EPTSerral wins ESL Masters Spring/Dallas 2024 - Page 2
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rwala
338 Posts
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THERIDDLER
Canada131 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1939 Posts
On June 03 2024 22:37 Poopi wrote: Veni, vidi, vici for Serral, the #2 GOAT of StarCraft 2 behind #1 Maru  Fuck, we already used that title... https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/531006-veni-vidi-vici-the-international-era-part-1 Thankfully, "This is an article about Serral" is still available. | ||
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LukaMav
28 Posts
On June 03 2024 22:37 Poopi wrote: Veni, vidi, vici for Serral, the #2 GOAT of StarCraft 2 behind #1 Maru True. Maru the Goat on TL forum The community consensus is Serral goat. But to the general population, Maru sits comfortable at #3 | ||
Waxangel
United States33648 Posts
On June 03 2024 23:13 Jeremy_Sc2 wrote: Since we are in a pedantic loop we are talking about 10 international wins (as is the definition of ESL). The China results while there is a valid arguement for being comparable is not technically an international event. He has 7 national titles, and 4 international ones. They are counting international wins, as the title of the trophy and their response on Twitter indicates. There is no need for an asterix in the article because Oli has not met that threshold yet. I think Wax just forgot it was China region before it became the Asia region. There's definitely some pedantry here but I think it's important. National/continental/international haven't been relevant competitive sub-divisions in top tier StarCraft II since WCS 2012, which was held in an Olympics style. When the modern WCS Challenger/EPT Regional systems were set in 2017, China was given its own regional subdivision for practical reasons (the business relationship with NetEase being a big part), not because country-level divisions still meant anything in StarCraft II. As far SC2 fans have been concerned, the only WCS/EPT divisions that have mattered from 2017 onward have been 'regionals/challenger' and 'main event.' Honestly, I'm inclined to think it was a dumb mistake from ESL where they simply forgot about Oliveira's regional titles—they've followed the long standing tradition of presenting the various regionals as somewhat coequal, and it's weird for them to abruptly make such an explicit distinction (while prize money and # of seeds differ, all the regions get the same broadcast presentation and general promotion). If it was intentional, then it's an incredibly cynical retrofitting/invention of a previously non-existent standard ('international EPT tournament') for the sake of giving Serral a trophy. [PS: This is also why every article I edit never says MVP won "4 GSLs" outright, and will have some comment/clarification about how GomTV arbitrarily decided the 2011 GSL World Championship is equal to Code S, even though it's ended up being inconsistent with the rest of GSL history.] | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 04 2024 00:36 THERIDDLER wrote: Poor maru, unlike his opposition, he never managed to get any of his buddies onto the council Yeah, if only he could've gotten all his terran practice partners in the councils, he would've been able to collect even more GSLs. Instead, he has to settle for just 8 for now. Poor, poor Maru...  Oh, and maybe he would've gotten a map off of Serral as well.  | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria925 Posts
On June 04 2024 00:36 THERIDDLER wrote: Poor maru, unlike his opposition, he never managed to get any of his buddies onto the council Ah yes, Serral, the GOAT won because of race when Maru literally just 3-1’ed the top Korean Z (and #2 in the world by almost all metrics behind Serral). Good one | ||
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ChApFoU
France2984 Posts
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M3t4PhYzX
Poland4267 Posts
expected  | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
However, it is also an example of gate keeping who is worthy to be awarded for what not. You, of course, see the dilemma, with your site and all. IT IS NOT LIKE THE TROPHY WENT TO A WRONG ADDRESS, GOD DAMN SAKE! F! | ||
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johnnyh123
124 Posts
Uninspiring finals for sure. Maru fumbling hard at these EU/NA events is just depressing, hoping to see him bring his full game to Riyadh. I wonder if this has to do with the 14 hours jet lags, it usually takes about a week to fix. He should probably look into traveling to the competition site a lot earlier. But I bet organizer wouldn't pay for the expenses. Oliveira put in a great show, always enjoyed his victory celebration/emotions. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On June 04 2024 01:56 Waxangel wrote: There's definitely some pedantry here but I think it's important. National/continental/international haven't been relevant competitive sub-divisions in top tier StarCraft II since WCS 2012, which was held in an Olympics style. When the modern WCS Challenger/EPT Regional systems were set in 2017, China was given its own regional subdivision for practical reasons (the business relationship with NetEase being a big part), not because country-level divisions still meant anything in StarCraft II. As far SC2 fans have been concerned, the only WCS/EPT divisions that have mattered from 2017 onward have been 'regionals/challenger' and 'main event.' Honestly, I'm inclined to think it was a dumb mistake from ESL where they simply forgot about Oliveira's regional titles—they've followed the long standing tradition of presenting the various regionals as somewhat coequal, and it's weird for them to abruptly make such an explicit distinction (while prize money and # of seeds differ, all the regions get the same broadcast presentation and general promotion). If it was intentional, then it's an incredibly cynical