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PvZ How to beat a 6 pool?
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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xlava
United States676 Posts
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:15 NotSorry wrote: use the search feature a dozen other threads on this already I've tried several searches but nothing helpful comes up. What should I search for? Thanks. | ||
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Garth
United States353 Posts
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Jamage
United States15 Posts
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
against zerg i always build an early gate at around 12 not 13! then get the cybernetics and immediately, asap, get the first zealot! when the zerglings arrive you should have your wall completed except for the little gap and your zealot will take 5 more seconds, during that time you need to either warp in a pylon for the little gap or simply block it with 1-2 probes. in case you choose the pylon cancel it when the zealot is done but beware of the zerglings that will try to slip trough. if you place your buildings properly, for example xelnaga caverns i trained that with a master zerg friend, you can wall off perfectly after some train (with 2 extra pylons), you can use the same placement on nearly every map that has a small choke. trust me, you don't need the forge, it will just give the zerg an advantage and after a 6pool he should be brought to a disadvantage! ONLY USE FORGE IF YOU EXPAND! counter with 3gate blink or late 4gate whatever you like more. btw: you can stop probe production if you can't afford more units in the beginning since the zerg hasn't got a lot (maybe 10 to 15)! after that constantly warp in more. if you can cripple him or end it, do it. if not, proceed with a proper game. be careful for roaches but with blink you should get em down soon. I'm gold player since 6 games ago, before that i was in silver. the only 6pools that have ever worked against me (i play for around 2 months) were one today (due to my own mistake) and one a couple of weeks ago, also my mistake by misplacing the probe. If even I'm able to manage this you should have no problems at all! | ||
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memcpy
United States459 Posts
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iBRomano
Canada23 Posts
I think everyone knows about the HuK vs. Moon final in Dreamhack 2011 and from that, we could see that HuK frantically walled behind his previous wall. You can always cancel that if you feel you're safe, or you just went too overboard with walling off. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
The best way to do defend against 6 pool and also be better economically is just to build your pylon/gate hugging your nexus/mineral line, instead of at the ramp This way if he comes with a 6 pool, your 2nd pylon you make will guarantee ur gateway gets the first zealot out, and at that point you just need a little micro to stack probes and go back and forth with your zealots And if he doesn't 6 pool you, you can put your 2nd pylon and cyber/other2gates at your ramp later on; it will be there on time for any kind of speedling attacks WhiteRa mentions this on one of MrBitter's videos I'm curious though why more people don't do this. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:54 akalarry wrote: because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago. I understand that, but you would need to scout in time for that (at 9, and if it's a big map and you scout him in the last spawn position, it may be too late). With the strategy I described, if you scout later (like at 12 or 13), and even if you don't scout the 6 pool, you will be fine. | ||
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Ashes
United States362 Posts
EDIT: if its a big map..six pool shud normally fail! | ||
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iBRomano
Canada23 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). I completely agree. A forge + a cannon is a waste of minerals and instead of being ahead once you hold it off, you may actually be behind. One of the best ways is just to place buildings hugging the nexus, then stacking probes for some amazing burst damage. From the Protoss' point of view, they think they're really ahead by killing those lings, but then they lose the game later on and they question why. | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I understand that, but you would need to scout in time for that (at 9, and if it's a big map and you scout him in the last spawn position, it may be too late). With the strategy I described, if you scout later (like at 12 or 13), and even if you don't scout the 6 pool, you will be fine. always scout the zerg at 9 and place your warpgate at 12. that way you shouldn't have problems. also if he just did hatch first im certain you would be able to punish that  if you just hug your mineralline zerglings are probably going to attack the other buildings. that can be quite annoying and if you don't kill them off you will be swarmed. | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:35 memcpy wrote: I 6 pool a lot and this is one of the best defenses I've seen someone do. I think every protoss player who struggles with 6 pool should watch this. MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all. Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool: - I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool. - I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously). - I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games. How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core opener This advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself. - 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core. - When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8. - The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need. - When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement. - When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes. - Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement. This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately. tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
walling with a pylon is NOT terrible advice. your reasoning for it is not that valid i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chronoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes. | ||
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Ju!cy
Austria82 Posts
tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. usually, there ain't much space to "dance around", at least not with 8 probes. walling with a pylon is NOT terrible advice. your reasoning for it is not that valid waste of 100 minerals, also you must stop probe production and as mentioned before.. YOU DON'T NEED TO WALLOFF completely! why would you want to waste a ton of minerals? if the zerglings break down one building and trust me if theres enough of them they will massacre your three zealots | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 24 2011 14:11 akalarry wrote: what's wrong with walling? that replay is a perfect example of one way you can do it successfully... i rewatched the mc vs idra game. he makes a second gate when he scouts it and walls with a pylon. he lets the pylon finish, and chornoboosts out 3 zealots, then he brings a couple probes, kills his own pylon and attacks at the choke with 3 zealots and mineral-walked surrounding probes. a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings). 2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals. | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
On August 24 2011 14:13 michaelhasanalias wrote: a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings). 2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals. he canceled his gateway, it only costs 75 minerals. and what's 75 minerals when you can hold off a 6 pool, you pretty much automatically win. you're already up 14-15 harvesters to 6-7. you're making too big a deal of not walling. also since he walled off, he got about an extra 35 seconds of mining time. he pulled 7 probes. if he danced with those 7 probes 35 seconds earlier, then that's about 120 minerals he lost. instead he lost only 75 from canceling that gateway, so he would have made 35 more minerals at the end. and he was arguably safer as well. cliffs: you lose 75 minerals from canceling gateway, but you gain 120 minerals from having your probes come off the line 35 seconds later. | ||
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Qxz
Canada189 Posts
