(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 2?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (12)
75%
★★★ - Good game (3)
19%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (1)
6%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (0)
0%
16 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 3?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (2)
15%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (2)
15%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (7)
54%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (2)
15%
13 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
14%
★★★ - Good game (3)
43%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (1)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
14%
7 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 2?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (3)
33%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
11%
★★★ - Good game (1)
11%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (3)
33%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
11%
9 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 2?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 3?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (0)
0%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (2)
13%
★★★ - Good game (7)
47%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (3)
20%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (3)
20%
15 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 3?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
17%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (2)
33%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (2)
33%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
17%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
On February 16 2014 20:53 opterown wrote: apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
On February 16 2014 20:53 opterown wrote: apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
On February 16 2014 20:53 opterown wrote: apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
Where did you find this information?
Special leagues usually were like this
For example
herO > Flash PartinG < Maru Creator < TY
for the all kill part it will be herO vs Maru and TY
On February 16 2014 20:53 opterown wrote: apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
On February 16 2014 20:53 opterown wrote: apparently the format is "Best of 3 / Entry + all kill formatch" which i'm not quite sure how to interpret, but there's been like barely any coverage so let's get the thread up for tomorrow!
Where did you find this information?
Special leagues usually were like this
For example
herO > Flash PartinG < Maru Creator < TY
for the all kill part it will be herO vs Maru and TY
herO > TY herO < Maru
something like that
euh, so the one winner has to win vs both the winners for his team to win in the winners league format? :D
On February 17 2014 12:01 Seeker wrote: Meh. It's just what I think they're saying. I don't know how it's Bo3 when they say 5전 3선 승제 승자 연전 방식. There's a 5 in there :/
Hmm, I don't know, you're the translator here, but google translate gives me this: "Winner of five out of five three-game series way line", which I can understand as Best of 5 matches, each match a Bo3. That is to say, the format you described, only with Bo3, which sounds reasonable, right? (In all-kill format for player selection, of course).
Edit: I mean, it's either that, or 3 Bo5 between each pair of players :D
On February 17 2014 12:34 shin_toss wrote: PvZ?? none?
The day after this. They separated TvZ/TvP and ZvP because ZvPs will probably be longer than Terran match-ups.
I guess the separation was done before soulkey vs reality
Maybe if Reality was chosen as one of the Terrans they'd reconsider, but I doubt that a separate day for all three match-ups is necessary... Especially with Flash, Maru, and TY as the Terrans.
Creator really ruins the dream Protoss team.. I'd much rather have Classic or Squirtle or something. Or even Rain, I mean shit. Creator only won PvP, he was terrible in every other matchup.
damn I didn't realize this is starting tonight. Won't be able to watch TT Go terran
Flash and TY will win vs zerg, Maru and TY will win vs toss imo
On February 17 2014 13:48 ArTiFaKs wrote: Creator really ruins the dream Protoss team.. I'd much rather have Classic or Squirtle or something. Or even Rain, I mean shit. Creator only won PvP, he was terrible in every other matchup.
well Classic and Rain are in Germany. I wouldn't rate Squirtle much better than Creator if at all after Creator won the JoyGear cup
On February 17 2014 13:48 ArTiFaKs wrote: Creator really ruins the dream Protoss team.. I'd much rather have Classic or Squirtle or something. Or even Rain, I mean shit. Creator only won PvP, he was terrible in every other matchup.
On February 17 2014 13:48 ArTiFaKs wrote: Creator really ruins the dream Protoss team.. I'd much rather have Classic or Squirtle or something. Or even Rain, I mean shit. Creator only won PvP, he was terrible in every other matchup.
only 1 protoss got more wins than creator during the season, and creator did beat a terran as well. plus classic and rain are in germany. and at least creator can still rag on startale like it's anything: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/JoyGear_Cup
On February 17 2014 18:15 fuzzylogic44 wrote: I don't get this format. Terran vs Zerg, and Terran vs Protoss... no Protoss vs Zerg, and what happens after?
On February 17 2014 18:15 fuzzylogic44 wrote: I don't get this format. Terran vs Zerg, and Terran vs Protoss... no Protoss vs Zerg, and what happens after?
pvz is tomorrow, all by itself haha. poor viewers.
TY beats herO Maru beats Creator PartinG beats Flash PartinG beats TY Maru beats PartinG
Terran win 3-2
So that if you win you play the 4th game, if you lose you can't play anymore? If only one person for each race win he plays more times. That isn't what i believe will happen though, just an example of how the format works, well im guessing it works.
Yeah it is quite funny how TvZ openings are back to WoL strats. Hellion Banshee Reaper is like still an awesome strat xD TOP does it every TvZ on ladder still and is top 50 GM
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Flash opens up reaper expand while Solar goes for hatch first into pool. Flash follows up with a factory while his reapers get a bit of scouting and damage in. Both players follow up with a 3rd base. Flash gets a huge hellion-reaper run-in into Solar's main and does a lot of damage. Back at home, Flash is going into bio. Solar goes into ling-bane-muta. They both reach 125 supply at about the same time, with similar upgrades. Flash gets a nice elevator into Solar's main while also attacking Solar's 3rd. Solar holds as Flash's splits are a bit ifffy. Flash's pressure is a bit too much and Flash takes a 40 supply lead. It's a bit too much for Solar and he kinda gets bopped.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On February 17 2014 19:04 Qwerty85 wrote: Great game by Flash although he did get lucky with that early hellion driveby. edit: and he looks completely unimpressed :D
I would love to see the killcount for that. Because despite it looking terribly because it went undefended for so long, it did not look like it got more than 10drone kills.
On February 17 2014 19:01 Tufas wrote: "hmm what happens if I dont micro vs banelings, I always wondered ..."
"Okay, I doesn't change that much. I still rape my opponent."
that was mainly the hellion runby i guess
I don't even know how he let that Hellion run-by happen and do critical damage, it is like that I am watching 2011... disappointing from the player of Solar's caliber.
On February 17 2014 19:04 Qwerty85 wrote: Great game by Flash although he did get lucky with that early hellion driveby. edit: and he looks completely unimpressed :D
I would love to see the killcount for that. Because despite it looking terribly because it went undefended for so long, it did not look like it got more than 10drone kills.
Yeah sometimes it is hard to say unless they are really lined up. But it was obviously enough since he outmacroed Solar so hard.
On February 17 2014 19:07 Nirel wrote: I want to see if any of the Terran players today learned something from Polt
Wait for Maru's games
Well Maru was always attacking all over the place right?
Yeah but it is not exactly the same style. Maru has different marine-marauder mix and actually engages protoss army straight up and relies on superb micro to dodge storms. Polt is very marauder heavy and avoids direct confrontation while sniping nexi and tech of protoss.
On February 17 2014 19:11 Tufas wrote: Race wars are so silly, we all know the best players chose terran, the manliest chose protoss and some strange guys chose zerg
Protoss do the most all or nothing plays. Confirmed.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Both players open pretty standard. TY goes for a fast starport, getting hellions and cloak for pressure. TY gets into the main with hellions and takes out 13 drones. RorO gets a few lings into TY's base, getting a fair few kills and good scouting. Somehow RorO gets 22 SCVs but the obs misses the kills. RorO gets an early 4th, baneling nest and spire. TY transitions into bio. TY drops well, keeping up the pressure, but RorO gets good ling counterattacks. RorO gets a relatively fast, unpressured hive. TY pushes out with marine-mine but RorO holds pretty well. RorO is ahead 200-150 supply. RorO starts 3-3 before TY and continues effective ling-bane runbys. TY's drop do some damage, but he still is slowly falling behind. His walls are never quite complete. RorO continues pushing TY around and is now 70 supply ahead. TY never quite manages to stabilise and has to tap out!
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On February 17 2014 19:24 boxerfred wrote: TY is so great at map abuse <3
Yeah, one of the rare Terrans these days that abuse every single map. But RorO is still really good.
Yep, like top20 of zergs worldwide or so. Like Sora for protoss, same level
You seem to hate RorO, I agree that he didn't play good in 2013, when HotS started, but right now he really is only second to Soulkey Zerg, just watch all of his recent games. His decision making and overall level of play is really really good.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
For those who dont know korean.. Flash clearly said he wanted TvP mech to work. Said the matchup is too stale with all the factory units useless. Hope DK is watching this!
