As you may now know, it has been announced yesterday that Stephano had been hired by team Complexity, and a few hours later, that he had finally decided to sign a permanent position contract with us, Millenium, under conditions previously fixed with him (without any intermediate overbidding).
Although we are very confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law, we would also like to emphasize our good will to see this situation solved the right way.
We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. To our fans and to all the people supporting eSport in general, we want to thank you for your everlasting support and for your interest in the values that should be carried by eSport structures.
As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be. We would like to apologize for the long time it took us to release a statement, but the last two days have been very stressful and exhausting for everyone involved. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. Hoping that you will understand us,
this is a joke. not even one fact is stated in this text about the actual happenings. not even one. hope col sues the shit out of millenium, the way they treat esports and this situation is a joke
On September 20 2011 22:21 MGN wrote: i guess this is better than nothing
unfortunately it is nothing. "we wont tell you what happened from our point of view and we hope we wont need to go to court, so we now contact col after ignoring them for 2 days beforehand"
having no statement at all didnt leave us with less information than this
I don't really see how Millenium can be in the right here, but I'll take your "gossip is not always ground truth" until you actually give us any details. I can understand the competition that has emerged for this player though, he is a beast.
As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be. We would like to apologize for the long time it took us to release a statement, but the last two days have been very stressful and exhausting for everyone involved. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. Hoping that you will understand us,
You could be transparant and tell the public of the details that all the rumourmongers are having a field day about... or you can not release anything, tell us not to listen to any stories, and keep us all guessng. yeh that works too.
funny that after millenium "do the dirty" they are saying there needs to be some governing body to stop it from happening.. how about you dont take the piss in the first place, have some morals. You guys have just sent stephanos career back into ths stone age with this **** move -- who will trust him in the future?
On September 20 2011 22:29 iNViCiOUZ wrote: So an official anouncement fomr CompLexity over thir website, over reddit.com and over TL is "Internet gossip"? What dou you guys think you are?
i think they are talking about the 150 pages of crap that appeared yesterday. and if they dont want everyone to know about their discussions with col, who cares if the problem is solved at the end. i dont get why people on a forum would be entitled to know everything about the signing of a contract.
Don't see why they need to explain more until everything is 100% done and clear. They shouldn´t even have released this short statement until all thing are cleared up.
You are claiming that the contract he signed has no weight (either legally or as a matter of respect). I believe you said at some point that there were "problems" with the contract. You gave no details. You said that Complexity had disoriented Stephano. I want to know how you think they did that (other than making a case for him joining Complexity that you happen to disagree with). The reason people are believing the "internet rumors" is that so far Complexity and Millenium haven't actually disagreed about any of the facts. And the picture of the facts that seems pretty agreed upon looks pretty bad for Millenium.
This statement is horrible, it says nothing at all and doesn't clear anything up. coL released an official statement, revealing their side of what happened. Millenium is like lol yeah internet gossip, its kinda complicated guys, were positive were right tho.
First you blast col in your first statement, then you release a second statement saying absolutely nothing other than "we think we're right." Millenium should probably consider consulting a PR firm right after they stop consulting Uncle Larry who watches Judge Judy for legal advice
Nothing concrete, no explanations at all. The worst thing you have done, you shouldn't have released that, it will only make the community laugh harder at Millenium, and french teams....
On September 20 2011 22:34 goswser wrote: This statement is horrible, it says nothing at all and doesn't clear anything up. coL released an official statement, revealing their side of what happened. Millenium is like lol yeah internet gossip, its kinda complicated guys, were positive were right tho.
It's kind of a smart move by coL to release a statement to get fans on their side if they feel that M have to law on their side.
Hey guys, I don't know anything about the issue but it seems that none of you do, yet you all are complaining so I'll just do the same so I can look important:
This is shit!! I hate that!!! Wow man that sucks so hard!!! What unprofessionalism!! I demand justice!! I want 500 internets for this effin bad mistake!
Wait wait, this gets a lot better with pitchforks. Get your free pitchfork HERE!
Who cares if they said that they are still solving the issue! I want the FULL TRUTH NOW! Maybe 9/11 happened because of Millenium? WHO KNOWS? Puma to Millenium!? Puzzle got an offer from complexity?!
Wow, I'm actually insulted by that vague and pointless statement. At least Complexity tried to explain what happened. Maybe you guys aren't doing the same because there's nothing that portrays you in a good light? You might've gotten away with it legally, but I assure you, you've lost a lot of respect and credibility.
It's stuff like this (what Millenium is trying to pull) is, for lack of better terms, killing esports and stopping it from being legitimate in the mainstream audience's eyes. Contracts are to be honoured no matter what. Millenium is unprofessional in the heart of the word. Seriously disappointed in them. So Complexity has a statement released with their side of the story in a couple hours of the news breaking and it takes Millenium 24hours+ to release something with absolutely zero substance? What the fuck were you guys doing these 24 hours? Jerking each other off in a closed room?
So now you want to talk to Col? Well, better late than never I guess. It'll be interesting to see what the teams decide to do once they actually talk to lawyers(assuming they do, anybody would)
Feels like Mill found out that coL really means business with their legal actions and might have ground to pursue it and thus they released this statement stating they would be willing to talk with coL.
Kind of weird after the manager said yesterday that they had nothing to say to coL anymore.
This statement is hilarious. It looks like a page of text, but it parses out to "nuh-UH!" It's like a third grade debate club.
I'd be happy if Millenium actually released a statement, since I'm curious to hear their side of the story, but this post is practically in violation of TL's prohibition against contentless OPs.
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
they want to talk to Col after ignoring them YAY!!
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
they want to talk to Col after ignoring them YAY!!
Yea I did read that. What would you have said if they decided to not talk to complexity?
Admit it, in every situation you just want to create drama. Trying to solve the issue creates drama, not trying to creates more drama. Everything creates more drama. More drama. Drama.
This seems like a very hastily made PR Statement, and I'm not siding with either Mill. or coL.. but I have to say coL has released much better PR Statements than Mill, this really doesn't really give any insight on the current situation.
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. [...] Source : Official news
I don't think the lack of communication is to blame. The question remains whether Stephano signed a contract with complexity right before signing a contract with you guys. If he did, then he is 100% to blame for signing another contract with you guys afterwards (assuming you didn't know about that), if he didn't then complexity is to blame for telling lies. Somehow this seems like an incredibly clear situation to me.
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
Why releasing a statement if you don't want people to comment it?... I really don't understand you.
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. [...] Source : Official news
I don't think the lack of communication is to blame. The question remains whether Stephano signed a contract with complexity right before signing a contract with you guys. If he did, then he is 100% to blame for signing another contract with you guys afterwards (assuming you didn't know about that), if he didn't then complexity is to blame for telling lies. Somehow this seems like an incredibly clear situation to me.
He did sign a contract with col, but Millenium told stephano that there are loopholes in it according to french law and he should therefore ignore it.
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
A bit of information instead of contentless releases that are an insult to our intelligence might be nice. Their dealings with Stephano seem somewhat shady, particularly to those of us accustomed to the system of US contract law (and as the entire fucking thread yesterday was devoted to it, lets try to avoid debating law most of us know little about).
I don't know. I don't see much professionalism from any of the three parts involved (the teams and of course the player himself).
Maybe eSport, especially the SC2 scene, is moving a bit too fast recently. Nor the teams or the players seems to be ready for it, or taking it as seriously as they should.
I wish Millenium, coL and Stephano a fast and quiet resolution, for the sake of SC2 eSport credibility.
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
Why releasing a statement if you don't want people to comment it?... I really don't understand you.
Their statement is that they are trying to solve the issue.
What else do you want? That is my question.
A bit of information instead of contentless releases that are an insult to our intelligence might be nice. Their dealings with Stephano seem somewhat shady, particularly to those of us accustomed to the system of US contract law (and as the entire fucking thread yesterday was devoted to it, lets try to avoid debating law most of us know little about).
Mhm...What could be the reason of not releasing information? Could it be ...that they don't have it? Maybe they too don't know things for sure? Maybe they don't want to release information that they don't have or they don't have proof for?
They are trying to solve the issue and this is what we have, when they feel the need to they will release more information but right now things are still going on. It's easy to understand that in that phase not every bit of information is needed for us.
Imho you guys need to learn that sometimes information must stay private to solve a specific issue. This is the reason why you're, at least in some countries, you're not allowed to talk about law cases in progress.
On September 20 2011 22:53 Sandermatt wrote: He did sign a contract with col, but Millenium told stephano that there are loopholes in it according to french law and he should therefore ignore it.
"We don't have anything to say yet but we're sure we didn't break French law so don't hate us guys! Life is complicated and we're busy. Please take our word and ignore the Complexity statement which had total transparency (from a group who can't afford to lie). We'll talk to Complexity now that you're all mad!"
Why would you post this? Either tell the community something which sheds light on the situation or leave a one-liner in the existing thread (Millenium: "We are engaging in talks with Complexity. We don't want eSports to be tarnished by misunderstandings."). All this post can possibly do is make people mad - it's not even an announcement of an announcement; it's an announcement that nothing will be announced.
On September 20 2011 22:42 Lixo wrote: More and more hate. You guys don't have anything better to do than hate on a topic you basically don't know anything about ?
It is exactly because we don't know enough about this topic that we are not pleased with statements like that...
Or maybe you just want to create more drama.
Guys, they said that they are talking to complexity. What do you want? A public skype conference?
Why releasing a statement if you don't want people to comment it?... I really don't understand you.
Their statement is that they are trying to solve the issue.
What else do you want? That is my question.
Ofc they are trying to solve the issue, this is a nobrainer. What we want? Useful information?
On September 20 2011 22:53 Sandermatt wrote: He did sign a contract with col, but Millenium told stephano that there are loopholes in it according to french law and he should therefore ignore it.
Interesting. Can you source this statement?
that's what they said in French on Millenium TV when they "explained" the situation yesterday 7.30pm CET
Why do people care about this? Someone please explain to me how Col was harmed by Stephano. In my opinion, the only thing harmed by all this is Stephano's credibility. <shrug>
On September 20 2011 22:58 banzaiib wrote: Why do people care about this? Someone please explain to me how Col was harmed by Stephano. In my opinion, the only thing harmed by all this is Stephano's credibility. <shrug>
No, the real deal here is the credibility of the contracts in general in the scene. If a player can sign a contract and then do whatever he wants anyway, it is not a good sign, hence why this matter is important. Atleast now, players will think twice before doing something like that, really bad PR for them.
On September 20 2011 22:58 banzaiib wrote: Why do people care about this? Someone please explain to me how Col was harmed by Stephano. In my opinion, the only thing harmed by all this is Stephano's credibility. <shrug>
If the situation was unexplained it would look like CoL had tried to poach Millenium's player. When Millenium found out they got him back (after CoL's announcement they had acquired Stephano).
Essentially, if no one said anything CoL would look bad. After Complexities statement, Millenium looks awful. People care because reputation is incredibly important to teams and players (as well as sponsors, to some extent). Law is also a big deal for international businesses (and esports in general).
The problem here really is that it may not be completely worth it for Col to spend the money on lawyers to beat Mil in a court game over this.
It's really just up to Col whether or not they want to make a point and lose money, but create a good precedence that players should be honor their contracts, or take no legal action.
Atleast Mil and Stephano will have all the negative PR in the world over this
On September 20 2011 22:29 Denizen[9] wrote: millenium made stephano to sign a permanent contract, thats probably the worst thing stefano could do
There is no such thing as a "permanent contract", at least in France. There are countless ways to (legally) get rid of an employee, or to leave your employer, especially when on undetermined duration contract (the kind signed by Stephano).
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. [...] Source : Official news
I don't think the lack of communication is to blame. The question remains whether Stephano signed a contract with complexity right before signing a contract with you guys. If he did, then he is 100% to blame for signing another contract with you guys afterwards (assuming you didn't know about that), if he didn't then complexity is to blame for telling lies. Somehow this seems like an incredibly clear situation to me.
He did sign a contract with col, but Millenium told stephano that there are loopholes in it according to french law and he should therefore ignore it.
Great attitude for millenium to grow e-sports, ignore that countries laws because we dont like them >.>. If an American player signed a french contract i would expect him to honor that contract and be punished under french law if he broke it. I was waiting for a statement by millennium to clear this up as maybe it was not as bad as it sounded but apparently it, them pouching coL's player, worse even them stealing a player from coL.
After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months
On your own website you have this posted in another news article. Unless it's a mistranslation or I'm misinterpreting that statement, you obviously did not speak to coL in that long discussion where he "realized his mistake" and now you say there needs to be more communication between teams and you want to resolve this with the other team in the best way possible after the fact? That's just a tad bit disingenuous.
I'd rather not get a statement at all than get bullshit, I get enough of that in regular news as it is. Give us details, give us facts, refute or deny your antagonizes with some sort of solid evidence and present your case, or don't give us anything at all. I don't need to know how confident you are, or that you're in "discussions" (which is a synonym of 'ether' coincidentally), and I sure as shit don't need to be lectured on "internet gossip," though the 'gossip' in this case is Complexity's entire detailed statement.
You are not fucking helping yourself Millenium. If you don't give a shit about what we think (as it would seem from this statement) then it would be best to hang up your keyboards.
I might be wrong but Millenium never posted to reply to trolls and such things, so dont expect more then that statement. From an american PoV you might argue that this is how its done and that you want to know all the details, but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly. However I am pretty choked at CoL's PR statement pointing finger and saying they have proof when they actually didnt show any and might not have any. I mean Millenium is saying there was no contact with CoL and CoL is saying we were bidding... If you ask for facts from Millenium why not ask for proof from CoL? Be reasonable this is PR and flaming will not get you answers, it will just prove to Millenium that they are right to keep in formations from the public.
Millenium let Huk and ToD go for other gaming house, was there any problem before? the answer is simply NO. So if they claim there was a problem with CoL, I would give them the benefit of the doubt until things are resolved.
- Stephano signed with complexity - Stephano signes with Millenium afterwards - one of Milleniums staff states on stream that complexity's contract is invalid in french law (which might very well be true) - Millenium leaking statement that hints at that they think they are in the right
I don't really care who is right or wrong legally, but I sure know who lost a lot of credibility and respect from me...
I agree the statement feels a bit empty, however it does say there was an oral agreement between M and Stephano prior to the coL & Stephano contract, and one should not dismiss this fact easily.
As far as I am concerned, biggest mistake was made by Stephano, not M who is only trying to protect its interests as any company would do. I do not support Stephano actions, but I (mostly, the trashtalk about the coL contract and the wrongly worded first statement could have been avoided) support M ones. If that matters, I don't think coL did anything legally wrong either, though speaking to Millenium the weeks before the signup would have avoided all this mess.
On September 20 2011 23:15 kudjuk wrote: I might be wrong but Millenium never posted to reply to trolls and such things, so dont expect more then that statement. From an american PoV you might argue that this is how its done and that you want to know all the details, but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly. However I am pretty choked at CoL's PR statement pointing finger and saying they have proof when they actually didnt show any and might not have any. I mean Millenium is saying there was no contact with CoL and CoL is saying we were bidding... If you ask for facts from Millenium why not ask for proof from CoL? Be reasonable this is PR and flaming will not get you answers, it will just prove to Millenium that they are right to keep in formations from the public.
Millenium let Huk and ToD go for other gaming house, was there any problem before? the answer is simply NO. So if they claim there was a problem with CoL, I would give them the benefit of the doubt until things are resolved.
did you read the Complexity statement, they have logs to back up each point they listed, though i'm sure they wont be released to general public. The wouldn't make a statement like tis without SOME form of evidence (talking about the "having logs" part). Complexity a this point has total transparancy, mill is just saying ignore the situation.
So your player signs a contract after so many days of negotiations, offers and counteroffers and after you lose the player you "FORCE" the player to disregard his obligations to the contract cause there "might" be loopholes according to French law? Are you kidding us? I do not care if there are loopholes in that contract, the player signed it and should pay whatever consequences for breaking that contract were agreed upon... I lost ALL respect that i had in Millenium team and i seriously hope that Complexity sues them.
To be honest, this statement sounds like what a lawyer or a PR spokesperson would write. In other words it's a lot of words without any substance. I do appreciate that Millenium is open to trying to make things right though.
On September 20 2011 23:24 tubs wrote: To be honest, this statement sounds like what a lawyer or a PR spokesperson would write. In other words it's a lot of words without any substance. I do appreciate that Millenium is open to trying to make things right though.
Yeah I feel the same way. I feel like I just read a brief summary of what has already been said. I wish Mill would give us their story of what actually happened.
On September 20 2011 23:15 kudjuk wrote: I might be wrong but Millenium never posted to reply to trolls and such things, so dont expect more then that statement. From an american PoV you might argue that this is how its done and that you want to know all the details, but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly. However I am pretty choked at CoL's PR statement pointing finger and saying they have proof when they actually didnt show any and might not have any. I mean Millenium is saying there was no contact with CoL and CoL is saying we were bidding... If you ask for facts from Millenium why not ask for proof from CoL? Be reasonable this is PR and flaming will not get you answers, it will just prove to Millenium that they are right to keep in formations from the public.
Millenium let Huk and ToD go for other gaming house, was there any problem before? the answer is simply NO. So if they claim there was a problem with CoL, I would give them the benefit of the doubt until things are resolved.
did you read the Complexity statement, they have logs to back up each point they listed, though i'm sure they wont be released to general public. The wouldn't make a statement like tis without SOME form of evidence (talking about the "having logs" part). Complexity a this point has total transparancy, mill is just saying ignore the situation.
Ok so explain to me why if there was a bidding, Millenium wasnt made aware of it and of the result? And if they have logs to back it, how come Millenium staff never spoke to a Complexity member? Seriously how can you prove there was a bidding if both teams never talked to each other? if your answer is : maybe Stephano told them he had better with millenium few times, it doesnt make it a bidding, it makes it a negotiation between Stephano and CoL, doesnt it?
On September 20 2011 23:15 kudjuk wrote: I might be wrong but Millenium never posted to reply to trolls and such things, so dont expect more then that statement. From an american PoV you might argue that this is how its done and that you want to know all the details, but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly.
From your point of view you mean. Please don't generalize. Most people just want to know what happened, no need to go into all the details for that. And after 2 days of refusing to engage in a discussion with Col, they come out and says that they will take the high road and discuss things with Col, because it is what esport needs.
No need to discuss the contract publicly, of course, but an official statement explaining their side of the story would be what's best. Then both team discuss, and we let them, and we hear their conclusions afterwards.
From the moment that there was a clear and public misunderstanding, things have also became a matter of public image. From that point, transparency is the better choice, regardless of the country you live in, especially if one of the team refuses to engage in discussion.
On September 20 2011 23:24 LovE-z33k wrote: Mil still doesn't have my respect after this. Unfortunately, you're actions have lost you a fan for good.
Frankly speaking, I doubt they really care about the international community. It seems that all they care about is the french e-sport scene and themselves. Unlike you, I was never a fan of M but like you, I will never be after this crazy incident.
Millenium have been pretty shady with their statements and some of the stuff they have released has been absolutely disgraceful. This statement is just another shady one which tells people nothing except that they think they are right and Complexity is wrong.
Let's just hope some moral justice is done and if international contract law fails to resolve this, the community will do some self regulation and ensure that players do not break contracts with no repercussions. A 6 -12 month ban from major tournaments should warn players and team not to pull this stunt in future
Let's just hope some moral justice is done and if international contract law fails to resolve this, the community will do some self regulation and ensure that players do not break contracts with no repercussions. A 6 -12 month ban from major tournaments should warn players and team not to pull this stunt in future
I am so confused and don't even understand what is going on anymore. My head is spinning from reading so many contradicting updates to this situation. I'm going to wait till everything is solved to even make up my mind on this issue.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
TBH honest, they don't have to. I'd rather they just hash it out privately and come back to the community with some concrete conclusions, because so far I feel it's all just been drama filled posturing and positioning. I'm sure from their perspective they don't want to do this publicly or start a back and forth on TL and neither are they required or are we as fans entitled. Answers will come, I'm just going to be patient.
Like I said in the other thread, that statement doesn't really tell us anything. :/
Looks like they don't value clarification and transparency, what a pity.
Here's hoping they listen to the fans (and common sense) and attempt to clear this up after all. Really leaves one with a sour aftertaste if one of the parties doesn't want to clarify when the other was transparent and open about things. Not to say that they did anything wrong. but this doesn't improve their position in all this, that's for sure.
While I applaud the fact that there's finally a statement from millenium, this essentially solves nothing. Complexity gave a full explanation from their point of view, while you said nothing. I think everyone is still waiting for something that explains what happened from your pov, otherwise we have no choice but to believe what complexity said (not saying they are lying, but there's always 2 sides to a story)
This added nothing to our understanding of the situation. I guess they felt they should release something because of the overwhelming support for coL but this didn't help sway people to their side I think.
As you may now know, it has been announced yesterday that Stephano had been hired by team Complexity, and a few hours later, that he had finally decided to sign a permanent position contract with us, Millenium, under conditions previously fixed with him (without any intermediate overbidding).
Although we are very confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law, we would also like to emphasize our good will to see this situation solved the right way.
We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. To our fans and to all the people supporting eSport in general, we want to thank you for your everlasting support and for your interest in the values that should be carried by eSport structures
.
As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be. We would like to apologize for the long time it took us to release a statement, but the last two days have been very stressful and exhausting for everyone involved. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. Hoping that you will understand us,
Can you please elaborate on what actually happened beyond " things are often more complicated than they might seem to be" as that doesn't really say anything.
Can you provide some details on what happened from your side of the story as Col has done?
This "statement" doesnt state anything, wtf? Could millenium please explain their point of view? Complexity did in detail and since there is only one side i can see right now i think that millenium acted wrong and that there has to be some more waterproof contracting going on because all that french right crap to get out of a signed contratct is just rediculus and not releasing any info and ignoring complexity at first is just awfull management. Millenium shouldnt be able do hide like this. And really i dont get why stephano would be signing with mil since he should only go to french only tourneys while he is top notch.
Edit: after looking at the mil posts in the other thread i really get the feeling you got now idea how to handle this case, especially saying gogogo watch miltv and if you cant speak french you are fucked LOL we dont care and just cause all of you are mad we make a thread without info thats just dumb.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
Good news is that with more situations like this popping up, the closer we are to at least getting some organization that will enforce contracts immediately. The only time a player will see a contract seriously is if the teams and organizations get together and disallow a player from participating in events under a different team if they breach a contract. It would do no good if only MLG took this stance and GSL didn't since sure the player wouldn't participate at MLG but, he could just go over to GSL. It would hurt him but, not as much. If that same player couldn't participate in anything except small lans, that would hurt him and the team quite a bit since it's less exposure. It's getting to be that time.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Well that was a great summary of stuff we already know, but there's a distinct lack of new information. Normally press releases actually contain useful information, but this one says absolutely nothing. At this point in time I still have to side with CoL, because at this point with the info I have, I believe CoL is winning the PR competition.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
Your statement borders on naivety. The guy hiding in the shadows is doing so for a reason.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Pretty much, they could have easily have contacted coL at the time but chose not too I guess.
All this stuff feels dodgy but wait and see how it plays out.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
The fact that they're even trying to explain their lack of communication with coL away is absolutely laughable considering they were happily streaming as if nothing was wrong while coL was trying to get through to both parties to negotiate yesterday. Neither of them elected to respond.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
Your statement borders on naivety. The guy hiding in the shadows is doing so for a reason.
zzzz.
If it's naive to want to hear accountable information from BOTH sides before condemning them then yes I am very naive!
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
Your statement borders on naivety. The guy hiding in the shadows is doing so for a reason.
zzzz.
If it's naive to want to hear accountable information from BOTH sides before condemning them then yes I am very naive!
It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy.
But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are.
I hope coL takes legal action, things like this in esports is going to happen again if an example is not made of those who think they can just sign a contract and disrespect it off the bat.
On September 20 2011 22:29 Denizen[9] wrote: millenium made stephano to sign a permanent contract, thats probably the worst thing stefano could do
A permanent contract? WTF does that even mean?
That's a CDI, in short it means they can't fire stephano unless they pay him like 6 month salary and some other stuff.
It simply means a work contract without an end date. It can be terminated by agreement from both parts, but Stephano cannot be fired except in serious violations. French labor laws are really strong for employees.
On September 20 2011 22:29 Denizen[9] wrote: millenium made stephano to sign a permanent contract, thats probably the worst thing stefano could do
A permanent contract? WTF does that even mean?
That's a CDI, in short it means they can't fire stephano unless they pay him like 6 month salary and some other stuff.
I see, after doing a little research a French CDI is pretty standard and less dramatic than the term "permanent contract" implies but is also rather vague to me if that's a typical contract.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) before signing Stephano even if Stephano was playing with M and had an agreement about a future contract with them.
I guess taking some time to cool his head before answering coL and / or making a (second) flaming statement was a really bad idea, huh ! (yeah, I wasn't a big fan of M first statement either)
As a matter of fact, the stream was about an important cup and it was impossible to delay it. The SC2 manager said on this stream he didn't have the time to answer to coL yet (work + stream) and that it'll have to wait to the day after (tuesday = today).
On September 21 2011 01:21 Chargelot wrote: It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy.
But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are.
Did I say that I support Millennium and they're completely right?
I don't know. I don't KNOW. So I'm not going to call them out saying "WAAAA. YOU RELEASED A BS STATEMENT THEREFORE YOU MUST BE WRONG!"
I don't like their statements either pal! But you can't just condemn them over that!
Lwl said that everything was done overnight. Basicly there was talk between stephano and complexity for quite some time and counteroffers by millenium.
This is proven by statement of Jason from Complexity quoting stephano " i changed my mind ".
