He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Pretty much. Big J's argument seems to be
1) If he can get away with it, it is not greedy 2) deflected proxy play cannot be punished until 20 minutes into the game if you play it out right because that is how the game works
It is like saying back in WoL BL infestor era, Protoss should never have lost vs Zerg because the game was balanced around Mothership getting off vortex on the Zerg army. Protoss only lost because they let their mothership get neural (mistake by Protoss player). Protoss players usually won when they got the vortex off, isn't that true?
On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote: [quote] It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Pretty much. Big J's argument seems to be
1) If he can get away with it, it is not greedy 2) deflected proxy play cannot be punished until 20 minutes into the game if you play it out right because that is how the game works
It is like saying back in WoL BL infestor era, Protoss should never have lost vs Zerg because the game was balanced around Mothership getting off vortex on the Zerg army. Protoss only lost because they let their mothership get neural (mistake by Protoss player). Protoss players usually won when they got the vortex off, isn't that true?
Nope, you could split your army far enough that even two vortex couldn't win a Protoss the game. Especially since you probably did not get the Archons to even use two Vortex at once for Archon toilets, so it basically came down do killing 5BLs with an archon toilet, while losing the rest of your army. NP on the mothership was for the most part an additional/easy way to win the game, but far from required from the Zerg to get off.
I'm not saying that deflected proxy play cannot be punished or should be unpunishable. But if a specific proxy cannot be punished by pushing that does not mean "it is not supposed to happen". Look, noone* has a problem with Zerg having to defend 1-2waves of Terran bio play before being able to push themselves without putting everything on the line. You usually cannot "just" punish the Terran for taking one bad engagment by pushing yourself. Noone* has a problem that you cannot just chill on the map with stray units against Zerg as Terran, even if you killed a ton of drones early. Because those zerglings will still rip your troops apart if you try to hit without a reasonably set up timing. Noone* has a problem with bio Terran being incapable of running into a siege line and you may be forced to expand a lot and/or tech to BCs, even if you got ahead.
*and with noone I mean most people that actually watch and enjoy the game
There are situations in the game in which pressing forward is not the right way to play, even with an advantage. But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
On February 17 2014 19:11 Tufas wrote: Race wars are so silly, we all know the best players chose terran, the manliest chose protoss and some strange guys chose zerg
On February 18 2014 01:31 Caladan wrote: Free VODs anywhere?
Other than that, Terran losing did not really come as a surprise. :/
Yes, on a big video platform. But I'm kind of confused if those VODs are 'legal', since on Twitch it tells you that you have to pay 5$/month. On the other hand, this other channel always has those VODs up and everybody seems fine with it. So I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the link.
On February 17 2014 23:39 Big J wrote: But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
Agreed. Blink all-ins aside the matchup is not nearly imbalanced as all the whiners would have us believe.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
What the hell is your problem? All you do is balance whine. Parting's Oracle got at least 6 kills because he kept it alive for a long time and the oracle gave him a ton of scouting information(which is half the reason oracle is useful). Even thou the oracle got deflected at first, it ends up being somewhat decent for parting because of his micro. And even then, he was behind in supply for quite a long while. People like you just whines about balance all day without even watching the game closely.
man, flash will never get revenge on parting. he never does ceremonies right? maybe if he beats parting in a gsl final or something. also can anyone tell me what the korean text says in here @1:57? thanks.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
What the hell is your problem? All you do is balance whine. Parting's Oracle got at least 6 kills because he kept it alive for a long time and the oracle gave him a ton of scouting information(which is half the reason oracle is useful). Even thou the oracle got deflected at first, it ends up being somewhat decent for parting because of his micro. And even then, he was behind in supply for quite a long while. People like you just whines about balance all day without even watching the game closely.
On February 17 2014 23:39 Big J wrote: But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
Agreed. Blink all-ins aside the matchup is not nearly imbalanced as all the whiners would have us believe.
Well, that is like saying 1-1-1 aside, TvP wasn't an issue in mid WoL. Openers (or the threat of) is a huge deal and it directly affects mid game and late game.
It is funny you call us whiners. When most Protoss on here were saying the match up was totally fine just a month ago. It is just these few weeks that there is overwhelming evidence and Blizzard coming up with more changes. Now, the defenders of Protoss are saying it is the maps and 'blink' only.
No, the game is not impossible to win as Polt has shown. But you can't deny the fact that it is tilted in the Protosses flavor.
As you know what, when PuMa won using 1-1-1, all the Protosses shat on him even though his Protoss opponent made some big mistakes. But all the Protosses blame it on 1-1-1 anyways, same with BL-infestor.
I really liked Terran's chances in this. I expected close series either way. Unfortunately TY was unable to get a win and he was kind of the critical point in the team. PvZ should be interesting though
EPT