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
Why does this always work so well for Maru against Kespa Zergs? If he didn't mess it up this badly he might have gotten the third hatchery. Kespa Zergs are too greedy, but apparently this time it worked out for Soulkey.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
hahaha wtf how can you say that
He is retired player that went to LoL, obviously didn't do anything, so he came back to SC2, didn't play a single official SC2 game and is already balance whining on a analyst desk. Great for him.
On February 17 2014 19:24 boxerfred wrote: TY is so great at map abuse <3
Yeah, one of the rare Terrans these days that abuse every single map. But RorO is still really good.
Yep, like top20 of zergs worldwide or so. Like Sora for protoss, same level
You seem to hate RorO, I agree that he didn't play good in 2013, when HotS started, but right now he really is only second to Soulkey Zerg, just watch all of his recent games. His decision making and overall level of play is really really good.
You are lying. Also, I'm not a RorO hater. I only hate protoss players.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
hahaha wtf how can you say that
He is retired player that went to LoL, obviously didn't do anything, so he came back to SC2, didn't play a single official SC2 game and is already balance whining on a analyst desk. Great for him.
clearly he's doing it in jest, he did the same at HSC when he was among the best in the world
On February 17 2014 19:24 boxerfred wrote: TY is so great at map abuse <3
Yeah, one of the rare Terrans these days that abuse every single map. But RorO is still really good.
Yep, like top20 of zergs worldwide or so. Like Sora for protoss, same level
You seem to hate RorO, I agree that he didn't play good in 2013, when HotS started, but right now he really is only second to Soulkey Zerg, just watch all of his recent games. His decision making and overall level of play is really really good.
You are lying. Also, I'm not a RorO hater. I only hate protoss players.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
hahaha wtf how can you say that
He is retired player that went to LoL, obviously didn't do anything, so he came back to SC2, didn't play a single official SC2 game and is already balance whining on a analyst desk. Great for him.
Or he could maybe be joking. I mean if he said 250 wins, that is kind of a give away of him making a joke instead of whining.. Some people really need to realax.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Maru opens with fast reapers while Soulkey goes for hatch-first into pool. Maru pressures with 3 reapers and expands back at home. Maru manages to take out 4 queens and follows up with cloak banshee. Soulkey counterattacks with lings and gets 16 SCV kills. Soulkey buys enough time for his spire, and cranks out mutalisks. Maru pressure with cloak banshees but doesn't have enough marines at home to defend the mutalisks. He manages to hold, but takes a lot of damage. Soulkey follows up with a big muta-ling-bane bust and kills off Maru.
Figured Soulkey would win since he pretty much just owns Maru but wow expected Maru to play a lot better than that. That just seemed like a case of when it rains it pours
On February 17 2014 19:24 boxerfred wrote: TY is so great at map abuse <3
Yeah, one of the rare Terrans these days that abuse every single map. But RorO is still really good.
Yep, like top20 of zergs worldwide or so. Like Sora for protoss, same level
You seem to hate RorO, I agree that he didn't play good in 2013, when HotS started, but right now he really is only second to Soulkey Zerg, just watch all of his recent games. His decision making and overall level of play is really really good.
You are lying. Also, I'm not a RorO hater. I only hate protoss players.
ROFL, I am not lying, there are a lot of Roro anti-fans here, but a lot of them will say that he is playing really good lately, as seen from that RorO vs. TY game. I am not really a fan of RorO either.
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
hahaha wtf how can you say that
He is retired player that went to LoL, obviously didn't do anything, so he came back to SC2, didn't play a single official SC2 game and is already balance whining on a analyst desk. Great for him.
clearly he's doing it in jest, he did the same at HSC when he was among the best in the world
Ok, as I said I don't know him very well and if he is trolling or not. I am hoping that he isn't serious.
On February 17 2014 19:44 Bagi wrote: Pretty much perfect reactions from Soulkey. Not too impressed with Maru, kinda sucks that the entire terran success of code S relies on him.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On February 17 2014 19:31 YyapSsap wrote: LOl marineking's witty balance whining is so hilarious
hahah what is he saying/like when he's casting?
The actual commentators always ask him on his opinion like "is that good for Terran" or just when TY lost they asked him "did he lose because he was Terran?" and MKP is like "TY chose the wrong race for SC2..."
There was a moment where they were talking about Terran doing so well in round 1 proleague with a record of 20-5. MKP quickly corrects them that about only the best Terrans are playing, those with class and that if there were protoss they would record a total of 250 wins instead lolol
I really hope that he isn't serious, if he is he should go back to LoL.
hahaha wtf how can you say that
He is retired player that went to LoL, obviously didn't do anything, so he came back to SC2, didn't play a single official SC2 game and is already balance whining on a analyst desk. Great for him.
Or he could maybe be joking. I mean if he said 250 wins, that is kind of a give away of him making a joke instead of whining.. Some people really need to realax.
On February 17 2014 19:44 Bagi wrote: Pretty much perfect reactions from Soulkey. Not too impressed with Maru, kinda sucks that the entire terran success of code S relies on him.
I hope Maru will do much better in Code S. Because he will absolutely need to. Maybe he is preparing heavily for his group because this is basically a showmatch event anyway.
On February 17 2014 19:48 Qwerty85 wrote: I hope Maru will do much better in Code S. Because he will absolutely need to. Maybe he is preparing heavily for his group because this is basically a showmatch event anyway.
On February 17 2014 19:44 Bagi wrote: Pretty much perfect reactions from Soulkey. Not too impressed with Maru, kinda sucks that the entire terran success of code S relies on him.
Don't forget about GSL, that as well.
Am I missing a joke here?
Oops, misread it as Proleague. Because Terran success in Proleague almost exclusively relies on Maru and TY as well (maybe Flash).
On February 17 2014 19:44 Bagi wrote: Pretty much perfect reactions from Soulkey. Not too impressed with Maru, kinda sucks that the entire terran success of code S relies on him.
Don't forget about GSL, that as well.
you people really understimate bbyong hes extremly good he might had a bad run at sao paulo. dosent make him not code s quality. hes very very good
On February 17 2014 19:48 Qwerty85 wrote: I hope Maru will do much better in Code S. Because he will absolutely need to. Maybe he is preparing heavily for his group because this is basically a showmatch event anyway.
there's two zergs in his group though
Yeah but maybe he didn't want to reveal his true strats that he has prepared for his group :D
On February 17 2014 19:48 Qwerty85 wrote: I hope Maru will do much better in Code S. Because he will absolutely need to. Maybe he is preparing heavily for his group because this is basically a showmatch event anyway.
there's two zergs in his group though
Maybe he doesn't want to show his real start (hopefully)
On February 17 2014 19:48 Qwerty85 wrote: I hope Maru will do much better in Code S. Because he will absolutely need to. Maybe he is preparing heavily for his group because this is basically a showmatch event anyway.
there's two zergs in his group though
Yeah but maybe he didn't want to reveal his true strats that he has prepared for his group :D
I don't think these results are that surprising. Flash has managed to stay strong in TvZ the whole time, TY is really up and down in general, and Soulkey owns Maru head to head
On February 17 2014 19:59 Drake wrote: wow no liquipedia entry O_o
#nopassion
Flash vs. Solar was bad, Soulkey vs. Maru was a bit better but still bad, RorO vs. TY was actually quite good macro game, both players were constantly attacking and harassing. So you should definitely watch RorO vs. TY.
Flash remembers the most important think in this match up. Upgrades, you HAVE to be ahead of the Zerg in upgrades, you also have to get 3-3 straight after 2-2 to have the bigger window of 3-3 vs 2-2 then also can spiral out of control for the Z when your everywhere on the map getting great engagements and denying him 3-3.
On February 17 2014 19:58 Ragnarork wrote: Aw, missed the beginning. Doesn't look good for terrans
Go Flash !
If you were rooting for T, be glad you missed those games lol.
Haha did they lose in a disappointing fashion ? :D
On February 17 2014 19:59 Drake wrote: wow no liquipedia entry O_o
#nopassion
Flash vs. Solar was bad, Soulkey vs. Maru was a bit better but still bad, RorO vs. TY was actually quite good macro game, both players were constantly attacking and harassing. So you should definitely watch RorO vs. TY.