retrofitting/invention of a previously non-existent standard ('international EPT tournament') for the sake of giving Serral a trophy. [PS: This is also why every article I edit never says MVP won "4 GSLs" outright, and will have some comment/clarification about how GomTV arbitrarily decided the 2011 GSL World Championship is equal to Code S, even though it's ended up being inconsistent with the rest of GSL history.] You should probably ask Oliveira if he cares, if you can connect with him. Otherwise, I don't see the point of being so dramatic about it. It's just a milestone marker, anyway. There's no prize money behind it, and it's not like the award was announced years ahead of time. Just arbitrated/false glory. The WBC (a boxing sanction body) also had an arbitrary achievement award, called the diamond belt, and a couple boxers had rejected it when offered to them. To them, the only belts that mattered were belts that they had fought specifically to attain. (edit: Well, the critical difference is that the WBC also charged the boxers a fee to keep the lame belt. I guess in Serral's case, there'd be no reason to refuse the milestone trophy.) Also, as much as I'm fully in the camp of Serral being the GOAT, I disapprove of the organization declaring it officially when they handed him that trophy. That title should be only within the minds and hearts of fans, not adjudicated by an authority, especially since they hadn't declared their criteria for that title. They didn't even bother to make a short speech, delineating each of every win he took to earn it. Makes the title seem cheap and tacky, imo, and the occasion unprofessional. If you're going to officially declare someone the GOAT, you'd better damn well back it up with at least a 2 minute-minimum speech. Yikes. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On June 04 2024 01:56 Waxangel wrote: There's definitely some pedantry here but I think it's important. National/continental/international haven't been relevant competitive sub-divisions in top tier StarCraft II since WCS 2012, which was held in an Olympics style. When the modern WCS Challenger/EPT Regional systems were set in 2017, China was given its own regional subdivision for practical reasons (the business relationship with NetEase being a big part), not because country-level divisions still meant anything in StarCraft II. As far SC2 fans have been concerned, the only WCS/EPT divisions that have mattered from 2017 onward have been 'regionals/challenger' and 'main event.' Honestly, I'm inclined to think it was a dumb mistake from ESL where they simply forgot about Oliveira's regional titles—they've followed the long standing tradition of presenting the various regionals as somewhat coequal, and it's weird for them to abruptly make such an explicit distinction (while prize money and # of seeds differ, all the regions get the same broadcast presentation and general promotion). If it was intentional, then it's an incredibly cynical retrofitting/invention of a previously non-existent standard ('international EPT tournament') for the sake of giving Serral a trophy. [PS: This is also why every article I edit never says MVP won "4 GSLs" outright, and will have some comment/clarification about how GomTV arbitrarily decided the 2011 GSL World Championship is equal to Code S, even though it's ended up being inconsistent with the rest of GSL history.] Has no one thought that ESL simply took Liquipedia's premier classification into consideration? EU regionals are considered Premier tier - alongside GSL, while all the other regionals are Major tier. It makes sense honestly. EU is way higher level than Asian regional. | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On June 04 2024 07:20 Perceivere wrote: You should probably ask Oliveira if he cares, if you can connect with him. Otherwise, I don't see the point of being so dramatic about it. It's just a milestone marker, anyway. There's no prize money behind it, and it's not like the award was announced years ahead of time. Just arbitrated/false glory. The WBC (a boxing sanction body) also had an arbitrary achievement award, called the diamond belt, and a couple boxers had rejected it when offered to them. To them, the only belts that mattered were belts that they had fought specifically to attain. (edit: Well, the critical difference is that the WBC also charged the boxers a fee to keep the lame belt. I guess in Serral's case, there'd be no reason to refuse the milestone trophy.) Also, as much as I'm fully in the camp of Serral being the GOAT, I disapprove of the organization declaring it officially when they handed him that trophy. That title should be only within the minds and hearts of fans, not adjudicated by an authority, especially since they hadn't declared their criteria for that title. They didn't even bother to make a short speech, delineating each of every win he took to earn it. Makes the title seem cheap and tacky, imo, and the occasion unprofessional. If you're going to officially declare someone the GOAT, you'd better damn well back it up with at least a 2 minute-minimum speech. Yikes. Agree 100%. Although said trophy makes the scene buzz and scream. Which is gud. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33648 Posts
On June 04 2024 07:55 Locutos wrote: Has no one thought that ESL simply took Liquipedia's premier classification into consideration? EU regionals are considered Premier tier - alongside GSL, while all the other regionals are Major tier. It makes sense honestly. EU is way higher level than Asian regional. that's prolly how they researched it, but not the way they present it externally because A) Liquipedia is not a partner org with EPT, B) Liquipedia users/editors actively dislike LP distinctions being used for professional-level decisions. | ||
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Waxangel
United States33648 Posts
