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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 11 2011 03:40 XupinatoR wrote:
Well, i have started playing again SC2 and I have the same problem as the OP. Litterally 9 out of 10 zergs goes for a 6 pool. Even if they only kill 1 probe, they will expand since i can't put preassure, and they will be ahead because I haven't been mining for ages.
I mean, i can understant going 9 out of 10 times for a 6 pool if you are playing for money and you feel u really cant win otherwise. But when you play ladder? It's the most pathetic thing i have ever seen in this game.
And the people that says: "just build your wall earlier". My probes don't scout at the speed of light... I think economic 6pools are probably a legit opening. By that I mean they put you in at worst an even position going into the midgame.
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Why are you going FFE if you can't hold zerg allins when going FFE and 90% of the zergs you meet go allin? 6pool is not even viable against gateway openings.
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So if you play slightly safer, you'll be winning 89% of your ladder matches... damn i wish sc2 was that ez for me.
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Remeber what Huk said at dreamhack when he defeated Moon's six pool. He said that if he didn't scout Moon when he did, he would have sent another probe to scout the other positions. aka having 2 probes scout when the first one fails so that you are sure to find them in 2 checks. You must do this many cases when you are forge fast expanding.
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On October 11 2011 04:16 .Sic. wrote:
So if you play slightly safer, you'll be winning 89% of your ladder matches... damn i wish sc2 was that ez for me.
SO true. 6 pool is not by any means OP and if you get 6 pooled 90% of the game, then open with a gateway and you win.
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Yeah, when you do the forge fast-expand, which is by some even considered an "economical cheese". You have to look out for them cheeses! :p
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Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this?
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On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this?
It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on
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On October 11 2011 06:17 tehemperorer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this? It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on
How exactly is my way worse than making a pylon and forge at natural, and then losing them to lings?
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When your 9 scout doesn't find the zerg in the 1st scouted base, drop forge at 13 and then scout with that probe the 3rd base. Almost every pro does it ...
you should also drop a 15 pylon in base if you don't scout him at the 2nd expansion with your 9scout
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they should make you CREATE OVERLORD before pool FOR EXAMPLE, DEPOT BEFOR RAX AND PYLON BEFORE GATEWAY
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On October 11 2011 06:33 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 06:17 tehemperorer wrote:On October 11 2011 05:51 eugalp wrote:
Question:
Completely theorycrafting here but would it be possible to do pylon/forge in main, and then pylon/ cannon below ramp in your natural, after scouting? If he six pools, cancel pylon and lose nothing (ok, 25 minerals, as opposed to 250 if you lose pylon/forge). You can also start your cannon earlier. If he makes pool on 14 or later, in the worst case your nexus is delayed by that second pylon (which you usually make anyway).
The only drawbacks are, 1 - you will be at a disadvantage if he does something like an 8 pool, since you can't expand. 2- if he plays standard, you have one fewer building to make a wall with, and might need to make an early second gateway.
Has anyone tried this? It would be really bad. If you forge/pylon your main, then put a pylon at lower ramp, then a 6 pool basically forces you to cancel pylon right? Therefore the only cannon you can place will go in main, but you can only move out after you make a gateway and 2 zealots (assuming he only made 6 lings which is usually not the case). Imagine a scenario where the lings just camp outside your base and you either waiting to make the gate and enough zealots or you cannon hopping down to your natural; not a good scenario. Time constraints dictate that you place your pylon forge at front of natural on a map that you FFE on How exactly is my way worse than making a pylon and forge at natural, and then losing them to lings?
If you know a six pool is coming at the very start of the game then there are multiple ways to crush it, yours might work but its not ideal because --> if he is NOT 6 pooling (which you can't scout until after your forge placement is decided) then you are behind with your version of the opening.
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
I'm confused by a lot of the protoss in this thread that seem to think that 6lings in your base is a loss. Lings are so weak w/o speed that good probe micro should be able to keep you in decent shape with minimal losses until you put a cannon up in the mineral line.
