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PvZ How to beat a 6 pool? - Page 3

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MeanMike
Profile Joined July 2011
15 Posts
August 24 2011 19:35 GMT
#41
master p here, you dont need a second gate, just get your cyber out chrono a zealot and do the 8 probe thing the other master z said. 6 pool should be an easy win if you follow his steps
QTIP.
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States2113 Posts
August 24 2011 19:42 GMT
#42
On August 24 2011 13:54 akalarry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread.

The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp

This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots

And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks

WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos

I'm curious though why more people don't do this.


And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really.


because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago.


Timings are wrong here. You will not have 3 zealots out. You cannot cancel your pylon. You need to let the pylon complete, and take your initial zealot and a few probes and destroy the pylon from the inside. You push out and kill the lings with 1 Zealot 4-5 probes. (Otherwise one of your gateways will die).
"Trash Micro but Win. Its Marin." - Min Chul
TheResidentEvil
Profile Joined September 2010
United States991 Posts
August 24 2011 19:57 GMT
#43
One thing you can do is if you see 6 pool you can start the zealot first and then start the core. The core delays the zealot a little so starting the z delays the core a little bit but as long as its started you are ok.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-24 21:26:08
August 24 2011 21:24 GMT
#44
It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137

In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy.

This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp.

This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool.


Which is exactly why I said the basics. Or, rather, the basics of one approach (small 2player map, it's scouted). You make a compelling case for probe dancing 8-10 until victory. Hooray, glad you offer that. I say if you're 9 scouting and see it (1st pos and 2nd) the Gateway - Forge - Cannon walloff is at least equal (zealots fit out after dpsing cannon made between gateway and forge, see thread.

If you don't scout it, probe dance away. Good advice.

EDIT: Watched all GSL 1 matches live in the dead of night =).
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
ShatterZer0
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1843 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-24 21:31:46
August 24 2011 21:30 GMT
#45
Ummm... this might sound crazy... but don't wall off with your first gateway and pylon, thinkt he way whitera does, make them hug your nexus, do a 12 gate instead of a 13, and scout after gate. The reason this is, in my opinion, a better way to fight the 6 pool is that it lets you protect your buildings with probes and lets you quick meld them back into minerals to prevent significant losses. Doing this will probably lose you your first 10 ish games against practice 6 pool, but once you learn to probe micro correctly, the zerg will never be able to kill your buildings, never kill more than 4 probes, and -most important of all- never your first Zealot.

Cheers!

(whitera blocks the ramp with the second and third gates)
A time to live.
ThatGuy89
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1968 Posts
August 24 2011 21:45 GMT
#46
the replay that someone posted was an awful defence. One of the main things to remember, is not to put everything into defending it. Remember, even if you defend it youre probbaly gonna end up facing either a ling all in, or roach all in. Dont forget to get gas and core and more gates. The toss in that replay had 1 gate, no gas, no core. All that zerg had to do was back off, even though he'd mde like 12 lings, and he probably would have still won.
RTudoRR
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Romania216 Posts
August 24 2011 21:48 GMT
#47
On August 24 2011 13:18 xlava wrote:
After you scout it wall off with a forge + gateway combination. Build a pylon to seal the hole and a cannon behind it. You will probably have to build other things to seal up hole the lings make but you cannot: I repeat cannot hold with just zealots, because the lings will kill the pylon before you get anything out.



keep the bad advice to yourself only please.


U either 2gate and chrono zealots or if you;re doing FFE u block with 1gate+pylon while putting a cannon in a safe place
ThatGuy89
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom1968 Posts
August 24 2011 22:00 GMT
#48
yea you never wanna throw down a forge after you scout it to defend. The 300 used for forge and one cannon means that the zerg can easily come out ahead if he just goes home, gets a queen and plays standard from there
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
August 24 2011 22:04 GMT
#49
See hongun vs july, it was on yesterday. If FFE build a cannon in your mineral line and you have a huge advantage. Keep watching if you want to know how zerg can still win

http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66054
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
Corsica
Profile Joined February 2011
Ukraine1854 Posts
August 27 2011 12:16 GMT
#50
I just do it ez mode. When i see pool, I immideatly throw a forge to create full wallin, chrono zealot out on the other side but makesure cannon comes first. Obviously cut all probe production. If zerg will braeak gate or forge just keep recreating a wall
Sanguinarius
Profile Joined January 2010
United States3427 Posts
August 27 2011 12:55 GMT
#51
You will need a forge to defend a 6 pool. Without the cannon, the lings will eventually get in and kill you. Zelots will not be able to hold for long enough.
Your strength is just an accident arising from the weakness of others -Heart of Darkness
itstheTB
Profile Joined August 2011
61 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-27 13:29:27
August 27 2011 13:21 GMT
#52
Im pretty sure why pro P players do forge-expand is a win win situation vs Zerg.
a) if the Zerg 6-pools you, you'll scout it in time and build pylon+cannon at base. Yes, you'll loose 1 pylon 1 forge at expand but remember that the Zerg hasn't build enough drones so he is still behind in economy. The cannon will defend the zerglings pretty well at your main.
b) if the Zerg doesnt 6-pool you, congratulations, you just successfully fast expanded and got a good economic start.

