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On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
Actually, colossi tech is 'safer' because you can get obs from robo to scout for drops/attacks while you tech to robotics and range, plus colossi do ok without thermal lances upgrade while Templars only have feedback before storm is finished. That is why in WoL, Colo builds were much more popular to defend vs the strong Terran mid game once stim and medivacs were out.
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On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran.
Cheese is defined by answering the question "can it be defended if scouted" . Since 2 rax always kill zerg hypothetically, 2 rax is not cheese. You're a genius.
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On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote:
So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses?
8 games at a special event confirms jack all
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On February 17 2014 22:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:02 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins... *faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts) I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade. But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field. flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost it. Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well. Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
of course it did. One shouldn't be able to rush gas tech with no success and then defend with minerals only (mass zealots + overcharge). Flash had a nice stim timing, but it didn't force parting to invest gas (which he had no - hence flash should've been able to do massive damage after the failed proxy) in sentries or other useless stuff to defend.
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On February 17 2014 22:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:02 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. On February 17 2014 21:57 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. Fast tech? PartinG was already teching to storms... Yet, if protoss gets a small lead with blink stalkers, they just keep warping in and wins... *faster tech than flash had with what he did (delayed Starport, not upgradeheavy, late Ghosts) I am not saying what Flash did was good in the current meta, yeah, it was a bad trade. But don't you see a problem when a race can do a proxy build that fails, still go fast tech AND defend aggression? Plus fast third is not that easy to take with oracle still on the field. flash had a lead regardless of his aggression getting stopped (though it could have been bigger imo). His downfall was the drop in the main that did not get the nexus. That's were he lost his lead (and more than that). Had he killed probes and run out, he would have increased his lead. Just camping the third while getting his third+ghosts would have probably been a good way to play it out as well. Imo, TvP has quite some problems. But that game did not showcase any of them.
It doesn't take a perfect game to showcase issues. The fact the oracle opening that was block and didn't put PartinG significantly behind is already an issue. The rest of the game is not relevant for that point, and yes, Flash did make a mistake with the drop.
There is a difference between saying there is an issue with a part of the game and saying that issue was what caused one of the players to lose.
You can show me VoD of any 1-1-1 game where Protoss lost and I could tell you what micro mistake he made in that game.
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On February 17 2014 22:16 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote:
So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses? 8 games at a special event confirms jack all
9 protoss wins for the past 10 tournaments does say something however including the type of finals you are witnessing and the amount of protoss players involved.
But .. it is indeed somewhat disturbing to see 3 BEST terrans get manhandled by not even their counterpart players (Id think the zerg/protoss lineup could look more scary than what it is now).
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When I go for a proxy build like this
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-609-supernova-vs-trap/
I as a terran and as any well designed race HAS to do some economical dmg because i'm behind in economy, The aggression is a RISK yes a RISK a word forgotten by protoss when they discovered MsC. Also I delay my tech and my transition to mid game.
Why protoss can still proxy cheese things that can potentially outright win them the game (DT/blink Not allin because it's not anymore) and still not sacrifice anything at all playing disgustingly greedy?
The low risk/ high reward of all currents "aggressive" opening from protoss is the problem atm.
TvP atm is summed up like this :
1) try to survive to the playbook of "allins but not so much"
2) be behind in economy and tech because of 1)
3) try to take an edge vs protoss by succession of lucky/very skillful moves microing at least 2 front + defending from a WP.
4) eventually win after an exhausting and unfair match
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On February 17 2014 22:16 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote:
So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses? 8 games at a special event confirms jack all
Yet one good week for Terrans in PL does? Week 2...
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On February 17 2014 22:11 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran. And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced.
But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all.
TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it)
Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
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On February 17 2014 22:16 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:13 Soohyung wrote:
So does this confirm Terran as the worst race? Or will we and especially Blizzard's game designers be able to find some new excuses? 8 games at a special event confirms jack all
It's part of an on going pattern so we can't discard it.
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On February 17 2014 22:19 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:11 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:41 YyapSsap wrote:
That matchup clearly showed whats wrong with TvP. Gas first oracle against a 15CC, even if defended and Flash has the eco lead survives the timing window to punish the greedy protoss TY PO, and then the ensuring HT vs bio army.. Once your behind as T, its going to be hard to win compared to Protoss. yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one. Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran. And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced. But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it) Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it.
I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
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I think a big part of what allows protoss to rush storm or colossi is the fact that terran has a hard time to scout after the first reaper as the scan is random and it's hard to sneak a reaper once there is MSC and 2 stalkers. The terran has to prepare a bit for everything : oracle, blink all in (which is hard to distinguish from blink pressure), DT, warp prism drop. It's hard to punish the fast tech once you have prepared a bit for everything and the protoss has 2 overcharges ready. Then the terran has to gamble a bit on ghosts or vikings and the timing of the switch.
Polt brings a smart solution : stretch the protoss army at the maximum so colossi and storms lose effectiveness and it allows to abuse the superior mobility of terrans while delaying the gas heavy protoss army.