Its weird to see how korean terrans have pretty much given up on widow mines. I have no idea how this is supposed to be efficient against large numbers of well controlled banelings.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
14%
★★★ - Good game (3)
43%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (1)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
14%
7 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
TvZ Game 4: Flash vs. Soulkey on The King Sejong Station
Soulkey goes for a hatch-first into pool while Flash goes for reapers. Flash gets an overlord with his marine. Flash follows up with fast hellions and Soulkey gets a ling runby into the main, but little damage ensues. Flash looks to go into bio again while pressuring Soulkey with hellions. Soulkey trades a few lings and cleans up the hellions. The game stabilises and both sides tech up - Flash with bio and Soulkey with ling-bane-muta. Flash is slightly ahead on upgrades. Flash does a few drops for pressure but Soulkey defends well. They both reach 130 supply at a similar time. Flash continues to pressure but Soulkey always defends well. Soulkey eventually pushes Flash the other way and starts to pressure Flash. Soulkey is now 50 supply up, 160-110. Flash never stabilises and Soulkey wins!
Flash should of won that but he was throwing away small armies pointlessly at 2-2. You can do that at 3-3 because it is 3-3 vs 2-2. But at 2-2 vs 2-2 it is no way cost efficient.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
14%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (1)
14%
★★★ - Good game (3)
43%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (1)
14%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
14%
7 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Zerg Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
i still vote tournaments should get contracted ads they play rather than twitch ads, i really enjoyed watching the IEM ads even if they got a bit repetitive over time.
On February 17 2014 20:20 opterown wrote: i still vote tournaments should get contracted ads they play rather than twitch ads, i really enjoyed watching the IEM ads even if they got a bit repetitive over time.
Yeah, LCS was great during the times they had contracted ads for Pacific Rim and stuff. Twitch doesn't slow down horribly to play an ad (lol Halo Spartan Assault) or get louder or crash when you have contracted ads.
On February 17 2014 20:20 opterown wrote: i still vote tournaments should get contracted ads they play rather than twitch ads, i really enjoyed watching the IEM ads even if they got a bit repetitive over time.
They should get more money off them as well because a ton of people use adblock and don't see a single twitch ad anyway.
On February 17 2014 20:20 opterown wrote: i still vote tournaments should get contracted ads they play rather than twitch ads, i really enjoyed watching the IEM ads even if they got a bit repetitive over time.
Yeah, LCS was great during the times they had contracted ads for Pacific Rim and stuff. Twitch doesn't slow down horribly to play an ad (lol Halo Spartan Assault) or get louder or crash when you have contracted ads.
Wait I wasn't listening properly but from what I can glean from half listening .. Flash said he wants to beat Parting, back in bw he never disliked/hated any player but Parting has acted in a way that makes him want to beat him really badly.. I think
On February 17 2014 20:34 Tchado wrote: Oh come on ! Flash is killing it and making the audience laugh.....while we have to listen to wolf......GET A TRANSLATOR PLZ !!!
I feel your pain Brother! Proleague could pay like 20 bucks to some guy he would translate no problem
On February 17 2014 20:34 Fjodorov wrote: ForGG the only guy who still can make bio work in TvZ?
Yes, he is our God.
Bio no longer works in TvZ??
not unless you are mechanically way better than the zerg. If you can outmultitask him and get serious damage done with harass, it works. But if he can keep up, it will look very silly.
On February 17 2014 20:34 Tchado wrote: Oh come on ! Flash is killing it and making the audience laugh.....while we have to listen to wolf......GET A TRANSLATOR PLZ !!!
I feel your pain Brother! Proleague could pay like 20 bucks to some guy he would translate no problem
They can just use a small percentage of the 5 bucks with they take from everyone next round and hire someone......if they do I wont have to hear wolf and LoL guy talk about game of thrones :S
On February 17 2014 20:41 liberate71 wrote: Breaking Bad dragged on? da fuq 5 seasons is perfect.
I started watching that series because everyone was hyping it. But the start of the show is so annoying and slow that I just gave up after first 2 or 3 episodes.
I might try it again it someday but didn't like it at all.
On February 17 2014 20:41 liberate71 wrote: Breaking Bad dragged on? da fuq 5 seasons is perfect.
I started watching that series because everyone was hyping it. But the start of the show is so annoying and slow that I just gave up after first 2 or 3 episodes.
I might try it again it someday but didn't like it at all.
I thought it was extremely boring as well. Admittedly I'm not too into TV but there was 0 hook in that series, no idea how it took off.
On February 17 2014 20:41 liberate71 wrote: Breaking Bad dragged on? da fuq 5 seasons is perfect.
I started watching that series because everyone was hyping it. But the start of the show is so annoying and slow that I just gave up after first 2 or 3 episodes.
I might try it again it someday but didn't like it at all.
I thought it was extremely boring as well. Admittedly I'm not too into TV but there was 0 hook in that series, no idea how it took off.
I watched Season 1 about 18 months ago, and didnt understand the hype at all.
Then about 2-3 months ago, as Season 5 was coming to a close on TV and everyone was losing their fucking minds over it, I decided to watch S2 -> S5.
I absolutely do not regret the decision, if the series isnt spoiled for you - definitely take the effort to watch.
On February 17 2014 20:41 liberate71 wrote: Breaking Bad dragged on? da fuq 5 seasons is perfect.
I started watching that series because everyone was hyping it. But the start of the show is so annoying and slow that I just gave up after first 2 or 3 episodes.
I might try it again it someday but didn't like it at all.
I thought it was extremely boring as well. Admittedly I'm not too into TV but there was 0 hook in that series, no idea how it took off.
I watched Season 1 about 18 months ago, and didnt understand the hype at all.
Then about 2-3 months ago, as Season 5 was coming to a close on TV and everyone was losing their fucking minds over it, I decided to watch S2 -> S5.
I absolutely do not regret the decision, if the series isnt spoiled for you - definitely take the effort to watch.
I thought season 1 was dull, season 2 had it's moments and now I am watching season 3 - and oh my god it's good!
Stork is denying how oracles are OP, and its infact more deadly in PvP. Has no idea why other players from the other two races are complaining. No one gets their workers killed by oracles..
Then the commentators ask MKP about oracles and if thats infact true. MKP: "Well after a week of TvP in my practice sessions.. Ive lost about 5000 scvs." MKP: "Its as if Im losing my hair one by one due to oracles."
MKP complaining about that exact sequence of zealots just being amove/forget and Terran players having to stutter/kite for over 20 seconds. Hes really letting it out tonight lol
On February 17 2014 20:51 YyapSsap wrote: Stork is denying how oracles are OP, and its infact more deadly in PvP. Has no idea why other players from the other two races are complaining. No one gets their workers killed by oracles..
Then the commentators ask MKP about oracles and if thats infact true. MKP: "Well after a week of TvP in my practice sessions.. Ive lost about 5000 scvs." MKP: "Its as if Im losing my hair one by one due to oracles."
On February 17 2014 20:54 YyapSsap wrote: MKP complaining about that exact sequence of zealots just being amove/forget and Terran players having to stutter/kite for over 20 seconds. Hes really letting it out tonight lol
lol does it sound really whiny or is it funny to hear
Seems a bit likes Templar-first styles vs Terran create these kind of small skirmishes, back and forth fighting and all. Colossus have a tendency to have one big fight and then either you win or you die.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
TvP Game 1: TY vs. herO on The King Sejong Station
TY opens up with reapers and a proxy factory, while herO goes for an MSC scout. TY lifts the factory up into herO's main wtf and herO doesn't see it. He makes widow mines, but only gets one out before herO scouts it and forces a lift. The mine gets 3 probes but TY loses the factory before he can make any armories. herO's oracle is unable to do much, and the game stabilises with both players teching up. herO gets charge and storm while TY's bio upgrades continue. herO gets HT and TY gets ghosts. TY moves out but herO drives him back with charglot-templar. TY gets a scary army and moves out. There are a few intense skirmishes in the middle of the map. TY gets a few good EMPs but herO drives it back. TY's lost factory is biting him in the ass since he still hasn't started 2-2. TY gets a good drop into herO's main, but herO counterattacks and smacks down TY!