So basicly , making an offer at 5PM and making him sign right away is just nor really professional from Complexity. As the Last offer was made overnight , its clear that millenium had no idea about it. Why ? ( When you try to recrut a player from ANOTHER team and ANOTHER country and dont want to have this kind of thing hapen you just dont make them sign overnight and annouce it right away that just common sens... )
Its simple and i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. That prove that they didnt knew shit about that last offer.
Second point :
Why would stephano leave a team such as Millenium with tons of great players , for One like Complexity with only low-pro... only for money ? Probably... Or to be the star of a team where he have 10 times the level of his teamate ? I dont think that ideal for complexity.
Last thing , as for complexity having more money that millenium or making stephano travel alot... we'll see about that when ATLEAST one of their player come to play a tourney in europe.. Also stephano explicitly said that he DOES NOT WANT to go to korea on long term. ( unlike ToD )
.. i cant see stephano loosing to mutch here..
He will be going back so his team , with former team mate , with people whom he trust and when his 1 year contract will be over.. he will have NO PROBLEM finding another team if he wants too. Cause no team would pass on stephano he is to good , even after this drama. But anyway in 1 year everyone will have forget about that.
Last but not least , great move from millenium witch are sure to keep him 1 whole years .GG
On September 21 2011 01:18 schaf wrote: why is everybody complaining about this?
this whole *player changes team* thing is growing into the soap opera of SC2... -.-
My main concern is that for esports to be taken seriously by serious people, contracts have to be honored. Millennium and Stephano haven't, which is why most people are complaining about it.
I'm personally not upset that Stephano is staying with Millennium, but rather that Millennium has taken the standpoint that the contract that Stephano signed isn't worth the paper it's printed on. It's bad business practice and, if they get away with it, encourages other teams to employ similar tactics to try to void contracts. It has the potential to balloon to the point where contracts are meaningless in SC2, and if that occurs, then any dream of SC2 becoming more popular and more mainstream goes out the window.
I think that some non-french people need some information about laws and contract in France.
The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called.
In col/stephano/millenium case, it is weird to read in the first news of Millenium a notion of time (they said that stephano will stay for the next 12 months in M) and a CDI. There is no point to talk about time when you want a CDI.
On September 21 2011 01:21 Chargelot wrote: It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy.
But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are.
Did I say that I support Millennium and they're completely right?
I don't know. I don't KNOW. So I'm not going to call them out saying "WAAAA. YOU RELEASED A BS STATEMENT THEREFORE YOU MUST BE WRONG!"
I don't like their statements either pal! But you can't just condemn them over that!
for me at least: innocent until proven guilty!
I'll see you in a week when we either don't have any information still, or Mil. has shown why they're scared of being transparent.
What I found most offensive in this whole situation was Llewellys' little show on millenium.tv. I saw none of the "professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport" mentioned in the OP, just some guy ridiculing Complexity, the community and taking all of us for idiots.
This kind of sounds like Mill had a CDI(?) contract with Stephano and believed him to be theirs. And Stephano decided to entertain coL offer, since he can end (if Piotr is correct) a CDI at will.
On September 21 2011 01:31 Chargelot wrote: I'll see you in a week when we either don't have any information still, or Mil. has shown why they're scared of being transparent.
Til then, stay in school kiddo.
Sorry that I'm refraining from jumping to a drastic conclusion.
There's no need to insult me or condescend, and that's just really rude to be honest.
On September 20 2011 22:34 aristarchus wrote: You are claiming that the contract he signed has no weight (either legally or as a matter of respect). I believe you said at some point that there were "problems" with the contract. You gave no details.
You do know what kind of shitstorm would happen if M would release the contract that coL offered to Stephano? That would be the first progamer contract ever made public. Without the team which wrote the contact agreeing to the release.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
Your statement borders on naivety. The guy hiding in the shadows is doing so for a reason.
zzzz.
If it's naive to want to hear accountable information from BOTH sides before condemning them then yes I am very naive!
It's naive to believe the guys who are scared of the public are scared because they're totally and completely in the right. Do I want information? Of course. But what I don't want is over-hyped nationalist or worthless (the two ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) bullshit, which is all we have gotten from Mil. You don't dodge questions because they reveal you're the good guy.
But the Z's are cute, it really shows how mature you are.
Well some people mentioned cases where coL was looking shady as well (vVvTitan). Just a short mindgame: coL said they talked to Stephano for 18 days prior to the signing. It could be very well possible that they said "Ok, enough talk. This is our last offer, if you dont sign this night we will retract everything and look for someone else. You know, Naniwa i.e. is leaving dignitas. He might be happy with our offer".
Nothing in coLs statement would contradict my story. But also nothing in it supports it. We cannot know if that or something similiar is the case.
I personally would very much like it to go before a court. Just to know if the whole programer contracting stuff is legal / fair. Make contracts public. Let them be checked by lawyers (who dont only check from one point of view). (i.e. contracter vs employee contracts)
But overall I like the Milennium approach more. Dont spread this legal kindgarten stuff to the public. Either you're right; then sue them. Maybe approach the other team & the player and give them time to respond (at least 24hours) before releasing so many statements (same concerns the M guy who talked about it on stream).
Also overall - it's Stephanos fault. He signed the contract prematurely. And he then broke it. If anyone should be sued it's him. Not M. (He then could sue them for giving bad legal advice^^)
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only) before signing Stephano even if Stephano was playing with M and had an agreement about a future contract with them.
I guess taking some time to cool his head before answering coL and / or making a (second) flaming statement was a really bad idea, huh ! (yeah, I wasn't a big fan of M first statement either)
As a matter of fact, the stream was about an important cup and it was impossible to delay it. The SC2 manager said on this stream he didn't have the time to answer to coL yet (work + stream) and that it'll have to wait to the day after (tuesday = today).
they negotiated for like 18 days. why would coL contact [M]? at the time no contract was binding Stephano to [M], so some random promise to keep playing with the team doesn't hold. you don't contact a team about a non-existing contract, the only reason they'd ever contact the team would be to buy out the contract or ask for a transfer or whatever. so making him sign at 5am means absolutely nothing, hey if coL was still making offers at that time, [M] management should've still been around to counter-offer or Stephano should've woken them up to ask for a counter-offer or fucking wait until management got up to hear from them? You do realize that the decision was up to Stephano ultimately since there was absolutely nothing keeping him from staying in [M]? if there was coL would've contacted [M] about buying him out.
I understand the entire "yeah we had an event planned". How about making a release before? or after? well it eventually came and said absolutely nothing so it's not like we missed out.
generally when you're not guilty you'll go out of your way to prove it. so many things Lwl has said makes so little sense I'm just starting to wonder if [M] ever had a course in PR.
1) We first contacted Stephano on September 1st, 2011. We stated our interest in retaining his services and he stated that he was in no way contracted to Millenium and was interested in joining compLexity.
On September 21 2011 01:27 daviday wrote: The situation is pretty simple.
Lwl said that everything was done overnight. Basicly there was talk between stephano and complexity for quite some time and counteroffers by millenium.
This is proven by statement of Jason from Complexity quoting stephano " i changed my mind ".
So basicly , making an offer at 5PM and making him sign right away is just nor really professional from Complexity. As the Last offer was made overnight , its clear that millenium had no idea about it. Why ? ( When you try to recrut a player from ANOTHER team and ANOTHER country and dont want to have this kind of thing hapen you just dont make them sign overnight and annouce it right away that just common sens... )
Its simple and i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb. That prove that they didnt knew shit about that last offer.
Second point :
Why would stephano leave a team such as Millenium with tons of great players , for One like Complexity with only low-pro... only for money ? Probably... Or to be the star of a team where he have 10 times the level of his teamate ? I dont think that ideal for complexity.
Last thing , as for complexity having more money that millenium or making stephano travel alot... we'll see about that when ATLEAST one of their player come to play a tourney in europe.. Also stephano explicitly said that he DOES NOT WANT to go to korea on long term. ( unlike ToD )
.. i cant see stephano loosing to mutch here..
He will be going back so his team , with former team mate , with people whom he trust and when his 1 year contract will be over.. he will have NO PROBLEM finding another team if he wants too. Cause no team would pass on stephano he is to good , even after this drama. But anyway in 1 year everyone will have forget about that.
Last but not least , great move from millenium witch are sure to keep him 1 whole years .GG
I would actually say Complexity is pretty comparable to Millenium player-wise once you take Stephano out of the equation.
As for the actual dealings. Complexity claims to have been in talks with Stephano and in the process of making offers for 18 days, the actual signing was done late and night but that honestly doesn't mean much if you consider the 18 days prior to consider, additionally, most gamers have little issue with being up at odd hours, not sure if Stephano is one such player but the whole "They strong armed him in the middle of the night" thing is really fucking stupid.
Your massive hyperbole in general makes it really hard to take you seriously but at this point I'm not sure who is trolling and who is simply an imbecile.
Unless you can specify what "disorienting tactics" Complexity used to "influence Stephano into making a bad decision" I think Complexity deserves an apology.
My Guess is they met with stephano recently and made him physically sigh the contract. and now they're interested in having a discussion to resolve it.
My only quaffle is that Now stephano doesn't have his own stream anymore They made him delete his JTV stream and now uses Dailymotion "Millenium TV" stream..
What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it".
Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
On September 21 2011 01:37 Gooey wrote: What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it".
Just to brighten the mood
<3 TL
I'm pretty sure TL did everything they could to try and keep HuK, they just don't compare financially to EG. I doubt it was like "yeah you should go HuK!"
To me it feels like with this story Millenium has gotten a really bad reputation more than they already had (Adelscott in EG master cup) and now with this "statement" they are trying to regain good reputation. This is JUST my opinion.
On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote: Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
They weren't coy at all when they went on stream yesterday and dragged Col's name through the mud.
I don't know why you even brought EG into this discussion either. Millenium deserves no congratulations for anything they have done wtf.
On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote: Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
You can be transparent and still be classy, which is more or less what Complexity has been doing so far. I don't you can really commend Millenium for not being transparent to avoid drama considering the mud slinging that went on yesterday from their end accusing Complexity of using "disorienting techniques" to sign Stephano. That's not keeping it professional, that's not keeping confidential issues off the internet, that's slinging mud and then not following up with an explanation on what the fuck they mean.
On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote: Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
I agree, I would love if it was kept professional and the gossip was kept off of the internet by both parties.. But that's the point... they brought the battleground to the stream. They slandered coL and mocked the situation live to their viewers.
On September 21 2011 01:37 Gooey wrote: What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it".
Just to brighten the mood
<3 TL
Liquid has been showing these other teams up with regard to trading players. Do you remember when EG took Puma and the controversy that came with it? What about when Liquid took hero? Lol.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
Seriously. What the fuck is wrong with you Millenium. Can we stop with the flowery meta-speech?
I don't know... maybe they want to said they don't care about all this drama
You said coL made a transparent statement ? well, no one besides Stephano can tell if it's true or not. For me it's doesn't make sense. They obviously didn't contact Mill about this.
Who is to blame? Everyone !
- coL, for not contacting Millenium about this contract before Stephano signing it - Stephano, for signing and then changing is mind - Millenium, for trying to protect their player when he has already sign something and poor communication
So, personally I admire Millenium, they are not afraid of the "Flee in fear of our US lawyer power !!" coL is making.
On September 21 2011 01:38 tyCe wrote: Some organizations don't want to take their confidential legal issues to the battleground of the Internet. Stop blaming Millenium for being coy on the matter when in fact it is probably better that this thing is sorted out by the two teams and their mutual position finalized before a clear statement is released. Not everyone is impressed by EG or iNcontroL style "announcements" which later turn out to be half truths swallowed by bullshit and hype.
I don't think SC2 esports needs more drama about unprofessionalism, so I think we should congratulate Millenium for keeping the gossip to the trash mags and the other parts of the internet. I'm sure a real statement will be forthcoming once everything or initial negotiations have been resolved.
Yeah people asking for explanation are really funny, why do you even think you deserve more informations ? All that this forum has been doing is troll about some absurd french patriotism and shit like that, like they stated clearly they don't really give a fuck about what a bunch of trolls think about the situation, just take a look at the thread of 150 pages...ridiculous
Amazing how many ESPORTS freaks there are on these forums now, this isn't the end of the world guys. Although I agree there should be more transparency between teams and the public in regards to players and contracts this kind of thing is really not stopping ESPORTS getting mainstream and to even say it is is ridiculous.
On September 21 2011 01:46 bmml wrote: Amazing how many ESPORTS freaks there are on these forums now, this isn't the end of the world guys. Although I agree there should be more transparency between teams and the public in regards to players and contracts this kind of thing is really not stopping ESPORTS getting mainstream and to even say it is is ridiculous.
Actually a world where players sign contracts with a team one day and then completely ignore them the next day is kinda the end of esports.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
Seriously. What the fuck is wrong with you Millenium. Can we stop with the flowery meta-speech?
I don't know... maybe they want to said they don't care about all this drama
You said coL made a transparent statement ? well, no one besides Stephano can tell if it's true or not. For me it's doesn't make sense. They obviously didn't contact Mill about this.
Who is to blame? Everyone !
- coL, for not contacting Millenium about this contract before Stephano signing it - Stephano, for signing and then changing is mind - Millenium, for trying to protect their player when he has already sign something and poor communication
So, personally I admire Millenium, they are not afraid of the "Flee in fear of our US lawyer power !!" coL is making.
This is absolute nonsense, you're making an assumption based on no response from Millenium. That means nothing. Complexity has given their side of the story, Millenium have basically said, Complexity are assholes, they disoriented Stephano and he now realized his mistake. They're not explaining anything, they're not elaborating on whether they were actually contacted, and they aren't doing anything but straw-maning and slinging mud.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
Seriously. What the fuck is wrong with you Millenium. Can we stop with the flowery meta-speech?
I don't know... maybe they want to said they don't care about all this drama
You said coL made a transparent statement ? well, no one besides Stephano can tell if it's true or not. For me it's doesn't make sense. They obviously didn't contact Mill about this.
Who is to blame? Everyone !
- coL, for not contacting Millenium about this contract before Stephano signing it - Stephano, for signing and then changing is mind - Millenium, for trying to protect their player when he has already sign something and poor communication
So, personally I admire Millenium, they are not afraid of the "Flee in fear of our US lawyer power !!" coL is making.
This is not about US Law, it's about having been wronged and trying to make it right again (even though I'm pretty sure everyone will lose something if the law is involved, in this case)
Even if Millenium/Stephano are correct in that they have done nothing wrong legally this will most definitely make people think less of them, and rightfully so.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
0. Stephano wants to become a pro gamer for one year, and starting early september, enters negotiations with pretty much every other European team, as well as his current team (Millenium) and some non-European teams (including Complexity).
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). Some TL posters become infuriated, because they don't like the dirty laundry exposure.
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. Some TL posters become infuriated, because they like the dirty laundry exposure.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
If I had to say anything in Millenium or complexity, I would just stop releasing statements from now on until the issue is solved. The Fans know that shit got mixed up and that is enough. Now it`s time for some behind-closed-doors discussions which hopefully lead to a solution both parties can live with.
On September 21 2011 01:53 zul wrote: If I had to say anything in Millenium or complexity, I would just stop releasing statements from now on until the issue is solved. The Fans know that shit got mixed up and that is enough. Now it`s time for some behind-closed-doors discussions which hopefully lead to a solution both parties can live with.
I guess. I dunno Im inclined to believe complexity at this point because Millenium and Stephano have yet to say anything regarding this. Millenium being really slippery here.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). Some TL posters become infuriated, because they don't like the dirty laundry exposure.
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. Some TL posters become infuriated, because they like the dirty laundry exposure.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
How far do you have to go? this could have happened to Liquid EZPZ
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). Some TL posters become infuriated, because they don't like the dirty laundry exposure.
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. Some TL posters become infuriated, because they like the dirty laundry exposure.
Congrats on "making it simple" with zero knowledge of either team's internal affairs. Stop making rumors/assumptions and wait for Millenium's next "official statement" and hopefully it will actually have content.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
I feel absolutely sure that neither Millenium nor coL has made any big errors in this drama. I believe Stephano himself fucked up. I hope he gets to pay for that. Seems silly to be signing contracts worth this much without thinking twice.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
How far do you have to go? this could have happened to Liquid EZPZ
As far as I know, Liquid is far less aggressive about recruiting, they make sure everyone is okay with it. But I could be wrong.
Honestly, how dumb do you think we are? That form of typical bla bla might work, with the people around, to me, and to the rest of TL its basicly like waving a red flag. Man, french arrogance on mighty display once again.
On September 21 2011 02:00 Benkestok wrote: Honestly, how dumb do you think we are? That form of typical bla bla might work, with the people around, to me, and to the rest of TL its basicly like waving a red flag. Man, french arrogance on mighty display once again.
Please keep these national remarks out of this thread or you will start a shitstorm like the last game.
Why does almost every french poster on Mill's side have less than 15 posts? Do they only post on Millenium's posts because of some sort of national pride issue or what... They haven't told the public anything yet, so whatever they are telling the French isn't really helping.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
On September 21 2011 01:59 Tryxtira wrote: I feel absolutely sure that neither Millenium nor coL has made any big errors in this drama. I believe Stephano himself fucked up. I hope he gets to pay for that. Seems silly to be signing contracts worth this much without thinking twice.
I would have been willing to agree but Millenium's PR fuck-ups yesterday sort of change all that. Neither Millenium, nor Stephano have really explained what happened and all Millenium has done is slung mud and said they don't give a fuck because they're protected by French law.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter.
There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
How do you make someone sign a contract. I'm going to assume they didn't hold a gun to his head. People need to grow up and take responsibility for their actions. All this drama could be avoided if teams waited a few days for things to settle down before making announcements.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that). Some TL posters become infuriated, because they don't like the dirty laundry exposure.
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity. Some TL posters become infuriated, because they like the dirty laundry exposure.
Congrats on "making it simple" with zero knowledge of either team's internal affairs. Stop making rumors/assumptions and wait for Millenium's next "official statement" and hopefully it will actually have content.
For the Millenium side of the story, I am merely retranscripting (and translating for some parts, as not everything that has been publicized in French has also been publicized in English) what can be found on their website, or what they said during yesterday's streamed shows.
If you are referring to Complexity, a late statement reads, "[they] evaluate [their] legal options with French counsel.", a notion which was completely absent before. He also admitted on these very forums that there may be holes in Stephano's contract, in regards of French law.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano (for many days), and convince him to sign during night time in EU
What i'd like to know as a fan of eSports is if we're going to see Stephano show his top3 in the world Zerg skills at more international events? It would be a pitty if this is not the case. I really hope Millenium or Stephano can awnser this question (I know about the comment from the translated stream thing, but like a more in-depth awnser where we might expect him beat up his opponents in the comming year).
coL would have likely been the best team for Stephano to shine as a Sc2 star, but i can imagine it's quite a hard decision to go full time pro and sacrifice other stuff in life. Especially if his parents aren't supportive of his decision (= speculation)(and don't understand the potential Stephano has to win a lot (of money)), they probably had another future in mind for him. We need to remember that eSports is not a long term career and this kid is still 18.
(I'm not saying that signing a contract and than changing his mind was smart, but i have a feeling this wasn't completely his own decision. Ultimately i just hope Stephano will be happy with whatever decision he makes, and for my personal interest i hope that decision will be to persue progaming so that i can see this amazing player play.)
On September 21 2011 02:02 skYfiVe wrote: Why does almost every french poster on Mill's side have less than 15 posts? Do they only post on Millenium's posts because of some sort of national pride issue or what... They haven't told the public anything yet, so whatever they are telling the French isn't really helping.
having only slightly messed with the french scene I can only say this: they're keeping it to themselves. when you hear them talk about the "french esports scene", it's tournaments that have at least 95+% french players and is only casted in french. they make no effort to reach out or go international. so it's quite obvious TL means nothing to them and they just post on french sites. My guess is someone posted "hey, they're bashing [M] and Stephano, go support them by making an account on TL and defend them" on all french sites.
that'd be why most of what they say makes no sense
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
Simply put. I don't believe them. Complexity came right out with their side of the business. Millenium has yet to make a statement outside of this hippy-dribble they call a statement.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
They spoke with Stephano, who according to them said he wasn't contractually obligated to Millenium, which is pretty fucking weird in the foreign scene at this point. So, when they make an offer to Stephano with 18 days of negotiation, he can pretty much be the one who relays expecting a better offer.
This is actually sort of kinda similar to the EG/TSL situation, only in that situation there was a massive cultural divide whereby most Koreans don't consider it necessary to sign a player that you can not offer money and Puma did not even really talk to his team about it, they were completely unaware that he was considering other options. Milleniums claims they have a big wallet but for some reason they didn't have Stephano on a contract.
Millenium was aware that Stephano was being made offers, and as someone who was technically a free agent and someone who was mulling over his future career, they failed to follow through. Complexity did, and they got a signature from him.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
the only thing that's relevant is this: was Stephano under a signed contract with Millenium? coL claims that he said he wasn't. if he truly wasn't, there's no need whatsoever to go through Millenium to acquire Stephano.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
the only thing that's relevant is this: was Stephano under a signed contract with Millenium? coL claims that he said he wasn't. if he truly wasn't, there's no need whatsoever to go through Millenium to acquire Stephano.
He is with Millenium, that's not changing. The issue at hand is how much should Stephano or millenium grease the palms of complexity.
From what I understand Stephano made a choice and later changed it. Most contracts do have a period where either party can back out, and so I guess, either this contract with Col didn't have it, which would somewhat worry me, or it did and the issue people have here is the fact that he resigned with Mil without telling them.
For those arguing that time doesn't play a factor, it definitely does. Even if you spent 18 days, you could have 18 days thinking about something and still make the wrong choice. Considering that studies say driving while tired has the same or worse impact as driving drunk, I think how aware/awake someone is plays a huge part in their ability to make decisions.
The issue I see here is not the 'breaking' of the contract but just the lack of communications between the two/three groups. I won't stop watching Stephano cause he's a good player, and from what I understand/heard during the Sheth charity stream, he only planned on doing SC2 for a year to make money for med school. So if he goes to whoever better suits him to provide him for his goal, all the power to him.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
Can you explain how Mil performs counteroffers to Stephano if they don't know what the current offer is on the table? How do you counteroffer an offer that you don't know exists?
Why else would Stephano be quoted (with logs to back it up) as saying "Don't worry, I won't change my mind". It just doesn't add up. You can't explain away 18 days of logged back and forth negotiating.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter.
There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect.
They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations.
However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
This whole thing could have been avoided if Stephano had just manned up, made a decision, and owned it. All this flip-floppery is kiddie crap, he had plenty of time to carefully consider his options. This whole shitstorm is his fault imo, the two teams were just fighting to keep or acquire a desirable player, which is to be expected.
Personally I believe Millenium is handling this very in appropriately and are trying to dodge the blame bullet and use this opportunity to boost their popularity, site activity and stream activity. I don't believe Millenium TV was getting a steady 2k + viewers when ever they streamed. Personally all i smell is shadiness between Millenium and Stephano.
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter.
There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect.
They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations.
However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
I don't Complexity has explicitly stated there were three-way negotiations but there is no reason that there should have been. Complexity and Millenium were both offering Stephano deals over a period of 18 days based on prior statements. They don't need to talk to each other, Stephano is the key person here because there are currently no real agents in Starcraft 2.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
No, we mean over 18 nights. It doesn't matter if Millenium was unaware that Stephano had taken the final offer, if they're truly interested in keeping their player, they have made sure to have Stephano contact them so they could match Complexity's offer. Stephano saw an offer from Complexity, took it, now Millenium comes in, resigns him and says they aren't offering him any more their previous contract.
There were 18 days leading up to the signing, yeah he didn't fucking put one letter at a time and sign it over a period of 2 weeks, but that's not how you consider the negotiations. They were in talks for 18 days, the signing obviously happened in 1, how long that final offer was on the table is irrelevant.
On September 21 2011 01:55 Deshkar wrote: So annoying and sad to see all of these appearing recently on the scene. So much open mud-slinging and inability to follow contracts =/
Kudos to Liquid on releasing HuK and acquiring HerO in a respectable and admirable manner.
As far as we can tell Complexity did everything by the book and in front of Mill.
They didn't.
Llewellys (Mill Manager) said on Millenium TV Stream that he was aware of various teams speaking with Stephano. That's all.
According to him, there wasn't any offer / counteroffers bidding war, because coL didn't even bother to speak with Millenium staff ...
They just spoke with Stephano, and convince him to sign during night time in EU
If that's going by the book ...
Can you explain how Mil performs counteroffers to Stephano if they don't know what the current offer is on the table? How do you counteroffer an offer that you don't know exists?
Why else would Stephano be quoted (with logs to back it up) as saying "Don't worry, I won't change my mind". It just doesn't add up. You can't explain away 18 days of logged back and forth negotiating.
that's the thing ! according to Millenium, there hasn't been any counteroffer bidding war because Mill wasn't aware of any offer ! coL didn't even spoke to them. Maybe Stephano was trying to bid himself during negociation with coL :D making up offers from Mill ? The only counteroffer they could made was the day after, reading coL news and learning that during the night their player signed something.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
"we" so the french scene is defending mill and strphano or what? this is retarded mill not releasing an official statement with some content and now a bunch of french ppl coming to tl to defend mill? really?
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
Totally agree. Finally some sense :D it's so obvious Mill wasn't aware of coL last offer !! otherwise they wouldn't have waited an announcement to make a counteroffer !
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter.
There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect.
They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations.
However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
Complexity has not reason to negotiate with Mill as Stephano was not on contract with them. The way these things work is: Col offers something to Stephano. Stephano goes to Mil and says hey they offered me more I am going to pick them, then Mil says wait hold on we will offer you more than they did. Then he goes back to Col and says, actually now Mil is offering me this.
