Day one of the qualifiers for WCS AM ended early tonight and four Koreans swept the first four spots. Unlike the EU qualifiers, Koreans showed dominance in the American qualifiers with only two upsets by foreigners in the whole tournament. NrGquasAr was able to knock down Jaedong to the losers bracket with a 2-0 score. Meanwhile, FXOMoosegills took down Center as well.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2013_WCS_Season_1_America/Qualifier/Premier Official Bracket on MLG
Tomorrow, the qualifiers continue as the losers bracket will be played out, with the top four from the losers bracket qualifying for WCS AM as well. The Koreans left include Center, Zenio, Jaedong, Revival, MotoK, HwangSin, Miya, Heart, Sage, JYP, and aLive. Three Chinese players remain: FruitsBasket, MacSed, and Top. Foreigner favorites such as DeMusliM, iNcontroL, NonY, qxc, and KawaiiRice also remain in the bracket, fighting for the final spots to represent the Americas.
People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
I like korean players and stuff, but seriously..... if they are gonna stay in the US and help grow the NA scene that is fine, its actually a good thing. But they are just gonna take that money back to korea. It's really sad. I am hoping the next 4 spots are tfilled by foreigners. Foreign players need some kind of success to justfiy playing.
On April 21 2013 13:38 tozi wrote: basically Catz was right in the state of the game episode.
Koreans dominate the "american" tournament leaving little to no chance for americans...
You needed Catz to tell you that the Koreans are going to take majority (if not all) of the 8 spots? Of course the foreigners have little or no chance.
Bear in mind this is the first try at this system, hopefully Blizzard will respond to the feedback about, well, no Americans in the WCS North America, and introduce better region locking for next WCS. I mean, I get that competition is super high in Korea, but if they want WCS to be the most prestigious tournament they can't let this shit happen.
Maybe a system like the Champions' League would be better, with seed points for regions/countries based on international tournament performance, where the higher points = higher number of qualification spots open for WCS.
Or just something that would ensure a 512 person bracket in Korea for 8 spots (though really it should be 24 with no invites) would be one where everyone fights their hardest for the best prize.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
While I like all these players I wish it was like last year where they had the tournament for each country it made it more fun because then it wasn't like 16 koreans from Korea 10 from NA and 5 from EU (or something like that)
Wonder how many of these we will see in Season 2, considering they will have to be moving to NA like it actualy should be.
Anyway no real suprise with a better connection between NA and KR then EU and KR that koreans simply dominate, just hoping 1 or 2 actual NA players make it out would be a sensation.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Larkin wrote: Bear in mind this is the first try at this system, hopefully Blizzard will respond to the feedback about, well, no Americans in the WCS North America, and introduce better region locking for next WCS. I mean, I get that competition is super high in Korea, but if they want WCS to be the most prestigious tournament they can't let this shit happen.
Is this a joke? Currently 9 Koreans are in the premier devision, with 4 spots still open. This means max. 13 Koreans will be in the WCS NA Premier Devision. If the American players that did not get an invitation are too bad to qualify, where is the problem? In the end you got max. 13 Koreans that just wait to be defeated by glorious North American players. :>
On April 21 2013 13:00 monk wrote: Day one of the qualifiers for WCS AM ended early tonight and four Koreans swept the first four spots. Unlike the EU qualifiers, Koreans showed dominance in the American qualifiers with only two upsets by foreigners in the whole tournament. NrGquasAr was able to knock down Jaedong to the losers bracket with a 2-0 score. Meanwhile, FXOMoosegills took down Center as well.
Catz defeated Hwangsin, so there was 3 upsets at least. I didn't actually check the whole bracket, could be more.
On April 21 2013 14:13 starslayer wrote: holy crap a low bracket with demu, qxc, jd and center T.t and only one can get through damn that sucks i like all these players
Probably going to be some EG teamkilling going on there
I'm confused. Where do I find out why they invited anyone? I hate invitationals more than I hate garbanzo beans. But, I can't seem to find where the rational behind the players chosen and in general why it's not just several qualifiers. I haven't been following the scene, but I'm semi-interested again.
If I had to guess, which I do because I haven't a clue, I'd say they invited popular players? I mean no offense, but some of these players are worse than a quarter of the players that signed up for the qualifiers. Is it largely to prevent a 32 Korean tournament? I see they invited the representatives from the shunned part of the world (except China) to the NA tournament. Some of the invitees seem pretty random.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
if you want storyline, go watch wrestling or some other stupid shit lol
Perhaps this demolishing results will make American players become better in the long term. Its makes me sad, in Europe there has been the motto "we try to hold against koreans", but in Na, people just say "weve got no chance, they are koreans". It really hurts to see players like Demuslim, who is dominating NA Ladder, loose to a zealot / stalker / MSC poke. This is a tournament, you dont do triple expand from 2 marines without dying, jesus.
On April 21 2013 14:26 Holo82 wrote: Perhaps this demolishing results will make American players become better in the long term. Its makes me sad, in Europe there has been the motto "we try to hold against koreans", but in Na, people just say "weve got no chance, they are koreans". It really hurts to see players like Demuslim, who is dominating NA Ladder, loose to a zealot / stalker / MSC poke. This is a tournament, you dont do triple expand from 2 marines without dying, jesus.
Do not compare WCS EU qualifiers to the NA qualifiers.
A small number of weaker Koreans went over to the EU qualifiers and one made it through, And the Koreans suffered greatly from latency issues.
A lot of Koreans came over to NA qualifiers and the connection between NA and KR is better.
I hate to say it but I would be much more pumped for tomorrow if it was a mostly american bracket, instead it is most likely going to be some koreans winning everything and I have no real interest in them.
On April 21 2013 14:26 Holo82 wrote: Perhaps this demolishing results will make American players become better in the long term. Its makes me sad, in Europe there has been the motto "we try to hold against koreans", but in Na, people just say "weve got no chance, they are koreans". It really hurts to see players like Demuslim, who is dominating NA Ladder, loose to a zealot / stalker / MSC poke. This is a tournament, you dont do triple expand from 2 marines without dying, jesus.
You guys are only fighting weaker Koreans and less of them + much more lag on your side.
NA is pretty much like Helm's Deep under siege in terms of the Korean onslaught, and Gandolf is not coming in the morning...
- nationality of players do not matter at all, or half the football clubs in EU would represent other countries instead lol - no players living in NA, obviously.....you heard of GSTL?
I like the fact that there will be Koreans in the premier league of the WCS NA. There's a lot going on in the WCS - regional stuff on two levels (premier/challenger leagues) and a global final season. The last thing you want is your best representatives from NA, who have only played other NA players in the regional WCS, going up against the best Korean WCS players in the global finals and getting slaughtered. Instead, you've got 3 (?) seasons worth of regional play where the NA players have two options: get on par with their Korean counterparts and fight well enough to adequately represent NA in the global finals, or fail to play well enough to challenge the Koreans and therefore save us all the embarassment of seeing them get mauled in the global finals.
Remember, this is just the premier league that they're trying out for, and the bottom 24 from that drop straight into the challenger league. The gauntlet's been thrown down; it's time to get better or die trying.
Everyone always jumps on this as "Maybe the Foreigners will try harder now!" But in reality, Foreigners can't try harder. CatZ has said this multiple times, better than anyone else. They already have an established scene. They can live off Sc2 right now even if they stay in their scene. But there are WAY TOO MANY koreans trying to get into the scene.
whereas you have the foreign US scene, There is no real established scene. When koreans started, They had to struggle to make a scene. But they only had to MAKE the scene. The US foreign scene has to struggle to COMPETE and make a scene. How much success do you think the koreans would have had if they were trying to start a scene in their town, And EU (Just an example) Had already been doing it for years with the toptop players coming over for their tournaments and winning literally everything.
The Chinese player FruitBasket was a amateur, but got replaced by a Chinese progamer during the tournament. Looking forward to see how MLG will deal about this.
Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
On April 21 2013 14:04 Lysanias wrote: Wonder how many of these we will see in Season 2, considering they will have to be moving to NA like it actualy should be.
What are you talking about? They won't have to move at all. Especially if everything is online in Ro32, and Ro16 is a 1-day trip, then Ro8->final is just a weekend trip. Team pays for ticket to US, Blizzard/MLG Pays for ticket from US city they enter to Event along with hotel/etc.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
On April 21 2013 13:38 tozi wrote: basically Catz was right in the state of the game episode.
Koreans dominate the "american" tournament leaving little to no chance for americans...
Good. Catz needs to stop his babbling and crying about Koreans dominating the NA scene so his players can get some recognition. Catz is the reason I don't support the ROOTs team. I'd be more supportive if he just kept his mouth shut and let everything play it out by itself, meaning leaving it up to HIS players to earn the recognition for the team and not by eliminating apposing players by apparent foreign tag.
Also, without Koreans in these tournaments I can guarantee the viewer base would be dwindled. Who wants to watch terrible NA GMs going at each other with their 16apm and a-move command thinking they know what they're doing. No one.. aside fanboys of Demuslim and Idra.
On April 21 2013 15:05 xiaomajia wrote: The Chinese player FruitBasket was a amateur, but got replaced by a Chinese progamer during the tournament. Looking forward to see how MLG will deal about this.
Can you provide more details? What exactly do you mean? Someone smurfed on his account?
On April 21 2013 13:38 tozi wrote: basically Catz was right in the state of the game episode.
Koreans dominate the "american" tournament leaving little to no chance for americans...
Good. Catz needs to stop his babbling and crying about Koreans dominating the NA scene so his players can get some recognition. Catz is the reason I don't support the ROOTs team. I'd be more supportive if he just kept his mouth shut and let everything play it out by itself, meaning leaving it up to HIS players to earn the recognition for the team and not by eliminating apposing players by apparent foreign tag.
Catz moved on and cried about a "suspected hacker" because 15 random ppl msged him and accused the guy of hacking lol
w/e happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Miya 2:0'd the "cheater in question" soon after lol
Well, they said next year you have to play live wherever the tournament is held to play (instead of online).
Two possibilities:
1. Koreans move to US and help build the NA scene (this includes possibility joining foreign team houses and helping practice, etc).
2. Koreans with sick sponsors fly back and forth between the tournament weekly while they still live in Korea (very very unlikely but it is a possibility which is why I mention this >.>).
So, by next year this problem will probably be not as big of a deal.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Catz moved on and cried about a "suspected hacker" because 15 random ppl msged him and accused the guy of hacking lol
w/e happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Miya 2:0'd the "cheater in question" soon after lol
/more pew pew, less QQ
That has nothing to do with what I typed, let alone I'd dig myself a 6 feet deep hole, put a bullet through my head and fall into the hole before I watch more than 3 minutes of what Catz has to say about anything.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
doesn't sound exciting at all.. start watching some GSL or SPL man
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
I sincerely hope that WCS NA is 100% Korean. It will show what a stupid ass decision blizzard made when they took over everything and made the NA and KR scene even. Hopefully if it is a full on Korean roflstomp, next season will feature a much greater GSL prize pool so that Koreans actually have an incentive to stay in Korea to compete.
I love how some people will call use the "fan boys" to talk down on people who are fans of certain players while being fan boys themselves.. Pot, meet kettle. Kettle, this is pot.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
If top Koreans bring more viewers than top Europeans then doesn't that just prove my point? I know it had the HotS thing going for it as well but at the very least this MLG proved that people don't actively turn off a stream when it becomes all Korean. At least not a significant amount.
On April 21 2013 15:05 xiaomajia wrote: The Chinese player FruitBasket was a amateur, but got replaced by a Chinese progamer during the tournament. Looking forward to see how MLG will deal about this.
Can you provide more details? What exactly do you mean? Someone smurfed on his account?
At the beginning of the tournament, a Chinese amateur "FruitBasket" get into the bracket, played first round himself and 2:1 win,then he posted the result on Chinese forum(http://bbs.neotv.cn/thread-1114030-1-2.html). But after that, because many Chinese progamer have not get into the bracket(check this post:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408776), "FruitBasket" gave his account to a Chinese progamer, let him have a chance to play in this tournament.
tl;dr: the FruitBasket who is playing in the tournament now is not the same person who checked in at the beginning of the tournament. MLG can make a comparison between the first round's replay and the latest replays, then they will know the answer.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
SC2 reality is that it's 2/3 to like 3/4 of the players about Koreans..
Ofcourse I won't make much fuss about all the EG Koreans and some of the others like that that stayed quite a bit long on the NA soil, like Violet for example..
Like - If you ask me personally - I see Violet as a NA player more than Korean.., and although he's Korean - the guy speaks English perfectly and the guy even was on the ChanmanV's show once.. Like - that guy's a NA for me TBH..
But Blizz played this one poorly..
What they should've done is make different number of spots qualify from different regions..
Like - say for example:
Korea - 13, EU - 6, NA - 5, SEA - 4, AUS - 2, SA - 2
That way you'd get a decent ratio of players from around the world
Something like that if y know what I mean, and THEN maybe allow the players to pick their region of interest (under the condition that they've been/lived more than say 6 months or a year on that soil) or decide where they have the highest chances for for winning a spot..
This way it was just a bad organisation.. Really weird and really bad..
Like - I agree that those were mainly foreigner-team Korean players and Nestea as Artosis once said, still - it'd have been much better that way IMO.. And much more fair too while still giving enough hopes for the foreigners (especially for like NA for example, that way half of those Koreans that are on the NA roster currently now would've been fighting on the Korean scene if you'd ask me)..
And yeah finally - Axiom (these probably should've been on EU tbh - it's a UK-owner team) and EG have like 13 Koreans in total which is quite a lot TBH.. I mean there should've been sth like a max number of Korean players per team, but that's something to be discussed some other time though
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
doesn't sound exciting at all.. start watching some GSL or SPL man
I watch all SC2 leagues.
so... you've watched GSL and SPL, MLG...etc., and yet you think EU qualifiers was "the best and most entertaining tournament you've ever watched......ok....... lmao
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
Actually MLG admitted that Idra vs. Boxer brought in more viewers.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
WCS EU vs WCS World isn't exactly a fair comparison either. It appeals to the same type of viewer (the one that wants to watch mostly foreigners) and WCS World had less of the most famous/best foreigners and worse production. The fair thing to compare would be GSL numbers which we unfortunately don't know but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual highest viewed things of last year were the GSL finals not including Sniper vs Hyun. Specifically Parting vs Life, MVP vs Squirtle and MVP vs Life. I bet those drew a gigantic amount of viewers.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
Actually MLG admitted that Idra vs. Boxer brought in more viewers.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You missed out man. The games were fucking awesome. Especially Stephano vs Lucifron and Grubby vs Nerchio. That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
I still need to watch WCS EU, lol. I honestly didn't even care about it up until I saw how everyone continued to rave about how good it was.
For the most part foreigners lost a lot of appeal to me when it became increasingly obvious that Koreans were only continuing to pull ahead. Yeah a good storyline can still pull me in, like say, Minigun vs Idra, Thorzain vs Naniwa, Lucifron vs Vortix etc. But I'd much rather just watch the better players at this point. The underdog story is cool every now and then (Thorzain winning Dreamhack), but sadly, I think we all know there's almost no foreigner that can consistently put up a fight against top Koreans except for Stephano and probably Scarlett currently. This cheapens foreign competition to me.
I'm kind of used to not having the US represented at the top. Hell, even back during the good old late 2010- early 2011 days we mainly just had Idra (the best foreigner) fighting for national pride. The NA region in general was always pretty scarce in the really good players sadly. So eventually I came to just appreciate the Koreans and over time found my own stories in that scene to have the best of both worlds.
Also, the whole personality thing about Koreans is a load of bullshit. Foreigners are just as awkward and uncharismatic as most Koreans. Never understood why people complain about "faceless" Koreans. Hell, aside from Incontrol I'd say MC has more charisma and fan-appeal than any foreigner out there. Thankfully, that's not the main reason I watch sc2.
Honestly, it's to the point where I'd much rather watch Nestea win WCS NA than any of the foreigners present. Big change from how I felt back in 2011.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
Congratulations on being one of the most irritatingly smug posters on TL
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
Congratulations on being one of the most irritatingly smug posters on TL
Congratulations on not being able to prove your point and having to resort to personal attacks
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
doesn't sound exciting at all.. start watching some GSL or SPL man
I watch all SC2 leagues.
so... you've watched GSL and SPL, MLG...etc., and yet you think EU qualifiers was "the best and most entertaining tournament you've ever watched......ok....... lmao
Oh pull the 'personal attack' card after trashing somebody else's viewing preferences.
I can't really wrap my head around NA players complaining about only koreans qualifying for WCS NA. All of the koreans left in the qualifier are on non-korean teams ( even all NA teams ?). So either the teams think that is a good idea to have koreans in the WCS NA or they dont care about their own player as long as they are not korean.
I don't think koreans should have been invited to the WCS NA, but complaining about koreans and have your own koreans qualifying is pretty hypocritical in my opinion.
I just hope they don't mess up the system too much. As long as I can watch the high level play then I am fine with it.
The GSTL Ax-Acer vs. FXOpen GSTL really showed how exciting SC2 games can be, those TvT were just AMAZING along with gameheart zoomed out. I really don't want the lesser players get matched up with a player way better just because they are at a weaker region. I want an equal skilled high level player bringing me good games. They personalities etc won't make the game anymore exciting than my friends playing against eachother...
On April 21 2013 16:00 Barta wrote: I can't really wrap my head around NA players complaining about only koreans qualifying for WCS NA. All of the koreans left in the qualifier are on non-korean teams ( even all NA teams ?). So either the teams think that is a good idea to have koreans in the WCS NA or they dont care about their own player as long as they are not korean.
I don't think koreans should have been invited to the WCS NA, but complaining about koreans and have your own koreans qualifying is pretty hypocritical in my opinion.
You can't blame teams for doing what is best for their sponsors and players. You can blame organizers for making a terrible rule-set.
I noticed something weird in these qualifiers. If I'm not mistaken, Xenocider played in the qualifier even though he is just 15 years old? There was supposed to be an age limit of 16 right? It's pretty weird that they let him play in the qualifier and for example Heromarine wasn't allowed to play the EU qualifier. I'm not saying that Xeno is bad and doesn't deserve the spot on the qualifier, he does. But so did Heromarine, being one of the best European Terrans with a pretty good chance of qualifying. I'm saying that if there is an age limit, hey should stick to it, and not make too many exceptions (Maru is acceptable). In the end, he took a place of someone else in the qualifier. Maybe one of the Chinese who got left out would have made it.
On April 21 2013 16:00 Barta wrote: I can't really wrap my head around NA players complaining about only koreans qualifying for WCS NA. All of the koreans left in the qualifier are on non-korean teams ( even all NA teams ?). So either the teams think that is a good idea to have koreans in the WCS NA or they dont care about their own player as long as they are not korean.
I don't think koreans should have been invited to the WCS NA, but complaining about koreans and have your own koreans qualifying is pretty hypocritical in my opinion.
You can't blame teams for doing what is best for their sponsors and players. You can blame organizers for making a terrible rule-set.
Not arguing the rule-set isn't terrible as it is now, but if they made it residential locked the same player would qualify. Making it only accessible by player born in NA/SA would be even more terrible than it is now
Basically Who I expected to make it through. And isn't it Looking Exciting!?!
So what are peoples predictions for who will win the actual events? WCS South Korea? WCS American Korea (also known as Korea B-teamer version)? WCS Europe (+ a handful of Koreans )? & who will win the overall thing?
I cant wait until next year when we have WCS in Koreastralia, and South East Korea as well, And this is Great! I think with how disadvantaged Korean players are they simply can't always be expected to be able to compete on the highest level, and they clearly need these tournaments so they don't have to be pressured into putting in effort to make money as a progamer.
I mean isn't it obvious they are disadvantaged! You know how they're lacking the infrastructure, financial backing or legitimacy to be a progamer as a career. I mean if only they were surrounded by the best players in the world that speak the same language as them. If only they had teams & teamhouses that provided for their needs so they weren't all forced to have part time jobs(to survive) as a progamer on top of school obligations...
Oh Wait.
I have absolutely nothing against the Korean players in general. Merely the select few acting like spoiled children that were whining about WCS & switching regions. I don't think is far fetched to expect these players to fall behind the top esf players competing in WCS korea + kespa players, when its clear they don't have the motivation despite all the benefits they have... there's no way they'll keep up with the likes of flash, innovation, etc. And hell, if they don't change their attitudes and if the foreigner scene ever catches up in skill, I daresay most of their careers will be over for good.
Anyways...
I won't be watching WCS America. It is far too obvious that MLG just wants Korean players for the higher viewership. And honestly i normally wouldn't care, I didn't care until they decided they were going to treat non-Koreans as second class citizens; From Inviting Korean players into the tournament over the likes of Demuslim and other highly skilled foreigner pros, to going so far as to kick Chinese players from the qualifiers. And hell as minor as it is they so far didn't even have the decency to care when CatZ & other foreigners lost to a known hacker. This and everything else they've managed to fuck up so far; its too much. This qualifier is a joke, and I wont be surprised when WCS America is just as much of a joke as well.
At least WCS EU is looking legitimately decent, & of course WCS Korea/gsl code s has been great so far & always is.
I really hope that the remaining 4 spots will also be taken by Koreans, and the majority of low skill NA players invited to Premier for season 1 will be knocked out, so that in Season 2 there will be 25+ Koreans.
Maybe then Blizzard will reconsider this WCS system that made GSL and OSL merely a qualifiers with just a 20K$ prize for the winner.
I thought it was pretty entertaining, kinda sucks that the Koreans won like everybody expected by at-least they are from American organizations. I hope demuslim can pull through tommorow
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
You mean the MLG which was one of the first big tournaments to play HoTS, and had Flash in it, with all the interest he, Innovation, Life etc bring to the table?
so...
that essentially proves top koreans bring more viewers than EU/NA players..
what was your point again?
It's disingenuous to use the first truly stacked HoTS tournament numbers to validate a point, while disregarding the impressive numbers WCS pulled in when for many WoL was a stagnant experience.
for one, first hots event or second or Nth, it would not have mattered..
it doesn't change the fact that top koreans bring more viewers compared to top EU/NA players though, does it?
Hots was the thing that half people watched. Say few more tournaments where korean only tournament have got more viewers than wsc eu
On April 21 2013 16:11 MarineFTW wrote: I really hope that the remaining 4 spots will also be taken by Koreans, and the majority of low skill NA players invited to Premier for season 1 will be knocked out, so that in Season 2 there will be 25+ Koreans.
Maybe then Blizzard will reconsider this WCS system that made GSL and OSL merely a qualifiers with just a 20K$ prize for the winner.
On April 21 2013 16:00 Barta wrote: I can't really wrap my head around NA players complaining about only koreans qualifying for WCS NA. All of the koreans left in the qualifier are on non-korean teams ( even all NA teams ?). So either the teams think that is a good idea to have koreans in the WCS NA or they dont care about their own player as long as they are not korean.
I don't think koreans should have been invited to the WCS NA, but complaining about koreans and have your own koreans qualifying is pretty hypocritical in my opinion.
You can't blame teams for doing what is best for their sponsors and players. You can blame organizers for making a terrible rule-set.
