Day2: TAiLS lost 1-2 to PsiOniC because he decided to turn around mid-base trade in a PvP. finale lost 1-2 to Bunny. finale made 1 collosus and tried to tech switch to templar, but Bunny hit a timing right before storm was done and won. Next game Bunny did a hellbat-window mine-marines drop and followed through with a mech push. Shuttle and Daisy both dropped out in Bo1s
Day3: Daisy lost to 1-2 TAiLS Shuttle lost to KrasS's hellbat drops, tried his own and KrasS defended with vikings. finale and TAiLS both lost to Strelok and KrasS respectively in the same manner. They lost to hellbat drops followed by mech push that they didn't know what to do. Both Mvp protosses looked like they've never played against it before. Finale also tried to do proxy oracle and got shut down hard when Strelok smelled it and had turrets up before the first oracle was out.
As you can see, almost all series to koreans lost were almost always 1-2, close ones. The koreans chose to do a lot of all-ins and it either works or it doesn't. Their losses came from falling behind in upgrades, falling behind in bases, or had a questionable decision. They didn't lose because they missed a force field or couldn't micro properly due to lag. They were able to execute what they wanted to do without trouble.
Sure, these koreans are far fewer in numbers and not the same who went to NA, but if you've watched their games they didn't look that great, and which is why only Shuttle got through. You can stop attributing their losses to lag, food poisoning, wrists, and whatnot.
Agreed. The koreans that participated were simply not very good. They werent good in code a/b and they werent good in wcs eu. No big surprise
On April 21 2013 18:40 bluQ wrote: Am I the only one who doesn't understand the MLG bracket in comparison to TLpedia?
MLG bracket is broken, along with the entire NA qualifier. Don't base anything on what MLG says or does, go to TL instead if you want correct information.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW says hi.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
So what you want is alienate the scene and screw the Koreans, do I get that right? If you ban competition, it will not just destroy the bounds between Korea and the west (and believe me, we do need the Koreans) it will also destroy local competition. Why would any NA player try to get better or very high level, when he can be mediocre to good and still get tons of money?
I said in every thread and I will say it again, invest money into teamhouses. That goes out to the big teams, build an infrastructure , let 16 people live there and let them pay to play all day, feed them and give them shelter. This is not a huge investment per month is not just insanely good public relation but also helps to grow the scene. To tournament organizers, stop throwing tons of money out in a weekend tournament, because it will attract the best of the best (Koreans) they will come and they will take it and leave.
Put up weekly tournaments or a month long league with 4 qualifiers and ~3000$ pricemoney , every month or every two month. Its affordable and especially doable, but if you continue to do major tournaments because you are greedy and want to make money instead of growing the scene, well ... don't complain the big guns are coming. ESL Go4Sc2 monthly finals etc are a good example to grow the scene. There are not really lots of Koreans playing and it always filled with local talent.
(regardless of Hyuns killing spree). ESV Korean Weekly for the Koreans and their scene. IPL Fightclub .. could be done on a local basis etc. But it seems like a circle. An investor will not invest money if he has to build, but no one will build if there is no chance of getting money.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
Koreans are drawn to the west? ................................ The reason why they are coming to the west is because of this.
Nothing to do with drive. And because the competition in NA is much lower and the competition in KR is way higher. There was nothing outside of Korea for BW was because the foreigner just couldn't compete.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorporated, which is: not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
How awesome would it be, if the whole Axiom team manages to get a spot in the Code S of NA? Already three of five are in and two more are still in the race. TB must be an incredibly happy man... :D
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is :not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
You dont have to have permanent residency in korea to qualify. You need to be present for all matches in the studio. Its just that it makes no financial sense to fly in and fly out for every round but it would be possible theoretically.
There is a reason why local sports cups and competition are popular, even if the quality of the games is far inferior to the best of the best. People watch football, even in countries, where football is a pathetic joke compared to the world class countries (like mine, Austria is pretty pathetic in football). People can relate to them, they have an easier time feeling involved, when something they feel apart of gets to play and they get hyped up as much as someone from Brazil or Spain would, if those teams were to play. It doesn't matter whether or not the games aren't as good as the top games, but you feel attached to it, because it's YOUR team playing.