so forge is the way, wether you do it at expansion or in base
Markwerf
Profile Joined March 2010
Netherlands3728 Posts
August 27 2011 13:48 GMT
#53
If you are FFEing then you can make a pylon and cannon in your mineral line in response to seeing a 6 pool. It's important here you know it's a 6 pool though as it's a lousy response against a 8 or 9 pool to do this. If the pool is a bit later you should be able to wall the front with a cannon. Note that on some maps (shakuras for example) you can actually just wall the front in time with forge and 2 gates with a cannon just behind it. Just make sure to stop probes for a little while when doing so.

If you started off gate first then you simply want to wall your front and chrono zealots asap, usually you'll have to stop probes at 16 to make sure you can do this right away. Walling off with another gate (or cyber if you're in time) and then a pylon is usually a good thing. Sometimes the zerg will go back to droning and just try to kill all your walling buildings at the same time, in that case you will need to start killing one of your own buildings and just break out yourself. If you started gate first adding a forge is not good, it's not neccesary and won't actually do much if they get to break past the wall. If they revert to droning a forge + cannon on the high ground won't realy help you to expand either.

Either way you should always be able to counter a 6 pool quite well as long as you get to scout it in time (around the 15 probe mark). On a large 4p map this usually means you have 2/3rd chance to scout it in time if you 9 scout. I usually just take the risk. You can ofcourse send out a second scout probe if you didnt find the zerg in the first spot but since 6 pool is so rare i don't think it's generally worth it (unless your opponent is called July perhaps).
Quochobao
Profile Joined October 2010
United States350 Posts
August 27 2011 14:21 GMT
#54
I am so surprised that 6 pool in PvZ still proves to be such a headache after so many discussions. Perhaps someone needs to make a definitive guide on this.

It's pretty ludicrous how much trouble we're going through for such a simple minded build.
Best or nothing.
Ada
Profile Joined October 2004
Germany150 Posts
August 27 2011 14:42 GMT
#55
I think it still is a problem because it is pretty rare, so most players just lack some exercise in reading the scouting information (6-7-8 pool?) and reacting properly.
LuckedOut
Profile Joined December 2010
77 Posts
August 27 2011 14:52 GMT
#56
is there not a million other threads with this info already?
Asmodeusz
Profile Joined August 2011
193 Posts
August 27 2011 14:57 GMT
#57
I recently played against random on Xel'naga Caverns and didn't wall, scouted at 9, gate at 13, when i noticed his early pool i cancelled the gateway, build a forge and 2 cannons right away. His lings arrived a little before cannons were finished so i microed my probes around and won the game easly (he fallowed with roaches on one base, which i easly defended with 2 more cannons and firsts stalkers that came out) and won the game.

Since then i understand why WhiteRa doesn't wall with first buildings. Now i wish for the zergs to 6 pool me on maps like this
quaffle
Profile Joined December 2010
United States249 Posts
August 27 2011 15:03 GMT
#58
I like the second gate approach if I scout it before my cyber timing. Once I hold, just send units to his base, micro well, and youll win. Otherwise, I do the whole chrono zelot and ~8 probes.
Your success is only measured by the strength of your competitors.
BlindSC2
Profile Joined January 2011
United Kingdom435 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-27 15:43:12
August 27 2011 15:41 GMT
#59
A lot of people would call this risky and what-not, so I'll put it in spoilers in case you don't wanna hear it. There have been some good posts already on beating a 6 pool anyways

Its essentially talking about placing buildings back towards the nexus instead of walling

EDIT: And it turned out to be very long so it's good it's in spoilers anyway

+ Show Spoiler +
I personally do what used to be a WhiteRa-esque building placement, with my first pylon/gateway at the nexus/behind the mineral line, and then my second pylon/cyber core at the ramp, finishing with my second gate whenever necessary

I have never lost to a <11 pool with this without a clear micro/scouting error on my part. I scout after gateway (unless FFE-ing on Taldarim, Shakuras or Antigua). Part of what make this so great is that when people see that there is no wall, they often just make all zerglings and never drone up thinking that I mistakenly thought they were Terran or something. Once they are held off and have 6-7-8-9-whatever drones left, easy win.

