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The game should have ended some minutes after the 6 pool. That the game went on long enough to see ultras means your 6 pool defense was awful... and I say this constructively because you're looking at this game from the wrong perspective. It's not "how to I hold off this followup" it's "why was my 6 pool defense so bad?"
I've copied for you the text of a post I made a while ago detailing perfect 6 pool defense as protoss, and it DOES NOT RELY ON SCOUTING. You need to remove that part of the counter from your brain and your decision-making right now.
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On August 24 2011 14:08 michaelhasanalias wrote:There have been several threads on this subject already just in the last month, so try to search as a few other people have already told you. "6pool" or "6 pool" is all you need to search for. This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all. Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool:
- I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool. - I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously). - I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games. How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core openerThis advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself. - 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core. - When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8. - The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need. - When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement. - When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes. - Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement. This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately. tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging.
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What are people's opinions on the best followup after the common situation of defending a 6 pool after a FFE, where you mostly just lose the pylon and forge on the low ground? You'll be ahead on probes but behind on tech.
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On September 26 2011 03:37 Skyro wrote:
What are people's opinions on the best followup after the common situation of defending a 6 pool after a FFE, where you mostly just lose the pylon and forge on the low ground? You'll be ahead on probes but behind on tech.
i don't think that's a very common situation at all.
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I've always found that corner-walling with a Gateway and a Forge and filling the gap with a Cannon tends to work rather well. It offers a pretty much perfect defense, and it's delusional to think that the Zerg is ahead if you spend 300 minerals (they've already spent 150 for the Zerglings, now how much is lost in mining time?). The Cannon can also just be killed at any point in time. Your scouting Probe ought to still be alive unless you're absolutely terrible, and it's easy to hide a proxy Pylon and then scout them to see their follow-up. If they go for economy, you put on pre-WG pressure. If they go for some kind of bust, get a Sentry or two and win. Either way, transition into 4gate works pretty well. The Forge also allows for +1 timings, if you feel like it, as well as a safe expansion.
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as a zerg player that uses fast pool strategies vs protoss on ffe-popular maps, don't cut corners and you should be able to easily hold off any kind of early ling aggression, even if you don't ffe make standard walls and don't skip zealots, i've lol'd at so many people that skip the first zealot on gate/gas opening and lose because of it, whether i kill the pylon and slow tech way down or kill enough probes to outright win. also a big thing i notice is that protoss assume that you 6 pool them if you send lings before the 5 minute mark, be aware that the 11 overpool opening can put on ling pressure almost as fast but secures an expansion very quickly as well. frequently zergs won't be able to handle a 4 gate all zealot push after doing such an opening, the only way its possibly while maintaining a macro advantage is with several queens/spine crawlers. also, if you scout a fast pool before the lings pop, that should give you more than enough time to wall off and be safe, cut probes and wall off instead of tryin to chrono out probes and wall-in in time, that seems to cause alot of ppl to lose to ling pressure. diamond zerg btw
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wall, kill 1 gate yourself when 2 zealots are out (or cancel your 2nd gate if still possible) and attack the lings with zealots probes. ez
if you start forge expo, pylon and cannon in your mineral line. they lings will be there before the cannon is complete, so min trick the probes around
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The smart thing about defend 6 pools is don't stop making probes. Use probe to defend and chronoboost zealot, but also make probes. Don't pull all of the probes to kill lings, try to do minerals mining trick
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On September 26 2011 04:01 Acritter wrote:
I've always found that corner-walling with a Gateway and a Forge and filling the gap with a Cannon tends to work rather well. It offers a pretty much perfect defense, and it's delusional to think that the Zerg is ahead if you spend 300 minerals (they've already spent 150 for the Zerglings, now how much is lost in mining time?). The Cannon can also just be killed at any point in time. Your scouting Probe ought to still be alive unless you're absolutely terrible, and it's easy to hide a proxy Pylon and then scout them to see their follow-up. If they go for economy, you put on pre-WG pressure. If they go for some kind of bust, get a Sentry or two and win. Either way, transition into 4gate works pretty well. The Forge also allows for +1 timings, if you feel like it, as well as a safe expansion.