If you don't have the micro to not sustain losses against slow lings than you probably shouldn't use an opener that's leaves you having to do that against a 6 pool. If you are getting cheesed repeatedly and dieing than for crying out loud don't open with such greedy build and play safer until you do.
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On September 28 2011 16:21 Nyter wrote:
Oh sorry, I wasn't clear, I always do my FFE as the following:
13 forge
(pool before hatch):
15 cannon
16 gate
16 pylon
17 nexus
I think that's kinda overdoing it. Just a cannon will help you hold against most early rushes. I'd just skip the gate, get a 16 pylon, then a nexus. If you want to be extra safe, put another cannon down AFTER the nexus.
And don't FFE in maps with 2 or very wide entrances to your natural. Hence why you're always much safer going for a Sentry expand on maps like Metalopolis or Typhon Peaks (since we're talking about ladder).
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On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later.
Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.
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On October 11 2011 03:40 XupinatoR wrote:
Well, i have started playing again SC2 and I have the same problem as the OP. Litterally 9 out of 10 zergs goes for a 6 pool. Even if they only kill 1 probe, they will expand since i can't put preassure, and they will be ahead because I haven't been mining for ages.
I mean, i can understant going 9 out of 10 times for a 6 pool if you are playing for money and you feel u really cant win otherwise. But when you play ladder? It's the most pathetic thing i have ever seen in this game.
And the people that says: "just build your wall earlier". My probes don't scout at the speed of light...
Well, if 9 out of 10 zerg do it, you don't even need to scout. Just do something that wins against 6pool, and you automatically get 90% winrate versus zerg even if it loses without any chance against the last 10%. Don't know what exactly that would be, but i assume that just about everything should work just fine if you start with a 10gate. If you can't play your build safely against cheese (which should be possible with good micro), then don't play that build if you get cheesed in 9/10 of your games.
On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:
Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.
The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.
You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later. Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.
I am pretty sure that every usual pool timing, not only early pools, should be able to prevent you from getting down your ramp if you start with a forge on the highground. Or it will cost you at least another cannon on the high ground guarding the low-ground one while it is warping in.
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On October 05 2011 09:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._> Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid. Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ON5fj.png) http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/btDHX.png) http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ZrTz2.png) http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/p29J1.png) http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/crawz.png) http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map). The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line. If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon. If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die. edit: thought it was worth adding this here... I've played 15 games over the past year where I've 6 pooled Shakuras Plateau ZvP vs FFE where protoss attempts to wall (from platinum to GM range): 12 wins, 3 loss 6 times protoss successfully completed a wall 3 times I don't focus fire the correct building and lost the game because of it.
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
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On October 11 2011 07:20 Simberto wrote:
I am pretty sure that every usual pool timing, not only early pools, should be able to prevent you from getting down your ramp if you start with a forge on the highground. Or it will cost you at least another cannon on the high ground guarding the low-ground one while it is warping in.
A usual pool timing cannot even prevent me from making pylons and cannons below HIS ramp, let alone mine. Pretty sure you are wrong here.
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On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
Not enough minerals
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On October 11 2011 07:44 Gobbles wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:
Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here? Not enough minerals
But 1 gate is cheaper than 2 pylons though...