This usually does a lot of damage if the protoss overreacts and goes forge first. It fails miserably if they just get a 12 gate then core, chronoboost out a zealot and defend with that and a few probes. The worst part of that is that they just proceed undelayed with their build, while I clearly delayed a lot of stuff to attack that early. Actually, let me ask a question: with the build I'm doing, if the protoss defends as mentionned and I do 0 damage, am I so far behind that I can't hope to hold a 4-gate follow-up? I just died to that today but my macro was bad, so I don't know. | ||
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BuddhaMonk
781 Posts
If the zerg targets the pylon trying to get in right away, pull a handful of probes along with your zealot to keep the zerglings at the small choke. Or if the zerg only targets the gateways, wait as long as possible and destroy your own pylon with the 2 zealots you should have by this point and again in the small area 2 zealots will be able to destroy all the lings quite easily. I find this response is the best because you won't lose much mining time at all, which means that you can generally get your gas and core without too much delay. If you let the zerglings into your base, you risk losing a lot of mining time on your probes which is more harmful than losing a pylon. See MC doing this defense vs Idra: | ||
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susySquark
United States1692 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QAgXb.jpg) You build your first gateway on the part of your walloff where the zealot needs to stand, NOT against the corner. The only adjustment you need to make is put the gateway tight against the edge of the ramp, and then move it one block away for the zealot. The second 3x3 building, be it an emergency 2nd gate or a cyber, fits nice and snug between your first gateway and the ramp, creating the traditional wall. This way, your zealot comes out RIGHT where he needs to be. Everyone elses advice about probe / pylon blocking is true, but this helps you pull off the defense much easier. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
On August 24 2011 14:04 Ju!cy wrote: always scout the zerg at 9 and place your warpgate at 12. that way you shouldn't have problems. also if he just did hatch first im certain you would be able to punish that if you just hug your mineralline zerglings are probably going to attack the other buildings. that can be quite annoying and if you don't kill them off you will be swarmed. But what if you scout him in the last position and it's too late? On August 24 2011 14:47 susySquark wrote: This has become standard in my play ever since the second week of playing: You build your first gateway on the part of your walloff where the zealot needs to stand, NOT against the corner. The only adjustment you need to make is put the gateway tight against the edge of the ramp, and then move it one block away for the zealot. The second 3x3 building, be it an emergency 2nd gate or a cyber, fits nice and snug between your first gateway and the ramp, creating the traditional wall. This way, your zealot comes out RIGHT where he needs to be. Everyone elses advice about probe / pylon blocking is true, but this helps you pull off the defense much easier. The problem with this is you need to scout at 9, and if it's a big map and/or you scout him in the last position, it will be too late. On August 24 2011 14:13 michaelhasanalias wrote: a perfect probe dance defense will cost you almost no mineral losses, whereas a wall guarantees you will lose structures, possibly a vital one, becuase your zealot will spawn behind your wall rather than in front (no room due to lings). 2-gating is a stylistic choice, but the defense boils down to the probe dance defense of the pylon(s) and nothing else. That extra gateway only delayed the beginning of the probe dance and it cost him 150 minerals. Totally agree, and nice mini-guide on defending the 6 pool (you should probably actually make a [G] thread haha, it is well organized information already). Also, remember that even though you lose mining time pulling probes off, the difference between cutting probes to build more buildings at your wall vs delaying mining time but having a few more probes in the first few minutes is EXTREMELY huge. | ||
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StarcracK
Canada49 Posts
if u were getting gas cancel it. if already made then don't mine from it. (important) Build wall with gateway, forge and pylon. Chronoboost zealot to kill some of the zerglings and buy time for cannons because your forge isn't quite done yet this time.(make sure zealot pops outside of your base) . Transition: get gas and cyber while chronoboosting 2 or 3 zealots because the zerg most likely will get hatchery. U won't kill zerg with these zealots but it will force them to make lings instead of drones. After that do whatever you like. Stargate is good also 4 gate is good if u feel that u forced enough lings from the zerg.  | ||
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
Covers the basics. Really once you understand the basics you can tailor the actual drop-at-what-supply to what you see fit. | ||
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saltywaffles
United States91 Posts
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Zariel
Australia1285 Posts
2) Immediate chrono of first zealot. Crucial to your survival. Chrono the second one too! 3) Pulling of probes. like others have said 8 is a good number. They are to buy you time for the zealot to come out. 4) Don't let your zealot get surrounded (ie: a dishonorable death). Use a few probes (4 is enough) to accompany zealot. 5) Continue to build probes, zealots. Add second gate, gas, core etc... | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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tar
Germany991 Posts
On August 24 2011 16:20 CecilSunkure wrote: Very simple: http://drop.sc/27718 watch this replay and then watch the idra vs mc game! I've been facing a lot of 6 pools lately (almost as many as in early season I) and this defense is the one response that will hold off the rush and give u aggressive options to follow up while not relying on almost flawless micro - let's be honest, until high masters, we usually don t have really good micro) - plz keep in mind that all this is only true if u r not intending to fastexpand though - You ask how so? Well, hear me out: So u go for a full wall-off with a forge up ur ramp. This means that the zerg can just happily get his early queen for injects and then drone up, expand and simply play a normal game usually beeing ahead of you economic wise, coz u can't really put on pressure for quite some time and u need to kill ur wall-in before moving down ur ramp (i.e. wasting minerals) If you go for a one gate core build with a building pylon as temporary wall off - as suggested in this thread - the zerg will simply kill ur gate! and then u r left with 2 zealots max and no production with lings streaming in,slowly grinding u down. if a 6/7 pooling zerg goes immediately for ur gate it will go down and with 0 gates, it'll be GG. And what about walling in at ur nexus? This one is tough. Yes it works, but you have to be on top of everything, have good micro and perfect decision making. White-Ra obviously can pull that off with ease, I, however, doubt that is true for most of the players reading this thread looking for help against 6 pools. Just yesterday there was a game in the IPL S3 qualifiers between col.catz and a toss who did this White-Ra opening vs catz' 7 pool. He struggled hard to hold on, showed some amazing micro and still was left behind seriously hurt after catz decided to end the aggression. I guess it all depends on how good u think u r and how good u r in reality | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead). The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead. As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit. TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On August 24 2011 16:20 CecilSunkure wrote: Very simple: http://drop.sc/27718 <3 cecil so much great replay | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On August 24 2011 16:20 CecilSunkure wrote: Very simple: http://drop.sc/27718 Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital). If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly. The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure. On August 24 2011 21:46 Sbrubbles wrote: It's amazing how there are always TONS of people disagreeing about how to defend this. I 8 pool almost 100% of the time on shakuras and xelnaga and make only 8 lings. It's almost always worth it, when I don't mess up my micro. Mid masters here, so my micro isn't good but it doesn't