You place your first pylon nestled in a choke formed by you minerals, your gas or wherever so that as few lings would be able to hit it as possible. An example of this would be on xelnaga, spawning at the north, placing the pylon between your eastwards gas and the edge of the base. You then place the gateway touching the pylon just south of it, so only one face of the pylon is accessible by lings (and they have to walk all the way around the mineral line to get to it)

You then place your second pylon/cyber at the ramp as usual. Depending on when you scout it will dictate what happens next.

I'll use Typhon peaks as an example, since that is 4 player with reasonable rush distances.

You scout first (after gateway), you'll see it before you place your second pylon, however if you were planning to, you would have already spent your 3rd chronoboost on the nexus. Put the pylon back to support your gateway, in a spot that forces a choke for your zealot if possible. Place cyber core similarly as well. If you see more than 6 lings, and feel like you must, pull off gas either once you have 100 gas or just leave 1 probe on. This is so that you can immediately start warp gate and a stalker once you feel safe. Just keep the zealot in your mineral line, if the lings try to come in to fight, use the zealot + 3-4 closest probes to fend them off, mineral walking probes which are being hit. Once you are safe (for me this is usually with 2 zealots+a stalker), you can make your 3rd/4th pylon at the ramp ready to wall normally with gates 2/3.

Lets say you scout him at the second position, your second pylon will just be finishing up or may be completely finished (depending on 15/16 pylon, and specifics to your scouting, you should always pull back your scouting probe the second you see no creep, don't let it walk all the way into the base and back out, that wastes precious seconds). If it hasn't finished, cancel it and replace it back at the gateway as before. You should cancel the probe in production and start a zealot, taking you to 18/18.

If the pylon has finished, just go to 19/26 and pull 5-6 probes to ward the zerglings off the pylon until zealots come out, start cyber core back towards nexus after 1-2 zealots as before. If for some reason the pylon is going to go down, say you didn't react in time or he splits his lings (and is producing >6), replace it back at the nexus. Use the minerals pooled to start your WG and a preliminary 3rd pylon. Keep ~175 for when the pylon finishes so you can start probes production and a zealot/stalker again (situational) once the pylon finishes

Say you scout him last, your cyber core will have been started. This one relies entirely on whether he is producing >6 lings or not. Keep your scouting probe near his hatchery, and check what comes out of the larvae. If its only 6 lings, keep the cyber core there, you will have to pull 6-7 probes along with your soon to finish zealot and ward the lings off. Once your second zealot finishes, you can send the probes back to mine. He will run around with lings and make a dart for a probe in the mineral line every now and then, just pull the 2-3 outer probes into the middle of the mineral line and you'll be fine until the stalker comes out.

Say he makes >6 lings (and you scout him last), you'll have to cancel the cyber core, replace it back towards the nexus, and likely a preliminary 3rd pylon there as well, since your second will very likely fall. You may want a second gate (definitely if you get supply capped), but otherwise do the same as before, keep your zealots in the mineral line.

One game a situation came about that he produced something like ~16 lings with ~10 left and kept me contained with my 2 zealots and a stalker in my mineral line. He was being very cautious to not follow my stalker back into the mineral line and doing an all round good job, he was starting to drone up again and eventually started a hatch. I was content sitting in my mineral line, I had gateways coming up around my mineral line, with WG almost done. I simply 4gated him with a proxxy pylon set up by my scouting probe, making 4 zealots at a time.

*******************

This building placement taxes your micro and decision making far more than normal responses will, but I definitely believe it is better, largely because you can often make them fully commit to all lings and at the point unless you have a major cock up you win with a late 4gate.

If he does say a 14 gas/pool, or simliar, you can play as normal, just getting up your second gateway earlier than usual if he pokes with >4 lings

If he goes hatch first, I'm toying around with not walling in at the top of the ramp at all, just placing gates 2 and 3 on the low ground forming a wall for my expo. No wall makes it far easier if you're caught off guard by drops/nydus/mutas and don't have something like blink yet, because units can come back into your base far more quickly than if they are forced back single file
Wise men speak because they have something to say, fools; because they have to say something - Plato
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
August 27 2011 16:58 GMT
#60
On August 27 2011 23:57 Asmodeusz wrote:
I recently played against random on Xel'naga Caverns and didn't wall, scouted at 9, gate at 13, when i noticed his early pool i cancelled the gateway, build a forge and 2 cannons right away. His lings arrived a little before cannons were finished so i microed my probes around and won the game easly (he fallowed with roaches on one base, which i easly defended with 2 more cannons and firsts stalkers that came out) and won the game.

Since then i understand why WhiteRa doesn't wall with first buildings. Now i wish for the zergs to 6 pool me on maps like this


Why would he try to roach rush you on one base when he saw you made 2 cannons T_T
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
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