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On September 28 2011 16:59 Nyter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:57 ZorBa.G wrote:
It's overpowered becuase it's completely up to chance wether if you scout it or not. I don't think the 6-pool is OP, I would prefer to say it's the maps which make it OP.
To be quiet honest, the only part of SC2 I hate is the early game because of cheeses and builds like this. But keep in mind, I'm not blaming the all-ins and cheeses... I'm blaming the maps which let this happen too easily.
Honestly, who in this world wants to play 30 games on ladder only to come up against cheese everytime? You never learn much at all. I would rather play 30 macro games, only because it's a much better way to futher game knowledge/experience. I'm actually resorting to just playing in-house and tournies only. For now, screw ladder.
I don't mind 4 player maps. But i think 4 player maps with only 2 spawn positions would fix alot of this. Then people can clearly say if you lost to cheese, it's because you didn't scout well enough. You bring a good idea. More maps with a shakuras plateau-like idea, limiting some spawn locations to 1 or 2 will make cheesing more effective (because you dont have to scout/scout less) but this is also an advantage for the defender. For now i'd just double scout @ 9 when i FFE ._.
Yeah, to be quiet honest imagine playing on those 4 player maps where it's "only" cross spawn positions. I apoligise if I go a little off topic here. But would cross position spawns force more macro play on the ladder?
In my opinion;
- People will still cheese, but it's more riskier as it can be more easily scouted + more time to prepare for.
- Would this make the terran 1-1-1 more weaker? You now hav emore time to prepare for it.
- Would it generally make early all-ins easier to defend against?
Obviously all the cheeses and early all-ins would still work, but at least it wouldn't put it all up to "chance" just because you didn't scout whatever build they did too late.
I think if the cross spawns were to be implemented, players would get more greedy with expos ect. hence why cheesing would still be effective. But at least it's more easier for the defender to scout cheap go-for wins from the opponent. Me personally, I am tired to death of seeing threads of "This such cheese got me to Masters." Honestly, woopy f**king doo! Now your in masters and what? You try another build and get your ass cleaned up! The only reason people cheese in my opinion is because;
1. They generally like to piss other people off and get excitment out of it.
2. They simply want the quickest way to masters, which is fair enough... but do these types of people really deserve the placement?
I'll admit though, there is nothing better then winning a game against a cheeser. It's the only time my BM comes out lol. I can understand why you would cheese in a BO3 tourney match, but ladder? really?
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On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
First I have to underline this statement because it speaks out of my heart.
Second there is a current thread about how to defend 6 pool and in THERE is a post which describes how to defend a 6pool:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258402#17
TLDR: don't be greedy, learn how to defend using the guide
Edit:
@ZorBa.G sure cheesing for zerg and Terran is harder and easily scouted. But there is a race that just can warp units right in front of your ramp! Considered this?
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Make a pool require a 2nd overlord (maybe build 5-10 seconds faster as well), as a Zerg/Random I would be all for it honestly. Would make ZvZ less retarded and PvZ a little less shitty.
I don't think it's "overpowered," it's just a TRUE "scout this or lose" build that is basically a 33% auto-win on 4 player maps. It's still only a 33% winrate against properly executed FFEs, but it's also 33% stupid wins. This, among other things, is why I much prefer 3 spawn locations to 4.
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On September 28 2011 21:16 Bad_Habit wrote:
welll haxxenspetten once u 6pool ull notice ever losing player will start whining about their starting positions, no matter where they start actually^^
Of course, but does that really make it any less luck based? It just adds to the randomness factor imo.
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On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
well duh lol, dont u know as zerg you are supposed to always play from 1 base behind at all times? sheesh noobs these days :D. But on a serious note just dont forge FE if he 6 pools and u dont forge FE and u stop it then u r way ahead O_o
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6-pool is no more over- or underpowered than 2 gate zealot rush vs zerg. What you need to ask I think is if FFE is a build order loss to 6-pool, and I think you'll probably find it is map dependent. On maps that have a very wide open natural then maybe you don't go FFE. You can't just do the same build every map.
Also, comparing a zerg fast expand vs protoss fast expand is stupid. Which incidentaly IS a build order loss to 2 gate zealot.
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you have to pull probes. this is the best way to defend. even if you made a gate first or forge first, you have to pull probes. when they attack your structures (pylon, gate, cannon, etc), attack them but the moment they turn around and start attacking your probes, you back away. Try to keep all your probes alive while you get your zealot or cannon ready.
