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WombaT
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On June 05 2024 15:31 MJG wrote: Mvp and Innovation. Obviously.  (I assume they mean Rogue as #2). I’m not a Rogue anti-fan by any means but I might actually place Inno there myself. That first incarnation of the machine was a terrifying prospect, but it’s quite difficult to justify that via objective metrics | ||
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SiarX
133 Posts
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
On June 05 2024 18:08 SiarX wrote: How Rogue is better than Maru? I thought it is widely accepted that Maru is #2. I don't think it's widely accepted that Maru is #2. It's widely accepted that Maru and Serral are #1 and #2 in some order though. | ||
Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
On June 05 2024 18:55 MJG wrote: I don't think it's widely accepted that Maru is #2. It's widely accepted that Maru and Serral are #1 and #2 in some order though. Right now? Or in 2018? Cause right now. On this day in the year 2024. Anybody who thinks maru is better than serral, after going a combined 0-8 in grand finals, needs to get their head checked. Again, I am talking about the present time, and not about the past ten years. | ||
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MJG
United Kingdom1451 Posts
On June 05 2024 19:00 Branch.AUT wrote: Right now? Or in 2018? Cause right now. On this day in the year 2024. Anybody who thinks maru is better than serral, after going a combined 0-8 in grand finals, needs to get their head checked. Again, I am talking about the present time, and not about the past ten years. I assumed they were referring to the GOAT debate, since that's what the original quote chain leads back to. There is a difference between Greatest of All Time and Greatest Right This Second. Serral is probably GRTS but I don't think that makes him GOAT. It's a shame that GRTS doesn't quite have the same ring to it... ... and I don't have a horse in the Maru/Serral debate. Legacy of the Void is kind of a joke to me. | ||
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Branch.AUT
Austria853 Posts
On June 05 2024 19:31 MJG wrote: I assumed they were referring to the GOAT debate, since that's what the original quote chain leads back to. There is a difference between Greatest of All Time and Greatest Right This Second. Serral is probably GRTS but I don't think that makes him GOAT. It's a shame that GRTS doesn't quite have the same ring to it... ... and I don't have a horse in the Maru/Serral debate. Legacy of the Void is kind of a joke to me. I understand the sentiment. At this point though, the articles are 3 months old, and yesterdays news. I no longer consider them to be worthy of discussing. It was fun while it lasted. The rage-bait has run its course. | ||
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weyoun2
1 Post
On June 05 2024 19:00 Branch.AUT wrote: Right now? Or in 2018? Cause right now. On this day in the year 2024. Anybody who thinks maru is better than serral, after going a combined 0-8 in grand finals, needs to get their head checked. Again, I am talking about the present time, and not about the past ten years. i was banned for making a much more harmless post i sayd "maybe naive" can someone explain to me why i was banned for my thread , and this thread is fine ? my thread is on maru#nr 1 page 34 from weyoun User was banned for this post. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On June 05 2024 18:08 SiarX wrote: How Rogue is better than Maru? I thought it is widely accepted that Maru is #2. Apparently Rogue has 3 wc... Yes, kato 2020 and 2018 (?????) are wc We didn't know back then but there were two wc per years within sc2, that wasn't the case until Rogue won 2020 tho Never anyone claimed Ace, Yoda, Zest or soO were world champ when they won it but here we are. I suppose only the katowice won by Rogue are wc materials. Truly the most overrated player by the community. As for Maru, his influence over the meta and the scene for over 10 years is unmatched, 11 years as one of the 3 best players of his race, that's something. It's just sad he is a chicken in inter tournament. But it's still not ridiculous to consider him the goat : longevity, adaptability, domination, aside from his performance on no korean tourney and some mental block, he has all it takes. | ||
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Perceivere
133 Posts
On June 06 2024 02:11 stilt wrote: Apparently Rogue has 3 wc... Yes, kato 2020 and 2018 (?????) are wc We didn't know back then but there were two wc per years within sc2, that wasn't the case until Rogue won 2020 tho Never anyone claimed Ace, Yoda, Zest or soO were world champ when they won it but here we are. I suppose only the katowice won by Rogue are wc materials. Truly the most overrated player by the community. As for Maru, his influence over the meta and the scene for over 10 years is unmatched, 11 years as one of the 3 best players of his race, that's something. It's just sad he is a chicken in inter tournament. But it's still not ridiculous to consider him the goat : longevity, adaptability, domination, aside from his performance on no korean tourney and some mental block, he has all it takes. Can someone please explain to me why this supposed "mental block" thing only flips on when he's outside of Korea? Is it the air? The food? Or, the age old excuse: jetlag? What is it about foreign lands that triggers this syndrome that Maru's fans keep attributing to him? Please don't tell me it's homesickness. Superstition abounds when rationality dies. On "adaptability," how well did he adapt to his supposed "mental block" syndrome? Or, his Serral syndrome? | ||