suck either. I have to say, the SAFEST response there is is walling off with a forge and pylon and laying down a single cannon (heck, you can even skimp on the zealot). If the 8 pool timing is scouted, this will protect all your buildings and you'll be mostly fine (and slightly ahead). The BEST response I've seen was a Protoss who went two gate pylon and once he had 2 zealots he brought a few probes and killed his own pylon. The gateways managed to survive and he was slightly ahead. As for everyone who says you don't have to deviate or even wall off, just dance your probes around: this is oh so very wrong. The Zerg can run around in your base FOREVER if you let him in without a struggle. You may be able to dance your probes around, but guess what, the zerg can micro as well. Since probes are way faster than zealots, he can run a bit, engage the probes, run away when the zealot arrives. Or if you split your probes, the lings just go after the other half and just pick-off-and-run without engaging your zealots. Also, remember that mining time lost adds up quite a bit. TL DR: As a Zerg, I say the best response I've seen was a 2 gate busting his own pylon wall with 2 zealots and a few probes. The safest, of course, if gate-forge-wall off. If you let the Zerg in, you're dead. The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player. Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end. No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them. In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed. On August 24 2011 15:22 Danglars wrote: [G] How to Stop a 6 Pool ZvP Covers the basics. Really once you understand the basics you can tailor the actual drop-at-what-supply to what you see fit. It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy. This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp. This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool. There are other ways of dealing with 6pool that are less cost-effective, potentially higher risk AND rely on you scouting your opponent to succeed. If you, the studious protoss player, want to rely on scouting to stop a 6pool, you will continue to lose some games against it. If instead you rely on some very straightforward micro (click toward lings, click away if they try to attack you, repeat for 20-30 seconds if necessary), you will never lose to another 6pool on ladder or in any tournament. tl;dr - as I and a few other players have pointed out already, probe dancing is the most efficient way to deal with 6pool because it doesn't rely on you scouting your opponent first and requires minimal APM and standard build order deviation. | ||
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ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:34 michaelhasanalias wrote: Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital). If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly. The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure. The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player. Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end. No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them. In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed. It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy. This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp. This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool. I really feel that we need to note one thing: On large last scout = death maps its best to build close. On smaller maps where you can scout in time the 2 gate at ramp is good. Especially because you can send the zealots to zergs base on these maps in particular so 2 gating is very good in this situation. Larger maps = build close Smaller maps = build at ramp and 2 gate defend if scouting is possible in time. | ||
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Lazy_89
United States87 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On August 24 2011 22:34 michaelhasanalias wrote: Not sure if you uploaded the right replay, but this was against a 7 pool, and your response is dependent upon scouting the zerg player, who you find immediately. So you're replay is essentially the best-case scenario for a protoss player in a build that differs from 6pool in that it can potentially continuously reinforce (making the wall-off vital). If you scout your opponent, a 2-gate wall-off can certainly succeed, but as I said it relies on you scouting your opponent and/or deviating from your standard build, making this a less desirable option than simply probe dancing to buy time. And against a 6pool, you're going to lose one gateway and perhaps both if the zerg player is smart about his zerglings attacking and you don't wall correctly. The APM requirement for probe dancing is very low, and probably anyone with a basic understanding of unit micro can easily execute it with practice (so, probably gold league or higher). Meanwhile, the on-the-fly critical thinking skills required to place multiple structures to create a fast wall, and then create the right engagement scenario once this wall is breached takes some higher order thinking, costs more, and in my opinion increases the risk for failure. The entire content of your post deals with 8-pool which differs from 6-pool in that it can't be continually reinforced, and a zealot should already be in place to seal a wall. Walling in that situation is a requirement because the zerg player could pump unending lings, whereas there is a hard cutoff of 14 (and a 4 minute timer) for a 6-pooling player. Probe dance is very minimal on micro and only needs to buy time until the second zealot is chrono'd out (about 30 seconds at most if you 14-gated). If you 6-pooled, you have less than 30 seconds to kill one pylon and/or kill at least 8-10 probes (depending on how many lings you made) or you lose the game almost outright. You simply don't have the luxury to to any dancing with the opponent's workers/zealot(s), and you don't have enough numbers to engage them outright without coming out on the losing end. No protoss player should ever be actually attacking your lings unless you a-move them and stop microing them. In the situation you mention (again, different from the OP) a wall-off is required, but again, in the situation you mention, a cookie-cutter 1-gate core zealot-wall should have been completed. It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy. This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp. This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool. There are other ways of dealing with 6pool that are less cost-effective, potentially higher risk AND rely on you scouting your opponent to succeed. If you, the studious protoss player, want to rely on scouting to stop a 6pool, you will continue to lose some games against it. If instead you rely on some very straightforward micro (click toward lings, click away if they try to attack you, repeat for 20-30 seconds if necessary), you will never lose to another 6pool on ladder or in any tournament. tl;dr - as I and a few other players have pointed out already, probe dancing is the most efficient way to deal with 6pool because it doesn't rely on you scouting your opponent first and requires minimal APM and standard build order deviation. The 8 pool arives before the chronoed zealot comes out from a 12 gate. Also, why wouldn't I be able to consistently reinforce? How would you know I'm not going all-in (until its too late)? | ||
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CecilSunkure
United States2829 Posts
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MeanMike
15 Posts
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QTIP.
United States2113 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:54 akalarry wrote: because you can stop a 6 pool with just walling normally. place a second gate where you normally place a core, block with a second pylon, and chronoboost out zealots. cancel the pylon at the last second and u should have 3 zealots (? haven't done this in forever) to easily clean up. mc did it in a game on xel naga caverns a while ago. Timings are wrong here. You will not have 3 zealots out. You cannot cancel your pylon. You need to let the pylon complete, and take your initial zealot and a few probes and destroy the pylon from the inside. You push out and kill the lings with 1 Zealot 4-5 probes. (Otherwise one of your gateways will die). | ||
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TheResidentEvil
United States991 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