Explain to me why it is complexity's responsibility to go and tell Mill, "hey stephano said he is going to sign with us, this is your last chance to make counter offer~~~"
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
What do you expect ???
If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
Legally Mil have done nothing wrong it seems, but does that mean they cannot at least apologize and take responsibility? maybe not monetary compensation but something...
I don't see how coL did anything wrong here, it all lays on the fact that Mil and Stephano breached a contract, albeit legally, doesn't mean that it should be done, and sets a standard in eSports that should be met with extreme concern.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
^^
I'm beginning to side more and more with CoL after deciding to not pick a side for awhile.
Thats why I think Mill shot themselves in the foot with this post. Its obvious what side people on the fence would lean to after this, why did they post it anyway?
Maybe they will come back and try again though, that would be pretty neat right about now.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
"we" so the french scene is defending mill and strphano or what? this is retarded mill not releasing an official statement with some content and now a bunch of french ppl coming to tl to defend mill? really?
From what I read on the Millenium webpage, some people are indeed REALLY defending M and saying things like "TL is full of US people bashing on Millenium" etc...
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
What do you expect ???
If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
No matter how you put it though. Complexity has a very convincing argument that Stephano for contractual purposes is their player. Obviously Complexity has zero interest in forcing Stephano to do anything. But then what is the point of a contract? Nope, something has to stick eventually.
Lets be serious here, Stephano or Millenium will only get a small slap on the wrists. Dragging this out is very detrimental to Mill and the rest of its players.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
What do you expect ???
If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
After the whole TSL incident and everyone knowing to put their players on contract, why the fuck would you need to contact a team that Stephano is not contractually obligated to?
Generally you would contact a player's agent, since they don't have agents, you contact them. Their team can always be more interested in the benefit for the team rather than the player, an agent is hired specifically for the player, in the absence of an agent, you approach the player. The player relays offers and can even say, "Hey talk to Mill about this shit".
On September 20 2011 23:31 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I would like to see a real explanation. From Stephano too.
It's simple really.
1. Complexity signs a contract with Stephano at ~3am French time and anounce it publicly.
2. The Millenium League of Legend staff discovers Complexity's statement on the internet at 5am and make their own surprised statement.
3. During the following day, Millenium staff realizes that said contract is most likely an illegal employment contract in the eyes of French law, and persuades Stephano to ignore it, signing a (legal) employment contract with them instead.
4. Millenium anounces their signing of Stephano publicly, while doing snide remarks about the illegality of Complexity's contract (and disregarding the fact that said contract was not merely a French employment contract, but an international contract - some of the snide remarks would later be retracted upon realizing that).
5. Complexity publicly states that their own contract is legally binding, which it most likely is in the eyes of US law, and that they are investigating their legal options. They add their own snide remarks about the mediocrity of the Millenium legal staff (and failing to acknowledge that getting legal advice knowledgeable in French law *before* signing a French player would have been a prudent decision).
6. Millenium issues a statement according to which they are now attempting to cut the dirty laundry exposure, and resolve the matter in private with Complexity.
You skipped the part where there was a half month of negotiations, offers and counter offers before Stephano signed with complexity. As stated by complexity and not refuted by Mil
While I do not think this is relevant (as he negotiated with half the planet), I have amended my post to reflect this.
What you have included is not the fact that is pertinent to the case so I can see why you thin it doesnt matter.
There were 18 days of contract negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano. Your first point makes it sound like out of nowhere they suddenly decided to poach Stephano in the middle of the night... which is incorrect.
They indeed did not make the decision that suddenly, and I accept that it could somehow change the perception of the issue, which is why I have edited my post to add the existence of previous negotiations.
However, it was denied on the French stream that there were any three-party negotiations. Complexity negotiated with Stephano, and Millenium negotiated with Stephano, but we have different statements on whether Complexity negotiated with Millenium at all. My account only lists events that have been admitted by both parties.
Complexity has not reason to negotiate with Mill as Stephano was not on contract with them. The way these things work is: Col offers something to Stephano. Stephano goes to Mil and says hey they offered me more I am going to pick them, then Mil says wait hold on we will offer you more than they did. Then he goes back to Col and says, actually now Mil is offering me this.
Explain to me why it is complexity's responsibility to go and tell Mill, "hey stephano said he is going to sign with us, this is your last chance to make counter offer~~~"
It isn't.
It absolutely isn't. Why would you think I said that ? I am not criticizing that it wasn't done, I am simply stating that, according to one party, it wasn't done. Your previous message said that such a negotiation happened (to quote, "negotiations specifically between Mil Col and Stephano"), and that is what I am refusing to present as fact.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
Ofc they were really really frustrated, this goes without saying, but this is the buisness. But it was Stephano's choice to not wait for them to make another offer. coL was not in the wrong.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
Why ? because otherwise on team will annouce the player as theirs. And the other will try everything to retains him after.
but from a french PoV, they do things behind closed doors and not publicly.
the first thing they responded with was that coL "disoriented" stephano into signing the contract. sounds like closed doors to me.
I agree. This about sums up this whole situation for me. If there's no legal implication for this, I cease to care, other than, in my mind, (which matters to no one on here) Stephano has lost some respect from me and the community. Show me the last time he won a tournament and I'll start to care some more.
People do dumb things, which is a value judgement based on my culture and upbringing. Given some pretty big cultural and legal differences between the US and France, I really don't think there's much of a story here. Sucks for Col, i guess, although it's not like they spent a bunch of money on Stephano in the time it took for him to change his mind... (see damages).
I'm not saying this story shouldn't be published, I just don't see it as a HUGE issue warranting all the speculation and replies from the community... then again, people like drama... <shrug>
On September 21 2011 01:37 Gooey wrote: What's not so sad about this, is that when you contrast this with what HuK did, it just makes Liquid look that much better. TL gave him the opportunity to make it big, nurtured him and watched him grow into one of the best protoss players in the world. When a life-changing financial offer came his way to take him to the next step in his career, Liquid said "hey man, go for it, no hard feelings, you deserve it".
Just to brighten the mood
<3 TL
I'm pretty sure TL did everything they could to try and keep HuK, they just don't compare financially to EG. I doubt it was like "yeah you should go HuK!"
But in all fairness the transaction went completely smoothly with almost no animosity between TL and EG, this situation on the other hand is a complete clusterfuck.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
hehe if Millenium wanted to keep Stephano that bad they would've signed him a long time ago, maybe I don't know, back from his WC3 days? you're full of fallacies bro.
No contract = No bounds. Stephano was a free agent under the [M] tag, nothing more. Stop the tears already.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
wow snap post of exactly what I was thinking well done.
Yeah its really bad when you say your not legaly doing anything wrong when you have the crazy french foreign contract law to hide behind. doesn't make you a dick at all.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself.
I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.
Seriously what am I reading? This statement is absolutely nothing and is pointless. Maybe people will care once Mill releases a statement with actual substance.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.
I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
What on earth are you talking about..
Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
Contract or not contract its obvious millenium HAVE to know , to be able to react in time..
On one hand you are asking for more professionalism but on the other hand only people with contract get to attack like professional ?
I can really see coL think like that , but thats not comming from people who want a more professional esport. That comming from Buisness Sharks at BEST.
On September 21 2011 02:02 skYfiVe wrote: Why does almost every french poster on Mill's side have less than 15 posts? Do they only post on Millenium's posts because of some sort of national pride issue or what... They haven't told the public anything yet, so whatever they are telling the French isn't really helping.
No i think they don't post here because french poster on Mill's side are teens and they're not fluent in english. BTW they're not fluent in french too. Everybody with a minimum of good sense is able to understand that training in Korea with MVP team is better for any player than training in France with a league of legend team.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
Although i hope the best for Stephano were ever he ends up... The statements available on this site make me believe Stephano was not signed with Millenium, so how can a player be stolen? Secondly, Millenium might have been unaware of the final offer, but it's Stephano's decision to sign with coL instead of waiting until the next day. Complexity can't be blamed for it. I understand Lewellys frustration, but if it's true that Stephano didn't have a contract with Millenium it's non of their business how coL engages Stephano.
It would be really helpful if their was a fully translated VoD of last night Millenium streams, because at this point we don't have a good account from Milleniums or Stephano's side as non-french speaker.
- Col started negotiations with Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute. - After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there nothing wrong with that; it's standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on. - Stephano signed the contract. - When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there no Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are just totally different), so they made a counter offer that Stephano accepted.
I feel like a lot of people misunderstand what a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable. There no or good guys, team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the end of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re Virus #trollmodeoff) It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) a businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still love sc2 no question about that.
I for one am really dissappointed. Stephano was about t have a huge oppourtunity with complexity, a company and team I can trust to do whats best for their players. Also with the rumor of Naniwa going to join to? It was going to be amazing for all of esports. The korean training of Naniwa and skill of Stephano could of trickled down into such an amazing team making the foreign scene a bit more competitive. Now we get statements like this that tell us nothing. Millenium, you really messed up, you have probably lost many supporters and many possible future supporters. Release another statement telling the facts because if the facts are on your side you might have a chance of not being a bad memory for esports. Im am just so dissappointed. Sorry if my post is super negative.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
What on earth are you talking about..
Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
... -_-'
No one can competently argue with this logic anymore.
CoL asks Stephano up front if he is contracted with Mil in any way, Stephano says no. Yet, he isn't teamless?
We stated our interest in retaining his services and he stated that he was in no way contracted to Millenium and was interested in joining compLexity.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
why do you keep bringing out this argument? what difference does it make that the contract was signed at 3am french time? Stephano was still awake. if [M]'s management was so scared of losing Stephano they should've made offers as long as Stephano was up.
Why ??
Because if Millenium would have been AWARE of the last offer they would have counter offre OR talk to stephano , like they must have done the next day.
i Dont understand how people can really think that IF millenium was really knowing the last offer they would have WAITED for complexity to annouce stephano to make a counter offer ? For what ? Free drama ? That just plain dumb.
??? It was Stephano's choice, if he wanted another offer from millenium he should have waited for it. coL had every right to announce Stephano since he signed the contract and released statements like "im looking forward to it" or something.
Hehe so millenium had to have their player stolen and stfu about it ? Without trying to keep him ? When the last offer have been done behind their back without the possibility to answer ?
I can really well understand how frustrated Lewellys must have been , when for 18 days there are talk , offer and counter offer , and suddently , no more..
I can only make me think of a crappy move from coL
Although i hope the best for Stephano were ever he ends up... The statements available on this site make me believe Stephano was not signed with Millenium, so how can a player be stolen? Secondly, Millenium might have been unaware of the final offer, but it's Stephano's decision to sign with coL instead of waiting until the next day. Complexity can't be blamed for it. I understand Lewellys frustration, but if it's true that Stephano didn't have a contract with Millenium it's non of their business how coL engages Stephano.
It would be really helpful if their was a fully translated VoD of last night Millenium streams, because at this point we don't have a good account from Milleniums or Stephano's side as non-french speaker.
Yes. TBH that would be VERY GOOD.
Because most of the report from those video that have been written by french on TL are full of lie / miss interpretation , and doesnt account for what he said . TBH even on french Esports website his saying are far from accurate.
For example he NEVER said he wont answer to coL mails.
He just said that at the present time , he was to busy doing the cast + answering question + organising the King of the Hill with hasuobs to answer the email. and that he would answer depending on the content of that email. Or let his supperior in the team answer. He later said that obviously if it was offending and stuff he would reply the adress of the nearest court.. but thats understandable.
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
What on earth are you talking about..
Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
Contract or not contract its obvious millenium HAVE to know , to be able to react in time..
On one hand you are asking for more professionalism but on the other hand only people with contract get to attack like professional ?
I can really see coL think like that , but thats not comming from people who want a more professional esport. That comming from Buisness Sharks at BEST.
This was unanimously sorted out and agreed upon back in the EG/TSL fiasco, if your player isn't contracted to you, he isn't yours. TSL subsequently put all their players on a contract.
If he's not on contract, he is a free agent who may be playing for you, but there is no requirement to talk to you about his contract. When a player is contracted, you talk to the team and they have a possible incentive to selling you the remaining portion of the contract, in the absence of a contract they really get nothing out of letting a player go unless they want that player to succeed and it isn't that far fetched to expect a team to be biased towards themselves or more interested in their own success.
This is generally where agents come in, because their interest is the player, but in the absence of an agent the person who is most interested in the player's success in the player himself, so you contact the player. It's not fucking rocket science.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
I think most of us will feel like this. If you;re going to release a statement, one would presume that it would have some(atleast a little) detail instead of just saying that it's really complicating and any internet gossip is lies.
On September 21 2011 02:44 Rigou wrote: From my Point of view:
- Col started negotiations with Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute. - After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there iS nothing wrong with that; it's just standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on. - Stephano signed the contract. - When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there iS no Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are just totally different), so they made a counter offer that Stephano accepted.
I feel like a lot of people misunderstand WhatiS a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable. There iS no Bad or good guys, iSjust that team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the End of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re Virus #trollmodeoff) It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) iS a ReaL businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still Love sc2 no question about that.
P.S: sorry for the English, 'tried my best
You got the first part wrong, both sides were in contact with one another and were counter bidding. coL never said sign or else, Stephano signed the contract all by himself therefore signing a legal document concerning his work. Him and Mil then went back on the contract and now could possibly face legal action.
And yes e-sports teams ARE a corporation trying to make money. This is why the whole going back on the contract is such a big deal. I
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself.
I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.
Then again, not saying it wasn't legal, just saying it wasn't classy. Why do TL transfers happen to be so smooth ? because they are made with the 3 parties having full knowledge of what's going on. coL deliberately chose to make Stephano sign at 3 AM so M wouldn't be able to build a proper answer.
You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.
I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Edit : this would be my last post, tired to argue over the same thing over and again because some don't want to listen. As of now, i'm going to enjoy this tournament : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265710 (what ? a great tournament with most of best EU players organized by M ? heresy, how could this happen, M is such a bad team with no strong reference in EU or in the world !)
they act as though there was some sort of wall of 'Miscommunication' present, but from what i have read, Stephano was communicating with both sides for an entire week, and couldnt make up his mind........ That is NOT classified as failed communication, more like a failure for stephano to commit to something. Not saying i blame him, i would demand a month + to make such a big decision.... or i woulda figured out something BEFORE my contract ended...........................
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately, you know, instead of streaming your ladder practice.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
A really easy way to combat "gossip" on the internet is to provide reason for us to think otherwise. All Millennium has done is say that there might be more than meets the eye, yet provide nothing of substance. Piss poor job in handling this situation.
I read this on [M]'s site, surprisingly a lot of french guys are bashing Millenium for the lack of decent PR. I mean there's a few LOL WE CANT LET THEM AMERICANS STEAL OUR STAR PLAYER but there's also quite a few good posts:
Vous devez absolument communiquer sur cette affaire comme le ferait n'importe quelle team pro, cette attitude silencieuse est destructrice pour l'image du E sport Français et pire encore, elle expose votre joueur aux attaques violentes des fans de SC2 d'ici ou d'ailleurs. Personne ne comprend pourquoi Stephano n'a pas respecté le contrat qu'il a signé avec CoL, personne ne comprend pourquoi vous vous improvisez porte parole du E sport français, merci mais on se passerait bien d'histoires de ce genre. C'est pas Asterix sur Shakuras, vous devez protéger votre joueur d'abord, parce qu'à ce rythme personne ne voudra coller un sponsor sur son maillot. L'entière communauté de SC2 vous regarde et dans le meilleur des cas se demande vraiment ce qui ne tourne pas rond en France. Si vous voulez vraiment développer l'E sport en France essayez de faire en sorte qu'on ne passe pas pour des guignols, pour le moment c'est raté.
(crude translation):
You absolutely have to release a statement about this situation like any other pro team would, this silent attitude is destroying the French esports image and even worse exposing your player to violent attacks from SC2 fans from here or elsewhere. Nobody here understands why Stephano didn’t respect the contract signed with coL, nobody understands why you’re claiming to be the spokesperson for French esports, thanks but we could do without situations like these. It isn’t Asterix on Shakuras, you got to protect your player first, because at this rhythm nobody will want to stick a sponsor on his shirt. The entire SC2 community is looking at you and in the best case scenario is asking themselves what the hell is going on in France If you really want to help esports in France how about you try to make sure we don’t look like imbeciles, at the moment you’re doing it wrong.
The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!
The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!
So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ? Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
Maybe but....
Stephano - " Don't worry I am not changing my mind again"
Followed by execution of a contract. I'm sorry but it doesn't get any more black and white than this. Coupled with the fact that Millenium or Stephano have yet to make a statement on this when Complexity came out with one in well under an hour, it looks really bad.
What do you expect ???
If complexity doesnt want those kind of things to happened to them they just need to talk with the team aswell to be sure they will not try to change the players mind , like millenium did. That comon sens.
No matter how you put it though. Complexity has a very convincing argument that Stephano for contractual purposes is their player. Obviously Complexity has zero interest in forcing Stephano to do anything. But then what is the point of a contract? Nope, something has to stick eventually.
Lets be serious here, Stephano or Millenium will only get a small slap on the wrists. Dragging this out is very detrimental to Mill and the rest of its players.
Without delving into the drama (and just to clarify I consider both, all 3 if including Stephano, sides shady) was the contract actually binding ? I have pretty big doubts that col would have much luck going the court route.
This was probably "international" contract (I doubt French entity signed the contract on behalf of col) and just that fact makes it highly unlikely they would be able to actually force the contract even if it satisfied all French system requirements and I highly doubt it actually did considering the state of esports business. Another thing is we have no idea what the contract between col and Stephano says. That it was signed means nothing, important is the date it becomes binding and the rules/conditions of withdrawing from the contract. Some of them might be defined by French law and do not even have to be mentioned in the contract to be implicitly present. So for people saying col actually came clean, no they did not, they seemingly provided more information, but far from enough to be sure of how all this happened and what is the true current state of the situation. Another thing is Stephano 18, not sure if I should trust liquipedia on this ?
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
On September 21 2011 01:04 SwEEt[TearS] wrote: quite the blanket statement you made there.
In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation.
good one, especially when Stephano and the team manager were both streaming on the day the entire thing unwrapped. "can't read my emails, im streaming" yeah right
Exactly. That had me baffled more than anything else about Millenium's actions.
Damn, what baffled me more was the fact that coL didn't even contact M (no, they didn't, reread statements carefully, they contacted Stephano only)
As mentioned previously, as of the time of this post both Millenium and Stephano have refused to answer our emails requesting a discussion of this serious matter.
Okay. I re-read it carefully. I'm not sure if you're selectively ignoring some critical words in the above sentence, or genuinely missed them, but either way you're wrong.
Anything else?
They didn't contact M before Stephano signed his contract. They only did it once public announcements were made about Stephano joining coL then retracting to join M. It may be okay to do that in the real world to make sure you have the best chance to sign the player under the other team's nose, it doesn't make it less bad mannered.
I thought everyone was already in sync with this, it was only Korea that had to catch up and they did after the EG/TSL incident. If a player isn't signed to your team, he is a free agent and can be approached as such. Teams can have more of an interest in their own success over a player's success, the best representative for a player would be a paid agent, but in the absence of that, the one who has the best interest of the player in mind is generally the player himself.
I'm not going to go Dignitas and ask if I can have Naniwa because Naniwa is no longer on Dignitas, you talk to the player.
Then again, not saying it wasn't legal, just saying it wasn't classy. Why do TL transfers happen to be so smooth ? because they are made with the 3 parties having full knowledge of what's going on. coL deliberately chose to make Stephano sign at 3 AM so M wouldn't be able to build a proper answer.
You're talking about something completely different. Please read the posts you quote carefully and follow the line of thought, otherwise you're in strawman territory.
I was speaking to Mil's refusal to reply to coL's emails once Mil announced Stephano's change of heart and breached coL's contract (they were streaming yesterday). I was NOT referring to any correspondence they may or may not have had before that moment.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Edit : this would be my last post, tired to argue over the same thing over and again because some don't want to listen. As of now, i'm going to enjoy this tournament : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=265710 (what ? a great tournament with most of best EU players organized by M ? heresy, how could this happen, M is such a bad team with no strong reference in EU or in the world !)
Because TL has their players on contract. Think back to EG/Huk/TL, EG had to contact TL so they could buy out the remainder of Huk's contract, I have no doubt that TL was a class act throughout negotiations, but while they're losing out on a player they have the potential to gain on the selling of his contract, if a contract has run out or is about to run out then it's still good to talk to the team but at that point the player should be expected to say, "Hey, I'm getting all these offers, can you guys match them, I want to stay with you".
In the case of a free agent, there's absolutely nothing wrong in either department for me, in going to the player directly because as I said earlier, the team may not be interested in what could benefit the player the most, but what could benefit them the most. This is why agents exist, but in the absence of an agent, you contact the player.
I don't that it wasn't "classy" either, it was pretty standard procedure because of the reason I stated above, if a player isn't on my team and I don't want him to be on yours, I can sabotage the deal. If he's on my team and I fuck up the deal, by the time the contract is up, you can approach him as a free agent and he'll have no interest in re-signing with me.
On September 21 2011 02:55 Dandy_Moustachu wrote: Someone can explain me :
The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!
The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!
So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ? Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?
There was a massive cultural gap whereby Korean teams were known to generally not sign their players, if the incident was repeated now, people would likely be less sympathetic to the "TSL-esque" party because it's been established that you have contract your players, TSL now has all their players contracts.
This is not the case in the foreign scene, it is known that if a player is yours, he is on contract, and if it wasn't in France, then the EG/TSL fiasco should have made it clear to everyone. Sign your players, or they aren't yours.
That is the difference, there is no massive culture gap here, there is a precedent, there is no reason not to have your player contracted. Furthermore, Millenium had knowledge that Stephano was being approached by teams, TSL's coach had no fucking clue that Puma had any intention on leaving or had received any offer.
Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
There isn't? My bad then?
He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?
That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.
If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
The more interesting part to me is that coL's announcement had a quote from Stephano (one line, but still). The "come-back" announcement of Millenium doesn't have one.
And I was hoping that we could hear Stephano's opinion on today's statement, but still no word from him. Makes me wonder if this comeback annoucement was a bit rushed itself...
On September 21 2011 02:55 Dandy_Moustachu wrote: Someone can explain me :
The evil team EG offer a contract to Puma who was with TSL but does'nt have a contract and was just bound by some honor contract => Puma accept the contract from EG => Evil Geniuses are soooo evil !!!!
The team Col offer a contract to Stephano who was with Millenium but does'nt have a contract and has just said a few day before that he'll stay with them for the next year => Stephano accept the contract from Col => Millenium strike back => Stephano change his mind and want to stay with Millenium => Millenium are soooo evil !!!!
So what the difference ? The evil team is always the one who was prefered by the player in the end ? Or it's just that Korean team are a wonderful world of carebear and the french one are ... french (and people aren't accustomed to french who don't surrender quickly ?
EG did it "wrong" in that they didn't talk to TSL about it at all
coL DID talk to Mill as they were bidding back and forth between the two of them.
That is the big reason no communication between the two teams in TSL vs EG and tons with coL and Mill.
If you have doubts you simply don't sign a contract, that is what makes it a contract. Try to get out of your mortgage without tons of problems, it's the same idea.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
There isn't? My bad then?
He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?
That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.
If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
He did sign a contract, and he is technically in breach I believe.
so now that they are reloading the double barrel shotgun they ask for time out and can't we all just get along and grow esportS? I'd sue them for slander, etc etc, and I'd sue the kid for breach of contract assuming the contract was well written which I'm guessing it wasn't.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
There isn't? My bad then?
He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?
That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.
If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
I did not say anything about signing. He might have as well did that, that does not mean he breached it by withdrawing from it and signing contract with Millenium. To judge that we would have to see the contract and probably even then we would need lawyer's opinion.
On September 21 2011 02:44 Rigou wrote: From my Point of view:
- Col started negotiations with Stephano without informing Millenium. It's totally fine as he had a "free agent" statute. - After 18 days, they asked him to sign it or leave it. Again there iS nothing wrong with that; it's just standard business after a certain time you’ve to make gambles and move on. - Stephano signed the contract. - When Millenium learned it, they made a counter offer, knowing that the contract wouldn't be valid regarding french laws (there iS no Way an US employment contract work in France. Employment regulations are just totally different), so they made a counter offer that Stephano accepted.
I feel like a lot of people misunderstand WhatiS a (e)sport-team. It's a corporation and you have to make it sustainable. There iS no Bad or good guys, iSjust that team NEEDS players to obtain sponsors and to make the whole thing work, at the End of the day you have to pay the salaries (#trollmodeon unless you’re Virus #trollmodeoff) It doesn't mean that they don't care about e-sport, they just have a work to do. I mean SirScoot (sorry to bring him here) iS a ReaL businessman that will make to keep EG in a leading position, and he still Love sc2 no question about that.
P.S: sorry for the English, 'tried my best
You got the first part wrong, both sides were in contact with one another and were counter bidding. coL never said sign or else, Stephano signed the contract all by himself therefore signing a legal document concerning his work. Him and Mil then went back on the contract and now could possibly face legal action.
And yes e-sports teams ARE a corporation trying to make money. This is why the whole going back on the contract is such a big deal. I
Yes the first part is controversial because both teams claim different fact: Col that they were in contact and Mill. that they learned with the press release. But honestly i really do not see why Col. would have talked to Mill. if Stephano wasn't bind by any means to them.
Again i'm making assumptions here as everybody. when you say "they did't" it's actually 'they claimed they didn't" because it's all we have.