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Locutos
Brazil273 Posts
On June 05 2024 18:55 MJG wrote: I don't think it's widely accepted that Maru is #2. It's widely accepted that Maru and Serral are #1 and #2 in some order though. It is widely accepted that Serral > Maru | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On June 06 2024 03:28 Perceivere wrote: Can someone please explain to me why this supposed "mental block" thing only flips on when he's outside of Korea? Is it the air? The food? Or, the age old excuse: jetlag? What is it about foreign lands that triggers this syndrome that Maru's fans keep attributing to him? Please don't tell me it's homesickness. Superstition abounds when rationality dies. On "adaptability," how well did he adapt to his supposed "mental block" syndrome? Or, his Serral syndrome? Can't believe you think I am maru fanboy when I call him a chicken while debunking rogue's favorable narrative. Anyway, to answer you : - by adaptability, I mean his changement of playstyle, at first Maru was like Clem : a young terran playing with relentless agression, insane multitask, flashy micro and so on and then as he got older, his playstyle evolved into a slower positional style and that change is commandable. - and he is obviously choking, his match against oliveira was shameful, the normal guy played superb, that's true but it's also true maru choked against a somewhat easy opponent. And his last serie against serral was straight up embarassing. It's pretty obvious he didn't play at his normal level, the game on ghost river is so freaking terrible. I have no idea how you can interpret the choking part as a defense for Maru, if anything, it's actually pretty bad for a "goat". | ||
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Tommy131313
Germany157 Posts
If you look at all Maru-Serral matches say for the last 3 years, Maru has a map score of 7-29 offline/online (without minor cups). You can search for random explanations for this vast difference, or you can apply ockham's razor and assume, Serral's just better than Maru in the game, at least since 3 years (prolly much longer). And if you just look at the last 3 major international playoffs, it's even worse for Maru... 0-11 mapscore. So I don't believe there has to be a GOAT debate anymore, apart from Korean (or GSL) bias. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany1381 Posts
On June 06 2024 06:24 Tommy131313 wrote: imho you can't seriously blame jetlag for Maru to (nearly) always lose against Serral. In the case of Dallas, it's almost the same time to fly for both of them, approx. 12 hours. I want to say there has been remarkable little excuses from the Maru-fans after Dallas. If you go by some comments, Katowice apparently was the most unfair tournament of all time, with jetlag for Maru, bracket-manipulation, imbalance, an unfair mapool, timetables in favor of Serral, bad qualification splits and much so more. Sure, some of it was trolling, but there was this general sentiment from the Maru-fans. Now, I barely see any stupid excuses. Most Maru-fans, even the hardcore fans, just acknowledged that Serral won by being the better player and that Maru needs to change up something at EWC to make it competitive between the two - because right now Serral clearly has his number. | ||
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Perceivere
133 Posts
On June 06 2024 06:03 stilt wrote: Can't believe you think I am maru fanboy when I call him a chicken while debunking rogue's favorable narrative. Anyway, to answer you : - by adaptability, I mean his changement of playstyle, at first Maru was like Clem : a young terran playing with relentless agression, insane multitask, flashy micro and so on and then as he got older, his playstyle evolved into a slower positional style and that change is commandable. - and he is obviously choking, his match against oliveira was shameful, the normal guy played superb, that's true but it's also true maru choked against a somewhat easy opponent. And his last serie against serral was straight up embarassing. It's pretty obvious he didn't play at his normal level, the game on ghost river is so freaking terrible. I have no idea how you can interpret the choking part as a defense for Maru, if anything, it's actually pretty bad for a "goat". I did not call you a "fanboy," nor did I even imply it. The fact that you inferred my comment that way is quite indicative of your mentality. That said, there are indeed a lot of his fanboys who use this assertion of "choking" to suggest his normal ability of play is actually much higher than is shown. On the adaptability point, you still haven't answered my question. Why did he not adapt to his supposed mental weakness that seems to magically appear only when he's competing abroad, according to the people who label him a "choke artist"? Why does he suddenly choke in the grand finals, as opposed to earlier on? To date, when Maru loses abroad, he had placed, on average, higher if not much higher than any other Korean, except Rogue. Dark may have an argument, but not prize money-wise. That $1m+ that Maru earned certainly did not only come from Korean tournaments. Most of it is from tournaments abroad. That's a fact. Those facts suggest Maru had actually done extremely well for himself abroad. You and others simply refuse to acknowledge it for whatever reason, or perhaps have too high an expectation for him, that is far beyond his true ability. Oliveira may have been the weaker player, but there were times when Serral lost 0/1-3/4 to Maru, Reynor, Clem, Rogue, Dark, etc... and around those periods, Serral had by far the better winrates (vs Koreans). It's almost as if players have ups and downs, and by definition they can't always perform at their peak, or even their average. By definition, they have to under-perform, or "choke," at some point. Some of you are expecting Maru's average/expected level to be invincible, when in reality that may only be his peak level. The series at IEM vs Serral, Maru gave Serral a hard fight in game 2. Serral got him build-wise a couple games, and in his final game, it seemed Maru truly just choked. That's normal. All players fluctuate around their average. The crazy thing is when other players perform beneath their average, they don't receive the excuse/insult of "choke artist." When the second best player in the world does it, some of his own fans are primarily the ones to bandy it. Some of Maru's fans truly are the least supportive, most annoying kind, probably even to him. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
End of the day he is still outperforming everyone else, which tends to be understated a bit. I do wonder if it’s some kind of mental block though. The one set where Maru really brought his A game was the one on Radushet [sic?] where Serral had a pretty big map advantage to begin with. If Maru brought that level more often there’s no way he’s getting swept twice in a row, although ofc doesn’t necessarily mean he reverses the result. I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that Maru figured ‘I’m fucked this map anyway’ and treated it as a free hit, and going in pessimistic relaxed him a bit to play his best game. | ||
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Perceivere
133 Posts
On June 06 2024 08:48 WombaT wrote: Choke is unfair IMO, equally I mean Maru hasn’t stepped up either and dug really deep in those big finals in recent times. End of the day he is still outperforming everyone else, which tends to be understated a bit. I do wonder if it’s some kind of mental block though. The one set where Maru really brought his A game was the one on Radushet [sic?] where Serral had a pretty big map advantage to begin with. If Maru brought that level more often there’s no way he’s getting swept twice in a row, although ofc doesn’t necessarily mean he reverses the result. I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that Maru figured ‘I’m fucked this map anyway’ and treated it as a free hit, and going in pessimistic relaxed him a bit to play his best game. How do people define mental block? The way it's been bandied feels to me like it's almost synonymous to "choke habit." After the second game, Maru may have felt very low on energy. I mean, he arguably gave his best effort in a long, hard struggle, and it wasn't even enough. And then, the game was followed by a decisive attack that countered his build. After that, he must've felt truly defeated and depleted. Is it a "mental block," or just mental drain, which every player experiences? His style also matches poorly against Serral's, which has nothing to do with mentality. "I don’t think it’s beyond the realms of possibility that Maru figured ‘I’m fucked this map anyway’ and treated it as a free hit, and going in pessimistic relaxed him a bit to play his best game." Interesting...? Serral had in the past performed better on maps that were supposedly unfavorable for zerg. In his case, however, I'm not sure if it has anything to do with mentality. | ||
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onPHYRE
Bulgaria925 Posts
On June 06 2024 06:24 Tommy131313 wrote: imho you can't seriously blame jetlag for Maru to (nearly) always lose against Serral. In the case of Dallas, it's almost the same time to fly for both of them, approx. 12 hours. If you look at all Maru-Serral matches say for the last 3 years, Maru has a map score of 7-29 offline/online (without minor cups). You can search for random explanations for this vast difference, or you can apply ockham's razor and assume, Serral's just better than Maru in the game, at least since 3 years (prolly much longer). And if you just look at the last 3 major international playoffs, it's even worse for Maru... 0-11 mapscore. So I don't believe there has to be a GOAT debate anymore, apart from Korean (or GSL) bias. Let’s also not forget that Serral is literally serving his military service. You can talk about it being different than KR military service (and you would be correct), but I think any other player under the reduced practice hours (Serral has stated to a few practice partners that while he can practice on weekends, his time devoted to SC2 has dropped overall due to responsibilities) would have flamed out. Serral just went a casual 14-2 including 7-0 versus Maru/herO (the best of the other 2 races) so it’s not like he had some easy set up. I don’t want to hear about Maru’s jet lag when this man is literally serving in the military (even with special accommodations for