It's understandable, that many elitist fans (and that's not meant in a bad way), only care for THE BEST games/players, no matter where they come from. But as the community has grown over the past few years, it is only natural, that this "MY PLAYERS" mentality is at least as strong, as the "BEST GAMES ONLY" mentality.
There is enough opportunity to only watch the best Koreans on the planet, but there is no need to flood the lower tier tournaments with Koreans, just to make the elitists watch it. Yes, WCS is supposed to be the highest quality tournament series and it is, but the regionals do not necessarily have to be either. You can qualify for the football champions league from any European country, if you reach the top ranks in the current season, no matter how shit the country is. Then, you can qualify for the big tournament, the champins league and when you get fucked by superior teams there, then this is how it shall be. But complaining, that the regional tournaments and cups are bad, that's just pathetic, because it just does not work that way. You do not intentionally seed barcelona, real madrid or manchester united within the Austrian cups, because the quality is too shit. It doesn't work that way.
The problem is, the infrastructure is not there. While football is hugely popular, Starcraft 2 isn't. Blizzard can't afford to dump money in "local talent" shows nobody will watch. And if you limit NA qualifiers to NA players, then no, WCS finals won't be the highest quality tournament, it will just be another foreigner trashing fest. Korea will send Innovation, Flash, Code S champions and other Kespa RTS gods and you will send 8 student semi-amateurs against those guys? Well, that would be an interesting tournament now would it...
I'm not saying the system is perfect, but there would be equal potential for critique if NA was "NA restricted".
What Blizzard can or cannot afford is probably not something we really know or can decide on. If there is no local talent, then there will never be any western heroes and only Koreans. This doesn't really help with growth in any way. If no one plays Starcraft 2 in the west, that's not good.
A team from Austria can qualify for the champions league and get fucking slaughtered there, but that doesn't take away anything from the champions league, does it? They will not make it out of the groups and if they get lucky, they will be massacred in round one of the final tournament. Still, the champions league quality stays the same, as the best teams will make it through to the finals. And each country can only send a limited amount of teams to the champions league. Restrict NA qualifiers to NA only doesn't kill the competition. The WCS finals will not be one by "randomNAbrah", but by the best players, but lesser players might get the chance of earning at least some money to justify their investment.
Yes, Sc2 is too small, but it certainly won't grow if we shove all the money up the Korean's charming butts, especially in local/regional tournaments.
BW survive for 10 years+ with just Korean players.
Let me tell you. Korean top players+Kespa+GOM+OGN are the one that build the foundation of the e-sports(SC2/BW). Not the western players.
SC2 can grow even without the western players.
It is just time to accept the fact that the NA players can never stand up to the top Korean players based on current situation where the Koreans has the better training environment,living support and etc.
And how many western fans were there for Broodwar compared to Sc2 today? Even the Koreans are drawn to the west, because there is so much drive/money here, compared to the Korean Sc2 life. How much has TL grown since the release of Sc2? 5-10x? There was one tournament in the west for Broodwar on a yearly basis, right? How many big tournaments are there today? Things have changed. It does not matter who has built the foundation. What matters is the present and in the present, it is most likely very wise to concentrate on the west, because that's where most of the fans come from.
I don't think we should throw around with videos or numbers or anything. Remember last years WCS Europe finals. 100k+ viewers and not a single Korean face was there. It just doesn't work that way. At least I would not want to revert back to the BW state, where there was NOTHING outside of Korea.
So what you want is alienate the scene and screw the Koreans, do I get that right? If you ban competition, it will not just destroy the bounds between Korea and the west (and believe me, we do need the Koreans) it will also destroy local competition. Why would any NA player try to get better or very high level, when he can be mediocre to good and still get tons of money?