Not arguing the rule-set isn't terrible as it is now, but if they made it residential locked the same player would qualify. Making it only accessible by player born in NA/SA would be even more terrible than it is now
If the point is to develop NA scene then residency requirement may be good enough. As long as those players stay in NA, practice in a team house there and play the local ladder they develop the scene. On the other hand if all they do is stay in Korea and have a two week holiday for prize-money grab then not so much.
Not sure why anyone would even mention the EU qualifier in comparison to this. With Koreans like Alicia, JYP, Oz, CranK, TheStC, Heart, Revival, JD, Zenio and others the level of competition is ridiculous. Incomparable to the few Koreans who were playing in the EU qualifier who could never hold a candle to these players on top of having to deal with what is by all accounts much worse latency from Korea. What should be apparent however between these two tournaments is how Korean domination has crippled the foreigner scene in the Americas. Every NA tournament is dominated by amazing Korean players which is great for the tournament organizers who draw amazing viewership but starving to the home scene. People say the NA players don't deserve the prize money because they are so bad, but seriously it isn't about the prize money, it is about growth.
All we care about are the story lines that could be fostered by this sort of competition, but instead we are given more of the same. Go ahead and shift the majority of the prize money back to the GSL, they have earned it, but next season there need to be some serious changes.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
doesn't sound exciting at all.. start watching some GSL or SPL man
I watch all SC2 leagues.
so... you've watched GSL and SPL, MLG...etc., and yet you think EU qualifiers was "the best and most entertaining tournament you've ever watched......ok....... lmao
Lol. He means wsc 2012 eu.
So, all this time when you have said that mgl hots tournament got viewers; you have been comparing it to wsc 2013 eu qualifications that got +40k viewers...
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
On April 21 2013 16:20 Champloo wrote: Well, we just have to wait for next year, where Blizzard hopefully will get it right.
This WCS "NA" is a joke so far and I believe by season 3 there will be 32 out of 32 Koreans in Premier Division.
Yeah, actually this sounds like a good plan. If there are 32 Koreans in WCS NA, there is no need to play in on NA server, there will be less lag on KR. Furthermore, the onsite rounds can be also played in KR to save some travel expenses.
Because the Koreans on WCS NA would be still less skilled on average compared to WCS KR, more and more eSF players will move to WCS NA, and we will have:
WCS NA = eFS + EG + TL + Axiom = old GSL WCS KR = Kespa = old OSL
Feel bad for Demuslim... Seems pretty likely he would have qualified easily for EU (or even would have gotten invited), and seems pretty likely he will not qualify for AM. And to top it all off, he's a better player than at least several of the players invited.
Edit: And if he doesn't qualify, it will most likely be exclusively due to losses to "teammates" :S
On April 21 2013 16:20 Champloo wrote: Well, we just have to wait for next year, where Blizzard hopefully will get it right.
This WCS "NA" is a joke so far and I believe by season 3 there will be 32 out of 32 Koreans in Premier Division.
Yeah, actually this sounds like a good plan. If there are 32 Koreans in WCS NA, there is no need to play in on NA server, there will be less lag on KR. Furthermore, the onsite rounds can be also played in KR to save some travel expenses.
Because the Koreans on WCS NA would be still less skilled on average compared to WCS KR, more and more eSF players will move to WCS NA, and we will have:
WCS NA = eFS + EG + TL + Axiom = old GSL WCS KR = Kespa = old OSL
Then we will have GSL vs OSL Season Finals.
Sick!
Yes, and after the first season of that, the viewership will drop tenfold, the prize money/team sponsorships will soon follow, and then the players will move on to LoL. Awesome plan. :D
It's unfortunate. If WCS stays how it is, non-korean Starcraft II will most likely end with our current generation of pros. Theres just no way to make a living off of it.
I hope I'm wrong! And I love watching koreans play anyway, but it is nice seeing foreigners.
-Region lock it based on teams. Teams will be required to have their members maintain an active ladder presence in the region they choose to play in. I have no idea how they'd enforce it, more conceptual than anything (free agents get free choice) -Disallow team switching past a certain point in a yearly season -Give more money to the regional finals of the region that won the last WCS, second highest to the region that placed closer to first than the other region. tie breakers if necessary.
This does quite a few things: 1- Breeds pride. Even if you don't win WCS, you want your highest ranking regional representative to take it for more possible money. 2- Forces commitment. Being locked in to regions/teams for a year is a huge commitment, and those that don't want to do it simply wont. Helps to make players care. 3- Allows us North American fans to have our league that we care about but doesn't hurt anyone else's viewing pleasure 4- Increases quality of game play. By forcing players to play with others in the same region, you increase overall quality. 5- Allows the option to have true LCS-like events completely offline with amazing production values.
The important thing I want to point to is my number 3. I don't understand what us wanting a North American populated North American Qualifier has any bearing on those of you who want to see Koreans play. Just simply don't watch the North American Qualifier?
Nobody who is for a North American populated qualifier wants to take away from other players. That's all Blizzard's doing and CatZ even said it in his state of the game address that he didn't care if the prize money was shit compared to Korea/EU. Give it all to them for all I care, but give us an opportunity to make names for ourselves, even if it's only within our own scene. In time the NA scene will start to grow, just like the EU scene will continue to grow, just like the KR scene will continue to... do whatever it's been doing.
So much animosity and elitism when all a lot of us want is the ability to watch our local pros stand proud in victory every now and again.
On April 21 2013 16:37 Type|NarutO wrote: No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
I guess seeing code B Koreans is much better There's really very little reason to watch this when you can watch GSL. 4 hours/day is already more time than most people should be spending on this, even if it's only half watching it on the other monitor.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
So aside from the fact that I don't think my posts warranted any of that insulting bullshit you spouted, I'm also not saying a goddamned thing about money.
Never did I say NA pros needed the same chance to win the same money that a korean player should have the chance to win. I do however think that in a tournament that's meant to represent us, we should have the opportunity to have our players do that.
And for the record, I would fucking love to see QXC, Nony and Fitzy take 3 spots in the region they live in, and quite possibly go out 0-3 in the wcs finals because they fucking made it there fighting their peers. I would watch every single game where they get demolished by Life, MC and MVP because I am proud of them. They play on my server. They live on my continent. They are people I can play if I get good enough. Don't underestimate the viewership and prestige these players could earn themselves and esports as a whole regardless of whether or not they go out 0-3 to a superior Korean player in the finals.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
So aside from the fact that I don't think my posts warranted any of that insulting bullshit you spouted, I'm also not saying a goddamned thing about money.
Never did I say NA pros needed the same chance to win the same money that a korean player should have the chance to win. I do however think that in a tournament that's meant to represent us, we should have the opportunity to have our players do that.
And for the record, I would fucking love to see QXC, Nony and Fitzy take 3 spots in the region they live in, and quite possibly go out 0-3 in the wcs finals because they fucking made it there fighting their peers. I would watch every single game where they get demolished by Life, MC and MVP because I am proud of them. They play on my server. They live on my continent. They are people I can play if I get good enough. Don't underestimate the viewership and prestige these players could earn themselves and esports as a whole regardless of whether or not they go out 0-3 to a superior Korean player in the finals.
That's where you're all wrong. The tournament isn't meant to represent "you" or "NA" or whatever. If that's the kind of tournament you want to see, gather your own 1,6 million and get it organised.
In the meantime, let's all praise Blizzard for not having QXC, Nony or Fitzy at the WCS until they're ready for it.
On April 21 2013 17:00 Jarree wrote: If a NA player goes through the qualifiers, he shall be crowned king arthur.
Haha, this is exactly as I feel. But yeah, the competition coming from Korea is just too strong, the NA players are just not ready yet. Now what I am really looking forward to is wether the NA scene manages to increase their performance before the WCS is softly region locked due to being played "offline". The recent trends with EG and Root moving to California does look good.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
So aside from the fact that I don't think my posts warranted any of that insulting bullshit you spouted, I'm also not saying a goddamned thing about money.
Never did I say NA pros needed the same chance to win the same money that a korean player should have the chance to win. I do however think that in a tournament that's meant to represent us, we should have the opportunity to have our players do that.
And for the record, I would fucking love to see QXC, Nony and Fitzy take 3 spots in the region they live in, and quite possibly go out 0-3 in the wcs finals because they fucking made it there fighting their peers. I would watch every single game where they get demolished by Life, MC and MVP because I am proud of them. They play on my server. They live on my continent. They are people I can play if I get good enough. Don't underestimate the viewership and prestige these players could earn themselves and esports as a whole regardless of whether or not they go out 0-3 to a superior Korean player in the finals.
You say Koreans have no story behind them which is not just ignorant but its shifting towards being racist. 'They all look the same, all play the same and don't do anything'. Well for that matter, I don't blame you for not speaking Korean but if you want to get infos about a player and if you would just have the tiniest bit of interest in them, you would get your hand on information about them, because I can tell you that most Koreans are actually more interesting than herpa derp I can play a cheesy style and be entertaining foreigner.
I am not saying its bad to see locals at a final, I'm saying its bad to ban the others. If NonY and all your favorite locals are not capable of reaching the final, they are not worthy and should not fucking be there. Blizzard cheated the Koreans to begin with, what did they expect? Koreans are not stupid, if they need to pick to qualify for 250000$ or not to qualify, hell I know where I am going.
You can be proud as long as you want, but if you keep telling yourself that NonY is more deserving of his NA seed/place whatever than Center or Apocalypse... sorry man, just no. If you arrange such a tournament with a major status and money, you have to keep it real and let the big guns take their shot. We already have enough people invited that are a shame to begin with and make the scene laughable.
If you want local competition to rise aka NonY, qxc, Fitze and who else, you better do minor leagues with not hundrets of thousands of dollars so its actually worth for locals to participate but not for Koreans. Do you think Koreans would play if its about 1000$ ? Its about 150 000 regional finals and 250 000 global final. And really I cannot believe you would want to watch another 0-3 Minigun vs Life in 20 minutes compared to an epic potentially bo5 series between two of the best players that easily have a story behind them...
There is a difference in not being interested in the player and calling him out as soulless machine
I don't want to see a Missourian representing Missouri. I want to see a Texan representing Missouri. Now that I think about it, I want Canadians representing Missouri, because they're even better. Whether Americans suck or not, at least they're Americans...
There's 0 way for the NA scene to win under the current conditions, besides the 24 that got invites. This will probably be the fewest amount of Koreans ever competing in NA unless things change, and look how that's going. Furthermore, due to lag between KR and NA, the Koreans won't be equally splitting between NA and EU. There's nothing fair about this. People want to call NA bad, yet Demuslim, one of the best foreign players, would have had an easier time qualifying in EU. How does that help a scene that's supposedly already behind EU? Will making it hard enough that Stephano couldn't qualify in NA make it better? That's going to really motivate people.
EU is fine. Korea is fine. NA? MLG still gets some Koreans. I'd like to see foreigners playing against Koreans, but I'd also like to see them winning stuff along the way, so maybe they can sustain the ability to practice and focus on the game.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
That was the best and most entertaining tournament I have ever watched.
doesn't sound exciting at all.. start watching some GSL or SPL man
I watch all SC2 leagues.
so... you've watched GSL and SPL, MLG...etc., and yet you think EU qualifiers was "the best and most entertaining tournament you've ever watched......ok....... lmao
WCS EU was the most entertaining event for many europeans incluing me, and yes I watch all the big ones.
If the players are too bad they don't deserve to be in the big thing. I don't know why you want to lock regions. Yes it will be cool and all, some NA players will be in there but they will get completly destroyed by the Koreans (there is also the big deal koreans in the real thing) so the big tournament who's supposed to show the elite of SC2 will be a snozefest because NA will get destroyed and officialy waste rounds of fun for spectators.
It's exactly like Dota 2 with TI2, Valve tried to make it fair by inviting teams from every scene yet people were crying because a lot more asian teams were invited. At the end of the day every single NA team died around the first round and every EU team except Na`Vi lost pretty fast too.
It's not good show if some players/team are wasted games.
On April 21 2013 16:00 Barta wrote: I can't really wrap my head around NA players complaining about only koreans qualifying for WCS NA. All of the koreans left in the qualifier are on non-korean teams ( even all NA teams ?). So either the teams think that is a good idea to have koreans in the WCS NA or they dont care about their own player as long as they are not korean.
I don't think koreans should have been invited to the WCS NA, but complaining about koreans and have your own koreans qualifying is pretty hypocritical in my opinion.
I agree 100%
I also think that Blizzard thought just the traveling would limit the Koreans more. Look at how many Koreans would be here if none of the na teams had Koreans? Barely anyone..
All it takes is to play more and more offline requiring them to stay in the us or face a huge travel cost. Does not really need a region lock then.
On April 21 2013 17:15 playa wrote: I don't want to see a Missourian representing Missouri. I want to see a Texan representing Missouri. Now that I think about it, I want Canadians representing Missouri, because they're even better. Whether Americans suck or not, at least they're Americans...
There's 0 way for the NA scene to win under the current conditions, besides the 24 that got invites. This will probably be the fewest amount of Koreans ever competing in NA unless things change, and look how that's going. Furthermore, due to lag between KR and NA, the Koreans won't be equally splitting between NA and EU. There's nothing fair about this. People want to call NA bad, yet Demuslim, one of the best foreign players, would have had an easier time qualifying in EU. How does that help a scene that's supposedly already behind EU? Will making it hard enough that Stephano couldn't qualify in NA make it better? That's going to really motivate people.
EU is fine. Korea is fine. NA? MLG still gets some Koreans. I'd like to see foreigners playing against Koreans, but I'd also like to see them winning stuff along the way, so maybe they can sustain the ability to practice and focus on the game.
DemusliM first of all is European and should in my opinion have gotten a seed there, but thats a fuck up of WCS. But I have to strongly disagree. If you really believe DemusliM would have had an easy time on Europe, you are nuts. I am not even trying to bash the NA scene here, but the talent pool and overall average is insanely high on Europe.
Don't even take the Koreans that participated but check out the players that got kicked out during the qualifiers. There's easily enough people that are fully capable of beating DemusliM. While I think he would have had a better shot at EU, that certainly is not due to him being better than EU, but due to the EU system. 4 qualifiers with 2 of them having unlimited participate numbers makes a better chance for a good player to qualify.
Actually I would have loved to see not the winners but a point-system so 4 times #Ro4 would have gotten you in for example.
I do like Crank, but at the same time, I do wish that more North American locals would make it through. Skill being the most important thing is fine and all but the SC2 pro scene could use some more Yoloswags tbh
It's a shame that the region locking and the integration of the GSL into the WCS is screwing everyone over
On April 21 2013 17:23 wozzot wrote: I do like Crank, but at the same time, I do wish that more North American locals would make it through. Skill being the most important thing is fine and all but the SC2 pro scene could use some more Yoloswags tbh
It's a shame that the region locking and the integration of the GSL into the WCS is screwing everyone over
Got yoloswag with invited players? :x
xxxYoLoSwAgxx got taken out by TheSTC ;_; At least that's what it says
On April 21 2013 17:23 wozzot wrote: I do like Crank, but at the same time, I do wish that more North American locals would make it through. Skill being the most important thing is fine and all but the SC2 pro scene could use some more Yoloswags tbh
It's a shame that the region locking and the integration of the GSL into the WCS is screwing everyone over
I agree with the point, that koreans should not take part in the european and north american qualifiers. I think they are not even a "european" or "north american" qualifiers, when everybody can take part. So they just should call it qualifier 1, 2 and 3. (Well, korean qualifiers really are korean qualifiers).
But i also think, that regions outside of this 3 regions should get own qualifiers. ppl from China or asia in general can't keep up with gsl (who can?). Also ppl from africa can't qualify. I remember Pandatank (south africa) was playing good in EU qualifier but in the end he could not beat XlorD just cause of high ping and strong lag issues. And are there no good players in south america? They should not name it "WORLD championship" if its just about 3 areas, no matter if they are the most popular ones or the one with the strongest players. thats my 2 cent.
On April 21 2013 17:15 playa wrote: I don't want to see a Missourian representing Missouri. I want to see a Texan representing Missouri. Now that I think about it, I want Canadians representing Missouri, because they're even better. Whether Americans suck or not, at least they're Americans...
There's 0 way for the NA scene to win under the current conditions, besides the 24 that got invites. This will probably be the fewest amount of Koreans ever competing in NA unless things change, and look how that's going. Furthermore, due to lag between KR and NA, the Koreans won't be equally splitting between NA and EU. There's nothing fair about this. People want to call NA bad, yet Demuslim, one of the best foreign players, would have had an easier time qualifying in EU. How does that help a scene that's supposedly already behind EU? Will making it hard enough that Stephano couldn't qualify in NA make it better? That's going to really motivate people.
EU is fine. Korea is fine. NA? MLG still gets some Koreans. I'd like to see foreigners playing against Koreans, but I'd also like to see them winning stuff along the way, so maybe they can sustain the ability to practice and focus on the game.
DemusliM first of all is European and should in my opinion have gotten a seed there, but thats a fuck up of WCS. But I have to strongly disagree. If you really believe DemusliM would have had an easy time on Europe, you are nuts. I am not even trying to bash the NA scene here, but the talent pool and overall average is insanely high on Europe.
Don't even take the Koreans that participated but check out the players that got kicked out during the qualifiers. There's easily enough people that are fully capable of beating DemusliM. While I think he would have had a better shot at EU, that certainly is not due to him being better than EU, but due to the EU system. 4 qualifiers with 2 of them having unlimited participate numbers makes a better chance for a good player to qualify.
Actually I would have loved to see not the winners but a point-system so 4 times #Ro4 would have gotten you in for example.
All this tournament does is encourage NA teams to recruit Koreans instead of foreigners. That's about it. And yes, Demuslim would have an easier time making it out of a group of players that he's better than, regardless of format.
On April 21 2013 16:20 Champloo wrote: Well, we just have to wait for next year, where Blizzard hopefully will get it right.
This WCS "NA" is a joke so far and I believe by season 3 there will be 32 out of 32 Koreans in Premier Division.
Yeah, actually this sounds like a good plan. If there are 32 Koreans in WCS NA, there is no need to play in on NA server, there will be less lag on KR. Furthermore, the onsite rounds can be also played in KR to save some travel expenses.
Because the Koreans on WCS NA would be still less skilled on average compared to WCS KR, more and more eSF players will move to WCS NA, and we will have:
WCS NA = eFS + EG + TL + Axiom = old GSL WCS KR = Kespa = old OSL
Then we will have GSL vs OSL Season Finals.
Sick!
Yes, and after the first season of that, the viewership will drop tenfold, the prize money/team sponsorships will soon follow, and then the players will move on to LoL. Awesome plan. :D
In this new system most of the prize money is provided by Blizzard, so as long as they are fine with this system, it won't change.
On April 21 2013 17:15 playa wrote: I don't want to see a Missourian representing Missouri. I want to see a Texan representing Missouri. Now that I think about it, I want Canadians representing Missouri, because they're even better. Whether Americans suck or not, at least they're Americans...
There's 0 way for the NA scene to win under the current conditions, besides the 24 that got invites. This will probably be the fewest amount of Koreans ever competing in NA unless things change, and look how that's going. Furthermore, due to lag between KR and NA, the Koreans won't be equally splitting between NA and EU. There's nothing fair about this. People want to call NA bad, yet Demuslim, one of the best foreign players, would have had an easier time qualifying in EU. How does that help a scene that's supposedly already behind EU? Will making it hard enough that Stephano couldn't qualify in NA make it better? That's going to really motivate people.
EU is fine. Korea is fine. NA? MLG still gets some Koreans. I'd like to see foreigners playing against Koreans, but I'd also like to see them winning stuff along the way, so maybe they can sustain the ability to practice and focus on the game.
DemusliM first of all is European and should in my opinion have gotten a seed there, but thats a fuck up of WCS. But I have to strongly disagree. If you really believe DemusliM would have had an easy time on Europe, you are nuts. I am not even trying to bash the NA scene here, but the talent pool and overall average is insanely high on Europe.
Don't even take the Koreans that participated but check out the players that got kicked out during the qualifiers. There's easily enough people that are fully capable of beating DemusliM. While I think he would have had a better shot at EU, that certainly is not due to him being better than EU, but due to the EU system. 4 qualifiers with 2 of them having unlimited participate numbers makes a better chance for a good player to qualify.
Actually I would have loved to see not the winners but a point-system so 4 times #Ro4 would have gotten you in for example.
All this tournament does is encourage NA teams to recruit Koreans instead of foreigners. That's about it. And yes, Demuslim would have an easier time making it out of a group of players that he's better than, regardless of format.
Point being, DemusliM is not better than majority of EU top players that participated. You can like him all you want, I really do too, but its simply not true.
All the tournament would do, if you ban Koreans it raise a huge hickup in eSports. If any media (internet , esports related) would get a grasp on it, oh boy, you can shut down that stuff.
Honestly, I think this is ridiculous. Of course, participation shouldn't be restricted by nationality. But I think residency would be a fair measurement. For instance, if you want to compete in the European qualifier for this year's season, you have to live in the European region for at least six months in the given time. This would guarantee a fair representation of each region.
But then again, they shouldn't have f`****d up the Korean qualifier to begin with...
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
So aside from the fact that I don't think my posts warranted any of that insulting bullshit you spouted, I'm also not saying a goddamned thing about money.
Never did I say NA pros needed the same chance to win the same money that a korean player should have the chance to win. I do however think that in a tournament that's meant to represent us, we should have the opportunity to have our players do that.
And for the record, I would fucking love to see QXC, Nony and Fitzy take 3 spots in the region they live in, and quite possibly go out 0-3 in the wcs finals because they fucking made it there fighting their peers. I would watch every single game where they get demolished by Life, MC and MVP because I am proud of them. They play on my server. They live on my continent. They are people I can play if I get good enough. Don't underestimate the viewership and prestige these players could earn themselves and esports as a whole regardless of whether or not they go out 0-3 to a superior Korean player in the finals.
You say Koreans have no story behind them which is not just ignorant but its shifting towards being racist. 'They all look the same, all play the same and don't do anything'. Well for that matter, I don't blame you for not speaking Korean but if you want to get infos about a player and if you would just have the tiniest bit of interest in them, you would get your hand on information about them, because I can tell you that most Koreans are actually more interesting than herpa derp I can play a cheesy style and be entertaining foreigner.
I am not saying its bad to see locals at a final, I'm saying its bad to ban the others. If NonY and all your favorite locals are not capable of reaching the final, they are not worthy and should not fucking be there. Blizzard cheated the Koreans to begin with, what did they expect? Koreans are not stupid, if they need to pick to qualify for 250000$ or not to qualify, hell I know where I am going.
You can be proud as long as you want, but if you keep telling yourself that NonY is more deserving of his NA seed/place whatever than Center or Apocalypse... sorry man, just no. If you arrange such a tournament with a major status and money, you have to keep it real and let the big guns take their shot. We already have enough people invited that are a shame to begin with and make the scene laughable.
If you want local competition to rise aka NonY, qxc, Fitze and who else, you better do minor leagues with not hundrets of thousands of dollars so its actually worth for locals to participate but not for Koreans. Do you think Koreans would play if its about 1000$ ? Its about 150 000 regional finals and 250 000 global final. And really I cannot believe you would want to watch another 0-3 Minigun vs Life in 20 minutes compared to an epic potentially bo5 series between two of the best players that easily have a story behind them...
