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PvZ How to beat a 6 pool?
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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xlava
United States676 Posts
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:15 NotSorry wrote: use the search feature a dozen other threads on this already I've tried several searches but nothing helpful comes up. What should I search for? Thanks. | ||
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Garth
United States353 Posts
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
against zerg i always build an early gate at around 12 not 13! then get the cybernetics and immediately, asap, get the first zealot! when the zerglings arrive you should have your wall completed except for the little gap and your zealot will take 5 more seconds, during that time you need to either warp in a pylon for the little gap or simply block it with 1-2 probes. in case you choose the pylon cancel it when the zealot is done but beware of the zerglings that will try to slip trough. if you place your buildings properly, for example xelnaga caverns i trained that with a master zerg friend, you can wall off perfectly after some train (with 2 extra pylons), you can use the same placement on nearly every map that has a small choke. trust me, you don't need the forge, it will just give the zerg an advantage and after a 6pool he should be brought to a disadvantage! ONLY USE FORGE IF YOU EXPAND! counter with 3gate blink or late 4gate whatever you like more. btw: you can stop probe production if you can't afford more units in the beginning since the zerg hasn't got a lot (maybe 10 to 15)! after that constantly warp in more. if you can cripple him or end it, do it. if not, proceed with a proper game. be careful for roaches but with blink you should get em down soon. I'm gold player since 6 games ago, before that i was in silver. the only 6pools that have ever worked against me (i play for around 2 months) were one today (due to my own mistake) and one a couple of weeks ago, also my mistake by misplacing the probe. If even I'm able to manage this you should have no problems at all! | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
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iBRomano
Canada23 Posts
I think everyone knows about the HuK vs. Moon final in Dreamhack 2011 and from that, we could see that HuK frantically walled behind his previous wall. You can always cancel that if you feel you're safe, or you just went too overboard with walling off. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos I'm curious though why more people don't do this. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:54 akalarry wrote: because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago. I understand that, but you would need to scout in time for that (at 9, and if it's a big map and you scout him in the last spawn position, it may be too late). With the strategy I described, if you scout later (like at 12 or 13), and even if you don't scout the 6 pool, you will be fine. | ||
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Ashes
United States362 Posts
EDIT: if its a big map..six pool shud normally fail! | ||
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iBRomano
Canada23 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). I completely agree. A forge + a cannon is a waste of minerals and instead of being ahead once you hold it off, you may actually be behind. One of the best ways is just to place buildings hugging the nexus, then stacking probes for some amazing burst damage. From the Protoss' point of view, they think they're really ahead by killing those lings, but then they lose the game later on and they question why. | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I understand that, but you would need to scout in time for that (at 9, and if it's a big map and you scout him in the last spawn position, it may be too late). With the strategy I described, if you scout later (like at 12 or 13), and even if you don't scout the 6 pool, you will be fine. always scout the zerg at 9 and place your warpgate at 12. that way you shouldn't have problems. also if he just did hatch first im certain you would be able to punish that  if you just hug your mineralline zerglings are probably going to attack the other buildings. that can be quite annoying and if you don't kill them off you will be swarmed. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:35 memcpy wrote: I 6 pool a lot and this is one of the best defenses I've seen someone do. I think every protoss player who struggles with 6 pool should watch this. MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all. Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool: - I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool. - I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously). - I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games. How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core opener This advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself. - 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core. - When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8. - The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need. - When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement. - When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes. - Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement. This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately. tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
walling with a pylon is NOT terrible advice. your reasoning for it is not that valid i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chronoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes. | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. usually, there ain't much space to "dance around", at least not with 8 probes. walling with a pylon is NOT terrible advice. your reasoning for it is not that valid waste of 100 minerals, also you must stop probe production and as mentioned before.. YOU DON'T NEED TO WALLOFF completely! why would you want to waste a ton of minerals? if the zerglings break down one building and trust me if theres enough of them they will massacre your three zealots | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 24 2011 14:11 akalarry wrote: what's wrong with walling? that replay is a perfect example of one way you can do it successfully... i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chornoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes. a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings). 2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals. | ||
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