On February 17 2014 20:54 YyapSsap wrote: MKP complaining about that exact sequence of zealots just being amove/forget and Terran players having to stutter/kite for over 20 seconds. Hes really letting it out tonight lol
lol does it sound really whiny or is it funny to hear
Its like a subtle whiny yet witty funny remarks/jokes in a semi sarcastic tone haha
On February 17 2014 20:56 sharkie wrote: meaningless match, but herO just outclassed TY in this game
He wasn't outclassed. He did a risky opening that didn't pay off. Same thing happens to zerg players and it would happen to protoss players against terran if they had openings you can't transition out of without being behind.
On February 17 2014 20:56 sharkie wrote: meaningless match, but herO just outclassed TY in this game
He wasn't outclassed. He did a risky opening that didn't pay off. Same thing happens to zerg players and it would happen to protoss players against terran if they had openings you can't transition out of without being behind.
Going to be interesting if the mine buff vs shields come in. The opening would have killed a few more probes and that can snowball quite hard.
Basically Creator asking if he did 15CC.. maru is like ??? and hes like ok time to show you how to lose with that build *sends stalker and it dies to a mine*, here comes the ORACLE! maru ignores, does the drop and says weas da oracle?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Maru opens gas-first into 1-1-1, while Creator goes for a gate-expand. Creator pokes with a stalker and it gets taken out by a widow mine and marines, and Maru instantly loads up an 8-marine drop while poking with hellions in the natural. Creator doesn't lose too much and both players are madly typing at each other. Creator seems to have a higher WPM. Another drop at the natural and main takes out more probes. Creator seems to be going for an immortal bust on the other hand, though. Maru defends well and Creator seems to be quite a bit behind. He still has the superior WPM though. Another attempted re-bust failed and Creator has to tap out.
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
Prime has a lot of fans in Korea for some weird unknown reason. Also, Rain and Classic couldn't attend because of IEM, I personally want to believe both were above Creator in the poll :D
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
Yeah, I was wondering too... Well, Rain and Classic were at the IEM, so they couldn't be there, but I think there still are better Protoss players than Creator. Zest is one for example.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
Liquipedia counts playoffs for some weird reason. KeSPA keeps normal season records separate from playoff records. It would be unfair to hand out most wins awards with playoff records included as player with lousy teams would be severely disadvantaged.
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
normal season, creator had twice as many wins
In what, 2012?
zest 2-4 creator 4-5
stop being joke
I was joking of course, but being picked only because of number of wins is really stupid.
that's how things matter in SPL, the season MVP is the guy with the most wins (flash last season) not the highest winrate (classic or sos or something)
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
normal season, creator had twice as many wins
In what, 2012?
zest 2-4 creator 4-5
stop being joke
I was joking of course, but being picked only because of number of wins is really stupid.
that's how things matter in SPL, the season MVP is the guy with the most wins (flash last season) not the highest winrate (classic or sos or something)
Innobation was #1 I think Edit: in that like, top 10 or something (not someone who was 3-0)
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
Stats were +1 regular season, Creator -1.
for SPL it's map wins that counts not win-rate
If you get fielded the most times you have a good shot at getting those wins as well. Poor sOs tho =/
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
Stats were +1 regular season, Creator -1.
for SPL it's map wins that counts not win-rate
If you get fielded the most times you have a good shot at getting those wins as well. Poor sOs tho =/
pretty sure creator was fielded the same amount as the other guys and stuff
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
normal season, creator had twice as many wins
In what, 2012?
zest 2-4 creator 4-5
stop being joke
I was joking of course, but being picked only because of number of wins is really stupid.
that's how things matter in SPL, the season MVP is the guy with the most wins (flash last season) not the highest winrate (classic or sos or something)
Innobation was #1 I think Edit: in that like, top 10 or something (not someone who was 3-0)
nope, Flash won MVP last year cause MVP = most wins. Innovation was the best in Kespa ratings, cause they have diminishing returns in place.
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
Stats were +1 regular season, Creator -1.
for SPL it's map wins that counts not win-rate
If you get fielded the most times you have a good shot at getting those wins as well. Poor sOs tho =/
pretty sure creator was fielded the same amount as the other guys and stuff
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
Stats were +1 regular season, Creator -1.
for SPL it's map wins that counts not win-rate
If you get fielded the most times you have a good shot at getting those wins as well. Poor sOs tho =/
pretty sure creator was fielded the same amount as the other guys and stuff
On February 17 2014 21:09 Bagi wrote: Why is Creator even there?
Not exactly someone I'd call a top protoss.
only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
normal season, creator had twice as many wins
In what, 2012?
zest 2-4 creator 4-5
stop being joke
I was joking of course, but being picked only because of number of wins is really stupid.
that's how things matter in SPL, the season MVP is the guy with the most wins (flash last season) not the highest winrate (classic or sos or something)
Innobation was #1 I think Edit: in that like, top 10 or something (not someone who was 3-0)
nope, Flash won MVP last year cause MVP = most wins. Innovation was the best in Kespa ratings, cause they have diminishing returns in place.
Nah I meant higher win rate, I think he had 1 less win but 6 less losses or something - I shoulda worded it clearer ^_^
On February 17 2014 21:21 Beta2k wrote: do i have to subscribe again? i already did once some weeks ago, but seems not to work anymore?
same boat here, not sure whats happened. I'm watching the same quality as before though, so I havent chased it up - but no chat during this is a bit meh
On February 17 2014 21:09 opterown wrote: [quote] only herO had more wins in SPL
Didn't Zest all - kill SKT ? Surely he has more wins ...
normal season, creator had twice as many wins
In what, 2012?
zest 2-4 creator 4-5
stop being joke
I was joking of course, but being picked only because of number of wins is really stupid.
that's how things matter in SPL, the season MVP is the guy with the most wins (flash last season) not the highest winrate (classic or sos or something)
Innobation was #1 I think Edit: in that like, top 10 or something (not someone who was 3-0)
nope, Flash won MVP last year cause MVP = most wins. Innovation was the best in Kespa ratings, cause they have diminishing returns in place.
Nah I meant higher win rate, I think he had 1 less win but 6 less losses or something - I shoulda worded it clearer ^_^
On February 17 2014 21:21 Beta2k wrote: do i have to subscribe again? i already did once some weeks ago, but seems not to work anymore?
same boat here, not sure whats happened. I'm watching the same quality as before though, so I havent chased it up - but no chat during this is a bit meh
which quality do you watch on? i only have "medium" :/
On February 17 2014 21:14 Tobblish wrote: People seem to forget that Prime doesn't have that many tophigh quality players to pick from so Creater have always been in the lineup.
so have players like stats, zest, sos, etc and creator has done better than all of them
Stats were +1 regular season, Creator -1.
for SPL it's map wins that counts not win-rate
If you get fielded the most times you have a good shot at getting those wins as well. Poor sOs tho =/
pretty sure creator was fielded the same amount as the other guys and stuff
On February 17 2014 21:21 Beta2k wrote: do i have to subscribe again? i already did once some weeks ago, but seems not to work anymore?
same boat here, not sure whats happened. I'm watching the same quality as before though, so I havent chased it up - but no chat during this is a bit meh
which quality do you watch on? i only have "medium" :/
haha, thats what I use. Twitch is a bit fucky with me recently (last 2-3 months) where anything higher I risk big moments of spinning loading logo.
Seems like Protoss players were just waiting for a ghost buff to start putting templars in warp prisms. How much more do they have up their sleeves though?
On February 17 2014 21:29 raga4ka wrote: Flash's 14 cc and macro are a sight to behold , his micro is not so bad either , but his decision making is god alwful at some times ...
On February 17 2014 21:29 raga4ka wrote: Flash's 14 cc and macro are a sight to behold , his micro is not so bad either , but his decision making is god awful at some times ...
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Flash opens with CC-first while PartinG goes for a proxy oracle but it does little damage. The game goes pretty standard from there, with Flash going for bio and PartinG getting storm and upgrades. Flash gets ghosts while pressuring PartinG. PartinG barely holds onto his main nexus, and takes out a large amount of Flash's army in the drop. PartinG then moves out to pressure Flash. Flash does get the nexus again soon after though with another drop, but PartinG is still camping outside Flash's natural. Flash manages to push PartinG a bit back, but PartinG soon pressures again with good storms. Flash defends and both stabilise on 3 bases. There are a few skirmishes, but none of them are particularly gamebreaking. PartinG does slowly pull ahead, though. PartinG moves out and attacks Flash's 3rd, and barely wins the fight there. PartinG regroups and smacks Flash down with his next attack!