There is a difference in not being interested in the player and calling him out as soulless machine
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't think all koreans look the same, I don't think they are soulless, I don't think they have no stories.
I think they have few stories that I care about (some exceptions such as Flash/Life), I think I can't relate to them in many ways, I think they are not representing me.
I think I have a right to believe what I believe, that a North American resident deserves a spot in a North American Qualifier. I mean at this point you might as well just have a single offline qualifier (GSL) and then an online qualifier that encompasses everyone else for all the good it would do.
I also have a right to not be insulted here. I cannot conceivably believe you think it's OK to spout that shit. The sheer audacity you must have to imply that kind of thing about another person who in no way even hinted that he believed a race of people were "Soulless machines" is so mindblowing to me. Thread is yours, dude. Keep being that reason people are afraid to speak their minds and go against the vocal minority.
I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play.
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
So aside from the fact that I don't think my posts warranted any of that insulting bullshit you spouted, I'm also not saying a goddamned thing about money.
Never did I say NA pros needed the same chance to win the same money that a korean player should have the chance to win. I do however think that in a tournament that's meant to represent us, we should have the opportunity to have our players do that.
And for the record, I would fucking love to see QXC, Nony and Fitzy take 3 spots in the region they live in, and quite possibly go out 0-3 in the wcs finals because they fucking made it there fighting their peers. I would watch every single game where they get demolished by Life, MC and MVP because I am proud of them. They play on my server. They live on my continent. They are people I can play if I get good enough. Don't underestimate the viewership and prestige these players could earn themselves and esports as a whole regardless of whether or not they go out 0-3 to a superior Korean player in the finals.
You say Koreans have no story behind them which is not just ignorant but its shifting towards being racist. 'They all look the same, all play the same and don't do anything'. Well for that matter, I don't blame you for not speaking Korean but if you want to get infos about a player and if you would just have the tiniest bit of interest in them, you would get your hand on information about them, because I can tell you that most Koreans are actually more interesting than herpa derp I can play a cheesy style and be entertaining foreigner.
I am not saying its bad to see locals at a final, I'm saying its bad to ban the others. If NonY and all your favorite locals are not capable of reaching the final, they are not worthy and should not fucking be there. Blizzard cheated the Koreans to begin with, what did they expect? Koreans are not stupid, if they need to pick to qualify for 250000$ or not to qualify, hell I know where I am going.
You can be proud as long as you want, but if you keep telling yourself that NonY is more deserving of his NA seed/place whatever than Center or Apocalypse... sorry man, just no. If you arrange such a tournament with a major status and money, you have to keep it real and let the big guns take their shot. We already have enough people invited that are a shame to begin with and make the scene laughable.
If you want local competition to rise aka NonY, qxc, Fitze and who else, you better do minor leagues with not hundrets of thousands of dollars so its actually worth for locals to participate but not for Koreans. Do you think Koreans would play if its about 1000$ ? Its about 150 000 regional finals and 250 000 global final. And really I cannot believe you would want to watch another 0-3 Minigun vs Life in 20 minutes compared to an epic potentially bo5 series between two of the best players that easily have a story behind them...
There is a difference in not being interested in the player and calling him out as soulless machine
Don't put words in my mouth. I don't think all koreans look the same, I don't think they are soulless, I don't think they have no stories.
I think they have few stories that I care about (some exceptions such as Flash/Life), I think I can't relate to them in many ways, I think they are not representing me.
I think I have a right to believe what I believe, that a North American resident deserves a spot in a North American Qualifier. I mean at this point you might as well just have a single offline qualifier (GSL) and then an online qualifier that encompasses everyone else for all the good it would do.
I also have a right to not be insulted here. I cannot conceivably believe you think it's OK to spout that shit. The sheer audacity you must have to imply that kind of thing about another person who in no way even hinted that he believed a race of people were "Soulless machines" is so mindblowing to me. Thread is yours, dude. Keep being that reason people are afraid to speak their minds and go against the vocal minority.
I am not hostile nor do I attack you for no reason. There's a reason I am still around with over 14000 posts right? If I were an immature dick, I would have been banned long ago. You posted
'I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind.'
And I don't put any words in your mouth with saying that this basically states that Koreans don't have a storyline you could follow. I actually don't really know how you could say any Korean would have less story than a foreigner, because most rivalries arise from good players that meet often. I never said I want 100% Koreans in a tournament, I am saying I want fair competition and if it leads to majority being Korean and a few foreigners, those foreigners you can be proud of because they deserve and earned their spot.
Are you really proud if someone like NonY would blast through the field with no competition to 'represent' you or NA for that matter in a big final? Did he earn his spot? Do you really want unfair competition? Because that is exactly what your statement is going towards. To even out qualifiers and Koreans, you got invites. Check out how many Koreans got one of the 24 seeds and check out how many non-Koreans (NA players) got them.
Do you really think its fair that HelloKitty or Capoch are in over (lust as example) DemusliM or Apocalypse? The invite system alone is not fair, but I can understand that you invite locals over Koreans to not alienate the complete tournament, but really if you have qualifiers, please non-Koreans step up the game or don't complain.
Well, whether or not NA dudes make it through because you ban non-residents, they will eventually have to face skilled players (at the finals for example) and lose. The best solution is to get better first, and get some wins only then. They're already starting doing that: with strong Koreans laddering on NA, they're getting much better practice. I was enjoying these last days how Demuslim was really excited to play Byun several times in a row. Even though he lost a majority of the games, he did win some, and definitely improved his TvT imo.
Plus, I watched those qualifiers and have had the chance to see some third-rate foreigners' games, which I wouldn't have done if not for the presence of good players (even if they're not american). It definitely brings more spotlight on NA locals. Another WCS NA finals wouldn't have done that, I don't care at all about a ZvZ finals between Vibe and I-don't-know-who-anymore (Scarlett?).
For me, WCS is a success so far. NA qualifiers could have gone a bit smoother: filtering out maphackers earlier in the bracket, not letting Hyun waste his time trying to qualify where he isn't able to, and not so much downtime between games in the earlier rounds :D
I don't know. I'll watch WCS KR to see some top games and WCS EU to watch top foreigners. I'm quite sad for WCS NA, though. It just doesn't have the story line.
I'm happy for WCS EU. I'll finaly get to know EU scene better.
Hm wait what? Only 2 foreigners was able to take down a Korean, out of 512 players? All the other Koreans only lost to other Koreans? Damn that is harsh, the US scene needs to step it up a notch.
sc2 has a main problem (what 95% of other rts game dont have): the higher the quality, the more boring games (except TvT). Koreans are the best to play in best quality. It is not koreans mistake, it is sc2 or blizzard mistake.
On April 21 2013 17:56 Dingodile wrote: sc2 has a main problem (what 95% of other rts game dont have): the higher the quality, the more boring games (except TvT). Koreans are the best to play in best quality. It is not koreans mistake, it is sc2 or blizzard mistake.
Better games are less boring. Regardless of match up
On April 21 2013 17:51 ZenithM wrote: One day I'll understand what "storylines" people are referring to.
The only way I can buy " storylines " is if you're a high ranked player on NA and you know all the NA players, personally I know way more about Korean players on average.
On April 21 2013 17:55 CarlosOmse wrote: poor americans!! hopefully the start the offline shit erlier so the koreans have to fully commit to the na if they wanna steal their money
nah just blame canada, but be warned: We are canadian, not retarded, it's different!
What's kind of strange to me is comparing WCS to something like the NHL. If you could only present local players, Alberta, British Columbia, Quebec and Ontario would utterly dominate the NHL, leaving nothing much for places like Nashville or Los Angeles. With that in mind, perhaps there is a flaw with the invite system and indeed how they do their brackets? If you want to allow people from other regions to qualify, why not do a draft with captains and etc? Either way it'll be korean domination but it gives us a "team" to get behind that "represents" the region.
On April 21 2013 17:37 coverpunch wrote: I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play.
It's just not that simple. With the way things are, it is simply not possible for North Americans to defeat Koreans, ever. Firstly, there is simply no way for a North American to sustain himself until he becomes good enough to compete at the levels of the players you mentioned. Most go to college, or have a job, and have to play after they get home from their daily commute. The Koreans you mentioned, are already well established. They don't need to sustain themselves, because they play for a team who gives them a house to live in, and food to eat. Furthermore, they're exposed to the best practice environment possible. They have lag free access to the best ladder in the world, they live in a house with top notch players from all the different races with whom they can practice, exchange strategies etc, and someone like Oz also gets a legendary coach (not to mention secondary coaches) to help them perfect their skills and make sure not to slack. Without a similar infrastructure, it is simply not possible for foreigners to catch up. Period.
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
Same with EU though.
Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets.
For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1.
Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
Same with EU though.
Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets.
For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1.
Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
Though most of the Korean deaths in the WCS EU were not caused by reasons, where a higher latency would matter all that much.
Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch
What's worst is I can actually tell you what the "sick storylines" are. I just have to pick some guy that I don't know of who managed to get pretty high up in the bracket, and it's probably a sick storyline, i.e. way cooler than having those faceless boring Koreans qualify.
For example, "hendralisk" taking out Nony and almost making it past a Chinese no-name is probably the sickest storyline there is. For EU, the sick storyline would be "Bunny" qualifying, after having made a name for himself in...hm.. danish LANs I guess?
So sick.
I'm kinda joking of course, it's cool for no-names to take some wins, I just don't get how it makes for a good story. I guess I'm just happy to witness good Starcraft, and that often does not correlate with t3h storylines :D
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
Same with EU though.
Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets.
For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1.
Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
Most Koreans lost not just not in bo1, but bo3 in EU qualifiers, but also didn't lose just 1 but multiple bo3.
On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch
If you want the best games, you still won't watch WCS NA, you will watch GSL, GSTL and Pro League.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Yes they live in a region that have a WCS qualfier with far superior talent, fewer relative qualifier spots and similar prize pool. Tell me more how it's so unfair to the rest of the world. And how is it snuffing out local competition when the MLG's were dominated by Korean's regardless before this change. At most it just is more of the same.
On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
For the point "i want to see good games" you are maybe right. (But it sounds a bit like "everything beneath korean pros are bad" for me). But I think you missing the point of the most people then, who want to have gamer from their region to take part of this "world" championship. Also you can see korean vs korean in every other major tournament.
However I understand your argument and your point of view.
On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch
If you want the best games, you still won't watch WCS NA, you will watch GSL, GSTL and Pro League.
the wcs na itself will be fine with all the koreans in it, just the qualifiar is not worthwhile to watch (for me) but that has a lot to do with how poorly it is run (1 stream / cast with bad casters) for example and poor choice of games actually shown.
On April 21 2013 17:37 coverpunch wrote: I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play.
It's just not that simple. With the way things are, it is simply not possible for North Americans to defeat Koreans, ever. Firstly, there is simply no way for a North American to sustain himself until he becomes good enough to compete at the levels of the players you mentioned. Most go to college, or have a job, and have to play after they get home from their daily commute. The Koreans you mentioned, are already well established. They don't need to sustain themselves, because they play for a team who gives them a house to live in, and food to eat. Furthermore, they're exposed to the best practice environment possible. They have lag free access to the best ladder in the world, they live in a house with top notch players from all the different races with whom they can practice, exchange strategies etc, and someone like Oz also gets a legendary coach (not to mention secondary coaches) to help them perfect their skills and make sure not to slack. Without a similar infrastructure, it is simply not possible for foreigners to catch up. Period.
Infrastructure makes this a Catch-22. Without players of high quality, there's no infrastructure, but with no infrastructure, you can't have players of high quality. But my point follows yours - isolating NA players from Koreans is the wrong direction. You certainly will not build sustainable infrastructure or competitive players if NA players only play Koreans at the premier events but otherwise avoid them.
I think you make a contradictory point, however, in stating that North American pros often choose other things to do. If a NA pro is going to college and playing the game on the side, by definition he is not a professional. It's no different if a college accounting major leaves early to go to the NBA. We don't call that person an accountant and wonder why they don't pass the CPA exam. That person is a basketball player.
If we're talking about building some kind of minor league or something in NA to help build up players, we can have that conversation. But saying Koreans playing in WCS NA is a bad thing because the Koreans will win, that's just dumb.
On April 21 2013 17:51 ZenithM wrote: One day I'll understand what "storylines" people are referring to.
I think it's a sugarcoating term for "drama" or "not game related tidbits I find interesting" similar to the stuff that gets written about hollywood stars or European aristocrats in the rainbow press.
just poking fun, don't take it too serious, don't want to devalue anyone's opinion on this it's just that this storyline talkgets used way too often in these discussions
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Yes they live in a region that have a WCS qualfier with far superior talent, fewer relative qualifier spots and similar prize pool. Tell me more how it's so unfair to the rest of the world. And how is it snuffing out local competition when the MLG's were dominated by Korean's regardless before this change. At most it just is more of the same.
Actually, Korean Code A is much more rewarding, and much more inclusive than EU/NA Challenger League.
Maybe people just don't want to watch yet another Korean-dominated MLG. There's the regular MLG tournament for that. WCS, on the other hand, was about local talent, at least last year.
On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate.
Same with EU though.
Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets.
For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1.
Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
In four qualifiers, only three Koreans were eliminated in BO1. TAiLS in the first qualifier, Shuttle in the second qualifier, and Daisy in the fourth qualifier. At all other times, Koreans were eliminated in BO3s.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
On April 21 2013 17:37 coverpunch wrote: I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play.
It's just not that simple. With the way things are, it is simply not possible for North Americans to defeat Koreans, ever. Firstly, there is simply no way for a North American to sustain himself until he becomes good enough to compete at the levels of the players you mentioned. Most go to college, or have a job, and have to play after they get home from their daily commute. The Koreans you mentioned, are already well established. They don't need to sustain themselves, because they play for a team who gives them a house to live in, and food to eat. Furthermore, they're exposed to the best practice environment possible. They have lag free access to the best ladder in the world, they live in a house with top notch players from all the different races with whom they can practice, exchange strategies etc, and someone like Oz also gets a legendary coach (not to mention secondary coaches) to help them perfect their skills and make sure not to slack. Without a similar infrastructure, it is simply not possible for foreigners to catch up. Period.
Infrastructure makes this a Catch-22. Without players of high quality, there's no infrastructure, but with no infrastructure, you can't have players of high quality. But my point follows yours - isolating NA players from Koreans is the wrong direction. You certainly will not build sustainable infrastructure or competitive players if NA players only play Koreans at the premier events but otherwise avoid them.
I think you make a contradictory point, however, in stating that North American pros often choose other things to do. If a NA pro is going to college and playing the game on the side, by definition he is not a professional. It's no different if a college accounting major leaves early to go to the NBA. We don't call that person an accountant and wonder why they don't pass the CPA exam. That person is a basketball player.
If we're talking about building some kind of minor league or something in NA to help build up players, we can have that conversation. But saying Koreans playing in WCS NA is a bad thing because the Koreans will win, that's just dumb.
They're not isolated. With a residency requirement, you would still get a significant amount of Koreans: viOlet, Polt, Shuttle and the other Clarity players, and most Koreans on American teams with an American team house, but this way, Koreans are getting the best out of both worlds. There is no reason for JD, Oz or aLive to practice on the NA ladder (and thus expose american players to high level play) - they'll be practicing with Koreans in Korea, and thus they will obviously dominate people without the same situation.
Actually, I agree with not having equal prizepools for NA/EU/KR, and I also think that not having a league for SEA/China/Australia is very bad for those scenes, but the way it is now, it does absolutely nothing for North/South American players, except those who received a very baseless invite into Premier.
Most foreigners aren't full professionals. MaNa? LucifroN? VortiX? They all studied or are currently studying while playing SC2 competitively, and at the very least they are as good as mid-tier Koreans who play full-time without any worries. Equality between the leagues is silly (obviously, Korea has 3294834983 full-time professionals with team houses and support staff), but if you think that in this way, the domestic situation will improve, you're even sillier.
That said, Koreans have a lot of tournaments they can uninhibitedly prove themselves in. WCS Korea GSTL Pro League MLG DreamHack IEM NASL
They run all year round. You have the games from the very best all the time. Why can't some local heroes be given some leeway to develop? Yes, perhaps a $100,000 tournament off the bat is not the best way to do it, but these competitors need something of the sort.
On April 21 2013 18:40 bluQ wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the MLG bracket in comparison to TLpedia?
MLG bracket is broken, along with the entire NA qualifier. Don't base anything on what MLG says or does, go to TL instead if you want correct information.
For EU, I think you have to realize that Tails, finale, and Daisy are really the worst "Koreans" you can find. They're not at all Code A level (maybe Tails) and I'd argue that they can be easily beaten by any of the EU invitees. It's normal that "local talent" can beat those guys. However for NA, it's kinda unlucky for you guys that the Koreans were much more numerous, and also much stronger. Like, aLive, JYP and Oz are Proleague level and Alicia+Crank are GSTL A-teamers, of course some random guy won't beat one of these. The mistery remains Jaedong's loss... that's a storyline I guess. :D
tl;dr; NA qualifier foreigner results are not to be compared with EU foreigner results, imo.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Larkin wrote: Bear in mind this is the first try at this system, hopefully Blizzard will respond to the feedback about, well, no Americans in the WCS North America, and introduce better region locking for next WCS. I mean, I get that competition is super high in Korea, but if they want WCS to be the most prestigious tournament they can't let this shit happen.
The problem is that Blizzard knew this was going to happen, and it seems like they designed/intended for it to turn out this way. Weren't some Koreans already invited/seeded into WCS America Premier league (bypassing these quals)?
On another point, I read somewhere that 9th to 40th place from these qualifiers will get invited into a second tournament where they will compete for 8(?) more spots in the Premier league. Can anyone confirm?
Also: Demuslim will have to win a couple of matches in the lower bracket AND then teamkill Revival in order qualify for WCS America Premier league. Yup, Demuslim, the guy who's now been living in the USA for the past 1-2 years and is #1 in our NA ladder and who should have been invited straight into the WCS Americas Premier league, imo (and in most ppl's opinions).
On April 21 2013 18:45 ZenithM wrote: For EU, I think you have to realize that Tails, finale, and Daisy are really the worst "Koreans" you can find. They're not at all Code A level (maybe Tails) and I'd argue that they can be easily beaten by any of the EU invitees. It's normal that "local talent" can beat those guys. However for NA, it's kinda unlucky for you guys that the Koreans were much more numerous, and also much stronger. Like, aLive, JYP and Oz are Proleague level and Alicia+Crank are GSTL A-teamers, of course some random guy won't beat one of these. The mistery remains Jaedong's loss... that's a storyline I guess. :D
tl;dr; NA qualifier foreigner results are not to be compared with EU foreigner results, imo.
Really, Finale and Tails should have been able to beat all / most of the EU players (in my mind). So, I've been rationalizing why they lost in my head to the following: 1) A 1AM-8AM tournament time for them, which means there's a good chance they'd have to play while not being able to concentrate properly and having real sleep deprivation issues; and 2) Cross-server ping. KR -> EU is supposed to be even worse than KR -> NA.
I like it, i rather watch good games, than watch 2 bad NA players, i did not watch anything alse but GSL, and proleuage, now i can watch hole WCS, because there will be good players all around the globe,
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
Also, NonY and iNcontrol only have to face 1 Korean each (Ax.Miya and Apocalypse, respectively) on their path to qualifying for WCS America Premier League. Wow, it could really happen! (EDIT: Oops, looks like 2 Korean each. I missed HwangSin and Heart, respectively).
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP. finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push. Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1s
Day3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLS Shuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings. finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.
As you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble.
Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot.
Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP. finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push. Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1s
Day3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLS Shuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings. finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.
As you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble.
Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot.
In addition, Shuttle playing from NA to EU has delay that is barely hindering you.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW says hi.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
People will watch it though, the EU qualifiers proved that, games without any Koreans got just as many viewers as games with. You can say that's because EU is better than NA, but practically everyone was a no-name.
Most people watch for storylines, and the underdogs (See Mystery yesterday) not for the best games.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
People will watch it though, the EU qualifiers proved that, games without any Koreans got just as many viewers as games with. You can say that's because EU is better than NA, but practically everyone was a no-name. Most people watch for storylines, and the underdogs (See Mystery yesterday) not for the best games.
Pandatank! haha. The EU qualifiers were great fun.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
If foreigners get crushed by koreans with a 400 ping disadvantage, can you even imagine how absolutely onesided the games will be when they face off in a lan environment? I rather have the best players duke it out from the beginning.
Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP. finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push. Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1s
Day3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLS Shuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings. finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.
As you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble.
Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot.
Agreed. The koreans that participated were simply not very good. They werent good in code a/b and they werent good in wcs eu. No big surprise
On April 21 2013 18:40 bluQ wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the MLG bracket in comparison to TLpedia?
MLG bracket is broken, along with the entire NA qualifier. Don't base anything on what MLG says or does, go to TL instead if you want correct information.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
So what you want is alienate the scene and screw the Koreans, do I get that right? If you ban competition, it will not just destroy the bounds between Korea and the west (and believe me, we do need the Koreans) it will also destroy local competition. Why would any NA player try to get better or very high level, when he can be mediocre to good and still get tons of money?
I said in every thread and I will say it again, invest money into teamhouses. That goes out to the big teams, build an infrastructure , let 16 people live there and let them pay to play all day, feed them and give them shelter. This is not a huge investment per month is not just insanely good public relation but also helps to grow the scene. To tournament organizers, stop throwing tons of money out in a weekend tournament, because it will attract the best of the best (Koreans) they will come and they will take it and leave.
Put up weekly tournaments or a month long league with 4 qualifiers and ~3000$ pricemoney , every month or every two month. Its affordable and especially doable, but if you continue to do major tournaments because you are greedy and want to make money instead of growing the scene, well ... don't complain the big guns are coming. ESL Go4Sc2 monthly finals etc are a good example to grow the scene. There are not really lots of Koreans playing and it always filled with local talent.
(regardless of Hyuns killing spree). ESV Korean Weekly for the Koreans and their scene. IPL Fightclub .. could be done on a local basis etc. But it seems like a circle. An investor will not invest money if he has to build, but no one will build if there is no chance of getting money.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
Koreans are drawn to the west? ................................ The reason why they are coming to the west is because of this.
Nothing to do with drive. And because the competition in NA is much lower and the competition in KR is way higher. There was nothing outside of Korea for BW was because the foreigner just couldn't compete.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorporated, which is: not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
How awesome would it be, if the whole Axiom team manages to get a spot in the Code S of NA? Already three of five are in and two more are still in the race. TB must be an incredibly happy man... :D
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is :not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
You dont have to have permanent residency in korea to qualify. You need to be present for all matches in the studio. Its just that it makes no financial sense to fly in and fly out for every round but it would be possible theoretically.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
So what you want is alienate the scene and screw the Koreans, do I get that right? If you ban competition, it will not just destroy the bounds between Korea and the west (and believe me, we do need the Koreans) it will also destroy local competition. Why would any NA player try to get better or very high level, when he can be mediocre to good and still get tons of money?
