On August 24 2011 14:11 akalarry wrote: what's wrong with walling? that replay is a perfect example of one way you can do it successfully...
i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chornoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes.
a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings).
2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals.
he canceled his gateway, it only costs 75 minerals. and what's 75 minerals when you can hold off a 6 pool, you pretty much automatically win. you're already up 14-15 harvesters to 6-7. you're making too big a deal of not walling.
also since he walled off, he got about an extra 35 seconds of mining time. he pulled 7 probes. if he danced with those 7 probes 35 seconds earlier, then that's about 120 minerals he lost. instead he lost only 75 from canceling that gateway, so he would have made 35 more minerals at the end. and he was arguably safer as well.
cliffs: you lose 75 minerals from canceling gateway, but you gain 120 minerals from having your probes come off the line 35 seconds later.
Right now on XNC and most maps I open 7-pool every game vs Protoss. I do the Catz build where I build to 9 drones after pool and double-extractor trick to get the 6 lings. After the lings I get an ovie, queen and drones. So it's just 6 lings.
This usually does a lot of damage if the protoss overreacts and goes forge first. It fails miserably if they just get a 12 gate then core, chronoboost out a zealot and defend with that and a few probes. The worst part of that is that they just proceed undelayed with their build, while I clearly delayed a lot of stuff to attack that early.
Actually, let me ask a question: with the build I'm doing, if the protoss defends as mentionned and I do 0 damage, am I so far behind that I can't hope to hold a 4-gate follow-up? I just died to that today but my macro was bad, so I don't know.
It depends on the map and spawning positions, but on a map like Xel'Naga, I find the best defense is the 2 gate variant where you wall off completely with a pylon and rally your zealots behind the wall.
If the zerg targets the pylon trying to get in right away, pull a handful of probes along with your zealot to keep the zerglings at the small choke. Or if the zerg only targets the gateways, wait as long as possible and destroy your own pylon with the 2 zealots you should have by this point and again in the small area 2 zealots will be able to destroy all the lings quite easily.
I find this response is the best because you won't lose much mining time at all, which means that you can generally get your gas and core without too much delay.
If you let the zerglings into your base, you risk losing a lot of mining time on your probes which is more harmful than losing a pylon.
This has become standard in my play ever since the second week of playing:
You build your first gateway on the part of your walloff where the zealot needs to stand, NOT against the corner. The only adjustment you need to make is put the gateway tight against the edge of the ramp, and then move it one block away for the zealot. The second 3x3 building, be it an emergency 2nd gate or a cyber, fits nice and snug between your first gateway and the ramp, creating the traditional wall. This way, your zealot comes out RIGHT where he needs to be. Everyone elses advice about probe / pylon blocking is true, but this helps you pull off the defense much easier.
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread.
The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp
This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots
And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks
WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos
I'm curious though why more people don't do this.
And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really.
because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago.
I understand that, but you would need to scout in time for that (at 9, and if it's a big map and you scout him in the last spawn position, it may be too late). With the strategy I described, if you scout later (like at 12 or 13), and even if you don't scout the 6 pool, you will be fine.
always scout the zerg at 9 and place your warpgate at 12. that way you shouldn't have problems. also if he just did hatch first im certain you would be able to punish that
if you just hug your mineralline zerglings are probably going to attack the other buildings. that can be quite annoying and if you don't kill them off you will be swarmed.
But what if you scout him in the last position and it's too late?
On August 24 2011 14:47 susySquark wrote: This has become standard in my play ever since the second week of playing:
You build your first gateway on the part of your walloff where the zealot needs to stand, NOT against the corner. The only adjustment you need to make is put the gateway tight against the edge of the ramp, and then move it one block away for the zealot. The second 3x3 building, be it an emergency 2nd gate or a cyber, fits nice and snug between your first gateway and the ramp, creating the traditional wall. This way, your zealot comes out RIGHT where he needs to be. Everyone elses advice about probe / pylon blocking is true, but this helps you pull off the defense much easier.
The problem with this is you need to scout at 9, and if it's a big map and/or you scout him in the last position, it will be too late.
On August 24 2011 14:11 akalarry wrote: what's wrong with walling? that replay is a perfect example of one way you can do it successfully...
i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chornoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes.
a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings).
2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals.
Totally agree, and nice mini-guide on defending the 6 pool (you should probably actually make a [G] thread haha, it is well organized information already).
Also, remember that even though you lose mining time pulling probes off, the difference between cutting probes to build more buildings at your wall vs delaying mining time but having a few more probes in the first few minutes is EXTREMELY huge.
if u were getting gas cancel it. if already made then don't mine from it. (important)
Build wall with gateway, forge and pylon. Chronoboost zealot to kill some of the zerglings and buy time for cannons because your forge isn't quite done yet this time.(make sure zealot pops outside of your base) .
Transition:
get gas and cyber while chronoboosting 2 or 3 zealots because the zerg most likely will get hatchery. U won't kill zerg with these zealots but it will force them to make lings instead of drones.
After that do whatever you like. Stargate is good also 4 gate is good if u feel that u forced enough lings from the zerg.
I can't tell if the people saying "don't wall" are serious. You'd think people like Huk, NaNiwa, MC, or pretty much 99.9% of pro protoss players would've figured out whether or not to wall in this matchup.
watch this replay and then watch the idra vs mc game!