upgrade on the forge is a dead give away that its a +1 4 gate. I just skip zerglings altogether and go roaches. And I know your attack will hit at roughly 7:30 or later based on when your cyber finishes (i have overlord in your base until you have a stalker out)
the solution is to do 2x gates, build a pylon, pull some probes right as your zealot is coming out and cancel the pylon. Plug the gap with probes+zealot and chrono zealots. Go attack once you have 3 zealots if he only made 6 lings, or go attack with 5 if he made more than 6 lings. If he makes lings you have the econ advantage and equal army. If he makes drones your zealots can cancel his hatch or keep him on 1 base.
And after you can get gas and go dt or get some more gates for 4-5 gate allin.
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I have never been able to reliably win vs 6 pool T.T
Too bad there is too much misinformation and awful advice in this thread for me to tell which is the actual response. Not to mention there is a very mixed opinion even on the advice that seems legit, I have no idea wtf I am supposed to do.
I wish someone with a legit 100% winrate vs 6 pool would just post the be all end all in a thread separate to this one as a [G]uide.
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On September 26 2011 03:59 tuestresfat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2011 03:37 Skyro wrote:
What are people's opinions on the best followup after the common situation of defending a 6 pool after a FFE, where you mostly just lose the pylon and forge on the low ground? You'll be ahead on probes but behind on tech. i don't think that's a very common situation at all.
The proper response to 6-pool from a FFE opening if you can't wall-off your natural in time (either due to scouting it too late or the map layout) is to build a pylon and cannon in your mineral line, thus sacrificing your pylon and forge.
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Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool?
honestly to block a 6pool you don't even need to have a forge, just do a normal wall off and chronoboost out your first zealot make sure to addanother gateway or a cybercore to create a choke, and if you need time fill the choke with one or two probes until the zealot comes out, then just micro and kill the lings. if your gateway hasn't finished then just complete the wall off with pylons and more gateways if you need to, or micro your workers. Also you'll mostlikely have double the amount of probes then lings it shouldn't be that hard to deal with, without losing more than 3 probes at most.
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On September 26 2011 11:58 thePROtoss wrote:
Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool?
Are you saying diamonds should be able to deal with 6 pool easily? Cuz I can beat mid masters like 75% of the time with a 6 pool cuz they dont wall correctly or if they over-commit and i only make 6 lings.
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Code S players have problem with 6 pool, as it's become a standard opener in PvZ to get Z into an advantageous mid game. Sure you don't die to a 6 pool, but so far even Pros can't 100% defend it into an advantage. So it's a real threat.
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On September 26 2011 09:32 Geovu wrote:I have never been able to reliably win vs 6 pool T.T Too bad there is too much misinformation and awful advice in this thread for me to tell which is the actual response. Not to mention there is a very mixed opinion even on the advice that seems legit, I have no idea wtf I am supposed to do. I wish someone with a legit 100% winrate vs 6 pool would just post the be all end all in a thread separate to this one as a [G]uide.
Did you scroll up and read my post? Because every protoss player I've ever beaten and told that same information to has never lost to another 6 pool again.
There are other ways to reliably beat 6 pool from 1-gate core openings but they all require scouting and are (in my opinion) more difficult to execute than just probe dancing.
I thought about posting it as a guide but I didn't feel like it was warranted.
I can assure you that probe dancing and NOT WALLING OFF is definitively the most efficient and consistently reliable way to crush 6-pool each and every time.
(And if you FFE, do what someone else mentions which is sac the forge and pylon and just make one cannon in your mineral line. Almost never should you attempt to seal a wall at your natural because you will die most of the time a slow and painful death.)
I highly recommend finding someone to practice against 6 pool with, because probe dancing is extremely simple and easy to learn to master, requiring not more than a couple games at most.