I said in every thread and I will say it again, invest money into teamhouses. That goes out to the big teams, build an infrastructure , let 16 people live there and let them pay to play all day, feed them and give them shelter. This is not a huge investment per month is not just insanely good public relation but also helps to grow the scene. To tournament organizers, stop throwing tons of money out in a weekend tournament, because it will attract the best of the best (Koreans) they will come and they will take it and leave.
Put up weekly tournaments or a month long league with 4 qualifiers and ~3000$ pricemoney , every month or every two month. Its affordable and especially doable, but if you continue to do major tournaments because you are greedy and want to make money instead of growing the scene, well ... don't complain the big guns are coming. ESL Go4Sc2 monthly finals etc are a good example to grow the scene. There are not really lots of Koreans playing and it always filled with local talent.
(regardless of Hyuns killing spree). ESV Korean Weekly for the Koreans and their scene. IPL Fightclub .. could be done on a local basis etc. But it seems like a circle. An investor will not invest money if he has to build, but no one will build if there is no chance of getting money.
Stop blaming Koreans for that.
A regional tournament should have regional players playing in it, with less money than a world cup would provide of course. That's the way it works. You don't ban Koreans or anyone else from participating region free tournaments. Real Madrid cannot play in the Austrian football league, they play within their country they are located at.
There is nothing to talk about here really. I know you've been very vocal about this situation in this thread and probably many others. But a regional tournament is just what it says it is. Worldwide competition does not die, because not anyone can play in every regional tournament. It doesn't matter how often you repeat yourself, I'm sorry.
But I think there is a clear difference between the EU and the NA scene, simply because the EU just has way more stuff. What's there in the NA? Almost nothing.
No one blames Koreans, the organizers are to blame, because they apparently see things short sighted and rather have a few thousand viewers more, than provide platforms for players to not have them waste their time.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is: not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
The problem is that wouldn't be possible on such a short notice. How many players do you think would move to where the WCS is being held? And where should the WCS be held? There is no permanent studio on NA which is able to handle it, as far as I know.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is :not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
You dont have to have permanent residency in korea to qualify. You need to be present for all matches in the studio. Its just that it makes no financial sense to fly in and fly out for every round but it would be possible theoretically.
And where does the original poster mention anything about being a permanent resident? The issue the poster is highlighting is that Koreans can now from the comforts of their own home qualify for a NA tournament and yet GSL didn't allow this for NA players.
Seriously people should stop whining about the koreans and instead whine on the NA teams and players. You keep watching their streams and going on their websites? Good job giving them money without having to show results. It's up to the viewers and teams themselves to make their players actually practice to be the best, you know like people do in any other sport...
This is totally stupid. Why are koreans allowed to qualify in American and European WCS? This is like cheating cause they use the easier foreign qualifiers to participate, instead of doing it in their homeland. Whats the idea behind seperated qualify-areas when you can participate where you want?
Why is all the anger/discussion towards Kr/foreigners and so little discussion of the huge amount of arbitrary invites that don't stand up?
No issues with Polt/Violet or US resident players getting invites, if anything the US players list seems weirder. Also not kicking a pretty much confirmed map hacker out was poor
Wish axiom would have went for the korean ones, as their homebase is there. Hope I don't have to worry they will move. But so nice that Crank made it. But sad that no NA player made it so far.
On April 21 2013 20:00 Wombat_NI wrote: Why is all the anger/discussion towards Kr/foreigners and so little discussion of the huge amount of arbitrary invites that don't stand up?
No issues with Polt/Violet or US resident players getting invites, if anything the US players list seems weirder. Also not kicking a pretty much confirmed map hacker out was poor
Because they are still much much better than NASL season 1. :> (i.e. we're used to much worse)
Why are koreans even allowed to play on NA server WCS when they aren't from NA server? Kind of confusing...seems like they are just playing on NA server WCS to qualify easily.. >_<
I think the much more interesting discussion will be how many Koreans will start in NA Premiere division Season 2?
Let's not forget that some of the strongest Koreans (Teaja, MC, ...), will only participate in the Challenger qualifier and Challenger division in Season 1, so will all the Koreans that will not make it in the premiere qualifier.
So in Season 2 premiere division we will have the Top 8 of the premiere division season 1 (would not be the biggest surprise to be all koreans), as well as 24 players that qualifiy through the challenge division season 1 (could quite possibly have 20+ koreans).
So it would be possible that premiere divison Season 2 might have something like 25+ koreans, maybe even all koreans...
I wonder what the endgame is for these players when the entire WCS America is played offline. Will they all move to America or will they just drop out and stay in Korea?
On April 21 2013 20:21 Branman wrote: I wonder what the endgame is for these players when the entire WCS America is played offline. Will they all move to America or will they just drop out and stay in Korea?
Offline matchs like Premier league #2 group stage are just 4-5 days in MLG studios. So they just need to drop out to NYC to play offline matches in a week.
On April 21 2013 20:21 Branman wrote: I wonder what the endgame is for these players when the entire WCS America is played offline. Will they all move to America or will they just drop out and stay in Korea?
Nevermind i read you wrong.
Remmy he means when WCS NA is finally only offline. That may happen next year... or who knows when.
On April 21 2013 20:21 Branman wrote: I wonder what the endgame is for these players when the entire WCS America is played offline. Will they all move to America or will they just drop out and stay in Korea?
Probably move to America if there team is rich enough. Probably move back to Korea if they made it through the qualifiers so they dont turn into NA baddies.
On April 21 2013 20:21 Branman wrote: I wonder what the endgame is for these players when the entire WCS America is played offline. Will they all move to America or will they just drop out and stay in Korea?
Offline matchs like Premier league #2 group stage are just 4-5 days in MLG studios. So they just need to drop out to NYC to play offline matches in a week.
I was referring to a future WCS when group stage 1 is played offline. It's going to become very cost ineffective to fly players from Korea to America 3-4 times a season.
On April 21 2013 13:38 Gamegene wrote: cmon demuslim you gotta represent the United States for WCS!
You know he is English, right?.. I don't get why so many Americans have a problem with Koreans coming over and winning their tournaments/taking spots in their tournaments/teams but not Europeans.
On April 21 2013 20:28 Hunterai wrote: My question is how did WCS EU Qualifiers not have a single Korean winner? Is is because EU foreigners is that much better than NA foreigners?
Or is it because no KR play in EU qualifiers And if that is the case, then why no KR choose to play in EU?
On April 21 2013 20:28 Hunterai wrote: My question is how did WCS EU Qualifiers not have a single Korean winner? Is is because EU foreigners is that much better than NA foreigners?
Or is it because no KR play in EU qualifiers And if that is the case, then why no KR choose to play in EU?
Less koreans, i would also argue worst in general, and the most important thing. lag between EU-Korea is not even close to NA-Korea.
On April 21 2013 13:38 Gamegene wrote: cmon demuslim you gotta represent the United States for WCS!
You know he is English, right?.. I don't get why so many Americans have a problem with Koreans coming over and winning their tournaments/taking spots in their tournaments/teams but not Europeans.
Most Americans don't have an issue with NA residents taking those spots. I don't hear people bitching about Polt or Violet. The whole 'build a scene' argument has some validity, if the players in question actually live in that region and integrate into it properly.
On April 21 2013 20:28 Hunterai wrote: My question is how did WCS EU Qualifiers not have a single Korean winner? Is is because EU foreigners is that much better than NA foreigners?
Or is it because no KR play in EU qualifiers And if that is the case, then why no KR choose to play in EU?
1. KR to EU lag is much bigger than KR to NA. 2. EU has more strong players than NA. 3. Some of the KR players are on teams based in NA, so it will be easier for them to move there.
On April 21 2013 13:38 Gamegene wrote: cmon demuslim you gotta represent the United States for WCS!
You know he is English, right?.. I don't get why so many Americans have a problem with Koreans coming over and winning their tournaments/taking spots in their tournaments/teams but not Europeans.
Demuslim has lived in America for 1.5 years, played on NA ladder, and has applied for the necessary visas to emigrate to the U.S. That's the opposite of every Korean with the exception of Polt. No one would have a problem if the Koreans in question moved to NA and practiced on the NA ladder. Now we have a situation where no matter how hard youlay on your own ladder, you can't qualify to play in your own region.
If I am from NA, I would be really pissed about that :D Luckily on EU we can watch our players play it out, of course there are some exceptions, but still it's a mostly EU tournament. They should have made something that NA looks similar, but Blizz even invited so many Koreans to Premier Divison. This is so ridicoulus...
They shoul just make the restriction that you have to play in the region you live...
On April 21 2013 13:41 GrapeApe wrote: Wow, pretty lame. I'd have to agreed with catz before this and really agree with him after.
I do not. There are allready alot of NA peeps in the code s (do not forget). WHat i do feel sorry for ar the guys on NA-GM ladder. But then again, ladderpoints does not give anything or show anything. Next to that, NA has a 15 year old playing (xeno), that i really like to watch on stream. But how in the hell can he compete in code s when heromarine (15 i beleive) can not compete in code s EU? WHen is something childlabour in NA?
I still hope sage, demuslim macsed and qxc go threw tho..
On April 21 2013 20:34 govie wrote: [But how in the hell can he compete in code s when heromarine (15 i beleive) can not compete in code s EU? WHen is something childlabour in NA?
I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Because he has no results to back a seed up! (i actually agree with this....amagad)
If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
My opinion exactly. But even as it is, it is already a slap in the face of every GSL participant that these two tournaments are weighed the same. There are at least 30 GSL players who are all better than the third best player in WCS NA (only HerO and Polt can be considered Code S level) and yet the price pool is the same. It is like giving the same money and reputation to the NBA and the German basketball League.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Uh this was a pretty offensive thing to say, both for the Special Olympics and to NA pros.
And anyways, prizes are commensurate with the fans, not the skill of the players. If Korea WCS has 5x as many viewers as NA WCS, then yes, the winner of Korea WCS should get 5x the money.
I will say that WCS is trying to walk the fine line between cultivating a foreign audience and providing the highest quality of games. Some fans are resisting this urge to cheer for any Korean, but I think if NA fans can get behind rooting for players like Polt or Nestea as their representative, this can work to make the regions more competitive. Empirically, the regions are NOT competitive if we take a hard line on residency. Korea will win, like they won WCS last year and win WCG every year. I think it would help if these players made a stronger effort to say they want to be the NA representative and not just for money or because the competition is easier.
This isn't unprecedented in sports. Lionel Messi is the face of both Argentine soccer and FC Barcelona. Pau Gasol is the go-to guy for Spanish basketball and the Los Angeles Lakers. Maria Sharapova represented Russia in the Olympics but has lived in the United States for 3/4 of her life (in fairness, many US tennis fans are NOT happy with Sharapova).
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
Or better even. Should the NBA devote most of there resources to the western conference just because they win more championships?
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
That depends on their goals. I believe NBA doesn't in any way have the same goals as Blizzard. I'm guessing the incentive with the WCS was to push SC2 back into relevance in esports. That requires NA/EU, which requires familiar faces, storylines etc etc. You don't get those by just having korean#213 swooping in, killing everything and taking the price pool.
As an example, personally I thought(apart from the abyssmal production) the early MLGs were byfar more fun that 2012 ones, with my favourite probably when Jinro won.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
Bad comparison. Blizzard is more like FIBA, and the NBA would be more like Kespa. FIBA does a good job of promoting international basketball, and the NBA actually goes out of its way to promote the game to other markets. I think that the international community would be amazed if Kespa did half of what the NBA does to promote the game internationally.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
My opinion exactly. But even as it is, it is already a slap in the face of every GSL participant that these two tournaments are weighed the same. There are at least 30 GSL players who are all better than the third best player in WCS NA (only HerO and Polt can be considered Code S level) and yet the price pool is the same. It is like giving the same money and reputation to the NBA and the German basketball League.
I disagree, while the code A and code S format is brutal, plenty of these guys have what it takes to stand with the best. We haven't seen it as much in Hots, but there are those who were able to have solid results in wol.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Uh this was a pretty offensive thing to say, both for the Special Olympics and to NA pros.
And anyways, prizes are commensurate with the fans, not the skill of the players. If Korea WCS has 5x as many viewers as NA WCS, then yes, the winner of Korea WCS should get 5x the money.
I will say that WCS is trying to walk the fine line between cultivating a foreign audience and providing the highest quality of games. Some fans are resisting this urge to cheer for any Korean, but I think if NA fans can get behind rooting for players like Polt or Nestea as their representative, this can work to make the regions more competitive. Empirically, the regions are NOT competitive if we take a hard line on residency. Korea will win, like they won WCS last year and win WCG every year. I think it would help if these players made a stronger effort to say they want to be the NA representative and not just for money or because the competition is easier.
This isn't unprecedented in sports. Lionel Messi is the face of both Argentine soccer and FC Barcelona. Pau Gasol is the go-to guy for Spanish basketball and the Los Angeles Lakers. Maria Sharapova represented Russia in the Olympics but has lived in the United States for 3/4 of her life (in fairness, many US tennis fans are NOT happy with Sharapova).
I feels like majority of foreign eSports fans/players think that foreign scene deserves to be gifted a "bailout" for their lack of skill. All this stuff about difficulty of "breaking out" and lack of "motivation $" is ridiculous. It is much easier to get signed as a ""pro"" *cough* *cough* sc2 player than it is to get drafted or signed by an NFL or NBA team.
Football is the biggest sport in the US, however there is only one professional league that hires 1696 players. However, there is a huge following and development system set in place. From before middle school there are leagues for toddlers, one in almost every township. Most middle school programs have a team. All high schools have a team. Division 1-3 universities have a program. All these programs contain over 50 players and over 100 universities per division.
Many of my friends dedicated everything to the sport only to meet the dead end at high school or college.
The professional scene is over saturated, the prize pool is too spread out. The NA/EU scene is more like college football, where fans cheer for their local/educational experiences. Quality and skill isn't there, but it is in development. Kr scene is more like the NFL, where the weak are quickly exposed and purged out and hidden talents spring up. Making the prize pool the same across regions is outrageous and the cause of Korean migration.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
Bad comparison. Blizzard is more like FIBA, and the NBA would be more like Kespa. FIBA does a good job of promoting international basketball, and the NBA actually goes out of its way to promote the game to other markets. I think that the international community would be amazed if Kespa did half of what the NBA does to promote the game internationally.
except kespa would get almost no benefit from doing such a thing, other than maybe getting more stream subscribers at most. the nba does it and is worth it to them because of all the merchandising revenue.
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
Bad comparison. Blizzard is more like FIBA, and the NBA would be more like Kespa. FIBA does a good job of promoting international basketball, and the NBA actually goes out of its way to promote the game to other markets. I think that the international community would be amazed if Kespa did half of what the NBA does to promote the game internationally.
except kespa would get almost no benefit from doing such a thing, other than maybe getting more stream subscribers at most. the nba does it and is worth it to them because of all the merchandising revenue.
Agreed, which is why Blizzard is the one who has to work hard at promoting the international scene.
Yankees are overreacting... these are the qualifiers.. did u really think NA/AU/Chinese semi proplayers could compete against so many Proleague koreans... u must be kidding me. Yes some have a chance but that is basically it.
The koreans deserve these spots if they win the qualifiers. NA-peeps should practise harder and stream less (just like ESF players have to step up to keep on par with kespa). This is pro esports and not christmas, there are no presents in pro esports.
Edit : Oh, and if u still think its unfair that better players get a code s spot over up and cumming semipros then go and whine at EG-management, as most koreans are EG anyway .. nuffsaid!
On April 21 2013 21:14 Pedrombom wrote: If you want NA players only to play in their qualifiers, the prize pool would have to be massively reduced. Compared to the Korean qualifiers, NA's is like the special olympics. 100k prize pool to low tier players is a slap in the face to Koreans when they have to compete against high tier players. Îf this qualifier was NA only with low caliber players and the prize pool was something like 5-10k, there would be no problem.
Totally disagree, they should region lock it so that people contributing to each scene are in the pool. If Korean players, such as Code A or Code B feel their chances are better in NA, they should start contributing to the NA scene, and by that raising the competition and skill level of the whole of NA.
Just swooping into each scene and taking all the money just fucks up the scenes that are already behind. If you want NA and EU to compete in any realistic manner, at some point a rope has to be thrown and the scenes given chance to develop.
So should the NBA divide their money and fame evenly between Europe, USA and Asia? Should NBA players go to Korea and raise the Basketball competition level there so that the scene there can develop?
Bad comparison. Blizzard is more like FIBA, and the NBA would be more like Kespa. FIBA does a good job of promoting international basketball, and the NBA actually goes out of its way to promote the game to other markets. I think that the international community would be amazed if Kespa did half of what the NBA does to promote the game internationally.
also why would an american company wanting to run a sport in america sponsor that sport in a different country? If you want a league in america you put money in america
I do not understand this whining. Even if Blizzard would have invited more NA players for the NA Code S, they would've been 2-0'ed in every game in the seasonal finals anyways; so where is the point? If NA players want more spots, they will have to earn them.
On April 21 2013 23:00 SoulHarvester wrote: I do not understand this whining. Even if Blizzard would have invited more NA players for the NA Code S, they would've been 2-0'ed in every game in the seasonal finals anyways; so where is the point? If NA players want more spots, they will have to earn them.
The problem is that no NA pro is willing to put his life on the line to potentially win money and sustain themselves. They risk is too high. I can understand that and I personally think its not a smart choice to give up on life and try to be progamer, but I don't think its a smart choice in Korea either. The only difference is, in Korea people do it regardless of the risk. They put education on the line and work their asses of and rise or not rise to the top.
Some people seem to think every player Korea breeds is a superstar, but they don't realize how many fail and retire and are left with nothing. Ofcourse Korea has houses with amateur players that makes it easier and the risk smaller, but if no one is willing to build infrastracture in NA/EU, the scene will not grow.
The region locks are 100% unnecessary, this will likely be the only season where koreans can play online from korea, and after that its either bye-bye proleague/gstl or bye-bye WCS EZ
On April 21 2013 23:17 rename wrote: People still arguing about region locks... geez.
The region locks are 100% unnecessary, this will likely be the only season where koreans can play online from korea, and after that its either bye-bye proleague/gstl or bye-bye WCS EZ
Thanks for your insight. It does help the here and now
On April 21 2013 23:00 SoulHarvester wrote: I do not understand this whining. Even if Blizzard would have invited more NA players for the NA Code S, they would've been 2-0'ed in every game in the seasonal finals anyways; so where is the point? If NA players want more spots, they will have to earn them.
That's just being stupid... demuslim does not get 2-0d by every koreans lol... he would be way more interesting to watch than koreans or b list foreigners like hellokitty.
For my part, I'm not supporting korean only tournament on NA territory.
On April 21 2013 23:57 Xercen wrote: People whining about how koreans are taking money back to korea.
Meanwhile in NA, ROOTgaming holds a 24 fundraiser and nets 25,000 dollars.
A few more of them and ROOT is sorted.
There are plenty of fans that support the scene on NA and EU and they support the players.
If other teams hold fundraisers as well im sure they will be well supported.
Koreans don't get as much love. Koreans work hard and they get whined at for taking winnings they work so hard for back home.
It's a complete joke.
Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
If someone could provide a definition for "storyline" in Liquipedia, I would be grateful.
As I understand it, we use the word as such: when a random no-name foreigner nobody has ever heard of wins a game against a somewhat known player, it's a great storyline. When badass super-skilled players (incidentally: Koreans) win, we put on the unhappy face and blame the lack of storyline.
As for actual stories, we don't care about those. Gotta have the sick storyline man. Please provide me with great storyline examples so that I can have a better understanding of the concept ("storyline", that is).
On April 21 2013 23:57 Xercen wrote: People whining about how koreans are taking money back to korea.
Meanwhile in NA, ROOTgaming holds a 24 fundraiser and nets 25,000 dollars.
A few more of them and ROOT is sorted.
There are plenty of fans that support the scene on NA and EU and they support the players.
If other teams hold fundraisers as well im sure they will be well supported.
Koreans don't get as much love. Koreans work hard and they get whined at for taking winnings they work so hard for back home.
It's a complete joke.
Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
On April 21 2013 23:59 TotalBiscuit wrote: Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
It's not a matter of taking money back or taking wins, it's a matter of actually watching foreigners in a foreigner tournament... if i wanna watch korean only tournaments I'll watch Code S. The market for that was already set, we still got to watch foreigners at other events. Right now it's looking pretty grim... we'll have 6 months with foreigners still competing, after that it will be all korean in NA, Korea and even EU should see the wave coming.
Something like 8 korean players out of the 24 players would be way more appropriate than this stupid shit they're feeding us. I'm willing to bet WCS NA stream numbers will go down once there's no foreigners left... that's not good for anyone.. not even korean players.
On April 21 2013 23:17 rename wrote: People still arguing about region locks... geez.
The region locks are 100% unnecessary, this will likely be the only season where koreans can play online from korea, and after that its either bye-bye proleague/gstl or bye-bye WCS EZ
Thanks for your insight. It does help the here and now
Talking about the current format when it's already decided and ongoing is pretty pointless. He talks about the future which is what we should be talking about. Or are you suggesting that we throw out all the Korean's and implement a region lock in the middle of the season? The discussion would be better if people focused on realistic changes for future seasons instead of just whining about how this is ruining the foreign scene (which is far from certain). Sure it's fine to analyze what's currently going on, but don't pretend it's actually helping anything.
On April 21 2013 23:59 TotalBiscuit wrote: Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
It's not a matter of taking money back or taking wins, it's a matter of actually watching foreigners in a foreigner tournament... if i wanna watch korean only tournaments I'll watch Code S. The market for that was already set, we still got to watch foreigners at other events. Right now it's looking pretty grim... we'll have 6 months with foreigners still competing, after that it will be all korean in NA, Korea and even EU should see the wave coming.
Something like 8 korean players out of the 24 players would be way more appropriate than this stupid shit they're feeding us. I'm willing to bet WCS NA stream numbers will go down once there's no foreigners left... that's not good for anyone.. not even korean players.
Yeah it's not like MLG's and Dreamhacks have had good viewer numbers in 2012 with Korean's taking most of the top spots. Oh wait...
On April 21 2013 23:57 Xercen wrote: People whining about how koreans are taking money back to korea.
Meanwhile in NA, ROOTgaming holds a 24 fundraiser and nets 25,000 dollars.
A few more of them and ROOT is sorted.
There are plenty of fans that support the scene on NA and EU and they support the players.
If other teams hold fundraisers as well im sure they will be well supported.
Koreans don't get as much love. Koreans work hard and they get whined at for taking winnings they work so hard for back home.
It's a complete joke.
Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
I think the problem is really that foreign players might say..."well I can't compete with the koreans whats the point of putting in the effort to play, or even become a pro. I'll just go to college." Sure root got money but you can't live on donations, then you become a parasite. If there are plenty of fans, why not ban koreans who don't live in the US from playing in this thing. I feel really sad to potentially see Koreans show up and take all those qualify spots. They still have MLG and dreamhacks to win. I am not anti korean, I love the GSL and proleague and GSTL. But I also want to see foreigner players win things.
P.S I hate using the word foreigner because no one is foreign to a video game unless they haven't played it, and koreans didn't make SC II. D.B did.
On April 21 2013 23:57 Xercen wrote: People whining about how koreans are taking money back to korea.