On September 21 2011 03:00 Denar wrote: The more interesting part to me is that coL's announcement had a quote from Stephano (one line, but still). The "come-back" announcement of Millenium doesn't have one.
And I was hoping that we could hear Stephano's opinion on today's statement, but still no word from him. Makes me wonder if this comeback annoucement was a bit rushed itself...
T'es con ou quoi ?
Stephano talked for 30 minutes on millenium TV thats worth all 2 lines annoucement..
These days, a load of BS can pass as a statement.. it's unbelievable how PR-less these people at Millenium are.. I guess their aim is to be just a local team, and sure as heck they are reaching their goal.. I think this team should be banned from international competition -- and Stephano along with them -- bunch of retards.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
There isn't? My bad then?
He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?
That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.
If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
I did not say anything about signing. He might have as well did that, that does not mean he breached it by withdrawing from it and signing contract with Millenium. To judge that we would have to see the contract and probably even then we would need lawyer's opinion.
Complexity's contract would have had to be written by a complete imbecile for this to be the case so I doubt it. It would be an utterly massive loophole if a player was allowed to have another contract going simultaneously.
That's like Microsoft forgetting to include a clause in their contract saying that I can't work for Apple... at the same fucking time as I'm working for Microsoft.
Just want to chime in: The statement from col says they would make an offer, and that mil would make a counter offer. Not that they were in direct contact with mil. It is completely possible that stephano himself was the middleman. (And completely reasonable too, as has been pointed out countless times in this thread.)
On September 21 2011 03:00 Denar wrote: The more interesting part to me is that coL's announcement had a quote from Stephano (one line, but still). The "come-back" announcement of Millenium doesn't have one.
And I was hoping that we could hear Stephano's opinion on today's statement, but still no word from him. Makes me wonder if this comeback annoucement was a bit rushed itself...
T'es con ou quoi ?
Stephano talked for 30 minutes on millenium TV thats worth all 2 lines annoucement..
In french. On a stream full of french.
Clearly, we're all informed of what was said during this stream.
edit: if at least you [M] fanboys could agree to the same story, we might know a bit more.
So many contractual disputes in eSports recently! Pretty crazy. I hope things get worked out between the team, since this is really unnecessary drama.
This is a side note, but can anyone tell why Millenium's team is spelled that way (versus Millennium)? Is it just a typo? I don't think you spell Millennium with one n in French, so I'm a bit perplexed about the origin of the team name.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
I did read carefully, tyvm. coL didn't bother informing M in any way before the col / S contract was signed, why would M bother answering coL once Stephano decides to stay in M ? It's kind of a "you do it to me, I do it to you" answer. (very stupid behavior from both sides if you ask me , though nothing illegal per se)
Gee I don't know, maybe because he breached a signed contract and it has legal ramifications for all parties involved? And far reaching effects in terms of the importance of contracts in esports? That's kind of important business to reply to immediately.
Again we're talking about something completely different from the original post you quoted me on.
There is actually no proof that he breached any contract.
There isn't? My bad then?
He didn't electronically sign a contract with Complexity and then later break that by changing his mind and signing another contract with Mil?
That's why we're here discussing it after all. The proof hasn't been released but I doubt coL would start this if he didn't actually sign a contract.
If he didn't do that then I'll change my post, but then I'm not sure we'd all be here arguing over it if he didn't.
I did not say anything about signing. He might have as well did that, that does not mean he breached it by withdrawing from it and signing contract with Millenium. To judge that we would have to see the contract and probably even then we would need lawyer's opinion.
Complexity's contract would have had to be written by a complete imbecile for this to be the case so I doubt it. It would be an utterly massive loophole if a player was allowed to have another contract going simultaneously.
That's like Microsoft forgetting to include a clause in their contract saying that I can't work for Apple... at the same fucking time as I'm working for Microsoft.
Why are you assuming this is the only way there is no breach. You can withdraw from contracts you know. Or the contract is in fact against the law and is invalid. And some other cases are still possible where there is no breach although most can be packed under "illegal therefore invalid". I am saying people here are jumping to conclusions. As always I might add
Look, SC2 is starting to look more and more like a real sport: We talk more about transfers drama/investors/refereeing(balance) than about the actual game! Yea, ESPORTS!
I think a lot of people are missing something. Ppl keep saying " This shows nothing" it shows a lot , It shows that Mil keeps secrets and coL didn't. Simply put. Its sad ... I hope they tell the truth because I wont support Millenium and I really think they lost a lot of fans just from this. That is the sad part. Millenium TOOK AWAY a great opportunity for a new star player to be born with great money and great tourney aspects in a contract. Then dotn give the fans a reason why. Then call a company that has been doing business with esports since 2003 "internet talk" with an official statement out. Come on now ... come on now.. Burn the bridges you will need one day i guess is the moral of the story.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
1. I believe you, from first hand experience. I have no clue whatsoever why you're trying to be so elitist with your 2-pump chump esports scene but clearly if your players were that amazing we would've been interested a long time ago. 2. I never said it was Millenium's fault? Considering they haven't said anything relevant in the past 48h I won't even jump to conclusions. 3. [M]'s and it's players's opinions mean absolutely nothing if they dont even release a statement that makes sense or tries to explain something. You want your exclusive french scene, congratulations you might have gotten it!
coL.MVP > Millenium. Korea > France. I'd say that's a huge opportunity he missed. If he IS quitting in a year, wouldn't it be in his best interest to make as much money as possible? Oh wait, nvm now he can't he'll be limited to a 1k audience.
Wow, got nothing out of this statement.. All I got was we'll talk to coL, internet gossip is often not true, things can be more complicated than it seems. Really? Gosh, thought internet was the bible! That gives me absolutely 0 information on what, how or why these things happened. Millenium is losing more and more credibility.. they really need to fix this situation if they want to save their face.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Everything u just said makes no sense at all.. coL a company that has been in business since 2003. HAS NEVER HAD a complaint in contracts ever that I can think of, and I have been following them since before they where coL... never once have i heard a player talk bad about that organization ever... You said FALSE on a huge opportunity? So if he preformed well enough in the US with MLG and more tourneys he can travel to. You dont think that coL would send him to korea? They sent drewbie over.. what has drewbie won latly? ..... I will wait for you to re spawned.. My point is they would have sent him to Korea he would be a real real "pro gamer" and all because of a contract. Did you not read wat coL said... he would have been the highest paid sc2 player right now.. thats not a missed opportunity?.. this is a business this is what they are going for MONEY and a chance to prove themselves. Think you need to rethink some things before posting away.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
1. I believe you, from first hand experience. I have no clue whatsoever why you're trying to be so elitist with your 2-pump chump esports scene but clearly if your players were that amazing we would've been interested a long time ago. 2. I never said it was Millenium's fault? Considering they haven't said anything relevant in the past 48h I won't even jump to conclusions. 3. [M]'s and it's players's opinions mean absolutely nothing if they dont even release a statement that makes sense or tries to explain something. You want your exclusive french scene, congratulations you might have gotten it!
coL.MVP > Millenium. Korea > France. I'd say that's a huge opportunity he missed. If he IS quitting in a year, wouldn't it be in his best interest to make as much money as possible? Oh wait, nvm now he can't he'll be limited to a 1k audience.
I'm pretty sure he won't change his mind even if you try your best. Nationalist bias is just too strong.
On topic: Yep they pretty much said nothing on that statement so we only have one side of the story on the forums (statement on stream speaking FRENCH to FRENCH VIEWERS is not giving statement to the rest of the webz, unless you expect the whole community to speak french).
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
1. I believe you, from first hand experience. I have no clue whatsoever why you're trying to be so elitist with your 2-pump chump esports scene but clearly if your players were that amazing we would've been interested a long time ago. 2. I never said it was Millenium's fault? Considering they haven't said anything relevant in the past 48h I won't even jump to conclusions. 3. [M]'s and it's players's opinions mean absolutely nothing if they dont even release a statement that makes sense or tries to explain something. You want your exclusive french scene, congratulations you might have gotten it!
coL.MVP > Millenium. Korea > France. I'd say that's a huge opportunity he missed. If he IS quitting in a year, wouldn't it be in his best interest to make as much money as possible? Oh wait, nvm now he can't he'll be limited to a 1k audience.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
At this point it feels like Mill is the most dodgy, wonderchild a bit less. Everyone talks about how Sthepano is this supersmart kid that can play SC2 with his left pinkie while operating with his left elbow, so I don't buy this story about a confused kid.
This statement is nothing, just word without meaning.
On September 20 2011 22:43 Roggay wrote: Can we have a statement from Stephano? He is the only to know the whole story.
No, he is still too disoriented from coL
LOL!
Thaaaaat sounds like a meme being born....
Not sure that all this fuss is warranted from a player who has a time limit of one year for being in programing anyway. Do you really want to invest attention on somebody, no matter how good, who will be gone before the next presidential election?
On September 21 2011 03:20 Mazer wrote: You can pretty much ignore daviday from now on as he's not rational at all. He honestly thinks Stephano staying in France is not a missed opportunity.
Do you even know what he wants to do and why do you care as much ? Maybe he has changed his mind and won't go to Korea, maybe Millenium will send him there or maybe he will just play in European tourneys etc...
Reminds me of the people who blamed Seth when he left FXO. It is his choice, not yours.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
Shiii... I was gonna go to devry to get my business degree, Who knew Daviday's School of Business would be so SUPER! /sarcasm
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
*before hiring an officially unemployed person wearing competitor provided clothing, be sure to inform the competitor of your intentions.
I personally think that CoL went about this completely professionally, because while this is similar to the EG/TSL thing in that an uncontracted player was taken, the culture of Korea and the rest of the world is quite different.
What the... what did I just read? It felt like there should have been some sort of statement in all that text, but I ended up walking away with absolutely nothing. Basically just, "We want to resolve the issue and don't believe all the gossip you hear". Okay, but is that calling Complexity's statement gossip, or simply not addressing Complexity's pretty transparent record of events + course of action?
Still waiting on a statement from Millennium regarding the Stephano controversy.
On September 21 2011 03:20 Mazer wrote: You can pretty much ignore daviday from now on as he's not rational at all. He honestly thinks Stephano staying in France is not a missed opportunity.
Do you even know what he wants to do and why do you care as much ? Maybe he has changed his mind and won't go to Korea, maybe Millenium will send him there or maybe he will just play in European tourneys etc...
Reminds me of the people who blamed Seth when he left FXO. It is his choice, not yours.
He was arguing that Stephano is better off developing with Mill while coL has a much more global presence especially with their MVP partnership. I never said a word about Stephano's personal intentions.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
Just a heads up, but if anything at this point you are just making things look worse to outsiders. Your (and others) posts make Mil and the community surrounding it look EXTREMELY xenophobic and nationalistic. I don't really have a problem with that if that really is the case, but it won't make the whole situation right in other people's minds.
If anything it will make people think that Stephano was pulled aside after he signed teh contract and was reminded/threatened about about French pride, and how joining an evil American team is bad for the country. If that is somehow actually the case, and he is too scared to say anything about it, then that REALLY IS a shame.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
Chill AND Kennigit trolling this thread? my life is complete.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
1. I believe you, from first hand experience. I have no clue whatsoever why you're trying to be so elitist with your 2-pump chump esports scene but clearly if your players were that amazing we would've been interested a long time ago. 2. I never said it was Millenium's fault? Considering they haven't said anything relevant in the past 48h I won't even jump to conclusions. 3. [M]'s and it's players's opinions mean absolutely nothing if they dont even release a statement that makes sense or tries to explain something. You want your exclusive french scene, congratulations you might have gotten it!
coL.MVP > Millenium. Korea > France. I'd say that's a huge opportunity he missed. If he IS quitting in a year, wouldn't it be in his best interest to make as much money as possible? Oh wait, nvm now he can't he'll be limited to a 1k audience.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
practical? so I guess you have zero ambition? you do realize that the french esports scene is stagnating, at this point you're not expanding at all. I can't see a difference from when I was involved in it (and that goes back to about a year ago).
I honestly doubt any international player will join Mill after this, you're going to be left with french players and maybe some european players. They won't believe trolls/gossip, but they surely will believe the amazing lack of PR and how badly they handle drama on the BIGGEST esports forum there is.
any shit show? you saying the french are easily entertained? lol.
many people have hinted at it, but I'll come out and say it: Millenium strong armed Stephano into signing a contract. You guys can say what you want, but this is what it looks like to me.
Stephano signs with coL, starts getting to know his new team. Then suddenly the next day he changes his mind the next day?
If he really did it, it just looks bad on him. It's pretty low to sign something and then go back on it, that reflects poorly on Stephano. But come on, do you really think he just changed his mind on a whim? After a few hours of talking to his new team? Did they even practice any?
I think its just illogical to even think this that is what happened. It doesn't even make sense. People don't just magically turn down a great offer over night. At the end of the day, Millenium can claim he changed his mind, but I for one am not buying it. Someone got to Stephano. I mean why is Millenium being so defense about this if its not them thats involved? They didn't say this was all Stephanos' decision and we had nothing to do with it? Instead they say this:
"Although we are very confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law"
Don't they mean Stephano? Some food for thought guys. Just sayin
On September 21 2011 03:32 decaf wrote: If anything, I feel sorry for Stephano to have to go thru all of this.
My preliminary opinion is to actually blame Stephano for all of this. Assuming Complexity's record of events is 100% true, the guy signed with Complexity, then ignored his contract and re-signed with Millennium. Wtf?
I'm keeping it preliminary since I'm still waiting for Millennium to actually say something that has meaning, and not a complete side-step like this thread OP is.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
Just a heads up, but if anything at this point you are just making things look worse to outsiders. Your (and others) posts make Mil and the community surrounding it look EXTREMELY xenophobic and nationalistic. I don't really have a problem with that if that really is the case, but it won't make the whole situation right in other people's minds.
If anything it will make people think that Stephano was pulled aside after he signed teh contract and was reminded/threatened about about French pride, and how joining an evil American team is bad for the country. If that is somehow actually the case, and he is too scared to say anything about it, then that REALLY IS a shame.
On September 21 2011 03:36 stormfoxSC wrote: What the... what did I just read? It felt like there should have been some sort of statement in all that text, but I ended up walking away with absolutely nothing. Basically just, "We want to resolve the issue and don't believe all the gossip you hear". Okay, but is that calling Complexity's statement gossip, or simply not addressing Complexity's pretty transparent record of events + course of action?
Still waiting on a statement from Millennium regarding the Stephano controversy.
This. Sounds like Millenium is just holding back simply because they know they are in the wrong. Embarassing, and extremely unprofessional to have a "statement" without an actual statement.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
Just a heads up, but if anything at this point you are just making things look worse to outsiders. Your (and others) posts make Mil and the community surrounding it look EXTREMELY xenophobic and nationalistic. I don't really have a problem with that if that really is the case, but it won't make the whole situation right in other people's minds.
If anything it will make people think that Stephano was pulled aside after he signed teh contract and was reminded/threatened about about French pride, and how joining an evil American team is bad for the country. If that is somehow actually the case, and he is too scared to say anything about it, then that REALLY IS a shame.
OFcourse he was pulled by millenium...
Shouldn't Millenium have told col that they were going to try to sign him? I mean, it's the #1 rule in the Daviday Guide to Business...
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
On September 21 2011 03:44 archonOOid wrote: Case closed.
Lets focus on what really matters, namely, starcraft 2 and those superb players, stephano included that make e-sports great.
How the fuck is the case closed? Nothing has been resolved. This is actually pretty important eSports because professionalism and contracts matter.
Yes, on one hand it's an 18 year old kid making a stupid decision and company being shady in encouraging him to renege on his contract, I don't want it to become a massive cluster fuck and hope it can be sorted out with further incident. On the other hand, we need to make it clear that eSports is not a bunch of kids who have no interest in honoring contracts and that there are repercussions for being unprofessional.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
I must have missed the part where Chill was hating on the French...
Oh wait, that's because he never made a statement hating on the French.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
Just a heads up, but if anything at this point you are just making things look worse to outsiders. Your (and others) posts make Mil and the community surrounding it look EXTREMELY xenophobic and nationalistic. I don't really have a problem with that if that really is the case, but it won't make the whole situation right in other people's minds.
If anything it will make people think that Stephano was pulled aside after he signed teh contract and was reminded/threatened about about French pride, and how joining an evil American team is bad for the country. If that is somehow actually the case, and he is too scared to say anything about it, then that REALLY IS a shame.
OFcourse he was pulled by millenium...
Right... but at 18 even if you are legally an adult chances are you are still young enough where you can be pressured into things against your will...
If he is pulled aside into a room from Millenium, and is given a talking to. Then suddenly changes his mind and starts singing the praise of the people who pulled him aside... Can't you see how that could be viewed negitively?
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
Read again. I am absolutely not hating on the French. I am hating on Daviday's bias.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Irrefutable logic sir!
OnTopic: Mill keeps dodging and it's pissing me off.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
Read again. I am absolutely not hating on the French. I am hating on Daviday's blind bias.
Read yourself again do you really think that the people stupid enough to blame that on french laws and french people will understand that ? I don't think so
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
Read again. I am absolutely not hating on the French. I am hating on Daviday's blind bias.
Read yourself again do you really think that the people stupid enough to blame that on french laws and french people will understand that ? I don't think so
Fortunately I don't post every comment wondering if idiots will understand it or not.
I can't believe nobody made a remark on the fact TL must hate the french since it's only using blue and white as it's color and lacks the red needed to make the red flag.
oh wait, Chill's name is red, all is good.
edit: oh wait he can be misquoted as saying he doesn't like the french, we're doomed
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
Read again. I am absolutely not hating on the French. I am hating on Daviday's bias.
I read the whole exchange and saw no generalisation about "being french matters" before yours. At best you're putting words in his mouth. At worst you're hating by generalisation.
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be.
"Internet gossip" is fueled by non-statements like this.
On September 21 2011 03:53 Eiduart wrote: If a french signs an american contract, which law kicks in? the french law or the american law?
How about if an american signs a french contract, which law kicks in?
I think it depends on how the contract was written. I think there are international treaties to place the juristiction into the contract that France have signed into. Who knows if they were in the contract or not though.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
Read again. I am absolutely not hating on the French. I am hating on Daviday's bias.
I read the whole exchange and saw no generalisation about "being french matters" before yours. At best you're putting words in his mouth. At worst you're hating by generalisation.
Fine, I will admit I hate Daviday by generalisation.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
So Stephano signs a contract with coL, signs another contract with Mill, and Mill is trying to extort money of coL to have Stephano? Am I reading this right?
...we would also like to emphasize our good will to see this situation solved the right way.
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be.
"Internet gossip" is fueled by non-statements like this.
Actually internet gossip started yesterday with a 100+ page thread with the "transparent" statement by Complexity.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
You don't have rights to people you haven't contracted. Nothing was stolen.
If they knew he was in talks with another competitor, they should have hurried up and signed him themselves.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
More than agreed... It is funny how CoL even mentioned that the negotiations had taken place with Milenium knowing about Stephano too. This statement by Millenium only makes them see even worse as they do admit that they offered a contract to Stephano after he had signed with Complexity and they knew it. So disappointied at the wrong doings of Millenium and Stephano....
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
There's nothing unethical about directly approaching a free agent who is not contractually obligated to a team, if he had a personal agent and they bypassed him then perhaps that could be seen as unethical, but I don't think that was the case. This was only even an issue in the EG/TSL case because of all the cultural factors and that people saw it as taking advantage of the Korean culture's avoidance of "unnecessary" contracts. After this point it's pretty much been established that you have to have a player on contract to have any claim to him, it's quite simple.
I can't really say they did anything unethical based on the information we have.
Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
He isn't hating on the French; he is hating on a guy's flawed perspective on things.
On September 21 2011 04:04 Chill wrote: Conversely, I think it's very unethical to inform someone he can dissolve a contract based on (arguably) an oversight and then contract him yourself.
Not to mention: Totally ignore them until 2 days later {After the shitstorm}
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
Yes i think its Stephano's fault. So unprofesional.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think without knowing all the facts, it's easier to see Stephano as being young and not making the soundest decisions. He's barely an adult so it's easier to forgive.
On the other side, we have a business capable of drafting and executing a contract. It's hard to feel sorry for them.
This issue has grown larger than just Mill vs coL. It has implications that resonate for all of e-Sports. If international contracts don't mean anything, then e-Sports as a profession doesn't mean anything either.
I hope that the community can put aside feelings of nationalism or loyalty to one team or another and look at it impartially; Stephano signed a contract with coL, which Mill had full knowledge of. For whatever reason, he decided to renege on that contract. He is an adult. He is in breach of contract and, for the sake of legitimatizing e-Sports, he must be held accountable for his actions. Even if there is nothing that coL can do through the law, we as a community can't let this slide.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
lol... every second thread turns into a totally different debate full of hate it seems...
I still can't understand people saying *yeah Col was very unprofessional because they didnt ask Mill first and talked Stephano into a contract...* blablabla
If you sign an insurance contract because the nce guy in the insurance office told it would be best for you; would you tell them to go off after you found out that they claim too much money? no, you cant! why not? because you SIGNED A CONTRACT THAT WAS LEGALLY BINDING.
I'm not sure if stephano is 18, but i think he turned that age this year, right? So if he signed a contract that was legally binding, then it is HIS FAULT! And HE should stand straight for the confusion that occured. It's not Complexity's fault for *talking him into it over night'
come on, guys...
edit: i got age ninja'd! so I don't know if you can sign a contract like this with 15, I think the parents have to confirm, too?
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes, because not being on a contract means that neither party has any obligation to do anything.
After the EG/TSL incident it was pretty much unanimous that you need to have a player on contract in order to lay claim to him, otherwise you have no right to complain if he's approached directly. I already established why this was the case, in the case of a free agent, he has his own best interests in mind, a team may be interested in getting the best deal for them, not for him.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
If you are a team without a contract, and then a player of yours leaves and SIGNS A CONTRACT, then yea, you don't really have a leg to stand on. I've never lived in France, but I'm willing to bet that contracts are not a foreign concept there...
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
On September 21 2011 03:36 stormfoxSC wrote: What the... what did I just read? It felt like there should have been some sort of statement in all that text, but I ended up walking away with absolutely nothing. Basically just, "We want to resolve the issue and don't believe all the gossip you hear". Okay, but is that calling Complexity's statement gossip, or simply not addressing Complexity's pretty transparent record of events + course of action?
Still waiting on a statement from Millennium regarding the Stephano controversy.
This. Sounds like Millenium is just holding back simply because they know they are in the wrong. Embarassing, and extremely unprofessional to have a "statement" without an actual statement.
Have you been in the real world ? Most public statements are words without meaning. Because public statements are manipulation tools, Millenium might have determined that at this point saying nothing specific is better from PR point of view than saying something (even if they would not be in the wrong it is often better to say nothing).
And why people assume that col statement is actually better. They as easily could lie, then it comes down to what is worse lying or statements without meaning. I don't know. But I assume col lies and Millenium lies or at least none of them says the full truth.
On September 21 2011 03:36 stormfoxSC wrote: What the... what did I just read? It felt like there should have been some sort of statement in all that text, but I ended up walking away with absolutely nothing. Basically just, "We want to resolve the issue and don't believe all the gossip you hear". Okay, but is that calling Complexity's statement gossip, or simply not addressing Complexity's pretty transparent record of events + course of action?
Still waiting on a statement from Millennium regarding the Stephano controversy.
This. Sounds like Millenium is just holding back simply because they know they are in the wrong. Embarassing, and extremely unprofessional to have a "statement" without an actual statement.
Have you been in the real world ? Most public statements are words without meaning. Because public statements are manipulation tools, Millenium might have determined that at this point saying nothing specific is better from PR point of view than saying something (even if they would not be in the wrong it is often better to say nothing).
And why people assume that col statement is actually better. They as easily could lie, then it comes down to what is worse lying or statements without meaning. I don't know. But I assume col lies and Millenium lies or at least none of them says the full truth.
because you generally get caught when you lie about facts, whereas if you never give anything definate you can't get called out because, you didn't actually say anything. its the reason no politician actually gives any information on the campaign, so that way he can do what he wants and not be bound by concrete details
On September 21 2011 04:11 mcc wrote: .. And why people assume that col statement is actually better. They as easily could lie, then it comes down to what is worse lying or statements without meaning. I don't know. But I assume col lies and Millenium lies or at least none of them says the full truth.
Because "people" are entitled to a statement from everybody in less than an hour after anything happens. Just get over it, it is the way internet mobs work.
On September 20 2011 22:21 Whiplash wrote: Col released a transparent statement of their view of everything that happened, you guys still haven't.
I prefer them not to carry all the contract wars to the public but keep it quite, it's obvious they rushed their actions yesterday and now both sides need some time to figure out how to get out of this shit. It already stirred enough hate like it is. But of course the sensationalist starcraft community craves for some new accusations.
On September 21 2011 03:36 stormfoxSC wrote: What the... what did I just read? It felt like there should have been some sort of statement in all that text, but I ended up walking away with absolutely nothing. Basically just, "We want to resolve the issue and don't believe all the gossip you hear". Okay, but is that calling Complexity's statement gossip, or simply not addressing Complexity's pretty transparent record of events + course of action?
Still waiting on a statement from Millennium regarding the Stephano controversy.
This. Sounds like Millenium is just holding back simply because they know they are in the wrong. Embarassing, and extremely unprofessional to have a "statement" without an actual statement.
Have you been in the real world ? Most public statements are words without meaning. Because public statements are manipulation tools, Millenium might have determined that at this point saying nothing specific is better from PR point of view than saying something (even if they would not be in the wrong it is often better to say nothing).
And why people assume that col statement is actually better. They as easily could lie, then it comes down to what is worse lying or statements without meaning. I don't know. But I assume col lies and Millenium lies or at least none of them says the full truth.
