EPTStatement of Millenium on the Stephano situation - Page 23
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Jisunsu
Philippines47 Posts
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Googity
United States127 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:11 Jisunsu wrote: Am I the only one wanting an actual lawsuit to push through and proceeded by an actual court decision? At least that way, (1) it'll be public record and (2) there would be an actual case study precedent for contracts in the world of eSports Honestly I would be all for this... it would open the eyes of a lot people as to how things should work and, in almost everyother case in everyother profession, does work. | ||
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TLUtv
Canada18 Posts
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional. | ||
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Lomak
United States311 Posts
User was banned for this post. | ||
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Piotr
26 Posts
Oh that's true, my sentence in english is ambiguous. It's hard to talk about laws in French so you can imagine in english... I will edit my post. | ||
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ElTiozo
France43 Posts
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jib117
United States24 Posts
On September 21 2011 00:24 Gamegene wrote: Nope. We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~ If they were right they could provide facts to prove it. Col. showed facts, all millennium has done is say we are right please believe us. | ||
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exShikari
Australia237 Posts
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Apom
France655 Posts
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Quote spoilered for length reasons Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new). + Show Spoiler + First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler + The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Constitution. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler + http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. » he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism. Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler + http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler + You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise. For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company. Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler + http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract; It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information. Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler + You can translate all this page with google : http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…  I think something is missing in that reasoning : one cannot be employed in France without a French employment contract (CDI or otherwise), unless it is only a temporary posting (for which the modalities can be found on this French governmental source, in English, and clearly would not apply to Stephano if he were to stay in France except for the occasional tournament - of course things are quite different if he is to be sent to Korea or to a future Complexity House in the US). What of that contract then ? It certainly does not conform. | ||
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integrity
United States1014 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:14 TLUtv wrote: [TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional. i hear what you are saying but dont get ahead of yourself. | ||
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Jiddra
Sweden2685 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:11 Jisunsu wrote: Am I the only one wanting an actual lawsuit to push through and proceeded by an actual court decision? At least that way, (1) it'll be public record and (2) there would be an actual case study precedent for contracts in the world of eSports It would be nice, but the risk/reward scenario isn't that great for the team  | ||
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Atrimex
193 Posts
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exShikari
Australia237 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:36 Atrimex wrote: Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement. The smart thing to do would be for Millenium to release a statement of their side of the story, like what Complexity has. It's called transparency, they're obviously hiding something here. And I think it's pretty safe to assume it's not just the TL forums this is being discussed on, it's all over reddit and I assume European forums too. | ||
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iS.flick
Switzerland47 Posts
I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc.. Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example. Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea... | ||
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Slider954
United States342 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:36 Atrimex wrote: Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement. If you go over the the Mil website you'll see that the posters there are asking for more info also and blasting Mil for this lame attempt at an explanation. So it's not just the 'liquid crowd' wanting a better answer. And I don't think calling TL'ers 'dogs' is a wise move. | ||
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RmoteCntrld
United States596 Posts
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Gwal
Spain20 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:14 TLUtv wrote: How can you say you aren't violating applicable law, Applicable law is dependent on the country the person is currently residing in, You have messed up horribly by allowing this too happen, He is in a legally binding contract to represent the team Complexity under United States Law, You guys have probably ruined stephano's career due to the fact that if he wishes to go abroad and play at MLG's and in the NASL or other USA tournaments, He will not be able to do it under your name without breaking the law, Of course that is reliant on the terms Millennium and Complexity have come too. It's not that we hate you for what you've done, You've just shown the world of E-sports Millenniums True colours and sorry to say, you're losing alot of fans for it. You should have looked at it from a business standpoint and taken your losses versus causing such an uproar, foolish decision to say the least and quite unprofessional. As for your confidence, Stephano may be protected under french law, but that does not mean that he has diplomatic immunity, he is still under scrutiny of the law dependent on the country no matter where he is. [TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional. are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano. Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers. also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here )I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind) | ||
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Ym!r
131 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:43 flick.ch wrote: I think it's counter-productive to make assumptions as to what laws applies, if French law would allow a breach in this case etc... We simply don't know. I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc.. Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example. Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea... Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased. | ||
Chill
Calgary25981 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:46 Gwal wrote: are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano. Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers. also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here )I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind) Read what piotr posted. You're embarassing yourself. + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new). First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler + The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler + http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. » he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism. Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler + http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad. The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read. In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler + You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise. For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company. Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler + http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract; It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information. Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler + You can translate all this page with google : http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American. My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful… | ||
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Mordiford
4448 Posts
On September 21 2011 05:48 Ym!r wrote: Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased. I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. I think you two may be on the same side of this discussion. | ||
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