I said in every thread and I will say it again, invest money into teamhouses. That goes out to the big teams, build an infrastructure , let 16 people live there and let them pay to play all day, feed them and give them shelter. This is not a huge investment per month is not just insanely good public relation but also helps to grow the scene. To tournament organizers, stop throwing tons of money out in a weekend tournament, because it will attract the best of the best (Koreans) they will come and they will take it and leave.
Put up weekly tournaments or a month long league with 4 qualifiers and ~3000$ pricemoney , every month or every two month. Its affordable and especially doable, but if you continue to do major tournaments because you are greedy and want to make money instead of growing the scene, well ... don't complain the big guns are coming. ESL Go4Sc2 monthly finals etc are a good example to grow the scene. There are not really lots of Koreans playing and it always filled with local talent.
(regardless of Hyuns killing spree). ESV Korean Weekly for the Koreans and their scene. IPL Fightclub .. could be done on a local basis etc. But it seems like a circle. An investor will not invest money if he has to build, but no one will build if there is no chance of getting money.
Stop blaming Koreans for that.
A regional tournament should have regional players playing in it, with less money than a world cup would provide of course. That's the way it works. You don't ban Koreans or anyone else from participating region free tournaments. Real Madrid cannot play in the Austrian football league, they play within their country they are located at.
There is nothing to talk about here really. I know you've been very vocal about this situation in this thread and probably many others. But a regional tournament is just what it says it is. Worldwide competition does not die, because not anyone can play in every regional tournament. It doesn't matter how often you repeat yourself, I'm sorry.
But I think there is a clear difference between the EU and the NA scene, simply because the EU just has way more stuff. What's there in the NA? Almost nothing.
No one blames Koreans, the organizers are to blame, because they apparently see things short sighted and rather have a few thousand viewers more, than provide platforms for players to not have them waste their time.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is: not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
The problem is that wouldn't be possible on such a short notice. How many players do you think would move to where the WCS is being held? And where should the WCS be held? There is no permanent studio on NA which is able to handle it, as far as I know.
On April 21 2013 18:12 Ireniicas wrote: Extremely sad to see NA/SA Rest of the World Dreams snuffed out by poorly conceived tournament rules permitting players who live and work in Regions that already enjoy a WCS qualifier able to join weaker 'easier targets'.
Yes, hardcore Starcraft fans that are ever present on forums such as this will rejoice at the opportunity to see more top notch Koreans at convenient times. The casual, silent mass audience will just continue to be disconnected from the scene whilst promising amateurs find it increasingly hard to get noticed and receive the support they need to have that talent nurtured.
TL DR. WCS limiting global growth by snuffing out localised competition and story lines and channelling Starcraft ever deeper into a niche.
Good Idea. Lets go racist and ban koreans. Many people forget that GSL was always was open to foreigners that have the skill to compete. Why should other tournaments be different?
That's not what he is saying. What he says is exactly the same rule GSL has incorparated, which is :not allowing anyone who doesn't live in the region to qualify.
You dont have to have permanent residency in korea to qualify. You need to be present for all matches in the studio. Its just that it makes no financial sense to fly in and fly out for every round but it would be possible theoretically.
And where does the original poster mention anything about being a permanent resident? The issue the poster is highlighting is that Koreans can now from the comforts of their own home qualify for a NA tournament and yet GSL didn't allow this for NA players.
Seriously people should stop whining about the koreans and instead whine on the NA teams and players. You keep watching their streams and going on their websites? Good job giving them money without having to show results. It's up to the viewers and teams themselves to make their players actually practice to be the best, you know like people do in any other sport...
This is totally stupid. Why are koreans allowed to qualify in American and European WCS? This is like cheating cause they use the easier foreign qualifiers to participate, instead of doing it in their homeland. Whats the idea behind seperated qualify-areas when you can participate where you want?
Why is all the anger/discussion towards Kr/foreigners and so little discussion of the huge amount of arbitrary invites that don't stand up?
No issues with Polt/Violet or US resident players getting invites, if anything the US players list seems weirder. Also not kicking a pretty much confirmed map hacker out was poor
EPT
TAiLS lost 0-1 to 
Daloze
Beastyqt with a standard bio terran TvP straight up 1-2.
