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Statement of Millenium on the Stephano situation - Page 22

Forum Index > SC2 General
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shtdisturbance
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 19:59:17
September 20 2011 19:58 GMT
#421
On September 21 2011 04:50 Chill wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote:
Whoa... ballin'. Really appreciate your post - a lot of information in there.


Agreed, others should read his post It was for sure one of the smarter posts here, with more facts and less opinions.
ThirdDegree
Profile Joined February 2011
United States329 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 19:59:45
September 20 2011 19:59 GMT
#422
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts



oh, because his was well informed, full of factual information, not bias, and not trying to insult the people who disagreed with him
I am terrible
itsjustatank
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Hong Kong9158 Posts
September 20 2011 19:59 GMT
#423
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts


Clearly trolling. His well-thought out and composed post was based on a study of the facts of the situation along with the attendant local legal realities that the situation entails. Whereas...
Photographer"nosotros estamos backamos" - setsuko
shtdisturbance
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada613 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 20:00:00
September 20 2011 19:59 GMT
#424
double
Tyrr
Profile Joined March 2011
United States216 Posts
September 20 2011 19:59 GMT
#425
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts


you have got to be joking
im bad
ManaO
Profile Joined April 2011
Italy185 Posts
September 20 2011 19:59 GMT
#426


So Maybe all of you dont belive that when you say to a team " ill stay with you next season " , that they plan to send you to korea , that they are building a team house for you , etc.
That count for nothing ... for me it doesnt.. sorry.


We got it man, you've expressed your opinion a lot of times. Now shut it thanks
No fear, Dr. Smith is here
polysciguy
Profile Joined August 2010
United States488 Posts
September 20 2011 20:00 GMT
#427
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts

he isn't talking about moral obligations to teams because your id has Mill in it.
glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever---napoleon
Diamond
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States10796 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 20:04:04
September 20 2011 20:01 GMT
#428
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts


Because his post not only makes sense, it is filled with facts and useful information, whereas yours is opinions and crazy conjecture.
Ballistix Gaming Global Gaming/Esports Marketing Manager - twitter.com/esvdiamond
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
September 20 2011 20:01 GMT
#429
On September 21 2011 04:50 endy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 21 2011 04:42 itsjustatank wrote:
On September 21 2011 04:40 JimSocks wrote:
somebody said french contract laws allows him to cancel the contract within 30 days. definitely a dick move, but legal, and unfortunately col can't do anything about it.


In a legal battle, if coL wins jurisdiction in the United States, Millennium is in some serious trouble.

Otherwise, teams should think twice before looking at French players and French teams because it seems their ideas surrounding contracts are incompatible with other areas.


Wait, I believe a progaming contract is like any employment contract, which means nothing prevents you to resign from your current job right ? At least that's the case in China even though workers rights are horrible here. Obviously it's retarded to resign the day after you signed the contract, but it should be ok legally.


You can resign, but that does not mean that the contract ends that day. In most countries there are protections for employees and employers that guarantee that if at least one side does not want to terminate the contract immediately there is termination period before you actually stop being employed. Here in most cases it is 2 months. Employer cannot fire you sooner than in 2 months after officially informing you about it and you cannot leave sooner than in 2 months after officially informing your employer about it. Of course unless both sides agree on immediate resolution.
Roggay
Profile Joined April 2010
Switzerland6320 Posts
September 20 2011 20:02 GMT
#430
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
Let’s do something serious. I wrote a first post on this subject sooner but here is another version, I can’t stand reading some fantasy stuff. (I’m French sorry for my poor English, have read TL forum for years but I have never something interesting to say so I’m new).

First of all I would like to say that if Stephano signed a legal contract in US, the French jurisdiction will certainly understand that and claimed that it is perfectly legal (unless it is against international treaties but it's obviously not). In fact when you are hired by a foreign company, you have to choose with your employer which country do you choose for the law. If you don't, the law is the one where you do your job. If you move a lot for your job, the law is where your company is. The determination of the law court is totally dependent of the choice made for the applicable law. Stephano can ask to bring the case behind a French one. This is the Convention of Rome for European countries and it is used for other countries as well. Labor law in France is not mainly governed by laws but it's governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). That's why in order to understand a case, you have to know many other cases.
+ Show Spoiler +
http://europa.eu/legislation_summaries/justice_freedom_security/judicial_cooperation_in_civil_matters/l33109_en.htm