Yes, but that shit makes no sense.
If Complexity's attempt at being transparent was a complete farse, then Millenium could easily have given their side of the story and said it was a complete farse. Instead they use ambiguous as fuck terms and make bogus claims without backing them up. Right now, we only have Complexity's statements to go on because Millenium has given us jack shit.
Complexity gave their side of the story and Millenium responded with, "They disoriented Stephano and their contract is shitty". That's just mud slinging and leaves us with basically nothing to go on other than Complexity's statements, furthermore Millenium's management hasn't addressed those statements directly to say that they aren't true either.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Either Stephano is really really immature or Complexity did something to make Stephano sign. Just some facts : - 5 days ago Stephano says in an interview for esportsfrance.com that despite contacts with a lot of teams he will stay with Millenum the next 12 months. - The day before he accept complexity contract, Millenium announce a weekly show by Stephano on their webtv - Stephano signs at 3 or 4 am CET and Millenium does not know about it.
After he signs : - just look at Stephano reaction in the complexity news (1 line). - Xeris seems surprised that Stephano changed team
And about Millenium, remember when Huk was with them and joined TL. It was done without drama in normal manner.
The one to blame here is Stephano, but I really think that complexity is not as clean as they say...
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
contracts might be fairly new to esports, but they are not new to people. A kid might not have the full legal grasp of a contract, but most people will know at a pretty young age that signing a contract carries with it a legal obligation. SC2 players didn't just appear from a bubble.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Legally, and ethically, yes, it means players have literally no obligation to them whatsoever.
You realize a contract is a two-way street, right? Look at what you're saying. What if Stephano suddenly became shit and lost every game. Does the old contractless Millenium have an obligation to pay him? Of course not, they would kick him to the street and no one would blink an eye.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
actually thats exactly what it means in actual sports its the same way, player signs with x team for y years if in y-2 years (ie they are still under contract) all offers to the player have to go through the team, generally in the form of trades and draft picks. however after y years are up (contract expires) all offers go directly to the player and the player makes the decision, which is binding. the team they previously played for doesn't get a say in that.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Star players have contracts. Idra/Liquid players/Naniwa etc. would never have had this happen to them - Millenium is the only foreign team that got themselves in this position. They followed this up in the shadiest manner possible while Complexity responded with complete transparency (they've been in eSports for literally ever; they wouldn't bother lying now). Until Millenium fronts up with an explanation they deserve to be hated on; even your French perspective has added literally nothing new to the facts.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
On September 21 2011 04:18 Nitro68 wrote: Either Stephano is really really immature or Complexity did something to make Stephano sign. Just some facts : - 5 days ago Stephano says in an interview for esportsfrance.com that despite contacts with a lot of teams he will stay with Millenum the next 12 months. - The day before he accept complexity contract, Millenium announce a weekly show by Stephano on their webtv - Stephano signs at 3 or 4 am CET and Millenium does not know about it.
After he signs : - just look at Stephano reaction in the complexity news (1 line). - Xeris seems surprised that Stephano changed team
And about Millenium, remember when Huk was with them and joined TL. It was done without drama in normal manner.
The one to blame here is Stephano, but I really think that complexity is not as clean as they say...
I don't know about coL doing anything particularly shady, but good points. Likely they approached him as he was a free agent, and offered him a pretty nice salary. There is no reason why they would wait for his showmatches or anything else to finish before they offer it, otherwise they essentially would never make the deal as I assume he had fairly consistant plans with Mil. Mil likely felt cheated that they were losing a player and tried to convince him otherwise. I agree that Stephano was either acting immaturely, or simply naive during this whole situation.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Dude, Chill is obviously new here and doesn't know that the eSport world has never heard of contracts.
Despite several fucking wake-up calls to get smart to how the world works, why the fuck would you have someone work for you for 4 years and not have them contracted? It's not that fucking difficult to get it done, particularly for a team like Millenium. Teams in Korea had a cultural excuse but here there is none, even if this happened in Korea now there would be none after the wake-up call from the EG/TSL fiasco. If a player isn't on a fucking contract, he isn't yours. It's a mechanism put in place for a reason, it's so that the player has something substantial with which he knows what he will get and what he has to give.
On September 21 2011 04:17 daviday wrote: If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
In your opinion it may be ridiculous, but it doesn't change the fact that it is true.
On September 21 2011 04:17 daviday wrote: Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Contract law has been around for a very, very long time. Contracts in traditional sports have been around for a very long time. Contracts in eSports have been around for a long time as well.
If teams that consider themselves teams and not just merely clans choose to have uncontracted players in the current climate then they are just irresponsible.
1. it have nothing to do with being elitist , it just more practical , making a team , a portal and a community is really hard. Only americain / uk team have enough english speaking people following them for them to create an international community.
3. What i mean is that , if players want / think about joining millenium , they will ask other team member of millenium ( Tarson , Stephano , Adel , Lalush , etc. ) If every promess have been kept by the organisation. I dont belive they care about the gossips/trolls from TL.NET.
Last point Mill >>>>> coL , this team got no good player , maybe Trimaster but thats pretty mutch it. I agree on the " Korea > france " but stephano will go to korea whatsoever... lewelys said it again yesterday. Millenium TV is the most viewed webtv in france , in all category. they have 3.5 - 4k viewer minimum for any shit show they do at anytime of the day.
Also as Lewelys said , he is still allowed to stream on justin TV , in his contract he jut got to stream a certain amount of team on the millenium TV each week, for witch he STILL get all the money.
Just a heads up, but if anything at this point you are just making things look worse to outsiders. Your (and others) posts make Mil and the community surrounding it look EXTREMELY xenophobic and nationalistic. I don't really have a problem with that if that really is the case, but it won't make the whole situation right in other people's minds.
If anything it will make people think that Stephano was pulled aside after he signed teh contract and was reminded/threatened about about French pride, and how joining an evil American team is bad for the country. If that is somehow actually the case, and he is too scared to say anything about it, then that REALLY IS a shame.
OFcourse he was pulled by millenium...
Right... but at 18 even if you are legally an adult chances are you are still young enough where you can be pressured into things against your will...
If he is pulled aside into a room from Millenium, and is given a talking to. Then suddenly changes his mind and starts singing the praise of the people who pulled him aside... Can't you see how that could be viewed negitively?
The same goes the other way. If you claim he is young and easily pressured col could have pressured him also. Both are pointless speculations. And if you go that route any contract he signed will unlikely be enforced by a court as it will be deemed invalid because of possible pressure. Or it will be enforced with extremely small compensation making it not even worth going to court.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
I came in this thread with the intention of making everything you say look silly in one sentence, but now even I have no idea what you are talking about.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
From a business point of view, yes. Complexity has no obligation to contact Millenium - the moral obligation is with Stephano. Guess what, Stephano contacted Millenium. Stop being so fucking stupid.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
I came in this thread with the intention of making everything you say look silly in one sentence, but now even I have no idea what you are talking about.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
I stopped arguing with this guy way back when he said this:
On September 21 2011 01:58 daviday wrote: Im sorry that you guys dont ear millenium side of the story , but we french all have. Since they took alot of time explaining it last night. The first time with stephano himself , and the second time with lewelys alone.
Everything we say are not assumption but simple retranscription of millenium version , wich doesnt seems less credible than the team who make people signs contract overnight.
You mean over 18 nights. Why are so many people forgetting this? Its critical!
No.No.No.No.
You got it wrong. Its not over 18nights its over 1 NIGHTS. How many time do we need to say IT ?
They was offer and counter offer for 18 nights but ONLY the last offer count since that the one that was accepted by stephano. And THAT offer , millenium had no idea about it.
More so , stephano already said he would leave to coL and then changed is mind ( as stated in the complexity message ). So basicly in the head of millenium staff he was STAYING. But there was ANOTHER offer that was accepted / signed OVERNIGHT , without millenium knowhing SHIT.
*sigh*
Why is Millenium entitled to know anything once the player makes up his mind and signs the contract?
Is it the player's fault for accepting the next offer on the spot without turning to the other team again for the 10th time to ask for a counteroffer?
He's not obligated to do that, he said up front himself that he wasn't currently under contract with Millenium. If he signed the contract at 3AM, he signed the contract at 3AM.
If I'm a free-agent superstar player, and I get a six-figure deal from EG, and I sign the contract, does that mean I'm practicing shady morals because because I didn't talk to Dignitas, FXO, and TL first before signing?
Of course not, I'll sign with whoever I want to sign with, whenever I want to sign because I'm a free agent and it's my choice.
Hell some people in this thread are claiming there wasn't even an 18 day negotiating/counteroffering period to begin with, which is a whole other can of semantic worms.
What on earth are you talking about..
Stephano is PART of team millenium even without contract... he isnt teamless.
If this is the part where the disconnect happens, then any further argument is completely futile.
It's like trying to tell someone the sky is blue when they keep insisting it's actually green.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
So Stephano should have a moral obligation to be paid as long as he's playing for them, right? Even if he's bad. Until the end of time.
On September 21 2011 04:08 schaf wrote: lol... every second thread turns into a totally different debate full of hate it seems...
I still can't understand people saying *yeah Col was very unprofessional because they didnt ask Mill first and talked Stephano into a contract...* blablabla
If you sign an insurance contract because the nce guy in the insurance office told it would be best for you; would you tell them to go off after you found out that they claim too much money? no, you cant! why not? because you SIGNED A CONTRACT THAT WAS LEGALLY BINDING.
I'm not sure if stephano is 18, but i think he turned that age this year, right? So if he signed a contract that was legally binding, then it is HIS FAULT! And HE should stand straight for the confusion that occured. It's not Complexity's fault for *talking him into it over night'
come on, guys...
edit: i got age ninja'd! so I don't know if you can sign a contract like this with 15, I think the parents have to confirm, too?
Actually, writing in all caps doesn't give your statements the force of law. I have no idea how German law works, but French law allows you to renege insurance contracts within 15 days (30 days for life insurance). Even a swedish site knows about this.
On September 21 2011 03:56 Omigawa wrote: So Stephano signs a contract with coL, signs another contract with Mill, and Mill is trying to extort money of coL to have Stephano? Am I reading this right?
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
I think the thing you need to remember is that being a progamer is a job to these players. Sure if Stephano loved Mil and wanted to stay with them, regardless of other offers, that's fine. But If I'm playing for a team with no contract, I would feel a little uncomfortable, they could drop me whenever they chose. If a big contract came my way, that pays more (again, this is his job) then of course I would take it, as long as I felt right about the new team. Mil of course could argue with Stephano about his move, but once he signed a contract, they couldn't say anything without buying out the contract from coL.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are completely missing the point.
Would I make a contract for that? No.
Would I then be shocked when my player signed somewhere else? No.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
...Wow.
A player doesn't need to have a contract to have an obligation, however, after he has a contract (with CoL) he has LEGAL OBLIGATION to follow on the contract, just like in any other job on the planet. And transfering a player is strictly a legal thing, the probelem with Puma was the difference in cultures (and I was on EG's side on that, too), the problem here is not that someone simply "acts immoraly", but that someone is acting AGAINST THE LAW, Stephano signed a contract, and than disregarded it completely.
I hope Stephano and Millenium gets sued over this, eSport needs laws to ground it, just like any other form of enterntainment.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
hahaha your the best one you so blind its becoming funny.
IMO after having your player stolen in such a manner you can do whatever you want.. thats it.
This have nothing to do with asking the permission to your competitor... this is SO DUMB to say such a thing... All the millenium staff knew people tryied to get stephano , and they werent the only one as ALL the top EURO team wanted him. He mentionned Acer for example who were particulary harsh.
Its just OBVIOUS that if the other team is out of the talk , she will try everything to keep the player.. especially when thing have been done in such a hurry...
If its only a buisness question ,and not an ETHIC question or a dirty move from coL then , millenium acting is just buisness aswell. In that case they just won , thats buisness , GG no need 25543543 pages.
Ok, I'll try to make it simple: Stephano was not stolen from Mil, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT with Mil when he signed the deal with Col, do you understand. Just because he was playing under their tag does not mean he was contractually bound to them. Same thing happened when EG signed Puma, he WAS NOT UNDER CONTRACT to TSL, so EG didn't steal Puma. In both cases they were free agents who were playing under a team tag with no contract. I'll say it again, they were both FREE AGENTS when they signed their contacts, hence neither EG or Col stole anything. They weren't obligated to tell the other teams what they offered. If the player wants to go back forth between the teams trying to up the offers, that's on him. It has nothing to do with the teams per say.
Omg for the LAST TIME :
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
So Stephano should have a moral obligation to be paid as long as he's playing for them, right? Even if he's bad. Until the end of time.
` I wonder how old the dude is (daviday). Seems to not understand that a contract is an agreement between two parties and it makes up the basis of human society. Whether they are written or not, they have to be respected....
DO A PLAYER NEED TO BE UNDER A COUNTRACT TO HAVE OBLIGATION ? AT LEAST MORAL OBLIGATION ??
OBVIOUSLY NOT.
do you understand better in capslock ?
I get your point about the LAW stuff and everything , and i totally agree with you and the other canadian guy. But transfering a player for a team to another is FAR from being only a legal thing.
That what you seems all to forget. That why there was a problem with puma , etc.
On September 21 2011 04:26 Apom wrote: Actually, writing in all caps doesn't give your statements the force of law.
Please daviday listen to your compatriot and stop trolling.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
Never been a big fan of M considering that they have Adelscott, but the way they've handled this and the attitude it seems they have to the entire eSports scene that is outside of France is appalling. There's no chance of me changing my opinion on them now lol
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
Even if that were the case, tough shit dude. Korea learned this lesson a few months ago. Was the French community not paying attention.
Contract your players or don't be surprised when they are approached as free agents.
On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote: If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made.
im not sure about that, but i doubt that his would be especially without an impartial third party as a witness.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
MoOnan is French, isn't he? I am sure there is/was a French player last season in the NASL that as French and under a contract who was not Stephano...
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
No, he is the first with a real worker contract (CDI). And it may even not be true because moman had this kind of contract too AFAIK (but not only to be a player).
On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote: If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made.
im not sure about that, but i doubt that his would be especially without an impartial third party as a witness.
Apparently Stephano said that he made a verbal contract with miL on stream?
On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote: If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made.
Where are you getting that he had a verbal contract with mil? Their statement doesn't make that case.
The closest I can find to that is this:
On September 20 2011 22:18 Millenium wrote: As you may now know, it has been announced yesterday that Stephano had been hired by team Complexity, and a few hours later, that he had finally decided to sign a permanent position contract with us, Millenium, under conditions previously fixed with him (without any intermediate overbidding).
In terms of timeframe, this still means that mil's alleged agreement happened after the coL agreement.
On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote: If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made.
Well nobody is sure if there was a verbal contract between Stephano and Mil before he signed with Col. All we know is that Stephano told Mil that he would be staying with them, which can be taken as intent instead of an actual verbal agreement. There is a difference between the two. Just telling them he would stay with them w/o any actual terms being discussed isn't a verbal contract.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
MoOnan is French, isn't he? I am sure there is/was a French player last season in the NASL that as French and under a contract who was not Stephano...
Oh you mean MoMan , in that case yes , But that another situtation , he was doing part time programmer part time working at an internet cafe and playing under this Internet cafe Tags. That doesnt really make him a programmer imo.
On September 21 2011 04:06 daviday wrote: Okay okay , so basicly when you are a team without contract you are just a salary / expense provider , and you have no right.
=> LoL
Maybe in the US its how it works but not here sorry , or you accept to be the asshole.
I understand how you can be angry at millenium , etc.. but the only one at fault here is stephano.
Yes of course that's how it works. If I pay a kid $20 to cut my grass I don't expect him to tell me when he's going to stop because he got an engineering job in Texas.
Come on. Jesus Christ.
HAhaha what you say doesnt even start to compare with the situation WAKE UP please.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Do you follow esport since sc2 ? Because contract is a Very very new thing in esports. I belive most of the team still dont have contract / or worthless contracts. That doesnt mean players have no obligation to them...
Esports is esports as a whole , its not the team with contracted players that rules them all...
Esports is new, and yet, contracts have existed for hundreds of years. Weird.
Man... in france most of the player salary is 50€ / month for player of the level of complexity.. would you make a contract for that.. That makes no sens..
When you make a contract for a player in france you cannot have him payed less that 1200E on that you add the taxe , that mean the team must pay 2400€/ month for contract any player. how do you want to do that ? Thats why stephano will be the first french player under contract.
In here we are serious people , we dont make a contract on a napkin like coL ( /troll )
You are giving me fucking brain cancer.
Do you honestly think Stephano is the first French player under contract? Holy shit.
Even if that were the case, you can't be surprised when you have previous incidences establishing the contracts are necessary regardless. You think TSL has a boat full of money to pay their players? No, but their players are contracted now regardless.
If you can't afford the players, don't be surprised when a team gives them a better fucking offer.
Stephano is the first french player under contract IN FRANCE , yes
MoOnan is French, isn't he? I am sure there is/was a French player last season in the NASL that as French and under a contract who was not Stephano...
Moonan is Korean. You're likely thinking of Moman.
On September 21 2011 04:04 Chill wrote: Conversely, I think it's very unethical to inform someone he can dissolve a contract based on (arguably) an oversight and then contract him yourself.
Why ? I would agree that it is unethical in some situations and ethically neutral in most others (like this case). Specifically if it is just after signing the contract and nothing of the contract being fulfilled yet I see no problem with someone making up his mind and using legal even if accidental way to dissolve the contract. I do not see any realistic way for you to show that the outcome is ethically worse than it would be if he honored his contract.
If your compagny hire a kid to cut the grass on a regular basis for 3 or 4 years , with him wearing the compagny shirt , working as a compagny member , etc. In you opinion he is still no part of the compagny cause he doesnt have a contract ?? Come on... Its ridiculous
Hire i which way? Without a contact and stuff this sounds like tax evasion and denying someone his social benifits to me (at least in most west european countries). At least in my country this company would probably be investigated and fined.
I really hope the eSport community as a whole would become more professional, with good fair contracts. Hopefully in such a way that if a players gets RSI or are involved in an accident, they won't risk losing every support at once (if the team turns out to be evil) or at least have a right to the same government benifits any normal employee has.
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
On September 21 2011 04:33 wunsun wrote: If Stephano had a verbal contract with mil beforehand, doesn't that override the contact with coL and therefore make the coL contract void?
It seems no one is debating the fact that a verbal contract with mil was made.
Well nobody is sure if there was a verbal contract between Stephano and Mil before he signed with Col. All we know is that Stephano told Mil that he would be staying with them, which can be taken as intent instead of an actual verbal agreement. There is a difference between the two. Just telling them he would stay with them w/o any actual terms being discussed isn't a verbal contract.
TBH stephano told mill he would staywith them the next years , then said yes to coL , then changed his mind again and stated on a french website " i will stay with millenium " and he changed his mind again.
And that only what we know. Since he got in talk with many other teams.
So Maybe all of you dont belive that when you say to a team " ill stay with you next season " , that they plan to send you to korea , that they are building a team house for you , etc. That count for nothing ... for me it doesnt.. sorry.
Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
We don't know that yet, that is still in the process of being sorted out since the contract may default to US law.
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Constitution. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
Wow somebody who actually seems to have an understanding of the law and the legal systems involved in this situation. AND he's unbiased, TY for presenting this.
Piotr's post on this is the best post about this I've seen so far. Thanks for all the information, I hope this somehow gets resolved amicably, though it seems unlikely.
Good post, Piotr. Glad to have some input from a local and one that is just factual and not picking sides. Everyone here (myself included) are just speculating based on what little info we have. And since this i sa message board, it generally devolves into anger and complaining.
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
Yes but Col has stated on reddit that this wasn't an employment contract, it was a contractor contract which from what I can tell is governed by a different set of laws.
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
We haven't seen the contracts but a competent one would include provisions for compensation in situations you describe, especially if the reason for leaving is so you can go to a competitor.
The second half of my post is just that I feel this situation can make any future business transactions between France and the rest of the international scene more risky and that will ironically hurt French eSports in general.
I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote: i dont see how priot post is different that my posts
Clearly trolling. His well-thought out and composed post was based on a study of the facts of the situation along with the attendant local legal realities that the situation entails. Whereas...
So Maybe all of you dont belive that when you say to a team " ill stay with you next season " , that they plan to send you to korea , that they are building a team house for you , etc. That count for nothing ... for me it doesnt.. sorry.
We got it man, you've expressed your opinion a lot of times. Now shut it thanks
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote: somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.
In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.
Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.
Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.
You can resign, but that does not mean that the contract ends that day. In most countries there are protections for employees and employers that guarantee that if at least one side does not want to terminate the contract immediately there is termination period before you actually stop being employed. Here in most cases it is 2 months. Employer cannot fire you sooner than in 2 months after officially informing you about it and you cannot leave sooner than in 2 months after officially informing your employer about it. Of course unless both sides agree on immediate resolution.
Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
That is a lot of information, thanks!
I don't think coL will ever take the case to the court, it would be too costly, both in money and image. Plus, they don't want to force Stephano to play for them (I don't know if they want compensations tho).
the problem is for problems like this.. we need something like A GOOD G7 Committee..or the G7 WITH korean and chinese teams.. but they have to work TOGETHER.. not like months ago as Alex Müller (SK) and Mathews (FNTC) had a little smud fight.
Millenium not being nearly as responsible and mature and efficient about the whole situation as Complexity. PR not nearly as good either. This "statement" doesn't explain anything!
The way I see it, between the three of them, Stephano is painted in the worst light (he seems to be the one who screwed up everything), Millenium is just not being very helpful at all, and Complexity just got screwed over.
You're welcome guys, I tried to do my best (I'm not a professionnal layer, I just studied labor law in undergraduate school). We must understand that we don't know many things about the case, we dont know many thing about law and even if we know somethings law is not a scientific issue.
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote: i dont see how priot post is different that my posts
I actually went back and looked at your posts incase it was anything useful then got trolled hard reading about grasscutters and capslock. Massive facepalm. But its the funniest post of the thread so far <:
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
You missunderstood or misstranslated this part, it says the contract has to be written in french, but if the appelation of the job has no equivalent in french, it can be left as a foreign word, but you have to explain what the job basically is in French.
Am I the only one wanting an actual lawsuit to push through and proceeded by an actual court decision? At least that way, (1) it'll be public record and (2) there would be an actual case study precedent for contracts in the world of eSports
On September 21 2011 05:11 Jisunsu wrote: Am I the only one wanting an actual lawsuit to push through and proceeded by an actual court decision? At least that way, (1) it'll be public record and (2) there would be an actual case study precedent for contracts in the world of eSports
Honestly I would be all for this... it would open the eyes of a lot people as to how things should work and, in almost everyother case in everyother profession, does work.
How can you say you aren't violating applicable law, Applicable law is dependent on the country the person is currently residing in, You have messed up horribly by allowing this too happen, He is in a legally binding contract to represent the team Complexity under United States Law, You guys have probably ruined stephano's career due to the fact that if he wishes to go abroad and play at MLG's and in the NASL or other USA tournaments, He will not be able to do it under your name without breaking the law, Of course that is reliant on the terms Millennium and Complexity have come too. It's not that we hate you for what you've done, You've just shown the world of E-sports Millenniums True colours and sorry to say, you're losing alot of fans for it. You should have looked at it from a business standpoint and taken your losses versus causing such an uproar, foolish decision to say the least and quite unprofessional. As for your confidence, Stephano may be protected under french law, but that does not mean that he has diplomatic immunity, he is still under scrutiny of the law dependent on the country no matter where he is.
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional.
Zyrae : Oh that's true, my sentence in english is ambiguous. It's hard to talk about laws in French so you can imagine in english... I will edit my post.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
If they were right they could provide facts to prove it. Col. showed facts, all millennium has done is say we are right please believe us.
So basically Millenium hasn't actually made a statement on anything worth mentioning, they've just confirmed what everyone already knew should be happening...really there is no way Stephano shouldn't be heading to coL soon.
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Constitution. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
Quote spoilered for length reasons
I think something is missing in that reasoning : one cannot be employed in France without a French employment contract (CDI or otherwise), unless it is only a temporary posting (for which the modalities can be found on this French governmental source, in English, and clearly would not apply to Stephano if he were to stay in France except for the occasional tournament - of course things are quite different if he is to be sent to Korea or to a future Complexity House in the US). What of that contract then ? It certainly does not conform.
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional.
i hear what you are saying but dont get ahead of yourself.
On September 21 2011 05:11 Jisunsu wrote: Am I the only one wanting an actual lawsuit to push through and proceeded by an actual court decision? At least that way, (1) it'll be public record and (2) there would be an actual case study precedent for contracts in the world of eSports
It would be nice, but the risk/reward scenario isn't that great for the team
Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement.
On September 21 2011 05:36 Atrimex wrote: Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement.
The smart thing to do would be for Millenium to release a statement of their side of the story, like what Complexity has. It's called transparency, they're obviously hiding something here. And I think it's pretty safe to assume it's not just the TL forums this is being discussed on, it's all over reddit and I assume European forums too.
I think it's counter-productive to make assumptions as to what laws applies, if French law would allow a breach in this case etc... We simply don't know.
I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc..
Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example.
Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea...
On September 21 2011 05:36 Atrimex wrote: Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement.
If you go over the the Mil website you'll see that the posters there are asking for more info also and blasting Mil for this lame attempt at an explanation. So it's not just the 'liquid crowd' wanting a better answer. And I don't think calling TL'ers 'dogs' is a wise move.
