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United States1849 Posts
On June 07 2024 16:52 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 09:05 rwala wrote:On June 04 2024 01:56 Waxangel wrote:On June 03 2024 23:13 Jeremy_Sc2 wrote:On June 03 2024 21:09 MJG wrote:On June 03 2024 20:51 Jeremy_Sc2 wrote:
I don't think the asterix by Wax is warranted regarding the ESL 10 trophy. Oliveria has only won 3 Asia region regionals that would qualify as international. The rest were China region before they consolidated the regions in 2023. So while pedantic, the original Asterix was pedantic but also factually wrong. The SEA and TW/HK/MO/JP regionals were pretty irrelevant compared to the China regional, and China itself has something like 3x the population of the EU, so I think the China regionals count just as much as the EU regionals if we're merely wanting to be pedantic... Since we are in a pedantic loop we are talking about 10 international wins (as is the definition of ESL). The China results while there is a valid arguement for being comparable is not technically an international event. He has 7 national titles, and 4 international ones. They are counting international wins, as the title of the trophy and their response on Twitter indicates. There is no need for an asterix in the article because Oli has not met that threshold yet. I think Wax just forgot it was China region before it became the Asia region. There's definitely some pedantry here but I think it's important. National/continental/international haven't been relevant competitive sub-divisions in top tier StarCraft II since WCS 2012, which was held in an Olympics style. When the modern WCS Challenger/EPT Regional systems were set in 2017, China was given its own regional subdivision for practical reasons (the business relationship with NetEase being a big part), not because country-level divisions still meant anything in StarCraft II. As far SC2 fans have been concerned, the only WCS/EPT divisions that have mattered from 2017 onward have been 'regionals/challenger' and 'main event.' Honestly, I'm inclined to think it was a dumb mistake from ESL where they simply forgot about Oliveira's regional titles—they've followed the long standing tradition of presenting the various regionals as somewhat coequal, and it's weird for them to abruptly make such an explicit distinction (while prize money and # of seeds differ, all the regions get the same broadcast presentation and general promotion). If it was intentional, then it's an incredibly cynical retrofitting/invention of a previously non-existent standard ('international EPT tournament') for the sake of giving Serral a trophy. [PS: This is also why every article I edit never says MVP won "4 GSLs" outright, and will have some comment/clarification about how GomTV arbitrarily decided the 2011 GSL World Championship is equal to Code S, even though it's ended up being inconsistent with the rest of GSL history.] I agree this is a dumb mistake that should be corrected, but also it's telling how little people seem to care, or how few would have noticed had you not pointed it out. ESL just wanted to dunk on Miz. It's pretty pathetic for an organisation backed by blood money a petrostate and more blood money an air force to go out of their way to trash one person's subjective opinion so publicly. Apollo should apologise. An apollogy, if you will.  I don't think Apollo is specifically to blame. I just wanted to make a pun...
I wish i could say something like "i live in their head rent free.", but I'm genuinely concerned about the pettiness some people have displayed.
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On June 06 2024 14:03 onPHYRE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2024 06:24 Tommy131313 wrote:
imho you can't seriously blame jetlag for Maru to (nearly) always lose against Serral. In the case of Dallas, it's almost the same time to fly for both of them, approx. 12 hours.
If you look at all Maru-Serral matches say for the last 3 years, Maru has a map score of 7-29 offline/online (without minor cups). You can search for random explanations for this vast difference, or you can apply ockham's razor and assume, Serral's just better than Maru in the game, at least since 3 years (prolly much longer).
And if you just look at the last 3 major international playoffs, it's even worse for Maru... 0-11 mapscore.