sports and his own practice room, it’s clear he won’t be able to practice full time with the biggest SC2 tournament in history coming up - based on $$$). People can debate it all they want and since it generates buzz for the scene I’m good with it. But there is no realistic debate in my mind anymore. Serral is so clearly ahead regardless of what criteria someone needs to elevate to get through the mental gymnastics required. I would be remiss if I didn’t end this by pointing out that not only is Maru one of the most influential players for this esport we all enjoy, but he is very clearly the second best player of all time and even currently. You can shit on him losing 8-0 to Serral in back to back grand finals, but name a player other than Serral (a generational talent) that placed better than Maru.. Reaching the finals they consistently in a game like SC2 is so difficult and no one else is putting up results that can even be compared to these two. If you exclude Serral, Maru would be favored in a best of 7 against any other player in the world right now based on betting odds. | ||
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LukaMav
28 Posts
On June 05 2024 18:08 SiarX wrote: How Rogue is better than Maru? I thought it is widely accepted that Maru is #2. It’s closer of an argument than you expected. I and most people have Maru at #3. Before Rogue went to military he had the same amount of GSL as Maru (4). At the same time, Rogue had 2 world championships under his belt already. All of Maru’s GSL after Rogue went to military gets weaker and weaker | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4967 Posts
On June 06 2024 14:03 onPHYRE wrote: Let’s also not forget that Serral is literally serving his military service. You can talk about it being different than KR military service (and you would be correct), but I think any other player under the reduced practice hours (Serral has stated to a few practice partners that while he can practice on weekends, his time devoted to SC2 has dropped overall due to responsibilities) To add something relevant to this, a person posted on reddit a translated version of Oliveira's reflection on this Dallas event. Here it is: www.reddit.com He said that Serral has to do service from Monday to Thursday and that he has Friday-Sunday free. He also said that him and Serral were practicing a lot together. If this second hand report is true, those two things tell me that the military service Serral is doing is somewhat very mild. And that glorifying him because of that by comparing it to korean military service is disingenuous at best (at the end of the day South korea is in official war with the North and just a truce stands). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27477 Posts
On June 06 2024 14:03 onPHYRE wrote: Let’s also not forget that Serral is literally serving his military service. You can talk about it being different than KR military service (and you would be correct), but I think any other player under the reduced practice hours (Serral has stated to a few practice partners that while he can practice on weekends, his time devoted to SC2 has dropped overall due to responsibilities) would have flamed out. Serral just went a casual 14-2 including 7-0 versus Maru/herO (the best of the other 2 races) so it’s not like he had some easy set up. I don’t want to hear about Maru’s jet lag when this man is literally serving in the military (even with special accommodations for sports and his own practice room, it’s clear he won’t be able to practice full time with the biggest SC2 tournament in history coming up - based on $$$). People can debate it all they want and since it generates buzz for the scene I’m good with it. But there is no realistic debate in my mind anymore. Serral is so clearly ahead regardless of what criteria someone needs to elevate to get through the mental gymnastics required. I would be remiss if I didn’t end this by pointing out that not only is Maru one of the most influential players for this esport we all enjoy, but he is very clearly the second best player of all time and even currently. You can shit on him losing 8-0 to Serral in back to back grand finals, but name a player other than Serral (a generational talent) that placed better than Maru.. Reaching the finals they consistently in a game like SC2 is so difficult and no one else is putting up results that can even be compared to these two. If you exclude Serral, Maru would be favored in a best of 7 against any other player in the world right now based on betting odds. What’s crazy is by most standards of the scene’s history Maru is having a truly great 18 months, and that’s even without indulging the ‘what if Serral was absent’ hypothetical, in which case Maru would be having one of the all-time great spans. I can’t recall such a big gap between a number one player and number too, but also not one as large between number two and everybody else. Hell, for many times in SC2’s history you’ve never had a general consensus best/second best player for such prolonged periods of time. Sometimes it’s lost in GOAT squabbling but it is truly a pleasure to watch the sheer mastery these two are bringing to bear, and for so many years. Lost a bit in the finals sweep is that herO has been giving every other Zerg problems for some time now, and Serral just absolutely picked him apart as well. | ||
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