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Bennito_bh
15 Posts
Even Serral doesn't want to play Maru lategame, if game 2 of IEM grand finals is any indication of that. Don't get me wrong cause I agree with most of the sentiment in your post, but I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Just because Serral killed Maru early does not imply he's scared of his opponent's late-game. All we can really conclude from the results is that Serral saw a kill timing, went for it, and was successful on multiple occasions. | ||
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Bennito_bh
15 Posts
ESL just wanted to dunk on Miz. It's pretty pathetic for an organisation backed by Apollo should apologise. An apollogy, if you will.  I don't think Apollo is specifically to blame. I just wanted to make a pun... The fact that this comment hasn't resulted in a ban just goes to show how trash TLnet's moderation has become. But go ahead and ban me instead for calling you out - I won't be missing anything. User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 08 2024 11:41 Bennito_bh wrote: Don't get me wrong cause I agree with most of the sentiment in your post, but I don't think this conclusion is warranted. Just because Serral killed Maru early does not imply he's scared of his opponent's late-game. All we can really conclude from the results is that Serral saw a kill timing, went for it, and was successful on multiple occasions. I didn't mean that he's scared. I meant that he doesn't want to have to work like a possessed demon for 20-30 minutes trying to win a terran-favored lategame. Maru just turtles up, mules, scans, and pewpews with his ghosts, while Serral multitasks like his brain is on fire trying to control 6-7 different control groups attacking and defending, while macroing and re-spreading creep. It looks extremely taxing for a zerg to do what Serral does at his nutty APM, even if he pulls it off. People watch and think how impressive it is, while I'm wondering to myself, "what kind of stamina does a player need to do this insane shit game after game?" | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 07 2024 19:31 Ciaus237 wrote: There is a nontrivial minority of Starcraft fans who would only ever allow a Terran to be their GOAT candidate. Having been around since late WoL, it feels like the "Terran is the true skill race" crowd have thinned a bit / got quieter, but certainly haven't gone away. I think this has mostly to do with the fact that Terran is the most micro-intensive race. When you see excellent terran micro, the crowd goes oooh and aaah. It's a crowd-pleasing race, and it gives the impression that terran is most skilled. What the crowd doesn't see is that the impressive things zergs do aren't nearly as visually flashy while still just as impressive. Except for Clem, I haven't seen a Terran who multitasks like Serral or Reynor, bouncing from screen to screen like a pinball. Their FPVs are nauseating. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2570 Posts
On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote: Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair  I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 08 2024 13:09 Salazarz wrote: I don't know about the Zerg part, but I don't see anything particularly controversial about your second statement tbh. That's the difference between being a 'greatest of all time' and 'best of the rest', and it is a significant difference. That is of course if you agree that overall level of competition declined after 2016. After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil248 Posts
On June 08 2024 13:50 Perceivere wrote: After 2016, as in the era where Serral exists, Reynor who won IEM and Gamers8 exists, and Clem who had a DH win and several regional wins at the expense of the best player exists...is somehow weaker than an era that was bloated with a bunch of Code A players, Code B players, and western players who weren't even on par with Snute, except Neeb and maybe Scarlett. Please. Slightly weaker in Korea, sure. For the entire world, it got much more competitive. It's not like any of those Code A players would ever get a chance to qualify for the globals to threaten Serral's reign, anyway. Even a large chunk of current Code S players today either routinely fail to qualify for globals, or would only be fodder for the top players. Only the money has significantly changed, which didn't really dip until 2021, and it only largely affected the motivation of players who are around the peripheral of the top10, who wouldn't threaten Serral regardless of money. The top players continued to practice hard and improve, because winning the world championship is still very lucrative, and prestigious—hello, Oliveira. Lately, the scene had also received a large injection of money from a certain controversial source. Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23230 Posts
On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote: Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it. Good point in that we’re seeing pure SC2 players bursting through these days. Well, by ‘these days’ I mean years ago. IIRC you even have scenarios where parents absolutely loved SC1 and got their kids going in their formative years of SC2, Clem being one | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2623 Posts