The convention of Rome is a convention between European countries but all the cases between France and a foreign country that I know are stated in regard of the convention of Rome. It is the Article 3 of the French Code Civil. The convention of Rome is obviously not applied but, because France’s labor law is not law, the bases are used. Labor law in France is mainly governed by case law and collective bargaining. The law just gives the main lines (no work under 18, no harassment etc). Obviously if the foreign country breaks another convention (human rights, whatever...), convention of Rome is not used.
+ Show Spoiler +
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_3_du_code_civil_français
« il devra consulter l'une des règles de conflit de lois contenue dans la Convention de Rome du 19 juin 1980 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (entrée en vigueur en 1991 et liant la France, remplacée par le Règlement (CE) n° 59/2008 du 17 juin 2008 sur la loi applicable aux obligations contractuelles (Rome I), entré en vigueur le 17 décembre 2009 par le Conseil Européen), et le cas échéant, appliquer d'office la loi étrangère désignée compétente… À moins qu'il n'invoque une loi de police nationale, dont le champ d'application est territorial (v. cependant section suivante) (article 7§2 de la Convention de Rome). Auquel cas l'unilatéralisme prévaudra21, la loi de police du for (du juge saisi) sera appliquée (lex fori). H. Batiffol et P. Lagarde soulignent que les magistrats français font une application modérée de cette voie unilatéraliste, qui ouvrirait la porte au nationalisme juridique. »

he should consult one of the rules of conflict of laws contained in the Rome Convention of June 19, 1980on the law applicable to contractual obligations (entered into force in 1991 between France, replaced by Regulation (EC) No 59 / 2008 of 17 June 2008 on the law applicable to contractual obligations (Rome I), effective December 17, 2009 by the European Council), and where appropriate, automatically apply the law designated foreign jurisdiction ... unless that he cites a law of national police, whose scope isterritorial (see next section, however) (article 7 § 2 of the Rome Convention). In which case unilateralismprevails, the law of the forum (the judge) will be applied (lex fori). H. Batiffol and P. Lagarde stressed thatFrench judges are a moderate application of this unilaterally, which would open the door to legal nationalism.



Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court.
Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms.
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html
Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger.
The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.


The fact is that we don’t know what Stephano has signed. Maybe it is an international contract. The French law doesn’t know international contract but the European does. I’m convinced, it depends on many facts that we don’t have, that French court will accept this contract but that’s just a personal opinion on what I have read.

In France we also have something that is called loyalty (maybe not always in history but in labor law we do ) : if you sign a second contract while you have already one employer, your first employer can say "oh, that's not fair, he just has signed whit X which is a direct concurrent", and can ask for compensation. It is obvious that it the case here. A particularly clause in the contract is not required for that. So, I think that if Millenium wants to sign a contract with Stephano, the contract between col/stephano has to be cancelled.
+ Show Spoiler +
You can find many sources on this subject, for example : http://www.cyberpro.fr/AVI_qu_est-ce_que_obligation_loyaute_salarie_patrick_cuenot.html
Pour le salarié, cette obligation consiste donc de façon générale à ne pas nuire à réputation ou au bon fonctionnement de la société employeur durant toute l’exécution du contrat de travail, notamment par des actes de dénigrement ou de concurrence contraires à l’intérêt de l’entreprise.

For employees, this obligation is therefore in general not to interfere with the functioning and reputation of the company employer throughout the contract work, including acts of defamation or of competition contrary to the interests of the company.



Thus, this is another thing that is said: if Stephano has not signed anything with millenium, he just has to quit his job with CoL and to sign with Millenium. That's not that easy. You can cancel a contract if there is a probation whitout giving a reason in France. But we have to know the contract of Stephano to state on this because international contract are not really covered by French law. Also, CoL can totally say in front of a court that Stephano quitted his job because Millenium was here (and it's obvious). Millenium’s debauch is totally legal but it can be stated by a court that it is an unfair competition and that there is a prejudice for col (economic, moral...).
+ Show Spoiler +
http://legifrance.gouv.fr/affichCodeArticle.do;jsessionid=F6AFBAA58F763113E7B02AFFBAAB7DBD.tpdjo05v_3?idArticle=LEGIARTI000006645998&cidTexte=LEGITEXT000006072050&dateTexte=20080430
Lorsqu'un salarié, ayant rompu abusivement un contrat de travail, engage à nouveau ses services, le nouvel employeur est solidairement responsable du dommage causé à l'employeur précédent dans les trois cas suivants :
1. Quand il est démontré qu'il est intervenu dans la rupture ;
2. Quand il a embauché un travailleur qu'il savait déjà lié par un contrat de travail ;
When an employee has abused a broken employment contract, engage his services again, the new employer is jointly and severally liable for damage caused to the employer in the previous three cases:
1. When it is shown to be involved in the break;
2. When he hired a worker he knew already bound by an employment contract;


It is not an usual case: on one hand in France the employee has always a preferential treatment but on the other hand you can see that as a conflict between two companies Millenium and col. On top of that esport and sport in general are not really accustomed to this kind of things. Regarding the fact that the labor law is mainly governed by case law, it’s difficult to state whitout more information.

Stephano as apparently signed for a CDI with Millenium. You can set up a CDI in oral but when you do that the employer must send the employee a written document containing the information in the pre-employment declaration addressed to the URSSAF (an institution of the social security) and the future employee is not supposed to sign somewhere else...The CDI is describer by french law as the common work contract in France. An employer has to preferentially choose this kind of contract. You can translate CDI by indefinite-time contract, it means that the contract does not mention any sort of time notion.
Now you are wondering how a CDI can end. Because there is no mention of time in the contract, one of the two sides of the contract (employer/employee) must show his willingness to end the contract. Then you have many cases and many formalities, I dont think that it is important to mention them here.
There is also the case of force majeure that can be called.
+ Show Spoiler +

You can translate all this page with google :
http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html


So take a break guys, stop using caps lock or cliché about the French and the American.