On September 26 2011 13:33 PimpWilly wrote:
Code S players have problem with 6 pool, as it's become a standard opener in PvZ to get Z into an advantageous mid game. Sure you don't die to a 6 pool, but so far even Pros can't 100% defend it into an advantage. So it's a real threat.
I'm sorry, but this is poisonous thinking and misleading. You're right that it has become something of a viable option for zerg players to use, but it has a clear and definitive solution that doesn't require scouting, and has existed for a long time. It's viable because of thinking like yours, where protoss players believe they have to scout it in order to stop it, and so they chalk up losses as "coin-flippy" when its simply poor reaction that loses the game.
There aren't many instances of 6 pool being used in ZvP in code S, but one of the "classic" ones is fruitdealer v inca on kulas ravine from one of the first gsl open seasons, and that was single-handedly one of the most awful cases of 6-pool defense in the world.
Another was hongun's defense against july last season on terminus, and hongun responded almost as pitifully, although he was far ahead after the initial engagement. The only reason he lost that game is because july is a master of deception and his followup caught hongun off guard.
On September 26 2011 11:58 thePROtoss wrote:
Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool?
honestly to block a 6pool you don't even need to have a forge, just do a normal wall off and chronoboost out your first zealot make sure to addanother gateway or a cybercore to create a choke, and if you need time fill the choke with one or two probes until the zealot comes out, then just micro and kill the lings. if your gateway hasn't finished then just complete the wall off with pylons and more gateways if you need to, or micro your workers. Also you'll mostlikely have double the amount of probes then lings it shouldn't be that hard to deal with, without losing more than 3 probes at most.
You would lose versus a good 6-pooler almost 100% of the time if you did this. When you seal a wall, it guarantees that your gateway and core will die simultaneously while your zealot spawns helplessly in the back. And when that gateway goes down it will be 14 zerglings to 1 zealot and 16-18 probes.
Posts like this are precisely why 6 pool works up and into grandmaster league on NA and EU ladders.
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16 nexus then micro your probes like a boss
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On September 26 2011 19:58 HuK wrote:
16 nexus then micro your probes like a boss
Ah yes, the Chuck Norris Gambit.
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Forge is the safest and easiest way to hold it off. Don't listen to all of the retards who are saying not to build one.
All you need to do when you scout a 6 pool is to immediately stop building probes, build a forge to complete your wall off, chrono out 1 zealot, and as soon as that forge drops, lay ONE cannon between your gateway and forge. Also, be sure to pull one probe to your wall so that you can completely wall off in the case that you zealot doesn't get out in time (which is 99% of the time depending on the map and when you scout it). A lot of the time you will be forces to cancel and re-warp in buildings if something goes wrong. The key, however, is just getting 1 cannon up.
Then you can proceed to play a standard game where you are ahead. I wouldn't suggest 4-gating as a follow up to this as you have already dumped into a forge and thus your warpgate timing is fucked. A +1 timing attack is really good, however.
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On September 26 2011 20:39 -Trippin- wrote:
Forge is the safest and easiest way to hold it off. Don't listen to all of the retards who are saying not to build one.
All you need to do when you scout a 6 pool is to immediately stop building probes, build a forge to complete your wall off, chrono out 1 zealot, and as soon as that forge drops, lay ONE cannon between your gateway and forge. Also, be sure to pull one probe to your wall so that you can completely wall off in the case that you zealot doesn't get out in time (which is 99% of the time depending on the map and when you scout it). A lot of the time you will be forces to cancel and re-warp in buildings if something goes wrong. The key, however, is just getting 1 cannon up.
Then you can proceed to play a standard game where you are ahead. I wouldn't suggest 4-gating as a follow up to this as you have already dumped into a forge and thus your warpgate timing is fucked. A +1 timing attack is really good, however.
Can you not read? Stop spreading misinformation.