It's really important to note that this thread is a year old, and the game has changed quite a bit since then. Further, this thread you linked was inspired by fruitdealer's 6pool win on kulas ravine (a larger map that you can't scout) and I recommend that you watch the game here: http://www.gomtv.net/2010gslopens1/vod/1137 In this game, Inca does not actually pull any probes to defend his pylon, and so Fruitdealer is able to destroy it and win the game. Had he pulled just 6-8 probes he would have had no trouble dealing with this. Instead, he panicked, pulled 100% of his probes after the pylon's shields were down, and that was the end of the game. Inca didn't know how to respond, and so these two guys nobly spent the better part of a day on ladder trying to devise a way to stop 6pool without losing probes on the shortest map at the time (Steppes of War). Their solution REQUIRES you to scout the opponent and react, which is a fundamental flaw in their strategy. This used to be a great way of stopping 6-pools when smaller maps dominated the ladder and being unable to scout your opponent in time was unheard of. The maps and (more importantly) the rush distances are quite a bit larger now than they were in the beginning of season 1, and you can't rely on scouting your opponent's 6-pool before the lings hit your ramp. Because you can't guarantee foreknowledge of the 6pool, you must work from the operating assumption that you may not know about it before 2:45 game time when the lings are about to come up your ramp. This is one of the main reasons that probe dancing is the best and most cost-efficient way to deal with 6-pool. Which is exactly why I said the basics. Or, rather, the basics of one approach (small 2player map, it's scouted). You make a compelling case for probe dancing 8-10 until victory. Hooray, glad you offer that. I say if you're 9 scouting and see it (1st pos and 2nd) the Gateway - Forge - Cannon walloff is at least equal (zealots fit out after dpsing cannon made between gateway and forge, see thread. If you don't scout it, probe dance away. Good advice. EDIT: Watched all GSL 1 matches live in the dead of night =). | ||
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ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
Cheers! (whitera blocks the ramp with the second and third gates) | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
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RTudoRR
Romania216 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:18 xlava wrote: After you scout it wall off with a forge + gateway combination. Build a pylon to seal the hole and a cannon behind it. You will probably have to build other things to seal up hole the lings make but you cannot: I repeat cannot hold with just zealots, because the lings will kill the pylon before you get anything out. keep the bad advice to yourself only please. U either 2gate and chrono zealots or if you;re doing FFE u block with 1gate+pylon while putting a cannon in a safe place | ||
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ThatGuy89
United Kingdom1968 Posts
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firehand101
Australia3152 Posts
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors5/vod/66054 | ||
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Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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Sanguinarius
United States3427 Posts
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itstheTB
61 Posts
a) if the Zerg 6-pools you, you'll scout it in time and build pylon+cannon at base. Yes, you'll loose 1 pylon 1 forge at expand but remember that the Zerg hasn't build enough drones so he is still behind in economy. The cannon will defend the zerglings pretty well at your main. b) if the Zerg doesnt 6-pool you, congratulations, you just successfully fast expanded and got a good economic start. so forge is the way, wether you do it at expansion or in base | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
If you started off gate first then you simply want to wall your front and chrono zealots asap, usually you'll have to stop probes at 16 to make sure you can do this right away. Walling off with another gate (or cyber if you're in time) and then a pylon is usually a good thing. Sometimes the zerg will go back to droning and just try to kill all your walling buildings at the same time, in that case you will need to start killing one of your own buildings and just break out yourself. If you started gate first adding a forge is not good, it's not neccesary and won't actually do much if they get to break past the wall. If they revert to droning a forge + cannon on the high ground won't realy help you to expand either. Either way you should always be able to counter a 6 pool quite well as long as you get to scout it in time (around the 15 probe mark). On a large 4p map this usually means you have 2/3rd chance to scout it in time if you 9 scout. I usually just take the risk. You can ofcourse send out a second scout probe if you didnt find the zerg in the first spot but since 6 pool is so rare i don't think it's generally worth it (unless your opponent is called July perhaps). | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
It's pretty ludicrous how much trouble we're going through for such a simple minded build. | ||
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Ada
Germany150 Posts
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LuckedOut
77 Posts
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Asmodeusz
193 Posts
Since then i understand why WhiteRa doesn't wall with first buildings. Now i wish for the zergs to 6 pool me on maps like this | ||
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quaffle
United States249 Posts
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BlindSC2
United Kingdom435 Posts
Its essentially talking about placing buildings back towards the nexus instead of walling EDIT: And it turned out to be very long so it's good it's in spoilers anyway + Show Spoiler + I personally do what used to be a WhiteRa-esque building placement, with my first pylon/gateway at the nexus/behind the mineral line, and then my second pylon/cyber core at the ramp, finishing with my second gate whenever necessary I have never lost to a <11 pool with this without a clear micro/scouting error on my part. I scout after gateway (unless FFE-ing on Taldarim, Shakuras or Antigua). Part of what make this so great is that when people see that there is no wall, they often just make all zerglings and never drone up thinking that I mistakenly thought they were Terran or something. Once they are held off and have 6-7-8-9-whatever drones left, easy win. You place your first pylon nestled in a choke formed by you minerals, your gas or wherever so that as few lings would be able to hit it as possible. An example of this would be on xelnaga, spawning at the north, placing the pylon between your eastwards gas and the edge of the base. You then place the gateway touching the pylon just south of it, so only one face of the pylon is accessible by lings (and they have to walk all the way around the mineral line to get to it) You then place your second pylon/cyber at the ramp as usual. Depending on when you scout it will dictate what happens next. I'll use Typhon peaks as an example, since that is 4 player with reasonable rush distances. You scout first (after gateway), you'll see it before you place your second pylon, however if you were planning to, you would have already spent your 3rd chronoboost on the nexus. Put the pylon back to support your gateway, in a spot that forces a choke for your zealot if possible. Place cyber core similarly as well. If you see more than 6 lings, and feel like you must, pull off gas either once you have 100 gas or just leave 1 probe on. This is so that you can immediately start warp gate and a stalker once you feel safe. Just keep the zealot in your mineral line, if the lings try to come in to fight, use the zealot + 3-4 closest probes to fend them off, mineral walking probes which are being hit. Once you are safe (for me this is usually with 2 zealots+a stalker), you can make your 3rd/4th pylon at the ramp ready to wall normally with gates 2/3. Lets say you scout him at the second position, your second pylon will just be finishing up or may be completely finished (depending on 15/16 pylon, and specifics to your scouting, you should always pull back your scouting probe the second you see no creep, don't let it walk all the way into the base and back out, that wastes precious seconds). If it hasn't finished, cancel it and replace it back at the gateway as before. You should cancel the probe in production and start a zealot, taking you to 18/18. If the pylon has finished, just go to 19/26 and pull 5-6 probes to ward the zerglings off the pylon until zealots come out, start cyber core back towards