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On October 11 2011 07:36 Skyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2011 09:24 michaelhasanalias wrote:On October 03 2011 04:46 askTeivospy wrote:On September 30 2011 20:51 -Dustin- wrote:On September 30 2011 13:26 Oreo7 wrote:On September 30 2011 13:17 saltessio wrote:On September 28 2011 16:41 RockIronrod wrote:
Wait, so when Zerg FE's they're greedy, but when Protoss does it Zerg is overpowered? I am a little puzzled by this too. I'm not an expert by any means, but if protoss players decide before scouting that they are going for one-base play, is a 6-pool a problem? Zergs hatch first, this protoss is forging first and then depending on zerg spawn location, occasionally auto losing. If a zerg were to pool first then hatch and then lose based on spawn location, they'd have my sympathy. You can't really make a comparison. I feel no sympathy for you. 6Pool is weak I face it all the time in ZvZ I defend it by making nothing but Drones. Workers competely destroy any kind of early pool, You just mieral walk and surround them and its pretty much GG right there even if you lose some of yor probes. You can also pull back the low hp ones so you take no loses its not that hard but most people don't even bother. Atleast Toss have the luxury of cannons in their mineral lines we don't have that its Drones or nothing.(We can wait for Lings to pop but thats only on 6Pool Drone allin other wise Drones will hold it) Dance around(Pull back when shields are gone as you regenerate faster than Lings do.) as you don't have creep in your main the Lings can't catch our Probes and make a a cannon/Chrono boost a Zealot and its gg right there. Follow up with 2 Gate/4 Gate and the Zerg can't defend it. Unless they 9Pooled like I do then you will get compeltely stomped. I don't see how you say if you Pool>Hatch and then we can't lose, If we pool>hatch and you wall our expo and cannons as Lings pop its GG. We had to change from Hatch first to Pool first just because Toss started Forge first and if you start getting 6Pooled more then change up your build we had to do it. Play protoss and try to defend a 6 pool with your ideas. you'll fall behind in tech/pylons especially if you walled your rampimo best way to counter a 6 pool is to skip gas, get second gateway and mass zealots. getting a forge sets you way behind and is auto lose in some cases ._> Considering that's the opposite of what he just advocated, I don't see how this response is even valid. Anyway, here are some mid-master replays on 6pool vs 12 forge FE on shakuras plateau: http://drop.sc/40746 --> 12 forge, walled with cannon, easy win http://drop.sc/40747 --> 12 forge, lings didn't focus the forward forge, loss (should have been an easy win) http://drop.sc/40748 --> 12 forge (this is the standard wall in my opinion), easy win http://drop.sc/40749 --> 12 forge L-wall, lings didn't focus side pylons, loss (should have been easy win) http://drop.sc/40750 --> 12 forge L-wall, easy win Essentially, all five of these games should have been easy wins, of which three actually were. This is a 12 forge that goes down blindly in the cases when he doesn't scout me first, with full probe cutting once he scouts the 6 pool. My build order each time was 6 pool, 10 lings, double extractor trick into 4 more lings, scout on 1:39-1:42 (specific to this map). The wall fails (or should have failed) in every one of these games. I still believe there are no FFE wall placements that will sustain against a well-executed 6 pool on this map. The counter has and will continue to be simply making a pylon and cannon in your mineral line. If you watch closely though, especially in game 5, there are some things a protoss could probably do to survive this with minimal probe losses with very clever backup pylon placement and partial walling with probes/etc. But all of this is so much more difficult to execute than simply placing a pylon in your mineral line followed by a cannon. If you FFE on this map, scout a 6 pool, and then try to wall instead of pylon/cannoning your mineral line, expect to die. edit: thought it was worth adding this here... I've played 15 games over the past year where I've 6 pooled Shakuras Plateau ZvP vs FFE where protoss attempts to wall (from platinum to GM range): 12 wins, 3 loss 6 times protoss successfully completed a wall 3 times I don't focus fire the correct building and lost the game because of it. Why don't you wall-off with a forge + 2 gates rather than forge + gate + 2 pylons? Am I missing something here?
Better yet, why not simply pull ~6 probes and hold position with them in the gap the destroyed building leaves? Cannon is fully operational, should easily be able to kill the lings before they manually focus down the probes. You can then re-wall, throw down a Nexus, and be way ahead.
On the other hand, putting a Cannon in your mineral line leaves you way behind on tech, and a Zerg with a Queen out catches up in worker count very quickly.
On TDA, I kind of think it's better to do what Oz did against Curious in Code A finals tonight. That is, build your pylon and Forge in your main choke, then a second pylon at the natural choke, and two cannons there before a Nexus. Since TDA has no ramp, trying to 1 base there is nearly suicidal, so there's really no alternative.
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EPT