On September 21 2011 05:14 TLUtv wrote: How can you say you aren't violating applicable law, Applicable law is dependent on the country the person is currently residing in, You have messed up horribly by allowing this too happen, He is in a legally binding contract to represent the team Complexity under United States Law, You guys have probably ruined stephano's career due to the fact that if he wishes to go abroad and play at MLG's and in the NASL or other USA tournaments, He will not be able to do it under your name without breaking the law, Of course that is reliant on the terms Millennium and Complexity have come too. It's not that we hate you for what you've done, You've just shown the world of E-sports Millenniums True colours and sorry to say, you're losing alot of fans for it. You should have looked at it from a business standpoint and taken your losses versus causing such an uproar, foolish decision to say the least and quite unprofessional. As for your confidence, Stephano may be protected under french law, but that does not mean that he has diplomatic immunity, he is still under scrutiny of the law dependent on the country no matter where he is.
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional.
are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol
Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano.
Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers.
also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here )
I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind)
On September 21 2011 05:43 flick.ch wrote: I think it's counter-productive to make assumptions as to what laws applies, if French law would allow a breach in this case etc... We simply don't know.
I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc..
Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example.
Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea...
Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased.
On September 21 2011 05:14 TLUtv wrote: How can you say you aren't violating applicable law, Applicable law is dependent on the country the person is currently residing in, You have messed up horribly by allowing this too happen, He is in a legally binding contract to represent the team Complexity under United States Law, You guys have probably ruined stephano's career due to the fact that if he wishes to go abroad and play at MLG's and in the NASL or other USA tournaments, He will not be able to do it under your name without breaking the law, Of course that is reliant on the terms Millennium and Complexity have come too. It's not that we hate you for what you've done, You've just shown the world of E-sports Millenniums True colours and sorry to say, you're losing alot of fans for it. You should have looked at it from a business standpoint and taken your losses versus causing such an uproar, foolish decision to say the least and quite unprofessional. As for your confidence, Stephano may be protected under french law, but that does not mean that he has diplomatic immunity, he is still under scrutiny of the law dependent on the country no matter where he is.
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional.
are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol
Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano.
Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers.
also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here )
I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind)
Read what piotr posted. You're embarassing yourself.
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
On September 21 2011 05:43 flick.ch wrote: I think it's counter-productive to make assumptions as to what laws applies, if French law would allow a breach in this case etc... We simply don't know.
I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc..
Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example.
Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea...
Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased.
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic. I think you two may be on the same side of this discussion.
well, there's one thing which interests me the most.
-> EU law superceedes french law, when i'm not mistaken.
did they have an oral agreement, or did stephano actually put his signature under a binding contract?! from there we can start discussing... this here is just some halfhearted discussion without any grounds or information
On September 21 2011 05:45 RmoteCntrld wrote: Sounds like complexity pulled the trigger a little too soon before announcing they signed him. Too bad its what you get when you cant wait.
Once you've signed someone, it should become legally binding... a.k.a. you should be able to make the announcement o.O
On September 21 2011 05:14 TLUtv wrote: How can you say you aren't violating applicable law, Applicable law is dependent on the country the person is currently residing in, You have messed up horribly by allowing this too happen, He is in a legally binding contract to represent the team Complexity under United States Law, You guys have probably ruined stephano's career due to the fact that if he wishes to go abroad and play at MLG's and in the NASL or other USA tournaments, He will not be able to do it under your name without breaking the law, Of course that is reliant on the terms Millennium and Complexity have come too. It's not that we hate you for what you've done, You've just shown the world of E-sports Millenniums True colours and sorry to say, you're losing alot of fans for it. You should have looked at it from a business standpoint and taken your losses versus causing such an uproar, foolish decision to say the least and quite unprofessional. As for your confidence, Stephano may be protected under french law, but that does not mean that he has diplomatic immunity, he is still under scrutiny of the law dependent on the country no matter where he is.
[TL;DR] Millennium has caused Stephano to commit a crime under another nations law, You probably just ruined his option-ability for Starcraft 2, It seems as though you're limiting his surroundings and influenced him to turn back on something he had already decided, Very Disrespectful and Unprofessional.
are you serious ? a CRIME ? lol
Millenium hasn't break any laws. If anyone has, it's Stephano.
Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers.
also, workers in french labor law are far more protected. and I think that's good ! according to what I have understood here, an employee that has signed a contract in US has no rights at all ? can't he resign his job if he wants ? if somebody can explain this to me (in PM if necesary, i don't think it's the subject here )
I find coL methods to contact and recruit Stephano without talking to Millenium staff much more "disrespectful and unprofessional" that what Millenium did (actually, they just talk to their player about changing his mind)
I refer you to Piotr's informed and well thought out post before you start assuming that US law isn't applicable here. And I'm not saying it is or isn't, just pointing out that we don't know how it's going to be handled so don't say, "Also, don't think US law is above all. Stephano is french, live and work in France. You'll never get a US law to get applied in this case, even with the power of an army of US lawyers."
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
On September 21 2011 05:36 Atrimex wrote: Wow, the liquid crowd has tasted blood and now they want more drama. Nice from Millenium that they dont feed the dogs. We dont know anything what happend. Complexity, Stephano and Millenium should discuss this and then make a final statement.
The smart thing to do would be for Millenium to release a statement of their side of the story, like what Complexity has. It's called transparency, they're obviously hiding something here. And I think it's pretty safe to assume it's not just the TL forums this is being discussed on, it's all over reddit and I assume European forums too.
They will try to talk with Complexity and find a solution. That is smart. Everyone should calm down and find a good way out of this for both sides.
On September 21 2011 05:45 RmoteCntrld wrote: Sounds like complexity pulled the trigger a little too soon before announcing they signed him. Too bad its what you get when you cant wait.
"We've signed blah blah"
Er, how long would you want to wait after you sign someone?
On September 21 2011 05:20 ElTiozo wrote: Can't really understand why ppl mostly blame M (even if their PR is completly shitty) and not the actual culprit, Stephano himself...
Maybe because people still don't know what happened between Stephano and Millenium? Of course neither are without fault, but we don't know who played what part in him going back on the coL contract.
And in any case, it's easier for people to hate and flame a company than a single individual.
LOL at all the armchair lawyers and politicians, and especially the frenchies coming out to scream LOL IN FRANCE UR LAWS MEAN NOTHING.
Guess what, The EU and the US get along great and france is under the tyrannical boot of the EU like everyone else. Also, Even if there are absolutely no legal grounds, who is going to respect this player or team after this stunt?
On September 21 2011 06:00 darkscream wrote: LOL at all the armchair lawyers and politicians, and especially the frenchies coming out to scream LOL IN FRANCE UR LAWS MEAN NOTHING.
Guess what, The EU and the US get along great and france is under the tyrannical boot of the EU like everyone else. Also, Even if there are absolutely no legal grounds, who is going to respect this player or team after this stunt?
hey, ill have you know that my armchair comes equipped with all the relevant information to make a judgement about the case.
On September 20 2011 23:57 jib117 wrote: The fact that you are still saying absolutely nothing about what actually happened shows how in the wrong you are.
Nope.
We don't know anything, so they could be right for all we know. Which is why we want more information. Can't jump to conclusions yet~
If they were right they could provide facts to prove it. Col. showed facts, all millennium has done is say we are right please believe us.
No Col. stated they have facts, they never showed any facts.
On September 21 2011 02:58 daviday wrote: Things is , as lewelys said they doesnt care about gossips :
1st - Everyone will have forgoten about that in 1 week. 2nd- if teams doesnt want stephano because of that story ( witch im Sure will never happen ) , how can that be a bad news for millenium ? 3rd - i dont see how it would have any backfire on stephano regarding us tourney and stuff , since MLG keep asking players from millenium to join their tourney.
1. there's always going to be an idiot bumping the thread so no, nobody will forget in a week 2. so I guess Millenium doesn't care about Stephano? to the point they'd rather ruin his reputation and keep him than actually let him get better and have a better future? Now I understand why the only words he mustered on Lwl's stream was "j'espere avoir fait le bon choix" (I hope I took the right decision). 3. you really think [M]'s lack of professionalism will be easily forgotten? don't expect they get the same treatment from now on. ESPECIALLY with such shitty PR.
On September 21 2011 03:00 daviday wrote: BTW when Liquid took HuK from millenium there was 0 trouble...
that's because they had no money for counter-offers, lol.
ORLY ?
1- belive me , millenium doesnt care about US community , they only care about the french.. so US fans and stuff.. 2- They said " he made the mistake ", witch he did. So yeah they pretty mutch dont care since its not their fault , but stephano's. 3- YES ,because they were a lack of professionalism from coL , not from them , and all of theirs players will agree.
And please all.. stop saying that stephano missed a huge opportunity thats FALSE.
The only truth in this , is that , with an americain team you might get more exposure , and get more people on your stream so you will make more money.
Daviday's Guide to Business: Before hiring an employee, make sure you tell all your competitors that you're hiring him so they have a chance to check if they should offer him a better deal. If you don't do this, you have a lack of professionalism.
No you can also do it like a shark with no ethic at all, but then the shark with the most argument win , in that case millenium .
Daviday's Guide to Ethics: 1. Hiring an unemployed person as a contractor before telling all your competitors is unethical. 1a. Finding a loophole in your competitor's contract and using that to void it and reissue your own contract before your competitor realizes is, however, ethical if you're French.
rev. 01 1. Being non-French is unethical.
Great. I think this whole discussion needed a mod to hate on the French. Now everyone will feel entitled to throw even more stupid hatred in the thread.
It's just too easy to hate on the French.. therein lies the problem..
Very informative post. The CDI for 12 month is kinda strange from Millenium for sure, it's a non sense.
But one thing I wonder, I'm pretty sure that "theoretically" a CDI doesn't need any kind of paper support between the employer and the employee. (even if in fact 99.99% of the time there is a paper). And as Stephano says to Millenium that he agreed to stay with them a few day before he sign the Col's one, couldn't that be consider as a contract between Millenium and Stephano ?
On September 21 2011 05:43 flick.ch wrote: I think it's counter-productive to make assumptions as to what laws applies, if French law would allow a breach in this case etc... We simply don't know.
I think we need to look at Stephano (even though Mill has HORRIBLE PR, but they have more page views than SK guys!!!) from a moral and ethical standpoint; he signed onto something which he had weeks to look over (don't give me the 5AM crap) and then turned his back as if he had signed nothing. He should be punished ie banned from events for a certain amount of time etc..
Yes, he may be 18, but you just can't let this slide. It will set a bad precedent and he has to be made into an example.
Unless coL pointed a gun at his head, I don't think you can say there was any "disorienting" tactics used. I mean, he was probably offered more money, more events and Korea...
Wow , more page view than SK ? so what ? shitty lineup without Stephano, and don't compare the other lineup (cs 1.6, etc...) , btw SK except for their korean partnership have no SC2 lineup. You're fucking biased.
Uhm.... I was being sarcastic, if you read my post carefully, you will see that I say it right after I say their PR is horrible, I even added '!!!' to make sure people like you understood.. Even then, you can probably tell by the rest of the post that I'm not biased in favor of Mill. Learn how to read, son.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money.
Not to mention the ROI they would have gotten if he didn't change his mind..
On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money.
And for all we know, all the time they spent in trying to get Stephano could have been spent in trying to sign the now free agent Naniwa. So yes, I think there was some form of loss on Col part.
Very informative post. The CDI for 12 month is kinda strange from Millenium for sure, it's a non sense.
But one thing I wonder, I'm pretty sure that "theoretically" a CDI doesn't need any kind of paper support between the employer and the employee. (even if in fact 99.99% of the time there is a paper). And as Stephano says to Millenium that he agreed to stay with them a few day before he sign the Col's one, couldn't that be consider as a contract between Millenium and Stephano ?
Even if it's totally theoretical, I wonder
In some cases it can. Oral contracts are as binding as written ones. But there are areas where written contracts are required. I don't know how it is in France in case of employment. As for his statement about Mill few days before signing with col, hard to say, judge would have to decide I would guess. If there would be enough evidence that Stephano promised Millenium to stay with them and that there was agreement between both parties then judge might decide that this was binding contract and the one between col and Stephano was invalid, but that does not take the blame off Stephano, on the contrary.
On September 21 2011 06:23 Jiddra wrote: The only thing I know about how it is being a player for Mill is from ToD. At 0:50 he speaks about his on/off relationship with Mill.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
omg everyone let's talk about how mature and professional pokebunny is
Also I apologize on behalf of everyone in the world, except you, for any and all behaviours.
Seriously though, jumping on the hatewagon before knowing all the facts doesn't really help your self-promo case here.
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
Well, I guess I would say that your age excuse that comment.. =)
lol, this is hilarious. On what planet is releasing a totally vague statement with absolutely no content supposed to help your cause? It now looks even worse for Millennium. Right or wrong aside, what a dumb move from a management point of view...
Very informative post. The CDI for 12 month is kinda strange from Millenium for sure, it's a non sense.
But one thing I wonder, I'm pretty sure that "theoretically" a CDI doesn't need any kind of paper support between the employer and the employee. (even if in fact 99.99% of the time there is a paper). And as Stephano says to Millenium that he agreed to stay with them a few day before he sign the Col's one, couldn't that be consider as a contract between Millenium and Stephano ?
Even if it's totally theoretical, I wonder
In some cases it can. Oral contracts are as binding as written ones. But there are areas where written contracts are required. I don't know how it is in France in case of employment. As for his statement about Mill few days before signing with col, hard to say, judge would have to decide I would guess. If there would be enough evidence that Stephano promised Millenium to stay with them and that there was agreement between both parties then judge might decide that this was binding contract and the one between col and Stephano was invalid, but that does not take the blame off Stephano, on the contrary.
In terms of employment, in the absence of a written contract, a CDI is considered automatically contracted at the date of the first salary payment. However, in the absence of salary (and Stephano didn't have a salary up to that point), there is nothing that can be said to help Millenium's case on that specific point.
DUDE, for you own sake, you have to disappear. They will get you, now that you have unleashed the terrible truth ! Flee dor your life ! And no, I don't mean Kespa... I mean THEM. You have to protect yourself... meet us where the night joins the day. I have to leave now, before they find my house. For SC2, brother !
Well that statement basically did nothing in terms of the amount of respect I lost for them and Stephano after this whole thing. I don't thing it would have been easy to release a statement with less information in it.
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new). (.....)
the post is very good, but i think is biased. Are you really french?
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
I guess I should note, that yes when I said that I meant that he might still be very impressionable. However, of course that does not mean everyone in the world is the same way. Everyone matures at a different rate, and everyone handles pressure differently. Unless we somehow find out what really happened how fair is it to point fingers? HYPOTHETICALLY, what if both sides were trying to blackmail him? Is it still fair to blame him?
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
I guess I should note, that yes when I said that I meant that he might still be very impressionable. However, of course that does not mean everyone in the world is the same way. Everyone matures at a different rate, and everyone handles pressure differently. Unless we somehow find out what really happened how fair is it to point fingers? HYPOTHETICALLY, what if both sides were trying to blackmail him? Is it still fair to blame him?
yes because blackmail is illegal and he should have gone to the authorities
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
I guess I should note, that yes when I said that I meant that he might still be very impressionable. However, of course that does not mean everyone in the world is the same way. Everyone matures at a different rate, and everyone handles pressure differently. Unless we somehow find out what really happened how fair is it to point fingers? HYPOTHETICALLY, what if both sides were trying to blackmail him? Is it still fair to blame him?
oh poor Stephano.. he's impressionable..lol @ another pathetic excuse. You maybe right though, it's highly likely the Millenium boss -- who frankly speaks and behaves like gangster -- blackmailed him into rejoining Mill.
Sigh... I said hypothetically... I wasn't trying to say there was any blackmail was going on, I was trying to say people should wait before they start pointing fingers.
But yes, of course it is illegal. That doesn't mean that everyone who gets blackmailed goes straight to the police, the person doing the blackmail gets caught and everything turns out rainbows and sunshine. If that was the case then no one would try to blackmail anyone in the first place...
On September 21 2011 04:03 DyEnasTy wrote: Ok, I know I dont have the in depth details on this: but from what ive read from this and the other thread about this topic, does anyone else think the finger should be pointed at stephano himself? He signs with col, then back with mil.
I think it depends on what was said to him behind closed doors. He still is young.
So this makes him stupider and less apt to understand the world?
Being young does not mean you are oblivious to the world around you. I am pretty sure that PokeBunny understands what a contract is and its agreements *he is only 15 btw)
I signed a contract four months after my 15th birthday with my parents, and have never broken any contracts. I think age is ZERO excuse for ANY behavior; when you are in a professional environment and expected to act like a professional, you should do so.
omg everyone let's talk about how mature and professional pokebunny is
Also I apologize on behalf of everyone in the world, except you, for any and all behaviours.
Seriously though, jumping on the hatewagon before knowing all the facts doesn't really help your self-promo case here.
My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
So basically they tried to screw Stephano by shortchanging him on a contract increase, ended up losing him to coL which is the whole point of bidding wars, and got pissy because it makes them look bad to other French spectators, causing all this drama?
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
On September 21 2011 08:25 PHILtheTANK wrote: Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating.
there wasn't any negotiation between M and coL. coL just negotiated with Stephano and didn't bother to speak to M: that's what starts all this drama.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
If stephano chooses not to tell his team he plans on signing with coL, he's dumb, but he has no obligation to let them know his plans, nor does coL have an obligation to let mill know they want to sign stephano.
coL released a statement giving their side of the story. I've yet to see mill give their account, and they've had plenty of time. Seems more than a little shady to me.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
On September 21 2011 06:47 Capook wrote: lol, this is hilarious. On what planet is releasing a totally vague statement with absolutely no content supposed to help your cause? It now looks even worse for Millennium. Right or wrong aside, what a dumb move from a management point of view...
Actually, statements like this seem to happen a lot. The publicity guys just make the statements as vague as they can while making it look like they are working towards a solution in order to mitigate the damage to their reputation. It also buys them more time to get their shit together before publicizing the official happenings.
That being said, they could have released a statement like this much earlier. Waiting until now just reduces its affected attempt.
what i see from this situation is that stephano fucked up pretty badly. i feel bad for complexity.
it seems in SC2 contracts mean shit and that's pretty bad for the whole scene. millenium is not professional enough to accept that their player decided to sign the paper.
i was becoming a supporter of stephano more and more but as far as i am concerned he lost a fan here.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
i dont understand. there is nothing in this statement. we heard the apology yesterday already, you put something up on your website. what we want now is an explanation. but this is not it.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
The only timeline we have is from Col. If you want to disbelieve them that's up to you. But until M or Stephano refute it, then this is the working assumpion:
"For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services."
This wasn't a middle of the night swoop and sign. All sides had several chances to make an offer that couldn't be refused. Stephano may have lacked the patience to see the process through (like sleeping on it and deciding it on a clear head), but M didn't just know that Col made an offer, but M countered their offer several times.
For M to lose an 18 day bidding war then claim that they were blindsided isn't reasonable by any means.
Now, if they want to refute this timeline then that's a different story. But there's no reason to believe Col is lying.
As for the 'loophole', I don't think it's that cut and dry, which is why lawyers may get involved here.
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
I'm saying your speculation doesn't make sense. Its in stephano's best interest to make the bidding as transparent as possible. Say complexity says that they'll sign him on the spot for $30k. You'd be a total idiot to say yes. Instead, if you were stephano, you would go back to mill and say that you've gotten a $30k offer from coL. If they can beat that, you've just made money. Bring that deal back to complexity and repeat. So, there's no way in hell stephano went behind mill's back, as its not in his best interest.
Now, if that's exactly what happened, why hasn't mill stated this? Because they know its blatantly false, and everyone will know that their story makes no sense. Give them a little more time and hopefully they can come up with a much better lie. Otherwise their reputation as an esports organization is toast (if it isn't already).
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
There is no evidence that there was a single offer by coL that Mill just never responded to fast enough. In fact, based on what we know, there were multiple offers on both sides countering each other. Granted, this is primarily based on statements by coL, so there is potentiall bias, but Mill has never said anything to the contrary other than being pissed that Stephano left and blaming him for being confused and mistaken.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
If they knew that the bidding war was lost, why did the make another offer later ?
All i said was that a high member of Millenium wasnt aware of the situation, none of their sc2 redactor was, and a LoL redactor had to make the news, learning it from Team Liquid.
Millenium didnt knew that stephano was THAT CLOSE to leave. Of course they knew that he received offers, but they absolutely didnt know that CoL wanted to sign him this early.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
If they knew that the bidding war was lost, why did the make another offer later ?
All i said was that a high member of Millenium wasnt aware of the situation, none of their sc2 redactor was, and a LoL redactor had to make the news, learning it from Team Liquid.
Millenium didnt knew that stephano was THAT CLOSE to leave. Of course they knew that he received offers, but they absolutely didnt know that CoL wanted to sign him this early.
So Mill tried to hardball Stephano and lost. That's how these things work.
All I know is that Millenium's reputation as a team went down the toilet and it will be really hard for them to turn around like if nothing happened.. as for Stephano, he can say goodbye to the lucrative side of his SC2 career although I think he never cared about it in the first place.. the victim in all this is coL.. this failed transaction cost them dearly in terms of image and lost opportunity.. now they have to start from scratch again and build another business plan.
Is anyone else at all interested in seeing the average # of viewers stephano would get on his stream pre-dramaclusterfuck and post-dramaclusterfuck? Cause for all you people saying his career and reputation are being tarnished, I would have a hard time believing that he's actually pulling LESS viewers when he streams now than before this whole situation.
edit: also i realize someones career isn't just about his viewers.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
If they knew that the bidding war was lost, why did the make another offer later ?
All i said was that a high member of Millenium wasnt aware of the situation, none of their sc2 redactor was, and a LoL redactor had to make the news, learning it from Team Liquid.
Millenium didnt knew that stephano was THAT CLOSE to leave. Of course they knew that he received offers, but they absolutely didnt know that CoL wanted to sign him this early.
Do you actually believe the things you're saying? Of course they knew col wanted to sign him this early.... they tried to sign him for almost 3 weeks prior to this. And we don't know that mil offered him a better deal... what we do know is that they convinced stephano that the contract he signed with col was "not a real contract." We don't know any terms of the mil contract, it could be much less than what col was offering.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
If they knew that the bidding war was lost, why did the make another offer later ?
All i said was that a high member of Millenium wasnt aware of the situation, none of their sc2 redactor was, and a LoL redactor had to make the news, learning it from Team Liquid.
Millenium didnt knew that stephano was THAT CLOSE to leave. Of course they knew that he received offers, but they absolutely didnt know that CoL wanted to sign him this early.
Do you actually believe the things you're saying? Of course they knew col wanted to sign him this early.... they tried to sign him for almost 3 weeks prior to this. And we don't know that mil offered him a better deal... what we do know is that they convinced stephano that the contract he signed with col was "not a real contract." We don't know any terms of the mil contract, it could be much less than what col was offering.
Based on the online interview the manager did on stream, apparently Stephano's new contract with Mill is exactly the same as his old one, with no salary increase.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
If he signed a contract, then yes you say "damn, looks like we lost out on it". Alternatively, you can talk to CoL / Stephano, and see if both of those parties are interested in having Millenium buy out the contract (note that the reason you need to talk to CoL here is that they have a contract, whereas in the case of the negotiation with Millenium, there was no contract to be bought out). Regardless of how much of a bummer it is, a contract is a contract - the mere fact that it may be bad for your team to lose the player is not a valid reason for breaking a contract.
Childish is doing what you want without regards for prior signed agreements.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
Or they could have appreciated Stephano for the player he is, and given him a better deal than Col would anytime in the last 18 days that they were negotiating. They could have got him to sign a contract with the team hes been with his whole career before they had to break a contract, and pretend that there was nothing wrong with it.
Saying that "oh we woke up in the morning to him being signed, now we have to get him back" isn't a valid thing at all. If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision, not some kind of underhanded tactic by Complexity.
I can't argue when you are saying things like this. When a team make offers to your player, each team don't do ONE offer then wait to see if it's the better. It's an offer, then another, and so on. Llewellys go to bed thinking "It's ok, we still have time". During the night, CoL say to Stephano " Hey, i make you that offer ; what about signing now ?"
you are Llewellys, do you say to your boss Cedrix "We can't do shit right now, it's over. Sorry" ? Or do you fight ?
If stephano decided to sign at 3 AM thats his decision
And the french law is ok with Stephano signing with Millenium because of, according to french law, loopholes that nullifies the CoL contract. So what ?
I find it hard to believe stephano wouldn't tell management. By telling management he can start a bidding war, increasing his salary with the highest bidder. The story coL makes a lot more sense.
They of course knew that Col made an offer, but they didnt knew that he was going to sign monday night.
Why would stephano sign with col if he was expecting that mil could make another offer.... he would have just kept the bidding war going. Common sense says that mil probably gave him a one last final offer and complexity beat, then stephano signed.
If they knew that the bidding war was lost, why did the make another offer later ?
All i said was that a high member of Millenium wasnt aware of the situation, none of their sc2 redactor was, and a LoL redactor had to make the news, learning it from Team Liquid.
Millenium didnt knew that stephano was THAT CLOSE to leave. Of course they knew that he received offers, but they absolutely didnt know that CoL wanted to sign him this early.
Then shame on Mill for not putting their best offer forward and signing him like 18 days ago.
On September 21 2011 08:54 Supter wrote: Yeah, sure. Millenium wanted to loose their best players, or at least didnt try to keep him. Sound logic to me.
how about you shut up and stop kissing a certain french teams bottom ?
Millenium is obviously an "organisation" with no self-esteem , same goes for Stephano , I hope coL takes legal meajures(?) against them both. THAT'S the civilised way.
Permanent contract? that sounds pretty serious. Hope everything works out with stephano alright and this just seems really wishy washy or vague to an extent.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Most Sensible statement i've read so far on the Stephano Situation...