nexus after 1-2 zealots as before. If for some reason the pylon is going to go down, say you didn't react in time or he splits his lings (and is producing >6), replace it back at the nexus. Use the minerals pooled to start your WG and a preliminary 3rd pylon. Keep ~175 for when the pylon finishes so you can start probes production and a zealot/stalker again (situational) once the pylon finishes Say you scout him last, your cyber core will have been started. This one relies entirely on whether he is producing >6 lings or not. Keep your scouting probe near his hatchery, and check what comes out of the larvae. If its only 6 lings, keep the cyber core there, you will have to pull 6-7 probes along with your soon to finish zealot and ward the lings off. Once your second zealot finishes, you can send the probes back to mine. He will run around with lings and make a dart for a probe in the mineral line every now and then, just pull the 2-3 outer probes into the middle of the mineral line and you'll be fine until the stalker comes out. Say he makes >6 lings (and you scout him last), you'll have to cancel the cyber core, replace it back towards the nexus, and likely a preliminary 3rd pylon there as well, since your second will very likely fall. You may want a second gate (definitely if you get supply capped), but otherwise do the same as before, keep your zealots in the mineral line. One game a situation came about that he produced something like ~16 lings with ~10 left and kept me contained with my 2 zealots and a stalker in my mineral line. He was being very cautious to not follow my stalker back into the mineral line and doing an all round good job, he was starting to drone up again and eventually started a hatch. I was content sitting in my mineral line, I had gateways coming up around my mineral line, with WG almost done. I simply 4gated him with a proxxy pylon set up by my scouting probe, making 4 zealots at a time. ******************* This building placement taxes your micro and decision making far more than normal responses will, but I definitely believe it is better, largely because you can often make them fully commit to all lings and at the point unless you have a major cock up you win with a late 4gate. If he does say a 14 gas/pool, or simliar, you can play as normal, just getting up your second gateway earlier than usual if he pokes with >4 lings If he goes hatch first, I'm toying around with not walling in at the top of the ramp at all, just placing gates 2 and 3 on the low ground forming a wall for my expo. No wall makes it far easier if you're caught off guard by drops/nydus/mutas and don't have something like blink yet, because units can come back into your base far more quickly than if they are forced back single file | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On August 27 2011 23:57 Asmodeusz wrote: I recently played against random on Xel'naga Caverns and didn't wall, scouted at 9, gate at 13, when i noticed his early pool i cancelled the gateway, build a forge and 2 cannons right away. His lings arrived a little before cannons were finished so i microed my probes around and won the game easly (he fallowed with roaches on one base, which i easly defended with 2 more cannons and firsts stalkers that came out) and won the game. Since then i understand why WhiteRa doesn't wall with first buildings. Now i wish for the zergs to 6 pool me on maps like this Why would he try to roach rush you on one base when he saw you made 2 cannons T_T | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
I've copied for you the text of a post I made a while ago detailing perfect 6 pool defense as protoss, and it DOES NOT RELY ON SCOUTING. You need to remove that part of the counter from your brain and your decision-making right now. ======================== On August 24 2011 14:08 michaelhasanalias wrote: There have been several threads on this subject already just in the last month, so try to search as a few other people have already told you. "6pool" or "6 pool" is all you need to search for. This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all. Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool: - I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool. - I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously). - I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games. How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core opener This advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself. - 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core. - When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8. - The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need. - When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement. - When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes. - Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement. This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately. tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
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tuestresfat
2555 Posts
On September 26 2011 03:37 Skyro wrote: What are people's opinions on the best followup after the common situation of defending a 6 pool after a FFE, where you mostly just lose the pylon and forge on the low ground? You'll be ahead on probes but behind on tech. i don't think that's a very common situation at all. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Dbla08
United States211 Posts
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DiaBoLuS
Germany1638 Posts
if you start forge expo, pylon and cannon in your mineral line. they lings will be there before the cannon is complete, so min trick the probes around | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On September 26 2011 04:01 Acritter wrote: I've always found that corner-walling with a Gateway and a Forge and filling the gap with a Cannon tends to work rather well. It offers a pretty much perfect defense, and it's delusional to think that the Zerg is ahead if you spend 300 minerals (they've already spent 150 for the Zerglings, now how much is lost in mining time?). The Cannon can also just be killed at any point in time. Your scouting Probe ought to still be alive unless you're absolutely terrible, and it's easy to hide a proxy Pylon and then scout them to see their follow-up. If they go for economy, you put on pre-WG pressure. If they go for some kind of bust, get a Sentry or two and win. Either way, transition into 4gate works pretty well. The Forge also allows for +1 timings, if you feel like it, as well as a safe expansion. upgrade on the forge is a dead give away that its a +1 4 gate. I just skip zerglings altogether and go roaches. And I know your attack will hit at roughly 7:30 or later based on when your cyber finishes (i have overlord in your base until you have a stalker out) the solution is to do 2x gates, build a pylon, pull some probes right as your zealot is coming out and cancel the pylon. Plug the gap with probes+zealot and chrono zealots. Go attack once you have 3 zealots if he only made 6 lings, or go attack with 5 if he made more than 6 lings. If he makes lings you have the econ advantage and equal army. If he makes drones your zealots can cancel his hatch or keep him on 1 base. And after you can get gas and go dt or get some more gates for 4-5 gate allin. | ||
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Geovu
Estonia1344 Posts
Too bad there is too much misinformation and awful advice in this thread for me to tell which is the actual response. Not to mention there is a very mixed opinion even on the advice that seems legit, I have no idea wtf I am supposed to do. I wish someone with a legit 100% winrate vs 6 pool would just post the be all end all in a thread separate to this one as a [G]uide.  | ||
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
On September 26 2011 03:59 tuestresfat wrote: i don't think that's a very common situation at all. The proper response to 6-pool from a FFE opening if you can't wall-off your natural in time (either due to scouting it too late or the map layout) is to build a pylon and cannon in your mineral line, thus sacrificing your pylon and forge. | ||
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thePROtoss
United States18 Posts