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On February 17 2014 22:24 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:19 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:11 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:44 Big J wrote:
[quote]
yeah, because you are forced to right click a PO nexus when you see one.
Parting got behind and flash gambled on getting an easy win and fell behind from that. That shows nothing that is wrong in TvP. It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time. That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran. And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced. But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it) Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it. I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even.
Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
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opterown
Australia54784 Posts
On February 17 2014 22:31 boxerfred wrote:
Why wasn't ZvP played?
tomorrow
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On February 17 2014 22:31 boxerfred wrote:
Why wasn't ZvP played?
Tomorrow. Probably takes more time :D
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On February 17 2014 22:31 Qwerty85 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:24 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:19 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:11 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:48 Qwerty85 wrote:
[quote]
It is wrong in a sense that game opened up in best possible way for Flash, he was way ahead with expansion, the oracle did no damage and he was ahead in army supply with combat shield and stim finished. Still he couldn't punish protoss who was teching to storm at that time.
That part was the problem - the inability to do damage against protoss who does a failed proxy and is rushing to storm. What he did later was a mistake by Flash, but you should be able to do damage if the early game plays out the way it did in that game. He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran. And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced. But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it) Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it. I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even. Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy.
at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
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Someone should sub the games MKP and Stork casted 
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On February 17 2014 22:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2014 22:31 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 22:24 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:19 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:11 vthree wrote:On February 17 2014 22:04 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 22:00 SC2Toastie wrote:On February 17 2014 21:59 Big J wrote:On February 17 2014 21:54 Qwerty85 wrote:On February 17 2014 21:52 Big J wrote:
[quote]
He could have gotten a third or fast tech and punish the Protoss with that. Not everything works against anything, and fast pushing does not punish a 2base Protoss most of the time. Even more since YyapSsap put it like "whats wrong with TvP", I'd rather say that's one thing that is "right with TvP". You can't just emphasize on a small lead with a kill guaranteed timing as Terran. He wouldn't punish protoss in any way if he did that because protoss can and always does get a later third and Parting already had storm out. At best they would be even. And we are not talking about fast push not doing nothing to a 2 base turtle protoss, we are talking about fast push not doing anything to protoss who failed with his proxy and played greedy in a sense he rushed to storm after that. Protoss has to rush storm or colossus in TvP. That's not greedy, that's standard. And the way he played he didn't punish Parting at all, puting down a faster third or faster medivacs (his starport finshed after the 3rax timing was deflected, which is quite late) at least puts him in a better spot. It's better than what he did. It is greedy -.-... a) greedy is defined by answering the question "what you can get away with". Since Protoss can get away with it as seen in this game, it is not greedy. b1) Templartech is not more expensive or less costefficient than Colossustech in HotS. So neither of those two is greedier than the other. b2) Protoss needs Templar or Colossi fast against Terran. And we are saying that Protoss can get away with too much... Imagine if orbitals also function as planetariums and Terrans can go 3 CC before rax. You could argue that Terrans aren't greedy because they can get away with it. Doesn't mean it is balanced. But that game is absolutly not an example for that. Would it have hurt flash so badly to not go for this massive aggression? Not at all. TvP problems are along the lines of safe Terran builds falling behind against macro Protoss play while not really being safe. (reaper-->reactor with an ebay being very uneconomical while still you have to invest even more into defense against other aggression/allin play if you even scout it) Getting away with a CC first and the opponent not making anything happen with an early oracle... in such a scenario Terran has the upper hand in a macro game. But you still have to play it out, that's it. I guess our disagreement is whether Flash had the upper hand at that point. I thought the game was about even. Yeah. Parting was not behind at all. That is the problem. And if Flash did what Big J said - went for a third base, invested more into upgrades, ghosts etc. Parting would also be able to take his third and add colossus into the mix as well by 15-16 min. So at best, Flash and Parting were even after that failed proxy. at worst they are even. at best he plays it similar to how he did but gets the nexus or at least the probeline.
The whole point you are missing (either intentionally or accidentally) is that player who goes for super fast risky proxy build and gets no damage should be behind.
Not ahead, not even but behind.
After that, he should think "shit I am so behind I need to do something risky to get back into it". Then he goes for a fast storm with very low army supply(which appears risky) and worst thing happens to him - his opponent with quite large army supply comes to his side of the map and attacks. He defends no problem at all. So that "risk" he did to get back into the game wasn't really risk at all.
Other scenario would be the one you mentioned. Flash tries to go for that Artosis rule and get "more ahead" but guess what, next time he pushes he is behind in upgrades because of chronoboost, he has to deal with both colossus and storm and he has to deal with chargelots.
So it is only natural that he thought he has a timing window to punish Parting. Because that is how the game works in most cases. We are talking about very experienced pro gamer here, not some rookie who is 1st time in the booth.
If you don't see a problem with that I guess there is noting more to discuss because we will always see the situation differently.
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EPT