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On September 28 2011 21:32 iNViCiOUZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? First I have to underline this statement because it speaks out of my heart. Second there is a current thread about how to defend 6 pool and in THERE is a post which describes how to defend a 6pool: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=258402#17TLDR: don't be greedy, learn how to defend using the guide Edit: @ZorBa.G sure cheesing for zerg and Terran is harder and easily scouted. But there is a race that just can warp units right in front of your ramp! Considered this?
That's a guide to 1 base defending a 6pool, I don't think anybody has trouble with that. I think the OP wanted to know how to do it with a FFE build.
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
I think 6 pool is very frustrating for protoss because whatever you do, when it comes and you didn't get to scout it in time (which can happen), you have basically nothing, which feels unfair. I'm not discussing the strength of the 6pool, btw, just that no other race has that moment where your base is completely open, he has 6 military units and you have like 16 probes. So yeah, as a guy above me said, you must pull probes and have a way better micro than he does or hope that he screws up. Because even with a zealot eventually out, you can always keep your lings alive in the P base.
You would be dumb not to cheese a protoss btw, it's way harder to defend any kind of cheese with protoss than with the other races atm. It used to be that 4gate was the Holy Grail of cheeses, very strong and easy to execute, but it's not the case anymore because of multiple P nerfs, which in turn made our defenses that much weaker. And those nerfs were mainly for PvP. Talk about a race destroying itself :D
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On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
wtf... so JulyZerg deserves to die because his creepspread sucks, because obviously he doesn't need it in his playstyle...
It's like saying: if a protoss forgets to chronoboost his upgrades he deserves to die...
If a Terran does a supply drop, he deserves to die...
And I don't know in which butter league you play in, but before you're not at least Platinum, I really wouldn't start complaining about build order losses, especially if a FFE vs a 6pool isn't a such, as you can read in this thread and see in pro games. It just cripples you to sacrificing the expansion attempt - and now don't tell me this is imbalanced! There is way more stuff in the game that cripples you way harder
On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:I think 6 pool is very frustrating for protoss because whatever you do, when it comes and you didn't get to scout it in time (which can happen), you have basically nothing, which feels unfair. I'm not discussing the strength of the 6pool, btw, just that no other race has that moment where your base is completely open, he has 6 military units and you have like 16 probes. So yeah, as a guy above me said, you must pull probes and have a way better micro than he does or hope that he screws up. Because even with a zealot eventually out, you can always keep your lings alive in the P base.
you obviously never played ZvZ... early pool is frustrating THERE
also ever played against a terran or protoss proxy?
against a terran that floated to the gold on metalopolis?
a protoss that blocks your ramp with a 2nd scout?
that's all stuff you often can't scout and you can lose to and that is all at least as frustrating as 6pools...
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For those of you complaining about FFE scouting on 4 player maps, double scouting is the key. You send one probe after pylon at 9, and then another probe after you build the forge and don't find them at the first spawn. This moaning about 33% and Shakuras being better is BS, if you double scout then on every map you will find them at second scout timing. This is something you will often see pro players skip, but it is the safest way to FFE, and it also gives you 2 probes out on the map for later in the game, instead of the usual one. You can then send the second probe to scout around 5 minutes for the next possible all-ins.
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I've had alot of 6 pools in Plat league recently - Zerg are complaining that they can't win a macro game with protoss (hi, have you met Brood Lords?) anyways, one thing i've found is on maps such as Tal'Darim, Nerazim Crypt (yes, the one with the rocks) and other maps that have a choke point at the natural are the easiest to FFE on (unless you're Killer and you just attempt a FFE on maps like Cross Fire :D)
What i prefer to do is forge at 14 and cannon as soon as its done BEFORE dropping nexus - only when i scout the Zerg and know a 6 pool isn't coming do i drop a Nexus and continue my BO.
If i do scout a 6 pool (i.e. lings running past or lucky first time scout and notice lack of Drones) then i drop another cannon or two and then drop Gateways to complete a wall off (drop Cannons behind where you're going putting Gateways).
When the 6 pool fails, especially on a map like Tal'Darim, drop Pylons around the perimeter of your base as they will likely attempt a Nydus - if you're going Stargate after securing your natural then make an extra pheonix to take out any lingering Overlords around your base, this way they can't float the Overlord in and pop a Nydus.
When they're attempt to plant a Nydus internally fails they will most likely try and get a Nydus outside your base for quick transport (probably coming in with Hydra's) so make you sure prepare for those too, however by this time you should be making a sizeable army and if you decide to push out, bring a probe with you and wall off again incase they drop a random Nydus somewhere else for the counter.
That's my thought process and how i defend the 6-pool + later aggression, hope it helps.