honestly to block a 6pool you don't even need to have a forge, just do a normal wall off and chronoboost out your first zealot make sure to addanother gateway or a cybercore to create a choke, and if you need time fill the choke with one or two probes until the zealot comes out, then just micro and kill the lings. if your gateway hasn't finished then just complete the wall off with pylons and more gateways if you need to, or micro your workers. Also you'll mostlikely have double the amount of probes then lings it shouldn't be that hard to deal with, without losing more than 3 probes at most. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On September 26 2011 11:58 thePROtoss wrote: Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool? Are you saying diamonds should be able to deal with 6 pool easily? Cuz I can beat mid masters like 75% of the time with a 6 pool cuz they dont wall correctly or if they over-commit and i only make 6 lings. | ||
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PimpWilly
United States228 Posts
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 26 2011 09:32 Geovu wrote: I have never been able to reliably win vs 6 pool T.T Too bad there is too much misinformation and awful advice in this thread for me to tell which is the actual response. Not to mention there is a very mixed opinion even on the advice that seems legit, I have no idea wtf I am supposed to do. I wish someone with a legit 100% winrate vs 6 pool would just post the be all end all in a thread separate to this one as a [G]uide. Did you scroll up and read my post? Because every protoss player I've ever beaten and told that same information to has never lost to another 6 pool again. There are other ways to reliably beat 6 pool from 1-gate core openings but they all require scouting and are (in my opinion) more difficult to execute than just probe dancing. I thought about posting it as a guide but I didn't feel like it was warranted. I can assure you that probe dancing and NOT WALLING OFF is definitively the most efficient and consistently reliable way to crush 6-pool each and every time. (And if you FFE, do what someone else mentions which is sac the forge and pylon and just make one cannon in your mineral line. Almost never should you attempt to seal a wall at your natural because you will die most of the time a slow and painful death.) I highly recommend finding someone to practice against 6 pool with, because probe dancing is extremely simple and easy to learn to master, requiring not more than a couple games at most. On September 26 2011 13:33 PimpWilly wrote: Code S players have problem with 6 pool, as it's become a standard opener in PvZ to get Z into an advantageous mid game. Sure you don't die to a 6 pool, but so far even Pros can't 100% defend it into an advantage. So it's a real threat. I'm sorry, but this is poisonous thinking and misleading. You're right that it has become something of a viable option for zerg players to use, but it has a clear and definitive solution that doesn't require scouting, and has existed for a long time. It's viable because of thinking like yours, where protoss players believe they have to scout it in order to stop it, and so they chalk up losses as "coin-flippy" when its simply poor reaction that loses the game. There aren't many instances of 6 pool being used in ZvP in code S, but one of the "classic" ones is fruitdealer v inca on kulas ravine from one of the first gsl open seasons, and that was single-handedly one of the most awful cases of 6-pool defense in the world. Another was hongun's defense against july last season on terminus, and hongun responded almost as pitifully, although he was far ahead after the initial engagement. The only reason he lost that game is because july is a master of deception and his followup caught hongun off guard. On September 26 2011 11:58 thePROtoss wrote: Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool? honestly to block a 6pool you don't even need to have a forge, just do a normal wall off and chronoboost out your first zealot make sure to addanother gateway or a cybercore to create a choke, and if you need time fill the choke with one or two probes until the zealot comes out, then just micro and kill the lings. if your gateway hasn't finished then just complete the wall off with pylons and more gateways if you need to, or micro your workers. Also you'll mostlikely have double the amount of probes then lings it shouldn't be that hard to deal with, without losing more than 3 probes at most. You would lose versus a good 6-pooler almost 100% of the time if you did this. When you seal a wall, it guarantees that your gateway and core will die simultaneously while your zealot spawns helplessly in the back. And when that gateway goes down it will be 14 zerglings to 1 zealot and 16-18 probes. Posts like this are precisely why 6 pool works up and into grandmaster league on NA and EU ladders. | ||
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HuK
Canada1591 Posts
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AmericanUmlaut
Germany2577 Posts
On September 26 2011 19:58 HuK wrote: 16 nexus then micro your probes like a boss Ah yes, the Chuck Norris Gambit. | ||
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-Cyrus-
United States318 Posts
All you need to do when you scout a 6 pool is to immediately stop building probes, build a forge to complete your wall off, chrono out 1 zealot, and as soon as that forge drops, lay ONE cannon between your gateway and forge. Also, be sure to pull one probe to your wall so that you can completely wall off in the case that you zealot doesn't get out in time (which is 99% of the time depending on the map and when you scout it). A lot of the time you will be forces to cancel and re-warp in buildings if something goes wrong. The key, however, is just getting 1 cannon up. Then you can proceed to play a standard game where you are ahead. I wouldn't suggest 4-gating as a follow up to this as you have already dumped into a forge and thus your warpgate timing is fucked. A +1 timing attack is really good, however. | ||
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PolSC2
United States634 Posts
On September 26 2011 20:39 -Trippin- wrote: Forge is the safest and easiest way to hold it off. Don't listen to all of the retards who are saying not to build one. All you need to do when you scout a 6 pool is to immediately stop building probes, build a forge to complete your wall off, chrono out 1 zealot, and as soon as that forge drops, lay ONE cannon between your gateway and forge. Also, be sure to pull one probe to your wall so that you can completely wall off in the case that you zealot doesn't get out in time (which is 99% of the time depending on the map and when you scout it). A lot of the time you will be forces to cancel and re-warp in buildings if something goes wrong. The key, however, is just getting 1 cannon up. Then you can proceed to play a standard game where you are ahead. I wouldn't suggest 4-gating as a follow up to this as you have already dumped into a forge and thus your warpgate timing is fucked. A +1 timing attack is really good, however. Can you not read? Stop spreading misinformation. On August 24 2011 14:08 michaelhasanalias wrote: There have been several threads on this subject already just in the last month, so try to search as a few other people have already told you. "6pool" or "6 pool" is all you need to search for. Show nested quote + On August 24 2011 13:35 memcpy wrote: I 6 pool a lot and this is one of the best defenses I've seen someone do. I think every protoss player who struggles with 6 pool should watch this. MMXMoto vs Rumudiez on The Shattered Temple -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- This replay is good and bad, because it shows exactly what you need to do to stop a 6pool BUT he opts to complete a wall and that's NOT what you want to do at all. Here's a list of what NOT to do or think vs. 6pool: - I have to scout it or I'm going to lose. He's in last position and I scouted him last so that's why I lost. To stop a 6pool you DO NOT NEED TO SCOUT beforehand. You don't need to open 10gate, and you don't need to know about the lings except when they are in front of your ramp. Scouting early buys you more time, but if you react properly, you need exactly no build order deviation (from standard 1-gate core) in order to counter 6pool. - I must complete my wall to keep the lings out and buy time for units. This is terrible advice. The APM and mineral investment required to constantly continue to wall will almost always end in a later death. Even the top players in the world that do this do so inappropriately except on the largest maps. You don't want to wall because it traps your zealot INSIDE, meaning your gateway/wall MUST die for you to even engage your opponent. Never, EVER wall. EVER. (Seriously). - I have to drop a forge and make cannons to defend this! False. If you really want to drop a forge, a TL user found a great way to do it which involves canceling your gateway, then making forge and gate followed by a cannon to seal the wall. This depends on you scouting your opponent's 6pool though