On August 24 2011 14:08 michaelhasanalias wrote:
There have been several threads on this subject already just in the last month, so try to search as a few other people have already told you. "6pool" or "6 pool" is all you need to search for.
Show nested quote +
On August 24 2011 13:35 memcpy wrote:
I 6 pool a lot and this is one of the best defenses I've seen someone do. I think every protoss player who struggles with 6 pool should watch this.
MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple
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This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all.
Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool:
- I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool.
- I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously).
- I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games.
How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core opener
This advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself.
- 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core.
- When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8.
- The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need.
- When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement.
- When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes.
- Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement.
This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately.
tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging.
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On September 25 2011 20:22 michaelhasanalias wrote:
The game should have ended some minutes after the 6 pool. That the game went on long enough to see ultras means your 6 pool defense was awful... and I say this constructively because you're looking at this game from the wrong perspective. It's not "how to I hold off this followup" it's "why was my 6 pool defense so bad?"
I've copied for you the text of a post I made a while ago detailing perfect 6 pool defense as protoss, and it DOES NOT RELY ON SCOUTING. You need to remove that part of the counter from your brain and your decision-making right now.
Have a good replay of the defense? I've done forge cannon every time and I'm basically convinced I'm wrong.
One other question too, if the Zerg opts to ignore the pylon and aims for the mineral line, is it best to dance with all the probes until the zealot is finished? Or mineral stack a probe surround?
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On September 26 2011 21:23 Champ24 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2011 20:22 michaelhasanalias wrote:
The game should have ended some minutes after the 6 pool. That the game went on long enough to see ultras means your 6 pool defense was awful... and I say this constructively because you're looking at this game from the wrong perspective. It's not "how to I hold off this followup" it's "why was my 6 pool defense so bad?"
I've copied for you the text of a post I made a while ago detailing perfect 6 pool defense as protoss, and it DOES NOT RELY ON SCOUTING. You need to remove that part of the counter from your brain and your decision-making right now. Have a good replay of the defense? I've done forge cannon every time and I'm basically convinced I'm wrong. One other question too, if the Zerg opts to ignore the pylon and aims for the mineral line, is it best to dance with all the probes until the zealot is finished? Or mineral stack a probe surround?
The reason I haven't made that post into an actual guide is because I don't 6-pool all that much (I often do when I ladder against protoss, but I don't ladder all that much), and then I do 6-pool, protoss almost always responds poorly.
However, here's a great replay example for you to look at:
 vs  준몽님 vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png)
(It's worth noting that P 10-gates in this replay, which you don't need to do and I'd personally discourage. I have a replay somewhere of a 14-gate holding off 6pool with decent probe dancing. The point is that once the "cycle" of dancing has been initiated, you can do it ad infinitum until you have the necessary defenses (two zealots) to deal with the lings. If he doesn't reinforce, just one zealot is fine.)
He can't engage your probes directly because you'll have 15-18 versus his 6, so he has to buy time for his reinforcements (up to 14 lings by ~3:45). The only option zerg has is to target down that forward pylon if you don't wall. When you see people recommend to just use probes and surround lings, this is what they are referring to. It's because whoever 6-pooled them was bad enough to a-move into the probe line.
Always dance if you can, unless zerg is literally just a-moving into your line in which case you can surround. If your opponent is bad enough to go directly for your mineral line with only 6 lings, you can try to mineral walk if you think he's serious about engaging. Almost always he is just looking to pick at you, and this won't work. Mineral walk if you have to or dance if you have to, and try to buy time. When you mineral walk, your goal is just to pick off a stray ling here and there.
Another reason engaging probes in the mineral line is bad is because all those probes will cost-efficiently deal with those zerglings and leave you ahead if you can get a good surround. The safest thing to do though is just pull your probes to your zealot and continue to chrono your gateway while returning some of your probes to mine. If you do engage him and have a bad concave/surround, instead of losing 1-2 probes you may lose 8-10, and go from being very far ahead to tied up.
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EPT