Meanwhile in NA, ROOTgaming holds a 24 fundraiser and nets 25,000 dollars.
A few more of them and ROOT is sorted.
There are plenty of fans that support the scene on NA and EU and they support the players.
If other teams hold fundraisers as well im sure they will be well supported.
Koreans don't get as much love. Koreans work hard and they get whined at for taking winnings they work so hard for back home.
It's a complete joke.
Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
I think the problem is really that foreign players might say..."well I can't compete with the koreans whats the point of putting in the effort to play, or even become a pro. I'll just go to college." Sure root got money but you can't live on donations, then you become a parasite. If there are plenty of fans, why not ban koreans who don't live in the US from playing in this thing. I feel really sad to potentially see Koreans show up and take all those qualify spots. They still have MLG and dreamhacks to win. I am not anti korean, I love the GSL and proleague and GSTL. But I also want to see foreigner players win things.
P.S I hate using the word foreigner because no one is foreign to a video game unless they haven't played it, and koreans didn't make SC II. D.B did.
Then foreigners have to step up their game.
I just want to see great Starcraft, if it's Korean vs Korean, so be it.
If all the whiners are right by saying a code s NA should be for NA-peeps.. then ill bet will see higher viewerratings at code B NA then at code s NA wont we? They wont, we all know that... its like the same if cba attracts more viewers then the NBA.. noway!
On April 21 2013 23:59 TotalBiscuit wrote: Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
It's not a matter of taking money back or taking wins, it's a matter of actually watching foreigners in a foreigner tournament... if i wanna watch korean only tournaments I'll watch Code S. The market for that was already set, we still got to watch foreigners at other events. Right now it's looking pretty grim... we'll have 6 months with foreigners still competing, after that it will be all korean in NA, Korea and even EU should see the wave coming.
Something like 8 korean players out of the 24 players would be way more appropriate than this stupid shit they're feeding us. I'm willing to bet WCS NA stream numbers will go down once there's no foreigners left... that's not good for anyone.. not even korean players.
Yeah it's not like MLG's and Dreamhacks have had good viewer numbers in 2012 with Korean's taking most of the top spots. Oh wait...
Last time I checked, foreigners were still competing in the tournament and taking games off. At one point NA will end up being 30 koreans to like 2 foreigners, different worlds.
On April 22 2013 00:14 govie wrote: If all the whiners are right by saying a code s NA should be for NA-peeps.. then ill bet will see higher viewerratings at code B NA then at code s NA wont we? They wont, we all know that... its like the same if cba attracts more viewers then the NBA.. noway!
lol... 8 koreans, 24 foreigners.. that's balance. and much more fun than 32 koreans or 32 foreigners in a NA tournament. Code S is already there if you want 32 koreans.
On April 21 2013 23:59 TotalBiscuit wrote: Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
It's not a matter of taking money back or taking wins, it's a matter of actually watching foreigners in a foreigner tournament... if i wanna watch korean only tournaments I'll watch Code S. The market for that was already set, we still got to watch foreigners at other events. Right now it's looking pretty grim... we'll have 6 months with foreigners still competing, after that it will be all korean in NA, Korea and even EU should see the wave coming.
Something like 8 korean players out of the 24 players would be way more appropriate than this stupid shit they're feeding us. I'm willing to bet WCS NA stream numbers will go down once there's no foreigners left... that's not good for anyone.. not even korean players.
Yeah it's not like MLG's and Dreamhacks have had good viewer numbers in 2012 with Korean's taking most of the top spots. Oh wait...
Last time I checked, foreigners were still competing in the tournament and taking games off. At one point NA will end up being 30 koreans to like 2 foreigners, different worlds.
By the time we get there, they would have to permanently reside in NA.
On April 21 2013 15:05 xiaomajia wrote: The Chinese player FruitBasket was a amateur, but got replaced by a Chinese progamer during the tournament. Looking forward to see how MLG will deal about this.
Can you provide more details? What exactly do you mean? Someone smurfed on his account?
At the beginning of the tournament, a Chinese amateur "FruitBasket" get into the bracket, played first round himself and 2:1 win,then he posted the result on Chinese forum(http://bbs.neotv.cn/thread-1114030-1-2.html). But after that, because many Chinese progamer have not get into the bracket(check this post:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=408776), "FruitBasket" gave his account to a Chinese progamer, let him have a chance to play in this tournament.
tl;dr: the FruitBasket who is playing in the tournament now is not the same person who checked in at the beginning of the tournament. MLG can make a comparison between the first round's replay and the latest replays, then they will know the answer.
It is true. All of the things in China is fake, fake ID , fake photo ID , fake certificate , even the life is fake. But your ID is fake as well. PLU noob reckon you are NeoTV.YuXiaoGang then trolling in NTV forum. It is so funny, I like how Chinese fight with each other.
But seriously, this guy's story is true. FruitBasket give his ID to IG.COMM in order to attend this match. IG team didn't get the chance to join this party at beginning because of the loser team leader IG.Edision.
IG team leader go to make complain with WCS NA BOSS, but it is so funny that the fault obviously comes from IG end.
On April 21 2013 23:59 TotalBiscuit wrote: Taking money back to Korea, geez. Yeah all those Koreans are getting paid sooooo much already. Most of them aren't even getting a salary whereas EG continues to brag that one of it's players is paid more a year than the entire Axiom budget.
It's not a matter of taking money back or taking wins, it's a matter of actually watching foreigners in a foreigner tournament... if i wanna watch korean only tournaments I'll watch Code S. The market for that was already set, we still got to watch foreigners at other events. Right now it's looking pretty grim... we'll have 6 months with foreigners still competing, after that it will be all korean in NA, Korea and even EU should see the wave coming.
Something like 8 korean players out of the 24 players would be way more appropriate than this stupid shit they're feeding us. I'm willing to bet WCS NA stream numbers will go down once there's no foreigners left... that's not good for anyone.. not even korean players.
Yeah it's not like MLG's and Dreamhacks have had good viewer numbers in 2012 with Korean's taking most of the top spots. Oh wait...
Last time I checked, foreigners were still competing in the tournament and taking games off. At one point NA will end up being 30 koreans to like 2 foreigners, different worlds.
By the time we get there, they would have to permanently reside in NA.
Exactly. If they go to a round of 32 that is all offline that is run like the GSL, there is no way they will be able to live in Korea. I for one support this because having Korean players live here and play will only raise the level of the current NA talent. There were several players who took games off of Koreans and they would only be better if they could practice on the Korean server.
-All these koreans who "are invading and taking our money" are playing for foreign teams. -Next season all of the premier league will probably be played offline. -There is no way in hell Kespa players will leave Korea. -Most esf players can't leave korea either. -There is a good amount of American players in the first season. -A lot of things will change next season(Blizz and foreign teams should have some talks and decide).
So let's just enjoy watching americans getting raped and have some good laughs :D
Things will eventually get better though so don't worry!
On April 22 2013 00:02 ZenithM wrote: If someone could provide a definition for "storyline" in Liquipedia, I would be grateful.
As I understand it, we use the word as such: when a random no-name foreigner nobody has ever heard of wins a game against a somewhat known player, it's a great storyline. When badass super-skilled players (incidentally: Koreans) win, we put on the unhappy face and blame the lack of storyline.
As for actual stories, we don't care about those. Gotta have the sick storyline man. Please provide me with great storyline examples so that I can have a better understanding of the concept ("storyline", that is).
Most people just don't care as much for Korean players, it has to be pretty obvious to anyone by now. The scene has to evolve outside Korea to survive, otherwise people will lose interest outside of the niche "I watch the game to see the best play possible"-scene, which is about the size of the BW scene before SC2 came along.
and Top. Foreigner favorites such as DeMusliM, iNcontroL, NonY, qxc, and KawaiiRice also remain in the bracket, fighting for the final spots to represent the Americas.[/QUOTE] Since when are Demuslim and incontrol "top" foreigner favorites?
On April 22 2013 00:29 Cricketer12 wrote: Since when are Demuslim and incontrol "top" foreigner favorites?
Demuslim is better than all those other guys on the list, so I think that makes him the top favorite there.
Incontrol, maybe not the best player but I think many people would be happy if he advanced. After all he is a polarizing but popular figure in the scene.
On April 22 2013 00:29 Cricketer12 wrote: Since when are Demuslim and incontrol "top" foreigner favorites?
Demuslim is better than all those other guys on the list, so I think that makes him the top favorite there.
Incontrol, maybe not the best player but I think many people would be happy if he advanced. After all he is a polarizing but popular figure in the scene.
Incontrol was doing really well until he got knocked out by Top, who went on to smash everyone but sleep deprived Crank. If there were no Korean players in the bracket, I think he had a really good chance of qualifying. I think it is very reasonable to think he will get into NA Code A.
On April 21 2013 23:00 SoulHarvester wrote: I do not understand this whining. Even if Blizzard would have invited more NA players for the NA Code S, they would've been 2-0'ed in every game in the seasonal finals anyways; so where is the point? If NA players want more spots, they will have to earn them.
That's just being stupid... demuslim does not get 2-0d by every koreans lol... he would be way more interesting to watch than koreans or b list foreigners like hellokitty.
Meanwhile, he got knocked into the lower bracket by the FIRST Korean he played against in the qualifier. :D
On April 21 2013 15:05 Emzeeshady wrote: I wouldn't watch if there were all NA players. Thank god for these Koreans qualifying.
No Zergs again though
What's the problem? You don't need the NA players in their tournament, because they are weak. We also don't need inferior races like zerg and toss in the tournament.
On April 21 2013 23:00 SoulHarvester wrote: I do not understand this whining. Even if Blizzard would have invited more NA players for the NA Code S, they would've been 2-0'ed in every game in the seasonal finals anyways; so where is the point? If NA players want more spots, they will have to earn them.
That's just being stupid... demuslim does not get 2-0d by every koreans lol... he would be way more interesting to watch than koreans or b list foreigners like hellokitty.
Meanwhile, he got knocked into the lower bracket by the FIRST Korean he played against in the qualifier. :D
He got knocked out 2-1 by OZ and those were close games. OZ went on to qualify, so he also beat out other Korean players too. Demuslim could easily have been the one to make it out of that match.
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
Lets not get too carried away guys, it does suck that the NA WCS is going to be the KR WCS #2, but at least we may get one or two real NA players in the challenger division so that may be worth watching.
Also I didn't see anything about idra, is he not playing in the NA WCS?
i absolutely dont get this mindset... I mean, in BW koreans were fighting vs koreans and non kor vs non kor. always... In sc2 we have this huge opportunity to mix both koreans and non koreans because the skill difference is actually not that high. Its good for non kor players because they will increase their skill in order to compete with kors. Its good for viewers because it is always fun to watch kor vs non kor and because non kor will get better and better. Its good for the game because mixing cultures, strategies, gamestyle is awesome.
I understand sometimes u can have favorites or so, but what prevails at the end of the day is the joy to witness players skills, awesome games, outstanding moves, etc... I dont understand why everybody is not just enjoying this ....
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
I am from EU and I do agree that the EU WCS is looking really good.
The NA WCS however is an utter and complete joke, which really hurts the scene overall as a big part (majority?) of the viewers come from NA.
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
I am from EU and I do agree that the EU WCS is looking really good.
The NA WCS however is an utter and complete joke, which really hurts the scene overall as a big part (majority?) of the viewers come from NA.
Well a lot of Europe is not English speaking so the viewer is spread out. But I would say that EU has about equal amount of viewers combined. I'm not sure though. Anyway I get the feeling that most viewers from NA like to watch EU players over KR?
On April 22 2013 01:10 JKM wrote: So many Koreans, but meh if the NA players can compete in spite of delay it's okay :-(. I am happy they didn't try in Europe!
On April 21 2013 15:37 VArsovskiSC wrote: What they should've done is make different number of spots qualify from different regions..
Like - say for example:
Korea - 13, EU - 6, NA - 5, SEA - 4, AUS - 2, SA - 2
That way you'd get a decent ratio of players from around the world
Something like that if y know what I mean, and THEN maybe allow the players to pick their region of interest (under the condition that they've been/lived more than say 6 months or a year on that soil) or decide where they have the highest chances for for winning a spot..
This is a smart idea to promote players to stay in their local region, and it's how a lot of global sports are organized, with more competitive regions getting more slots in the global tournament.
Given the current three regions, I'd make the final tournament 32 players rather than 16 and make the slots:
Korea: 15 America: 7 Europe: 8 Host Region: +2
Or, make it 24 players (top 8 get a first round bye) and distribute as:
Korea: 12 America: 5 Europe: 6 Host Region: +1
They could float the slots a little based on how players in each region are performing from year to year and redistribute the slots for the next season.
EDIT: Or, they could also just give a minimum number of slots per regions, like 6 for each of the three regions, +2 for the host country, and then add another 12 globally based on points, though that runs into thorny issues of how many points each event is worth in each region and how accessible points-generating events are for everyone. Seeding the championship solely on regional performance is easier to manage.
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
I am from EU and I do agree that the EU WCS is looking really good.
The NA WCS however is an utter and complete joke, which really hurts the scene overall as a big part (majority?) of the viewers come from NA.
Isn't there still about a 50/50 ratio of foreigners to Koreans in the main tournament? That is what Blizzard thinks we want to see.
For season 1 sure, but the next season is when the shit truly hits the fan. 16 players were seeded purely because of their placement in NA WCS 2012, not because they can compete against koreans.
Unless Blizzard changes the rules, season 2 will be more than half Koreans at the very least. Every season after that, their share will only grow.
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
I am from EU and I do agree that the EU WCS is looking really good.
The NA WCS however is an utter and complete joke, which really hurts the scene overall as a big part (majority?) of the viewers come from NA.
Its hard to compare the two.. but i do think EU base is wider and therefore stronger. In EU every game u get a descent opponent, ofcourse against topkoreans they will most likely loose, but in a eliminationbracket all bets are off.. 1 mistake and your out of the tournament.. Its hard to play 15 perfect games in 1 evening against farily skilled players, even for topkoreans..
I think there is underlying xenophobic racism here.
Chinese players are also foreigner players. Also, they don't have their own WCS qualifier so they are entitled to pick whatever one they want to qualify for, as all players of all nationalities should be entitled to. Yet some people are saying they shouldn't play in the WCS NA qualifiers.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
Blizzard already said anybody can play in any qualifier. This isn't an american qualifer. It's just one of 3 global qualifiers anybody can enter. The naming of the qualifier tbh was a bit shortsighted.
On April 22 2013 00:35 Lukeeze[zR] wrote: They took our job !
This!! says it all
Yeah because it's all xenophobia, not people trying to create a sustainable SC2 scene.
Because if you think people will forever watch KR vs KR, well, with the way things are evolving I can only hope you are right.
Speak for yourself, the player pool in EU is better than ever. If we disregard the Korean and had all the Americans in WCS NA try to qualify in WCS EU, I bet that no NA player would qualify.
I am from EU and I do agree that the EU WCS is looking really good.
The NA WCS however is an utter and complete joke, which really hurts the scene overall as a big part (majority?) of the viewers come from NA.
Isn't there still about a 50/50 ratio of foreigners to Koreans in the main tournament? That is what Blizzard thinks we want to see.
For season 1 sure, but the next season is when the shit truly hits the fan. 16 players were seeded purely because of their placement in NA WCS 2012, not because they can compete against koreans.
Unless Blizzard changes the rules, season 2 will be more than half Koreans at the very least. Every season after that, their share will only grow.
At some point there will be a reckoning for EG-TL and Axiom. Close down their korean teamhouses and move all players to NA or drop most players from WCS NA. Before that decision is made public there is no way to tell how many koreans there will be in US Premier League in the future.
The question is will the decision have to be made this year or next.
On April 22 2013 01:29 Xercen wrote: Blizzard already said anybody can play in any qualifier. This isn't an american qualifer. It's just one of 3 global qualifiers anybody can enter. The naming of the qualifier tbh was a bit shortsighted.
Hmm i actually like this idea... like there should be something like: WCS GSL Code S, WCS OSL, WCS MLG Premier League, and WCS ESL Premier league.
On April 22 2013 01:29 Xercen wrote: I think there is underlying xenophobic racism here.
Chinese players are also foreigner players. Also, they don't have their own WCS qualifier so they are entitled to pick whatever one they want to qualify for, as all players of all nationalities should be entitled to. Yet some people are saying they shouldn't play in the WCS NA qualifiers.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
Blizzard already said anybody can play in any qualifier. This isn't an american qualifer. It's just one of 3 global qualifiers anybody can enter. The naming of the qualifier tbh was a bit shortsighted.
Well the Chinese players showed up late and are now claiming that they were on time, which appears to be incorrect. They are posting some selectively cropped chats with the admins claiming they were "good to go" but MLG said that was for the "late cue" if players did not show up.
Demuslim lives in NA, got a work visa and is invested in the NA scene. No one has a problem with Polt or Violet. People want players who are going to get invested in the NA scene, rather than come for the final event to pick up the prize money and then jet back to Korea.
On April 22 2013 01:29 Xercen wrote: I think there is underlying xenophobic racism here.
Chinese players are also foreigner players. Also, they don't have their own WCS qualifier so they are entitled to pick whatever one they want to qualify for, as all players of all nationalities should be entitled to. Yet some people are saying they shouldn't play in the WCS NA qualifiers.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
Blizzard already said anybody can play in any qualifier. This isn't an american qualifer. It's just one of 3 global qualifiers anybody can enter. The naming of the qualifier tbh was a bit shortsighted.
Well the Chinese players showed up late and are now claiming that they were on time, which appears to be incorrect. They are posting some selectively cropped chats with the admins claiming they were "good to go" but MLG said that was for the "late cue" if players did not show up.
Demuslim lives in NA, got a work visa and is invested in the NA scene. No one has a problem with Polt or Violet. People want players who are going to get invested in the NA scene, rather than come for the final event to pick up the prize money and then jet back to Korea.
If the Chinese players showed up late then they should be rightly D/Q. But the fact remains that people are still singling them out whereas a player like demuslim who isn't american has no fingers pointed at him.
I assume you've never seen a gom tv code S or Code A match? or indeed a proleague match. Because if koreans win prize money at the WCS NA or indeed at mlg, they are taking that money to korea to help them survive (i.e buy food and essentials) and are able to participate in future tournaments for our entertainment. At mlg, those koreans player who won prize money, took that money to korea and it enabled them to buy food etc so they can partipate in code s and code a which was televised for free on gom tv for worldwide fans including north american fans!!!!
So when people make ignorant shortsighted comments and say koreans who win prize money take it back to korea and it doesn't do anything for the international scene is quite unbelievable.
There have been top NA/EU players who have watched the koreans play (in code s) and have been inspired by players like mvp, mma, polt, nestea, life, mc, parting, rain, flash, jaedong, bisu, stork etc. and thus have committed themselves to the life of a progamer. They have also been inspired by players such as stephano, idra, incontrol (guy is amazing), tlo, dimag, mana, naniwa, demuslim etc.
Please don't say such shortsighted comments that don't make any sense at all!
On April 22 2013 01:29 Xercen wrote: I think there is underlying xenophobic racism here.
Chinese players are also foreigner players. Also, they don't have their own WCS qualifier so they are entitled to pick whatever one they want to qualify for, as all players of all nationalities should be entitled to. Yet some people are saying they shouldn't play in the WCS NA qualifiers.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
Blizzard already said anybody can play in any qualifier. This isn't an american qualifer. It's just one of 3 global qualifiers anybody can enter. The naming of the qualifier tbh was a bit shortsighted.
It's always been this way. There have been so many occasions where Sen was the only foreigner left in a tournament, and we had people say things like "I don't want to watch anymore because there are no foreigners left". Chinese players are only treated as foreigners as a last resort.
What's funny is that no one in the history of SC2 ever complained about EU players coming to steal NA money, when Naniwa came and won an MLG for example before Koreans started showing up. The first MLG was won by Jinro, no one complained that it was an EU player taking NA money away. Catz didn't rant about EU players taking NA money hindering the growth of the local scene. No one complained about Stephano taking away the cash from IPL3, or 2 Lone Star Clashes.
People didn't complain because those tourneys weren't directly tied to a global tourney seeded by region. This one is, and Blizzard has branded the regions geographically, so the expectation is to think of them geographically. I love watching Korean players, but I totally understand what the fuss is about.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
It's really hard being a fan of the North American scene? More like it's really hard to be a fan of the North American scene. The play is just so terrible. You want your story line? Too bad. Fact of the matter is is that they're trash compared to the rest of the professional scene and if you really want to support them, you'll have to take their two wins in the lower bracket of an MLG qualifier to be the highlight of your e-sports watching career.
What people seem to forget is that all those players are on "foreign" teams meaning USA based. They run off sponsor money and those teams may say "play where you want" but they just love the fact that they can show their players in USA. This is their priority they use players to display their sponsors so they value USA tournaments way way higher. For same reason there are no Kespa players there, they have Korean sponsors and they will not get any money to travel to another country which is not in the interest of their sponsors. The whole region locking, etc is totally different subject. From business point of view EG, Axiom Korean players are more "valuable" playing in USA.
As a pure spectator of the sport - I've never played the game in a multi-player setting, and only played maybe a dozen games over the years between SC1 and SC2 - I am interested in good entertaining games with quality casting - which for me means a balance mix of educational information, humour/banter/teasing and background information about the player/teams and the scene in general.
With that in mind, the whole 'nationalist' approach seems 'foreign' to me (pun intended). In every sport the most prestigious tournament are 'Open'. They aim to attract the very best player of the entire world, regardless of nationality, creed or other irrelevant criteria.
The fact that WCS America Qualifiers do not produce any North-American qualified players is more a reflection of the current skill level in that region. There are too few world-class level player in that region... once you removed from the player pool the top dozen that were invited, the field left is apparently to weak to compete at that level.
Creating 'quota' would do nothing to improve the skill-level of that region, not that it is in itself desirable. After all shouldn't the goal is to identify and give a viable platform to the 'best' players... not the best German player or the best Jamaican players... but the very best player for a world-class competition.
Actually by creating these 'Region', I believe that Blizzard had in mind the viewers. by insuring that there are attractive high level tournament in each region -- that attract a significant group of top-level player -- there is a chance to develop a viewer base in each region, which in turn will create an increase player base, which statistically will increase the chance of the emergence of 'local' world-class players.
As a viewer, I am thrilled with the prospect of 3 high level, comprehensible, spread-out over time world-class tournaments, that I can follow entirely without having to do a SC2 non-stop week-end marathon once in a while.
On April 22 2013 02:30 shmget wrote: As a pure spectator of the sport - I've never played the game in a multi-player setting, and only played maybe a dozen games over the years between SC1 and SC2 - I am interested in good entertaining games with quality casting - which for me means a balance mix of educational information, humour/banter/teasing and background information about the player/teams and the scene in general.
With that in mind, the whole 'nationalist' approach seems 'foreign' to me (pun intended). In every sport the most prestigious tournament are 'Open'. They aim to attract the very best player of the entire world, regardless of nationality, creed or other irrelevant criteria.
The fact that WCS America Qualifiers do not produce any North-American qualified players is more a reflection of the current skill level in that region. There are too few world-class level player in that region... once you removed from the player pool the top dozen that were invited, the field left is apparently to weak to compete at that level.