Protoss has so many options and their openings don't even put them behind when they fail. I feel like they can throw out new stuff faster than terran can even dream to adapt to it.. I feel like it will take a long time for TvP to stabilize (and it will definitely require some nerfs to protoss along the way).
It was like "Hey, Parting, I have 4 full medivacs, so how about I will stand in the most clumped way and just aim your nexus, is it OK? Well, yeah, I just storm you, k thx bye"
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 40 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus.
Isn't that what a throw is?
The way it became a throw is retarded.
If you get a prism with 4 zealots in my main and I don't respond instantly I am dead. If I get 50 supply of MMM in your base and you move templar from your third to your main to storm a couple of times you are ahead.
The amount of effort it takes for Terran not todie to Protoss not to die is ridiculous.
Parting went FAST tech + fast third + upgrades AFTER going as first oracle for NO damage and he was ahead...?
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
HT are cheaper and a few minutes earlier + warpins so it is always 10 templars vs 3-4 ghosts.
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
When you get behind in TvP its hard to come back.
Hard too? I don't recall the last time that happened.
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
When you get behind in TvP its hard to come back.
Hard too? I don't recall the last time that happened.
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
When you get behind in TvP its hard to come back.
Hard too? I don't recall the last time that happened.
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
On February 17 2014 21:35 Disarmed wrote: zealots feel just soooo scary in large numbers gg
hots introduced the solution! Silly terrans don't understand.
No it is Blizzard who doesn't understand that you can't go for bio, medivacs, ghosts, vikings and hellbats, upgrade all those units etc. + hellbats have bio tag so they would get destroyed by archons and they can't be microed out of storm.
Terran has a counter to mass chargelot only in theory but it is not really possible to use them in actual scenarios.
You can go for hellbats like ForGG does but then you must skip ghosts. Or go for ghosts but then you can't get hellbats as well. And ghosts are still much more important to have.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
flash should have had that except that he threw 4 medivacs and didn't even get the nexus until he threw two more at it
On February 17 2014 21:37 Fjodorov wrote: Getting a bit tired of watching mass storms blanketing the bio army. A storm or two and you can split if you are good enough but just watching bio die to so many storms at once isnt fun because its there is no way you can micro against it. Ghost should help but im not seeing ghost being used successfully
When you get behind in TvP its hard to come back.
Hard too? I don't recall the last time that happened.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
Don't get banned man! We need you to translate the chat
On February 17 2014 21:35 Disarmed wrote: zealots feel just soooo scary in large numbers gg
hots introduced the solution! Silly terrans don't understand.
No it is Blizzard who doesn't understand that you can't go for bio, medivacs, ghosts, vikings and hellbats, upgrade all those units etc. + hellbats have bio tag so they would get destroyed by archons and they can't be microed out of storm.
Terran has a counter to mass chargelot only in theory but it is not really possible to use them in actual scenarios.
You can go for hellbats like ForGG does but then you must skip ghosts. Or go for ghosts but then you can't get hellbats as well. And ghosts are still much more important to have.
That is the reason they are trying out Widow Mine buff.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
Don't get banned man! We need you to translate the chat
On February 17 2014 21:35 Disarmed wrote: zealots feel just soooo scary in large numbers gg
hots introduced the solution! Silly terrans don't understand.
No it is Blizzard who doesn't understand that you can't go for bio, medivacs, ghosts, vikings and hellbats, upgrade all those units etc. + hellbats have bio tag so they would get destroyed by archons and they can't be microed out of storm.
Terran has a counter to mass chargelot only in theory but it is not really possible to use them in actual scenarios.
You can go for hellbats like ForGG does but then you must skip ghosts. Or go for ghosts but then you can't get hellbats as well. And ghosts are still much more important to have.
That is the reason they are trying out Widow Mine buff.
Yeah I know but that is again an early-mid game change, a way to maybe contain protoss on 2 bases a bit longer. WM won't work once colossus numbers get high and that is exactly the army protoss will have in the late game.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
flash should have had that except that he threw 4 medivacs and didn't even get the nexus until he threw two more at it
Parting got storms out already. I'd be very hesitant to declare that terran has a lead once storms are out.
Nowadays your attack is 'poor' if your opponent responds at all, like Parting? Even with something as silly as 3 fucking templar MOVING FROM THIRD TO MAIN and a simple click of overcharge? vs 40 supply MMM?
Maru beat Creator by dropping marines and Creator typing in chat.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
flash should have had that except that he threw 4 medivacs and didn't even get the nexus until he threw two more at it
Stop arguing. Don't try to be reasonable. You should realize by now that it's not helping. It's like the bl-infestor era, we have to endure the balance whine, focus on the cool things and wait until it's over. Too many people already got their mind on P op and see it in every single game (even if the Terran made huge mistakes) and sadly nothing you say will change their minds
MKP is boasting how he made what Maru is today by being his mentor haha making sure all the skills were transferred while making sure his weaknesses were covered with Maru.
I'm not gonna waste my time with the numerous Protoss forum knights. there's so many because they don't need to practice to maintain a good ladderrank trollol.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 50 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus and Parting didn't even have defense in his base -.-.
Well that exacly was a throw right there , he also donated some units on his first push on the natural ...
Donated? He tried to attack, that's all. Nothing was "donated".
it was a very poor attack
Define -poor-.
Parting gor 40 supply of units dropped in his base and has nothing to defend close by. Still came out ahead.
Flash's unit positioning was sub-optimal. He clustered his army between buildings, letting a storm catch them nicely.
We're talking about the stim push at the natural, not the quad drop.
Oh, sorry. That one was a slightly bad trade because zealots were out and he didn't have medivacs to kite them. Anyway Flash did pull back in the end to avoid severely overextending. It was still not a very good decision though
On February 17 2014 21:35 Disarmed wrote: zealots feel just soooo scary in large numbers gg
hots introduced the solution! Silly terrans don't understand.
No it is Blizzard who doesn't understand that you can't go for bio, medivacs, ghosts, vikings and hellbats, upgrade all those units etc. + hellbats have bio tag so they would get destroyed by archons and they can't be microed out of storm.
Terran has a counter to mass chargelot only in theory but it is not really possible to use them in actual scenarios.
You can go for hellbats like ForGG does but then you must skip ghosts. Or go for ghosts but then you can't get hellbats as well. And ghosts are still much more important to have.
That is the reason they are trying out Widow Mine buff.
Yeah I know but that is again an early-mid game change, a way to maybe contain protoss on 2 bases a bit longer. WM won't work once colossus numbers get high and that is exactly the army protoss will have in the late game.
I really don't think that is true, because if you attack JUST with Colossi to destroy the mines, there will be Vikings that have the same range. Also, Mines with upgrade burrow in 1 sec, you can just burrow them when the Protoss commits to the attack with massive Zealot army and pull back with the Bio.
I think that it will definitely help against masses of Zealots.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
flash should have had that except that he threw 4 medivacs and didn't even get the nexus until he threw two more at it
Stop arguing. Don't try to be reasonable. You should realize by now that it's not helping. It's like the bl-infestor era, we have to endure the balance whine, focus on the cool things and wait until it's over. Too many people already got their mind on P op and see it in every single game (even if the Terran made huge mistakes) and sadly nothing you say will change their minds
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 50 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus and Parting didn't even have defense in his base -.-.
Well that exacly was a throw right there , he also donated some units on his first push on the natural ...
Donated? He tried to attack, that's all. Nothing was "donated".
it was a very poor attack
Define -poor-.
Parting gor 40 supply of units dropped in his base and has nothing to defend close by. Still came out ahead.
Flash's unit positioning was sub-optimal. He clustered his army between buildings, letting a storm catch them nicely.
We're talking about the stim push at the natural, not the quad drop.
but didn't he have to attack? i mean he had to try and take advantage off the failed oracle, right.?
Yes, I think his 3 rax stim attempt was not bad. Unfortunately, the failed Oracle can still scout it and PartinG prepared accordingly... One sentry + Zealots. But Flash should have won without the quad drop disaster.