On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote: If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. I disagree, while you arent wrong I think you undervalue the importance of 2 factors: 1.- The importance of new blood: If you look at the history of GSL 2010-2015 you can see what we now know where the top players of the time to be Royal Roaders, that is players that won the first GSL they qualified for, hell the undisputable king of WoL Mvp was defeated by one in his last GSL finals. Sure those who are left are the best but when was the last time we had new talent capable of beating them? Only a few in the EU scene in Clem and Reynor (who are hardy new players btw, the have been semi-pro/pro level for a few years now they are just old enought to compete now). 2.- Money truly matters, I do think a lot of retired pros like Inno or Zest would have stayed if they thought there was enough money in the scene to live off but thats just not the case anymore. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom792 Posts
On June 07 2024 17:55 Harris1st wrote: Meaning a GOAT can never be a Zerg and never be anyone playing from 2016 onwards? Got it! Seems reasonable and fair You're being sarcastic, but that's how I view it. Proleague collapsing means that I view subsequent tournaments as being of ever diminishing importance. There was a time when GSL winners being knocked down into Code A in the following season happened regularly enough that the difficulty of simply staying in Code S could not be overstated, but now there's neither enough players nor enough funding for Code A to exist. Iron sharpens iron, but much less so when the competitive pool becomes so shallow, and that's enough for me to draw a very distinct line in the sand. As for Zerg, we had two versions of the game where a general overview of Starcraft 2 strategy would tell us that Zerg is the race that benefits most from being able to take faster expansions, from having larger maps, from having more open maps, and from the game being less "deathbally". Legacy of the Void was specifically designed so that we need to take faster expansions, so that the maps are generally larger, so that the maps are generally more open, and so that the game is significantly less "deathbally". Zerg has gone on to win more money than any other race in Legacy of the Void. This is going to read as balance whine, but I don't think it's a balance issue. No amount of tweaking unit stats is going to make a significant difference to core design flaws that result from Blizzard's decision to move to a 12 worker start and fewer minerals per base...  EDIT: I really commend Miz for going out of his way to ignore things that are outside of the players' control in his analysis. It's the proper way of doing things if you're going to make such a statistics-heavy analysis of the situation. My view of things contains a lot more "feeling" and so becomes much more subjective (in what is already a very subjective space), but I don't "feel" that anyone only prominent in this era can ever be the GOAT because LotV is far too flawed... | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23230 Posts
On June 10 2024 15:42 MJG wrote: You're being sarcastic, but that's how I view it. Proleague collapsing means that the competitive value of subsequent tournaments is of ever diminishing importance. There was a time when GSL winners being knocked down into Code A in the following season happened regularly enough that the difficulty of simply staying in Code S could not be overstated, but now there's neither enough players nor funding for Code A to exist. It's enough for me to draw a very distinct line in the sand. As for Zerg, we had two versions of the game where a general overview of Starcraft 2 strategy would tell us that Zerg is the race that benefits most from being able to take faster expansions, from having larger maps, from having more open maps, and from the game being less "deathbally". Legacy of the Void made it so that we need to take faster expansions, the maps are generally larger, the maps are generally more open, and the game is significantly less "deathbally". Zerg has gone on to win more money than any other race in Legacy of the Void. I can't imagine why... To a degree, although I think it’s somewhat overstated. Outside of perhaps early WoL, where things very much were in flux, Code S has generally had a (relatively) stable cadre of names at the business end of the tournament. You had more qualification mishaps, group exits by big tournament favourites for sure, but I think the decline at the other end, of ‘eyeballing it, how many do you think can realistically challenge for the title this season?’ was something of a noticeably slower decline. Not that I dispute the overall observation of the gradual loss of depth, but it became easier to perpetually remain in Code S at a quicker rate than it did actually winning one. | ||
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Salazarz
Korea (South)2570 Posts
On June 10 2024 04:25 Locutos wrote: Exatly. Does anyone think that the Maru of 2015 plays better than the Maru nowadays? I think people mess a little bit with the causality of things. If other top players had had the same success (aka skill) as Maru, they would have continued playing. If they left, its because it got harder for them. Who kept on, kept on because they were either - hopeful to win or actually winning, like Maru, Rogue, sOs etc. The creme de la creme stayed. Because they were that good. And a very few talented prodigys appeared in the scene, in a championship contender level. Back in 2014, 15, people who entered in the fray when SCII came up started realizing that, even if they practiced a lot, they wouldnt thrive. So eventually the Code A, and low Code S semi and full professionals started leaving. The strongest remained. And by that, i mean the true strongest OF STARCRAFT II. Not the ones who had spent 5 or 10+ years playing another game (like BW or WC 3). Which means, those who where young enough, like Serral, Maru or even HeroMarine to truly grow up inside the game. Maru is the strongest korean SCII player, so far, who has lived. Anyone who would have been his equal or better simply wouldnt have had reason to leave. And Serral is better than Maru. Has been since 2018, with ample data to show for it. Maru won his first pro match in 2010. In 2015, he was