Creating 'quota' would do nothing to improve the skill-level of that region, not that it is in itself desirable. After all shouldn't the goal is to identify and give a viable platform to the 'best' players... not the best German player or the best Jamaican players... but the very best player for a world-class competition.
Actually by creating these 'Region', I believe that Blizzard had in mind the viewers. by insuring that there are attractive high level tournament in each region -- that attract a significant group of top-level player -- there is a chance to develop a viewer base in each region, which in turn will create an increase player base, which statistically will increase the chance of the emergence of 'local' world-class players.
As a viewer, I am thrilled with the prospect of 3 high level, comprehensible, spread-out over time world-class tournaments, that I can follow entirely without having to do a SC2 non-stop week-end marathon once in a while.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
The difference is that DeMuslim now lives in USA for like 1 year. And the koreans most likely dont even speak a word english nor did they ever live there.
If i name a qualifier-tournament "EU" or "NA" there should be no doubt that the players belong to this region. If not the whole region-seperation doesnt maker any sense.
Its no racism if i say: I dont want to see koreans at "our" qualifiers. They have their own, Its just lame to go to lower skilled regions to get slots with less effort. The hosts should have forbidden those cheating methods and give korea instead more slots to represent their higher skill-level. If i want to see korean.only tournaments i'd watch GSL...
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
The difference is that DeMuslim now lives in USA for like 1 year. And the koreans most likely dont even speak a word english nor did they ever live there.
If i name a qualifier-tournament "EU" or "NA" there should be no doubt that the players belong to this region. If not the whole region-seperation doesnt maker any sense.
Its no racism if i say: I dont want to see koreans at "our" qualifiers. They have their own, Its just lame to go to lower skilled regions to get slots with less effort. The hosts should have forbidden those cheating methods and give korea instead more slots to represent their higher skill-level. If i want to see korean.only tournaments i'd watch GSL...
It's not fair to say most Korean's competing the the NA and EU qualifiers don't know a word of English. Most of them can certainly make themselves understood in English even if they often prefer not to for whatever reason.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
What did he accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
That was probably sarcasm. Edit: Lol nevermind he didn't precise "SC2", so I guess that could have been serious.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
What did he accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
That was probably sarcasm.
No plz tell me... what did jeadong and MC accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
Didn't NA start this particular ball rolling by MLG subsidising Korean invites way back when? They did improve the tournaments no doubt, but they didn't extend the same treatment to the EU elite?
Anyway regardless, it's the invite list that annoys me personally, but many make sense I guess. The EGTL guys who aren't in Code S can't jet around to foreign tournies without damaging their improved Proleague efforts
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
The difference is that DeMuslim now lives in USA for like 1 year. And the koreans most likely dont even speak a word english nor did they ever live there.
If i name a qualifier-tournament "EU" or "NA" there should be no doubt that the players belong to this region. If not the whole region-seperation doesnt maker any sense.
Its no racism if i say: I dont want to see koreans at "our" qualifiers. They have their own, Its just lame to go to lower skilled regions to get slots with less effort. The hosts should have forbidden those cheating methods and give korea instead more slots to represent their higher skill-level. If i want to see korean.only tournaments i'd watch GSL...
Yes but look at moonGlade, is anybody pointing at him to say that he's stealing money away from NA. The Chinese players don't have their own qualifier, so they get to choose. So between NA and KR (since lag to EU is pretty bad), I think the choice is obvious. And yet the Chinese players are not viewed with the same level of priority or admiration as a moonGlade because they're from Asia which to most people you might as well be Korean.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
The difference is that DeMuslim now lives in USA for like 1 year. And the koreans most likely dont even speak a word english nor did they ever live there.
If i name a qualifier-tournament "EU" or "NA" there should be no doubt that the players belong to this region. If not the whole region-seperation doesnt maker any sense.
Its no racism if i say: I dont want to see koreans at "our" qualifiers. They have their own, Its just lame to go to lower skilled regions to get slots with less effort. The hosts should have forbidden those cheating methods and give korea instead more slots to represent their higher skill-level. If i want to see korean.only tournaments i'd watch GSL...
So what about Moonglade or Snute? They don't live in na at all yet no fingers are being pointed at them. Do you now see the bias? It doesn't make any sense does it!
Also, shuttle is a korean who lives in new york and plays for a american team, clarity gaming, yet people point fingers at him for winning a spot in the WCS EU when he also has been living in the us for months while playing for an american team. So by your logic, shuttle is as deserving of a spot as demuslim is.
As a pure spectator of the sport - I've never played the game in a multi-player setting, and only played maybe a dozen games over the years between SC1 and SC2 - I am interested in good entertaining games with quality casting - which for me means a balance mix of educational information, humour/banter/teasing and background information about the player/teams and the scene in general.
With that in mind, the whole 'nationalist' approach seems 'foreign' to me (pun intended). In every sport the most prestigious tournament are 'Open'. They aim to attract the very best player of the entire world, regardless of nationality, creed or other irrelevant criteria.
The fact that WCS America Qualifiers do not produce any North-American qualified players is more a reflection of the current skill level in that region. There are too few world-class level player in that region... once you removed from the player pool the top dozen that were invited, the field left is apparently to weak to compete at that level.
Creating 'quota' would do nothing to improve the skill-level of that region, not that it is in itself desirable. After all shouldn't the goal is to identify and give a viable platform to the 'best' players... not the best German player or the best Jamaican players... but the very best player for a world-class competition.
Actually by creating these 'Region', I believe that Blizzard had in mind the viewers. by insuring that there are attractive high level tournament in each region -- that attract a significant group of top-level player -- there is a chance to develop a viewer base in each region, which in turn will create an increase player base, which statistically will increase the chance of the emergence of 'local' world-class players.
As a viewer, I am thrilled with the prospect of 3 high level, comprehensible, spread-out over time world-class tournaments, that I can follow entirely without having to do a SC2 non-stop week-end marathon once in a while.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
What did he accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
That was probably sarcasm.
No plz tell me... what did jeadong and MC accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
JD has no big achievements yet, but MC has won more in terms of prize money than anyone else (about as much as MarineKing and Parting combined).
Also i think that NA players should really step up their game. I know there is not as many Koreans in WCS EU, but that does not change the fact that EU players in general is ahead of NA players. Thorzain was able to beat Polt in a Dreamhack finals before he joined EG, Naniwa has made it to ro8 in GSL twice in a row, and Stephano was at one point considered one of the best players in the world.
I know that people like CatZ tend to say that it is because there is no proper team houses in NA, but all of these players was playing at home. Even Taeja is playing at home and he seems to be doing fairly well compared to NA players.
On April 21 2013 21:07 revoN wrote: I wonder why JaeDong didn't get an invite when a player like NesTea did. But I guess the entire invite system is broken. I'd rather they all qualified the hard (or easy for most Koreans) way.
Yes especially considering the huge amount of achievements Jaedong has, unlike MC.
What did he accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
That was probably sarcasm.
No plz tell me... what did jeadong and MC accomplish in sc2, remind me plz?
JD has no big achievements yet, but MC has won more in terms of prize money than anyone else (about as much as MarineKing and Parting combined).
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
That's purely the english twitch stream. There is also the gom stream and the korean stream that we don't get to see numbers of.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
That's purely the english twitch stream. There is also the gom stream and the korean stream that we don't get to see numbers of.
Also GSL Code S is on in the morning for the EU, i dont know about NA. Most people are at work or school. You would have to add vod-numbers to your equation to get a really good and accurate numbers.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
That's purely the english twitch stream. There is also the gom stream and the korean stream that we don't get to see numbers of.
Also GSL Code S is on in the morning for the EU, i dont know about NA. Most people are at work or school. You would have to add vod-numbers to your equation to get a really good and accurate numbers.
In the US, GSL starts extremely early, before most people are awake.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
That's purely the english twitch stream. There is also the gom stream and the korean stream that we don't get to see numbers of.
Also GSL Code S is on in the morning for the EU, i dont know about NA. Most people are at work or school. You would have to add vod-numbers to your equation to get a really good and accurate numbers.
In the US, GSL starts extremely early, before most people are awake.
I get to watch the last 2 matches while I am making my coffee. I would love it if an event was on when I wasn't asleep or at work.
Honestly, im not sure why everyones upset. Theyre choosing to play in this WCS, instead of the korean one (GSL)
I dont see why its an issue. I get to see incredible games in all 3 regions. Regardless of country theyre from, color of their skin, or lifestyle. I get to see 3 REGIONS of better starcraft, and better games.
The burden isnt on Blizzard, or MLG, or anyone to "handicap" koreans for playing better. They arent GIFTED any more than any other race. They have a superior lifestyle, of which, some choose to go to korea and play -- but often times dont keep up with their strict practice routines and lifestyle.
So, youre going to give a free cookie to americans for being lazy? Sorry, Put in the time and effort, and youll improve. That simple.
Other races have shown they have players that can not only take games off koreans, but flat out beat them. Look at grubby in wc3.
Let the tournament be played, Rage when shit is bad (512 format, not letting pros in, no way to check for cheating) and enjoy the GREAT MATCHES WE WILL SEE.
On April 21 2013 15:07 JJH777 wrote: Expected and good news. I am not even slightly interested in watching WCS EU aside from the days MVP plays and even then watching him play with a huge amount of lag will be very sad.
WCS EU was one of the better tournaments I can recall, but hey people have different tastes
I didn't watch any of the WCS tournaments aside from Korea, Asia, and the finals. I know it got a lot of hype for it's production values and storyline but I don't really care about either of those things at least not for the players that were at that event. Even for GSL I almost always mute the stream and switch tabs in-between games because that is all I care about.
You realize that you are a minority viewer correct? WCS EU had numbers that were on par with WCS Finals, a tournament that had zero Koreans.
There is a very large audience that wants to watch foreigners play.
MLG was all Korean from the top 8 on and had more viewers than WCS EU. Let's see how WCS KR compares in viewers (at least for the numbers we get to see) to WCS EU.
Right now WCS KR (GSL Code S) have about 23-28k viewers everything i check. I believe WCS EU Premier qualifiers had the same amount of viewers if you counted all Streams. WCS NA Premier qualifiers had about same amount of viewers as Code S.
That's purely the english twitch stream. There is also the gom stream and the korean stream that we don't get to see numbers of.
Also GSL Code S is on in the morning for the EU, i dont know about NA. Most people are at work or school. You would have to add vod-numbers to your equation to get a really good and accurate numbers.
In the US, GSL starts extremely early, before most people are awake.
I get to watch the last 2 matches while I am making my coffee. I would love it if an event was on when I wasn't asleep or at work.
Well sadly that will never happen for korean events, because they are lucky enough to be on korean tv regularly, but i also would love to watch a GSL-finals on a Saturday or Friday evening.
What i don't understand is people like demuslim isn't getting any fingers pointing at him for playing WCS NA (he is English), yet any non white people/persons, are getting this xenophobic nonsense.
The difference is that DeMuslim now lives in USA for like 1 year. And the koreans most likely dont even speak a word english nor did they ever live there.
If i name a qualifier-tournament "EU" or "NA" there should be no doubt that the players belong to this region. If not the whole region-seperation doesnt maker any sense.
Its no racism if i say: I dont want to see koreans at "our" qualifiers. They have their own, Its just lame to go to lower skilled regions to get slots with less effort. The hosts should have forbidden those cheating methods and give korea instead more slots to represent their higher skill-level. If i want to see korean.only tournaments i'd watch GSL...
So youd rather have the GRAND FINALS (be it 32 players, idk how many it is, honestly) be say, 12 top tier koreans, 6 top tier white people (im sure some from EU/NA can compete) and 14 people that are completely outclassed by those? No. I dont want to see that. I dont want americans hands held. They need to play better.
On April 22 2013 04:40 FXOkaRmy wrote: Wooot have a qualifier for NA and only koreans make it. Good job WCS you're really boosting the NA scene!
QQ less. Practice more, get involved in a house, live the same life koreans live (or find an opportunity to go there) and youll improve. Whining wont make someone improve, ever.
Id rather see the top grand finals be the 32 best players in the world. Regardless of race.
The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
QQ less. Practice more, get involved in a house, live the same life koreans live (or find an opportunity to go there) and youll improve. Whining wont make someone improve, ever.
Id rather see the top grand finals be the 32 best players in the world. Regardless of race.
No one is going to drop out of college to have a chance at playing starcraft professionally, which is why most potential NA talent won't commit to the game.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Overall its just a f*in videogame. You dont want to commit or waste your life fully to that. Maybe koreans can, cause they got esprt as a popular and accepted thing there. But in our western region your just a nerd without money and not a sportstar
And i dont think you represent the majority with your opinion of seeing the best players play it out. SC2 would be as small as SC1 if that was the fact. Its also about personality, foreigners vs koreans, drama etc that make games interesting and popular. Starcraft in pureform without these things will never get out of a niche.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too? And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
It's really hard developing same enviroment. It won't happen in this game. In real sports changes happen over the course of many years. We need something much more drastic to bring foreigners up to speed. And most likely we need new foreigners to take up the fight, not the current elite. That however won't happen as there's barely any incentive to train in more diffucult conditions against better structured scene.
We need more separation [for instance, residency] and much more time. That's very hard to achieve as it isn't very good business. We need to face the fact, that rising new talent like in real sports isn't economic in e-sports, as it oft times takes more time than the life span of the game.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
There are tons of Koreans who never had any success although they trained their asses off 24/7 for years in teamhouses, do you see them crying about the fact that there are people better than them grabbing all the moneys ? I guess not and thats probably a cultural thing, if you are worse than someone else you dont deserve to win, its simple as that.
Edit: Only a really low amount of korean pros actualy get a sallary besides beeing able to stay at the teamhouse.
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Overall its just a f*in videogame. You dont want to commit or waste your life fully to that. Maybe koreans can, cause they got esprt as a popular and accepted thing there. But in our western region your just a nerd without money and not a sportstar
And i dont think you represent the majority with your opinion of seeing the best players play it out. SC2 would be as small as SC1 if that was the fact. Its also about personality, foreigners vs koreans, drama etc that make games interesting and popular. Starcraft in pureform without these things will never get out of a niche.
No. I disagree. Completely.
1) They have opportunities to make money here. Look at Voyboy, or theOddOne, examples. Twitch pays you 1$ for every 500 viewers you show a commercial to. They average 30-40k (when LCS isnt on) viewers. Play 3 commercials an hour, and you now have like what, 120$/hour?
Ontop of free living, traveling the world etc. AND tournament winnings.
2) You wouldnt waste your life fully to that. Some people go to the military for 4 years, and it doesnt help them after that. Others go to college, drop out, then go back a few years later when they mature. Its about walks of life. Youre not LOSING your life because you spend 4 years "going pro". You still can have a bit of a life outside of gaming. I can tell you for a fact, at IPL, some of the players had groupies. So, they are "sportsstarish" out here.
3) I dont think i represent the minority. Sc1 was small, due to technology, the community, culture. The western world wasnt into "esports" like it is now. The technology wasnt there to support it. The world wasnt revolved 100% around computers like it is now. Theres still drama. Will stephano defeat X korean? How will Scarlett do in GSTL? Is Huk coming back? Will Idra rage this game? The players have to step up and win to create drama. Not be handed 150k for being not nearly as good as those who sat out in korea.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too? And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time.
Riot threw enough money at everyone to put all the teams in centralized locations. WCS isn't like that yet. Even with infrastructure aside, Seoul is a big enough advantage that it's like cheating, in the words of Artosis.
I predicted this would happen. Koreans were always going to participate in the NA Regionals because it is easier than the Korean one, and the EU one is too laggy from Korea.
WCS needs to decide what the point of having Regional Qualifiers actually is. Are these Regional winners supposed to be people actually representing a Region of the globe or not? The last WCS was a success because it was like the World Cup of Starcraft 2. Obviously some Regions are weaker but all Regions were actually represented which brought more interest. It is something for WCS to think about.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
Arent koreans already winning everything they enter in league too? And even if Curse Gaming puts in 8-10 hours every day, if rest of the US teams slack off - Curse will also suffer since they will have to play against weaker opponents all the time.
Riot threw enough money at everyone to put all the teams in centralized locations. WCS isn't like that yet. Even with infrastructure aside, Seoul is a big enough advantage that it's like cheating, in the words of Artosis.
Then why did jinro fail *(sorry jinro, you had a good run) Or Naniwa? Major? Idra? Stephano? Sheth? Thorzain? The only one to consistantly do well, for a extended period, was Huk. I know theres more im missing some. But why is this? They are sent there, givent he same environment, stay there for extended periods -- but dont really take in the culture and lifestyle, and ultimately fail.
Why didnt they go to Europe? because europeans are better. Why arent we raging that koreans were in their tourney, or that they got INVITED as well?
Why dont we rage for the GSL slots taken by Not even Code A worthy americans get sent over there cuz of a MLG win, and get stomped? Taking away the potential for someone IN THEIR SCENE TO GROW WITHIN THEIR SCENE OMG
Its the same thing. Theres not even that many koreans in the bracket.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
There are tons of Koreans who never had any success although they trained their asses off 24/7 for years in teamhouses, do you see them crying about the fact that there are people better than them grabbing all the moneys ? I guess not and thats probably a cultural thing, if you are worse than someone else you dont deserve to win, its simple as that.
Edit: Only a really low amount of korean pros actualy get a sallary besides beeing able to stay at the teamhouse.
It is a cultural thing, but it isn't that Koreans just work harder than foreigners - they actually have incentive to. Look at Boxer, he's dating a movie star, he's revered in Korea, he appears on billboards. There's actually a reason to try to be the best at starcraft. I don't see IdrA or HuK appearing on TV or anything like that. It's the same way how in America lots of kids see Kobe Bryant or Lebron James on TV and think "someday that could be me" and work their asses off playing basketball to try and get into the nba, even though they aren't necessarily paid for it and most people don't actually make it.
Very few people in America look at IdrA, Catz, HuK, etc. and think "I want that to be me someday". In order to build a scene you need to give people real incentive to practice, and in this case that incentive has to be money because I don't see any top NA players becoming a household name anytime soon.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
The fact that Koreans can qualify through NA is stupid I feel. Just give Korea more WCS slots and let the actual North Americans play each other for fewer spots.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
You realize you don't just get into a team house, right? Like you don't just email a team and say "I want to be a Starcraft player, let me into your team house for free". You have to actually make an impact on the scene, like making code S (IdrA), winning tournaments (HuK), or all killing IM (qxc) to get into a team house where you actually get a salary/rent paid for.
It'd be nice if that wasn't a requirement though, you know, like if they had some NA tournament where they could determine who the best players in North America were? Maybe then those best players could get into a house and train the way you think they should.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
On April 22 2013 04:53 Mauldo wrote: The "step up your game" argument is atrocious. After so many years of having little to no infrastructure, despite the constant promise of such, NA is behind. Everyone admits it. But then Koreans come through and roll a qualifier for a region that they speak neither of the languages for (English OR Spanish), nor do they live or even visit the region for longer than it takes to roll through an MLG, and the argument is "Well, play better."
No. I'm sick of it. Why should NA players grind to play better when the infrastructure they were promised by no fewer than three different companies (MLG, IPL, NASL) is non-existent? There was never any reason to grind out to play better unless you were on an international team like TL or EG because the local NA tournaments were flooded with Koreans (despite the fact that we were promised every time that we would have our own tourney to "help grow the scene). So lower-level up and comers fell away, and with that a decent ladder.
And now we finally have a chance at a league all our own, to give everyone in NA a chance to fight back, and BAM. MLG shits on us. And their defense is "get better." How? By playing qualifiers against players we never see on the ladder? By playing against people who train in Korea, log onto their NA accounts for as long as it takes to play the qualifier, then go back to their Proleague match?
The argument that "Koreans flooding in for easy money will make NA better" is absurd. It's not like the Premier League players are forced to play NA ladder, or even live here, so how does it make NA pro-players better? By giving them the one-off chance to play the Koreans in a 512 man qualifier? NASL did more for that argument (Make regular, weekly games against Code S Koreans that NA players wouldn't normally get) than anything the now WCS Wherever You Want will ever do.
The worst part is, what about if they ever want the players to live in NA, ala LCS? The Koreans will just give up their spots, and we'll end up with players who never made it to Premier League getting scraps that they never qualified for, thereby further wrecking the legitimacy of the tournament. I can see it now, front page of Reddit. "Lol, half of WCS NA Premier League pulled from Challenger's because Koreans forfeit spots due to residency concerns."
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
On April 22 2013 06:46 rift wrote: I've talked to a lot of Korean players and I can confirm they get excellent health coverage.
But that has nothing to do with Starcraft or e-sport or Korean Houses. European players, Canadian players, well anyone but American Players would have a good health coverage by virtue of the societies they live in and not the largess or good will of their employers.
On April 22 2013 05:00 Malpractice.248 wrote: [quote]
Little to no infrastructure? Houses were bought, players were sent overseas. (Idra, Scarlett, Major, Huk, Jinro to name a few) Environments were given (Look at the EG house. Exactly like a korean one, just 10x the size) -- They went to work out, practice 4-6 hours a day, had fun with eachother etc.
They dont buy into the korean culture. Koreans practice harder, harder work ethic.
Theres also global play if they wanted to play against koreans. Theres even koreans LIVING here, they could practice against if they got in touch. Dont play the card that options arent there. There ARE options. Just no one takes full advantage of them (aside from a few, who takes games off/beat koreans, or flat out MOVE to korea)
I dont care about nationality. I care about putting the best players on the field. Thats it.
EDIT: So, I have an important question. MLG, IPL preached the same infrastructure thing for league, as well. How come league players can keep up, and beat, players from korea, EU etc? Whats different? Because they practice 8-10 Hours a day at curse. Much like koreans do. They have to travel for MLG and all the other tournaments, and when they face koreans, they do just fine.
League is huge in korea. Far bigger than SC. Why is there a disparity in SC, but not league?
Dont blame the system. Blame the players for not committing enough.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
How on earth are people supposed to commit 10-12 hours a day to this game if they can't make a living off of it. In Korea, SC2 is an accepted profession, and if you're good like Life, MC, or mvp you actually make a lot of money. No NA players are making enough off of tournaments or team salaries to truly spend all of their time on this game. HuK might be, but that's about it. For IdrA, ROOT players, qxc, etc to make money they have to waste time streaming and doing ads and keeping their names out there, otherwise they'd go broke. Not only that, they need to get an education because throwing their lives in the esports basket when they have almost no shot at getting tournament money ever in a job that isn't culturally accepted is a terrible idea.
To blame this on the players is ridiculous. Risking their livelihoods/education/future in order to maybe beat some Koreans in a NA QUALIFIER is absurd.
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
On April 22 2013 05:47 Malpractice.248 wrote: [quote]
How many people arent in college, living paycheck to paycheck, not really saving money, hoping to go back soon? Or just not going yet? Or graduated yet have no job? Or go into military for 4 years, getting nothing out of it.
They arent throwing away their lives by going "ima dedicate myself for a year, in a house, where they PAY MY WAY, and see if i have a shot" People take a year off ALL the time. This wouldnt risk anything long term. You can keep spitting out NA qualifier, and emphasizing NA, but its for the WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. They should have named regions Purple Blue and Pink for all i care. Its a server. And if someone wants to come to this server to play, gl hf.