My opinion is that Millenium doesn't look really professional in this case. For example they promise a CDI and say that Stephano will stay 12 months, that doesn't have any sense at all in France because CDI means permanent contract so you don’t have to talk about a period when you sign it, it can be used in front of a court by Stephano if for example Millenium decide to fire him after 12 months. (I don’t think so ). Maybe they thought that I didn't need a big contract in order to keep stephano and col's proposition was a surprise...
Also I think that coL will not go to court because it’s expensive and maybe useless (the judge may dismissed the case), it’s a pity because a case law would be a good thing for esport. And Stephano looks very influenced, I wonder what his parents are doing right now if the contract of col was so gainful…


That is a lot of information, thanks!

I don't think coL will ever take the case to the court, it would be too costly, both in money and image. Plus, they don't want to force Stephano to play for them (I don't know if they want compensations tho).
s1cK
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany16 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 20:16:13
September 20 2011 20:02 GMT
#431
the problem is for problems like this.. we need something like A GOOD G7 Committee..or the G7 WITH korean and chinese teams.. but they have to work TOGETHER.. not like months ago as Alex Müller (SK) and Mathews (FNTC) had a little smud fight.
I'M INSANE! [m](°ö°)[m]
rei
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States3594 Posts
September 20 2011 20:03 GMT
#432
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts

I do.
GET OUT OF MY BASE CHILL
Denar
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
France1633 Posts
September 20 2011 20:03 GMT
#433
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts


Most hilarious post of this topic. By far.
AzurewinD
Profile Joined November 2010
United States569 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-09-20 20:04:47
September 20 2011 20:04 GMT
#434
Ignore the troll guys, stay on target...

+ Show Spoiler +
"...I want more people to be in that state more often, to see things not through the limited and rigid mind or the fearful ego, but through a heart that loves to express and create" - Xiaonan "Glider" Sun
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States45021 Posts
September 20 2011 20:04 GMT
#435
Millenium not being nearly as responsible and mature and efficient about the whole situation as Complexity. PR not nearly as good either. This "statement" doesn't explain anything!

The way I see it, between the three of them, Stephano is painted in the worst light (he seems to be the one who screwed up everything), Millenium is just not being very helpful at all, and Complexity just got screwed over.

I feel bad for Complexity.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Piotr
Profile Joined September 2011
26 Posts
September 20 2011 20:05 GMT
#436
You're welcome guys, I tried to do my best (I'm not a professionnal layer, I just studied labor law in undergraduate school). We must understand that we don't know many things about the case, we dont know many thing about law and even if we know somethings law is not a scientific issue.
T0fuuu
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Australia2275 Posts
September 20 2011 20:05 GMT
#437
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts

I actually went back and looked at your posts incase it was anything useful then got trolled hard reading about grasscutters and capslock. Massive facepalm. But its the funniest post of the thread so far <:
daviday
Profile Joined September 2011
Hong Kong33 Posts
September 20 2011 20:07 GMT
#438
hahaha xD
RageBot
Profile Joined November 2010
Israel1530 Posts
September 20 2011 20:10 GMT
#439
On September 21 2011 04:58 daviday wrote:
i dont see how priot post is different that my posts

Don't worry, we guessed you won't understand that
Zyrae
Profile Joined August 2010
France42 Posts
September 20 2011 20:10 GMT
#440
On September 21 2011 04:40 Piotr wrote:
Stephano has apparently signed a contract with col on docusign. For those who think it’s just an informal thing, e-signing is integrated to the law of all the European countries and the United States by the ESIGN and by a European Directive from 1999. Because of the professionalism of docusign and col, I think that the contract must be totally legal and it will be accepted by a French court.
Someone says that in French law you have to sign a CDI in French. That’s right but Stephano has certainly not signed for a CDI and if you want to make a contract that can’t be said in French, you can if you explain in French the key terms.
+ Show Spoiler +

http://www.travail-emploi-sante.gouv.fr/informations-pratiques,89/fiches-pratiques,91/contrats,109/le-contrat-de-travail-a-duree,3932.html
Le contrat de travail constaté par écrit doit être rédigé en français. Il peut toutefois arriver que l’emploi faisant l’objet du contrat ne puisse être désigné que par un terme étranger sans correspondant en français ; dans ce cas, le contrat de travail doit comporter une explication en français du terme étranger.
The employment contract must be evidenced in writing in French. However, it may happen that the usefor which the contract can not be designated as a foreign term without an equivalent in French, in which case, the contract must include an explanation in French of the term abroad.



You missunderstood or misstranslated this part, it says the contract has to be written in french, but if the appelation of the job has no equivalent in french, it can be left as a foreign word, but you have to explain what the job basically is in French.

(Minor detail)
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