On February 17 2014 21:35 Disarmed wrote: zealots feel just soooo scary in large numbers gg
hots introduced the solution! Silly terrans don't understand.
No it is Blizzard who doesn't understand that you can't go for bio, medivacs, ghosts, vikings and hellbats, upgrade all those units etc. + hellbats have bio tag so they would get destroyed by archons and they can't be microed out of storm.
Terran has a counter to mass chargelot only in theory but it is not really possible to use them in actual scenarios.
You can go for hellbats like ForGG does but then you must skip ghosts. Or go for ghosts but then you can't get hellbats as well. And ghosts are still much more important to have.
That is the reason they are trying out Widow Mine buff.
Yeah I know but that is again an early-mid game change, a way to maybe contain protoss on 2 bases a bit longer. WM won't work once colossus numbers get high and that is exactly the army protoss will have in the late game.
I agree, its time they did something do terran lategame, bring back carpet EMPs by buffing EMP radius for example.
However what I can gather from David Kims reasoning is that he wants terrans to be desperate to kill protoss in the midgame because it creates games of constant aggression (and infinite frustration for terran players).
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 50 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus and Parting didn't even have defense in his base -.-.
Well that exacly was a throw right there , he also donated some units on his first push on the natural ...
Donated? He tried to attack, that's all. Nothing was "donated".
it was a very poor attack
Define -poor-.
Parting gor 40 supply of units dropped in his base and has nothing to defend close by. Still came out ahead.
Flash's unit positioning was sub-optimal. He clustered his army between buildings, letting a storm catch them nicely.
We're talking about the stim push at the natural, not the quad drop.
but didn't he have to attack? i mean he had to try and take advantage off the failed oracle, right.?
Yes. But he couldn't. That is exactly what frustrates terran. Compare this to the game where TY's proxy factory failed. He was miles behind. Nothing wrong with that, but same should apply to protoss but it doesn't, even if you rush storm after failed proxy.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
This style of casting really annoys me. They only bother to actually talk about the game when a fight happens. There is plenty of crucial things happening but they just talk about coffee?
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 50 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus and Parting didn't even have defense in his base -.-.
Well that exacly was a throw right there , he also donated some units on his first push on the natural ...
Donated? He tried to attack, that's all. Nothing was "donated".
it was a very poor attack
Define -poor-.
Parting gor 40 supply of units dropped in his base and has nothing to defend close by. Still came out ahead.
Flash's unit positioning was sub-optimal. He clustered his army between buildings, letting a storm catch them nicely.
We're talking about the stim push at the natural, not the quad drop.
Oh, sorry. That one was a slightly bad trade because zealots were out and he didn't have medivacs to kite them. Anyway Flash did pull back in the end to avoid severely overextending. It was still not a very good decision though
That is the problem terrans are complaining about. Flash deflects proxy oracles and yet, he cannot go across the map to trade efficiently because of PO. That is a risk/reward issue. If terrans go mass hellions in TvZ and get deflected, zergs will just ram roaches into the natural.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
flash should have had that except that he threw 4 medivacs and didn't even get the nexus until he threw two more at it
Stop arguing. Don't try to be reasonable. You should realize by now that it's not helping. It's like the bl-infestor era, we have to endure the balance whine, focus on the cool things and wait until it's over. Too many people already got their mind on P op and see it in every single game (even if the Terran made huge mistakes) and sadly nothing you say will change their minds
Wow. Hahahah.
Apparantly going for cheese without A SINGLE KILL is fine, as well as leaving your main completely undefended against 40 supply of units. Indeed, no mistakes from Parting!
That's exactly what I meant... I didn't say that Parting made no mistakes. Your answer is exactly what I was talking about. You took only that single thing out of my post to complain some more about Protoss, because that's the only thing you see
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
On February 17 2014 21:34 MapleLeafSirup wrote: Flash likes to throw TvPs
-throw-?
He lost when he lost 50 supply to 6+Overcharge while sniping a nexus and Parting didn't even have defense in his base -.-.
Well that exacly was a throw right there , he also donated some units on his first push on the natural ...
Donated? He tried to attack, that's all. Nothing was "donated".
it was a very poor attack
Define -poor-.
Parting gor 40 supply of units dropped in his base and has nothing to defend close by. Still came out ahead.
Flash's unit positioning was sub-optimal. He clustered his army between buildings, letting a storm catch them nicely.
We're talking about the stim push at the natural, not the quad drop.
Oh, sorry. That one was a slightly bad trade because zealots were out and he didn't have medivacs to kite them. Anyway Flash did pull back in the end to avoid severely overextending. It was still not a very good decision though
That is the problem terrans are complaining about. Flash deflects proxy oracles and yet, he cannot go across the map to trade efficiently because of PO. That is a risk/reward issue. If terrans go mass hellions in TvZ and get deflected, zergs will just ram roaches into the natural.
Blizzard is already experimenting with nerfing photon overcharge. We'll have to see how much that helps.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
17%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (2)
33%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (2)
33%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
17%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Maru opens CC-first while herO opens with gate-cycore-nexus. The game is pretty quiet. herO goes for blink-stalkers while Maru gets stim. herO moves out with his blink. Maru holds off the first series of blinks and the second one without too many losses. The game stabilises from there, with herO expanding and getting charge and templar. Maru moves out to pressure herO with MMM. He gets a good trade but herO stabilises. Maru drops herO's main and takes out the nexus. Storm finishes and herO moves out to attack Maru's natural. Maru goes for the base-race. Maru gets the nexus and some production but loses too much of his base to come back.
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
Poll: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (1)
17%
★★★★ - Highly recommended game (0)
0%
★★★ - Good game (2)
33%
★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (2)
33%
★ - Do not see this game no matter what (1)
17%
6 total votes
Your vote: Recommend Terran vs. Protoss Game 5?
(Vote): ★★★★★ - One of the best games of the year (Vote): ★★★★ - Highly recommended game (Vote): ★★★ - Good game (Vote): ★★ - Only if you have nothing better to do (Vote): ★ - Do not see this game no matter what
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
So deflecting a proxy build is a small lead? did you see what happens to fail 11-11 in TvZs in WoL? There is no recovery unless the zerg derps their banes.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
*faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
On February 17 2014 21:58 imrusty269 wrote: herO just made the best terran in the world look like a bronzie with great drop defense and engagement skill. #OUTCLASS
herO is after all the only two time IEM champion of all time
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:58 imrusty269 wrote: herO just made the best terran in the world look like a bronzie with great drop defense and engagement skill. #OUTCLASS
On February 17 2014 21:58 imrusty269 wrote: herO just made the best terran in the world look like a bronzie with great drop defense and engagement skill. #OUTCLASS
sarcasm?
His storms were amazing! Great mind game by going blink all in too!
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
*faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade.
But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
On February 17 2014 21:58 raga4ka wrote: It makes me wonder how Flash , Baby and Maru are at the top of the rankings in PL wins with those games ...
because in proleague so far they have been playing against Bteam level players, flash got demolished by parting and soulkey, terran can win when the terran player is far superior as a player but when its even, terran just gets smacked to the floor and kicked in the nuts
On February 17 2014 21:58 raga4ka wrote: It makes me wonder how Flash , Baby and Maru are at the top of the rankings in PL wins with those games ...
because in proleague so far they have been playing against Bteam level players, flash got demolished by parting and soulkey, terran can win when the terran player is far superior as a player but when its even, terran just gets smacked to the floor and kicked in the nuts
+ This is just a showmatch, they don't really play their A game or cute strategies.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
When I saw the lineups, I even expected terran dominance. I mean, those are without doubt the 3 best Terrans of all Teams in Pro League while for Zerg and Protoss you can argue at least about some players being the best of their race. (For Protoss Creator is clearly not) And the PL mappool isn´t that bad for terran either. So a 2-6 overall is really kinda shocking. Especially the game between Parting and Flash, I don´t get how you can lose after a BO advantage like that. xX
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
OK. Sure. Whatever you want. Not gonna lecture you because it is a waste of my time.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
*faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade.
But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost his lead (and more than that). Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well.
Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
Actually, colossi tech is 'safer' because you can get obs from robo to scout for drops/attacks while you tech to robotics and range, plus colossi do ok without thermal lances upgrade while Templars only have feedback before storm is finished. That is why in WoL, Colo builds were much more popular to defend vs the strong Terran mid game once stim and medivacs were out.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
Cheese is defined by answering the question "can it be defended if scouted" . Since 2 rax always kill zerg hypothetically, 2 rax is not cheese. You're a genius.
