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On April 21 2013 17:37 Thor.Rush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate. Same with EU though.
Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets.
For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1.
Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
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On April 21 2013 18:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:37 Thor.Rush wrote:On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate. Same with EU though. Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets. For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1. Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
Though most of the Korean deaths in the WCS EU were not caused by reasons, where a higher latency would matter all that much.
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Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
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for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch
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Very nice! In EU dominating Terrans and in US dominating Protoss :D
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So sad that good players beat less good players
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What's worst is I can actually tell you what the "sick storylines" are. I just have to pick some guy that I don't know of who managed to get pretty high up in the bracket, and it's probably a sick storyline, i.e. way cooler than having those faceless boring Koreans qualify.
For example, "hendralisk" taking out Nony and almost making it past a Chinese no-name is probably the sickest storyline there is. For EU, the sick storyline would be "Bunny" qualifying, after having made a name for himself in...hm.. danish LANs I guess?
So sick.
I'm kinda joking of course, it's cool for no-names to take some wins, I just don't get how it makes for a good story. I guess I'm just happy to witness good Starcraft, and that often does not correlate with t3h storylines :D
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On April 21 2013 18:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:37 Thor.Rush wrote:On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate. Same with EU though. Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets. For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1. Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
Most Koreans lost not just not in bo1, but bo3 in EU qualifiers, but also didn't lose just 1 but multiple bo3.
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On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch If you want the best games, you still won't watch WCS NA, you will watch GSL, GSTL and Pro League.
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On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Yes they live in a region that have a WCS qualfier with far superior talent, fewer relative qualifier spots and similar prize pool. Tell me more how it's so unfair to the rest of the world. And how is it snuffing out local competition when the MLG's were dominated by Korean's regardless before this change. At most it just is more of the same.
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On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
For the point "i want to see good games" you are maybe right. (But it sounds a bit like "everything beneath korean pros are bad" for me). But I think you missing the point of the most people then, who want to have gamer from their region to take part of this "world" championship. Also you can see korean vs korean in every other major tournament.
However I understand your argument and your point of view.
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Strong performance by Axiom, getting 2 of the 4 spots yesterday and having 2 other players still in it.
Edit: An with Ryung invited, they even have a chance to get their full roster in!
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Stop whining and L2P ..
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On April 21 2013 18:17 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 18:13 {ToT}ColmA wrote: for me personaly...i just wanna see good games, so the question is, do i see good games when watching some random us / eu "pro" vs korean? probably not, so with my agenda of wanting good games i prefer korean vs korean cuz they are just quite frankly better at the game.
btw whats all this newage shit with the storylines, do people want stuff like that now and not good games? O.o but i guess when u watch shitty players u need storylines to make it remotely "interesting", but thats just a hunch If you want the best games, you still won't watch WCS NA, you will watch GSL, GSTL and Pro League.
the wcs na itself will be fine with all the koreans in it, just the qualifiar is not worthwhile to watch (for me) but that has a lot to do with how poorly it is run (1 stream / cast with bad casters) for example and poor choice of games actually shown.
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On April 21 2013 18:05 mikkmagro wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:37 coverpunch wrote: I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play. It's just not that simple. With the way things are, it is simply not possible for North Americans to defeat Koreans, ever. Firstly, there is simply no way for a North American to sustain himself until he becomes good enough to compete at the levels of the players you mentioned. Most go to college, or have a job, and have to play after they get home from their daily commute. The Koreans you mentioned, are already well established. They don't need to sustain themselves, because they play for a team who gives them a house to live in, and food to eat. Furthermore, they're exposed to the best practice environment possible. They have lag free access to the best ladder in the world, they live in a house with top notch players from all the different races with whom they can practice, exchange strategies etc, and someone like Oz also gets a legendary coach (not to mention secondary coaches) to help them perfect their skills and make sure not to slack. Without a similar infrastructure, it is simply not possible for foreigners to catch up. Period. Infrastructure makes this a Catch-22. Without players of high quality, there's no infrastructure, but with no infrastructure, you can't have players of high quality. But my point follows yours - isolating NA players from Koreans is the wrong direction. You certainly will not build sustainable infrastructure or competitive players if NA players only play Koreans at the premier events but otherwise avoid them.
I think you make a contradictory point, however, in stating that North American pros often choose other things to do. If a NA pro is going to college and playing the game on the side, by definition he is not a professional. It's no different if a college accounting major leaves early to go to the NBA. We don't call that person an accountant and wonder why they don't pass the CPA exam. That person is a basketball player.
If we're talking about building some kind of minor league or something in NA to help build up players, we can have that conversation. But saying Koreans playing in WCS NA is a bad thing because the Koreans will win, that's just dumb.
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On April 21 2013 17:51 ZenithM wrote: One day I'll understand what "storylines" people are referring to. I think it's a sugarcoating term for "drama" or "not game related tidbits I find interesting" similar to the stuff that gets written about hollywood stars or European aristocrats in the rainbow press.
+ Show Spoiler +just poking fun, don't take it too serious, don't want to devalue anyone's opinion on this it's just that this storyline talkgets used way too often in these discussions
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Terrible results due to crap WCS rules.