I really hope Stephano stays with Millenium he was raised and became good on Team Millenium let him stay there or Millenium will lose their best player...
I find it hard to believe CoL. didn't use Sneaky Tactics to Poach Stephano
I believe that complexity already said that they were being ignored by both Millennium and Stephano. So if you wanted to enter discussions, you could have done it before all of this happened. Then, there would be no "internet gossip" because we would likely not have heard that coL signed Stephano if it had been a collective discussion. Instead, we get a message that says "Stephano realized his mistake" and a day full of random guessing. So, do not spew nonsense about professionalism and respectful practices.
Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation. Do you really think that Stephano leaving M wasnt huge enough to make the whole team speak about it ?
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them a few hours later. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when he woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Most Sensible statement i've read so far on the Stephano Situation...
I really hope Stephano stays with Millenium he was raised and became good on Team Millenium let him stay there or Millenium will lose their best player...
I find it hard to believe CoL. didn't use Sneaky Tactics to Poach Stephano
Don't say shit unless you're willing to source it with detailed information, the only real responses we have are from Complexity who have more or less detailed their approach to signing Stephano. He was legally a free agent and it has been established that in these scenarios it's normal(for good reason) to contact the player since he has his own best interests in mind, subsequently they've suggested that he acted as the target for a series of offers between the two parties.
Millenium has given us nothing detailed with which we can say that Complexity used sneaky tactics so you're really just being asinine in your assumptions.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
If he signed a contract, then yes you say "damn, looks like we lost out on it". Alternatively, you can talk to CoL / Stephano, and see if both of those parties are interested in having Millenium buy out the contract (note that the reason you need to talk to CoL here is that they have a contract, whereas in the case of the negotiation with Millenium, there was no contract to be bought out). Regardless of how much of a bummer it is, a contract is a contract - the mere fact that it may be bad for your team to lose the player is not a valid reason for breaking a contract.
Childish is doing what you want without regards for prior signed agreements.
According to french law, it's not a valid contract, so, it's like there is no binding contract.
I'm not saying that Millenium did well and that they are right, i'm just saying :
1. Maybe CoL is not as white as they seem to be 2. Millenium head wasnt aware of the CoL/Stephano situation, or at least, they didnt expected CoL to make them sign THAT early. 3. According to french law, there is no binding contract between CoL and Stephano : if the contract is not valid, then it's like it doesnt exist.
I don't say that Millenium are good guys, but i don't think there is good guys and bad guys in this story. There is a stupid guy (Stephano) and two teams which fight for their interests and use what they can use.
On September 21 2011 10:01 HauntYou wrote: Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me.
You whole interpretation is wrong.
There is no 5 000$ 'buy now" option, there is only a 2 500$ option.
Here is the deal :
You have 24 hours after each offer to make another, if you don't, then the one who made the higher offer got the Zerglings plushie.
In this case, Millenium used the seller's plushie for like 8 months, but they'd like to buy it. Here come CoL, they make an offer. Well, it's ok, that is how things works.
But they come to see Stephano, the seller and tell him "Hey dude, He can't make you an offer higher, plus, it's like awesome if you sell it to me yaknow ?" You wake up and see that he already sold the item you wanted, so you tell him "Hey guy, i used to use it, and i can make you an higher offer, plus the rules of the site you used, E(ngenering)Bay.com, say that you can still sell it to another personn one hour after !
Wait so hours after complexity announced you signed? I'm sure complexity announced after they signed him, meaning you signed him after complexity. Or am I wrong?
Stephano and millenium both GG'ed their own careers, businesses, and establishments. There is nothing to be said about shady business and shady people. these thigns happen and you get on with it and move on. honestly from a coL pt of view would you really want stephano now? i understand he is a good player and all but i would never want anyone to represent me or my team or be associated with someone who cannot be upfront and stay true to their word. end of discussion
They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks.
(plus, i'm not a Millenium member, i just have a friend who is part of this team, nothing official so, i don't know if AtariJesus's "you" refered to me)
On September 21 2011 10:20 ChroMaTe_ wrote: I'm just sad because it's their fault NaNiwa has to leave Dignitas ):
Tomorrow we will see : "Stephano sign with Dignitas" ah ah :D
On September 21 2011 10:01 HauntYou wrote: Let me liken it to analogy to see if I understand the situation from Millenium's point of view...
Let's say I'm bidding at an online auction. I see a Zergling plushie I want, which has a "buy now" option set at $5000, yet the current bids are only around ~$2500. I'd be more than willing to pay $5000 (or more) for it, but I feel like getting a discount if I can. On the plus side, I also know the seller personally, so I don't need to worry about any sorts of shadiness.
So, I make a competitive bid. Later, another person, let's call him Col, bids on the item as well. Over the span of a couple of days, the highest bid alternates between myself and Col. Out of the blue, one night, Col decides he's had enough and chooses to buy it out for $5000 while I'm sleeping. The audacity! I quickly type a furious email to Col, for not notifying me. How dare he! I was more than willing to pay $5000 for it all along! I was just having a bit of fun with letting others put in their offers, but that plushie was essentially mine to begin with!
Col tells me that's how an auction works and he's not obligated to let me know of his contract negotiations, oops, I mean bids. Fine. But I'm not willing to go down without a fight and explore my options.
Instead of being a normal person and ceding the fact that I was resting on my laurels and was bested by another, I decide to forgo the opportunity to learn a valuable lesson from the ordeal. In fact, I decide that I want, no, needed that plushie so badly I was going to go through any means necessary to secure it.
I contact the seller directly, and make an offer to outbid the buy out. I also throw in the fact that we'd been friends for years and he'd be a total dick for not complying. He's a bit skeptical, but I convince the seller, Stephano, that there's no way Col can prosecute him due to a technicality of the purchase needing to be made in Euros just because. I can be very persuasive.
So he sends the item to me instead, and for the hell of it, I decide to put it through the wash so it can't be returned.
Now Col's all upset because he already told all his friends about the zergling plushie that he had in fact legitimately purchased and the auction site community is annoyed because the credibility of the whole process has been damaged... But Stephano and I, happy with having pulled off the transaction, decide to ignore the emails, unfriend and block them on facebook and spam "lolololols" at the MSN messages of legal reprisal because "nah nah nah nah nah nah" they can't do anything about it.
Col begins to explore his avenues for legal recourse while the community, furious, starts hurting my feedback rating on ebay and amazon, so I decide to release a public statement explaining that there's some kind of misunderstanding and I'll be sorting it out privately and that there are many unfounded rumors.
My only real points of contention go no further than the fact that I was clearly asleep when he made the bid and that the bid wasn't made in Euros, but even I realize that it sounds a bit silly so I decide to keep it under wraps so people will assume there was more. In the meantime, I continue to let my friends make weak arguments on my behalf about how exhausted I must have been because I was up all night playing Starcraft 2, and how important it is that a bid be made in Euros, otherwise the entire transaction is invalid.
That's just about how professional Millenium and Stephano appear to me.
I find this quite accurate as an analogy. But the conclusion should mention that if I was Complexity and I really wanted that plushie, then maybe, the professional thing to do was to double-check whether my bid in dollars was actually valid.
Two wrongs certainly don't do one right, and this does not excuse Stephano nor Millenium, but the lack of professionalism and self-inflicted bad PR is quite equally shared in this whole mess.
I wish teams would just be transparent about their positions if they decide to make statements at all. I get a little bitter when one side makes a statement and explains their side with logic, and another makes a statement that states there stance with no thought process. I would normally say NDA your dealings, but I think coL was under the impression that this was finalized. In the end, you will have a lot of people disliking an entire roster of players because you don't have a leg to stand on, or won't give yourself one.
On September 21 2011 10:22 Supter wrote: They didnt gg'ed their own careers, the whole thing will be forget in two weeks.
Just like the EG/TSL thing. Oh wait..
No one is "gg'ing" anything! That would be silly. The thing is: people from outside France don't know exactly what Millenium said on the stream (except the ones that speak french) so it was pretty much reading on forums what people heard from their staff. However, CoL made their statement as soon as they "lost" Stephano so they are expecting the same from Millenium, or maybe people are just hating "France e-sports scene" (aka Millenium and people with french scene bias) for not letting Stephano get more international and maybe even play with MVP fellas at Korea... :|
I feel like the only one taking advantage of stephano and his age in this whole thing is Mill, a permanent contract is just a bad idea no matter who you are.
Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
On September 21 2011 10:54 esotericc wrote: I feel like the only one taking advantage of stephano and his age in this whole thing is Mill, a permanent contract is just a bad idea no matter who you are.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: My 2 cents ; sorry for my poor english but i think it's important to say that :
I was with Zephimir monday night (well, tuesday at 5 am) on skype. For those who don't know, Zephimir is a LoL redactor from team Millenium, and one of the most important person in this team. Ofc, he talks a lot with Cedrix and Llewellys, because they are at the head of Millenium.
We learnt that Stephano was leaving Millenium when we browse TL. Nobody talk about it on the Millenium chan, whereas they talk about ToD leaving, Millenium acquiering the aAa.loL team and so on. But he didnt know about Stephano leaving, which was a waaaaay more important news than those two. He had to post about Stephano leaving at 5 am, and no sc2 redactor was aware of the situation.
What i am saying, and i don't want to defend Millenium, Stephano or Complexity, is that Millenium sure was aware about CoL views on Stephano, but didnt know that he was going to sign with them. Llewellys also said that he learnt about it when i woke up.
So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
Do you really think that Stephano leaving M
So basically they tried to screw Stephano by shortchanging him on a contract increase, ended up losing him to coL which is the whole point of bidding wars, and got pissy because it makes them look bad to other French spectators, causing all this drama?
Good post, I think that's exactly what it sounds like. It sounds innocent when they say "Millenium lost their best player in their sleep, with no chance to get him back." But it really sounds like Mill was taking advantage of Stephano by not signing anything with him.
Mill deliberately did not secure exclusive rights to Stephano, because this is convenient for them as employers and lets them shortchange him. And now Mill is trying to make an exclusive rights claim to Stephano, which they had not secured.
Note: It's widely accepted that exclusivity results in higher pay. You have to pay players more to keep them yours. So it looks like Millenium was avoiding the situation of paying for exclusivity.
If I were Stephano, I would be disturbed by the unscrupulous behavior coming from Mill. Mill is only now prepared to commit to Stephano as a last resort, and I question whether Stephano should want to work with people who only appear to care about using him.
I wish they had actually given some kind of transparency on the situation from their side. Reading everything complexity had to say I side with complexity because thats the only information we have.
I cannot make a conclusion without all the facts, It was good to see Col. Release a statement straight away, Mil didn’t have to do the same but as long as it was a well thought out and gave all the details from their side it would be fine.
But this PR? Whichever member of your staff thought it up or wrote it, think about letting some other team have them you’ll be better off.
To get the right word in the right place is a rare achievement. To condense the diffused light of a page into the luminous flash of a single sentence, is worthy to rank as a prize composition just by itself...Anybody can write a statement, the difficulty is to express all your points and information without squandering a quire of paper on it that ought to be reduced to one glittering paragraph
To explain it
As you may now know, it has been announced yesterday that Stephano had been hired by team Complexity, and a few hours later, that he had finally decided to sign a permanent position contract with us, Millenium, under conditions previously fixed with him (without any intermediate overbidding).
Although we are very confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law, we would also like to emphasize our good will to see this situation solved the right way.
We now want to enter a discussion phase with coL to try and find a solution consistent with the professionalism and respectful practices in the growing scene of eSport that both structures wish to promote and support. If anything, this unfortunate series of event has pointed out the impending necessity to ease worldwide communication between structures, and players, to avoid this kind of situation from ever occurring again. To our fans and to all the people supporting eSport in general, we want to thank you for your everlasting support and for your interest in the values that should be carried by eSport structures.
As for the people who may have been disappointed, shocked or offended, we would like you to understand that Internet gossip is not always ground truth, and that things are often more complicated than they might seem to be. We would like to apologize for the long time it took us to release a statement, but the last two days have been very stressful and exhausting for everyone involved. In addition, very practical difficulties ranging from busy schedules to time differences partially account for some of the mistakes or misunderstandings that might have led to this complicated situation. Hoping that you will understand us,
The Millenium Staff
All the useful information from this was: Yesterday Stephano was hired by complexity, and a few hours later he decided to sign a permanent position contract with us. Although we are confident that, from a legal point of view, Millenium isn’t violating any applicable rule or law, we would like to resolve this situation as soon as possible. We want to start discussions with Complexity whenever they are ready.
The last paragraph is unnecessary everyone here is intelligent we know the internet is full of gossip. As your stress and exhaustion my father lost a close family member the stress and exhaustion did not stop him from writing a beautiful and well structured piece for the news paper for them.
Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
PPS: I'm Canadian, but if a Canadian league did this, I would not support them. You should be ashamed for basing your judgment solely on your nationality.
Complexity Gaming: "We're going to do as much as we can to ensure signing a contract means something, in spite of how lame this situation is for everyone we are obligated"
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
You are calling almost 3 weeks to decide "pressure"? LMFAO. Have you ever been recruited professionally?
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
He beat Sen 2-0 at Assemply summer. He has beat so many koreans l8tly in IPL he allmost knocked Puma out at IEM where he also beat Sase 2-0
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
On September 21 2011 08:18 Supter wrote: So, what were they suppose to do ? Think "well, when i was sleeping, they sign my best player, but i can't try to get him back, it's bad. I'll let him leave. Too bad for me." or try to get him back ?
They chose the second option. You guys are saying "it's bad for esport, and it's bad for esport reputation". But if they had lost their best player, it would have been horrible for them. You follow a team site for their players. Stephano is really popular in France, and Millenium is like the first esport site in France, french people don't mind as much about Lalush, Tarson, DieStar and even Adel as they do for Stephano. It would have been a HUGE lost for them. Moreover all their project (including the team one) would have been destroy.
I don't say that Millenium did good, but if you think that CoL is the good guy and Millenium is the bad guy, you are mistaken. IMO, Millenium and CoL are just doing what they have to do for their team (ie. signing a contract with a player they want and keep the player they have), and Stephano did a huge mistake.
Seriously, will you HATE Millenium because of this ? It's so childish.
If he signed a contract, then yes you say "damn, looks like we lost out on it". Alternatively, you can talk to CoL / Stephano, and see if both of those parties are interested in having Millenium buy out the contract (note that the reason you need to talk to CoL here is that they have a contract, whereas in the case of the negotiation with Millenium, there was no contract to be bought out). Regardless of how much of a bummer it is, a contract is a contract - the mere fact that it may be bad for your team to lose the player is not a valid reason for breaking a contract.
Childish is doing what you want without regards for prior signed agreements.
According to french law, it's not a valid contract, so, it's like there is no binding contract.
I'm not saying that Millenium did well and that they are right, i'm just saying :
1. Maybe CoL is not as white as they seem to be 2. Millenium head wasnt aware of the CoL/Stephano situation, or at least, they didnt expected CoL to make them sign THAT early. 3. According to french law, there is no binding contract between CoL and Stephano : if the contract is not valid, then it's like it doesnt exist.
I don't say that Millenium are good guys, but i don't think there is good guys and bad guys in this story. There is a stupid guy (Stephano) and two teams which fight for their interests and use what they can use.
So you are not saying millenium did the right thing, just implying coL may have done something wrong, and the reason for that is..??? no reason.. just a hunch uh?
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
Must be a french thing to feel harassed when your boss is "threatening" you with doubling your salary for the next year if you sign a new contract... yeah pretty stressing really.
Oh my, if my boss wanted to wine and dine me for 18 days pressuring me to take a raise... the horror!
I would be sure to say yes and sign the dotted line after enduring 18 days of this cruel and unusual punishment, only to not show up to work on the 19th day and never be heard from again.
ETA: actually it would be more like skipping the interview process when looking for a new job and being given multiple offers over the course of 18 days
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
Must be a french thing to feel harassed when your boss is "threatening" you with doubling your salary for the next year if you sign a new contract... yeah pretty stressing really.
Obvious troll is obvious...
He clearly says in his first post that there is a contradiction, "we were throwing offers constantly, but there was no pressure!" Well if there was no pressure why were they throwing offers?
Theres his logic brotocol, pretty simple to comprehend, no? , and your racist comment is quite unneeded.s4life...
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
The key word is logic here. People are obviously gonna be biased based on where they are from, the biggest issue in my mind is the fact that contracts in SC2 mean shit right now and this could be a huge factor in deciding the future of progamer contracts
Why can't things be simple in this world anymore.... i hate all of these complex contracts and obligations and crap like that, just go with the team you want, no questions!
Seriously, even if stephano signed with another team, would he want to join them after this fiasco? i think not
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
No you are wrong. In the US the burden is on the prosecution to show guilt. The term we like to use "is innocent until proven guilty." Nice try.
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
Must be a french thing to feel harassed when your boss is "threatening" you with doubling your salary for the next year if you sign a new contract... yeah pretty stressing really.
Obvious troll is obvious...
He clearly says in his first post that there is a contradiction, "we were throwing offers constantly, but there was no pressure!" Well if there was no pressure why were they throwing offers?
Theres his logic brotocol, pretty simple to comprehend, no? , and your racist comment is quite unneeded.s4life...
* I didn't make a racist comment. But it is quite suspicious that so many new French posters are defending Millenium.
* Offers are 100% voluntary. So no, that is not pressure. Nobody coerced him to sign anything.
PS: I grew up in a French community. But unlike some people, I don't let that compromise my reasoning.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
UHHHHH im not going to get into a lot of things here but the US system the defendant does NOT need to prove he/she is innocent
Innocent until proven guilty is a big line for the US
Probably just a misunderstanding but you got our system backward
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
Almost right, they both gather evidence to find the truth of the matter. The US system looks to find the truth of the situation, not who ever gathers more facts wins its what the truth is is supposed to win
I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
Do you actually have any reason to state that contracts are taken more seriously in US than in France ? If you base it on this mess, then that is hardly any argument since people in this thread know basically nothing about the situation in question and never saw the contract.
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
OHHHH you just dont have all the facts then, little misunderstanding.
The defense can blame the victim, its true, its a tactic to discredit their story but it really only works when the victim is lying.
In the case of DSK that women was lying and was never even touched by him, the defense found HUGE holes in her story and then attacked those holes (i guess you would call this blaming the victim? ) all the defense did was point out that she lied and if she lied once she can lie again.
Back on point sure the defense might "blame the victim" but most of the time the defense is just pointing out holes in the persons story
Edit: were kind of getting off point i think, to comment on the OP it seems MIL just added nothing to the conversation besides saying, dont worry we are okay we didnt do anything wrong but dont ask for details
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ()
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life
I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
I seriously doubt French defense lawyers just let their clients get convicted in the Pursuit of Truth.
Sadly, people are missing the entire point that this sad statement by Mill proves by making it an argument by whether or not coL or Mill is acting in the right as a whole.
1) The strongest 'defense' people have for Mill and Stephano is that Mill was unaware of the negotiating between both parties which coL has pointed out Mill was fully aware Stephano was not only negotiating with them but also other teams as well. Mill statements do nothing to deny this, thus for now, I will take it as truth.
2) Mill claimed coL disoriented Stephano into signing with them, coL claims they simply made him an offer that would have made him one of the highest paid sc2 pros. Mill statements do nothing to deny this, in fact, their statement of disorientation probably aludes to the quantitative values of the contract. The result? Millenium probably expected Stephano to resign with them, and upon finding out that he inked with coL, rushed to get him to sign with them. In all honesty, Mill must have applied the most pressure in this situation to get him to sign a second (permanent) contract and my guess this came down to coL being an American team and my guess here is that they played the nationality card on him. I see no evidence to lead me to believe otherwise.
3) coL is in a tough spot here. As was discussed on SotG tonight, what can you do? Let's totally ignore the totally BS I can ignore a contract for one month in France rule (which by the way would have to work both ways right?) and focus on the fact that this move doesn't merely hurt the integrity of coL and Mill (and most notably Stephano) but also the integrity of sc2 contracts as a whole. If coL does not pursue any action, it begins to promote a system where contracts mean less and less (SixJax to me is a perfect example) and the players become to callous towards the team that is sponsoring them. With no over arching organization to implement any system of rules, and the fact that players GENERALLY will always win the support of the community in such situations, teams are left with very few options in swinging the power they very well should possess.
Please see this situation for what it is and value all the facts or statements that have been presented. coL has produced many statements on how things happened (which are being ignored by many) and Mill produces multiple statements which only center on 'rumors' without actually denying any of the evidence that has been presented by the other team in this situation.
Point is, Mill has the winning hand here. By doing nothing, and (at least in my mind) forcing Stephano to remain with their team, they are forcing coL into a position to make a move which is almost impossible to make AND will will end up being very messy with almost NO chance at an upside. I don't like coL, not a fan of their management, but in this scenario, it appears they are doing exactly what was within their parameters as a team.
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ()
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
What you said makes no sense... just because col may not have directly presented their offer to Millenium doesn't mean that there was no bidding war. So they make an offer to Stephano who goes and tells Millenium about it and leverages it into a counteroffer. It has also been stated that Millenium was well aware of negotiations with both col and other teams. Col didn't "make" him sign, he chose to sign when he did, and he's up at weird Euro hours all the time showing up in various people's streams. It's the nature of international business. If he wanted to talk to Millenium to get a counter offer, he should have just waited and contacted them. That's how negotiation works, people decide which concessions are worth making and which bluffs are worth calling.
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
I seriously doubt French defense lawyers just let their clients get convicted in the Pursuit of Truth.
No, what I think he was trying to say is that the primary goal in a US trial is to arbitrate between the offender and the offendee, whereas in France it is to establish the truth. But of course lawyer are as unfaithful here as anywhere.
I get the impression that Stephano never took pen to paper with Complexity because he was able to sign a contact with Millenium, being french and in France. So if it comes down to a court battle it might end up being a case of "we have a signed paper where is yours?".
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life
I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL
I just want to stress out that by no mean it is legal to not honor a written contract in France as anywhere else. It's just that the power of the contract is proportionate to the money at stake and is dependant on the context.
On September 21 2011 12:45 docvoc wrote: Millenium is in a lose lose situation, if they say we were wrong they give up stephano after possibly coercing (i say this as a jab to what they have accused CoL of doing) him to stay and then accusing CoL of coercing stephano. Stephano is really good but he won't last, his play is incredible to watch but its foreign good, not korea good, he is not even close to sen or nestea right now. He could become this good if he joins a bigger team but right now his entire livelihood hangs in the balance, if this doesn't get settled soon he won't be big on the sponsorship list since this will follow him for a while. I hope CoL either sues the living shit out of Millenium, or Millenium somehow releases a statement showing that they aren't violating a presigned contract. If none of the above happen, i hope stephano somehow makes it out with his career intact, ToD did it, now its his turn. Millenium is pretty much dead and this would be the nail in the coffin it seems.
- Mill didn't violate anything. - CoL can't sue Mill, if anyone can get sued, it's Stephano for breaking his contract with CoL
everyone is guilty here.., that's what it makes so much drama: CoL acted unprofessionally making Stephano sign without letting him the time ton consult M or contacting M directly. Mill acted unprofessionally by convincing Stephano to change his mind after he signed a contract with another team. Stephano acted unprofessionally by taking the decision to sign, and then changing his mind
and regarding the suing... you have no idea at what point the idea of suing seems ridiculous to most of the french here. good luck with getting an US contract getting applied to a french citizen in France.
But appart from that, most reactions here are due to not understanding the cultural difference between US and France :
Judicial system in US is accusatory : the defendant must prove is innocent. Well in France it's an Inquisitorial system, the defendent is assumed innocent, and the goal is to find the truth, based on the facts. THAT explain a lots of reactions here, from US and french ppl
Uh sorry but i believe in the US it is innocent until proven guilty. Nice try tho.
sorry I wasn't very clear. in US, I believe The prosecution gather evidences to make a case, the defense make a statement, and they battle over facts to finding who wins no ?
I was just trying to explain that it isn't at all like that in France, the only goal is the truth.
I have no clue what you're trying to say, that US court's goal is not to find the truth? Fact finding is done regardless, we just do it differently, but with the same end result. So no, don't point to our legal system as our cultural difference, our cultural difference would be us taking our contracts much more seriously than France.
I agree with you, the purpose of the justice is fundamentally the same in both countries. But, indeed, there seems to be some kind of magical binding power atributed to the signature of a piece of paper in the US and, indeed, it is no such a big deal in France. Or maybe it is just because we are french and we love Stephano but frankly as far as I am concerned I don't give a fuck where he plays.
Ya in the USA that signature is a big deal, dont know why its a big deal here, or why its not a big deal there but thats life
I would of liked to see him on Col if any team because they would send him to korea and i want more good players in the GSL and it does not seem like it will get there with MIL
Do people not see the difference between signing a contract in the country you live in and across borders? If you go to a far-away-country, sign a contract, regrets it and go back to the US do you honestly think they'll be able to hold you responsible in every case? There's been Russian hockey players in the past that have simply left their clubs (them being contracted) and gone to the nhl. And guess what, there was nothing they could do about it. This was a fairly long time ago so international rules might be different but that people act surprised when this kind of contract is unenforcable is beyond me and it has little to do with you valuing signatures more than any other country. Heck, it can even be extreemly difficult to get real criminals transfered from one country to another to get on trial.
On September 21 2011 15:58 theBizness wrote: Are you referring to civil court?
I don't know what I'm referring to, I am trying to repeat what was told in diverse medias during the DSK trial, the only source I have about US justice outside CSI.
Well without getting too involved, civil and criminal court have different burdens of proof (criminal is higher) and are separate entities in the USA with different purposes. Civil actions are started by individuals, while criminal actions cannot be. Civil court is where "damages" etc. would come from. These cannot be awarded in criminal courts in the USA. What you described is closer to arbitration or mediation, which is another process.
