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Did they just say that they always come< together?
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On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
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On February 17 2014 21:59 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:58 Skynx wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 ne4aJIb wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 Skynx wrote:
Who is that guy in middle of Flash and Maru? Has anyone seen him before? It is Baby! Lol thought its Byun and tried a sly joke, this is awkward... why he is in a prime hoodie tho? Oh then you are talking about MarineKing.
One is saying it is Baby, another one that it is Creator and you that it is MarineKing. LOL
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On February 17 2014 21:58 Skynx wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:57 ne4aJIb wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 Skynx wrote:
Who is that guy in middle of Flash and Maru? Has anyone seen him before? It is Baby! Lol thought its Byun and tried a sly joke, this is awkward... why he is in a prime hoodie tho?
I thought it must be TY, but it doenst really look like him. I keep looking, and I went to here for answer keke.
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On February 17 2014 21:58 imrusty269 wrote:
herO just made the best terran in the world look like a bronzie with great drop defense and engagement skill. #OUTCLASS
sarcasm?
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On February 17 2014 22:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:59 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:58 Skynx wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 ne4aJIb wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 Skynx wrote:
Who is that guy in middle of Flash and Maru? Has anyone seen him before? It is Baby! Lol thought its Byun and tried a sly joke, this is awkward... why he is in a prime hoodie tho? Oh then you are talking about MarineKing. One is saying it is Baby, another one that it is Creator and you that it is MarineKing. LOL
It was actually BoXeR
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On February 17 2014 22:00 opterown wrote:
kinda lackluster games today oh well
Well yeah, seems so after IEM 
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opterown
Australia54785 Posts
anyway someone with more passion than me should make ZvP for tomorrow ;p
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On February 17 2014 22:00 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:59 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:58 Skynx wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 ne4aJIb wrote:On February 17 2014 21:57 Skynx wrote:
Who is that guy in middle of Flash and Maru? Has anyone seen him before? It is Baby! Lol thought its Byun and tried a sly joke, this is awkward... why he is in a prime hoodie tho? Oh then you are talking about MarineKing. One is saying it is Baby, another one that it is Creator and you that it is MarineKing. LOL
You're talking about 'that guy'haha :D
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On February 17 2014 22:00 PanzerElite wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:58 imrusty269 wrote:
herO just made the best terran in the world look like a bronzie with great drop defense and engagement skill. #OUTCLASS sarcasm?
His storms were amazing! Great mind game by going blink all in too!
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On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins... *faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade.
But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
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On February 17 2014 21:58 raga4ka wrote:
It makes me wonder how Flash , Baby and Maru are at the top of the rankings in PL wins with those games ...
because in proleague so far they have been playing against Bteam level players, flash got demolished by parting and soulkey, terran can win when the terran player is far superior as a player but when its even, terran just gets smacked to the floor and kicked in the nuts
User was warned for this post
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On February 17 2014 22:02 michlin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:58 raga4ka wrote:
It makes me wonder how Flash , Baby and Maru are at the top of the rankings in PL wins with those games ... because in proleague so far they have been playing against Bteam level players, flash got demolished by parting and soulkey, terran can win when the terran player is far superior as a player but when its even, terran just gets smacked to the floor and kicked in the nuts
+ This is just a showmatch, they don't really play their A game or cute strategies.
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On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy.
b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other.
b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
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When I saw the lineups, I even expected terran dominance. I mean, those are without doubt the 3 best Terrans of all Teams in Pro League while for Zerg and Protoss you can argue at least about some players being the best of their race. (For Protoss Creator is clearly not) And the PL mappool isn´t that bad for terran either. So a 2-6 overall is really kinda shocking. Especially the game between Parting and Flash, I don´t get how you can lose after a BO advantage like that. xX
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Zerg should have this one in the bag, Creator drags down the protoss team too much.
If all else fails Soulkey will take 3 wins.
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On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
OK. Sure. Whatever you want. Not gonna lecture you because it is a waste of my time.
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On February 17 2014 22:02 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins... *faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts) I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade. But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost his lead (and more than that).
Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well.
Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
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On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
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So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
User was warned for this post
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EPT