So I don't believe there has to be a GOAT debate anymore, apart from Korean (or GSL) bias. Let’s also not forget that Serral is literally serving his military service. You can talk about it being different than KR military service (and you would be correct), but I think any other player under the reduced practice hours (Serral has stated to a few practice partners that while he can practice on weekends, his time devoted to SC2 has dropped overall due to responsibilities) would have flamed out. Serral just went a casual 14-2 including 7-0 versus Maru/herO (the best of the other 2 races) so it’s not like he had some easy set up. I don’t want to hear about Maru’s jet lag when this man is literally serving in the military (even with special accommodations for sports and his own practice room, it’s clear he won’t be able to practice full time with the biggest SC2 tournament in history coming up - based on $$$). People can debate it all they want and since it generates buzz for the scene I’m good with it. But there is no realistic debate in my mind anymore. Serral is so clearly ahead regardless of what criteria someone needs to elevate to get through the mental gymnastics required. I would be remiss if I didn’t end this by pointing out that not only is Maru one of the most influential players for this esport we all enjoy, but he is very clearly the second best player of all time and even currently. You can shit on him losing 8-0 to Serral in back to back grand finals, but name a player other than Serral (a generational talent) that placed better than Maru.. Reaching the finals they consistently in a game like SC2 is so difficult and no one else is putting up results that can even be compared to these two. If you exclude Serral, Maru would be favored in a best of 7 against any other player in the world right now based on betting odds.
They have enough history in the last few years they seem quite reminiscent of Jaedong/Flash
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Even Serral doesn't want to play Maru lategame, if game 2 of IEM grand finals is any indication of that.
Don't get me wrong cause I agree with most of the sentiment in your post, but I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Just because Serral killed Maru early does not imply he's scared of his opponent's late-game. All we can really conclude from the results is that Serral saw a kill timing, went for it, and was successful on multiple occasions.
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ESL just wanted to dunk on Miz. It's pretty pathetic for an organisation backed by blood money a petrostate and more blood money an air force to go out of their way to trash one person's subjective opinion so publicly. Apollo should apologise. An apollogy, if you will. I don't think Apollo is specifically to blame. I just wanted to make a pun...
The fact that this comment hasn't resulted in a ban just goes to show how trash TLnet's moderation has become. But go ahead and ban me instead for calling you out - I won't be missing anything.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 08 2024 11:41 Bennito_bh wrote:Show nested quote +Even Serral doesn't want to play Maru lategame, if game 2 of IEM grand finals is any indication of that. Don't get me wrong cause I agree with most of the sentiment in your post, but I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Just because Serral killed Maru early does not imply he's scared of his opponent's late-game. All we can really conclude from the results is that Serral saw a kill timing, went for it, and was successful on multiple occasions.
I didn't mean that he's scared. I meant that he doesn't want to have to work like a possessed demon for 20-30 minutes trying to win a terran-favored lategame. Maru just turtles up, mules, scans, and pewpews with his ghosts, while Serral multitasks like his brain is on fire trying to control 6-7 different control groups attacking and defending, while macroing and re-spreading creep. It looks extremely taxing for a zerg to do what Serral does at his nutty APM, even if he pulls it off. People watch and think how impressive it is, while I'm wondering to myself, "what kind of stamina does a player need to do this insane shit game after game?"
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On June 07 2024 19:31 Ciaus237 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair  There is a nontrivial minority of Starcraft fans who would only ever allow a Terran to be their GOAT candidate. Having been around since late WoL, it feels like the "Terran is the true skill race" crowd have thinned a bit / got quieter, but certainly haven't gone away.
I think this has mostly to do with the fact that Terran is the most micro-intensive race. When you see excellent terran micro, the crowd goes oooh and aaah. It's a crowd-pleasing race, and it gives the impression that terran is most skilled.
What the crowd doesn't see is that the impressive things zergs do aren't nearly as visually flashy while still just as impressive. Except for Clem, I haven't seen a Terran who multitasks like Serral or Reynor, bouncing from screen to screen like a pinball. Their FPVs are nauseating.
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On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair
I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016.
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On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016.
After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett.
Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players.
Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source.
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On June 08 2024 13:50 Perceivere wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote:On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source.
Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays?
I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things.
If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc.
The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level.
Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving.
The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game.
Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave.
And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it.
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Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 13:50 Perceivere wrote:On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote:On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source. Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it.
Good point in that we’re seeing pure SC2 players bursting through these days. Well, by ‘these days’ I mean years ago.
IIRC you even have scenarios where parents absolutely loved SC1 and got their kids going in their formative years of SC2, Clem being one
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On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote:
If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc.
The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level.
Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving.
The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game.
Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave.