The statement in the OP should have been Millenium's original statement. Their first was unprofessional, reeked of nationalism, and really hurt their image.
If they can come up with a closed door settlement (even it was just 1$), it could save face for both parties and at least appear to maintain the integrity of contracts with progamers. Both parties could announce that the breaking of the contract was indeed a serious matter and a monetary settlement agreed upon.
this statement is a fucking joke. actions like this do, in fact, hurt esports, what millenium and stephano did is a disgrace. he should be banned from every tournament. for at least 1-2 years
On September 21 2011 16:00 Orcasgt24 wrote: I get the impression that Stephano never took pen to paper with Complexity because he was able to sign a contact with Millenium, being french and in France. So if it comes down to a court battle it might end up being a case of "we have a signed paper where is yours?".
I get the impression that you really haven't read any of the threads about this situation.
it's not that french people don't care about contracts, but in France, the labour law is more focused on the worker, according him some rights, giving him a "droit de rétractation" meaning that the employee can change his mind for a few days after he signed the binding contract.
In America, it look like the system protect more the entreprise that the people, or at least about that, and it didnt give them this right.
So : Stephano acted correctly regarding french law, and it's not that he didnt respect CoL, he just acted with french culture toward an american multigaming. It's not that much of a big deal.
(As i said before, i don't defend Mill because i'm french. In fact, Stephano is my favourite progamer, and i think that CoL, just like Millenium, aren't good enough for him)
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ()
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME.
Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me.
On September 20 2011 22:33 NeoSlicerZ wrote: Considering the tone that Millenium's previous statement took combined with this. I see no reason to be skeptical of coL's POV.
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ()
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME.
Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me.
The fact that he sign a contract in the middle of the night (while being sleepy ?) and change his mind the next day (fully awaken ?) could be enough to break the contract, I think.
Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered. 1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary
On September 21 2011 22:06 5thdiv_gaming wrote: Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered. 1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary
M did know. They were in a bidding war with col for steph for those 18 days
Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
On September 21 2011 14:57 hephaestos wrote: The Haag court can only be summoned for (European) human rights infringements. I'm not sure that would be reasonable in our case.
It's used for a number of things ( Source ) and it's best known for the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia, for the war crimes committed in Yugoslavia and the Ethnic Purge that happened there.
But you can only make an appeal on it if the Supreme court of the country you are sueing in has been done, which in most cases will take several years to even reach to point that you can make an appeal at the Supreme Court.
Other then that the Tribunal in Den Haag will only take a case if the original case was held in on of the Conventions of the PCA. ( France is part of the PCA )
Either way back to the eSport scene i think in all fairness a contract is binding untill one of them decides otherwise, in this case it appears that Stephano changed his mind after signing with Complexity, which in the end is Stephano as person the one who breaks the contract.
The only thing Complexity can do is bring Stephano to court for breaking a legal binding document, this can result in a restriction that during the trial date and the point of submitting the case to court, Stephano can be told to not practice Starcraft 2 on a professional level or participate in any tournaments until the judge reached a verdict in the case.
I am sure complexity will not take this route and tries the face to face route first with Millennium and Stephano, but in the end if they do not agree they can put Stephano on the side lines of Starcraft 2 until the court has decided.
In either case i hope everything works out between Complexity and Stephano since this road will only lead to more drama, troubles and in the end it somebody will pick up the pieces.
People should be careful when yelling that this will hurt eSports, since we all know ( at least i hope ) that it will , but the eSports already stepped out of the Childhood shoes and in fact is now just a global business market, where the same rules apply.
On September 21 2011 22:06 5thdiv_gaming wrote: Well after spending the last 3 hours. Cutting thru the swath of posts i have finally read them all. I was hopimg for perhaps some more statements from both mellenium and complexity since that is not yet the case i would lile to state the following from the information gathered. 1) stephano was a free-agent playing under the M tag when he was approached by CoL. To play as a paid contracted player.
2) 18 days of negotiations were held. The debate in this area is to whether or not m was aware of the offers. Now please note if stephano is indeed a free-agent player then no contact with M was necessary
M did know. They were in a bidding war with col for steph for those 18 days
Quoting Millenium's statement "without any intermediate overbidding".
It's basically Col's point of view versus Mill's point of view.
There are 2 sides in this story: 1) The Law We cannot say anything there except we'll see. We don't know the exact details and this is something serious. That's the most important part
2) The honor, manner... Col, after 18 days of debate with Stephano (according to Col), signs him without noticing Millenium (according to Mill). They didn't have to tell Mill anything (but it's not manner according to the fact that Stephano was a Millenium player for about 4 years. He hasn't a contract but he is paid, he is streaming... and you can add that signing a big contract with a 18 years-old at 3a.m is not something you must be proud of...). Mill, after 8 hours, convinces Stephano to go back with them. They said they didn't break the law. (but it's not manner because Stephano had a contract)
I see 2 teams doing quite poorly, but i don't see one doing worse than the other... Except for communication where Col >> Mill
On September 21 2011 13:40 Xouh wrote: Complexity wrote : "For the next 18 days we conducted negotiations. We would make an offer and Millenium would make a counter offer. At no point did we apply pressure other than to make it clear that we were willing to do what it would take to secure his services.'
Contradiction in bold.
Maybe Stephano finally don't want to become a Stream-singer ?
France, 14 posts.
Ulterior motive in bold.
PS: What you bolded is not the slightest bit contradictory.
(Don't care about my posts number ?)
Yes this is contradiction 'cause, if you are harass with "travel around the world, and best payed player " for 18 days, you ARE under pressure.
How is that harassment. Please explain to me how offering him a high salary and the option to participate in foreign tournaments constitutes harassment.
I'm not even being snarky, I literally do not understand your logic.
Must be a french thing to feel harassed when your boss is "threatening" you with doubling your salary for the next year if you sign a new contract... yeah pretty stressing really.
Obvious troll is obvious...
He clearly says in his first post that there is a contradiction, "we were throwing offers constantly, but there was no pressure!" Well if there was no pressure why were they throwing offers?
Theres his logic brotocol, pretty simple to comprehend, no? , and your racist comment is quite unneeded.s4life...
Yeah, coL was countering any offer Mill may have made with one of their own, how the fuck is that harassing????? was Mill harassing him too? I can't believe people is arguing this point ffs.. and that wasn't a racist comment BTW.
On September 21 2011 15:21 Gwal wrote: I think you don't understand what I am clumsily trying to say
in US, (again, correct me If I'm wrong!) I believe the defense can force prosecution to drop a case, by blaming the victim. It happens recently in the Trial of DSK. that's what I mean by "not finding the truth".
No, that case was dropped due to insufficient evidence. The woman's testimony was unreliable and I believe dna evidence came up negative or inconclusive. The case was dropped because there was no chance of success.
and it was the strategy of the defense : they didn't proved their client innocent, they "attacked" the accusation witness, questioning her reliability, etc..
to get back to the subject ()
I find that there are somes "HUGE holes" in the statement of CoL... - the offer/counteroffer bidding war couldn't happened because they didn't contact with Mill staff - they said there was no presure, but they made Stephano sign at night time in France, without letting him the time to contact Mill staff
and those facts are obvious, because when Mill learned about that last offer, they made (although it's unprofessional because Stephano already signed a contact) a "counteroffer" and convince Stephano to stay. That was their only move because they didn't know about it until morning time in EU
How the fuck does someone make another person sign a contract? I'm pretty sure coL wasn't going to kill the kids parent's if he didn't sign. He obviously wanted to sign the damn contract when he did, or else he wouldn't have done it. I don't understand how all these people think coL somehow played a jedi mindtrick on Stephano and forced him to do something that was clearly WHAT HE WANTED TO DO AT THE TIME.
Also, why couldn't a bidding war of happened? Couldn't Stephano report back to Mill with what coL was offering him? That seems pretty logical to me.
The fact that he sign a contract in the middle of the night (while being sleepy ?) and change his mind the next day (fully awaken ?) could be enough to break the contract, I think.
(No certitude here, juste a tought)
Rofl..... signing a contract while sleepy does void it. Troll somewhere else.
Hum... coL can basically sue Stephano, and if they are smart enough to have made no mistakes while preparing the contract they are going to win big time.
What is so disturbing about this whole story is that Millenium seem to not care at all about the fact that Stephano only is responsible for breaking the contract, and that they are putting him in huge troubles. Stephano is very young, and he probably doesn't know or realize that you can't sign a contract and then change your mind and ignore it altogether.
But well, I guess business is business and they probably don't care that much.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now.
The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim...
If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them.
I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now.
The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim...
If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them.
I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
I handle the real world great, as in that situation i can determine what's up based on something other than internet comments and a few lines of text with no first hand information.
I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent". To me you're stretching it especially since all you have to go on are Complexitys PR response and the short Mill statement.
What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on.
The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill.
But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now.
The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim...
If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them.
I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent".
What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on.
The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill.
But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc.
if that's the case you (stephano) go to complexity and talk to them, they let destiny leave because destiny didn't like the contract im sure they would do the same for stephano. what you DONT do is ignore the contract that you just signed and sign with another team.
If it's true that you've got a 1 month trial time after signing a contract by french law then i can't see how Stephano or Millenium has done anything wrong. coL should know this when they added him and therefore they shouldn't be surprised if he left the first month should Stephano like millenium more. Maybe Stephano planned to use the first month to find out how it was like in coL and then make his decision.
Again, this is just if it's true that you've got 1 month trial time.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Posts like these makes me want to go from neutral to supporting Mill and Stephano full out. The stupid level is very high. Kick him? Disgusted by Mill? If you take such offence to this i really want to see how you deal with all the shit in the real world.
The word disgusting was used in the EG vs TSL deal too. I can't fathom how people can use that word when it's stuff like this. The old korean team that disbanded due to a coach sexually harassing a minor, that's disgusting behaviour.
If you can't see that Mill is acting very shady, I wonder how you would handle the real world. I don't mean this disrespectfully, but employers can be ruthless, and Mill is looking pretty blatant right now.
The statements from both sides are pretty damning for Mill, because it's become quite apparent that they were screwing Stephano by not paying him for exclusive rights. He exercised his right to play the field and solicit better offers, and even accepted one. And now all of a sudden, they're making an exclusivity claim...
If they wanted him exclusively, they could've signed a contract with him before and compensated him accordingly. Instead, it looks like they were taking advantage of the "gray area" nature of his agreement with them.
I don't see how they can expect Stephano's commitment, when they did not formalize any commitment towards him. It's only natural that he entertain better offers. And now, Mill has "made him see his mistake." If that doesn't set off your "evil" sensor, I don't know what will.
I've seen your previous posts where you imagine this scenario where Mill are pressuring Stephano etc. I for one don't know enough to say and i wont go to extremes based on a few lines interpeted as "evil intent".
What's to say that Stephano didn't come to Mill with questions regarding his contract, Mill helped him out and Stephano realized the Col contract would mean life changing stuff that he wasn't ready for? We don't know and all i'm saying is that's is fucking ridiculous to start throwing words like "disgust" and similar around when no one but the affected parties knows what's going on.
The handling of the actual contract stuff was bad. Instead of using a loophole Mill could have talked to Complexity and resolved the situation if Stephano really wanted to stay with Mill.
But i guess people want to find stuff to overreact to. It was the exact same thing with EG vs TSL. EG were disgusting and unprofessional, then Lee was disgusting and shouldn't be a coach etc.
if that's the case you (stephano) go to complexity and talk to them, they let destiny leave because destiny didn't like the contract im sure they would do the same for stephano. what you DONT do is ignore the contract that you just signed and sign with another team.
I'm not saying it isn't a stupid move but i'm prone to like them just based on the extremely exaggerated responses some people here have to the whole situation, calling is disgusting and requesting Mill to kick Stephano.
On September 22 2011 02:11 ovnell wrote: If it's true that you've got a 1 month trial time after signing a contract by french law then i can't see how Stephano or Millenium has done anything wrong. coL should know this when they added him and therefore they shouldn't be surprised if he left the first month should Stephano like millenium more. Maybe Stephano planned to use the first month to find out how it was like in coL and then make his decision.
Again, this is just if it's true that you've got 1 month trial time.
from what ive heard the trial time isn't universal, its an exception rather than the rule. granted i don't know much about french law, this is just from what some french people have posted.
On September 21 2011 04:56 blackone wrote: I honestly don't understand how this is so much drama. Yea, it was a dumb move by Stephano, but I don't think there was any kind of harm done, it's not like col already spent money on him or something. Why don't we just leave that kid alone? But I guess we're all capitalism know and sue each other. Good times!
coL wasted 18 days and manpower. That is money.
Money they would also have lost, if Stephano had never signed their contract.
personally id be all for a lawsuit, if for no other reason than to set a precedent. I have nothing invested in either team, though from what information i have been given millenium seems more at fault.
On September 22 2011 02:13 FluidKMC wrote: maybe i dont understand how the law works but how could milennium even have a case?
Because a contract sounds very scary and everything. But a contract is a very vague legal term. We have no clue what Stephano signed. And even if he in fact signed some kind of contract that forbid him to change teams that soon again there are still reason why he / Millenium could get away with it.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
you can't have a player stolen if you don't have the rights IE a contract with them. you are right, no one knows what actually happened, we have only CoL's account seeing as millenium's statement looks to be written by politicians....you know, alot of words that don't actually say anything.... so pretty much it looks like millenium is at fault for if not pressuring stephano to change his mind, knowingly signing him after he had been signed by CoL. if millenium hasn't done any of these things then they should lay out the facts instead of giving a statement that addresses none of the accusations in any way.
Something I just do not get is the fact that some people are always quick to point out so called "moral obligations" of the team that signs these controversial players. Is this an unwritten rule somewhere? I mean it is really baffling to me personally, that the last two player signing "controversy's" a high amount of post say the signing team was wrong because they did not talk to the former teams management. <--Does this even make sense????
I just cannot grasp how a team trying to get xxxx player onto their roster has any responsibility to report to xxxx player's prior team when xxxx player is a free agent/not under contract. Perhaps the only way I can see a possible instance would be if 2 teams have some sort of partnership like OGs and Liquid(*just as an example!).
For teams with no relationships this should never be used against them as a reason why "they were wrong". A free agent is a free agent. If three teams are throwing offers to someone and the player verbally agrees to one then its on him/her to let the other people know what is what. It really was not fair that the player agree verbally to one team and them physically signs with another team.
Sadly there will be no recourse for actions like these that should be placed on players that actually do shady things like this, unless tournaments and leagues start refusing them and take a stand about seriously trying to make this work and work right.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
I am sorry but when you use a phrase such as :
"The techniques used by Complexity to recruit Stephano were quite disorienting to influence our young player towards a bad decision. After a long discussion, Stephano understood his mistake and decided to stay with Millenium for the next 12 months"
I believe it is on them to show valid reason for making some pretty damning statements/accusations about another SC2 team.
Given the way this whole mess has played out it is probably best that CoL are not stuck with him. His character in the situation has been telling to say the least....
On September 20 2011 22:28 -Archangel- wrote: This statement sound like something politicians from my country say every day on TV. It sound like a lot of talk and no content.
don't worry, they sound like that in my country too lol.
And also, I like millenium and all, but they really should explain wtf is going on. I mean, so far, I know that Col is pissed and Mil are acting like the guys trying to chill the ambiance, but kinda failing right now...
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
yes but just like i am currently employed by my company, without a contract i am free to leave at any time. the same situation applies.
If he was paid, but was not under contract, was he working black is that what you are saying? That is hardly any better. Though I find it hard to believe that such would be the case.
On September 22 2011 02:13 FluidKMC wrote: maybe i dont understand how the law works but how could milennium even have a case?
its a french thing. you can back out of some contracts within a 30 day grace period, maybe.
any citizen can back out of a contract with a non citizen in 30 days with no penalty. Basicaly Mill is untouchable with this.
source please.
What he said.
I would also like a source for this... I've seen it stated in multiple places adressing this topic, but I have yet to see proof of its existence... It seems extremely shifty that this law would be all encompassing....
On September 22 2011 02:13 FluidKMC wrote: maybe i dont understand how the law works but how could milennium even have a case?
its a french thing. you can back out of some contracts within a 30 day grace period, maybe.
any citizen can back out of a contract with a non citizen in 30 days with no penalty. Basicaly Mill is untouchable with this.
source please.
What he said.
I would also like a source for this... I've seen it stated in multiple places adressing this topic, but I have yet to see proof of its existence... It seems extremely shifty that this law would be all encompassing....
I don't have the source with me, but if you look trough the pages of the second Stephano thread (this being the third), the source was stated many times, and how in France there is a 30 day reconsideration period for contracts.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
yes but just like i am currently employed by my company, without a contract i am free to leave at any time. the same situation applies.
Personally I still think a company such as Col should've gone through Mill getting Stephano, but seeing as Col said they had talks with Stephano for almost 3 weeks before he signed, Mill must've known it was going on(and statement from Col says there was kinda a bidding war, so that they didn't really go through Mill didnt end up having any effect). Then when Mill knows he has signed a contract to Col, to get him to sign with them too, saying "dont worry its not binding"...
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
The irony is that you mention disgusting assertions when that is what Millenium did towards Complexity. Also you can see Complexity stealing Stephano but you can't see Millenium doing it?
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
yes but just like i am currently employed by my company, without a contract i am free to leave at any time. the same situation applies.
Personally I still think a company such as Col should've gone through Mill getting Stephano, but seeing as Col said they had talks with Stephano for almost 3 weeks before he signed, Mill must've known it was going on(and statement from Col says there was kinda a bidding war, so that they didn't really go through Mill didnt end up having any effect). Then when Mill knows he has signed a contract to Col, to get him to sign with them too, saying "dont worry its not binding"...
It'd make no sense to go through Mill if he was already a free agent.
Well regardless of whatever happens, Millennium has completely lost my respect. If they wanted to keep Stephano so badly, they should've outbid Complexity for him, not spend 8 hours to "convince" him to come back after he's already signed a contract.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
yes but just like i am currently employed by my company, without a contract i am free to leave at any time. the same situation applies.
Personally I still think a company such as Col should've gone through Mill getting Stephano, but seeing as Col said they had talks with Stephano for almost 3 weeks before he signed, Mill must've known it was going on(and statement from Col says there was kinda a bidding war, so that they didn't really go through Mill didnt end up having any effect). Then when Mill knows he has signed a contract to Col, to get him to sign with them too, saying "dont worry its not binding"...
It'd make no sense to go through Mill if he was already a free agent.
I suppose it depends on Cols knowledge before talking with stephano, if they knew he was a free agent beforehand, I assumed they probably didn't.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
Wait, what ? Stolen ? No contracts where there in the first place. Milleniums statement wasn't even a statement. The only side we know for sure is the one CoL has posted. So I'll side with them. Weird how Millenium avoids the matter with that worthless statement, eh ?
I agrree stolen is a hard word for this, but even without contract, Stephano is a part of millenium, he is payed and play for them. Somedays before this affair, Mill's manager was confirming that Stephano will be in Millenium for the next year. So, for me there is something wrong in Col's side.
About the statement, we can have the feeling that Mill is making fun of us, but maybe they don't want unlike Col, to publicize intern issues. They lack of transparence, but it's their politic, and that's seem okay for me. We don't need to know everything.
Like I said, I'm not trying to put light on the issue, I'm just saying that you and me can't judge, while we know nothing.
yes but just like i am currently employed by my company, without a contract i am free to leave at any time. the same situation applies.
Personally I still think a company such as Col should've gone through Mill getting Stephano, but seeing as Col said they had talks with Stephano for almost 3 weeks before he signed, Mill must've known it was going on(and statement from Col says there was kinda a bidding war, so that they didn't really go through Mill didnt end up having any effect). Then when Mill knows he has signed a contract to Col, to get him to sign with them too, saying "dont worry its not binding"...
It'd make no sense to go through Mill if he was already a free agent.
I suppose it depends on Cols knowledge before talking with stephano, if they knew he was a free agent beforehand, I assumed they probably didn't.
They asked him, he said he was not in any way contractually obligated to Millenium. I see no reason for them to really lie about this and the fact that Stephano signed a contract with them would suggest that he wasn't on one with Millenium.
On September 22 2011 02:13 FluidKMC wrote: maybe i dont understand how the law works but how could milennium even have a case?
its a french thing. you can back out of some contracts within a 30 day grace period, maybe.
any citizen can back out of a contract with a non citizen in 30 days with no penalty. Basicaly Mill is untouchable with this.
source please.
What he said.
I would also like a source for this... I've seen it stated in multiple places adressing this topic, but I have yet to see proof of its existence... It seems extremely shifty that this law would be all encompassing....
I don't have the source with me, but if you look trough the pages of the second Stephano thread (this being the third), the source was stated many times, and how in France there is a 30 day reconsideration period for contracts.
yes as has been stated in this thread too, however, that varies based on the type of contract, some of which don't have reconsideration periods. i believe pietr.....or someone to that effect....made a very lengthy post early with sources, none of which mentioned an all encompassing reconsideration period here it is + Show Spoiler +
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote: Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).
First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases. + Show Spoiler +
The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used. + Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français « il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »
he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court. Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that contains words or notions that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms (the commun example is the job itself). + Show Spoiler +
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger. The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.
The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.
In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled. + Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.
For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.
Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...). + Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430 Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants : 1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ; 2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ; When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases: 1. When it is shown to be involved in the break; 2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;
It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.
Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion. Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here. There is also the case of force majeure that can be called. + Show Spoiler +
So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.
My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise... Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…
On September 20 2011 22:29 iNViCiOUZ wrote: So an official anouncement fomr CompLexity over thir website, over reddit.com and over TL is "Internet gossip"? What dou you guys think you are?
i think they are talking about the 150 pages of crap that appeared yesterday. and if they dont want everyone to know about their discussions with col, who cares if the problem is solved at the end. i dont get why people on a forum would be entitled to know everything about the signing of a contract.
The whole point here is that E-sports is becoming more and more professional right? Well when there is a legal matter between teams in the NFL, or even the strike recently, the people want, and deserve to be informed. What would Millennium and complexity be without the "people on a forum?" Absolutely nothing. Some dudes on a computer who happen to be good at a game. Instead, because of us, they are professional gamers. Therefore, we deserve an explanation for what is occurring, especially since complexity has, presumably, understood the aforementioned idea and given us the exact details from their perspective.
We deserve the truth. These teams answer to the fans.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
The irony is that you mention disgusting assertions when that is what Millenium did towards Complexity. Also you can see Complexity stealing Stephano but you can't see Millenium doing it?
Your whole post reeks of bias.
I think you did not understand my point. I don't care, I'm biased by giving another pov and saying we have to suspend our judgement, yeah...
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
The irony is that you mention disgusting assertions when that is what Millenium did towards Complexity. Also you can see Complexity stealing Stephano but you can't see Millenium doing it?
Your whole post reeks of bias.
I think you did not understand my point. I don't care, I'm biased by giving another pov and saying we have to suspend our judgement, yeah...
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
The irony is that you mention disgusting assertions when that is what Millenium did towards Complexity. Also you can see Complexity stealing Stephano but you can't see Millenium doing it?
Your whole post reeks of bias.
I think you did not understand my point. I don't care, I'm biased by giving another pov and saying we have to suspend our judgement, yeah...
You clearly are biased, and coL did no sort of "stealing" whatsoever since Stephano wasn't contracted. If anything, that's what Mill did.
On September 21 2011 23:42 Testuser wrote: Hi Mill. I have no respect for you whatsoever after this (nor Stephano). Col seeks to expand e-sports, and are doing a very good job at it. I understand their frustration, and I do not wish to tune in to any casts/streaming involving your team. I'm not angry, merely disgusted at your apparent lack of professionalism. If e-sports is going to grow, things needs to be done the right way, which you didn't. The best thing you can do right now is kick Stephano of the team, so there can at least be some fairness, we don't need such people in all honesty.
Sincerely, me.
Please, I want to understand why you are "disgusted". Because a team doesn't want the player they made big; to be stolen by anoter team ? Yeah, the way it happened is unprofessionnal, but imho, it's only stephano's fault by not really thinking about consequences, and now Mill try their best to protect him because he made a mistake.
Anyway, you as me, as all of us have NO clue about what happened. You can only have an opinion about the issue, but you need to stop making this kind of disgusting assertions. As a french player, I really can't see Mill's manager pressure Stephano the way you describe it.
The irony is that you mention disgusting assertions when that is what Millenium did towards Complexity. Also you can see Complexity stealing Stephano but you can't see Millenium doing it?
Your whole post reeks of bias.
I think you did not understand my point. I don't care, I'm biased by giving another pov and saying we have to suspend our judgement, yeah...
You clearly are biased, and coL did no sort of "stealing" whatsoever since Stephano wasn't contracted. If anything, that's what Mill did.
Stephano wasn't contracted by Mill... only sponsored by them over a pretty long period. Mill had a huge part in making Stephano a big name by giving him the opportunity to gain fame. Of course, they will want to keep him. This situation is pretty similar to the one with EG, Puma and TSL. And I remember that lots of people were calling it "stealing" what EG did with Puma. I'd still say that the term "stealing" is kind of inappropriate here. Still Gevna's post isn't in any way biased since it merely states that we should "suspend our judgement" because we "have NO clue about what happened". The biased statements in this thread are the one's that put the whole blame on any of the two teams, while lacking information to make such a claim. The only thing that Mill seem to have done wrong is to say that coL "disoriented" Stephano, which is kind of unprofessional, but partially understandable in the way that they tried to protect their player, who apparently (as stated in both teams' statement on coL's website) did a mistake.
EPT
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