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On September 28 2011 22:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 21:55 ZenithM wrote:
And if a zerg has such a creep spread that you can warp just in front of him, he kinda deserves to die. Oh, and it's the same thing for protoss, if you let a zerg put his pool down at 6, then you...wait...deserve to lose 33% of the time, is that it?
wtf... so JulyZerg deserves to die because his creepspread sucks, because obviously he doesn't need it in his playstyle... It's like saying: if a protoss forgets to chronoboost his upgrades he deserves to die...If a Terran does a supply drop, he deserves to die...And I don't know in which butter league you play in, but before you're not at least Platinum, I really wouldn't start complaining about build order losses, especially if a FFE vs a 6pool isn't a such, as you can read in this thread and see in pro games. It just cripples you to sacrificing the expansion attempt - and now don't tell me this is imbalanced! There is way more stuff in the game that cripples you way harder
Actually, it seems normal to lose (that's what I meant by "die" btw, I'm not wishing for anybody's death obviously...) if you don't use the game's fundamental mechanics, doesn't it? You watch your replay and say to yourself "Man, I must spend that chrono more", or "I must try not to get supply blocked" or "spread my creep better", that's how you get better, you don't have to expect that everything you do will be magically forgiven. I'm not sure what I'm arguing against anyway... I'm not talking about myself, I'm talking about pro games. Nobody loses to protoss cheese or allins nowadays, whereas many protosses die to terran and zerg's allins (sometimes even knowing they come).
Btw, if a build vs build situation end up crippling you in any way, yeah, it's called a build order loss, you don't have to gg immediately. So is Protoss FFE greedy? Maybe, that's what the metagame is pointing at right now. But 6pool remains the very definition of cheese and hope-based play. It's just sad to see it being that effective. It's not like it's a reactive all in, you just do that hoping to get a free win or at least advantage.
And I find it kind of funny that you draw the line at platinium. Basically 50% players are lower than that and 50% equal or higher. Statistically I might very well belong to the top half, right? But otherwise I agree with you, no need to argue any longer, 6pool isn't that strong of a cheese and there is much worse that can happen to you ingame indeed 
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well thats what it is, we zergs dont have to play reactive for once when we 6pool
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first of all, im not really sure if 6pool is overpowered because neither i do it nor i face it more than once a week but i dont think it is from the little experience i have. second : protoss is the race with the most powerfull all-ins and timing attacks and i rage alot getting 5 or 6gated oder 3gate stargate all-in'ed^^
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I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
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On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
Yes it would. OP, 6-pool is not overpowered there are plenty of good ways to deal with it that don't even require scouting it first.
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Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered?
^This
I thought the same thing about cannonrushes a while ago. i thought that is way to overpowered on certain maps. But fact is it isnt overpowered. I just played greedy FE against Toss. So when I stopped suddenly I didnt get cannonrushed anymore. That same thing goes with 6 pool ... its just a common counter to the metagame ... either u risk being greedy and get a economical advantage and might die to an early pool or you play a different not as greedy opening.
But it doesnt make Cannonrush or Early Pool op - you just have the choice to take the risk for a better eco.
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I'm zerg and i double expand at start against protos. Can u help me deal with fast 2 gate zealot press with my build?
Thats pretty much what u are trying to do in this topic.
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United States7166 Posts
On September 28 2011 16:15 Lobber wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 16:10 Plexa wrote:
If you are FE'ing and you don't scout them in the first position just plant a forge at 13 just in case. The difference between forfe fe and fe forge is pretty minimal and it doesn't hurt to be safe. This is a long winded way of saying you yourself are taking a gamble by ruling out 6-10 pool by zerg when skipping forge for a faster nexus. On Shakuras, 13 forge is auto loss to a perfect 6 pool if you try to wall off, 12 forge you can wall it, if 13 forge you need to pylon the mineral line+cannon to survive.
13 forge should be totally fine on shakuras. Are you doing the 2gate + forge wall? Scout on 9, 13 forge, 13 gate, 13 cannon, 13 gate. you dont need to pull any probes or cancel any buildings, except if you want to cancel the 2nd gate for a core before the gate finishes. the cannon should finish just at about the same time the lings arrive. Also I think you can squeeze a 14th probe there somewhere as well.
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On September 28 2011 23:44 jirpy wrote:
I agree that I don't believe the 6 pool is overpowered but I'm just curious to hear to a zerg player's perspective on what if blizzard made so it they had to build an overlord first? like toss has to build a pylon before gateway and terran a depot before rax. And yes obviously it would change a bunch of timings, but would it fundamentally destroy zerg?
It would be fine imo. The only times I lay a pool down before ovie is when I'm 6/7/8 pooling. The only build it would really mess with is the 11pool 18hatch build, but I'm sure we would adapt.
It would also make ZvZ much less frustrating.
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