I disagree, while you arent wrong I think you undervalue the importance of 2 factors:
1.- The importance of new blood: If you look at the history of GSL 2010-2015 you can see what we now know where the top players of the time to be Royal Roaders, that is players that won the first GSL they qualified for, hell the undisputable king of WoL Mvp was defeated by one in his last GSL finals. Sure those who are left are the best but when was the last time we had new talent capable of beating them? Only a few in the EU scene in Clem and Reynor (who are hardy new players btw, the have been semi-pro/pro level for a few years now they are just old enought to compete now).
2.- Money truly matters, I do think a lot of retired pros like Inno or Zest would have stayed if they thought there was enough money in the scene to live off but thats just not the case anymore.
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On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair
You're being sarcastic, but that's how I view it.
Proleague collapsing means that I view subsequent tournaments as being of ever diminishing importance. There was a time when GSL winners being knocked down into Code A in the following season happened regularly enough that the difficulty of simply staying in Code S could not be overstated, but now there's neither enough players nor enough funding for Code A to exist. Iron sharpens iron, but much less so when the competitive pool becomes so shallow, and that's enough for me to draw a very distinct line in the sand.
As for Zerg, we had two versions of the game where a general overview of Starcraft 2 strategy would tell us that Zerg is the race that benefits most from being able to take faster expansions, from having larger maps, from having more open maps, and from the game being less "deathbally". Legacy of the Void was specifically designed so that we need to take faster expansions, so that the maps are generally larger, so that the maps are generally more open, and so that the game is significantly less "deathbally". Zerg has gone on to win more money than any other race in Legacy of the Void. This is going to read as balance whine, but I don't think it's a balance issue. No amount of tweaking unit stats is going to make a significant difference to core design flaws that result from Blizzard's decision to move to a 12 worker start and fewer minerals per base...
EDIT:
I really commend Miz for going out of his way to ignore things that are outside of the players' control in his analysis. It's the proper way of doing things if you're going to make such a statistics-heavy analysis of the situation. My view of things contains a lot more "feeling" and so becomes much more subjective (in what is already a very subjective space), but I don't "feel" that anyone only prominent in this era can ever be the GOAT because LotV is far too flawed...
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Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On June 10 2024 15:42 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair You're being sarcastic, but that's how I view it. Proleague collapsing means that the competitive value of subsequent tournaments is of ever diminishing importance. There was a time when GSL winners being knocked down into Code A in the following season happened regularly enough that the difficulty of simply staying in Code S could not be overstated, but now there's neither enough players nor funding for Code A to exist. It's enough for me to draw a very distinct line in the sand. As for Zerg, we had two versions of the game where a general overview of Starcraft 2 strategy would tell us that Zerg is the race that benefits most from being able to take faster expansions, from having larger maps, from having more open maps, and from the game being less "deathbally". Legacy of the Void made it so that we need to take faster expansions, the maps are generally larger, the maps are generally more open, and the game is significantly less "deathbally". Zerg has gone on to win more money than any other race in Legacy of the Void. I can't imagine why...
To a degree, although I think it’s somewhat overstated.
Outside of perhaps early WoL, where things very much were in flux, Code S has generally had a (relatively) stable cadre of names at the business end of the tournament.
You had more qualification mishaps, group exits by big tournament favourites for sure, but I think the decline at the other end, of ‘eyeballing it, how many do you think can realistically challenge for the title this season?’ was something of a noticeably slower decline.
Not that I dispute the overall observation of the gradual loss of depth, but it became easier to perpetually remain in Code S at a quicker rate than it did actually winning one.
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On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 08 2024 13:50 Perceivere wrote:On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote:On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source. Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it.
Maru won his first pro match in 2010. In 2015, he was a well-respected player but nobody in their right mind would call him the best, or anything close to that. He only really started to shine around 2018, incidentally, that's also the year when Serral started to win stuff, too. Serral himself had been on various teams for over 5 years by then. Rogue came to SC2 in 2012 yet his first notable achievements didn't happen until 2017.
Are you telling me those super talented, elite, goat-level players simply took so long to learn how to play? That doesn't seem like the most likely explanation to me, considering both in BW and SC2 the championship caliber players typically started winning tournaments within 1-2 years of winning their first pro matches. I can't even think of a single pro who took 5 years to get their first big trophy that would then go on to 'dominate' the game. It's the same in pretty much every other video game, too. The dudes who don't have it in them to win big after a couple years don't become an all-conquering maverick half a decade later; the best they get is a brief moment in the spotlight when everything falls into place for that one big tournament.