On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote: So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
*faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade.
But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost it. Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well.
Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
of course it did. One shouldn't be able to rush gas tech with no success and then defend with minerals only (mass zealots + overcharge). Flash had a nice stim timing, but it didn't force parting to invest gas (which he had no - hence flash should've been able to do massive damage after the failed proxy) in sentries or other useless stuff to defend.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins...
*faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts)
I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade.
But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field.
flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost his lead (and more than that). Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well.
Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
It doesn't take a perfect game to showcase issues. The fact the oracle opening that was block and didn't put PartinG significantly behind is already an issue. The rest of the game is not relevant for that point, and yes, Flash did make a mistake with the drop.
There is a difference between saying there is an issue with a part of the game and saying that issue was what caused one of the players to lose.
You can show me VoD of any 1-1-1 game where Protoss lost and I could tell you what micro mistake he made in that game.
On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote: So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
8 games at a special event confirms jack all
9 protoss wins for the past 10 tournaments does say something however including the type of finals you are witnessing and the amount of protoss players involved.
But .. it is indeed somewhat disturbing to see 3 BEST terrans get manhandled by not even their counterpart players (Id think the zerg/protoss lineup could look more scary than what it is now).
I as a terran and as any well designed race HAS to do some economical dmg because i'm behind in economy, The aggression is a RISK yes a RISK a word forgotten by protoss when they discovered MsC. Also I delay my tech and my transition to mid game.
Why protoss can still proxy cheese things that can potentially outright win them the game (DT/blink Not allin because it's not anymore) and still not sacrifice anything at all playing disgustingly greedy?
The low risk/ high reward of all currents "aggressive" opening from protoss is the problem atm. TvP atm is summed up like this :
1) try to survive to the playbook of "allins but not so much" 2) be behind in economy and tech because of 1) 3) try to take an edge vs protoss by succession of lucky/very skillful moves microing at least 2 front + defending from a WP. 4) eventually win after an exhausting and unfair match
On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote: So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
8 games at a special event confirms jack all
Yet one good week for Terrans in PL does? Week 2...
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote: So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
8 games at a special event confirms jack all
It's part of an on going pattern so we can't discard it.
On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote: That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
I think a big part of what allows protoss to rush storm or colossi is the fact that terran has a hard time to scout after the first reaper as the scan is random and it's hard to sneak a reaper once there is MSC and 2 stalkers. The terran has to prepare a bit for everything : oracle, blink all in (which is hard to distinguish from blink pressure), DT, warp prism drop. It's hard to punish the fast tech once you have prepared a bit for everything and the protoss has 2 overcharges ready. Then the terran has to gamble a bit on ghosts or vikings and the timing of the switch.
Polt brings a smart solution : stretch the protoss army at the maximum so colossi and storms lose effectiveness and it allows to abuse the superior mobility of terrans while delaying the gas heavy protoss army.
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Pretty much. Big J's argument seems to be
1) If he can get away with it, it is not greedy 2) deflected proxy play cannot be punished until 20 minutes into the game if you play it out right because that is how the game works
It is like saying back in WoL BL infestor era, Protoss should never have lost vs Zerg because the game was balanced around Mothership getting off vortex on the Zerg army. Protoss only lost because they let their mothership get neural (mistake by Protoss player). Protoss players usually won when they got the vortex off, isn't that true?
On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote: [quote] It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
No offense, but any recent discussion I've seen with BigJ goes like this...
Pretty much. Big J's argument seems to be
1) If he can get away with it, it is not greedy 2) deflected proxy play cannot be punished until 20 minutes into the game if you play it out right because that is how the game works
It is like saying back in WoL BL infestor era, Protoss should never have lost vs Zerg because the game was balanced around Mothership getting off vortex on the Zerg army. Protoss only lost because they let their mothership get neural (mistake by Protoss player). Protoss players usually won when they got the vortex off, isn't that true?
Nope, you could split your army far enough that even two vortex couldn't win a Protoss the game. Especially since you probably did not get the Archons to even use two Vortex at once for Archon toilets, so it basically came down do killing 5BLs with an archon toilet, while losing the rest of your army. NP on the mothership was for the most part an additional/easy way to win the game, but far from required from the Zerg to get off.
I'm not saying that deflected proxy play cannot be punished or should be unpunishable. But if a specific proxy cannot be punished by pushing that does not mean "it is not supposed to happen". Look, noone* has a problem with Zerg having to defend 1-2waves of Terran bio play before being able to push themselves without putting everything on the line. You usually cannot "just" punish the Terran for taking one bad engagment by pushing yourself. Noone* has a problem that you cannot just chill on the map with stray units against Zerg as Terran, even if you killed a ton of drones early. Because those zerglings will still rip your troops apart if you try to hit without a reasonably set up timing. Noone* has a problem with bio Terran being incapable of running into a siege line and you may be forced to expand a lot and/or tech to BCs, even if you got ahead.
*and with noone I mean most people that actually watch and enjoy the game
There are situations in the game in which pressing forward is not the right way to play, even with an advantage. But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
On February 17 2014 19:11 Tufas wrote: Race wars are so silly, we all know the best players chose terran, the manliest chose protoss and some strange guys chose zerg
On February 18 2014 01:31 Caladan wrote: Free VODs anywhere?
Other than that, Terran losing did not really come as a surprise. :/
Yes, on a big video platform. But I'm kind of confused if those VODs are 'legal', since on Twitch it tells you that you have to pay 5$/month. On the other hand, this other channel always has those VODs up and everybody seems fine with it. So I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the link.
On February 17 2014 23:39 Big J wrote: But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
Agreed. Blink all-ins aside the matchup is not nearly imbalanced as all the whiners would have us believe.
He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
What the hell is your problem? All you do is balance whine. Parting's Oracle got at least 6 kills because he kept it alive for a long time and the oracle gave him a ton of scouting information(which is half the reason oracle is useful). Even thou the oracle got deflected at first, it ends up being somewhat decent for parting because of his micro. And even then, he was behind in supply for quite a long while. People like you just whines about balance all day without even watching the game closely.
man, flash will never get revenge on parting. he never does ceremonies right? maybe if he beats parting in a gsl final or something. also can anyone tell me what the korean text says in here @1:57? thanks.
Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard.
And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did.
It is greedy -.-...
a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
What the hell is your problem? All you do is balance whine. Parting's Oracle got at least 6 kills because he kept it alive for a long time and the oracle gave him a ton of scouting information(which is half the reason oracle is useful). Even thou the oracle got deflected at first, it ends up being somewhat decent for parting because of his micro. And even then, he was behind in supply for quite a long while. People like you just whines about balance all day without even watching the game closely.
On February 17 2014 23:39 Big J wrote: But somehow these days anything a Protoss can defend is being called imba on. And I'm just saying, no it's not. The TvP matchup has its balance problems, but that does not make every specific game in which the Protoss won problematic.
Agreed. Blink all-ins aside the matchup is not nearly imbalanced as all the whiners would have us believe.
Well, that is like saying 1-1-1 aside, TvP wasn't an issue in mid WoL. Openers (or the threat of) is a huge deal and it directly affects mid game and late game.
It is funny you call us whiners. When most Protoss on here were saying the match up was totally fine just a month ago. It is just these few weeks that there is overwhelming evidence and Blizzard coming up with more changes. Now, the defenders of Protoss are saying it is the maps and 'blink' only.
No, the game is not impossible to win as Polt has shown. But you can't deny the fact that it is tilted in the Protosses flavor.
As you know what, when PuMa won using 1-1-1, all the Protosses shat on him even though his Protoss opponent made some big mistakes. But all the Protosses blame it on 1-1-1 anyways, same with BL-infestor.
I really liked Terran's chances in this. I expected close series either way. Unfortunately TY was unable to get a win and he was kind of the critical point in the team. PvZ should be interesting though
On February 18 2014 01:31 Caladan wrote: Free VODs anywhere?
Other than that, Terran losing did not really come as a surprise. :/
Yes, on a big video platform. But I'm kind of confused if those VODs are 'legal', since on Twitch it tells you that you have to pay 5$/month. On the other hand, this other channel always has those VODs up and everybody seems fine with it. So I'm not sure if I'm allowed to post the link.