Why arent you guys raging that chinese are trying to play, instead of them playing in KR? Instead, youre raging THEY DIDNT GET TO PLAY OMG SOME DIAMOND GOT THE SPOT.
Seriously? Use some common sense.
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory.
On April 22 2013 04:40 FXOkaRmy wrote: Wooot have a qualifier for NA and only koreans make it. Good job WCS you're really boosting the NA scene!
QQ less. Practice more, get involved in a house, live the same life koreans live (or find an opportunity to go there) and youll improve. Whining wont make someone improve, ever.
Id rather see the top grand finals be the 32 best players in the world. Regardless of race.
Isn't that what the WCS KR is for though? If the point of WCS is to grow the scene, then grow the scene. If the point of WCS is to show the best competition, have a single, global league. It doesn't make sense to separate into 3 tournaments with WCS EU, WCS KR, and WCS KR#2. Nothing is ever going to grow. I love skilled players, but in the interest of the best players in the world, I'm not happy about some of them (MVP, others) leaving GSL to get easy money.
It sucks, either way. The qualifiers would have been more interesting if 13 koreans had been seeded already, and we had NA's fighting for fewer spots. As is, everything happened as expected anyways.
As already stated a thousand times...community wants the best players...so we get we best players, If anybody is interested in a US only tourney...fine...just organise it. From my point of view there are enough tournaments.
Although i am a bit dissapointed because of invitionals for WCS. Seeing players like Idra,Stephano or Forgg fight their ways through online qualifier. Wow...i would pay a lot for that!!!
You've got to be kidding if you think people living paycheck to paycheck or just graduated and have no job can afford to take a year off to play Starcraft 2.
You have to be pretty privileged, or not seen much of the world if you think just anyone out there can take a year off to play starcraft.
Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory.
Are you joking? Every EG foreigner earns much more salary, prize money and glory compared to any korean with similar skill level.
PS, im not saying that they dont deserve it - its a good thing they can actually make somewhat of a living without having to be the very best. I just havent seen anything to back up the "everybody from korea can devote 100% on the game EZ " claim.
On April 22 2013 14:40 cutler wrote: As already stated a thousand times...community wants the best players...so we get we best players, If anybody is interested in a US only tourney...fine...just organise it. From my point of view there are enough tournaments.
Although i am a bit dissapointed because of invitionals for WCS. Seeing players like Idra,Stephano or Forgg fight their ways through online qualifier. Wow...i would pay a lot for that!!!
If you want to watch the best Koreans play each other watch the GSL, GSTL, proleague or any other Korean tournament. If you want to watch Koreans playing against foreigners watch dreamhack, MLG, NASL, iron squid or any other big foreigner tournament.
The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament? We already had tournaments where we could watch these players face each other. The whole point of a regional tournament is to see players from your own region compete and have a big tournament where they all meet each other.
As for the whole if you want a US only tourney run it yourself, what a childish and selfish attitude. You can criticize or give ideas for how the tournament should be run without having to start one yourself.
Edit: If fairness is the issue they should have split the prizes and seeds better. The Korean tournament should have more prize money and spots in the end of year tournament (at least to start with).
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament?
Cause your region now has players like Alicia TheStC Oz CranK Revival aLive Jaedong Apocalypse Heart JYP and many more
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament?
Cause your region now has players like Alicia TheStC Oz CranK Revival aLive Jaedong Apocalypse Heart JYP and many more
First of all i'm from SEA so my region just gets left in the dirt. If you're referring to NA then no it doesn't. Those players will fly in for the finals and win all the prize money but they aren't actually playing in and training with NA players.
We already had tournaments to watch players like that face foreigners and if you read my post you would notice i mentioned that. NASL, MLG, dreamhack, iron squid etc so why even bother with a regional tournament? The format used last year wasn't perfect but it was far better than what we have now.
On April 22 2013 14:40 cutler wrote: As already stated a thousand times...community wants the best players...so we get we best players, If anybody is interested in a US only tourney...fine...just organise it. From my point of view there are enough tournaments.
Although i am a bit dissapointed because of invitionals for WCS. Seeing players like Idra,Stephano or Forgg fight their ways through online qualifier. Wow...i would pay a lot for that!!!
If you want to watch the best Koreans play each other watch the GSL, GSTL, proleague or any other Korean tournament. If you want to watch Koreans playing against foreigners watch dreamhack, MLG, NASL, iron squid or any other big foreigner tournament.
You forgot an important option: If you want to watch good Starcraft, watch good Starcraft that is on at the moment. And that´s the Korean GSL and PL, because they are the only ones who provide regular, well produced content.
The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament? We already had tournaments where we could watch these players face each other. The whole point of a regional tournament is to see players from your own region compete and have a big tournament where they all meet each other.
To provide local players with easier travelling? There has been a German league since forever, only German players, as local as you can get, but few people actually care.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: If you want to watch the best Koreans play each other watch the GSL, GSTL, proleague or any other Korean tournament. If you want to watch Koreans playing against foreigners watch dreamhack, MLG, NASL, iron squid or any other big foreigner tournament.
No, you couldnt watch foreigners vs koreans since there is no proper live league, only weekend events and casts from replay.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament? We already had tournaments where we could watch these players face each other. The whole point of a regional tournament is to see players from your own region compete and have a big tournament where they all meet each other.
Where did blizzard say that the aim of this new system is to gather up bunch of people from different countries and let them wave their flags around awkwardly.
The point is to have a proper league system in every region so every progamer would not have to fly to korea ( and risk not ever getting into code A ). The point is to provide high quality live starcraft in your timezone.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: As for the whole if you want a US only tourney run it yourself, what a childish and selfish attitude. You can criticize or give ideas for how the tournament should be run without having to start one yourself.
Edit: If fairness is the issue they should have split the prizes and seeds better. The Korean tournament should have more prize money and spots in the end of year tournament (at least to start with).
Now to create something like WCS in NA/EU would be quite impossible without blizzard - so its wiser to let the big money ( blizzard ) take care of the big things. And leave the region-exclusive stuff to smaller local organizations and WCG.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: If you want to watch the best Koreans play each other watch the GSL, GSTL, proleague or any other Korean tournament. If you want to watch Koreans playing against foreigners watch dreamhack, MLG, NASL, iron squid or any other big foreigner tournament.
No, you couldnt watch foreigners vs koreans since there is no proper live league, only weekend events and casts from replay.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: The whole point of having a regional tournament is to be able to watch the players from that region compete. If it was just going to be like this why even have a regional tournament? We already had tournaments where we could watch these players face each other. The whole point of a regional tournament is to see players from your own region compete and have a big tournament where they all meet each other.
Where did blizzard say that the aim of this new system is to gather up bunch of people from different countries and let them wave their flags around awkwardly.
The point is to have a proper league system in every region so every progamer would not have to fly to korea ( and risk not ever getting into code A ). The point is to provide high quality live starcraft in your timezone.
On April 22 2013 15:44 ElBlanco wrote: As for the whole if you want a US only tourney run it yourself, what a childish and selfish attitude. You can criticize or give ideas for how the tournament should be run without having to start one yourself.
Edit: If fairness is the issue they should have split the prizes and seeds better. The Korean tournament should have more prize money and spots in the end of year tournament (at least to start with).
Now to create something like WCS in NA/EU would be quite impossible without blizzard - so its wiser to let the big money ( blizzard ) take care of the big things. And leave the region-exclusive stuff to smaller local organizations and WCG.
Run it yourself isn't solid advice at all. You're responding to individual posters who are obviously in no position to do such a thing.
At this point it's too late for blizzard to actually region lock the tournament so i won't even bother wasting my breath. At the very least if the purpose of this WCS is just to have a GSL in every region (well as long as think Europe/Korea/NA = the world) then they should at least try and make them all live tournaments. If the qualifiers and code A/code S were actually in a studio i wouldn't be complaining at all.
That way you would effectively have to live in the region to compete instead of this unfairly only applying to one region. That would do far more for the current scene than this current layout (it may actually encourage people to start proper team houses outside of Korea).
On April 22 2013 22:44 Jezal wrote: inb4 WCS America, dominated by koreans
WCS KR2.
I really dislike how many Koreans are playing in NA, but don't forget that most NA players that can beat Koreans were already invited and are not playing in the qualifiers.
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
Your totally wrong Naruto!
I care about Soke against Stephano, DeMuslim against Vortix or Hasu against Naama, HuK against QxC etc.
i DONT care about Byun against Keen or Alive against Miya - and im NOT alone!
And YES, I WANT to see real NA Players compete in MLG Ro32.
If you where right, the soccer WM 2014 has to be hole Europe + Brazil, Argentina and 2 or 3 other SA Nations. But this is obviously NOT a WM. Most peolpe understand that. We LIKE to see New Zealand, Japan and African Nations against the big ones. Its the spirit of the hole thing. Not EVERY game, sure, but it belongs together.
Blaming NA-Players for not being able to keep up with Top-Koreans is stupid enough and you should know that. Same as if you let the Jamacian bobsled team compete with the swiss bobseld team and then laugh about Jamaica for loosing... its...ahhh...unintelligent...
Korea: Money enough to be 10 hours a day in front of the screen Best coaches Best training plans Best pratice partners Support by Analysts and other team-stuff
Some foreigners have to earn money to play their bills beside playin, no or unexpirienced coaches, no 10-years-approved-training plan, less an weaker training-partners, no support.... Who will win? Even big teams like EG have to search for KOREAN coaches to make their players better, and now think about clarity gaming, complexity, quantic! Do they have coach park? Why do their players loose against top-Koreans?
I've been reading a lot about this so far. I think that even if only Koreans are qualifying, making it a qualifier that anyone could qualify in was a good idea. This is some pretty stiff competition getting out of that bracket, and I'd rather see high quality games every step of the way, rather than first round knockouts when things get serious, because a bunch of NA players qualified solely on the merit that they weren't Korean.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
Your totally wrong Naruto!
I care about Soke against Stephano, DeMuslim against Vortix or Hasu against Naama, HuK against QxC etc.
i DONT care about Byun against Keen or Alive against Miya - and im NOT alone!
And YES, I WANT to see real NA Players compete in MLG Ro32.
If you where right, the soccer WM 2014 has to be hole Europe + Brazil, Argentina and 2 or 3 other SA Nations. But this is obviously NOT a WM. Most peolpe understand that. We LIKE to see New Zealand, Japan and African Nations against the big ones. Its the spirit of the hole thing. Not EVERY game, sure, but it belongs together.
Blaming NA-Players for not being able to keep up with Top-Koreans is stupid enough and you should know that. Same as if you let the Jamacian bobsled team compete with the swiss bobseld team and then laugh about Jamaica for loosing... its...ahhh...unintelligent...
Korea: Money enough to be 10 hours a day in front of the screen Best coaches Best training plans Best pratice partners Support by Analysts and other team-stuff
Some foreigners have to earn money to pay their bills beside playin, no or unexpirienced coaches, no 10-years-approved-training plan, less an weaker training-partners, no support.... Who will win? Even big teams like EG have to search for KOREAN coaches to make their players better, and now think about clarity gaming, complexity, quantic! Do they have coach park? Why do their players loose against top-Koreans?
A scene needs the chance to GROW, like the koreans scene had long time ago...
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
You mean MLG fucked up. Polt is a KR player with KR citizenship (I think). He's only in USA for school. He played in WCS Korea too last year I think. Yet he's seeded into WCS NA.
Ya I didn't know DeMuslim was living in USA until recently, but MLG should've known right? Even if they didn't, they should've fixed the seeding and given him a seed. He's the best foreigner on NA ladder after all.
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Fuck, get your infos about the players and stop bitching. There is no more or less story involved in NA players. Ignorance and stupiditiy really is rising. Don't want it and leave us alone, seriously.
On April 21 2013 14:00 Noobity wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:40 Bagration wrote:
On April 21 2013 13:36 Noobity wrote: Well, this looks like it's not getting watched by me.
So much for an outlet to watch North Americans play North Americans to win the North American qualifiers and go up against the rest of the world as representatives of where I live.
I really hoped this would end up differently, but I guess it was me just being delusional. I thought "hey, the EU qualifiers didn't have that many non-europeans, it wont be too bad!" There were more chinese players who got dicked out of a spot than there were korean players in the EU wcs.
I hope so much that someone from North America qualifies through the lower brackets, but at this point I don't think it would matter for me.
I tried jumping on the "only want to see the best games!" bandwagon but fuck, dudes, this shit is old. Give me a goddamned storyline I can get behind. Holy crap. I wanted to believe in the WCS model so bad. It's really hard being a fan of the North American SC2 scene when you have so little going for you.
Well I guess I can understand where you are coming from somewhat, but it's not like the Koreans are mindless robots with no personality. To the contrary, many of them have very unique and interesting personalities, and many of them do put on a good show (not just play, but also showmanship).
Anyways, here's to a great showing by Axiom, and hopefully Heart and Miya can rally in the LB tomorrow.
I don't think you're trying to paint me in a negative light, but to defend my point I agree, there are plenty of koreans with a ton of personality. In fact I'd argue that all of them are interesting in some way.
But we should be seeing players like QXC, Nony, and Fitzy representing North America rather than STC Miya and Crank. I don't think many would argue that the latter are currently... Better I guess, but I want to cheer on the hometown heroes. Yeah, so maybe the gameplay elitists wouldn't want to watch WCS NA at that point, but why should we be stuck watching our foreign hopes in streamed online team league cups where in order to stay competitive they have to recruit Korean players anyway?
I love Korean tournaments, but I would love to have a single North American tournament with MLG production levels that features only North American players even once a year. I don't really think that's too much to ask.
No we should not see fucking QXC, NonY or Fitze represent America or for that matter the region NA they chose in a high profile 250 000$ tournament. No one wants to see another Ro32 MLG 3-0 sweep by Koreans. If there are Americans worthy of getting that spot, they will get their spot and they will not lose horribly.
Your totally wrong Naruto!
I care about Soke against Stephano, DeMuslim against Vortix or Hasu against Naama, HuK against QxC etc.
i DONT care about Byun against Keen or Alive against Miya - and im NOT alone!
And YES, I WANT to see real NA Players compete in MLG Ro32.
If you where right, the soccer WM 2014 has to be hole Europe + Brazil, Argentina and 2 or 3 other SA Nations. But this is obviously NOT a WM. Most peolpe understand that. We LIKE to see New Zealand, Japan and African Nations against the big ones. Its the spirit of the hole thing. Not EVERY game, sure, but it belongs together.
Blaming NA-Players for not being able to keep up with Top-Koreans is stupid enough and you should know that. Same as if you let the Jamacian bobsled team compete with the swiss bobseld team and then laugh about Jamaica for loosing... its...ahhh...unintelligent...
Korea: Money enough to be 10 hours a day in front of the screen Best coaches Best training plans Best pratice partners Support by Analysts and other team-stuff
Some foreigners have to earn money to pay their bills beside playin, no or unexpirienced coaches, no 10-years-approved-training plan, less an weaker training-partners, no support.... Who will win? Even big teams like EG have to search for KOREAN coaches to make their players better, and now think about clarity gaming, complexity, quantic! Do they have coach park? Why do their players loose against top-Koreans?
A scene needs the chance to GROW, like the koreans scene had long time ago.
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
Ah thanks. Makes sense as the EU invites (Terran, anyways) are rather more stacked.
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
You mean MLG fucked up. Polt is a KR player with KR citizenship (I think). He's only in USA for school. He played in WCS Korea too last year I think. Yet he's seeded into WCS NA.
Ya I didn't know DeMuslim was living in USA until recently, but MLG should've known right? Even if they didn't, they should've fixed the seeding and given him a seed. He's the best foreigner on NA ladder after all.
Giving Polt a seed just like NA-citizen players is perfectly fine because Polt is a NA resident and plays on the NA ladder. The outrage should be about the idea that players who are foreign to your scene just show up and take money out of the scene back to theirs. No matter how hard you practice on the NA ladder, you won't be ready to play against the players that actually qualified because they practice on the Korean ladder.
EDIT: That said Demu should have also been considered a NA resident.
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
You mean MLG fucked up. Polt is a KR player with KR citizenship (I think). He's only in USA for school. He played in WCS Korea too last year I think. Yet he's seeded into WCS NA.
Ya I didn't know DeMuslim was living in USA until recently, but MLG should've known right? Even if they didn't, they should've fixed the seeding and given him a seed. He's the best foreigner on NA ladder after all.
Polt was one of the 8 invites from other regions. If you look at the list its 5 top Koreans, Sen, Moonglade and Snute. If Demuslim would have better results than any of them, he would have qualified, but he doesn't. Just being good on ladder only gets you so far.
On April 22 2013 22:59 Kasu wrote: Can anyone tell me how DeMusliM didn't get an invite to either EU or NA but Maker, Illusion, theognis, fenix all did?
Not to knock them but I can't see how they are more deserving of an invite.
Demuslim was considered an EU player since he played in WCS EU last year and is still a UK citizen AFAIK. Of the invited players 16 were from the Americas and 8 were from other regions.
You mean MLG fucked up. Polt is a KR player with KR citizenship (I think). He's only in USA for school. He played in WCS Korea too last year I think. Yet he's seeded into WCS NA.
Ya I didn't know DeMuslim was living in USA until recently, but MLG should've known right? Even if they didn't, they should've fixed the seeding and given him a seed. He's the best foreigner on NA ladder after all.
Polt was one of the 8 invites from other regions. If you look at the list its 5 top Koreans, Sen, Moonglade and Snute. If Demuslim would have better results than any of them, he would have qualified, but he doesn't. Just being good on ladder only gets you so far.
I think everyone agrees with how MLG picked from the lists. However, most people upset at this decision think that they lists were made incorrectly. If you live in NA, practice in NA, and play for an NA team, then you should be considered an NA player subject to NA invites. The 8 spots for "outside of NA" should be reserved for people who don't actually live in NA.
On April 22 2013 05:54 Malpractice.248 wrote: [quote] Do you think anyone living in a team house pays rent? Or do they have sponsors that pay for it?
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory.
Are you joking? Every EG foreigner earns much more salary, prize money and glory compared to any korean with similar skill level.
PS, im not saying that they dont deserve it - its a good thing they can actually make somewhat of a living without having to be the very best. I just havent seen anything to back up the "everybody from korea can devote 100% on the game EZ " claim.
You're arguing a straw man. No one wants to be a dude who maybe wins some matches in Code A. Aspiring pro gamers want to be the best. And at the highest level, Korean players make more money from salary, endorsements and prize purse. It's not close. Even at the highest end of foreigner salaries - probably Stephano and Huk and Idra before renegotiation - they aren't making any more than half of what Flash makes, or what Moon made. And none of the foreign players have close to the level of exposure and brand recognition that Flash, Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and the other legendary Korean players have. The rewards for being at the top of the Korean scene are much, much greater than anywhere else.
On April 23 2013 02:21 TheShimmy wrote: The remaining rounds begin tonight at 8 correct?
they already have been played and everyone know the result, but yes if you dont know yet...
So TheShimmy, you're wrong, and apparently everyone else is in the know but you, and you can watch tonight if somehow you haven't got access to the results ahead of time, which he's frankly amazed at. (I think that's why he put the elipissis at the end, complete shock that you don't know results ahead of public performances?)
It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz(MLG) could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament.
Which is why Koreans can do well. They can move into a teamhouse and train. Americans don't have that opportunity. It's a lot easier to commit a year or two if you have someone paying for your housing and meals (and health insurance).
so Koreanas can just randomly get into a Teamhouse OKOKKOKOKOKOKOKO got it :D
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory.
Are you joking? Every EG foreigner earns much more salary, prize money and glory compared to any korean with similar skill level.
PS, im not saying that they dont deserve it - its a good thing they can actually make somewhat of a living without having to be the very best. I just havent seen anything to back up the "everybody from korea can devote 100% on the game EZ " claim.
You're arguing a straw man. No one wants to be a dude who maybe wins some matches in Code A. Aspiring pro gamers want to be the best. And at the highest level, Korean players make more money from salary, endorsements and prize purse. It's not close. Even at the highest end of foreigner salaries - probably Stephano and Huk and Idra before renegotiation - they aren't making any more than half of what Flash makes, or what Moon made. And none of the foreign players have close to the level of exposure and brand recognition that Flash, Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and the other legendary Korean players have. The rewards for being at the top of the Korean scene are much, much greater than anywhere else.
You're right and wrong at the same time. The very top of the Koreans do have some very neat salaries and stuff, but they're arguing more of a general sense of Korea and they do earn considerably less, if anything at all, than people on foreign teams.
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament.
Sure but I don't think that Catz vs Illusion (as an example) would attract the kind of audience WCS is needing either. I think we all agree that it needs to be koreans vs "foreigners". Which is my point. You can't apply quotas to tourneys, if you allow the koreans to enter, you must know that they will be doing their best to win...
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament.
Korean v Korean doesn't provide the WORST ratings, just lower than Korean v Hyped Foreigner or Hyped Foreigner v Hyped Foreigner. No name foreigner v No name foreigner is bound to produce less viewers than almost any two koreans.
Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean or "foreigner". Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well, hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean of foreigner. Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well prity hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. I don't understand why people care for the country someone is born in an global computer game.
It's always sort of been there, but the region lock is causing people to draw lines in the sand. I agree with your last point, global play should mean less boundaries.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean or "foreigner". Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well, hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
I love that there are Koreans in WCS NA and am more likely to watch now, but calling the Korean/foreigner distinction racism is fucking stupid.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean or "foreigner". Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well, hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
I love that there are Koreans in WCS NA and am more likely to watch now, but calling the Korean/foreigner distinction racism is fucking stupid.
If you dont know what racism is look it up first. Or here a more simple way:
Go throw the post in all the "korean"-threads and just replace the words foreigner and korean, with black and white. Then read them again.
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz(MLG) could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
On point 1, it's a question of where the US players are located-- Internet infrastructure means a lot. The physical location of the US battle.net servers are in Southern California. They are connected to an internet backbone (cogent) and should have great access to the undersea cables to Asia. If Korean internet is good (and everyone says it's pretty good), then the backbones in Seoul will have pretty good latency to the undersea cables that connect to NA.
Conversely, a random American on Comcast or AT&T will have a much larger amount of hops to even reach the routers by the undersea cables. In network latency, the time spent traversing a physical distance has less to do with the distance and more to do with the number of routers it must bounce between (obvious exception for satellite signals). This is one of the big reasons EG is moving from Arizona to San Francisco. If they can get a good internet provider with good access to backbone, they could significantly decrease their ping to the KR bnet server.
You can do a traceroute to see what your latency to the KR server would be. Sitting in Atlanta on AT&T internet, I have about 224 ms ping to the KR bnet server. So a theoretical opponent would be able to take twice as many turns as I could (while SC2 is realtime, it only evaluates commands every .1 seconds). https://us.battle.net/support/en/article/performing-a-traceroute
Of course, all of this is speculative and would be dependent on the actual implementation of internet in their houses.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean or "foreigner". Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well, hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
If a top (or the best) foreign player cant speak english like the koreans, then he is in the same boat like the koreans. Its all about english language.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
To point out this point. This matters a LOT right now, and the goal of WCS is to make it not matter as much. Right now Koreans have a huge advantage because they were born in Korea. They have an infrastructure and gaming culture that is able to find talented players and develop them in structured environments with coaches.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
Opportunities are there. These players "overcame the odds" and got sponsored. Why cant anyone else?
