically everyone was a no-name. Most people watch for storylines, and the underdogs (See Mystery yesterday) not for the best games. | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On April 21 2013 19:26 alvadr wrote: People will watch it though, the EU qualifiers proved that, games without any Koreans got just as many viewers as games with. You can say that's because EU is better than NA, but practically everyone was a no-name. Most people watch for storylines, and the underdogs (See Mystery yesterday) not for the best games. Pandatank! haha. The EU qualifiers were great fun. | ||
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Kuni
Austria765 Posts
On April 21 2013 19:22 FakeDeath wrote: BW says hi. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aw-42JO3qk BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players. Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players. SC2 can grow even without the western players. It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc. And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from. I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea. | ||
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Creem
Sweden254 Posts
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me. So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live. I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs. I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me. I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you. If foreigners get crushed by koreans with a 400 ping disadvantage, can you even imagine how absolutely onesided the games will be when they face off in a lan environment? I rather have the best players duke it out from the beginning. | ||
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