I've been facing a lot of 6 pools lately (almost as many as in early season I) and this defense is the one response that will hold off the rush and give u aggressive options to follow up while not relying on almost flawless micro - let's be honest, until high masters, we usually don t have really good micro) - plz keep in mind that all this is only true if u r not intending to fastexpand though - You ask how so? Well, hear me out:
So u go for a full wall-off with a forge up ur ramp. This means that the zerg can just happily get his early queen for injects and then drone up, expand and simply play a normal game usually beeing ahead of you economic wise, coz u can't really put on pressure for quite some time and u need to kill ur wall-in before moving down ur ramp (i.e. wasting minerals)
If you go for a one gate core build with a building pylon as temporary wall off - as suggested in this thread - the zerg will simply kill ur gate! and then u r left with 2 zealots max and no production with lings streaming in,slowly grinding u down. if a 6/7 pooling zerg goes immediately for ur gate it will go down and with 0 gates, it'll be GG.
And what about walling in at ur nexus? This one is tough. Yes it works, but you have to be on top of everything, have good micro and perfect decision making. White-Ra obviously can pull that off with ease, I, however, doubt that is true for most of the players reading this thread looking for help against 6 pools. Just yesterday there was a game in the IPL S3 qualifiers between col.catz and a toss who did this White-Ra opening vs catz' 7 pool. He struggled hard to hold on, showed some amazing micro and still was left behind seriously hurt after catz decided to end the aggression. I guess it all depends on how good u think u r and how good u r in reality
It's amazing how there are always TONS of people disagreeing about how to defend this. I 8 pool almost 100% of the time on shakuras and xelnaga and make only 8 lings. It's almost always worth it, when I don't mess up my micro. Mid masters here, so my micro isn't good but it doesn't suck either.
I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead).
The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead.
As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit.
TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead.
Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital).
If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly.
The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure.
On August 24 2011 21:46 Sbrubbles wrote: It's amazing how there are always TONS of people disagreeing about how to defend this. I 8 pool almost 100% of the time on shakuras and xelnaga and make only 8 lings. It's almost always worth it, when I don't mess up my micro. Mid masters here, so my micro isn't good but it doesn't suck either.
I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead).
The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead.
As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit.
TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead.
The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player.
Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end.
No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them.
In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed.
Covers the basics. Really once you understand the basics you can tailor the actual drop-at-what-supply to what you see fit.
It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137
In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy.
This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp.
This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool.
There are other ways of dealing with 6pool that are less cost-effective, potentially higher risk AND rely on you scouting your opponent to succeed. If you, the studious protoss player, want to rely on scouting to stop a 6pool, you will continue to lose some games against it. If instead you rely on some very straightforward micro (click toward lings, click away if they try to attack you, repeat for 20-30 seconds if necessary), you will never lose to another 6pool on ladder or in any tournament.
tl;dr - as I and a few other players have pointed out already, probe dancing is the most efficient way to deal with 6pool because it doesn't rely on you scouting your opponent first and requires minimal APM and standard build order deviation.
Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital).
If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly.
The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure.
On August 24 2011 21:46 Sbrubbles wrote: It's amazing how there are always TONS of people disagreeing about how to defend this. I 8 pool almost 100% of the time on shakuras and xelnaga and make only 8 lings. It's almost always worth it, when I don't mess up my micro. Mid masters here, so my micro isn't good but it doesn't suck either.
I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead).
The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead.
As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit.
TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead.
The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player.
Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end.
No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them.
In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed.
Covers the basics. Really once you understand the basics you can tailor the actual drop-at-what-supply to what you see fit.
It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137
In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy.
This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp.
This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool.
I really feel that we need to note one thing:
On large last scout = death maps its best to build close. On smaller maps where you can scout in time the 2 gate at ramp is good. Especially because you can send the zealots to zergs base on these maps in particular so 2 gating is very good in this situation.
Larger maps = build close Smaller maps = build at ramp and 2 gate defend if scouting is possible in time.
When you see a six pool finish wall off with forge, chrono out your zealot and if needed build a pylon to finish the wall if zealot won't get out in time. When forge finishes start building a cannon more if need but one should do just fine.
Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital).
If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly.
The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure.
On August 24 2011 21:46 Sbrubbles wrote: It's amazing how there are always TONS of people disagreeing about how to defend this. I 8 pool almost 100% of the time on shakuras and xelnaga and make only 8 lings. It's almost always worth it, when I don't mess up my micro. Mid masters here, so my micro isn't good but it doesn't suck either.
I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead).
The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead.
As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit.
TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead.
The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player.
Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end.
No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them.
In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed.
Covers the basics. Really once you understand the basics you can tailor the actual drop-at-what-supply to what you see fit.
It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137
In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy.
This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp.
This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool.
There are other ways of dealing with 6pool that are less cost-effective, potentially higher risk AND rely on you scouting your opponent to succeed. If you, the studious protoss player, want to rely on scouting to stop a 6pool, you will continue to lose some games against it. If instead you rely on some very straightforward micro (click toward lings, click away if they try to attack you, repeat for 20-30 seconds if necessary), you will never lose to another 6pool on ladder or in any tournament.
tl;dr - as I and a few other players have pointed out already, probe dancing is the most efficient way to deal with 6pool because it doesn't rely on you scouting your opponent first and requires minimal APM and standard build order deviation.
The 8 pool arives before the chronoed zealot comes out from a 12 gate. Also, why wouldn't I be able to consistently reinforce? How would you know I'm not going all-in (until its too late)?
As for scouting, on Tal'Darim I actually double scout. I 9 Scout to one base, then build a forge on 13 blind + send that to scout. This way I scout the last two bases at the same time. You can do this on any 4 player map to ensure you scout within 1-2 tries.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QAgXb.jpg)