Sorry, Im not a fan of handouts.
Scarlett got noticed because of her performance at IPL where she beat Bumblebee.Prime and then took a game of Oz in a really close series. The only reason she was able to participate in IPL was because she won a region locked IPL qualifier. She's a perfect example of why region lock is important and good for a developing scene. The only reason any of us know about Scarlett is because she won one of your so called "handouts".
Suppy similarly did well in region locked qualifiers in order to get into the NA WCS championships, and won an all foreigner qualifier (with the exception of Dragon, Nara, and Daisy who all play for European teams) to get into ASUS ROG Summer 2012. These results led to him getting picked up by EG. Again, he was able to get make it into the scene via region locked, mostly foreigner qualifiers.
Bly has been in the esports scene for years now. He made his name in WCIII and competed in WCG 2009 in China (I assume he made it by qualifying in a region-locked qualifier). He switched to SC2 after completing school and I due to his WCIII skills he was picked up by Acer. He's been around for years and competing on a high level for years, he didn't just come out of nowhere.
EDIT: My favorite thing is how you cite Scarlett and Suppy's wins and then if you actually look at it almost all their actual tournament wins come from the region-locked, foreigner only events you've been bashing.
This actually contradicts your previous arguement that its harder for foreigners to get into starcraft - since those two players actually received handouts which up&comer koreans dont have.
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
My main argument though is that having WCS NA region locked would be a good thing for the scene as it allows for new Scarlett's and Suppy's to be exposed, get into team houses, and then do well at events with top Koreans.
What bigger payoffs? Also what handouts - are you saying that up&coming koreans get some kind of benefit for playing with bunch of established korean pros in their "region locked" qualifiers - why are you against the same pros playing in NA/EU regions then?
The region lock part is moot. The LAN part will eventually force the region lock anyway. Requiring some sort of residency documents instead of just "be present at the lan events" just screws with people who are in process of moving from one reagion or another.
Higher salaries for the best of the best, more prize money - GSL has a larger purse than any other tournament - and significantly more glory.
Are you joking? Every EG foreigner earns much more salary, prize money and glory compared to any korean with similar skill level.
PS, im not saying that they dont deserve it - its a good thing they can actually make somewhat of a living without having to be the very best. I just havent seen anything to back up the "everybody from korea can devote 100% on the game EZ " claim.
You're arguing a straw man. No one wants to be a dude who maybe wins some matches in Code A. Aspiring pro gamers want to be the best. And at the highest level, Korean players make more money from salary, endorsements and prize purse. It's not close. Even at the highest end of foreigner salaries - probably Stephano and Huk and Idra before renegotiation - they aren't making any more than half of what Flash makes, or what Moon made. And none of the foreign players have close to the level of exposure and brand recognition that Flash, Boxer, Nada, Jaedong and the other legendary Korean players have. The rewards for being at the top of the Korean scene are much, much greater than anywhere else.
You're right and wrong at the same time. The very top of the Koreans do have some very neat salaries and stuff, but they're arguing more of a general sense of Korea and they do earn considerably less, if anything at all, than people on foreign teams.
I don't disagree with that. I'm responding specifically to challenges to this:
There are also Korea region-locked qualifiers for these events, they get the same handouts, with a much bigger payoff if they make it big in Korea.
For those that do become stars, the results can be incredible. For those that are just pretty good, yeah, people signed to western teams probably have more reward for their effort.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
To point out this point. This matters a LOT right now, and the goal of WCS is to make it not matter as much. Right now Koreans have a huge advantage because they were born in Korea. They have an infrastructure and gaming culture that is able to find talented players and develop them in structured environments with coaches.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
Concur. NA for North Americans, EU for European Union. Have two Korean WCS brackets if you need to. Whatever. I want to watch guys that speak my language play for something meaningful. And the rating bear out that everyone else agrees with me.
And yes, as discussed in this forum thread, the WCS has been poorly managed to this point. Dafuq.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves.
They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene. So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing".
One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high. Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers.
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament.
Sure but I don't think that Catz vs Illusion (as an example) would attract the kind of audience WCS is needing either. I think we all agree that it needs to be koreans vs "foreigners". Which is my point. You can't apply quotas to tourneys, if you allow the koreans to enter, you must know that they will be doing their best to win...
No we don't all agree with that. Just look at the WCS EU last year, people like watching players from their own region compete with each other. That's the unique and enjoyable flavour that a tournament like WCS can bring. Sure i life watching tournaments like MLG where you see the best players from all over the world compete. The WCS let me watch the best players from each region compete and i thoroughly enjoyed that.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves.
They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene. So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing".
One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high. Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers.
They made BW an esport, not SC2. SC2 is driven by the Western audience. Go check out the difference in attendance between Korean SC2 events and Western SC2 events.
Soccer is the opposite of the current WCS system. With soccer, we would only have South American and European teams playing for the championship.
On April 23 2013 05:44 Elitios wrote: It is kind of bad for the americas to be represented by koreans, but also maybe this will be a kick in the butt:
1.- if the koreans can get over lag issues to stomp NA players, that means that NA player can now train on KR server without lag being that big an issue. That will surely improve the level of top NA players. 2.-The koreans who belong to NA team should be encouraged to help their fellow NA players to improve (at least it seems to make sense), if it isn't the case, they belong to said team in name only, which is something to think about at least. 3.- you can't really blame the format, since no Korean also means that ratings will drop, so they had to have a system which allowed koreans to enter... The fact that it was so one sided, blizz could do nothing about. 4.- if there is such a skill gap, maybe it's better that it turns out that way since players that can't stand up to koreans have no place in the world champinship anyways. 5.- from what I saw, Na players didn't perform that badly, but they lack the decisiveness of koreans, so maybe this result will challenge them to crank it up in the next qualifier?
I just want to address point 3. It's pretty common knowledge that Korean v Korean provides the worst ratings, and until MLG, WCS Europe had the highest viewer count of any tournament.
Sure but I don't think that Catz vs Illusion (as an example) would attract the kind of audience WCS is needing either. I think we all agree that it needs to be koreans vs "foreigners". Which is my point. You can't apply quotas to tourneys, if you allow the koreans to enter, you must know that they will be doing their best to win...
No we don't all agree with that. Just look at the WCS EU last year, people like watching players from their own region compete with each other. That's the unique and enjoyable flavour that a tournament like WCS can bring. Sure i life watching tournaments like MLG where you see the best players from all over the world compete. The WCS let me watch the best players from each region compete and i thoroughly enjoyed that.
I think what people are forgetting to mention is that the game quality was pretty damn high at WCS EU as well. I mean we're not undiscerning in our tastes, there were a hell of a lot of good games to go alongside the players we know and love/hate as well/
If theres a season 2 next year... THEY WILL CHANGE THE RULES...
Honestly, they should follow Riot... LCS is the greatest Eports league. Koreans play with koreans, EU plays with EU, NA plays with NA. sucks for the other countires... but the NBA only happens in America and it's huge. Have 3 leagues. NA, Korea, EU.
If the koreans bitch about prize money, Too bad, get better. League of legends, China/Korea have the most talent but i don't see them crying over prize money from NA or EU. The NA and EU fans are the ones who drive the sales of the game. Blizzard just folllow suit.
I really dislike all the "We'll never catch up because they have an inherent advantage. Just keep them out of our money." sentiment. "They're stealing our money and it's destroying our scene!" If an individual player wins prize money, where does that money go to? If a Korean player wins money, does that money to go the "Korean scene?" If a NA player wins prize money, will he actually donate a substantial portion of it to build the NA scene? Will having a pool of generally much lower skill level players compete for the same amount of money that Korean and European WCS offer really drive people to practice more seriously?
Also, for the past two and a half years (excluding a few top players in KeSPA), decent western players have been getting much better salaries than Korean players of similar skills would receive. They also tend to have a lot more viewers on their streams and make pretty good income just from streaming. "But we've got mouths to feed here in America" really doesn't convince me. It seems to me that people want to continue their college education, receive high salary, make a good amount of income from streaming themselves occasionally having fun in custom games, AND earn substantial prize money while doing all that. Well, I suppose I would want that too for myself. It sounds great.
"Q: You are at a disadvantage not earning points from foreign tournaments. A: It's not something we can do anything about. All we can do is clear our minds, and do the best in our given situation. I don't think about it as a disadvantage, I just try do the best from where I am." -Flash
Americans need to stop whining about incentives. Greatness isn't something achieved with handouts, it's something fought for, tooth and nail.
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote: With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
I disagree, for at least three reasons.
First, numbers, Koreans currently have less than half (13/32) of the spots in premier (liquidpedia), and looking at the lower brackets for the premiere qualifier (remember 9th-40th place get invites--perhaps others will too, and I sorta doubt MLG/Blizz will invite more Koreans) means that Koreans will probably be in the minority for challenger league too. That is hardly "all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels".
Second, building on the former reason, this season is the worst that it will be in terms of Korean advantage, because as time goes on the AM and EU events will be moved from online to the studios, making participation from Korean team houses impractical. Korean long-distance participation should only decrease over time. Combine that with the fact that Koreans aren't even the majority now. The current season's system is the worst it will get, and it will improve over time, assuming you don't mind Koreans residing in AM to play in AM (which I think is fair).
Third on taking "the money from our scene without contributing anything themselves", glance at what teams those Koreans in AM premier are on. Aside from Nestea, they are from EG, Liquid, Complexity, Axiom, Root...see the pattern? These are foreign teams. Aren't Korean players on foreign teams contributing to our teams (and thus to our scene)? Do we want to force our teams to always leave their Korean players in Korea? How will that help the Korean players contribute to their foreign teammates in AM/EU (which, by the way, will include the up-and-comers mentioned, because our teams are looking to and actively picking up new foreign talent as they find it)?
Long term, I should hope we want our teams here in our regions, especially with any of their Korean players who want to come. But we won't get them here any faster by banning them all at the start of season 1. Hence this gradual transition from "Korean (and other countries'!) players can play from home online a bit more this first season." to the eventual "Time to move to the EU/AM equivalents of Seoul (i.e. whatever city the studio and team houses end up in on each continent) so you can play offline as much as you are required if you want to compete in the global league."
I'm not claiming this was the best system; there are good arguments for alternatives. But the system we've been given is neither Korean theft nor the makings of the total Korean takeover the quoted poster describes.
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote: With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
I disagree, for at least three reasons.
First, numbers, Koreans currently have less than half (13/32) of the spots in premier (liquidpedia), and looking at the lower brackets for the premiere qualifier (remember 9th-40th place get invites--perhaps others will too, and I sorta doubt MLG/Blizz will invite more Koreans) means that Koreans will probably be in the minority for challenger league too. That is hardly "all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels".
Second, building on the former reason, this season is the worst that it will be in terms of Korean advantage, because as time goes on the AM and EU events will be moved from online to the studios, making participation from Korean team houses impractical. Korean long-distance participation should only decrease over time. Combine that with the fact that Koreans aren't even the majority now. The current season's system is the worst it will get, and it will improve over time, assuming you don't mind Koreans residing in AM to play in AM (which I think is fair).
Third on taking "the money from our scene without contributing anything themselves", glance at what teams those Koreans in AM premier are on. Aside from Nestea, they are from EG, Liquid, Complexity, Axiom, Root...see the pattern? These are foreign teams. Aren't Korean players on foreign teams contributing to our teams (and thus to our scene)? Do we want to force our teams to always leave their Korean players in Korea? How will that help the Korean players contribute to their foreign teammates in AM/EU (which, by the way, will include the up-and-comers mentioned, because our teams are looking to and actively picking up new foreign talent as they find it)?
Long term, I should hope we want our teams here in our regions, especially with any of their Korean players who want to come. But we won't get them here any faster by banning them all at the start of season 1. Hence this gradual transition from "Korean (and other countries'!) players can play from home online a bit more this first season." to the eventual "Time to move to the EU/AM equivalents of Seoul (i.e. whatever city the studio and team houses end up in on each continent) so you can play offline as much as you are required if you want to compete in the global league."
I'm not claiming this was the best system; there are good arguments for alternatives. But the system we've been given is neither Korean theft nor the makings of the total Korean takeover the quoted poster describes.
you make some good points. I'm inclined to agree. I think main concerns seem to be that these Koreans will settle back into the Korean scene since most don't reside in NA however majority are on foreign teams so to deny them participation based on where they are from isn't right. Hopefully some will reside here eventually and in turn bring up the skill level as time passes
I don't understand why there's so many people that want to see Starcraft 2 declining, by allowing koreans to continue their dominance. It'll take a while longer until even the most vocal community members will understand that the lack of foreign players is hurting the growth of Starcraft 2 E-Sports on the big scale. Yet the vocal community members don't quite realise that their not producing the numbers, that are needed for growth, it's the casual players. They need to be drawn into the scene (few as they might be, due to Blizzards 20th century business model) to make it bigger, but right now the generation of players that bought HOTS are being lost, because everything about WCS has been the biggest joke in E-Sports so far. The production value is an insult. When these potential fans have finally lost their interest in the game, because they're not been offered good experiences like WCS Europe finals or MLG / RIOT like production values, they're just gone forever. So next try is Legacy of the void. Maybe then Blizzard, tournament organizers and vocal community figures have figured out that everything about this WCS model is going to make the game decline. But maybe by then teams and players have figured out how to actually be good at the game. There's nothing genetic about koreans, that makes them better players. It's willpower and infrastructure. Remember how TB got insulted for calling the EG Lair what it was then and is at this moment, a frat house? Well, how did that turn out, with EG now having to build another house that is actually supposed to be used for training? Yet casual viewers don't actually need foreign players on the same level as koreans to be excited for national leagues, just look at sports in general, where national leagues are sustainable business models. There's nothing wrong about a exclusively north american league. Germany has one, which still exists, despite suffering from horrible production value and marketing. So imagine a world, where foreigners actually develope the willpower to be good at this game, so they'll actually be able to beat koreans. Then SC2 is going to explode, but up until then we need a sustainable national league system with production value to draw in the casuals that make for the big numbers and growth. Oh and Blizzard need to arrive in the 21st century.
On April 23 2013 09:34 dirtydurb82 wrote: Concur. NA for North Americans, EU for European Union. Have two Korean WCS brackets if you need to. Whatever. I want to watch guys that speak my language play for something meaningful. And the rating bear out that everyone else agrees with me.
And yes, as discussed in this forum thread, the WCS has been poorly managed to this point. Dafuq.
Don't worry everybody blizzard says this is great for the NA scene and with their great history in putting the competitive scene ahead of their own financial gain were just gonna have to take their word for it.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves.
They just MADE the game big, they MADE it to an esports title. SC would practically not exist without the korean scene. So they didn't contribute they contributed EVERYTHING, in fact they created this "thing".
One part of the "thing" to me is, btw, to watch great games. Great games come from great gameplay on 2 sides, and to be honest, I haven't seen much from NA players, besides very few (but that wouldn't make me watch tournaments). So Koreans not only invented this "thing", made it BIG, they also bring more entertainment. That being said, the best player should get the money, not a poor player get it, because he lives in an area where the level of competition isn't that high. Soccer Worldchampionship may be in a specific country, but all the best players in the world are there to give their best and to make the best games, therefore also bring the highest amount of entertainment (and i do not mena vuvuzelas) to the billions of viewers.
They made BW an esport, not SC2. SC2 is driven by the Western audience. Go check out the difference in attendance between Korean SC2 events and Western SC2 events.
Soccer is the opposite of the current WCS system. With soccer, we would only have South American and European teams playing for the championship.
Well if it wasn't for the Koreans, SC2 wouldn't have ever been that big as it is right now, we saw that in tons of devblogs, making ofs etc that the focus so much on the esport bc of the Koreans. No Koreans no SC2 how we have it today, no SC2 scene outside of Korea
On April 23 2013 19:25 TigerKarl wrote: I don't understand why there's so many people that want to see Starcraft 2 declining, by allowing koreans to continue their dominance. It'll take a while longer until even the most vocal community members will understand that the lack of foreign players is hurting the growth of Starcraft 2 E-Sports on the big scale. Yet the vocal community members don't quite realise that their not producing the numbers, that are needed for growth, it's the casual players. They need to be drawn into the scene (few as they might be, due to Blizzards 20th century business model) to make it bigger, but right now the generation of players that bought HOTS are being lost, because everything about WCS has been the biggest joke in E-Sports so far. The production value is an insult. When these potential fans have finally lost their interest in the game, because they're not been offered good experiences like WCS Europe finals or MLG / RIOT like production values, they're just gone forever. So next try is Legacy of the void. Maybe then Blizzard, tournament organizers and vocal community figures have figured out that everything about this WCS model is going to make the game decline. But maybe by then teams and players have figured out how to actually be good at the game. There's nothing genetic about koreans, that makes them better players. It's willpower and infrastructure. Remember how TB got insulted for calling the EG Lair what it was then and is at this moment, a frat house? Well, how did that turn out, with EG now having to build another house that is actually supposed to be used for training? Yet casual viewers don't actually need foreign players on the same level as koreans to be excited for national leagues, just look at sports in general, where national leagues are sustainable business models. There's nothing wrong about a exclusively north american league. Germany has one, which still exists, despite suffering from horrible production value and marketing. So imagine a world, where foreigners actually develope the willpower to be good at this game, so they'll actually be able to beat koreans. Then SC2 is going to explode, but up until then we need a sustainable national league system with production value to draw in the casuals that make for the big numbers and growth. Oh and Blizzard need to arrive in the 21st century.
There is nothing wrong about an exclusively north american league.
There is lot of wrong about banning players from the most elite tournament in the region based on where they are from.
<edit> the following part is not a reply to the above post, but to many others that keep bringing up the prizemoney raid part</edit>
And about the "they take the prizemoney and go back to Seoul stuff" : As WCS goes on the players will have to move to their WCS region cause the 2 week lan period for NA Season 1 is just the beginning, and the aim is to have premier league 100% LAN.
Perhaps the full GSL 8 week schedule ( Week1-3 Ro32, Week 4-5 Ro16, Week 6 Ro8, Week7 Ro4, Week8 Finals ) wont arrive this year, but in US its already online for 2 weeks, or pretty much 20-25% of the season.
4 week offline part is very plausible for season 2 - how do you play from korea then, huh?
On April 23 2013 06:34 Branman wrote: With the Koreans entering the NA tournament, they basically come in and take the money from our own scene without contributing anything themselves. Because Koreans take up all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels, there's 0 chance for a similar structure in NA to evolve. There's no incentive for any up and comers to actually go all in and actually train all the time because they start out at a disadvantage and there's no way to actually catch up because you get to practice on the NA ladder. The highest-placing NA player is an immigrant who is lucky enough to have a very marketable personality and has a team that allows him to commit to practicing.
I disagree, for at least three reasons.
First, numbers, Koreans currently have less than half (13/32) of the spots in premier (liquidpedia), and looking at the lower brackets for the premiere qualifier (remember 9th-40th place get invites--perhaps others will too, and I sorta doubt MLG/Blizz will invite more Koreans) means that Koreans will probably be in the minority for challenger league too. That is hardly "all of the spots in NA tourneys at all levels".
Second, building on the former reason, this season is the worst that it will be in terms of Korean advantage, because as time goes on the AM and EU events will be moved from online to the studios, making participation from Korean team houses impractical. Korean long-distance participation should only decrease over time. Combine that with the fact that Koreans aren't even the majority now. The current season's system is the worst it will get, and it will improve over time, assuming you don't mind Koreans residing in AM to play in AM (which I think is fair).
Third on taking "the money from our scene without contributing anything themselves", glance at what teams those Koreans in AM premier are on. Aside from Nestea, they are from EG, Liquid, Complexity, Axiom, Root...see the pattern? These are foreign teams. Aren't Korean players on foreign teams contributing to our teams (and thus to our scene)? Do we want to force our teams to always leave their Korean players in Korea? How will that help the Korean players contribute to their foreign teammates in AM/EU (which, by the way, will include the up-and-comers mentioned, because our teams are looking to and actively picking up new foreign talent as they find it)?
Long term, I should hope we want our teams here in our regions, especially with any of their Korean players who want to come. But we won't get them here any faster by banning them all at the start of season 1. Hence this gradual transition from "Korean (and other countries'!) players can play from home online a bit more this first season." to the eventual "Time to move to the EU/AM equivalents of Seoul (i.e. whatever city the studio and team houses end up in on each continent) so you can play offline as much as you are required if you want to compete in the global league."
I'm not claiming this was the best system; there are good arguments for alternatives. But the system we've been given is neither Korean theft nor the makings of the total Korean takeover the quoted poster describes.
I mostly agree. Long term it will equal out. I was just trying to address why people are upset about it. Just because it is something that should fix itself in a year doesn't mean people can't be upset about it now.
However, the point about the foreign teams is misplaced. They don't necessarily have to develop the NA scene. That's just their key market that they are selling to. For example, Axiom has specifically said that they don't plan on signing any foreigners; they just plan on focusing on Koreans. With EG, I don't think Coach Park is working with their NA or EU based players; the Suppy to Korea news release specifically said "he'll be going to Korea to train under Coach Park." Another example with EG, they could have signed foreigners to go play in proleague, but they sign Oz, Revival, and Alive (though to be fair to EG, Scarlett said that EG was interested in signing her in an interview).
Koreans on NA/EU teams serve as a way to gain exposure by placing highly in tournaments; the foreigners on these teams serve to gain exposure through streaming and being personalities. EG has said that they are changing their approach toward the NA team house, so we'll hope that they will succeed in getting better tournament results out of their NA-based players.
On April 23 2013 15:47 thepuppyassassin wrote: "Q: You are at a disadvantage not earning points from foreign tournaments. A: It's not something we can do anything about. All we can do is clear our minds, and do the best in our given situation. I don't think about it as a disadvantage, I just try do the best from where I am." -Flash
Americans need to stop whining about incentives. Greatness isn't something achieved with handouts, it's something fought for, tooth and nail.
If you're a player, you're right, that is the mindset you want to have.
But for fans and for businesses there's no point in such a mindset. We're allowed to say that there's a gap here that is only going to get bigger and it needs to be addressed before it gets so ridiculous the foreign scene just dies altogether. Not for the players sakes, but for our sakes.
On April 23 2013 05:58 skeldark wrote: Its disgusting how much racism flooded over TL lately.
Is he Korean or "foreigner". Thats all what people care about. And than the same people complain Koreans have no identity. Well, hard to have an identity if big chunks of this community see only the race of a person. Its a global online computer game. I don't understand why the country a player is born in, matters at all.
I love that there are Koreans in WCS NA and am more likely to watch now, but calling the Korean/foreigner distinction racism is fucking stupid.
If you dont know what racism is look it up first. Or here a more simple way:
Go throw the post in all the "korean"-threads and just replace the words foreigner and korean, with black and white. Then read them again.
Its good old plain racism ... wearing a new suit.
All I see is SPAM vs SPAM, and SPAM is not a race!