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[D] Is 6 pool overpowerd? - Page 15

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Nothingtosay
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States875 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-10 23:39:53
October 10 2011 23:39 GMT
#281
Tasteless and Artosis put it best. Six pool seems too good on "forge" maps "(Tal'darim, belshir, etc). Maps that are so big or so open that anything other than FFE can lead to you easily getting out macro'd because you can never safely pressure zerg(on one base). Against FFE 6 leaves you atleast even with protoss because of the precautions that are taken once scouted even if no probes die.
[QUOTE][B]On October 16 2011 13:00 Anihc wrote:[/B] No, you're the one who's wrong. Nothingtosay got it right.[/QUOTE]:3
FairForever
Profile Joined February 2011
Canada2392 Posts
October 11 2011 00:23 GMT
#282
On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:


Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.

The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.

You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later.
Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.


Umm that's actually a pretty big sacrifice for safety... you can sac the forge and pylon and be pretty close to even.

You have one huge hole in your analysis. If you put the first pylon at your main, you DO NOT have a pylon at your front until way later (most FFE builds get a late 2nd pylon). So if facing an 11 overpool or a 13 pool with the first four lings sent to your base... your'e stuck. You essentially can't place that second pylon because his lings are outside. They can either go into your base and cause havoc or just prevent you from walling off or putting down your nexus.
eugalp
Profile Joined August 2011
United States203 Posts
October 11 2011 00:56 GMT
#283
On October 11 2011 09:23 FairForever wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 11 2011 07:12 eugalp wrote:
On October 11 2011 06:52 Darth Caedus wrote:


Why behind you ask? Because once you take your natural you are lacking pieces in your wall to hold things like ling-roach pressure that could come into your natural. Traditional FFE builds are designed to be able to hold those pushes and be able to get ahead economically.

The OP was asking for a way to FFE that doesn't die to 6pool but could obviously put him in a good situation against other builds. Your solution might solve the 6pool, but fails as the game progresses.

You are only missing one piece in your wall - the forge. You will not be THAT far behind if you just make another gateway instead, which you will need later on anyway. A lot of builds require or include a second gateway regardless (Kiwikaki's build for example). Also if it is just a roach ling pressure (not an all in) then it doesn't come until later.
Again, yes, you make a small (IMO) sacrifice for safety. You can't have everything.


Umm that's actually a pretty big sacrifice for safety... you can sac the forge and pylon and be pretty close to even.

You have one huge hole in your analysis. If you put the first pylon at your main, you DO NOT have a pylon at your front until way later (most FFE builds get a late 2nd pylon). So if facing an 11 overpool or a 13 pool with the first four lings sent to your base... your'e stuck. You essentially can't place that second pylon because his lings are outside. They can either go into your base and cause havoc or just prevent you from walling off or putting down your nexus.

I did mention that an early (but not 6) pool will have an advantage because they will be able to deny your exp. Testing needs to be done to see which pools exactly will be able to stop the expand. I strongly suspect that 13 pool will be too late, especially on big maps like TDA. You may need an 11 pool or earlier. But then you are cutting workers.

Anyway, those pool timings are not exactly common. The problem is that being only "pretty close to even" vs a build like a 6 pool that makes a HUGE sacrifice in economy is not where you want to be.
"More GG more skill" - White-Ra
willyallthewei
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States265 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 17:17:09
October 25 2011 17:14 GMT
#284
i have a question for anyone who's willing to answer it. If its 6 pool vs. 13/15 forge and I get the cannon up in my mineral line, what is the economical next step? It seems i'm way behind if I put down 2 cannons, and if I keep to 1, the ling prevent me from getting either of my gasses until i can get enough zealots up (then he can switch to some type of tech that necessitates sentries for defense such as baneling/roach). If he continually commits to ling pressure, should i go pylon--> cannon in mineral line --> 2 gateways --> chrono double zealot, add core --> double gas when zealots pop?

I am having a lot of issues coming out even or ahead after surviving the initial rush.

Does anyone know the standard gas timings after the cannon is in the mineral line so that I can be safe against continual pressure while not falling behind on tech/economy?


Banelings as a followup I'm finding very difficult to respond to as well, especially if he doesn't show all his lings and I'm deceived into believing that he is droning up/teching behind the 6 pool, i have no way to scout without running my zealots out into the open where the lings can surround.

I'm totally dumbfounded by the 6 pool when i FFE; wish someone would make a guide on standard defense of this cheese.
"never give up, never surrender"
freetgy
Profile Joined November 2010
1720 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-25 17:42:04
October 25 2011 17:33 GMT
#285
a well executed 6 pool on maps that suit it, let Zerg play quite a good macro game if you don't deny his ways to transtion.

your first reaction to a 6 pool (after doing everything to defend it) is to hide your scouting probe well enough to scout a expansion, reinforcement, and drone count.

This information is important to decide what you need to do.
What is important for me was aways keep the economic lead on your side, meaning.
Build a second canon if needed, but your free to boost probes
Just make sure that you keep the economic lead that is essential to keep the pressure on the Zerg side after doing the all-in.

If he goes for an expansion you should be safe anyway, if he want to stay all-in by transitioning into another all-in, feel free to add additional structures keep you alive.
(if your opponent doesn't expect it you might try to counter canon rush him)

also don't forget, you can afford to trade 1:1 ressource wise against the zerg that is all-in because you have the economic lead. This means if you trade those zealots efficiently (minimum 1:1 ressource wise), he has to make a decision ultimately to reinforce or back out, which will work out for you.
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