Just watched all the games, holy crap did most of the Terrans play awful. So many really gigantic mistakes, terrible army control, bad engagement choices, questionable macro...like wtf guys, you're better than that.
On February 18 2014 03:26 KrazyTrumpet wrote: Just watched all the games, holy crap did most of the Terrans play awful. So many really gigantic mistakes, terrible army control, bad engagement choices, questionable macro...like wtf guys, you're better than that.
I'm pretty sure all players made mistakes, as, you know, they're after all just people.
Parting engaged Flash multiple times with his zealots in a choke and stalker+collosi attacking depots, just to give an example.
Just saying, there's a lot of comments over here that are way worse than mine, but because I used facts I apparantly get mass reported by a certain category of players??
With above, no, Maru v Creator was an abomination.
I'm paying a lot of attention to it atm xD I'm a little whiny kid in my posts and I'm not sure if it is emotional or because I write too rashly in my far from perfect english
On February 18 2014 05:27 SC2Toastie wrote: Just saying, there's a lot of comments over here that are way worse than mine, but because I used facts I apparantly get mass reported by a certain category of players??
With above, no, Maru v Creator was an abomination.
I saw enough of your stupid balance whine comments and after this:
On February 17 2014 20:56 sharkie wrote: meaningless match, but herO just outclassed TY in this game
Let's discuss after the nerf
LOL
do you even know who herO is?
A CJ Protoss player who has recently done really well, just like all Protoss players /troll.
Not to discard Hero, he is an amazingly crisp player. He was good before it was cool :D
I stop paying attention to any your comment. I like how people are mad and paying attention to only the game not to the players and they even manage to whine during showmatches.
On February 18 2014 03:04 VmY wrote: I missed the eveny, any games worth checking out? The polls aren't very helpfull these days.
I thought the two matches with Soulkey were pretty cool. They were kind of one-sided but Soulkey played super well. Amazing decision-making and crisp army control. I wish I can play zerg like that :D
Most of the others played somewhat sloppily imo, even Parting was a little sloppy.
Maru vs Creator Maru: (sweats) Creator: What? lol Maru: No scout? Creator: You were also late Maru: I said I was going 11/11 Creator: No rax dual CC hehe Maru: I warned you about it too Creator: Am I an idiot? Maru: You're mean
Creator: Hey Maru Creator: When you go no rax dual CC Maru: What? Creator: I'll show you what happens Maru: Show me Maru: I'm curious Creator: Got it Creator: Here I go Maru: Okay Creator: Here comes the oracle!!!!!! Maru: (sweats) Maru: (sweats x2) Creator: (sweats x3) Maru: I saw it well Creator: Oracle Creator: Is on the way Maru: Hurry up Creator: Got it Creator: It's almost there
Creator: Hey Creator: Maru Maru: Where's this oracle? Creator: Take it easy on me (sweats x2) Maru: I lost that battle Creator: Honestly Creator: Then Maru: ㅇ.ㅇ Creator: ㅇ.ㅇ Maru: Can't win Creator: Maru so good Creator: My probes Maru: ㅠ Creator: You're mean
Maru: Who is? (sweats) Creator: You are Maru: Why? Creator: Take it easy
Maru: Hehe Creator: Bye Maru: Why? Creator: PartinG's units Creator: On the way
Maru: lol Creator: OP (sweats)
Creator: Hey Maru (sweats x2) Creator: You're mean Maru: What? Creator: You said you were doing a 11/11 Creator: Instead you do a gas build? (sweats x2) Maru: Hehe (sweats)
On February 18 2014 05:27 SC2Toastie wrote: Just saying, there's a lot of comments over here that are way worse than mine, but because I used facts I apparantly get mass reported by a certain category of players??
With above, no, Maru v Creator was an abomination.
I saw enough of your stupid balance whine comments and after this:
On February 17 2014 20:56 sharkie wrote: meaningless match, but herO just outclassed TY in this game
Let's discuss after the nerf
LOL
do you even know who herO is?
A CJ Protoss player who has recently done really well, just like all Protoss players /troll.
Not to discard Hero, he is an amazingly crisp player. He was good before it was cool :D
I stop paying attention to any your comment. I like how people are mad and paying attention to only the game not to the players and they even manage to whine during showmatches.
You stopped paying attention and proceed to still comment on it?
Also, I don't see what is wrong with those comments. It's so obviously clear that those aren't ment literally.
Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
Exactly. in Wings of Liberty, this slightly less than two month period was more like a year and a half, only it was Protoss getting slaughtered instead. Think of it like this, in Wings of Liberty one player won more GSLs than an entire race of players.
This of course doesn't mean that this is ok, the balance needs to be fixed. But this isnt Broodlord/Infestor level bad or 2011 GomTvT bad.
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
Exactly. in Wings of Liberty, this slightly less than two month period was more like a year and a half, only it was Protoss getting slaughtered instead. Think of it like this, in Wings of Liberty one player won more GSLs than an entire race of players.
This of course doesn't mean that this is ok, the balance needs to be fixed. But this isnt Broodlord/Infestor level bad or 2011 GomTvT bad.
Oh comon, it has been more than 2 months (it is just gotten worse due to map pool) and protoss was never UP for an entire 1.5 years. Again, not saying protoss didn't have it bad for a while, but the 2 months vs 1.5 years is just silly.
And if you want to talk about GSLs, yes, Mvp did win more than the entire protoss race. But he also won more than the rest of the terrans combine... And since MC is the #1 prize earner (yes, he did have advantage of winning foreign tournaments early on), it is hard to say protoss was UP for that long.
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
What JJH777 said is true. Terran is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. Zerg in early WoL, Protoss in mid WoL, Terran in late WoL, were also underperforming, but not THAT badly, which is the point here.
Terran characteristics: - 10% of players in code S (could be 0% in RO16). - Top T winning against code A Protoss is considered epic. - Top T getting dismantled against other top Z and P.
These 3 characteristics combined at the same time are unmatched in Sc2 history.
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
What JJH777 said is true. Terran is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. Zerg in early WoL, Protoss in mid WoL, Terran in late WoL, were also underperforming, but not THAT badly, which is the point here.
Terran characteristics: - 10% of players in code S (could be 0% in RO16). - Top T winning against code A Protoss is considered epic. - Top T getting dismantled against other top Z and P.
These 3 characteristics combined at the same time are unmatched in Sc2 history.
You can't say that: Because Terran 'ruled' in early WOL we don't have a comparison for "top" player. Also, all races have had bad times in RO16, Protoss went there with 1/2 players too. Top T can still hold their own against TopZ/P, maybe not 50/50, but they aren't getting "dismantled". (See: Maru, Innovation, Polt, TY, Flash regularly win games)
On February 18 2014 10:14 JJH777 wrote: Terran right now is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. No race has had a 2-3 month stretch this bad results wise. Could just be variance but I doubt it.
loooooool. Toss and zerg had their horrible statistics as well back in the day. Terran is now just having a tough time, but trust me terran's isn't the worst. If anything it would be protoss (other then the past 6 months). Look at all of WoL and look at protoss results and you'll realize how bad they had it compared to terran especially now.
What JJH777 said is true. Terran is statistically speaking the weakest any race has been in SC2 history. Zerg in early WoL, Protoss in mid WoL, Terran in late WoL, were also underperforming, but not THAT badly, which is the point here.
Terran characteristics: - 10% of players in code S (could be 0% in RO16). - Top T winning against code A Protoss is considered epic. - Top T getting dismantled against other top Z and P.
These 3 characteristics combined at the same time are unmatched in Sc2 history.
Lol is that why Polt made it through to the finals of IEM beating some of the top Protoss in the world? get that shit out of here, Terran has 1 GSL with low numbers (mostly because of the map pool is just ridiculous for PvT right now) and all of a sudden they are the worst race in history of sc2? First of all, it's been 2 month since the start of the new season, so the "offseason" months don't really count because the whole player pool wasn't really competing.
Pretty much since the start of HotS until about December or November of 2013 Protoss wasn't even reaching the ro8 in most tournaments. I don't think we had any Protoss in the final of a major tournament until Dear made it to the GSL championship and beat soO.