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sCuMBaG
United Kingdom1144 Posts
-> EU law superceedes french law, when i'm not mistaken. did they have an oral agreement, or did stephano actually put his signature under a binding contract?! from there we can start discussing... this here is just some halfhearted discussion without any grounds or information | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46223 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:45 RmoteCntrld wrote: Sounds like complexity pulled the trigger a little too soon before announcing they signed him. Too bad its what you get when you cant wait. Once you've signed someone, it should become legally binding... a.k.a. you should be able to make the announcement o.O | ||
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Slider954
United States342 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:46 Gwal wrote: are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano. Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers. also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here  )I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind) I refer you to Piotr's informed and well thought out post before you start assuming that US law isn't applicable here. And I'm not saying it is or isn't, just pointing out that we don't know how it's going to be handled so don't say, "Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers." + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new). First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler + The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler + http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. » he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism. Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler + http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler + You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise. For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company. Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler + http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract; It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information. Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler + You can translate all this page with google : http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful… | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:38 exShikari wrote: The smart thing to do would be for Millenium to release a statement of their side of the story, like what Complexity has. It's called transparency, they're obviously hiding something here. And I think it's pretty safe to assume it's not just the TL forums this is being discussed on, it's all over reddit and I assume European forums too. They will try to talk with Complexity and find a solution. That is smart. Everyone should calm down and find a good way out of this for both sides. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:45 RmoteCntrld wrote: Sounds like complexity pulled the trigger a little too soon before announcing they signed him. Too bad its what you get when you cant wait. "We've signed blah blah" Er, how long would you want to wait after you sign someone? | ||
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Vorenius
Denmark1979 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:20 ElTiozo wrote: Can't really understand why ppl mostly blame M (even if their PR is completly shitty) and not the actual culprit, Stephano himself... Maybe because people still don't know what happened between Stephano and Millenium? Of course neither are without fault, but we don't know who played what part in him going back on the coL contract. And in any case, it's easier for people to hate and flame a company than a single individual. | ||
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yawnoC
United States3704 Posts
Hopefully it all goes well. | ||
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darkscream
Canada2310 Posts
Guess what, The EU and the US get along great and france is under the tyrannical boot of the EU like everyone else. Also, Even if there are absolutely no legal grounds, who is going to respect this player or team after this stunt? | ||
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polysciguy
United States488 Posts
On September 21 2011 06:00 darkscream wrote: LOL at all the armchair lawyers and politicians, and especially the frenchies coming out to scream LOL IN FRANCE UR LAWS MEAN NOTHING. Guess what, The EU and the US get along great and france is under the tyrannical boot of the EU like everyone else. Also, Even if there are absolutely no legal grounds, who is going to respect this player or team after this stunt? hey, ill have you know that my armchair comes equipped with all the relevant information to make a judgement about the case. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:21 jib117 wrote: If they were right they could provide facts to prove it. Col. showed facts, all millennium has done is say we are right please believe us. No Col. stated they have facts, they never showed any facts. | ||
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s4life
Peru1519 Posts
On September 21 2011 03:48 Bellygareth wrote: Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread. It's just too easy to hate on the French.. therein lies the problem.. | ||
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Dandy_Moustachu
France422 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Very informative post. The CDI for 12 month is kinda strange from Millenium for sure, it's a non sense. But one thing I wonder, I'm pretty sure that "theoretically" a CDI doesn't need any kind of paper support between the employer and the employee. (even if in fact 99.99% of the time there is a paper). And as Stephano says to Millenium that he agreed to stay with them a few day before he sign the Col's one, couldn't that be consider as a contract between Millenium and Stephano ? Even if it's totally theoretical, I wonder  | ||
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Takezou
United States320 Posts
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iS.flick
Switzerland47 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:48 Ym!r wrote: Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased. Uhm.... I was being sarcastic, if you read my post carefully, you will see that I say it right after I say their PR is horrible, I even added '!!!' to make sure people like you understood.. Even then, you can probably tell by the rest of the post that I'm not biased in favor of Mill. Learn how to read, son. | ||
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Pokebunny
United States10654 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:07 carloselcoco wrote: So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world? Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw) I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so. | ||
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LagT_T
Argentina535 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times! coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money. | ||
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iS.flick
Switzerland47 Posts
On September 21 2011 06:15 LagT_T wrote: coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money. Not to mention the ROI they would have gotten if he didn't change his mind.. | ||
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Slider954
United States342 Posts
On September 21 2011 06:15 LagT_T wrote: coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money. And for all we know, all the time they spent in trying to get Stephano could have been spent in trying to sign the now free agent Naniwa. So yes, I think there was some form of loss on Col part. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
Feels a bit shaky, and this whole thing doesn't boost my confidence. Need better info from the people involved. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On September 21 2011 06:12 Dandy_Moustachu wrote: Very informative post. The CDI for 12 month is kinda strange from Millenium for sure, it's a non sense. But one thing I wonder, I'm pretty sure that "theoretically" a CDI doesn't need any kind of paper support between the employer and the employee. (even if in fact 99.99% of the time there is a paper). And as Stephano says to Millenium that he agreed to stay with them a few day before he sign the Col's one, couldn't that be consider as a contract between Millenium and Stephano ? Even if it's totally theoretical, I wonder In some cases it can. Oral contracts are as binding as written ones. But there are areas where written contracts are required. I don't know how it is in France in case of employment. As for his statement about Mill few days before signing with col, hard to say, judge would have to decide I would guess. If there would be enough evidence that Stephano promised Millenium to stay with them and that there was agreement between both parties then judge might decide that this was binding contract and the one between col and Stephano was invalid, but that does not take the blame off Stephano, on the contrary. | ||
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