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On April 21 2013 18:19 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Yes they live in a region that have a WCS qualfier with far superior talent, fewer relative qualifier spots and similar prize pool. Tell me more how it's so unfair to the rest of the world. And how is it snuffing out local competition when the MLG's were dominated by Korean's regardless before this change. At most it just is more of the same. Actually, Korean Code A is much more rewarding, and much more inclusive than EU/NA Challenger League.
Maybe people just don't want to watch yet another Korean-dominated MLG. There's the regular MLG tournament for that. WCS, on the other hand, was about local talent, at least last year.
On April 21 2013 18:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 17:37 Thor.Rush wrote:On April 21 2013 13:24 goswser wrote: People quickly forget that the majority of NA players capable of beating koreans were invited to the premier league, NA players aren't as bad as this may indicate. Same with EU though. Yeah but KR to EU is a lot, lot worse then KR to NA and EU qualifiers were bo1 for a long time so it was even easier to get upsets. For example if WCS NA was bo1 single elimination like WCS EU qualifiers jaedong would have lost to Mystery, but it was bo3 so he ended up winning 2-1. Bo1's allow a lot more upsets and add that on with a lot more latency from KR to EU I am not surprised that not many koreans qualified for EU from the select few that chose EU.
In four qualifiers, only three Koreans were eliminated in BO1. TAiLS in the first qualifier, Shuttle in the second qualifier, and Daisy in the fourth qualifier. At all other times, Koreans were eliminated in BO3s.
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There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
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On April 21 2013 18:27 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 18:05 mikkmagro wrote:On April 21 2013 17:37 coverpunch wrote: I will argue to the contrary of what seems to be the consensus complaint, that Koreans playing in WCS NA is bad for NA players. In fact, I think being exposed to Korean competition is better for the NA scene in the long run. If NA pros want to stay top notch, the bar today was set by Alicia, TheSTC, Crank, and Oz.
And honestly, if foreigners want to stand any chance at winning the whole thing, the real bar was set this last week in Code S by Roro, Taeja, Flash, Symbol, etc. I don't think it would be outrageous to say those Code S players are another level above the NA qualifiers today.
Complaining that foreigners might stand a better chance or would have a better pro scene if they didn't know how high that bar is, IMO is ignorant. Sports is a meritocracy and fans ultimately want to see the highest quality of competition. Foreign players who want to get there should constantly be exposed to that level and pressure of play. It's just not that simple. With the way things are, it is simply not possible for North Americans to defeat Koreans, ever. Firstly, there is simply no way for a North American to sustain himself until he becomes good enough to compete at the levels of the players you mentioned. Most go to college, or have a job, and have to play after they get home from their daily commute. The Koreans you mentioned, are already well established. They don't need to sustain themselves, because they play for a team who gives them a house to live in, and food to eat. Furthermore, they're exposed to the best practice environment possible. They have lag free access to the best ladder in the world, they live in a house with top notch players from all the different races with whom they can practice, exchange strategies etc, and someone like Oz also gets a legendary coach (not to mention secondary coaches) to help them perfect their skills and make sure not to slack. Without a similar infrastructure, it is simply not possible for foreigners to catch up. Period. Infrastructure makes this a Catch-22. Without players of high quality, there's no infrastructure, but with no infrastructure, you can't have players of high quality. But my point follows yours - isolating NA players from Koreans is the wrong direction. You certainly will not build sustainable infrastructure or competitive players if NA players only play Koreans at the premier events but otherwise avoid them. I think you make a contradictory point, however, in stating that North American pros often choose other things to do. If a NA pro is going to college and playing the game on the side, by definition he is not a professional. It's no different if a college accounting major leaves early to go to the NBA. We don't call that person an accountant and wonder why they don't pass the CPA exam. That person is a basketball player. If we're talking about building some kind of minor league or something in NA to help build up players, we can have that conversation. But saying Koreans playing in WCS NA is a bad thing because the Koreans will win, that's just dumb.
They're not isolated. With a residency requirement, you would still get a significant amount of Koreans: viOlet, Polt, Shuttle and the other Clarity players, and most Koreans on American teams with an American team house, but this way, Koreans are getting the best out of both worlds. There is no reason for JD, Oz or aLive to practice on the NA ladder (and thus expose american players to high level play) - they'll be practicing with Koreans in Korea, and thus they will obviously dominate people without the same situation.
Actually, I agree with not having equal prizepools for NA/EU/KR, and I also think that not having a league for SEA/China/Australia is very bad for those scenes, but the way it is now, it does absolutely nothing for North/South American players, except those who received a very baseless invite into Premier.
Most foreigners aren't full professionals. MaNa? LucifroN? VortiX? They all studied or are currently studying while playing SC2 competitively, and at the very least they are as good as mid-tier Koreans who play full-time without any worries. Equality between the leagues is silly (obviously, Korea has 3294834983 full-time professionals with team houses and support staff), but if you think that in this way, the domestic situation will improve, you're even sillier.
That said, Koreans have a lot of tournaments they can uninhibitedly prove themselves in. WCS Korea GSTL Pro League MLG DreamHack IEM NASL
They run all year round. You have the games from the very best all the time. Why can't some local heroes be given some leeway to develop? Yes, perhaps a $100,000 tournament off the bat is not the best way to do it, but these competitors need something of the sort.
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