and seals you in, thereby making it necessarily an inefficient option. You won't always be able to scout the 6pool coming, so if you rely on this as your "counter" then you will stil lose games. How to stop a 6pool every time without scouting or deviating from 1-gate core opener This advice is coming from a mid-master zerg who frequently 6-pools (~30-50% of zvp) on ladder. I lose to this and only this response unless I screw my micro up myself. - 9 pylon, 12 gate, etc into 1-gate core. - When you see lings on your ramp, pull ~8-10 probes and chrono your zealot (NEVER SKIP THIS ZEALOT IN ANY PvZ BUILD). Pull more probes if you feel less confident in your micro, and fewer (but no fewer than 8) if you feel more confident. I recommend pulling only 8. - The Zerg player MUST kill your pylon powering your gateway, so if you decide to place your 2nd pylon at your gateway instead of near your nexus (or some other location) you've already dealt a serious blow to this attack. Knowing this, use your probes to defend that pylon while your zealot comes out. NEVER ATTACK the zerglings, unless they are right clicked on the pylon. You want to delay and NOT get surrounded or lose a single probe. This dance will buy you all the time you need. - When your first zealot pops, you need to make a decision. If your probe dance has been successful (and it's very easy to execute, just run up to the zerg player, then retreat when he tries to engage the probes), you've almost won. You can choose to either engage the lings straight on, and there will be 10-12 by this time (a maximum of 14 in the most all-in variants which will get to your base ~3:45), or you can wait for your 2nd zealot to be chrono'd out. You can drop your core if you want because you'll have the money, but make sure to continue probe production for insurance if you have a bad engagement. - When your 2nd zealot comes out, you'll be facing a maximum of 14 lings with 8-10 probes and 2 zealots. Make sure your zealot sticks with your probes and dances, and take any free lings he gives you without engaging the entire group. NEVER wall off, and only engage once your 2nd zealot is out unless you really have a great angle with your zealot or surround with your probes. - Lastly, if he's stupid enough to try and just directly engage your probes, run them around in a circle and wait for your zealot. a-moving even with a surround will sustain heavy losses, and if he didn't commit to 6pool (that is, he made 6,7 drone before the lings, and then droned up) killing 6 lings with a probe surround in the mineral line will put you almost even with him. You will see ling reinforcements every 15 seconds up to a maximum of 14 lings (that is, 4 additional sets of lings over the following minute after you see the initial 6). If you chose to probe surround lings in your mineral line and you never saw any extra lings, assume you are even or slightly behind unless you have more than 10 probes after the engagement. This may seem like a lot of information to consider during this, but I promise you it's very easy for anyone with a rudimentary grasp of micro to execute and defend against. You will never lose a game if you can probe dance appropriately. tl;dr - NEVER wall, pull 8 probes when you see the lings, chrono your zealot, and constantly threaten the lings on your pylon without ever engaging. | ||
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Champ24
177 Posts
On September 25 2011 20:22 michaelhasanalias wrote: The game should have ended some minutes after the 6 pool. That the game went on long enough to see ultras means your 6 pool defense was awful... and I say this constructively because you're looking at this game from the wrong perspective. It's not "how to I hold off this followup" it's "why was my 6 pool defense so bad?" I've copied for you the text of a post I made a while ago detailing perfect 6 pool defense as protoss, and it DOES NOT RELY ON SCOUTING. You need to remove that part of the counter from your brain and your decision-making right now. Have a good replay of the defense? I've done forge cannon every time and I'm basically convinced I'm wrong. One other question too, if the Zerg opts to ignore the pylon and aims for the mineral line, is it best to dance with all the probes until the zealot is finished? Or mineral stack a probe surround? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 26 2011 21:23 Champ24 wrote: Have a good replay of the defense? I've done forge cannon every time and I'm basically convinced I'm wrong. One other question too, if the Zerg opts to ignore the pylon and aims for the mineral line, is it best to dance with all the probes until the zealot is finished? Or mineral stack a probe surround? The reason I haven't made that post into an actual guide is because I don't 6-pool all that much (I often do when I ladder against protoss, but I don't ladder all that much), and then I do 6-pool, protoss almost always responds poorly. However, here's a great replay example for you to look at:  vs  준몽님 vs Michael ![[image loading]](http://www.topreplays.com/img/layout/download.png) (It's worth noting that P 10-gates in this replay, which you don't need to do and I'd personally discourage. I have a replay somewhere of a 14-gate holding off 6pool with decent probe dancing. The point is that once the "cycle" of dancing has been initiated, you can do it ad infinitum until you have the necessary defenses (two zealots) to deal with the lings. If he doesn't reinforce, just one zealot is fine.) He can't engage your probes directly because you'll have 15-18 versus his 6, so he has to buy time for his reinforcements (up to 14 lings by ~3:45). The only option zerg has is to target down that forward pylon if you don't wall. When you see people recommend to just use probes and surround lings, this is what they are referring to. It's because whoever 6-pooled them was bad enough to a-move into the probe line. Always dance if you can, unless zerg is literally just a-moving into your line in which case you can surround. If your opponent is bad enough to go directly for your mineral line with only 6 lings, you can try to mineral walk if you think he's serious about engaging. Almost always he is just looking to pick at you, and this won't work. Mineral walk if you have to or dance if you have to, and try to buy time. When you mineral walk, your goal is just to pick off a stray ling here and there. Another reason engaging probes in the mineral line is bad is because all those probes will cost-efficiently deal with those zerglings and leave you ahead if you can get a good surround. The safest thing to do though is just pull your probes to your zealot and continue to chrono your gateway while returning some of your probes to mine. If you do engage him and have a bad concave/surround, instead of losing 1-2 probes you may lose 8-10, and go from being very far ahead to tied up. | ||
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Lazy_89
United States87 Posts
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tehemperorer
United States2183 Posts
Thanks goes to iSTime/WhiteRa for this; I have a lot of difficulty in PvZ and literally pray for a 6pool every time because it's so easy to fight off. | ||
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evilduky666
United States101 Posts
To answer your op however, if you wall off with a forge and gateway and then build a cannon behind your wall it defends against 6 pool almost 100% of the time. Edit: Oh and you should build your second pylon by your min line just in case they break through your wall you can make a cannon at your min line. | ||
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pezzaperry
142 Posts
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thePROtoss
United States18 Posts