But apparently the dudes who won their first tourneys after basically every big name before them retired or went part-time and all the infrastructure that produced said big names bit the dust are the best to have ever touched this game? Ehhhhhh.
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SC2 now goes into its 15th year and a lot happened. For me the first 5 years were interesting because it was volatile and everchanging meta with a lot of players. But the game and the meta got more stable with LoTv (with exceptions ofc *swarm hosts*) and the game has reached its final form more or less. True there are less players and it's a pity. But the game itself got better and for me so did the remaining players.
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Northern Ireland25071 Posts
On June 10 2024 17:15 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote:On June 08 2024 13:50 Perceivere wrote:On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote:On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote:On June 07 2024 17:23 Drahkn wrote:
Serral has 2 issues for GOAT, he plays Zerg , and he only dominated when the PRO scene was dead Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source. Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it. Maru won his first pro match in 2010. In 2015, he was a well-respected player but nobody in their right mind would call him the best, or anything close to that. He only really started to shine around 2018, incidentally, that's also the year when Serral started to win stuff, too. Serral himself had been on various teams for over 5 years by then. Rogue came to SC2 in 2012 yet his first notable achievements didn't happen until 2017. Are you telling me those super talented, elite, goat-level players simply took so long to learn how to play? That doesn't seem like the most likely explanation to me, considering both in BW and SC2 the championship caliber players typically started winning tournaments within 1-2 years of winning their first pro matches. I can't even think of a single pro who took 5 years to get their first big trophy that would then go on to 'dominate' the game. It's the same in pretty much every other video game, too. The dudes who don't have it in them to win big after a couple years don't become an all-conquering maverick half a decade later; the best they get is a brief moment in the spotlight when everything falls into place for that one big tournament. But apparently the dudes who won their first tourneys after basically every big name before them retired or went part-time and all the infrastructure that produced said big names bit the dust are the best to have ever touched this game? Ehhhhhh.
Serral had obviously played a lot of the game, very talented and was picked up orgs, I don’t think he was actually a full time progamer for quite a while and as soon as he was he was posting pretty good results off the bat. It’s not like he was some jobbing pro for years prior to ‘ascending’
SC2 in general hasn’t really had its dominant players throughout, it was generally pretty cutthroat, the odd sensational stretch but generally one would be among a cadre of the elite and unable to massively gap the rest.
That’s definitely changed, for a variety of reasons and I think Serral and Maru would comfortably be nestled in that cohort if things had gone differently.
As it’s they’re pretty damn dominant now, but one can only beat what’s in front of you at the end of the day.
Part of the reason they are so ahead is they’ve kept their motivation and levels up. Whereas a player like Innovation who very much fits your exploding out of the gates to championship level couldn’t keep it up.
I don’t know other eSports scenes well enough, although I think there are a million examples in various regular sports of dominant players who hit their level from an early age and never let go, late bloomers and incredible talents who burned out before they were 25
Just a pity really that these are all hypotheticals in a gradually declining pro scene, rather than the likes of Serral going toe to toe with the cream of the Kespa crop of this age rather than those who’ve stuck around for a decade. Woulda been fun 
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If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list
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On June 11 2024 12:18 AlexGano wrote:
If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list
Jesse, what the eff are you talking about meme MVP is clearly in the top 10, behind Serral, Serral with a mustache, and Emperor of Finland, and Maru, Rogue, Innovation
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On June 11 2024 12:18 AlexGano wrote:
If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list
???
What Mvp achieved in a scene that was thriving is more impressive to me than anything anyone will achieve in a scene that is dying.
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On June 11 2024 15:10 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2024 12:18 AlexGano wrote:
If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list ??? What Mvp achieved in a scene that was thriving is more impressive to me than anything anyone will achieve in a scene that is dying.
They're both impressive. I don't believe that MVP if he had his golden years back that he would be able to make a dent in the current scene, but then I also don't think that Serral could dominate at all in the way that he does now, if he was playing back in the beginning. They're simply two different skill sets, it's strategy, understanding and innovation vs. execution and perfecting.
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EPT