a well-respected player but nobody in their right mind would call him the best, or anything close to that. He only really started to shine around 2018, incidentally, that's also the year when Serral started to win stuff, too. Serral himself had been on various teams for over 5 years by then. Rogue came to SC2 in 2012 yet his first notable achievements didn't happen until 2017. Are you telling me those super talented, elite, goat-level players simply took so long to learn how to play? That doesn't seem like the most likely explanation to me, considering both in BW and SC2 the championship caliber players typically started winning tournaments within 1-2 years of winning their first pro matches. I can't even think of a single pro who took 5 years to get their first big trophy that would then go on to 'dominate' the game. It's the same in pretty much every other video game, too. The dudes who don't have it in them to win big after a couple years don't become an all-conquering maverick half a decade later; the best they get is a brief moment in the spotlight when everything falls into place for that one big tournament. But apparently the dudes who won their first tourneys after basically every big name before them retired or went part-time and all the infrastructure that produced said big names bit the dust are the best to have ever touched this game? Ehhhhhh. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6640 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23230 Posts
On June 10 2024 17:15 Salazarz wrote: Maru won his first pro match in 2010. In 2015, he was a well-respected player but nobody in their right mind would call him the best, or anything close to that. He only really started to shine around 2018, incidentally, that's also the year when Serral started to win stuff, too. Serral himself had been on various teams for over 5 years by then. Rogue came to SC2 in 2012 yet his first notable achievements didn't happen until 2017. Are you telling me those super talented, elite, goat-level players simply took so long to learn how to play? That doesn't seem like the most likely explanation to me, considering both in BW and SC2 the championship caliber players typically started winning tournaments within 1-2 years of winning their first pro matches. I can't even think of a single pro who took 5 years to get their first big trophy that would then go on to 'dominate' the game. It's the same in pretty much every other video game, too. The dudes who don't have it in them to win big after a couple years don't become an all-conquering maverick half a decade later; the best they get is a brief moment in the spotlight when everything falls into place for that one big tournament. But apparently the dudes who won their first tourneys after basically every big name before them retired or went part-time and all the infrastructure that produced said big names bit the dust are the best to have ever touched this game? Ehhhhhh. Serral had obviously played a lot of the game, very talented and was picked up orgs, I don’t think he was actually a full time progamer for quite a while and as soon as he was he was posting pretty good results off the bat. It’s not like he was some jobbing pro for years prior to ‘ascending’ SC2 in general hasn’t really had its dominant players throughout, it was generally pretty cutthroat, the odd sensational stretch but generally one would be among a cadre of the elite and unable to massively gap the rest. That’s definitely changed, for a variety of reasons and I think Serral and Maru would comfortably be nestled in that cohort if things had gone differently. As it’s they’re pretty damn dominant now, but one can only beat what’s in front of you at the end of the day. Part of the reason they are so ahead is they’ve kept their motivation and levels up. Whereas a player like Innovation who very much fits your exploding out of the gates to championship level couldn’t keep it up. I don’t know other eSports scenes well enough, although I think there are a million examples in various regular sports of dominant players who hit their level from an early age and never let go, late bloomers and incredible talents who burned out before they were 25 Just a pity really that these are all hypotheticals in a gradually declining pro scene, rather than the likes of Serral going toe to toe with the cream of the Kespa crop of this age rather than those who’ve stuck around for a decade. Woulda been fun  | ||
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AlexGano
24 Posts
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Husyelt
United States763 Posts
On June 11 2024 12:18 AlexGano wrote: If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list Jesse, what the eff are you talking about meme MVP is clearly in the top 10, behind Serral, Serral with a mustache, and Emperor of Finland, and Maru, Rogue, Innovation | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom792 Posts
On June 11 2024 12:18 AlexGano wrote: If people sees "all time" as so important, then we should kick mvp out of the top 10 list ??? What Mvp achieved in a scene that was thriving is more impressive to me than anything anyone will achieve in a scene that is dying. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3306 Posts
On June 11 2024 15:10 MJG wrote: ??? What Mvp achieved in a scene that was thriving is more impressive to me than anything anyone will achieve in a scene that is dying. They're both impressive. I don't believe that MVP if he had his golden years back that he would be able to make a dent in the current scene, but then I also don't think that Serral could dominate at all in the way that he does now, if he was playing back in the beginning. They're simply two different skill sets, it's strategy, understanding and innovation vs. execution and perfecting. | ||
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