On June 04 2024 07:20 Perceivere wrote: You should probably ask Oliveira if he cares, if you can connect with him. Otherwise, I don't see the point of being so dramatic about it. It's just a milestone marker, anyway. There's no prize money behind it, and it's not like the award was announced years ahead of time. Just arbitrated/false glory. The WBC (a boxing sanction body) also had an arbitrary achievement award, called the diamond belt, and a couple boxers had rejected it when offered to them. To them, the only belts that mattered were belts that they had fought specifically to attain. (edit: Well, the critical difference is that the WBC also charged the boxers a fee to keep the lame belt. I guess in Serral's case, there'd be no reason to refuse the milestone trophy.) Also, as much as I'm fully in the camp of Serral being the GOAT, I disapprove of the organization declaring it officially when they handed him that trophy. That title should be only within the minds and hearts of fans, not adjudicated by an authority, especially since they hadn't declared their criteria for that title. They didn't even bother to make a short speech, delineating each of every win he took to earn it. Makes the title seem cheap and tacky, imo, and the occasion unprofessional. If you're going to officially declare someone the GOAT, you'd better damn well back it up with at least a 2 minute-minimum speech. Yikes. No one would have been mad about some kind of generic GJ Serral lifetime achievement award trophy, and I don't mind the general concept of giving him a special trophy. But someone has to be the rules lawyer because otherwise people and orgs will just arbitrarily rewrite history and narratives to their convenience. And I think it's pretty self-evident why we should get the history RIGHT. In any case, there's an easy win-win fix of giving fan-favorite Oliveira his own E10L trophy at Riyadh  | ||
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bagstone
8 Posts
And I think it's pretty self-evident why we should get the history RIGHT. Is it self-evident? Maybe I'm just too ignorant but to me it isn't, so could you spell it out for someone stupid like me? Views change every day in all GOAT debates about what counts as what, and not just talking about the TL GOAT list vs Reddit, can just look at the debate that Artosis and Feardragon are having right now on the platform formerly known as Twitter. And no one is "re-writing" history, it is all just different interpretations. The only thing that is written in stone is what the official world championship was in any given year, and even here aforementioned people add their own interpretations by adding or removing certain Katowice tournaments willy-nilly ("because it was online", "but it was during COVID", "there was another tournament that season that was WC", and so on). I also don't understand your point before - "Liquipedia users/editors actively dislike LP distinctions being used for professional-level decisions". First of all, why do they dislike this; secondly, when you say "actively" I guess there's some communication that documents that; and thirdly, does ESL care about what a TL user thinks? If they think the categorisation makes sense, why not use it? Maybe they just didn't want to spell it out on stage to put too much emphasis on TL. It reminds me of transfermarkt.de in football, which is a site where random casual football fans estimate players' value, and obviously those shouldn't be used in professional contracts involving triple digit million valuations. But, there's plenty of evidence that it is having an impact and is being used, albeit no one admits it officially and publically, but there's plenty of leaks. As much as we're all fanboying over Oliveira this weekend, if you want to give him a E10L trophy there's probably another one due for other regions and then it becomes really just trophy-madness. It was quite clear that they just wanted to take their cheeky jab at the debate that's been going on nonstop between all the scene's big figures for half a year now. | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria925 Posts
On June 03 2024 22:33 ejozl wrote: Would he even have won had he met Oliveira? Maru cannot win on international soil, it's a curse (bad mentality). I felt rly bad for herO beating Clem 3-0 and then only having 15 minutes before the next games started against Maru, and he didn't even know that he would face him. This is pretty bullshit, but perhaps he wanted as small a break as possible, who knows. A Serral vs. herO finals would've been much, much better, though I do like ever establishing storylines, such as Maru not winning abroad, Serral dumping on Maru, Serral always winning. Had Oliveira beat Maru that would've probably been even greater tho  I don't think this finals was as onesided, actually. In this one Serral did not want to find out what happens late game, he would probably lose there, but still Maru was dumbfounded, not catching on to what was happening. In Katowice Serral beat him vs. Mech, vs. Bio, vs. late game and with a cheese, it doesn't get more dominant than that. That said Maru reaching the finals everytime is at this point more likely than even Zerg winning, so the consistency is out of this world. The turn around time for herO before Maru was fast, but it wasn’t 15 minutes and he did know he was playing Maru. The winner of that portion of the bracket knew they were slotting into the spot that was against Maru from the night before once day 1 ended. A few of the Koreans (from the first quadrant) even made comments about the difficulty of the knockout bracket and how they get slotted into Maru for the Playoffs if they win. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27111 Posts
On June 04 2024 00:51 LukaMav wrote: True. Maru the Goat on TL forum The community consensus is Serral goat. But to the general population, Maru sits comfortable at #3 3 behind who? :S | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
Mvp and Innovation. Obviously.  (I assume they mean Rogue as #2). | ||
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