On September 26 2011 11:58 thePROtoss wrote: Did i read the post correctly? diamond rank 10 having problems with 6pool? honestly to block a 6pool you don't even need to have a forge, just do a normal wall off and chronoboost out your first zealot make sure to addanother gateway or a cybercore to create a choke, and if you need time fill the choke with one or two probes until the zealot comes out, then just micro and kill the lings. if your gateway hasn't finished then just complete the wall off with pylons and more gateways if you need to, or micro your workers. Also you'll mostlikely have double the amount of probes then lings it shouldn't be that hard to deal with, without losing more than 3 probes at most. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You would lose versus a good 6-pooler almost 100% of the time if you did this. When you seal a wall, it guarantees that your gateway and core will die simultaneously while your zealot spawns helplessly in the back. And when that gateway goes down it will be 14 zerglings to 1 zealot and 16-18 probes. Posts like this are precisely why 6 pool works up and into grandmaster league on NA and EU ladders uhm yeah i've been playing on my friend's acc in diamond league, as protoss and i've been 6pooled before, and blocking a 6pool with 1 zealot and with about a dozen probes is no problem at all, and creating a choke is probably one of the smartest things to do so idk what you're talking about with the "100% loss" and the "14 lings to 1 zealot" if you just make a choke from the start you won't have that problem, because when you get 6pooled, it's not 14lings its about one wave of 6 lings, which is not that hard to block with a choke, and if the lings decide to attack and your gateway isn't finish so you have to resort to a full wall off you simply kill off one of your own gateways or pylons and make sure that there's still a choke and hit with a mix of workers and zealots, it's honestly not that hard. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On August 24 2011 13:51 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I will be quoting myself from another 6 pool thread. And I'm still wondering why more people don't do this. There is no reason not to, really. A forge + cannon is a waste and like some said if he just makes 6 lings and drones immediately (which is what I do when i play zerg and 6 pool or 7 pool) then the game will not be necessarily in your favor just by defending the 6 lings. Your gas tech will be significantly behind, u will have to kill ur pylon or such later on to leave your base, and the zerg should be able to catch up on econ/drones very easily (8-9 drones depending if 6 pool or 7 pool by time 6 lings start to build, then as you drone and your lings hit his base you should be at 12-14 drones while the protoss usually will have 15 ish, but even less if he cut in order to get forge+canon out; also get a queen and gas or a hatch or such). THIS IS THE WAY! except...one question: if the zerg goes hatch first, and I want to match it with 1 gate FE, I always feel vulnerable of zerglings run-buys without a wall at ramp. What should I do about this? Is this just irrational fear? Would you claim that 2 gate expand is fine? (Even though in my experience it does not seem so...) If you 2 gate expand, what kind of pressure do you put on the zerg? | ||
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
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tuho12345
4482 Posts
On September 27 2011 15:20 Quochobao wrote: THIS IS THE WAY! except...one question: if the zerg goes hatch first, and I want to match it with 1 gate FE, I always feel vulnerable of zerglings run-buys without a wall at ramp. What should I do about this? Is this just irrational fear? Would you claim that 2 gate expand is fine? (Even though in my experience it does not seem so...) If you 2 gate expand, what kind of pressure do you put on the zerg? 1 gates expand always need to be fast, otherwise get the forge and cannon up be fore 2nd and 3rd gates. 2 gates expand you should watch MC's show. Where he get 1 stalkers first and the rest is sentries. You could pressure him. Or chronoboost 2-4 zealots to do serious damage right away. | ||
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JASONB0URNE
Australia22 Posts
- Bulid your pylon/gateway hugging your nexus. - Chronoboost your zealots. - Pull probes to dance/fight with your zealot. - KEEP CALM <---- most important! I get behind everytime I forge/gateway/cannon block and half the time it doesn't work anyway because you have reacted too slow (scouting the last position on a large map for example). | ||
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HornyHydra
Taiwan222 Posts
12 Gate Cannon (you may/may not have to cut probes to wall and cannon) If you scout a 6 pool with your scout from the forge, just wall off and build a cannon you can keep a probe outside of your wall to check if the 6 pool is continuing or if they try to drone. From here you can either +1Attack 4Gate or expand (I prefer the 4Gate because it should kill them outright). The delayed timing WG timing doesn't matter because they've 6 pooled. Since you're diamond I think it's safe to assume you can sort of wing the timings on gas with the 10 forge. If you 10 forge and don't scout a 6 pool, you can save the forge for upgrades later as your build will be delayed by 150 minerals only. Edit: I think this way is better if you aren't confident if your micro, as it's not very micro intensive to plop a few buildings down. If you can micro, you can just do the zealot probe "dance" posters above are suggesting. | ||
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Quochobao
United States350 Posts
On September 27 2011 15:28 tuho12345 wrote: 1 gates expand always need to be fast, otherwise get the forge and cannon up be fore 2nd and 3rd gates. 2 gates expand you should watch MC's show. Where he get 1 stalkers first and the rest is sentries. You could pressure him. Or chronoboost 2-4 zealots to do serious damage right away. How can 1 stalker and all sentries deal pressure against zergling? =) Z can engage, tempt force field, then run away. 1 2 spine crawlers would be adequate too, wouldn't they? | ||
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michaelhasanalias
Korea (South)1231 Posts
On September 27 2011 15:41 JASONB0URNE wrote: To stop a 6 pool: - Bulid your pylon/gateway hugging your nexus. - Chronoboost your zealots. - Pull probes to dance/fight with your zealot. - KEEP CALM <---- most important! I get behind everytime I forge/gateway/cannon block and half the time it doesn't work anyway because you have reacted too slow (scouting the last position on a large map for example). I can't speak from experience because I don't do early pool vs toss other than 6 pool... but wouldn't this be absolutely awful against anything other than a 6pool? For example, some 7 pools and all 8 pools can continuously reinforce, and wouldn't you just die if you didn't eventually wall off? The idea behind putting your pylong/gate/etc at your nexus is to defend against 6 pool and then get your wall up with 2/3 gate or 2gate/core, yes? Any opener like this would need to be solid against the gamut of zerg openers, and are you sure that's the case? You would do this in every situation on every map where you don't FFE vs zerg? | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10325 Posts
On September 27 2011 15:20 Quochobao wrote: THIS IS THE WAY! except...one question: if the zerg goes hatch first, and I want to match it with 1 gate FE, I always feel vulnerable of zerglings run-buys without a wall at ramp. What should I do about this? Is this just irrational fear? Would you claim that 2 gate expand is fine? (Even though in my experience it does not seem so...) If you 2 gate expand, what kind of pressure do you put on the zerg? I'm not familiar with the 2 gate sorry, I don't know enough about protoss. About the first part, first you need to consider what map it is; if it's wide, then just wall off with your buildings to cover the ramp to your nexus; put a canon hugging the nexus so that it can shoot lings that run around and attack your probes, while also covering the 2 buildings in front of it vs Roaches (forge + gate) or at least so that any roach attack would be significantly slowed (perhaps there would only be 1 matrix where a roach can stand to attack without being hit by a canon; that is fine). You can cut workers if needed, you can determine this with your scouting probe. You can also chrono boost out a zealot ASAP and pull probes to the ramp, mineral walking back the hurt ones. The forge/gate should be hugging your ramp if possible, reducing the entrance to it to 1-2 zealots width. On September 28 2011 10:52 michaelhasanalias wrote: I can't speak from experience because I don't do early pool vs toss other than 6 pool... but wouldn't this be absolutely awful against anything other than a 6pool? For example, some 7 pools and all 8 pools can continuously reinforce, and wouldn't you just die if you didn't eventually wall off? The idea behind putting your pylong/gate/etc at your nexus is to defend against 6 pool and then get your wall up with 2/3 gate or 2gate/core, yes? Any opener like this would need to be solid against the gamut of zerg openers, and are you sure that's the case? You would do this in every situation on every map where you don't FFE vs zerg? I've never had trouble vs 6 pool like that, but I'm not sure about 7 and 8 pool. However, I don't try to wall off at the ramp, I just tech to stalkers asap and kite back and forth (for 6 pool). | ||
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